Christianismus redivivus Christndom both un-christ'ned and new-christ'ned, or, that good old way of dipping and in-churching of men and women after faith and repentance professed, commonly (but not properly) called Anabaptism, vindicated ... : in five or six several systems containing a general answer ... : not onely a publick disputation for infant baptism managed by many ministers before thousands of people against this author ... : but also Mr. Baxters Scripture proofs are proved Scriptureless ... / by Samuel Fisher ... Fisher, Samuel, 1605-1665. 1655 Approx. 2761 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 325 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-11 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A39566 Wing F1049 ESTC R40901 19527817 ocm 19527817 109011 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. 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Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. [18], 632 [i.e. 628] p. Printed by Henry Hills, and are to be sold by Francis Smith at his shop ..., London : 1655. Errata: p. [4]. Numerous errors in paging. Reproduction of original in the Bodleian Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Infant baptism. Baptists -- Apologetic works. 2003-06 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-07 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-08 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2003-08 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Christianismus Redivivus , CHRISTNDOM Both un-christ'ned and new-christ'ned : OR , That good old way of Dipping and In-churching of Men and Women after Faith and Repentance professed , commonly ( but not properly ) called Anabaptism , vindicated by that two-edged Sword of the Spirit ( the Word of God ) from all kinde of Calumnies that are cast upon it , and Cavils that are made against it by the Rantizers on the one hand , and the Ranters on the other , and proved to be the onely true Baptism , and way of CHRIST . In five or six several Systems containing a General Answer , directed to No-body in particular . In which , Not onely A Publick Disputation for Infant-Baptism managed by many Ministers before thousands of People against this Author , who was then Respondent ( A False Account ( extant under the name of A True Account ) whereof , and their express Challenge to him to answer , or give the cause , gave good cause to him to undertake this Work ) is ( after a discovery of their True Account to be A true Counterfeit ) abundantly disproved , and their own Review of their own Arguments over again Reviewed and refuted , and their Talk about Toleration of Hereticks so Talk't with , that Toleration of them ( though not by Ministers in true Churches , yet ) by Magistrates in Civil States is manifested to be the minde of God ; But also Mr. Baxters Scripture proofs are proved Scriptureless , and the chief Arguments of Dr. Holmes , Dr. Featley , Mr. Marshall , Mr. Blake , Mr. Cook , Mr. Cotton , and many more that plead it in print or private Letters are Enervated , and indeed scarce Any-body that stands up for non-Baptizing and non-Churching , or for that Parish-Practice of Sprinkling and In-churching Infants is left unanswered . By Samuel Fisher M. A. and Pastor ( once ) of the Parish-Church ( but since ) of the true-Church of CHRIST , which is at Lydde in the County of Kent . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Acts 2.38 . & 8.12 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . LONDON , Printed by Henry Hills , and are to be sold by Francis Smith at his Shop in Flying Horse Court in Fleetstreet . 1655. Postscript . READER , SInce the first Impression of this Book , there is a Butter-fly flown abroad , that makes a fearfull fluttering among its own favorites for Infant-sprinkling from the hands of one Mr. Reading , with whom I once held a publick Dispute against it at Folston ( as is hinted to thee above in p. 231. & p. 308. ) in my reading of which Work of Mr. Reading had I attained to satisfaction , that our present way of Dipping Believers is the error , and their way of Infant-sprinkling the truth , thou shouldst have had my Recantation ; or had I seen it sending in any new supply of evidence ( not availing to my conviction ) in proof of theirs , and disproof of ours , thou might'st likely have seen from me some new supply of Relief , or new Reply to such new Repulses : but finding his to be but a new Book , for the most part furtively collected out of many old ones already routed , and that both in the Argumentative and Responsive part thereof ( as well that which relates more immediately to my self , as that which relates to the cause I stand up in , as managed by others ) there is Nil ferè dictum , quod non fuit tam contradictum , quàm dictum priùs ; wel nigh nothing spoken that was not both spoken , and spoken to before , by my self in this very Volume , in so much that had he perused it ( as he had engagement and advantage enough to do , it being extant in those parts where he lives almost a year before his own ) he might have seen his Book here answered before ere it appeared at the Press , and have sav'd himself the charges of the Impression , I resolved to supersede from any further medling with it , as judging it frivolous to fight afresh with every old Argument and Answer , that thrusts it self out onely in a new Harness . Howbeit among other of his misrepresentations of my Arguments , few or none of which are by him rightly represented ▪ I cannot but advertise thee of this as most notorious , in that p. 154. of his Book , ( whether in simplicity or subtilty I know not ) he suggests it unto thee for a truth that from this Proposition ( viz. ) the Parents to whom Peter spake , Acts 2.39 . were unbelievers then when he spake so to them , I inferred this conclusion , ( viz. ) that therefore the Gospel promise is not to believers and their children , and so busies himself in beating the air , and making good what none opposeth , for our opinion is this , which then also was my conclusion , ( viz. ) that therefore the Gospel promise is made not onely to believers and their children , but to unbelievers , and their children also , to whom it shall be made good too , as in time to come they shall believe , repent , and be baptized . Ex pede Herculem , by this little thou mayst see the whole lump , and how apt the man is to answer matters before he hath well heard them , which for any man to do ( saith Solomon ) is follie and shame unto him . And now since some know not what the meaning is of those three capital Letters , ( viz. ) PPP , CCC , SSS , &c. with which the title● given to the Clergy , whether true or surreptitious , are very often signed by me , but especially in this later part of the Book above , when I speak of the three kindes of Clergy-men altogether , ( viz. ) Papal , Prelatick and Presbyterian ; I signifie that this is to intimate unto thee how these three are the three PPParts of that great Citie BBBabylon , which reigneth over the Kings and Kingdoms of the earth , into which it stands divided before its fall , Rev. 16.19 . & 17.18 . Moreover I do thee to wit that what thou findest in the last part of this Book distinguished by the old English Character is word for word the last part of that Paedobaptistical Piece , which was put out about the Ashford Disputation , which Reading abstract from the rest , thou readest all that to a tittle , on which this last part is but a Paraphrase , to shew how the Ministers own good matter ( unmaskt ) is but a glass , wherein ( if they be not blinde ) they may easily see their own ill manners , and themselves who talk so much against Toleration of Hereticks and Schismaticks , to be more Heretical and Schismatical than those they call so . Finally , desiring thee to help thy own understanding in the Reading of this Book , in such places wherein the sense is clouded , by reason of such defects as fell out in the Printing , through male-correction of it at the Press , by this ensuing Rule of Direction ; I commend thee to the Lord and Rest Thine in Him SAM : FISHER . Errata . Epistle to the Reader p 4 l 15 r pugnandum . Praescript p 2 l 24 r quid verbis . p 3 l 21 dele if not . p 6 l 10 dele as . p 17 l 49 r when . p 21 l 46 r possible they might ly . p 23 l 30 r when he had . p 41 l 4 after sprinkling r which it rather mai●s and suppress the true Baptism which premi &c p 46 l 28 r the odd half . p 49 l 17 d and. p 54 l 10 r Vzziah to meddle . p 76 l 30 r inane l 37 r do no more . p 77 l 9 r more than . p 86 l 1 r ever . p 104 l 22 r Babist . p 110 l 24 r Baptist. p 116 l 5 for but it r that . p 134 l 44 r healing of bodily . p 135 l 39 d and. p 136 l 1 r more than of . p 140 l 35 r not at all . p 152 l 4 r requires . p 155 l 16 for which r when . p 162 l 46 r baptize . p 165 l 18 r as not . p 166 l 46 r deed . p 186 l 45 r and Grandchildren . p 194 l 32 dele to . p 206 l 54 for be can discip●ed r can possibly know when such children are first discipled except it be in their first Infancy , yet I tell him we know such children as well as others to be first discipled . p 207 l 5 r Impossible . p 215 l 31 r Judg of . p 219 little r tittle . p 220 l 30 were r we . p 224 l 53 r at a venture . p 233 l 19 r whose seed he is . p 237 l 15 r object you , l 24 r what through furniture your cause hath . p 246 l 6 is as r as is . p 269 l 27 seed r seal . p 276 l 5 , 6 r who never yet actually displeased him , l 19 r therefore , l 31 r doing good to any . p 306 l 3 r with d for . p 310 l 38 r Mar. 19. p 311 l 46 r opere operato● p 320 l 47 r scarce . p 325 l 23 might not excuse them . p 344 l 12 r not so plainly as you must . p 357 l 39 , 40 r our worthy Divines and especially M● . Baxter . p 362 l 40 r dexterity . p 379 l 47 , 48 r putting on no others . p 359 l 50 r bread for neither r not , l 51 r chearing . p 396 l 25 r with such niggardly . p 410 l 46 r expe●●us p 422 l 2 for had r and. p 423 l 32 r much mistaken . p 427 l 13 for though r as . p 445 l 18 d that with freedom on both sides . p 454 l 17 for as or r or as , l 26 r children were . p 459 l 16 r as to a l 33 r as well as he . p 462 l 40 r onely in the seed . p 473 l 14 r Acts 9.6 p 475 r Rom 6 3 4. Acts 19 p 47● l 39 r Iohn 1.33 . l 46 r Prov. 1.22 . p 478 l 1 d which , l 36 r my self to be . p 479 l 24 r Iohn 3.22 . p 485 for ( a ) r ( all ) p 499 for viz. r were not . p 518 l 40 r should not have been . p 524 l 34 r examen . p 526 l 24 r then from thence , l 3 r Rite of Baptism . p 527 l 36 r mouths . p 529 l 4 r any right . p 536 mar r u●riusqu● ▪ p 547 l 54 r Synagogues i. e. their own Countreys ( or . p 556 l 54 for might r night . p 562 l 24 r whose remove would pluck . p 578 l 51 r came at all . p 582 l 4 r such onely are , l 36 r if we ask . p 586 l 5 for yea r yet . p 590 l 28 r po●ui● . p 603 l 46 r you run . p 605 l 19 for by r but. p 612 l 15 r founded . p 616 l 46 r Satan . p 622 l 6 r cosu . in the Table p 4 l 18 for by r be . p 577 l 6 r is not to be obtained . TO THE HONEST HEARTED , unprejudiced Reader of these ensuing Systems , More especially to you my loving Country men of the County of Kent , Greeting , BELOVED Friends , and Brethren you have been earnest , and are now wellnigh hopelesse , and therefore by this time may possibly be ( for ought I know ) half angry Expectants of something or other from me in answer to that True Counterfeit ( so I call it ) of the Ashford Disputation ; A Pamphlet , so injurious ( not so much to me as the truth ) that t was provocation enough to the presse of itself , to one so clearly concerned in it as my self , but as if it were not , was a while after seconded by another : Neverthelesse , what evill surmises soever you have of my so long silence , as I dare not say I am altogether blamelesse , * so I dare say I am not altogether excuselesse in the businesse , for verily as t was little lesse then half a year after the Disputation before that Hasty Birth of theirs came to light , in which time it threatned the Country to come out upon it , and at last came ( out upon 't ) indeed , so was it little lesse then a quarter after the nativity of that trifle before I received , from the Publishers thereof , the copy of it , together with this ensuing Summons to let somewhat be seen in my own right , in which since it s declared that they would needs interpret my total silence as a giving of the cause , I stood , as strictly engaged so from thenceforth Irrevocably resolved ( being elsewise indifferent ) as the Lord should lend me strength , life , and leasure ( not in my own , but the Gospels Right , which now I saw must suffer , if I were silent ) to set upon this wearisom work , notwithstanding which resolution of mine , what by Partly my often avocations from home in way of service to the truth , there being ( if I may become a ●ool ●o far without offence , in satisfaction to such Churches as compel me to it by their unjust offences at my just absence from them as here to utter it ) no lesse then ten publique ( not to speak of Private ) Disputations , in which I have been actually interessed since that of Ashford , be sides publique preachings , other occasional meetings , and writings , Church visitings , and visitations of sick members , to whom I have been moved several times to move many miles in such junctures , when ( saving the pressingnesse of that case ) no other should have importund me to have stired an inch out of my own dores . Partly my own necessary occasions and outward affaires at home , which I am ( though but little ) yet to this day too much intangled in for a Souldier of Christ : Partly one long and tedious sicknesse which my God was pleased to exercise me with toward the dead of one winter * for almost a quarter together , so that I was in all that time , and somewhat more , neither capable to stir much without dores , nor do much within . Partly ( if not principally ) an earnest desire I had ( as deeming it not worth while to trouble the world , and travel throw the Presse with no more profitable a birth , then a bare contradiction to that Bawble of theirs , which doth more then sufficiently contradict it self , and a meer Nugatory Negation of a few false Affirmatives , that are made in that Account concerning my silly self and one poor particular disputation ) to stop more gaps with one bush , and to hand forth somthing more for publique use together with it , as I here have done , namely , not onely two entire Treatises , viz. Anti-rantism , and Anti-ranterism , both which bear little or no particular reference to the Ashford Disputation , but also very many usefull Animadversions of a number of lame Arguments , Empty Answers , absolue Absurdities , Babish Baflings , Sophistical shuffles , and clear Contradictions , sometimes to themselves . and often to each other in their carrying on of the same cause ( which are therefore the more remarkable ) that are in the books of their best Champions , * all which as it askt me no small time to tumble ore , to summon together , and enter in a new Treaty with , to see if I could yet possibly find cause to agree with , and fall back to them in the point of Infant baptism , before I struck a stroke against them with my pen , so when I could come to no accomodation by that last parly , but saw them all at odds among themselves , and consequently saw more occasion then ever to fall out with them afresh , it took me up much more time to encounter with them all , for so I was fain to do more or lesse occasionally , as I found them in their several works falling in to the help of the Ashford Disputants by the way : Finally partly the starting of fresh Hares ( I had almost said Foxes ) upon me whilest I was working to wearinesse in descrying the starting holes of the old ones , which occasioned , yea even necessitated me to take up and follow those new sents , unlesse I would rather suffer them to range up and down , and do mischief without putting on in the least measure to prevent them : more especially that Hasty birth of Mr. Baxters , which as well for the sake of some Friends , that commended it to my consideration , as for the sake of that deep delusion I saw the whole Country to be under by doting on it , I was constrained to speak ( as I have done at the end of Anti-rantism ) though succinctly , yet more distinctly to , then to any other . VVhat ( I say ) with these obstructions Partly , and some other also of another nature , I have been forced inevitably to presse your patience ( Dear Friends ) almost to death : wherupon I challenge you notwithstanding to forbear Murmurring and acting in such sullennesse , as , because the book came out no sooner , therupon to neglect it altogether : if my paines may not abate his displeasure , and ballance his patience , who is offended without a cause , for not hasting it out by the halves , as some ( for ought I see ) had rather I should have done , then tarried till I had done the tenth of what I intended . I desire that man , who ever he is , either to fry still in the fire of his own fretfull humour , or else to please himself , when he sees Good , without amends from me , who having disposed of this , that 's out , to the publique service as soon as I could well do it acceptably to God , whose providence hath hitherto prevented me , dare not disparage his acceptance of me so much , as , in what I have it , to ask forgivenesse from men : Its never long that comes at last , if withall it effect that in order to which it comes , and if you say , Bis , qui cito , he does indeed , that dispatches , I say Sat cito , si sat bene , soon enough , if well enough , or else too soon even yet : whether this present Bulk doth performe its errand so well or no , as to be worth your waiting so long for it , It s not for me to determine ; I leave it to your strictest examination , regardlesse utterly of any censure , whether yours , or theirs , to whom it beares strictest Relation , my business in it lying morewith God , then either them , or you ; wel knowing that he , who spends himself in thoughts of what others think of him & his , hath more pride then wit , and more time then grace and wisdome to improve it , let the work therefore stand or fall to its own Master , I le neither beg any mans good word for it , nor put it under any patronage , but Christs , from whom it came to me , and to whom together with all honour , thanks and praise for his assistance of me most unworthy creature in it I dedicate it back again . If any quarrel with the length of it now it is come , as some do in that it was so long ere it came , and ask why I have laid such a large and voluminous siege to so small and trivial a fort , such poor paper works , as might have been battered and taken in much lesse time , and with a far lesse train of Artillary then is here brought against the Ashford Disputation ? I desire them to understand , that howbeit the daring defiance thereof engaged me to make my first on set upon that petty Garrison , so that there is as it were a vein of dispute therewith continuing , and running ( for the most part ) throwout the whole Volume ; yet the battle is also with the main body of their worthies ( as I said before ) according as ( inter p●ignandum ) they have occasionally bin cessary to their relief . Secondly , Possession is eleven points of the twelve , in which respect , they being but defendants , and we now indeed ( as they say page the ●irst ) invading , or rather re-invading ( for they at first by their own invention brought innovation , and invasion upon the truth ) both them and the practise of their Church in the point of infant sprinkling , which are both praepossed already of all Christendome , and have now of a long time planted , seated , and settled themselves so firmly in the dark Cells of mens inmost consciences and affections , that it hath been and is not onely hatefull , but hazardous for any to storm them out , we go upon no small disadvantages , and so had need be more free of our shot then else we should be ; Intus existens facile prohibet alienum , a few within the walls may be a match to many that are yet without , how much more when the stormed are many to one of those that storm them , even four hundred and fifty of the rest to few of the Lords Elijahs . Thirdly , An ell too long is better than an inch too short : he that likes not the length hath enough of the same to make it shorter to himself when he pleases , and liberty from the Authour to look into as little of it as he lists . Fourthly if you find it not greater in quantity then in quality advantagious to the truth , it may welcome it self into reasonable mens affections , when such a short shuffle as that it relates to , may , without injury , be shut out of doors . If the title of it chance to trouble Any body , that shall not at all trouble me : for though the Ashford disputatation , which it mainly answers to , was assuredly penned by Some Body , yet No Body is pleased to own it , and therefore to him , even to No body , it was most meet to superscribe the answer . In a word , and to conclude ( for it were an unreasonable thing , & no less then to set my self upon a new score by wiping out the old one , if while I am excusing my self for detaining the book so long from you , I should detain you long from the book it self , now it is out , by a long Epistle ) what ere t is , heretis , if Every Body be free from the guilt of those errors and Heresies , those fopperies , and falsities , those dissembling shifts , and contradictions , ignorances and other evils that are here condemned , then No body shall have need to complain of it , for then it complains of No Body at all , but if Any Body suspects shrewdly that it speaks to him , it speaks to him indeed . Yours , and the Truths , SAMUEL FISHER . For Mr. Fisher. SIR , THESE short Collections of the Ashford Disputation had slept long enough , if your private letters had not awakned them by a too much slighting your opponents and their arguments . I know you have seen the thing long since , and heard the other day you intended a Vindicatition . The last Thursday there was a conference at Wadhurst in Sussex upon the like subject , where were more then one of your opponents at Ashford . This relation was objected to them among other things , as a Pamphlet injurious to your self , as neither setting down your answers truly , nor fully . This puts the Publisher upon a further work . Not an new thing upon the subject , but a desire of you ( if you give not the cause by your silence upon this Provocation ) to let something be seen in your own right , by which he may take occasion to clear himself about the publishing of this . To that purpose I was intreated to send you this Copy ; that you may not take advantage of those many faults , which through the negligence of the Printer are found in your former . Sir , I pray deal clearly and ingenuously , for you deal with such as your self in this , that their aim is onely Gods glory , and the discharge of their own consciences in vindication of the truth , suppressing heresie , reducing those who are gone , confirming those who are doubtful , and praying that God would give the assistance of his spirit to these ends . So resteth March 11. 1649. Your Friend R. M. An Epistolary praescript to Mr. R. M. and the rest of the Clergy that were present , and ( at their own choice ) president at the Disputation , whether Accountants , or Associates in answer to their expostulatory Provocation WORTHY SIRS , HAd your sleeping Disputation been some Lion , it had been better for me to have been asleep then to have Awakned it ( as it seemes I did ) by but two or three touches with my pen , but sith it is but a Fox spoiling ( as far as they are within its reach ) the Vine and her tender grapes , I am ( notwithstanding its majestical craft ) neither sorry , nor ashamed , nor afraid that I reacht it a rap , and rouz'd it into such a resolution towards the vindication of it self ; for I doubt not but hee , with whom it falls out afresh , even Truths Champion Christ Iesus , that true David , who wearied it once before , may possibly Master it again ( though by the same silly instrument , that he used then ( even a stone and sling in his hand ) so as thereby to awaken , if none of your selves ( as O Si , O Si ) yet many others ( as the first encounter did ) to come into the Vineyard , and cluster together with the Saints , who else happily would sleep still , so as to remain in that wast Forrest of Parish posture , wherein you Gentiles dwell : specially when they shall find that though we are a people small and despised , yet we keep Christs statutes , and cleave close to that primitive simplicity of the Gospel , from which all the CCClergy in the world , and their co-acted more then either truly collected , or ( for ought yet appears ) elected people , are most miserably stragled , and the best reformed Nations in all Christ'ndome , which yet passe with you ( qua tales ) for curant Churches , are to this very day estranged . Now Sirs , as to your Book , of which together with your Provocation to answer or yield you sent me a perfect copy , whether I had seen it before or no , I kindly thank you for it however , and have accordingly put forth this following Answer , in vindication not of my right ( for t were better for me to die , then not be under injury in the midst of innocency for the truth ; yea your book hath righted me more by wronging me in such wise as was obejected to you at Wadhurst , then if it had righted me indeed ) but of that truth from which by Heresie both you and the whole world , save a few that return , are departed , which let it live , as it must now , maugre malice it self , and then though I die for it , as I am unworthy to do , yet I trust to be no loser by the bargain , 2. As to those letters you speak of , which awakened your disputation into this Thing called the Account . 1. I must tell you that I know but one ( that is my self ) who did , and but one letter wherein I did at all make mention of your doings : If that be it ( as no doubt it is ) you were so exceptious at , as thereupon to betake your selves to vindication in so publike a way as the press , one would think you should have excepted , and acted principally in print against such matters in that my letter , as are of more generall and publique concernment , as lay the Ax to the root of your tree , as strike at the very standing of your Kingdome , and fight at the Ministerial Function of the whole Fraternity of you as false and fained , and not against such onely , as onely seem to savour of some sleightings of your single persons , and some ( not undue ) disrespects toward your disputings : but though there is so much in that letter of mine , as clears the whole CCClergy to be corrupt in the constitution of their Ministry , and congregations , and even so much truth , as you l never understand , whilst you go on to bark against the Moon , as you do , nor stand under the trial of within a while before either God or man ; yea though the Gentleman also , to whom I wrote , being one of quality then Partizing and Patronizing in your cause , did turn me over to your selves for satisfaction to the contrary * , whence it might very well be expected , when it was rumbled about that you were at the press , that you would have returned ●omething to that , rather then turn me off with no more then a few fragments of your old disputation , yet , all this notwithstanding , you touch not the main tenor of that my letter with the least of your fingers , save that you say in the preface of your book , you are disgraced by it , but shew it not . 2. Whereas you judge that you my Opponents , and your Arguments were too much sleighted in that my letter , I judge to this hour , that neither the one nor the other are sleighted below that weakness which was then , and is now much more discovered in your Account it self , insomuch that a man may well save himself the labour of making good what ere he saies in disparagement of your disputation , any otherwise then by sending him thither , where they may see by your own testimony of it , how meanly it was managed , though you have made the best side of your Arguments to stand outward , and the worst of your Antagonists Answers , yea Qui verbis opus est quum facta loquuntur ? if any believe not me affirming how poorly infant baptism was proved at Ashford , let him believe the work it self now extant , proclaiming it self weak , its argument's weak , for so the Thing called the True Account thereof doth , in word in its preface , and indeed in the residue , Litera scripta manet non ita verba diu . Litera sculpta manet not ita scripta diu . 3. As to the privacy of that my Rescription and Recrimination to the Gentleman you wot of , which you complain of , not onely in this your monitory missive to my self , but in your Preface also to the Reader , where you say your Aversaries in Private loaded your disputation with disgraces , as if you had been bob'd behind in some base way , and so secretly supplanted , that he who spake so diminutively of you and yours , must needs be ashamed that his words should ever see the light ; you know Sirs that my letter was not so private , but that it might have been made publique ( if you had pleased ) by your selves , who as you had a quarrel against it , so both had it amongst you , and free leave also from me ( of whom if you had had a mind to it , or any advantage by it . I am sure you would not have askt it ) to have prest it out in your service , with your own defence against it , the presse being also as open to your excusation , as my accusation . 4. If you ask me why , I reply not to the sole publisher of the Account , but addresse my self in way of blame to you all , even such as were no more then present at the disputation . I answer , 1. How to personate the chief publisher of your collections I kn●w not , for I know him not : or if I know him well enough for my self , yet I know not how to know him so well , as on my knowledge to notifie him to others : he hath chosen to be namelesse , whether to this end that he might be the more securely shameless in setting down or no , I will not say at any hand , but many a one will think so for all that : for my part since I saw it pleased him to hide himself , I was not disposed much to enquire after him , much lesse shall he be discovered for me , who can tell , from the time I first saw his work , whose finger it is not , more safely then I can yet , whose it is : for in such sense as some Scripture is , it s doubtlesse no finger of God , and though I am sure t is the finger of meer man , assisted by Satan , yet of what man in special , ( I confesse I have good ground to pay it with thinking ) I may not speak positively in print , unlesse I le speak upon bare hearsay , which I heed not . Secondly , if it were mainly the employment of one to gather things together , & compose them into one bulk , yet it seems plainly to be the joint issue of several mens brains , and to have been rak't out of more memories then one , and therefore well may you call them Collections , yea that not meerly one , but more then one had a hand in it , I am informed sufficiently to belief by the voice of the Baby-book it self , which speaking in some places plurally , but not any where singularly of its Parentage , little lesse then assures me of this , that howbeit there might be one prime penman of the Pamphlet , or whoere it was that thrust it through the presse , yet the minds of more men , yea more Ministers then one is sounded forth in it , yea of such as were but Auditors at the Disputation , whose sense both of it , and of its efficacy upon the people is said in your Account to be so unanimous , that they resolved together with the rest to declare their sense of it in their several congregations , and oppose the growth of Anabaptism , as t is cal'd , in their respective flocks , which since it hath been done by them too , accordingly as was then agreed , and whether if not all , or at lest a pluralty of those Priests , who before laid their heads together to betray the truth of God , did not since compare their notes together to bely it , whether birds of a Feather did not flock together to give their several influences toward this hotch-potch relation , t is more 〈◊〉 ( if any of you can clear your selves of it do ) then I can clear any of you of at all , save the Scotchman of Kenington● who at Folston disclaimed his having any hand in it : But should that be more then I have warrand to be sure of , yet however I am certain of this , that either it is the sense of you all , or else some of you have the more wrong , whilst the book is so curiously composed , that it may seem to be the Ministers book , and the Arguments that are set down in it , be they never so silly and inconsequent , are fathered upon you all in grosse , recorded as the Ministers arguments , though proceeding but from one Ministers mouth , and not few follies and absurd things , whilst the Penman dances in the clouds himself , are related as spoken , and done by the Ministers , which the Ministers may very well , and will once find time to be ashamed of : yet you seem to take all that 's put upon you to your selves , not any of you entring your dissent : whilst therefore you seem so jointly to justifie him , that puts you all upon the score in the Report , you cannot justly condemn him , who Arrests you all for it , in the Reply . 5. As to these present Returnes of mine to that threefold thing you have thrust forth , I am experienced by your wonted Demeanor toward such as trouble you too much with truth , how much more Odium then ever I must come under thereby among both your selves and your Admirers ; but hic murus ahaeneus esto nil conscire sibi , nulla pallescere culpa . This verily is no lesse then a Brazen fence to me against all your censures and exceptions , that even herein , as well as in in other things for which you condemn me , I have exercised my self so , as to keep a conscience void of offence , and that toward both God and man. Yea if I have not dealt clearly , as you wish me to do , i. e. according as the truth is indeed , then in the very way of waiting upon God onely , singly , seriously , and with many tears for the understanding of it , in which way he , that cannot lie , hath assured me he will be found , my conscience is most wonderfully clouded ; therefore see that you see , if you see . But if I have not dealt ingenuously i. e. as candidly as so crooked a generation as the CCClergy is , that do alwayes erre in their hearts , and have not known Christs wayes , can justly claim from any , but some Cowardly Clawback , that cares not to be unfaithful in his carriage both toward God and them , then the Lord deal so graciously with us all , as to humble both you under a sanctified sight of such sins as you are as truly guilty of , as here reproved for , and me under my miscarriage in reproving . 6. Finally Sirs , having briefly premised these things , and praying earnestly that our Lord Iesus Christ would vouchsafe you all that holy spirit of his , even the spirit of promise , which ( I fear ) you are more strangers to then you are aware of , and , in order thereunto , adjuring you to repent from your dead works , to arise and be baptized and wash away your sins , calling on the name of the Lord , so resteth , as to this Epistle , Your truly loving , though as little Beloved , as Believed Friend SAMUEL FISHER . SOME FEW GENERALL Hints given out ( as time would give leave ) where to hit upon some few of those particulars , that are handled in the Book above . A BElieving Abrahams own children , born of his body , not his own in Gospel account , nor in right to stand in his Family , the visible Church now under the Gospell , nor heires with him of Gospel promises , much l●sse the meer fleshly seed of any believing Gentiles without faith , and doing the workes of Abraham , proved at large p. 95. to 105. The Ashford Disputers prov'd throwout their whole Disputation to have brought not one inch of Argument , or dram of reason to evince the right of believers infants to baptism , more then what , were it of any force that way , would as fully evince the right of unbelievers infants to it also , to whom themselves deny it . p. 60.61.62.63.64 . B The Triple Tower of BBBabell , i. e. the threefold kingdome of Priests , or great City BBBabylon , standing now divided in three parts , viz. Papall , Prelatical and Presbyteriall , now comming down to ruine by the division of languages p. 34.531.532 . Two parts of the great City BBBabylon , that 's to fall first here in England before it falls in other nations , viz. Papacy , Prelacy , fully fallen here already , the third , viz. Presbytery now falling dayly , together with all its Accountrements , as the other did before it p. 605.606 . Baptism Gods sign , not Gods seal , but the spirit onely his Seal of the Gosspel-covenant , and though a sign , and resemblance of the death , burial , and resurrection of Christ to persons at years , yet not so much as a sign to infants , but destroyed utterly in its nature , use and office as a sign , and outward representation , if dispensed in infancy p. 154. to 159. Mr. Baxters Baby-Book as occasionally toucht upon throwout this whole volume , So , so far as it pleads infant baptism from its three Mediums , Infant discipleship , Church Membership , and right to be dedicated to God , summarily , plainly , and entirely by it self answered p. 414. to 464. C The Babish Disputing of the Ashford Disputers for believers infants baptism above other infants from the Rule of Christian Charity , which , say they , is to presume every person to be good , till he appear to be evil , discovered and disproved p. 146. to 151. Circumcision set as a seal to Abrahams person onely , but as a sign only and no seal to his posterity , in what sense t is said to be a seal to him Ro. 4.11 . the sense of that Script ▪ which is perverted by the Priesthood , is plainly discovered p. 18.19 . also p. 24.154 also 269. The Argument from the Analogy , that the Priests say is between Circumcision and baptism , called by Dr Featly , Pons Asinorum , a bridge which the Asses , i. e. the Anabaptists could never passe over , examined , and such Dialogy and discrepation discovered to be between those two services , not onely as we use , but as themselves abuse baptism , that two administrations cannot be said , nor shew'd to differ more then they do p. 159. to 189. No Command for infant-baptism ( as there was for infant-circumcision ) neither syllabical nor consequential . Mat. 28.19 . where Dr. Featley , Mr. Marshal , Mr. Blake , positively say its commanded in the word [ all Nations ] they being a part thereof , and where , not these three onely , but Mr. Bayly , Mr. Baxter , Mr. Cook , Mr. Cotton , and even all , intimate it to us as commanded in the clause [ make disciples ] cleared to be no Command , but a plain prohibition of infant baptism , p. 162. to 169. The Command for circumcision of infants Gen. 17. not so much as a consequential or vertual Command to baptize them , as Mr. Marshal would prove it to be , unlesse the Priesthood will yield themselvs to be transgressors of that Command , who baptize females on any day , when only males were bid to be circumcisied on the eight : or if the Command for circumcising children Gen. 17. were a consequential Command to baptize them , then the Contramand to circumcise children Act. 21.21 . must be a Contramand to baptize them p. 178. to 184 Mr. Cotton confesses that the infants that were brought to Christ Mark 10.14 . were not baptized , and that no infants were baptized with the rest in that place , where it s recorded that 3000 were baptized Act , 2.38 , 39 , 40. p. 138. The Babish disputings of the Ashford Disputers for infant baptism from a necessity of making the Gospel Covenant worse then that under the law , contrary to Heb. 8 , 6. if believers infants may not now be baptized as well as the Iews infants were then circumcised , discovered and disproved at large p. 151. to 189. The law and Gospel , though one a type of the other , yet are two really , specifically distinct Covenants , and not two different administrations only ( though so also ) of that one Covenant of grace ; nor one Covenant only for substance , as the Priests make it : a diversity in them discovered contray to that identity they plead , p. 251. to 254. The great and mighty Argument for infant-baptism from the practise of the universal Church , which the Ashford Disputers complain much that we would not hear of , ventilated , and the little verity , great vanity , and utter invalidity therof discovered p. 238. to 247. Clergy no proper name to the National Ministry , but to Christs people . p. 553 D No Damnation to any dying infants p. 105.106 . to 462. Infants not possibly capable to be Disciples of Christ , and The dribling disputings which the Priests make for infant Discipleship from Act , 15.10 . and from infant Discipleship in proof of their right to baptism discovered p. 169. to 178. also 207.208 . p. 410. to 423. Total Dipping proved at large to be the onely true way and form of baptizing , 1 from the prime signification of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 2 from the example and practise of the primitive times , 3 from the proper end and use of baptism , which is to be not only a sign , but resemblance of the thing signifyed , and from divers other considerations , and the frivolous fendings and provings of the Priests against Dipping , and for sprinkling discovered , and their Obulary Objections answered p. 308. to 397. Mr. Cook , and Mr. Baxters bawbling , false and refusely charges of the Totall Dippers , as Dipping naked , as no lesse then Murderers and Adulterers , refelled and refuted p. 397. to 412. E No Example of infant baptism in all the Scripture , the pedling proof of the Priesthood for infant baptism from the several Housholds that are said to be baptized , discovered and disproved p. 185. to 188. Old England , Scotland , New England concurring together by the ears about their infant-rantism 227. to 237. All those Eulogies or high commendations that are given to little infants in those Scriptures , Mark. 10.14 . Mat. 19.14 . Luke 18.16 . cannot possibly prove them to have any right to baptism , and the childish disputings of the Ashford disputers therefrom disproved , also Dr. Holms's weak Arguings from Mark 10. for infant baptism ; and that Scripture opened , and urg'd as a strong Argument against the Priests in that point p. 132. to 142. F Faith , their apparent having of which is the first way , whereby the Ashford Disputants would prove believers infants to have the Spirit , not possible to be in any infants , much lesse to be manifested to be in believers infants , more then in those of unbelievers : the childish disputings of the Ashford Disputers in proof of infants Believing from Matth. 18.6 . from Faiths being , and witnessed by their circumcision to be in the Jewes infants , from their uncapablenesse to be justifyed and saved without it , and from all other considerations whatsoever , abundantly disproved p. 69. to 75.195 . to 201.271 to 279. and their unreasonable repulses to such objections , as themselves confesse , Reason makes against infants faith , on Reasons behalf replyed to , p. 279. to 299. Not onely the primitive Fathers , viz. F. Peter , F. Paul , F. Jude , F. James , F. John , are all for us ; but the sub-primitive Fathers , which the Ashford Disputers pretend they would fain have pleaded it from , & perhaps are more versed in , then in the other , discovered to be more against , then for Infant baptism p. 214. to 226. H Imposition of Hands asserted unanimously by Paraeus , Calvin , Hophman , Marlorat , Bullinger , Cotton , and Dr. Holmes , who cites these , to be dispensed in antient time to baptized persons , when at yeares , in order to their admittance into church-fellowship p. 139. One undeniable Argument for the present use and practise of that doctrine of laying on of Hands on baptized believers before their admission into fellowship in the Church , p. 492. in prosecution of which , A Paper newly extant , stiled Questions about laying on of Hands , with the grounds thereof , is answered p. 493. to 510. What Heresie and Schism is ; who is a Schismatical Here●ick p. 524.525 . the PPPriests proved to be the chief Hereticks and Schismaticks p. 526. to 528. the Churches of the Baptists clearing themselves from the crime of Heresie and Schism out of Calvins own mouth p. 529.530.531 . Heresies , Idolatry , false worship 〈◊〉 to be tolerated in civil States : the parable of the tares and Wheat Mat. 13. opened , liberty of conscience in matters meerly of Religion , proved and pleaded therefrom , and by many other Arguments , as the mind of Christ , and the Higher Powers of the earth strictly summoned in the name of Christ , as they will answer the contrary at their peril , to cease acting according to the PPPriesthoods bloody Tenet of persecution for cause of conscience p. 532. sundry causes why God suffers Hereticks to be ; four great causes of the CCClergyes so great Heresie , and erring from the truth , viz. 1 Amor sui , self conceit , 2 dislike of their own places , 3 Gloriae secularis Aucupium , a desire to be Some body , 4 Covetousnesse p. 590. to 608. Holinesse threefold , 1 Morall , none of this in infants p. 75. to 78. 2 Matrimoniall , this in all infants as well as some ( save onely Bastards ) but proves not the holy Spirit to be in its subject , nor gives any right to baptism , yet this proved to by the Holiness onely meant in 1 Cor. 7.14 . p. 78. to 85 ▪ 3. Ceremoniall , viz. that of the Jewes by nature that entitled them to circumcision , commonly called Faederall by the Priests , the common Topick , whence they Analogically plead a Birth - Holines in believers infants , & consequently their right to baptism , proved abundantly to be abolished , and the extream contradiction , follies , absurdities of Mr. Blakes Baby book ▪ stiled the Birth-privi●edge discovered , p. 85 ▪ to 132. The Holinesse of the Iews seed confest by both Mr. Blake , and Mr. Baxter to be the same , whereby the Land , City , Temple were holy , which being ceremonial and abolished , the other must needs be so also ▪ p 114.115 . The Babish disputings of the Ash●ord Disputers , and of Mr. Baxter for infant baptism from the Hope or Hopelessnesse of their salvation according as we dispense or deny baptism to them , discovered and disproved , and grounds to hope the salvation , of all dying infants , whether baptized or no , exhibited : p. 189. to 193. also 442. to 462. I Innocency of infants no argument for their baptism , but much rather for the contrary p. 77.78 . As Ishmael and his seed was cast out of Abrahams house before Isaac , so Isaac and his seed before Christ. Gal. 4.22 . to the end , and many other Scriptures illustrating that truth , opened . Johns Baptism , why called Johns , how differing from Christs , and how it was Christs p. 478.479.480.401 . M The National Ministry , whether we consider their ordination or manners , and many more matters , no Ministry of Christs making but of the Popes , p. 558. to 588. O The reasons ordinarily rendred against the use of baptism , or any Ordinances at all refelled . p. 476. to 491 509. to 522. P The Gospel Promise not made to believers seed , as such , nor to the meer fleshly seed of any man in the world . Act. 2.39 ▪ which is made so much of by the Priests , as of force to prove infant baptism , opened , and cleared to make against them , p. 89. to 95.261 . to 266. S Scripture up in armes against infant baptism , as coted in proof of it out of Mr. Baxters own mouth . 206.207.211.212 . Of Sprinkling , when and how it came instead of baptism , p. 311. P. 311. line 27. for Fidus read Magnus . Caetera tam nil sunt , ut vix funt digna notatu , Crimina Typographi parva remitte precor . ANTI-DIABOLISM . OR THE TRUE ACCOUNT A TRUE COUNTERFIT . ANd now Sirs ( to say nothing of your pretty Preface till anon , for even that also must then be forth coming to give Account of its dawbery , and incongruity , as well as your Account it self ) I will begin with your book , which ( as diminutive as it is ) you have for all that stitcht up in no less than three Treatises . First , A Report of your Disputation . Secondly , A Review of your Arguments . Thirdly , A Ratiocination about Hereticks . In all which , how far forth you quit your selves like men of truth , and reason , comes now before the world to be examined . The first I say , is a Story of the long Disputation that was held at Ashford , Iuly 27 ▪ 1649. from noon , till neer seven at night , and it 's contained in the five first leaves , whereof two whole ones at least ( but say so they had need ) are spent in your exact setting down of the Arguments and Answers , and the rest in praevious and posteriour passages . So that in this first part of your Pamphlet , there are two things in generall which you profess to give A true Account of . First , The Propositions agreed on between your selves , and your Respondent , his Position , and what else was precedent , and preparative to the Disputation . Secondly , The Disputation it self , and such things as were subsequent to it , in each of which , if I shew not that you have recorded more flat falsities , and down-right untruths than one ( and that were too much to fall from your pens , were you Ministers of Christ indeed ) then let my own pen record me for a lyar , and my own self bear the blame of over-charging you , and that for ever . In order to a trial of the Truth in this case between you and me , though I suppose I shall not be more critical in considering , nor volumnous in dilating on them , than your selves are numerous in bewraying of your own negligences , ignorances , contradictions , fictions , nakednesses , and abusive shifts , throughout this your three-fold thing , yet I shall make little less than a totall transcription of your Papers , before I have done , and therin take notice of such absurdities at least whereby you most notoriously delude the world , most grosly oppose the truth ; most unworthily wrong your Respondent , and most palpably proclaim your selves to be rather true Dissemblers , than true Discoverers of the Ashford Disputation , and Smotherers , rather than Publishers of that Gospel-truth in the point of Baptism , which you pretend also to give as true an Account of to the world , as of the other . Report . You talk first of Propositions agreed upon between your Respondent , and your selves , the Ministers at the Communion-Table , in the Church of Ashford in Kent , before the Disputation began . Reply . Give me leave ( Sirs , sith silence with you may be taken else for Assent ) to say a word or two to this ; you stile your selves the Ministers both here , and else-where , throughout your book ; But if you mean Ministers of Christ , and the Gospel , I am yet to learn that from you ( which I never found you very forward to teach me ) viz. that you came truly , and honestly by that Title ; you have hitherto wanted no provocation from me to prove the lawfulness of your calling : I made bold to denominate you Antichristian Ministers , in my Position , upon the very day of the Disputation , before those Thousands , which ( you say ) were Auditors thereof ; And I have asserted the same more abundantly since in that letter to Mr. G. C. which it seems you know so well , as even thence to take occasion in a Pet , to publish so much as you have done of your Disputation , all which is enough to give you to understand that I own you not at all in that capacity , yet did you never , no neither then at the Disputation , nor since in your so true a Relation of it , so much as once open your mouth , or strike one stroke with your pen , whereby to evince it , that you are Christs Ministers , which gives me to believe , that howbeit you have a habit of calling your selves so , yet you had rather men believed you , on your bare words , than put you to prove your selves to be so , and that you are as utterly uncapable to clear it , as 't is clear you are unwilling to be urged to it . You speak of the Church of Ashford , and a Communion-Table in it : 'T were strange if I should not know what you mean thereby , yet had you told this peece of your tale in other Terms , it had been so much the less lyable to correction : I know but one Church of Ashford , that hath a Communion-Table in 't , and that is those few persons , who since they have gladly received the Word of Truth , have been according to Christs will in that kind , baptized in his name for remission of sinnes , and do now continue in the Apostles doctrine , and fellowship , and in breaking o● bread , and prayers , to which the Lord I hope will add dayly such in those parts as shall be saved : in this Church there is a Communion-Table indeed , even the Table of the Lord , at which they meet , blessing , and drinking that Cup of blessing , which is the Commemoration , and Communion also of the blood of Christ , breaking , and eating that bread , which is the Commemoration , and Communion of the body of Christ , at which you , and your Respondent never yet met , but may do yet in due time , if the Lord please to grant you , ( for till then surely it never will be ) repentance to the acknowledgement of his truth : But for other Communion-Table , I wot not Sirs that there is any at all at Ashford . As for that common Table , which stands in the great stone house , where the Bells hang , where the people meet once a week , but never do that they should do , if they were disciples of Christ indeed , which house you call the Church of Ashford , ( and I cannot but allow you so to do ( sith you disclaim the true one ) the very Steeple being well nigh as much a truly constituted Church of Christ , as a parish people , the one whereof is but a compacted number of dead stones in a literal sense , and ( for the most part ) no less in a spiritual sense is the other , besides stone Churches , and wooden Priests ( such as if you are not , yet most of the Popes children are ) suit well enough each with other ) as for that Table ( I say ) where you , and your Respondent agreed better about the Articles of the Disputation , then they do ( for ought I see ) to this day about that Article of faith they disputed on , you had need to find some fitter phrase for it , than Communion-Table , for it hath long since ceased to be of any such use as for people to communicate at it ; The Gentleman , my beloved friend that is now Resident there , and President too ( in pretence at least ) as a Pastor over that flock , having never administred it at all since his abode among them , nor since the Classis possest him of that Relation , and gave him orders to feed them with that ordinance : why he doth not meddle with that service in his parish , would be farre more wonderful to me then 't is had not mine own conscience been of the same constitution with his when I was with him in the same condition , for as my own feet stuck once in the , same stocks when I stood in Pastorall relation to parochiall people , so I believe him to be further inlightned , then to be free for a promiscuous admittance to the Supper of such Societies , among whom he discerns ( not a few ) more goats than sheep , or to hold Communion there , with them whom in the Pulpit he cries out on as unbelievers , as knowing well enough , there 's no fellowship to be held between light , and darkness , believers and unbelievers in that holy ordinance : yet he sprinkles the Infants of all ( as you also do , and my self blindly did ) or else that parish will prove happily to hot to hold him : upon what account he doth so I know not , for sure it cannot be upon this , because onely believers Infants are to be sprinkled . The Lord open all your eyes to see those sorry shifts wherein you shroud your selves for a time from your own sight , so that ye see not when ye interfeer , nor feel when you hack your own shins , for who so blind as those that cannot see how you act quite contrary to that you argue for , and overthrow your own principles by your practise ? Report . These Propositions say you were as followeth . First , that both parties should publiquely protest that they sought for verity , not victory . Reply . I acknowledge this is very true , and it was protested on both sides , accordingly as was agreed , nevertheless whether it be the Proud Priest-hood , that seeks to tuck all men under their girdles , and by force to tye high , and low , rich , and poor , Prince , and people , male , and female , bond , and free , to serve God in no other way than the Pope , or their Arch-bishops or Arch-presbyteries appoint , and to tread all under them , that with never such evidence of Scripture , and demonstration of the Spirit , and power do gainsay them , or that poor party of people , who meerly in order to the promotion of truth rejoicingly subject themselves to scorn , shame , hatred of all , revilings from friends , foes , neighbors , old acquaintance , &c. whether ( I say ) it be those , or these , aliàs you or we that pretend verity , and intend onely victory will appear more at large in the examination of the 23. page of your book , in the first line whereof you charge us therewith , as an evil most specially incident unto us , mean while I let it pass , and go on . Report . Secondly , that the question to be disputed was Paedo-baptism , namely , whether the baptizing of little Children , born of believing parents , practised by the Church of God , were lawfull ? Reply ▪ I remember indeed that when 't was questioned what the question should be , Paedo-baptism was agreed upon to be it , i. e. whether children ought to be baptized ? but had I been as wise as a Wood-Cock , or minded the matter so well as I should have done , I had spoken in a language more consonant to your practice , for Paedo-rantism was the question I intended i. e. whether children ought to be sprinkled ? for though Baptism , or Dipping of Infants is that the lawfullness of which you will never be able to demonstrate , an error lying still in the Subject , in case you did ( as ●n truth you do not ) dispense it , yet you are gone further from the truth then so , no more ( at best ) than Rantizing that false Subject , which to do is indeed no Baptism at all : I excep●ed against this in my Position as well as the ●ther , but your prudence was pleased to leave it out in your accurate Account thereof , least it should do you more harm than good , and asserted your errour to be double , in your dispensation of that you call Baptism viz. first in that you plead to have Infants be baptized when they ought not , Secondly , in that you pretend to bap●ize them , and yet do not ; of both which I demanded an account at that time , and in all reason you should have given it , but not caring how little your sprinkling is spoken of , because you have little , or nothing to speak for it , you so took me at my word at the Table when I yielded to dispute Paedo-baptism , that Paedo-ran●ism ( your only practise ) might not be medled with in discourse at all . Secondly , I observe when ever you come to dispute for your Childish-christenings you plead only for the Infants of Believers : but is not your plea by far too narrow for your practise , whilest you commonly christen the Infants of all ? you know your people are not all in the faith , why else do you preach to them as prophane to the end you may convert them thereunto ? yet the wickedest wretches you so keep from the Supper , that you often keep all from it for their sakes ; have access with their seed to be christened , as freely for the most part as the other : doth not that same faith that denominates men believers , saints , godly , and gives them , and ( as you say ) theirs too a true title to Baptism , intitle their persons to the Supper ? or must a man bring you another , and that a better kind of faith to the one , than he had need care for toward the other ? this some of your Tribe do not blush to say , because ( as the case is ) there is nought else to be said : but know ye Sirs and they too , that though you have your several sorts of Saints for your severall services viz. your grosser sort of believers to admit ( not in their own persons neither when at years , but ) in their posterity only to your Rantism , and a finer sort for the Supper , yet Christ requires but one sort of faith and saintship to both these ordinances , viz. no more than a true one to the one , and no less than a true one to the other . Again you had much need ( had you not think you ? ) to set children of believing parents as the only subjects of Baptism in the sta●e of the question between us , when throughout your whole Dispute ( as I shall shew when I come to consider it ) there is not a tittle , nor grain of argument brought by you to prove the right of Believers Infants to Baptism , but it serves as much every whit to prove the like for the Infants of Vnbelievers also : yea Sirs take this from me , you do your cause a world of wrong in stating your question so streightly , for besides that you give the ly therein to your own action , which is the admission of all that are brought to you , and are born within the precincts of your parishes , you drive your selves to such a Dilemma by your own disputes , that you will not know how to open your Church-doors for Believers Infants to come in thereat , but Vnbelievers Infants will with ease creep in at them too . Thirdly , one word more to this yet : Did your Respondent assent to you in it ( as you seem to say ) that the Baptism of children is practised by the Church of God ? how pretily have you put these terms [ practised by the Church of God ] into the very question , and that too as it stands stated beeween us ? Did I give , and grant so much ? or have you not rather taken it for granted from me whether I will , or no ? Sirs I had thought I had given you sufficient evidence of my denial that the Baptism of Infants is practised by the Church of God ; yea though the Church of the Pope , and such as you call the Church of God , as the Church of the Prelate , the Church of the Presbyter , and some others too , do dispense Rantism to Infants under the name of Baptism , yet I did then , as also I do still , deny it to be , or have been practised by any true Church of God primitive , or modern , that then was , or now is visibly constituted according to his will in the word : As for what you call the Church of God whether you mean all Christendome , or the Protestant part of it only , it is even therefore no true visible Church of God because it Rantizes Infants : for that being undoubtedly a stragling from the truth , and an undue administration of that ordinance , not only as to the form of it , but the subject also , the name of the true visible Church of God is ( ipso facto ) destroyed from it , were there no more error in it but barely that , if Doctor Featly ( to whom you send us in your Review ) define the true Church of God aright ; for while he saies that ( meaning that only ) is a true Church where the word is truly taught , and the Sacraments duly administred , consequently that is no true Church where baptism is unduely administ●ed ; and so it is , ( or rather Rantism instead of it ] not only at Rome , but in England also , whilst to Infants ; therefore as the Church of Rome is but a false Church , so the Church of England is no true one . I utterly do therefore , yea and did then , deny that Infant-Baptism is at all practised by the Church of God : and yet ( O full of all fallacy ) as if your Respondent were agreed with you in 't that the true Church of God did baptize Infants , how finely have you foisted in this Epithite to the baptism of little children viz. [ practised by the Church of God ] and that in this very Account you give of our agreement about the very form , and terms of the question , that was yet to be disputed between us ? Report . Thirdly , That the Arguments used in the disputation should be only express Scriptures , or arguments of necessary consequence from them , All Authorities of Fathers and Churches laid aside ; though the practise of the Church was pleaded for , yet would not be yielded to . Reply . 1. I agree with you that the Arguments should indeed have been such only by agreement , but that one of those you then used , or any of these few material ones ( for the immateriall being of no account with your selves you Account not for ) which you here expose to be perused is grounded upon express Scripture , or any good consequence therefrom I deny , as will I hope be manifested in my ensuing Re-review of them , and Review of your Review it self . Secondly , if by Fathers , whose authority you hang so much on , you mean those that were some hundreds of years after Christ , and were canonized more lately for such , as Father Origen , Father Chrysostome , Father Ierom , Father Cyprian , Father Austin , and the other objects of the Clergies Dotage ; and if by Churches you mean those that were in the ages when , and places where these Fathers lived , or any other since the primitive times , which were the purest , it is but a follie to stand arguing from them , whose words and waies are no more the rule of truth to us then ours are to be to them that succeed us : for verily they might and did speak sometimes not according to the word , and then they were as Heterodox as others , and our selves are in as good possibilities as they to speak according to the word , and then we are as Orthodox , and Authentick to the full as themselves . I did therefore utterly disown all authority of these Fathers , and Churches , for I knew none they had to be a Standard to after ages : yet though I counterpleaded your Plea from their practise , it was not least your cause should be advantaged thereby , for even the Testimonie of those Fathers is against you ; but because as they were subjected to the word , so were they as subject to error as our selves : but if by Fathers you mean the Primitive Prophets , and Apostles to whom all your Fore-fathers are but Children , viz. Father Peter , Father Paul , Father Iames , Father Iude , Father Iohn , whose Doctrine was the foundation to the Churches , and by Churches those that were then built upon their doctrine , as that of Ephesus , Corinth , Philippi , Rome , &c. before the falling off from the truth , the Authority of these Fathers , and practise of these Churches is pleaded for as seriously by us , as the other superstitiously by your selves . Report . Fourthly , Here you tell us t was propounded , That the form of the Disputation should be Syllogisticall , which I , after many reasons alledged by you the Ministers to inforce the same , at last yielded to . Reply . A very fit phrase for it : for 't was inforced by you indeed , yet more by strength of resolution than reason , that 't was yielded to by my self is as true ; yet I must profess it was because the Disposition of your wills did put me 〈◊〉 ( as we say ) to Hobsons Choise , for I saw you so desirous to draw your necks out of the coller , and to make any thing an excuse to break off the Discourse , that I must choose either that way , or none , and therefore rather than the work of that day should ●all ( as it must have done altogether else for you ) to the total failing of the expectation , and hindering the edification of the people , I could not but give way to your desires : Nevertheless your many reasons ( which were but two , and those as reasonless too as if you had said nothing ) were counter-mand with as many more , and those also of so much weight , that because you began to feel them sit heavy upon your Scholastick skirts , you would have obstructed my delivery of them to the people : for what great matters did you alledge whereby at that time and place to prove the expediency of such a form ? First , that 't was given out ( as my desire to them is it never may be again ) by them of our party , that I was a Scholar , and durst meet with Scholars in discourse , and therefore seeing I now was before Scholars , it was expected that I should dispute in the way that 's most usual among them . Secondly , That the way of Dispute by Syllogisms ( for which some of you had little need to dispute , considering their illogicall , and un-syllogisticall doings that day , wherein they were all-to-be-puzzled in their matter by fumbling so much about that form ) was the clearest , and most compendious to the proving of things , and the preventing of extrravagancies , and disorder ; much what in such a manner did you utter your selves , in order to inforcing your Proposition , to which the reply was to this purpose , Namely , First , that though I had been in the Vniversity , and a Graduate there , yet I pretended to no great Scholarship , yea , that I was a Dunce , and a fool , which very terms , and no other , I repeated again in my Position , and was contented to be counted for no other , as to that kind of learning of much of which I was willingly forgetful , that I might know more of Christ , and the plainness of his Gospel . Secondly , that I came not thither to dispute , ( nor did I ( the Lord is my witness ) in that formal way you stood upon ) but in plainness to give an account before all , to as many as should ask it , according to my ability , and what liberty you should allot me thereunto , ( which yet was well nigh none at all ) of the way you call Heresie , after which I , and many others did worship . Thirdly , that these Syllogisticall wayes of arguing , and the foolish feigned forms of the Scribes and Disputers of this world , which men might dispute in about the things of Nature , and the world , were utterly unsuitable to the seriousness of the things of Christ , and the Gospel , which were most effectually delievered , for so Paul chose to hold them out , in all plainness of speech , and most commonly hid from people by the Logicall terms , and Methods of mans invention ; and that the wise and prudent men after the flesh , Doctors , Schoolmen and Casuists had clouded the truth from the world , for ages and generations toge●her , by these their artificiall composures , Fourthly , that Christ and his Apostles , the most of which were unlearned , and ignorant men , though they were scarce ever out of disputes about the Gospell , did yet never dispute by the way of Syllogisms . Fifthly , That this way was fitter for the Schooles , and very unfit for that Auditory , where the people , for whose sake we were chiefly come together to discourse , knew not what belonged to mood and figure . Sixthly , that we our selves were now countrified by our long non-residence in the Vniversity , and so might very well be to seek on a sudden , and so I found some of you were , to Syllogize so handsomely as we should do : these were the heads , though 't is like not the very words and order of that , which with mighty much a do , I had leave to return to your proposall : Notwithstanding , all which you standing still so stifly , to have either your own way , or none , I said I would not decline it , and so it was agreed to proceed in 't . Howbeit , give me leave to tell you now , as then I did not , sith you deem it such a wise way of Disputation to keep to the Rules of the Academies , that for men of gravity , in conference of matters of such eternall concernment , it 's a most Pedantick , toyish and boyish peece of business to stand fabling about moods and figures , which are but the A. B. C. or first rudiments to a Scholar , and as inferiour to judicious discourse indeed , as spelling with the finger is to reading in full perfection , and that which is as fit for a wise man to forget , as it is for a fresh man to remember : besides , it 's the next way round about to the discerning the whole of any matter ; for all you then said for your way in Syllogisms , which in substance was no more than this , viz. That infants have the Spirit , faith , holiness , many commendations in Scripture , are such of whom to doubt their having the spirit is a breach of Christian charity , whom to deny baptism to , makes the Covenant of the Gospel worse than that under the law ; destroyes all the hope that parents can have of their salvation , crosses the practise of the universall Church , which one would think you should be ashamed to make a book of ; might have been expos'd to the consideration of your Respondent , in much less than half the half quarter , and given out plainly enough in a few positions for him to have replied to with your leave and silence : but time was so spin'd out by your long productions , and his Repetitions of your Syllogisms , that there was but a very long-little , in comparison of what else might have been delivered ; and Sirs , I assure you of this one thing , I beseech you to lay it to heart in time , the generation of you Disputers is rejected by the Lord , and a sort of plain English men raised up , who notwithstanding the curiosity of your cudgel-play , and those fine forms of your Fencing-schools , whereby you shield your selves from the truth , will by their upright down-right dealings with you , and the word , be impowered to beat your cudgels to your heads ; and though you seek to lap up the nakednes of your waies , from the sight of the people for a time , in a pair of Logick breeches , yet these are wearing out a pace , so that you shall see within a while , what now you will not , that all your Syllogisticall forms , will not secure your Sylli-popicall matters . Report . Fifthly , you tell us 't was agreed that I should be respondent , which though there was little reason for , in regard I invaded the practise of the Church , whereof you the Ministers were Defendants , and ought to have shewed upon what grounds I did it , the confuting of which would havt tended more to the satisfaction of the Auditory , was by you the Ministers yielded to at my importunity . Reply . O yes ! all manner of persons that were at the Disputation at Ashford give attendance , here 's as pretty a prank as you shall likely see plaid by any , save a Classis of Clergy-men , and among them you may likely see the like again , viz. a tale told transversim , a thing storied out Archipodialitèr , or with heels upwards : and you of the Clergy that were there , you specially that fingred out this Article , heed what I say : That I who invaded the practise of the Church , for so I did , not of God but of Rome , England , Scotland , France , and Ireland , &c. in the point of Infant-sprinkling wherein they are all Romishly devoted , should come before 1000s of people , before you Mis-ministers also , professing my desires , and the very end of my being there to be no other then ( because I was counted an Heretick for denying Infant-sprinkling ) to give account , or ( to speak in y●ur own Terms ) to shew upon what grounds I did it , moving , urging , earnestly claiming by the very University orders , which your selves stood strictly to tye me to , that I might have two hours , or ( if not so ) but one , or ( if not so ) but half a one , wherein to lay down upon what grounds I denied Infant-spri●kling , that you the Ministers , Defendants of that way of yours might confute those grounds of mine ( if you could ) as that which would have tended more in my mind ( as well as yours ) to the satisfaction of the Auditors , then any thing else ( for even all this I did that day at Ashford ) and that you the Ministers should be utterly against my giving this account , and shewing my grounds , which I would so fain have shewen , rather then heard yours ( for no less then this do you confess your selves , saying page 2. that before the Dispute I moved to make a position , and page 10. that after the Dispute I made a motion that you would hear me preach , that is , give account , or sh●w the grounds of my dissent ( for so I spake , leaving you a liberty to take your exceptions when I had done ) and that your selves onely concluded it un-necessary , yea , oppos'd it , and made three or four [ frivilous ] pretences against it , for even this also you confess your selves , page 2. page 10. That you ( I say ) the same Ministers that did thus ponere obicem by your own confession , should yet in the same paper write thus , Namely , that I ought to have shew'd upon what grounds I denied your practise , that you might have confuted them to the satisfaction of the people , as if your selves had been very forward that I should give account , or shew my Arguments and Reasons , onely my selfe was against it , and opposed it , and that with importunity , as if I had urg'd , that at any hand I might not give account of what I did , 't is such a cunning contradiction to your selves as I never saw penn'd by the hands of prudent men since I was born to this day ; Sirs , if I should have said so much as this of my self , that I ought to have shew'd my grounds upon which I denied Infants-sprinkling , but was at that time importunate with you that I might not , my own conscience , which is Mille testes , and a thousand witnesses besides , would condemn me as no ordinary self-belyar , for I profess before the Lord , and those many people that then heard me , many of which ( unless willingly ) cannot be ignorant hereof , I was most forward that day to give out the grounds of the way I walk in , but that your selves ( not the people ) were most froward against it : but the people have believ'd you so long at a venture in other cases , that though both you , and they know the truth to be contrary to what you say , yet you hope they will believe you so still , but the Lord grant them to find out your forgery for the future , and to be no more guld by your ghostly glosses . Report . Sixthly , That there should be no tumults , no interruption of the Disputants that no provoking terms , whereby offence might be justly given or taken , should be used , that if any such were , warning should be given and satisfaction made , or the Disputation to break up , and the blame to ly upon that side which did transgresse . Reply . You might as well have given Account who they were that did violate this agreement , as of the Article it self , but then you had brought no little blame upon your selves , and thereupon very likely you forbore it : for as when you propounded this Article ( little considering that your selves were most likely to grow regardless of it ) you made a R●d for your own tails , so you had assuredly slashed your selves soundly therewith had you told all the truth indeed , for though this ( as all the rest ) was your own by - Proposall , your Antagonists only by assent , yet verily even you the Law-givers were the the men that did most grosly transgress it , yea some of you seem'd to sit there for nothing else but to blur , and blunder the proceedings by some impertinent interposals , or other , so that after questions askt me three or four times over , by your selves , and leave as often askt you by me to answer , yet the anticipations of some or other of you either forbad me to begin , or at least cut me off before the end : This Article therefore being broken by you in the other parts of it must be kept in the last clause thereof at least viz. the blame of the breach ly upon you . Report . Seventhly , That after the Disputation ended it might be lawful for any one of the Congregation , leave first obtained of the Ministers , to ask questions , and to propound his arguments not being tyed to any Syllogistical forms and to receive satisfaction . Reply . 'T was the facultie of the Pharisees of old to affect the chief seats in the Synagogues , and t is the fashion of you Masters in Israel now , to take upon you to be the Chai●-men still , and to bear such sway in the publick places , that the people may not meddle there to speak a word , or urge an argument , or ask a question , or without leave from you Masters of the Synagogues so much as once to quack in you● presence : but Sirs the best on 't is you have now in this year of Iubilee 1650. ( for so doth your book beare date ) given not only toleration , but advice and invitation too to all people to Ask the Priest p. 27. and therefore though formerly they might not do it at all , and even now they do it oft to little purpose , yet I hope you will have them excused ( for do it they will , by your leave , now , and then ) when they ask you questions in your Cathedralls without asking you any more leave so to do . Report . Next you tell us , That it was also moved by the Ministers , that two Moderators might be nominated , and also Clerks appointed for the writing down both of the Arguments and Answers , the Originalls to be left in the hands of the Moderators , that so no mis-reports might be raised concerning them ; or if any were , the truth might be made appear to any that should desire satisfaction , by repairing to them , which I utterly refusing , the Ministers superseded from further urging of it . Reply . I did indeed refuse to chuse any Moderator my self save the whole Auditory ) as knowing how basely the truth hath been captivated , and kept under for Heresy by the Clawes of the Clergy , when subjected to their determination ; yet did I not deny to have any chosen , for I left you the liberty to chuse whom you would , who very goodly ( but how justly let all men judge ) made choise of one to determine as judge in his own cause , who was the only opponent almost ( altogether if the True Account were not false , which sets down no Arguments but his ) but however the prime Plantiff in the Disputation , and as finely he fitted your fancies , that are affected so much with falsity , and foppery ; of both which there was great store in his Re●●pitulation . As for me , could I easily have suspected there would have been such immoderation amongst you as was , striking up so many of you together sometimes , that neither I could be heard by any of you at all , nor your selves very well by one another , it had not been amiss to have admitted of Moderators to have kept you in some better order ; for ●lerks also for the setting down of things truly , had I thought you would have taken such advantage for want thereof , as to raise ( and that in print too ) so many mis-reports as your selves have done , I had probably closed with you in that motion , and though I refused to do it then , ( as being better opinion'd of you then you have since deserved for ) yet it 's more than I am like to do again , if e're I meet you in another Disputation for that slippery tricks sake you have serv'd me concerning this : Ictus Piscator sapit . But as to this there 's no remedy now , save my N● , to your Yea , and the memories of the people that heard us , my Supreme appeal for moderation is to Christ , the Supreme Moderator of Heaven and Earth , before whom ( as I told you then I hoped I should speak nothing of which I should have cause to be ashamed ) so I tell you now , I hope I shall pen nothing of which I maie be affraid to give account when he appears , and we appear before his Tribunall : the same Lord come quickly , and judge between us , even so Amen . Report . After these Propositions were agreed upon , you say , I moved to have liberty to make my Position ; which after debate of the unnecessariness of it , the question being already stated , and the terms known , and understood by every one , was yielded to , so I exceeded not a quarter of an hour , which was accepted by me . Reply . Though the question were stated , and terms known never so well , ( as I deny they are to every one in the question of Infants Baptism , for such as are used only to sprinkling , take that to be Baptism which is not ) yet the grounds were not known upon which I held the Negative , and therefore 't was not unnecessary for me to make a Position : Moreover , I invading the practise of your Church , in tha● point , wherof you profess your selves to be Defendants , I ought to have shewed upon what grounds I did it , that you might have confuted them , this would have tended more to the satisfaction of the Auditory , than the omission of it could do ; if you will not believe me in this , yet at least believe your selves , for these are no other words then your own , yet I confess you have no great reason to give heed to your selves neither , considering how many offs , and ons you are found in ; for one while you assert it needfull that I should lay down my grounds ( as above ) another while ( as here ) that I moved ( and had you said with importunity too you , had spoken now no more than the truth ) to make a Position , or , which is all one , to lay down my grounds , onely you saw the unnecessariness of it : O pure stuff ! at last through much importuning to have an hour or two wherein to do it , and promising much more then you would accept of , viz. That if that day were too short to dispute in , I would give you the next day , and the next , and lastly pleading the equity of the thing from the order of the Schools , where there 's no Disputation without Position , to which order you had by Article oblig'd us , such high condescension was acted by you Presidents of the place , that I was allowed the large liberty of a quarter . Report . Next you go on to declare the sum of my Position , and that being come into the body of the Church , you the Ministers entred into the Desk , and I standing a little distance off upon one of the seats , leaning to a pillar , and the multitude being silent , I made my Position . Reply . For your relation of my leaning to a Pillar , it being neither true , nor material , what doth it here I wonder in this your short , and true relation , as you call it , of the most material things that passed ? yet sith 't is acknowledged by you to be a mistake in the margent of the coppy that you sent me . I 'le not onlie excuse it for once , though an error , but lend you a little toward the making of it truth , for I did lean indeed that day to a Pillar , even the true Church of God , which is the Pillar and ground of truth , which would you all lean as much to , as you do from it in these tottering times , you would stand a little faster than you are like to do , and secure your selves from that fall that is threatned in these words Babylon is fallen , is fallen , which though your Tower reach as high as heaven , as that old Tower of Babell seem'd to do , the Division of language that is in these daies wil e're long unavoidably bring upon you . Report . The heads of my Position you say are four , to which sith you subject four Answers of your own , I 'le reduce each of them to the severall head it relates to , and so reply to both of them together . First , That I need not spend time about stating the question it being done before at the Communion Table : to this first you saie , answer was made that herein I confirmed the Ministers reasons against my making of a position . Reply . Though there was no need to spend time in acquainting them with the question over again because that was done before at the Table , yet there was need , and so I expressed my self often enough , to spend time , yea four or five times more than I could get of you , in stating the question , i. e. of making a Position , for even with your selves these two are Synonima's , for what you stile stating the question in the first head the very same you call making a Position in your answer , yet such is your subtilty that you here represent it as if I , who was so earnest before to have liberty to state the question in a Position , and moved it as a matter most needfull , were already so altered in my judgement , as in the front of my Position to profess it needless to spend time about it : Sirs , what a sight of in s , and outs , are here ? do you not remember , or if you will not , yet some people will , that my chief complaint of you to them in my Position was this , That though I so much desired it , though it was very requisite , and the manner of the Schools , to which you tied me , and therefore I ought of right to have had an hours time , yet you had crowded me into the corner of a quarter ? which shewes that though you deem'd it wast of time for me to say anie thing almost about the question , yet I judg'd it very needfull to speak more to it than your patience was pleased to permit me , and yet it 's not enough for you , in your Account of the Position , to leave well-nigh all that little out which in that little time was declared as to the falsness of your administration by the way of sprinkling , and other matters of your Ministery , but you also falter and feign , and forge so fowlie in your sum of the Position as to set down more in 't than was ever thought on . Report . Secondly , That I came thither to defend the unlawfullness of Childrens baptism . which an evill and adulterous generation did maintain against me : to which you saie it was answered , that I transgressed the Propositions , in giving reviling and opprobrious terms , callng you a wicked and adulterous generation : to which , saie you , I replyed that my intent was not to fasten those words upon any there present , that I desired they might be so taken , which by you was admitted of . Reply . I came not thither , i. e. to Ashford so much to defend as to prove , could I have been licensed thereunto by your spiritual Court , the unlawfulness of Childrens Baptism , yet not of Childrens Baptism so much , which though it is easie , yet is needless to be disproved , because no where dispensed that I know of , but rather of Childrens sprinkling , which as it is doublie unlawful , so is universallie practised : of this end of my comming I gave evidence enough in debating the fourth Proposition , professing that I came to give account of my dissent , and denial of the truth of your waie , but when you denied me to give my desired Account , wherein I would have been a Plantiff and a prover , I must then defend , or do nothing , neither did I saie of this evil and adulterous generation that they maintained it against me , but themselves , for whether they do , or do it not they cannot hurt me thereby , but if they do it the worst will be their own , for as they of old that rejected the true Baptism for none Luke 7.30 . did reject the councel of God against themselves , so do they that reject it for a false one : as to the terms of evil and adulterous generation , concerning which you first charge me , and then acquitted me as not intending them to you , I meant them then in verie deed of this Age wherein we live , yet so long as you go a whoring from God after waies of mens tradition , and teach people to do so , as you do , I see not how I could have been truly said to revile , had I used them directly to your selves . Report . Thirdly , that though I had once been of that opinion , and a Minister of the Church , and received orders from it , yet now I was of another , and did renounce both the Church and her orders ; to which say you , 't was answered , that it was no marvell that I , that had forsaken the Church , should afterwards revile and despise her , and that God having suffered me to fall into so gross an error , as to deny and renounce my first baptism , did in his just judgement suffer me to fall further and further , Heresie being like a Precipice , where after a man hath begun his run , he cannot stay till he come to the bottom . Reply . I was once of that opinion indeed , and practise too , together with your selves , and had not a little zeal thereof ( though not according to knowledge ) when I acted in your false function , by implicit faith , and made the Directories , Canons , Catechisms , Creeds of the Clergies compiling my Rule ( as many more did besides my self ) not comparing them so singly as I should have done with that true Directory of the word ; but I have since seen good occasion to recant it , as you will undoubtedly do also first or last , ( and O that it may be yet in time to your peace ! ) notwithstanding , your now forwardness to uphold it : I was also ( in your sence ) once a Minister of the Church , but since , going about to look for that Ministry of the Church , and for that Church whereof I thought my selfe a Minister , from thenceforth I could never find either t'one or t'other : As for your Church of England , I confess I received twice her holy orders , viz. once from the Bishops , in the daies of their Dominion , by whom I was ordained a Deacon , i. e. in Scripture-sence , to look toth'poor , but in their sence , half a Priest , for in that capacity , we might sprinkle , if allow'd , and give the wine to people also in the Supper , but not by any means the bread , unless very specially licensed thereunto , till we should come into the full order of Priest-hood , for so ran the phrase in the old English horn-book , which as to that part , was stiled , The book of the Ordination of Bishops , Priests and Deacons , once also by the Presbyters ( so called ) since the time of their Parricid , or cutting the throats of their fathers the Bishops , that gave the being of Priesthood to them , and inducting themselves to reign in their stead , as the Bishops themselves had dealt not long before with their old father the Pope , who gave the being of Priesthood to them both , from whom not as a Priest-hood , but a true Presbytery , as they say , I was in orders to practise their refined Popery more perfectly , which I might do before but by the halves : but now I know not where this Church of England is , if you speak of a true Church of Christ , unless you can prove things to have their true being , without either their true matter or true form : for as the subject matter whereof it consists is false , being not baptized believers , so the form into which the Pope cast it some 600 years since , in to which also the Prelate and Presbyter have new cast it , being and that subpaena too , National , Provinciall , Parochiall , is utterly false , and her fellowship as good as none at all , because not free , but forced : and as for the true Ministry thereof , I know not where it is neither , if that onely be a true one , as you were wont to say it is , that can derive it self by a line from the very Apostles ; neither can you make good your interrupted succession from them , unless the Pope , from whom your Series comes , was even then a true Minister of Christ , when he was also an Antichristian Deceiver ; and unless Apostacy and Apostolicy , can so stand together , as that Rome was even then an Apostolick Church when 't was palpably apparent to be an Harlot ; neither if I could tell where , can I tell very well which is the Ministry of your Church of England , there are so many Ministries in it now , namely , Prelaticall , High-Presbyterian , Presbyterian-Independent , each of which lay claim to that title , but being both themselves , and their adherents for such different forms of government , cannot all three be the Ministry of one Church , unless your Church of England , that was of old so full of uniformity , is now become capable of tri-formety in its discipline and Ministry ; and yet to be intirely but one Ministry and Church of England still ; which if it be , it s a tr-iform monster then indeed . As to your answer to this third head , I wish you to weigh how rawly you utter your selves , whilst just after your selves had clear'd me from the guilt of Reviling , and before I had us'd any new terms , that could have the least savor of reviling , you return to charge me of it again ; but no marvel when every round reprover , and renouncer of your Romishness , is as much a reviler with you , as your selves are at Rome , for renouncing that grosser Popery that 's there . Howbeit , in truth he reviles your Church no more , that calls it a very Harlot , if it be so , then your selves revile Rome in calling her a Harlot because she is so : you hint at my renouncing my first baptism : can a man renounce that he never had ? for what was dispenc't when I was a child , as t is no signe to me now , for I remember not that I ever saw it , so I learn by the hear-say of it , that it was not baptism at all : as for this last , which is also the first baptism that ever was administred to me ; I see no cause to renounce it as yet , nor yet I am well assured ever shall . As for heresie , or believing and doing besides the word , t is a Precipice indeed , where after men have begun their run , unless the Lord mercifully prevent them , as he hath done me , and many more of late , and I desire may your selves in due time , who are all gone astray from primitive truth , after the doctrines and commandements of men , they cannot well stay till they come to the bottom , even the bottomless pit it self , into which that Arch-Heretitk the Pope who open'd it , and that numberless crue of corrupt Clergy-men , which by the advantage of that smoak of errors , with which he darkened the Sun , and the Air ascended from it , will fall again ; for out of the bottomless pit those Locusts came , and into the bottomless pit they must return . Report . Fourthly . That I was a fool and an Ass , and the weakest of many , to defend the doctrine of Iesus Christ , yet doubted not but to make it clear against every opponent : to which your answer was , that that which I said of my self out of a voluntary humility , you the Ministers did acknowledge out of the sense of your wants . Reply . As to secular literature , I did indeed acknowlege my self to be a Dunce and a Fool , but as to your bringing me in here , as branding my self with the name of Ass , I must protest against it as one of those scandalous and false aspersions , with many more of which this story of yours is stored ; in trial of which , I appeal to a letter sent to me , some few dayes after the Disputation , from an eminent gentleman then of your party ; my answer whereunto you cavill at , but care not for answering at all your selves : wherein he writes thus to me as concerning this present passage , viz. If any man should ask my opinion now , notwithstanding your seeming modesty to term your self Dunce and fool , I should be apt to conclude with the proverb , that to me you did appear by much more knave than fool : either therefore this gentlemans memory was better than yours , or else your faculty of forging is greater than his , and this is most likely of the two ; for though he reviles me through ignorance of what I am , yet I think he spake plainly what he thought , and repeated no more than what I spake of my self , but you ( oportet mendacem esse memorem ) whether wittingly or no , it concerns you to examine , have most grosly falsified my words , that you may fasten the fouler blemish upon my person ; this language you learn'd be like from Dr. Featly , who very often , al-to-be-asses the Anabaptists calling his argument from circumcision to Infant-baptism in respect of the Anabaptists Pontem Asinorum a bridge which these Asses could never pass over , p. 40. also in his preface to the Reader , wherein rating the russet Rabbies for preaching against the errors of the Priest-hood , what ( quoth he ) are all the Prophets become mad , that the Asses mouth must needs be open by miracle to reprove them ? nor doth he say so altogether without some reason : for verily we were all once Ass-assinated so farre ( as most Christ'n creatures are still ) as to yield our selves up to be rid by Balaam the false Prophet i. e. Assemblies and Classes of the Clergy , who love Ty●hes , the wages of their unrighteousness , and take toll of all people for deluding them ; till upon a time we saw the Angel of the Lord , with his sword ready drawn in his hand to destroy him , as he was riding us to defie Israel , since when , refusing to go with him any further though he smites us , of Dumb Asses ( as we were before ) we are become ( the Lord opening our mouths ) a people speaking with mans voice , and forbidding the madness of the Prophet . Moreover , I may well excuse your calling me Asse by craft , whilst you condescend to call your selves unawares by the same name of Fools and Asses , for do but mark what you here say of me , and how you make it agree with your selves ; he said ( say you ) that he was a fool and an asse , and that which he said of himself out of a voluntary humility , the Ministers did acknowledge i. e. of themselves , out of a sense of their wants : fallere fallentem non est fraus . Report . You tell us furrher , that you prayd the Congregation that sinee you were not the men appointed for the Disputation , but onely undertook it , that the truth might not be wholly deserted , and the current of slanders , which was likely to rush in against it , might be somewhat interrupted by the seasonable interposing of your selves , they would not suffer any defects of yours to prejudice the cause , that it was the truth on your side did animate you to undertake it , which you were ready to evince by the Arguments following , leaving the success to God , to whom onely it belonged to convince the understanding . Reply . Here 's much talk of the truth , and the truth , but the truth is , your undertakings have been ever a deserting of the truth , as it is in Iesus ; and causes of a current of slanders that rush in against it in every parish , from the mouthes of your Priest-rid people , who living under your constant out-cries of Heresie , Schism , and such like upon all that suits not with your covetous interest , have learnt exactly to speak in your tongue , as if they had been spit out of your mouthes : as for your seasonable interposure , it is by so much unseasonable , as t' will prove succesless to your ends ; for though , while the Clergies will was the worlds law , their interposings did interrupt all arisings of truth , yet now t is the time of the end wherein men wil run to and fro , and you labor in the fire , and weary your selves for very vanity , to uphold your thred-bare traditions , for the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord , as the waters cover the sea . Report . The sum of the Disputation held at Ashford in Kent , Iuly 27. Reply . Had these two brief businesses which you stile above [ the sum of my position ] and here [ the sum of the Disputation ] been stilled [ some of the position ] [ some of the Disputation , ] or a little of one , and a little of t'other you had bin in the right on 't , for there 's scarce so much as some of either : As for the Position you have dispos'd on 't out of the way , and diminisht the Disputation into nothing almost , in comparison of the true proportion of both . Now as to this piece of business which you stile the sum of the Disputation , I must talk with it two wayes , and deal with it under this double notion , First , as t is a Relation of the then Disputation . Secondly , as t is your Disputation for Infant-baptism : I shall shew the falsness of the one , and the foolishness of the other ; and then come to review your Review , your relation ( so you term it ) is most manifestly false , if not as false a one as was ever pend , or printed concerning such a matter ; since the Pope and his Priests , perceiving their kingdom to decline by the breakings forth of truth from under their smothers , began to be-lye its witnesses to this day : I shall take notice of a few more of your figments , and two or three passages in the Disputation , which passed by the memories of you Accountants , least by telling the whole truth you should shame the devil and your selves , which may suffice to prove a disproportion between your Tattale , and its Title of true Account , and so leave it to the unprejudic'd auditors of our Discourse , and impartiall per-users of our Relations . Report . First , you assert page 3. and that point blank , that I confessed that at three or four years old many began to be instructed in Principles of Religion , and that at that age they might be baptized , but afterwards that proof being offered that infants of a day old were as capable of baptism , I would have recalled it . Reply . Sirs , why hath Satan filled your hearts to ly thus against the truth , and by filching out of the waie ( purposelie as may be supposed ) what was of most moment to the making out of my true meaning , to wrest , and represent my expressions and intentions in them as croslie and contradictorily to what they were intended , as yea , and nay are one unto the other ? that children at three or four years old ( as your selves then affirmed ) may be instructed , I granted , and do still acknowledge with you , but that I said at that age they might be baptized , upon that account of bare instruction unless apparently effectual to their true conversi●● 〈◊〉 the faith , so that by Profession they give good ground to our consciences to believe that they believe , I here disclaim it , as either a mis-conception , or rather a meer conception , and birth of your own brains ; and profess it in the sight of God , and all men to be that which ( in the sence you here insert it in ) came not so much as into my mind , much less out of my mouth at that time ; and though I find you so un-ingenuous in your dealing , that I wonder how you can wish me to deal ingenouusly with you as you do , yet can I not conceive you to be so unjudicious as to conceive I confest as you have here accounted ; since my speech , to all that were not dull of understanding , was most plain to a very contrary purpose and tended to shew the utter unwarrantableness of baptizing , at any age at all , whether in Non-age , Middle-age , or Old-age , unless it be found in the way of Faith , and therefore of baptizing anie Infants , in respect not only of their incapacitie to believe , but much more to make profession of belief : I shall therefore give you , and the world too , wherebie yours must needs appear to be a juggle , a more true Account of the Dilation that was then between us : on this wise it was : I confess I granted ( for 't is the verie truth , though not of a straws weight to your purpose ) that by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mat. 18.3 . was meant children in Non-age , to which Christ saies his Disciples must be like , although bie the phrase v. 6. viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . I asserted then , and see no occasion of saying otherwise to this hour , that he means his Disciples , whom he likens to the other , and not little ones in age , and bodily Stature ; in proof of which I referr'd you to Mat. 10.42 . where under the self same greek phraise viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; he expresses no other than his Disciples , there being no little child then among them of which he could be imagined to speak : moreover I shewing how that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ whence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] did properly signifie not such an Infant as you sprinkle , which cannot speak ( called infans , quasi non fans ) but a child capable at least to be instructed ( and so you are to seek still for Infant-baptism ) 't was bolted out bie you that at three or four years old many began to be instructed even in principles of Religion , and that then at least they might be baptized ; whereupon I replyed , that 't was neither this nor that age , old or young , gave right , yea that no age could make a fit subject for Baptism , but that wherein a person is apparently instructed to conversion , and that when so instructed they were to be baptized , whether old or young , so that if you could so effectually instruct children at three or four years of age as to bring them to make such profession of faith , as I could not but judge to proceed from the reality thereof within , I could then for my part baptize them ; yet I thought it was a thing very seldome if ever at all visibly effected ; to this effect , and much what in iisdem terminis did I then deliver my self , yet so willingly were you mistaken in my meaning , as downrightly to set me out for such a Childish Novice , as met you before thousands to maintain the unlawfulnes of Childrens Baptism , and held a Discourse of 6 hours to that end , and yet confest the lawfulness of it so soon as ever we had well begun : but Sirs , suppose I had confessed ( as I did not ) that children of three or four years old , because capable at that age to be instructed , might without respect to the begetting of faith in them , by that instruction , even then , and thereupon only be baptized ; yet will you not at last be ashamed think you of that ignorant assertion of yours , namely , that infants of a day old are as capable of baptism as they ? for grant it should be granted you ( as it is not ) that bare instruction without any success thereof to conversion is a good ground to baptize persons on at three or four years of age , yet is it a ground whereupon to baptize Infants of a day old , that are not capable of so much as that bare instruction ? a man may in much wisedom , and some hopes ( if not of present yet ) of future conversion thereby begin to indoctrinate his children at three or four years old , and instill the principles of truth into them , as preparative to their obeying it hereafter , and also to baptism it self in due time ; yet I judge him as very a Child as his Child , that goes about to instruct , and baptize it so soon as t is born ; yet after your own assertion , by which you would make men believe I asserted that children of three or four years old are capable of instruction , and consequently of baptism so young , you second it with another more absurd , and false than the former , namely , that children of a day old are [ as ] capable of it as they : Say you so Sirs ? are infants of a day old capable of Baptism , that cannot so much as be instructed in principles much less be begotten to the true Religion ? or if you say you hold not their right to baptism from a capableness of instruction from which you plead the other , but upon other grounds , upon what grounds ? I beseech you Sirs , upon what grounds ? as you offered to shew them then so shew them now if you can , for none of the Arguments in your Account can possibly prove such a thing . What Infants of a day old ? I 'le saie it again that you may consider it , for sure you did not consider what you said when you said it , what children of day old ? fie for shame , Sirs had you said infants of eight daies old it might have held some proportion with that grand ground you go upon , viz. the Analogy between Baptism and Circumcision , but this opinion doth not cotten at all with that , for the subject of Circumcision , which you all say , though falsely , is one and the same with that of Baptism , was one of at least eight daies old , and an Infant of one day only was not a warrantable subject thereof , nor an infant of seven daies neither , though likely to die before the eighth ; but as for you , though your chief plea for your timely untimely rantizing Infants be grounded upon that timely dispensation of Circumcision , yet , as if you had a mind to proclaim your selves be-blinded , so that you cannot walk by Christs Right rules , nor your own wrong ones neither , you take the liberty to out-stand , or anticipate the eighth day at your pleasure : hence the birth day is as warrantable with you , as the eight , yea , in case of imminent danger of death ( in which case circumcision might not alter ) ti 's a learned question among some Infant-sprinklers , whether the mid-wife may not sprinkle it before it s born , i. e. while is hangs yet between the womb , and the world ; but too soon is too soon in all conscience ) and again when it fits better with your plum-cake occasions , the tenth , twelfth , or eight and twentyth day must be as acceptable to God as the eighth , yea , when it seems good to the wisdom of the Church , i. e. the Clergy , it may be deferred for no less than two or three hundred daies together , witness the old Rubrik , which saith , that in old time baptism was not ministered but at two times in the year , viz. at Easter and Whitsontide , but that custome being grown out of use for many considerations ( I know not any but the Clergies good will , and pleasure ) cannot now well be restored : Thus you ride people to and fro as you lift , and run manie miles from your own rules as well as Christs , for if Circumcision be your Rule for the time of Baptisms administration , keep punctually to the particular time of the eighth day , as well as to the generall time of Infancy , or else ( you may tell me the eighth day is a circumstance not to be regarded , whilst I tell you 't is such a substance that Moses was like to be slain for overslipping it , yet ) by your favour , Sirs , and by the same reason that you take an inch , I 'le take an ell , yea if you can acceptably go a fingers bredth besides the rule of Circumcision , I may go an hundred furlongs , and by the same Authoritie that you delay the Dispensation beyond the eighth , to the tenth , twelft , or the hundreth day , I may delay it ( unless belief withall the heart do ingage to it before ) to the ten thousandth day or more , nor can you question me why do you thus ? Secondly , whereas for my undertaking to rectifie you in your gross misapprehension , and reduce you from the misconstruction I saw you make of my speech ( which leaves you without excuse in this rude recording ) you record me as recalling what I said , I protest against that as another of your figments , which you had need both to recant , and repent of : there was but one thing recalled all that day that I know of , viz. that Iohn Baptist spake so soon as he came out of the womb ; that being rashly uttered by one in a Black coat was indeed as readily recalled : as for my self what I said then , I was so far from recalling , that I 'le give you the advantage of saying the same over again : hear therefore you deaf that you may understand , bring me the children of three or four years old not instructed only ( for so the wickedst heathen may be ) but instructed to conversion , and profession of faith ( not verbal onely ( for a Parret may be taught to prate ) but real ( as may seem at least ) and to desire baptism in Christs name ) yea more , bring me the Infants of three or four daies old thus truly discipled , and blame me for ever if I be not as forward to baptize them , as your selves are to rantize them undiscipled . This is the sense I then spake in , the Lord knows my heart to whom I appeal ultimately to judge between us . I have spoken it thus over again , you have now my mind more fully among you , mistake it not , but take it dexterously and make your best on 't , Report . Next you relate ( and that most fictitiously ) that I having asserted circumcision to be a seal of the righteousness of saith to Abraham only , and not to his posterity , and being urged to shew any Scripture that did import a change in the signification , and told that such a change must needs intimate that the same covenant was not made with Abrahams seed , that was made with himself , I was so foundered , that though you ingaged to become Anabaptists if I did it , yet I answered nothing that carried any sense or reason to the purpose . Reply . This I say is another of your your figments : for first to let pass the Sophisticall terms you used whilst you askt how or when Circumcision ceased to be a seal of the righteousness of faith even to Abrahams posterity ? as if I had granted that Circumcision was once a seal of the righteousness of faith even to Abrahams posterity as well as himself , and then was changed , ceased , & left off to be so , wheras I told you then , that though 't was so to Abraham himself , yet it never was so to them at all , & do also tel you now , that when a man saies of a thing that it never was so , it is but an illiterate kind of quere to ask him again , when it ceased to be so ? Secondly , confessing that I then affirmed , and also still affirming the same , viz. that Circumcision was a seal of the righteousness of faith to Abraham only , and not to his posteritie ; I profess thirdly , before the world , appealing to your own consciences to witness , that as it is most plain in the Scripture , so I then made a most plain discoverie of it from the Scripture , that there were other ends , uses , and significations of Circumcision to Abrahams own person ( though in some respects there were also the same ) then those for which it was dispensed to his seed , and that notwithstanding many things , which were promised to Abraham , were promised to all his seed together with him , yet there were somethings also promised to Abraham in the Covenant of Circumcision , which his seed had no promise of at all , as namely , First , That he should be the Father of all Believers . This I am most certain I then instanc'd in , and according to your then demand cleared by Scripture , even that very Scripture which was then quoted by your selves , Rom. 4.11 . and repeating the whole verse , whereof you , for your own ends , mentioned but a part . I told you t was evident even thence that Abraham had one preheminence , and priviledge that none of his posteritie had ever after him , which he obtained of God by his preheminence in believing , viz. the Fatherhood of the faithful ; of which eminent faith of his , which was imputed to him for righteousness , as well as of that eminent prerogative , the Fatherhood of the faithful , which God gave him upon that great faith , Circumcision was given him as a seal , in such a sence , as t was never given to his seed , a Seal I said , for it was a sign only but no seal to his posteritie , to honor the greatness , not to strengthen the weakness of his faith , i. e. to confirm him , that was so great a believer , even beyond hope , n that honorable title , which God put upon him ; therfore I told you it runs thus , viz. he received the sign circumcision , i. e. circumcision , ( which in its ordinary use was a sign ) a seal to him in this special sense , i. e. as a seal of the righteousness of that eminent faith which he had , that he might be , i. e. to that very end and purpose as to ratifie him in that royal title , The father of all that believe ; to this purpose I then spake , shewing withall that in the same sense in which the father is said to seal the sonne , Iohn 6.27 . to be the giver of that meat that endures to eternall life , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 him hath the father sealed , i. e. authorized to that business , honoured with that office , and as Pharoah honoured Ioseph , with the sole Dispensation of all the Corn , and Government of his Kingdome , and as Kings under the Broad seal do seal men to , i. e. honour them with , and settle them in great Places , Trusts and Titles , &c. in such a sense is God in that place said to give Circumcision to Abraham , whereby to seal him up , and settle him for ever in that glorious title , viz. the father of all that believe ; in which sense Circumcision ( though a sign of some things in common to him with his posterity ) was never given to any one of Abrahams posterity at all : this as it is clearly held forth in that place , so was so clearly held forth to you from that place of your own naming at that very time , that as I wondered you could be ignorant of it then , so I much more admire , that you are not ashamed to bewray such dissembling in the recording of it as you do , and such wretched ignorance of it still ; besides , I know not whether I instanc'd then in any other , but I am sure ( as shy as you seem to be of it ) there were divers more promises made , and priviledges made over to Abraham under the great Seal Circumcision , which were neither made nor given , much less confirmed by Circumcision as a seal thereof to all his posterity , viz. that his seed should inherit Canaan , this though it was made . and made good to Abraham , and that seed of his to whom it was promised , yet not to the seed of all his seed , for many of his posterity ( as Ishmael , who was circumcised , and his children by Keturah also , and their whole race ) had none of all this seal'd to them by Circumcision : Again , that Christ should come out of his loyns , that in his seed all Nations should be blessed , these were made to Abraham , and were ( as the rest also ) great Priviledges to the honour of which he was sealed , yet though 't was signified to all his seed by Circumcision , that Christ should come of him after the flesh , all of them had not that previledge by promise that Christ should come of them after the flesh : by all which it undeniably appears that the same Covenant of Circumcision , in every of those respects in which Circumcision was given him as a seal of it , was not given to all the Iews , and their children , and that fore-named place speaks of Circumcision onely in reference to Abrahams person , and in that sense , and respect in which it was given to him only as a Seal of his faith . i. e. that strong faith he acted , and gave glory to God by , Rom. 4.20 . for which God also gave that great glory and dignity to him , viz. the father-hood of the faithfull : All which notwithstanding , and much to the same effect that was uttered then , to shew that Circumcision had more ends , and relations to Abrahams Person , then to the Persons of his seed ; yea , and though your own paper , which lastly I appeal to , doth testifie that I I multiplied words , that is to say , spake much about other ends of Circumcision to Abraham then to his seed , yet you both be-lie me , and give the lie to your selves so far as to say , I was extreamly foundered , which to say , and yet to say in the very same line , that I multiplied words about other ends of Circumcision , the very point your selves had urg'd me to speak to , if it be not at once to say , and unsay , then verily I know not what is ; for these two are contradictory to each other : but perhaps you think to salve all with this , that being call'd to speak punctually to that end , viz. whether Circumcision were a seal of the righteousness of faith to Abrahams posterity at all or not , or if not to shew it , I answered nothing to that particular , that carried any sense or reason in it : but really Sirs , I said no less to that very end , but rather much more then I have said a little above , which whether it have any sense or reason in 't or no , yet was it both sensless and reasonless in you however to leave it wholly out , and you had dealt far more ingenuously and judiciously in your own Account , and in every rationall mans also , had you set down what I answered , and so put your Reader into a capacity of discerning , whether it were to the purpose yea or no : but that its like you were very loath to do , least ( as nothing as it was to your purpose ) it should have been more serviceable then you desire it to be to ours . As for that ingagement whereby ( how wisely a fool may see ) you bound your selves to become Anabaptists , in case I made discovery of what I did abundantly discover , I freely dis-engage you from that double performance , and shall accept much more of your single submission to that ordinance , it being no matter of rejoicing to to me to see any man translated from A-no-baptist to be an Anabaptist for that is from one extream to another . Report . Next you relate p. 5. that I said I did not deny but that little children might have the holy Ghost and these texts of Scripture , viz. Mar. 10.14 . Mat. 19.14 . Luke 18.16 , 2. Cor. 13.5 . did seem to intimate as much , but that it could not be made appear that they had it to the making of them subjects of baptism . Reply . To this which is another flat falsity , and counterfeit resemblrnce , I reply thus , first that little children might have the holy spirit , if God please extraordinarily to infuse it , I might then possibly not deny , nor dare I yet deny but that possibly they may , but it 's more then God hath manifested if they have , to either us , or you : nor will this grant either prove the propriety of your Position , who down-rightly declare they have it , or warrant your baptizing them thereupon , so long as still 't is unapparent to you that they have it : for first , à posse ad esse non valet consequentia ; it follows not because it may be , therefore 't is : yet such Country-clearing of things is seen now and then among you Countrey Clergy-men , that if from may-be to must-be , may not pass for good reason , there must be no more given at all ; witness the yery last Argument us'd by the first opponent at this Ashford Disputation , whereby to prove infants to have the spirit , who having urg'd the example of Iohn Baptist , ( whose example is also hinted in your Review p. 16. of your Pamphlet ) just before to this effect . viz. Iohn had the holy spirit from the womb , therefore children have it , and being answered to that thus , viz. Ex puris negativis , et particularibus nihil sequitur universale , claps in this consequence to close up his discourse with , viz. It doth not appear to you that children have not the spirit ( as much as to say they may for ought you know have the holy spirit ) therefore they have it . To whom 't was repli'd , that it would not follow that I was at Canterbury such a day , because it did not appear to him that I was not : and this as I remember ( though your Account doth very freely forget all this , but I hope you will remember to be asham'd on 't ) was the very period of that mans Disputation with me , saving what he added after in his recapitulatory moderation , and after that in other emergent conferences with me and others , to whose non-sequiturs , as I have in faithfulness set down what I returned then , so ( pace vestrâ ) I say thus much more now , viz. that if I should go about to prove from the Possibility of things to be so or so , or from their non-appearance to be not so , though not yet appearing to be so , that therefore they are so , viz. more worlds then one , or another world of men in the moon , or , as he from the particular case of Iohn Baptist to other infants , so I should syllogize from the particular and extraordinary case of Balaams Ass to other creatures of that kind , viz. Balaams Ass , by a special power of God upon him , did speak and reprove the madness of the Prophet , therefore very Asses can speak plain enough to reprove the madness of the Priests , though I have learn'd Christ better then to record him as such a one for the like deduction , yet I know who have so well learn'd the Featlaean language , that in their Account I should have been an Ass for my labor . Secondly , and this I told you then too , but your Account had no mind to mention what makes against you , Tum demum i. e. proprìe et quoàd nos dicuntur res fieri cum incipiunt patefieri , then things as to us are when they appear and not before , and to talk de non entibus , et non apparentibus , is one as frivolous as the other : yet such lazy learning and lowzy logick is at Rome with the infatuated Pope , and such of his Creatures , as trouble themselves so much about Tyth , that they have no time to study Truth , nor understand either sense or reason , that whilst wise men indeed , whose wisdome is not as theirs is already turn'd into foolishnese , do argue from the Appearings of things to be to their being ; from the evidence that they are to their existence , they magisterially impose things to be received as truth , because Ipse Dixit , and both assert them to be , and make men believe they appear plain enough so to be , when their say so shews them , though no inquisitive sincere self-denying Christian can in the word find either how or where : of but a very little better stamp is your way of arguing here , who being hous'd by custom under a cloudy confidence that infants have the holy spirit , will needs have it appear whether it doth or no : but for my part it appears not yet to me ; yea , I reply Secondly , to this part of your Report , that I did indeed then say as you have here truly related , that it could not be made appear that Infants have the holy spirit to the making of them subjects of baptism ; yea , I testifie the same still that it cannot , notwithstanding all your undertakings , which of what little force they are to such a purpose I shall try more at large when I handle your Account over again , not as an Account , but as your Argumentation for Infants having the holy spirit , and so right to baptism . Nevertheless , Thirdly , that I acknowledged any such thing as this in the least , that the Scriptures above named , did seem so much as to intimate such a matter as that infants might have the holy spirit , as it had been most contradictory to that which here you say I said immediately after it , and is most contrary to my Judgement to this present , so I deny it , disclaim it , and testifie again it , as another of your abominable abuses of your selves , my self and the world , into which you have feigned forth this Account , and as an opinion that neither then , or ever since , nor ever before ( since I found the way of truth ) hath had the least entertainment within my bosom . And so I pass on to your other juggles , among which Nigro Carbone notandum est , this would not be let slip without a Selah in that some few lines below this you relate thus . Report . That my Answer was that in Scripture children were indefinitely taken , but concerning this or that particular child no proof could be made . Reply . Which thing I confess I said , yet take notice , I must , how you let slip ( your memories being willfully weak , as I find them very often to be ) something more of my then speech , which had you not declined to set down , would have shewed a little more plainly , and yet its prety plain as t is , but hardly quite so plain as the nose on a mans face , how you strike quite besides the iron , stear to a wrong point , and in your following undertaking upon that my Answer , stickle clearly to another purpose then that proposed by me , for my speech was not concern●ng this or that particular child only , but of this or that particular child above another , viz. proof could not be made of this child in its infancy , suppose a believers , more than of a Heathens , if one of these , and one of those be lookt on together ; whereupon also I then added , but you have absented it in your Account , that if two Infants , viz. a believers , and an unbelievers , as yet unknown which is which , should be presented to you whereof but one secundum te , ( o Sacerdos ) may be baptized , It would put you very shrewdly to it to discern of your selves which of the two is the believers Infant , by any more manifestation of the spirit in it than in the other ; yea I now tell you over again , that such a presentment would fumble , and puzzle both the Priest and his whole Parish , to find the Spirit more in one infant then in all ; but you have omitted all this lea●t it should do you too much right , and too much lay open the rottenness of your Principles , and yet you have set down enough to shew to any clear capacitie how you syllogiz'd besides the business I ingaged you in my speech to speak to , as well as meerly bawbled in the very business you found your selves , yea how odly did you shuffle over the thing you undertook to make Appear , shewing not an inch more of ground to prove it in one or two or three little Infants , then your own Argument affords to prove that t is in all Infants in the world ? but this being more proper to be discovered when I meddle with your Argument , therefore I shall let it pass in this place , where my drift is only to take notice how you have either counterfeited , or curtail'd most of that you pretend truly to Account for . Report . Another , and that no small abuse both of me , and your Reader too , is a little further onward in your Account , pag. 6. where after your relating of your selves asking , and of me answering you to three questions thus , viz. 1. Quest. how those men and women whom I had baptized did make it appear that they had faith , and the holy spirit ? Resp. By their profession . 2. Quest. Whether their Profession , since it is possible mightly , could make it appear infallibly . Resp. No. 3. Quest. What judgement then , I could pass upon them to be the subjects of baptism , as I called them , whether any other than that of Charity . Resp. That of Charitie . At last you leave me in the lurch , and bringing in your selves replying thus , viz. that you would have me pass the same judgement upon these little Infants of whom in general the Scripture hath given so good a report , and against whom in particular no exception can be raised , and the controversie between us was at an end . You shut me out from any share with you , at the end of this discourse , saying , ( but not at all shewing what I answered ) that to this I answered nothing in the least measure satisfactory , as the most judicious Auditors , being afterwards inquired of , did affirm . Reply . You speak right as to my answer to the three questions , for so I then replied as you say ; and have somewhat more to reply to those questions , when I shall consider them over again , as your Argumentative Conference , for now I deal with them only as Accountative : but Sirs , what a piece of Legerdemain is here , in that you record , that my answer to your last reply was not in the least measure satisfactorie , in the judgement of the most judicious Auditors , with whom it seems you consulted whether it were so or no , and yet shew not so much as a tittle of it ? you intimate sufficiently to our understandings , first , that there was an answer given , secondly , that you , who pretend to nothing more in your book then to give A true Account of what was argued and answered , were so well acqua●nted with that Answer , that you could have told what it was if you would , else how could you , and they , of whom you inquired , so sentence and censure it as not satisfactorie , unless you are , as I believe you are not , those natural bruit beasts Iude speaks of that speak evil of that they know not ? yet you give us not in the least measure to know , no not so much as the sum of what it was . Now as for my self , I must profess in the sight of the Lord I do not well remember my self , nor con I yet clearly recall it to mind what Answer I then gave to that passage , which if I did , I durst not but express it here , were it weak or strong , but because I do not , I therefore dare not meddle so much as to mention any , being resolved to repeat no more of either yours or mine , then my memorie assures me of the truth of : however I shall give answer to it anon , when I come to note it under a second notion : but as for your selves , who mind it so well that you pronounce it weak , I may well charge and challenge you implicit Accountants to give Account more expresly what it was that men may judge of it together with you , or else to acknowledge your selves , to be evill speakers of what you know not , or else witting concealers of what you both know , and pretend to be revealers and True Accountants of to all men ; or else that you here drive on your old design , which is to crie out Heresie , Schism , Error , Weakness , Vnsatisfactorine●s , &c. leaving men without the least leave , libertie , opportunitie , or advantage of trying whether things are yea or nay , as you call them ; or else that you would fain have men to be still stunn'd into that wonted blind belief of what you say at all adventures , or else that you cause men what in you lies to be unjust in determining of matters before they here them , for Qui statuit aliquid parte inaudita altera aequum licet statuerit haud aequus fuerit , He that judges a matter before he hears it , it is folly and shame unto him , Pro. 18.13 . or else that you have shamed your selves , injured me , mock't and mop'd all men , in giving an Account to them of things which yet you refuse to give an Account of ; or else lastly , that you have dealt , and I appeal to every ingenuous rational man whether you have not so done indeed , most unreasonably , most perfideously , most simulatorily , as else where , and well-nigh every where else you do , pretending plainly in your Preface , that you have rendred my Answers to my best advantage , whilest you both falsifie them for the most part where you mention them , and also mention the major part of them not at all , Report . Another and that a most manifest misrepresentatoin of things in this your true Account is this , in that immediately after your third main Argument , for all the rest are but appendicular to the first , drawn from the hopelesness of the salvation of Infants if their baptism be denied , I say immediately after that , without the least mention of any more , or hinting so much as in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there was any more , as if you would make all men know by these presents , that there was no more , you report thus , that there was no other Answer given by me to that Argument , nor yet to be expected , whereupon then one of the Ministers , being desired by the rest ▪ to put an end to the Disputation , spake as followeth : and so after the Relation of a certain recapitulation of the Arguments that had been urg'd , and the scribling ore of something more in a something more methodicall manner , and quaint composure then it was then spoken in , to which also , as it is a further pleading of Infants baptism I 'le speak more anon , in short you shut up the busines , and record the Disputation with me as then ended . Reply . But Sirs , will this be taken for A true Account think you , or A true Coun●terfeit rather , by wise men that were there present , when they shall see how you huddle over the matter in such hast , as to leave no less then half of it behind you ? what dispatching and patching up of things to an end you make , before your heads are half heated in the handling of them ; for verily as Hanun shamefully intreated Davids servants shaving o●● the one half of their beards , cutting off their clothes in the midst , and sending them away , 2 Sam. 10.4 . so have you dealt by the Disputation , cutting off the business by the buttocks , and so sending it out naked into the wide world : your [ THEN ] Sirs is a word out of joint : 't was not [ then ] but a pretty while after [ then ] before the Disputation came to this full point , which you have already brought us too in your Account , after which you say there was no other Answer given by me , nor to be expected , for as I often offered fuller Answer to all you urg'd in one intire Discourse , but that 't was an unseasonable motion in your Account p. 10. and in no wise so pleasing to your Priestly patience , as 't was to the peoples , to expect so long as to hear it , so there was much more then this uttered by some of your selves , though you give us not not so much as the sum of it in this your sum : Here 's but one particular mans influence toward the maintenance of Infant-baptism inserted here in your Account , viz. onely Mr. Willcocks ; this was he , who when had been the prime pleader in your cause , was afterward ( and good reason too , for he was the fittest for your turn , though not the truths ) very gravely desired by you ( how justly judge you ) to be judge in it , and to determine his own Disputation , and be the main moderator of what came out of his own mouth , and mine too ; a thing never heard of in Accademicall Disputations , the Rules of which you were so stiff to have us steer by , this was he , who ( if he were ( as not I but Report saies he was ) your special Pen-man in the Account , as he was your special spoks-man at the Disputation ) sets so light it seems by every mans else as to set down no mans Arguments , but his own : it 's like they were not very much to the matter , and indeed they were not , nor his neither , though his own are exprest for the most material : but better or worse there were more Arguments urg'd then these , one by a Scotchman , who then liv'd at Kenington , what he is call'd I know not , so well as whether , for he had a call to Dover since that , from whence whether he is now call'd I know not : he laid down his Argument in this form , viz. to whom the Covenant belongs to them the initiall seal of it belongs , but the Covenant belongs to infants , &c. but seeing me startle at his Anti-scripturall term , of Initial seal , by which he denoted baptism , whether he urg'd more , or what more he urg'd I remember not well , but I 'm sure he was at Ne plus ultrâ in that , for I durst not admit of that improper term , which made his Syllogism Sophisticall , and his Disputation ex falso suppositis , for he took it for granted by all men , that baptism ( as he call'd it ) is an initiall seal , about which yet sub judice lis est , it being doubted by many whether baptism be a seal at all , and deny'd by some , of whom I profess my self one so opinion'd , who in its due place shall ( I doubt not ) give good account on 't : there was likewise another Argument urg'd by Mr. Vahan , who from Acts 2. would have drawn the right of baptism to believers infants , and being askt whether those Peter then spake to were believers or unbelievers when he spake to them , and replying that they were believers , heard the contrary both clear'd by my self , and confessed by his Partner Mr. Prigg , my quondam friend unless I became his enemy that day because I told him the truth ) who convening with me in that , though not in the true Consequence of it , did however so contradict Mr. Vahan , that he came in to his help ore the shoulders , There were also two more Arguments ( besides these in the Account ) urg'd by Mr. Willcock , viz. one ex particulari , the other ex negativo ( as I took occasion to give a hint thereof above ) which he , or whoever was the p●n●man of these passages was ( it seems ) as little willing to own , as his own name , or his handy work it self : sundry more Arguings there were , and some Arglings also made by some who would have now and then a snatch and away , which me thinks you might have given a transient glance at , at least in A true Account , for your utter silence concerning which , you might justly be blamed , yet I blame you not much , when I consider how sensible you might easily be of liableness to more blame for the matters themselves , had you shewn them ( such untempered morter were they ) then can well be conjectured by you , you are now under , for letting them alone altogether . Report . Another flat falsification and abuse , of me and the world is this : you misreport me , and that in two places , viz. at the bottom of both your sixth and seventh pages , which makes you doubly guilty of that single fiction , as having confessed●hat ●hat circumcision was the seal of the Gospel Covenant , and that Ishmael who was that carnall seed of Abraham onely because born in Abrahams house had right to it and received it . Reply . That this is A true Account of what you then said I said , I dare not deny , but do deny it to be A true Account of what I said : whether you understood , or understood not my words I know not , but I utter'd not a word to such a purpose ; and were you not men minded to mis-understand , when to understand seems never so little to make against you , I make no doubt but to make your own true Account make you eat some of that you have here uttered : that Ishmael , who was Abrahams carnal seed , even meerly because born in Abrahams house had right to Circumcision , and received it , as every male so born also did , I confess I confessed , but denied all along that Circumcision was a seal ( as to Ishmael ) of the Gospel-Covenant , or that he had it under such a notion as a Seal at all ; I said it was a Seal to none save to Abraham , and that even to him 't was a Seal of not any thing at all save of the righteousness of the faith he had , which words ( in the sense I then expounded them ) are not meant of the Gospel-Covenant , but of that particular personal Covenant God made with him concerning his father-hood of the faihful , a peculiar privildege which God gave to him , and to none in all the world besides him ; as for Ishmael , yea , and Isaac himself they neither of them had it in this sense , as neither had they that Covenant , or promise of a father-hood which it was a Seal of ; though even Ishmael himself , and the lowest males in Abrahams house were all to be circumcised upon this account only , if if there had been no other , as he was commanded to circumcise all his males . As to a fuller account of my grounds for this opinion , I shall suspend it till I take my other Account of these passages in yours , and take notice only here first of your sacred Sophistication , in giving that out for granted which was so abundantly denied , Secondly , that close contradiction you here give , not onely to the truth but your selves also , for you give out in the next page but one before , that I denied Circumcision to be a seal of the Righteousness of faith , ( which in your own sense is as much as of the Gospel-Covenant ) to any of Abrahams posterity , and that I multipli'd words in proof of the contrary , and yet here in relation to that very Relation of your own , in the weak wilfulness of your memories , you give out that I had confessed Circumcision to be ( even to Ishmael ) the seal of the Gospel-Covenant , that is , with you still , of the righteousness of faith ; thus for your own ends fathering your own false-tenet upon me , ye have not lost all by the shift , for you have fastn'd the fault of sorgery upon your selves ; and this puts me in mind of another of your mis-reports , which because t is so suitable to this I 'le give you some little sense of it here , though I find it farre off hence in your Review p. 13. l. 1.2 . where looking , or rather licking over all your arguments again , as somewhat rude and deform'd in their first delivery , and among the rest , this from Circumcision of infants to their baptism , you positively affirm thus , that the Adversaries confess baptism to be the seal of the Gospel-Covenant ; whereas , if by Adversaries you mean your friend my self , among others , besides what else shall elsewhere be produced in proof of my dissent from you in this point , your selves can bear me witness , or ( if you will not ) a thousand others will , that on the very day of Disputation , when the Clergy-man of Kenington stiled baptism an initial seal , I deni'd it to be a seal at all , and am sure it would have found you all more work , then you are aware of , to have made good that un-gospel like expression of it , though I grant it to be a sign of the Gospel-Covenant . Report . Another as flat a falsi●y as ever fell from the mouths or pens of men , who pretend to truth , is that clause which lies in the last line of the seventh page , and first line of the eighth , wherein consider it with the words before , you say I confessed that the spiritual seed of Abraham and their children , had under the Gospel as good right to the seal thereof , which is baptism , as Ishmael who was that carnal seed of Abraham , had right to the seal of the Gospel-Covenant , Circumcision . Reply . Whereas , besides my constant denial of Circumcision to be a seal to any but Abraham ( as I said immediately above , and as your selves testifie of me ) and besides my denial of baptism to be a seal at all , I either did deny the children of the spiritual seed , i. e. of believers to have right to baptism , or else to what purpose did you oppose me ? for this was the very question between u● ; which as you affirm'd so I from the beginning to the end of the Disputation all along most inalterably deny'd . Indeed I confessed ore and ore again , that Abrahams spiritual seed , i. e. believers have right to baptism , but that the natural seed of this spiritual seed of Abraham , are Abrahams spiritual seed ( as so born ) or that believers children ( qu● tales ) are semen fidei , as well as their parents , is a most silly saying of your own , page 14. but that which all the day long I most strenuously stood against , much more that they were the subject of baptism , yet you say here in the Preter-plu-perfect tense , that I had confessed their right to baptism , as good as Ishmaels to Circumcision , which me thinks ( if I had done so ) would have been exprest some where or other in the foregoing part of your true Account , or else it is not so true as 't would be taken for ; but sith it is not to be found that I confest such a thing in all your Relation of the most materiall things that past , among which this ( had it been confest as you here say ) had been the most materiall of all , for it had been the full giving you the cause , and saving you the labor of more Disputing ) we 'l take it for granted ( if you please ) rather then charge your true Relation of the most materiall things , as not relating the most materiall of all , that this your Testimony of my confession of this matter , is most prodigiously false and abusive : Sirs , I wonder you are not ashamed so palpably to speak contrary to what you have here recorded : I know not well what you mean by so many foul mis-reports , unless as a certain great Benefactor to the Romish religion , perceiving it unable to stand by the Scriptures , bestowed a Legend of lyes towards its support , which is call'd Legenda aurea , so you supposing your Infant-baptism uncapable to be maintain'd any longer by principles of truth and reason , have thereupon been so bountiful to the cause , as to give in this golden-leaden-legend . Another sorry tale , and strange story you tell is not of me , but of one of my side ( as you are pleased to speak ) and this ( me thinks ) if I be not mistaken , with a kind of Emphasis of the Featlean strain , as if it were some presumption for a Russet Rabby , or secular Artizan to climb so high , and flutter , and sile so neer the pulpits , and pompous Belconies of the Priests , and as if he were a man Sacerdotalis ambitionis , loving the uppermost Room , and chief place in the Synagogue , more to be taken notice of himself , then that the truth should be taken notice of by the people , in which things if you muse as you use , yet know Sirs that we have no such custome , nor the Churches of God , of whom you say thus . Report . That having plac'd himself on the highest of the pulpit stairs , to be seen of all and craved the liberty granted by the propositions to ask questions , and receive satisfaction , he profest himself a stranger , and to come thither by accident , though both afterwards appeared contrary . Reply . Though both will yet appear to be contrary to what you would have them appear to be if you could tell how , viz. a couple of untruths , for verily he was a stranger , and so I then told Mr. Prigg , who askt me of him , that had not been long in the Countrey , and was unknown both by face and name , not to my self and some others , yet however to most of that Auditory , in which I believe not one of many could say who , or whence he was ; as to his coming thither by accident , so he did too , i. e. unappointed and unsent for , in which sense I 'm sure some of you came not by accident , but as specially bespoke in the name of a great Patron of your Party , both to be there , and undertake the business , and appointed , if not primarily , yet secondarily , or upon their refusal , for whom some too confidently undertook they should undertake it , who yet say of your selves page 3. you were not the men appointed to undertake it ; if by accident you mean thus , as well you may , for a man may come by accident enough to a place though he doth not drop out o th' clouds , or slide down thither from the moon , that worthy friend and beloved Brother , under which name I the rather own him here , because I had a letter from a prime one of your Party that speaks somewhat scoffingly of that compellation , and besides though with Dr. Featly , and his faction he is one of the Clergy of Laicks , and an Apron Levite , yet as his name is Temple-man , so I take him to be a better Church-man then many a one , who for not troubling his people with too much truth goes under the Denomination of a good one ; this man I dare say as far as he said he came by accident so farre he came by accident as he said , and this proves your hearsay , for its like so you had what you here say , to be Heresie if an erring from the truth may , as I know not why not , be so stiled in civill matters , as well as spirituall : And this conducts me to another figment wherein you father as false a thing upon my self , as any of those you seigned of me before , which is at the bottom of that discourse , which you record as passing between your selves and him , concerning justification of Dying infants , whether it be by faith or without it , in which discourse , though the folly of your opinion in that point , and truth of his , which is also mine , namely , that dying Infants are justified without faith , I shall shew in due time and place , yet I cannot but take notice by the way , before I speak of that which more concerns my self , of some Legerdemain and illogicall dealings of yours with him . Report . Reporting him asserting thus , viz that there may be justification which is not by faith , you report your selves replying thus , page 9 , that it is the grossest piece of Popery to hold justification by works , and not by faith onely , and the greatest controversie between them and Protestants . Reply . What shameful Sophistry have you shewn here in foisting in a foolish phrase and term that was neither used , nor touched on by him in any of his fore-going speeches , nor yet in that which your reply most immediately relates to , viz. Iustification by works ; whereas you know well enough even as well as he , and I , and the rest that were there ( for your wits could not be so far gone a wool-gathering as to need Hellebor here ) that he neither spake nor meant of Iustification by works , whether without faith or with it , but of the Iustification of Infants without either faith or works , neither of which , as your selves confess , they are in infancy capable to act , although you say , but if a man will not believe you he may chuse for there 's neither Scripture , sense , nor reason for it , they have the habit ; this , I say again , you know to be the sence of such as you call Anabaptists , witness your selves in two places , viz. p. 8. where you give account of our opinion thus , viz , That way of the presentment of the righteousness of Christ without faith is a figment of the Anabaptists , also p. 15. thus , the adversaries are put to their shifts to find out a new way for the salvation of infants dying in their minority viz. the presentment of the satisfaction of Christ without faith : in both which places you give the world to understand , that you know our opinion to be that infants are justified by neither works , nor faith , which is a work , but , if at all , by that which your selves hold is the material cause of the justification of men that act faith , and of whom , they being capable to act faith , it is required as instrumentall , viz. the righteousness of Christ : secondly , you know that this opinion is farther off , and more flatly contradictory to that Popery , that holds Iustification by works then yours can possibly be found to be , for the very Iesuits may have some colour for saying that you say the same with them whilst their Tenet is justification by works , yours by faith , which say they , and truely too , is a work , theirs by faith , and works concurrent , yours by faith that hath works concomitant , and necessarily consequent thereunto : between which two doctrines , ( neither of which need be so much condemned each by other ( for ought I find ) as they are ( provided that all merit on our part be cashiered ( for there Rome errs besides us all ) for you will find them both true in the end , viz. that both are instrumentally subservient , and not either of them alone to the justification of ( not Infants but ) men , and women of whom both as well as one are required in order unto life ) be●ween which two , I say , there 's not so vast a difference as you deem there is , much less so great as is between these , viz. Iustification by works and faith both , which is that of the Papists , and Iustification without either faith or works , which is that of ours , when we speak of justification with reference to infants only , for between these there 's not the least colour of coincidence , yet this was that justification that Inquirer spake of , viz. of Infants by Christ without faith , or any other work either , which you know is no part of Popery , yet first you reply besides the business , which he spake to , and define , it gross Popery to hold justification by works , as if he had held it , yea secondly which is worse , and down-rightly injurious , you are not ashamed to tell-tale him to the world in the words below that he fell into this popery , and that for asserting of a Iustification of Infants , so farr as they need any , neither by faith nor works , but Christ without either , so much as instrumentall on their part , then which you see nothing more fully contradicts it : if ye were blind indeed you had not sin'd so much in this , but sure you cannot but see how you shuffle , therefore without repentance your sin remaineth . Another thing I take notice of by the way as I travel toward that fiction I mention above , as referring to my self , is this . Report . That when the quere was put to you by the inquirer ( as you call him ) what need infants have of being justifyed at all since they have no original sin ( which whether it were put for satisfaction in the thing , or meerly to hear how readily you would resolve it I cannot say ) you bring in one of the Ministers in the name of the rest crying out , as before of Popery , so now of Pelagianism , and that he had not heard so much Heresie in so few words , that the inquirer should take heed how he vented himself in publique hereafter , for it became him to suspect himself least God had given him over to the Spirit of error , and to another that out of the body of the Congregation replyed , That that way which you the Ministers called Heresie so wershipt they God : you : go on still in the old tone thus , that you were sorry to hear him profess himself a Papist and a Pelagian in saying he worshipt God that way , and that you appealed to me , praying me to declare my mind concerning these things , whether they were Heresie or no , which you charged the inquirer with . Reply . But not a word all this while was uttered either to prove the things to be as you call them , or towards the satisfaction of the Auditory , or Inquirer himself in the question : Sirs , is not this the clutter you commonly keep ? is not this the Clergies constant custome of confuting , and their wonted way of with-holding men from all audience of what ever comes cross to your conceits when on the sudden you have not what to say against it , viz. to break out into hydeous out-cries of Heresie , Schism , a Spirit of Error , an Anabaptist , an Arminian , an Antinomian , a Papist , a Iesuit , Popery , Pelagianism , Socianism , Arminianism , and such like ? when happily not five of fifty among you ever read Pelagius , Faustus Socinus , or Arminius so as to know what they hold , and why , any more then by tradition one from another : mistake me not , for I am now neither justifying , nor condemning these men , with whom , they being dead , I have no great matter to do , nor you neither , but that you love to find your selves more business then you need , for my part my business lieth mainly in the Word , which is the Rule , and being only attended to may ( for ought I know ) sooner set us to rights then either Austin , or Pelagius , the Remonstrants , or Arminius : for Regula est mensura sui et obliqui , but I here take notice of , and take occasion to condemn the Popish practise of most Priests in Dam●ing down for heresie in gross what they neither disprove , not prove to be Heresie when called to 't ; by their own calling it so before the people . Report . You relate upon your praying me to declare my mind concerning those things , whither they were Heresie or no , which you the Ministers charged the inquirer with , that I said I knew that what ere he said , yet he did not hold those things , and that your reply was that the inquirer was a stranger , and th●rfore you wondered his mind should be so well known to me , that whatever his opinion was , the question being whether his saying that one may be justified without faith , and that children are not born in originall sin were heresie or no ? you desired me to answer positively to that but received no Answer . Reply . As to this Politick piece of your report , wherein I perceive how fallaciously you represent me as rendering the inquirer as to my knowledge , speaking contrary to his own mind , I have many things to say , and it matters not much which I be-begin with first . First , me thinks I see ( as you have set things down , a certain Sophism of Amphiboly ly lurking iustar anguis in herbâ , in these words [ Those things ] as you express them the second time in this parcel ; by reason of which if they be not understood by the Reader in a right sence , I am set forth by you as guilty of a double crime , from censure of which I see a call to clear my self , and my friend , whom you strive to stain together with in that case , that truth may suffer dammage by us in nothing : for if by [ those things ] be meant in that second place those two opinions of Iustification of infants without faith , and their not having original sin , which were indeed the things that he said , then I am falsly reported ( not to say fowly belied ) by you in that passage , wherein you relate me saying thus , viz. that I knew that , whatsoever the inquirer had said , ye● he did not hold those things , and am made also to speak falsly against my conscience ( as my conscience tells me not that I did in all that day ) for verily , as great a stranger as that inquirer was to your selves , and the major part then present , yet he was not such a stranger ( saving all your wonder ) to my self , but that his mind was so well known to me in that , that I knew he held those things , viz. that infants have all the justification they have need of without faith , and have no originall sin , for I hold them my self , in what sence , since you ask me , you shall see by and by , and if I should have said thus , viz. that I knew , what e're he said , ye● he did not hold those things , I should have been both a b●lyar of that my friend , and also as very a lyar as your selves , Sirs , would herein fain make me seem to be , but I was both well a ware what he held , and confident that he did not say those things , and not hold them ; But if by those things in that place be understood not those two opinions , but those things which the Minister charg●d the Inquirer with , viz. Heresie , Popery , the tenet of justification of Infants by works , which were those things the Ministers so cried out upon him for , in which sence it is in my speech to be understood , then t is no other then the plain truth , which I spake , and to give you all the advantage that is possible to have by them , I here say it again , that I knew that whatsoever was then said by that our brother , yet he held not those things , i. e. that Heresie and Popery you then falsly accused him of . And now sith you complain that you received no answer when you desired me to answer positively to that question whether Infants are justified without faith , and have any originall sin , yea or no , and whether the things , as we hold them in contradistinction to your selves , be heresie yea or no , as you call them ; I must complain of your selves as the sole persons then in fault that you received not as full an answer as you desired , for I appeal not only to the whole people but to the same page of your own p●pers also , wherein , in the very next line but one or two below this , in which you charge me , with the fault of giving you no answer , your own selves are witnesses to me that I offered to answer you to all exceptions you had against us in an Entire Exercise , which if you had heard , and not lik't you should have had libertie enough to have replied to as long as you pleased , but your selves only opposed it with all your might : but to wave any further recrimination as concerning that at present , and that you may have no occasion in future to feig● , as if we feared to answer you so positively whether those things , viz. Infants Iustification without faith , and their freedome from that , which , not so much in Scripture language , as by an Epithite of mens own coining is called originall sin , be heresie or no , I answer no : as to the first though , Iustification of Infants by works is the Heresie of a Romish Clergy , whether by works we mean the work of faith Ioh. 6.29 . or any other , yet Iustification of Infants without that work of faith or any other work , either of their parents or their own , is the truth as it is in Iesus , and such sound Doctrine as , notwithstanding your outcries of gross popery , and I know not what upon it , you will never with right reason refute while you breath : as for the other of those things , viz. infants not having originall sin , two questions may be askt concerning this , viz. whether they have it ? secondly , whether they ever had it if you ask whether they ever had any ? I answer , that , as to hold dying infants to be damned unless they believe , which is your doctrine , is as to the poor little ones at least that cannot believe somewhat too damnable a Heresie , so to say that infants never had the sin of Adam so much as imputed to them ( how farr forth it may possibly be to a person , in whom yet is no inherent corruption , is seen in Christ , who had the imputation of sin to him though none in him ) is for ought I have ever found , yet to the contrarie nor a truth : but if your quere be whether infants have any guilt as from Adams sin abiding on them after birth ? I reply , that as in order of nature Infants must stand guilty by the first Adams sin , before they can be said to be justified by the righteousness of the second , so in order of time I believe them universally to be no sooner guilty , as from Adam , then clear'd by Christ , which Tenet , he that tryes it , will find it ( I perswade my self ) so farre from meriting to be cried out on for Heresie , ( as it is at random by the Clergy ) that it rather comes as nigh to truth , as 4 pence to a groat : but such a Bug-bear makes the Priest , of what ere suits not with his wonted imagination , that almost all is damnable that differs from him , and what ere he meets out of the Kings high-way , or sees Sectarizing from the common Rode of his own Cloudy conception , and Clericall , Cassicall , Convocationall , Canonicall constitution , he draws at it presently , as a thief that comes to Rob him , commits it to prison , and condemns it all to be hang'd for Heresie before he hears it . Report . You relate that after that none did propound any more questions . Reply . As if all men had been so astonished at your understanding and answers , as they were at Christs , that none durst open their mouthes before you any more that day ; yet some would with the help of Christ have ventured to have told the truth in your presence , but ( to your praise be it spoken ) as you speak below of your selves , you would not let them . Report . So ( say you ) the Congregation was again dismist . Reply . An argument of your itching after an end , and being well nigh betwatled to be gone , if the people had not been more forward to quere after truth , then the Priest was willing to Answer , for all his liberty granted in the seventh Article , and his pretended forwardness to resolve page 27. where disswading men from going to seducers , you advise them ( as from God ) to ask the Priest : and if others had not been more free to both , then the Preachers were either to Preach or hear . As for what follows , 't is not so much a model of mis-reports , and mis-representations ( as thus farre of your Account is , for the most part ) as of true reports and representations of some few more of the Ministers mis-apprehensions , mis-affections and mis-actions , under a colour of acting for the truth . Report . You say that your Respondent hindred their departure by making an unseasonable motion , viz. that they would hear him preach . Reply . Emphatically even to a scoff , that they would hear him preach , aliàs Sirs , give Account in an intire discourse , and this too after his offer to hear any of you first if you would , but you would not , of what he held , and why ; which was the very business he profest to come thither for , more then to dispute , aliâs to shew upon what grounds he invaded the practise of the Church of England , Scotland , Rome , &c. in her infant sprinkling , which say you ( in words ) in the fifth Article he ought to have done , but here in your deeds and denial of it , that he ought not : Do you think that all ( save such as have eyes and see not ) discern not your dawbing , your double-dealing , and your Egypt-like requiring men to make brick allowing no straw , dela●ing that 't is our Duty to shew our grounds , yet prohibiting our discharge of it , pressing people to prove all things , yet not abiding they should hear all th●ngs , tes●ing your Respondent that in reason he should have been opponent , yet yielding him no opportunity on that day to urge so much as one argument , though he offere'd it , much less yielding to be responsible to him on the next ; magnifying preaching as much as any , yet withstanding it more then all , and making it an unseasonable motion almost at any time , ( save when time comes by course ) to make mention of it ; as if any time were unseasonable for that which is strictly to be attended at all times by Christs Ministers , both in season , and out of season also 2 Tim. 4.1 , 2. Report . This required some time to debate . Reply . As well it might , being a matter of weighty concernment on both hands , viz. of consequence too advantagious to truth , as well as dangerous to your falshoods ; besides , the more time was taken up in debating against it , so much the less time , if it fortuned to be cast that way , that it must be done , would be left to do it in . Report . The Ministers opposing it . Reply . And lying in the manger , having no mind to hear themselves , nor yet that those should who had a mind to it , having the key of knowledge , the keys and power of that place , yet neither abiding there , nor abiding that others should abide there to so precious a purpose ; which is so much to their commendation , that men must needs see them to be not like Christs Ministers , for if they had , they would have rejoiced in Christs being preached , whether in pretence , or in truth , of envy or good will , well knowing all should have tended to the furtherance of the Gospel , Phil. 1.15 , 16 , 17 , 18 Ob. And if they object that preaching of error will hinder it . Ans. I say that publishing whether of error or truth , gives that advantage of trying all things , which as it is that duty men cannot do , unless they hear all , so that which they might not do by any means in ages above , when the Arch-Hereticks the Pope , and the Priest-hood stopt the mouths of all Hereticks , save their own : besides , it puts people into a fairer capacity of right cariage towards all things , viz. if they appear truth ( though cri'd out on as error ) of imbracing them , if error indeed ( as much of the Priestly doctrine is under a name of truth ) of declining it , and all this upon none of that implicit , but that explicit faith , which onely becomes him that will be a Christian , not in name onely , but in very deed : and all this the Ministers know as well as I , page 24. affirming preaching to be a better way to oppose the approach of Heresies , then that of disputing ; wherupon , though they stirre up one another to oppose in preaching the growth , and propagation of what they call Anabaptism , to prevent peoples departure to the truth , yet are they ( and I cannot blame them , they knowing no better way , and seeing how fast their old friends fall from them , by the late light that is risen up from under their dark night of traditions ) as carefull to keep all from their pulpits , save such as sing to the same tune with themselves , though we never speak , but we give them leave , which is more then they give us in the like case , to take their exceptions . Report . Saying , that the end of their meeting was to dispute . Reply . Which if it were , yet the foolishness of preaching might possibly have done the Disputer more good then his Dispute ; besides , the end of my coming was to give Account of the way you call Heresie wherein we worship , and why I call yours Heresie , and that truth : and sith I freely granted the Ministers their end , 't was but unreasonable in them ▪ ( their own turn being once serv'd ) to frustrate mine . Report . That the Disputation was now determined . Reply . By its own opponent , and therefore that exercise being ( as fully as fouly ) ended 't was ( I told you ) the more lawful , fair , fit , and seasonable to begin another . Report . That it was neer 7 of the clock . Reply . Yet not mid-night , much less break of Day , as 't was when Paul continued preaching , and discoursing at a place , where he knew not whether he should ever preach again , Act. 20.7.11 . Report . That the Dispute had lasted above six hours . Reply . Whether there was so much as six hours dispute or no I doubt , however , I 'le not cal you to Account for this , but excuse you , for sith you counted every hour seven till you were gone , it might well seem to you no less then 16. yet Sirs give me leave , was there indeed six hours , and more past all in Disputation ? I pray Sirs , what 's become of the odd five and a half ? did you press them to death i th' Press , or lose them i th' Ashes , whetein you had a design to have smothered it all ? for as clean as you would seem to have rak't it out , here 's no more return'd to give Account of it self then this small parcell , which is scarce the tenth : See therefore that the rest be forth coming , for here is but meer Pigmee semi-demi doings : and besides gentlemen , me thinks your tale hangs not handsomely together with the thing told , for , if there were six hours work indeed , how is it you repeat no more ? or if there were no more then this half an hours reading , how is it you give so large an Account of it here ? or must we conceive you to have two true Accounts , one in this clause , which stories the length of the Dispute to be six hours , the other in your book it self , which disputes ore all that long dispute again before the world , that it might have the true cognizance of it , in little more then the sixth part of one ? of which two true Acounts ( for so you would have us account them to be both ) if the one be a true Account then for certain ( sith they come not neer one another , by five hours , and an half ) the other is a false true one , or a true false one which you please , for howbeit , a man may of a six hours discourse say in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in less then six minits that it was six hours long , and that there were many Arguments , and Answers in it , yet if he take on him to relate ore the Discourse it self , and the Arguments and Answers themselves , and account ( as you pretend to do ) pro toto integrali , at least for the most materiall parts thereof , he must either afford it more then six times six minits space to play in , and that 's more then you have allow'd your Account , or else 't was a long nothing indeed . Some creepholes I see you make for your selves , whereat to get out from the shame of that disproportion between your words here , which are S●squi-pedalia , shewing the work to be six hours long , and the work it self , which is like a Span ; for you tell us in your Preface , t is but a short Relation you pretend to ; yet know Sirs that too little is too little in all conscience : neither can you lick your selves whole of all absurdity ; whilst in two seveveral sententious Descriptions you speak of no less then six hours , so hoysing up your Reader into an Expect●aion of something worth looking after , and then shut him off with this Skeleton , or short shew of not half the sum , but some of one half , some scraps , and broken bits of the business , whereof the fag-end of all , viz. how the bells began to play their parts against our preaching , when you had done , by the appointment of who knows not whom ? a matter as well worth hearing as much of yours , is left out altogether : so then Sirs , here 's two Accounts of your Dispute , a long-short one , and a short-long one , for t is Epitomiz'd well nigh to nothing : sith t is as t is , you might do well , unless you can help 's to that odd remnant of five hours and a half , which is either shrunk away for shame , or else snipt off from the whole piece , whilst you were cutting out of it this short-close-coat wherewith to cover your nakedness , to summon it back to the press , and thence sign it out again for a true Counterfeit : but supposing you 'l save your selves so much labor , as to take shame to your selves for your Demi-dealings , I have here done it to your hands , to save your Reader the labor of being cozen'd . Report . And many ( say you ) were wearied . Reply . And will be more , as well as more then your selves will be before this disputation and the effects thereof have done working in their hearts that heard it , or that conjunction which was Iuly 27th 1649. which began its operation most to'th'purpose , when you prest it out , wil cease to be ominous , and of ill influence in the Clergies climate . Report . And many had far to go . Reply . And some so farre that night , as was pretended , that in order there unto I hear they took horse the next day in the afternoon . Report . One of the Congregation reply'd , say you , that he hoped you the Ministers would not hinder the preaching of the word , or call any time unseasonable for that , the Ministers answered , that they magnified preaching as much as any , yet must needs tell them the Apostle makes it inferior to charity , and that when charity was in danger to be violated by it , it were but Christian prudence to omit it . Reply . Antichristian priestly-popely - pollicy ( if ye will ) but neither Christian prudence , nor Pastor-like pitty , nor Peter-like piety , nor Pauls charge to Timothy 2 Tim. 4.1.2 . which was to preach the Word , and be instant in season and out too , to reprove , rebuke , exhort , &c. with all long suffering and doctrine . Ob. But some there would have been griev'd at it , in which case better to have omitted it in charity , then hazzard hatreds by performance . A●sw . Some there ( its like ) would not have indur'd it , yet is that no plea whereupon to omit it , for then we must preach no more Gospel to the world , which sets two against three , and three against two , and occasions ( not causes ) by means of mens lusts opposing it , more sword then peace at present , Luke 12.51 , 52 , 53. Yea , the time will come ( and now is ) when men , ( yea Ministers ) will not indure sound Doctrine , but after their own lusts , heap to themselves teachers , ( and what heaps upon heaps of false teachers are there in all Christendom ? for the Clergy have made themselves many as the locusts , many more then to every parish one , tickling men up still with an omnia benè in a bad condition , even when for their sakes Isa. 24. omnia penè penitus peritura sunt ) and will turn away their ears from the truth , and be turned unto fables of mens feigning , but watch thou in all things , indure afflictions , do the work of an Evangelist , fulfill thy ministry , 2 Tim. 4.3 , 4 , 5. Report . That the Congregation consisted of two sorts of men and women , whose opinions were different , that there was a danger of a breach between them , that as they came together , and had behav'd themselves quietly all the time , so they might be permitted to depart , that the mischie●s which follow Division , are easier prevented then heal'd , &c. Reply . Great indeed are the mischiefs that follow Divisions , they are more easily prevented then heal'd , but as sure as the Lord lives , and his word hath any truth in 't the Divisions of these dayes , the mischiefs of which ( and that 's the best on t ' ) will light most upon the tripple Tower of BBBabel , even the Tripple CCCrown and Kingdome of the CCClergy , out of whose clutches God is going to redeem his Captive Clergy , the height of which Tower he will bring down to the Earth , even to the dust , these Divisions ( I say ) will neither be prevented nor healed , notwithstanding all indeavours to that purpose , till that be fully accomplisht , which this Division of Languages truly tends to in the Councels of God , viz. the utter shattering and disabling of these great Babel-builders , so that their Ambitious projects shall come to a Perpetual end ; till then , breach upon breach cannot be avoided : while the Earth was , as in old time of Priestly pomp it was , of one language , and of one speech all saying , nemine contradicente , as the Pope said , all worshipping as the Priest-hood appointed , all believing as the Church believed , there was so much Charity to the Churches peace , that all truth was choakt under the name of Schism for the sake on 't ; the builders , by whom the corner-stone is still refused , saying one to another , go to , let us build us a City , and a Tower , whose top may reach to heaven , let us make us a name , and nothing was restrained from them , which they imagined to do by advantage of this their unity and uniformity of speech , and Religion ; but now God is coming down to view the great Tower , this Pompous Kingdom of Priests ; and finding it swell up to heaven , above the stars of God , over all , on earth at least , that 's called God , he sayes go to , let us go down , and confound their language , that they may not understand one anothers speech● whereupon , as the great City is split in three parts , so each of these will be subdivided more and more , into Sectaries of all sorts , so that men understand not now the language of the Pope and Priest-hood , nor will Christs sheep hear the voice of those strangers , by which Division of tongues , if that Great City cease to reign , and that montanous Babell come down , and become a plain before Zerubabel , as it must , t is not so devillish as Divine a Division , which all are not so sorry for as some , whose Alas is lamented back again with Hallelujah : yea , let the day break more and more , and the shadows flie away , and my beloved be like a Ro● or young hart , hasting ore these mountains of B●ther , i. e. Division , Cant. 2.17 . And now as to the peoples being permited to depart , I know none were held there against their wills , besides your selves , yea , both you and they too that would , might have gon in peace , and those that would , might have staid in peace , had you not troubled all with your oppositions : if such as had a mind to stay , had been as peaceably permitted to abide , as you who had such a mind to be out , were peaceably permitted to depart , for any hinderance you had from us , all might have been full as well ( for ought I know ) as now it is . Report . Next you relate , I not hearkning to the Reasons of the Ministers , it was at last referred to the Minister of the place being there present , and he desired to declare whether he would give way to my preaching , which he refusing to do , upon the reasons before said , one of the Congregation began to utter some words tending to a Commotion , viz. that he had nothing to do with them , that they would do it without his leave , and the like , whereupon the Ministers conjured me , whose interest they observed to be so great in the people , by the bonds of Charity , the candor , and Sobriety of a Christian , and ingenuity of a Scholar , that I would dissolve the Congregation , that they might part without professed hostility , that there would great disgrace light upon their meeting , besides dangers which they did foresee , if I did not , that if I persevered in my motion , they did protest openly before the Congregation against it , and did charge upon me whatsoever inconveniency should follow , so being perswaded , I went out of the Church with the Ministers , and the Congregation followed . Reply . I saw not so much as a grain of reason in all you spake , in prevention of so innocent , and in it self inoffensive a purpose as that was , to render a reason of my faith to a people that expected it from me , and were ( as your selves were not ) then and there so willing to hear it : whereupon I neither did nor durst decline the doing of it upon any such account as convicted that by right I ought not to have done it ; nevertheless I must confess when I saw such conjuring , such sensles scar-crows , such reasonles referrings , such rigid refusings , such crooked constructions ready to be made by the Ministers of mens words , as Commotions , when very parishioners , who pay Peter-pence both to the Presbyter , and the place , onely pleaded their Priviledge to be there , without his leave , such Emulous observations of the Ministers how great or little my interest was in the people , such desires of me to dissolve the Congration , rather then resolve them by an exercise about the truth of baptism , by the bonds of Charity , as if they were to bind us from other duty , by the candor and sobriety of a Christian , as if this lay chiefly , in forbearing to publish the Gospel of Gods grace to the sons of men for fear of displeasing , by the ingenuity of a Scholar , which makes many a one forget his integrity as a Minister , such a sense as profest hostility to them likely to be put upon it by the Ministers , if I refused to go out with them , or taried there to do service to God , such fearful foresights of great disgrace likely to light upon their meeting , and dangers of I know not what , unless of the downfal of their way , which the Ministers had more then all others , if the Auditory were not dismist without a Sermon , such hydeous apprehensions as they had , and direful representations as they made to the people of Chymaera's , non entities , things that neither were , nor were like to be , and of they knew not what inconveniency would follow , such chargings of all , lastly , upon my self if I offered to preach there to the people , when I saw ( I say ) such horrible affrightments at it , and such abominable deal of do made by Ministers against so harmless a motion , as a Ministers preaching in one of their publick places , to hundreds that were then ready to hear him , who also would have spoken nothing but the truth , or else have given them all or as many of them as would have staid free liberty to rectifie him if he had not , I was so ashamed to see it , that for very shame I was perswaded to express that love which I truly bear to their persons , though I contest with their corruptions , so farre as in a loving manner to walk out with them , and rather , then offend them further then needs must , to perform that service to the truth without dores , which with their leave might as well have been done within . Report . You relate that one of you then spake to me as followeth , that I would seriously consider into what a dangerous Error I was fallen . Reply . Aliàs a Dangerous truth , that will danger the undoing of you one way or other , and that whether you imbrace it or no : for if you do , it will spoil you here , and strip you stark naked of much of your earthly excellencies and enjoyments , and expose you to such ridiculosity , as to be owls and fooles among the rest of your Cloth , that imbrace it not , for though if you deny your selves , follow Christ , and suffer with him here , you shall reign with him hereafter , and yours shall be that Kingdom of heaven , yet you will lose your Kingdom here on earth : but if you imbrace it not , specially when spoken to your consciences , it will judge you at the last day , and be your condemnation for ever . Report . And not onely so , but that I was the cause of the fall of many others . Reply . And of the fall of many more may I be if it be the will of God , if they fall no further then from the Scribes to the Scriptures , but if they fall away from that truth we walk in , after they have known , and own'd it , as t was foretold many should do , and too many accordingly now do , separating themselves from the true Congregations of Christ , since their separation from the false , sensuall having not the spirit , that fall will be on their own score , and not on mine . Report . That I would saddly remember what Saint Austen saith of Arrius , that his pains are multiplyed in Hell , as often as any one departs into his Heresie . Reply . A sadd thing indeed , and seriously to be laid to heart by you , and me , as not onely Professors but Promotors also to our power of different waies , whereof one only can be the truth , for the danger will ly on their side that hold the Heresie , and hold it up , and not at all on the others . Report . That I would consider what arguments had been used , and how unsatisfactory my Answers were . Reply . So I have done o're , and o're again already since you urg'd them , and , upon occasion of your impression of them , am concerned to consider them more closely yet then ever , and having now well-nigh finisht this animadversion of your Account 't is the very thing I am to go upon by and by ; and what ere my answers were then , it matters not , if they were too short then for want of time , and liberty from you to utter them , I shall take liberty to speak the more home to your matter now . Report . That I would not resist the spirit of God. Reply . But I am to try the Spirits whether they be of God or no , a thing which you are not yet too much guilty of , unless it be of neglecting it , or else I may resist him unawares : if after-triall , and experience of him , I with stiff neck resist his strivings with me to own the truth he manifests to me , and leads me to , as I know when I was ready to do , even when he began to enlighten me first in that part of Christs will he here holds out to your selves , and as they did who stoned Stephen in malice , when they could not resist with clearer light the spirit by which he spake to them , it is hazzardable whether I shall have forgiveness or no , in this world or that to come , or you either if this , as God forbid it should , ever prove to be your case . Report . That I would remember that though in this unsettled and distracted Church I did not fear being called to any Account for my doctrines , yet I must appear before the dreadful judgement seat of Christ , who is the patron of Paedo-baptism , praying God to give me a right understanding , you took your leave and departed . Reply . Though your Church cannot call me to an Account at all , if it be a Church of Christ indeed , I being none of it , the Church judging such only as are within her , and not those without , yet I shall be willing to give it to the utmost in the stricktest way wherein your Church could , as a Church , expect it of me , or bring me to it if I were a member of it , which way is not haling to prison hanging , and burning , the wonted way of your Churches dealing with falsly supposed Hereticks , and should that be the way I should I trust in God submit to give Account in 't rather then deny the truth , but it is demanding a reason of mens different faith , and as they find it unsound admonishing , reproving , and in case of non-amendment rejecting , disowning , but if your Church , and its Ministery be like each other , I find not your Church so forward to call us to this Account of our faith , for you her Ministery do utterly refuse to accept when we offer it : how often have we been an hundred times more ready to give reasons of our way ; then you Church-men whom she trusts are to receive them ? but if we durst not give Account to Christ for what we do , we durst not give Account for it to your selves : Assure him to our consciences to be what you here assert him to be , viz. the Patron of Paedo-baptism , ( but this from Mar. 10. nor act . 2. nor 1. Cor. 10. nor from any other portion of his Testament , nor from his patronizing Paedo-circumcision you cannot , much less can you of Paedo-rantism which is your way ) and then we are so sensible of our future appearance before his Iudgement Seat , and have gain'd so much self denial for his sake , since we practised Pisto-baptism , that we shall as readily lay it down I hope as we took it up . Report . After the Ministers were retired , diverse Gentlemen and others , who had been present at the Disputation , thanked the Ministers , expressed the satisfaction they had received , assuring them that many were confirmed by their means and the resolution of the Ministers , who were Auditors , was , that they would faithfully in their several congregations , declare their sence of it , and oppose the growth of Anabaptism in their respective flocks . Reply . Here followes the Story of what event , and success your meeting had among your selves , and you great friends after you were hous'd , of its powerfull influence upon you Ministers , and your Maecenasses , when you met together at your Randezvous , which was on this wise , you had their gratulatorie expressions of their own satisfactions , and assurances of many ones confirmation by your means , and this reciprocally raised you Ministers into joint incouragements , ingagements , and resolutions to declare your sense of this happy efficacy , and acceptation your indeavors had among them , and to stickle more stifly then ever against Anabaptism in your respective flocks , where you usually winne all because you plaie with none there but your selves , and that you do with such earnestness and zeal , that for fear men should come to Anabaptism , i. e. a second Baptism , you stave them off at a distance , and what in you lies forbid them to own a first : thus while they doted on your Doo-little Disputation , and plaistered it ore with their applause , you in requital agreed to new White-lime , and daub ore their Babylonish Idol baby-sprinkling with your untempered Morter . Sirs , I half wonder at one thing , for which ( whether more happ●ly or unhappily it befalls you I wot not ) yet I however rather more pitty then envy you , viz. that who ere carries the thing , yet you still carry the thank , and who e're is at loss in your holy warres against us Hereticks , yet your selves take upon you still to be Triumphant ; you give the satisfactions , the confirmations , for which you have gratulations from the great ones , as if the good issue of things did run only , and alway on your side , I find it so in all verball Accounts , and also in those printed Accounts that are extant of your doings , and disputations with them of this way called Anabaptism , viz. Dr Featly's Account of his Disputation with them in South-wark , and this of your own also with us at Ashford , and another of Mr Baxters with Mr Tombes at Bewdley , pend all as is supposed by the Opponents themselves , who whip them if they have not more wit , and less grace then to disgrace themselves too much , whilst they continue Clergy-men . And now I name Dr. Featly , the man whom in the next page you turn us over to for more furniture in this point , I cannot but note by the way how finely you Featlifie throughout your whole Account , as well as here , as if there were a certain Transmigration of Dr. Featly's spirit into that person that was the inditer of your Account : for as most of the Arguments are found in ( not to say fetcht and filcht out of ) Featly's fardell , so how many things in yours are after the very Image of his Account , as if one had been the plat-form of the other ? Dr. Featly pens and prints forth his disputation under the title of a True Relation of what passed , and ( how properly I appeal to all men ) so do you : Dr. Featly saies it was the clamors of the Adversaries awakn'd his , or else it had slept securely by him in a whole skin , so say you , the disgraces the Adversaries loaded your disputation with rakt it out of those ashes , in which else it was designed to be smothred : Dr. Featly be-Asses us Anabaptists , and so do you both us ▪ and your selves too , ( as is shew'd above ) Dr. Featly makes as if none of that sect ever troubl'd him any more after that , so ye that after your handling of the enquirer , none did propound any more questions , as if you had stopt the mouths of all : Dr. Featly relates that the dippers were dipt , and plung'd ore head and ears in disputation with him , so you that your Respondent was extremely foundred , answer'd nothing in the least measure satisfactory , or that ca●ried any shew of sense or reason to the purpose : Dr. Featly relates the issue of his , as to himself , to be great thanks , so ye how you were thank'd , and as you from divers Gentlemen , so he from the Knights , Ladies and Gentlemen , of which rank few stoop so low , as to the plainness of the Gospel , but neither of you from the poor of this World that are rich in faith , and heirs of that Kingdome which God hath promised to them that love him , into which few , Knights , Ladies , and Gentlemen ( except more of them repent , believe , and obey the Gospel then mostly do ) shall ever enter : thus you flaunt it over the little flock , over this sect which is every where spoken against , as baffled , non plust , worsted by you still : but Sirs , we can give loosers leave to talk , you tell of gratulations , satisfactions , confirmations of people in your wayes by your means , but how comes it to pass that there are so many Churches ? the true Church , i. ● . those you call Anabaptists , may say in her heart after her long widow-hood , as Isa. 49.21 . who hath begotten me these , seeing I have lost my children ? and who hath brought up these ? behold I was left alone , these where have they been ? thy people crumble from thee apace ( O PPPriest ) for all thy satisfactions , and are captivated some more to Christ , and some more to the Devill then ever before , while they served thee : thy Divinity , ( O Divine ) is as the blood of a dead man , it hath no life in 't , thy Common stock , and store of Religion , thou hast treasur'd up to thy self out of this Author and that , out of Harmonies of Confessions , Councels , &c. grows stale , and begins to stink before the Scriptures , in a word gray-hairs are here , and there upon thee , and thou knowst it not . Report . And this opposition of Anabaptism hath been since done ( say you ) accordingly . Reply . And 't were enough to make a man think ( though I say it not ) that 't was done even immediately ; considering what a Tom-boyes trick was serv'd us so soon after , whilst we were preaching besides the steeple , upon a Tombstone , ( which that it grieve you not , know Christ preacht in a ship , on the shore on a mountain , in the Synagogues , in houses , even any where where people were willing to stay and hear , and so may his Ministers too for ought I know ) for while you were scratching , and clawing one another at your Inr , we teaching and convincing each other in the Outer Court , ( for there was no room for Christ in the Inner Temple , ) we were curst most bitterly with bell , though neither with book nor candle ; yea there a rose ( who knows not whence ? for sure 't was either from you and your party , or you in your party , or you without your party , or ( at least ) your party without you ) such a hot dispute of bim-bom-bell , which put us to such a non-plus that ( least we should perdere in contentione vocem ) we were fain to give over , and be gone , and were utterly Routed in the skirmish , tell we could well Raylly together in another place . So here 's the upshot of the business of that Disputation , of which somewhat more might yet be written , had my business been to give Account , and not rather to take Account of your Account on 't : but this is written , that people may believe your true Account , to be a true Counterfeit , and believing it , may know the better how to trust you another time . One word more yet to the Disputers and Scribes OF THE ASHFORD DISPUTATION , OR AN EPILOGETICAL POSTSCRIPT ON THEIR APOLOGETICAL PREFACE . Pre. THere was never any Intent this Disputation following should have appeared in publick , &c. Post. Like enough so Sirs , for the first appearance , or deliverie of it self in publique by word of mouth was with so little credit to your cause , that it might very easily be as ashamed to shew its face in print , as the Scribes that penn'd it seem'd to be to shew their names ; And doubtless so it would have been , but that it came disguis'd ; And yet even this false face , whereby you have made it shew fairer by farr on one side ( I mean your own ) then at first it did , is so black , so blind , so full of blurres and blemishes , that it cannot chuse , when it comes to review it self the second time , but color red , and blush at its own blindnesses , if it be not Brazen . Pre. But that like Jonas's Gourd it should have died as suddenly , as it grew , &c. Post. Like Ionas's Gourd indeed ; for Ionas-like ( O that you were as like him in his best , as you are too like him in the basest of his behavior ! ) you run away from God O ye Priests , and refuse to preach the preaching that he bids you ; whereupon a mighty tempest is upon you , and upon the waters whereon you ride , i. e. the tongues , nations , multitudes , and peoples , so that they are troubled for your sakes ; and upon the Earth it self , which is as it were the Ship , in the bowells of which you have imbarqued your selves , ever since your fall from heaven thither in the loins of your Father Abaddon , Revel . 9.1 . So that it reels to and fro like a Drunkard , is moved exceedingly , like to be split in pieces , clean dissolved , utterly devoured with a curse , for your sinns principally , O yee Priests , who have trangressed the Laws of Christ the only Lord , and Law-giver , changed his Ordinances , broken the everlasting covenant : neither will the sea of the whole world cease to roar about you , and be outragious till the lot fall upon you , as it did on Ionas , to be cast forth , though the Ship-Masters row never so hard to have you spared ; nor till the Tempestuous waves , on which you seek still to swim aloft , have over-whelm'd you so on every side , that you be fain to cry Alas out of the belly of hell . But Alas though the ship rock , and is ready to suffer ship-wrack , yet as if they had made a Covenant with death , and with hell were at at an agreement , So rockt asleep is Ionas , so sluggish are our Renegado Prophets , that they yet discern not the mystery of the things that are upon them , but are stark sensless of the stirs that are about them , and of the storms which themselves are most concern'd in . And what the Gourd was to Ionas in his heat , even such is this Disputation also to your cause of Infant-baptism , viz. as short , as sleight a shelter , a shadow ( for there 's no substance in 't ) under which you have rejoyced a while , and receiv'd some thin refreshment , and defence against the heat of that truth with which you were a while tormented : But God hath prepared a silly worm to smite the Gourd , so that though it blossom like a Rose , and flourisheth as a chief flower among your followers for a time , yet it will die , even as suddenly as it grew , so that , leaving you to your Evensong , to the Tune of [ or like the Gourd that Jonas had ] men will begin to sing mattens ere-long , saying : Their Rose withers , Their Blossom blasteth , Their Flower fades , The morning hasteth . Their mourning hasteth . Their Sun Sets , Their shadow flies , Their Gourd consumes , The Darling dyes . Their sprinkling dyes . Pre. The truth is the disgraces that the Adversaries in private have loaded it withall , have rak't it out of those ashes , &c. Post. For your Respondent , whom you mainly mean here , ( witness these words of yours to me , viz. Sir , These short Collections of the Ashford disputation had slept long enough , if your own private letters had not awakned them by a too much sleighting your opponents , and their Arguments ) not without a just occasion from a friend of yours presented in a letter called a spade a spade , and represented your Doo back again in no worse wise then it deserved , Asserting that your pleading of Infant-sprinkling from that non-entity of Infant-believing was shamefull and childish pedling , and that the miserable rawness and rudeness of some , then and there ingag'd in Syllogisticall dispute did ●avor as little of the Scholar , as that of the Christian ; all which and what more is there related was no other then the Truth when I pen'd it , and I find nothing to the contrary yet in your Account : Howbeit 't was so disgracefull and loadsome , that you Disputers immediately became Scribes , and posted out a piece of Print on a sleeveles errand , i. e. the Recovery of your Retrograde Repute , being afraid ( not more ●hen hurt ) that if this man of war do not ( what is not to be done ) maintain your Infant-sprinkling ( which premi haud suprimi potest , the more you tread the more you spread ) your credit may grow so crazy upon 't as to die indeed , as indeed it doth , and that daily , for as zealous as you are to unlade your selves in your Romish wayes of disgraces , yet what grace ( unless you have the Grace to Repent ) in this juncture , wherein the Lord is about to fill the earth with the knowledge of himself , and that glorious truth which you have darkned , and to bring shamefull spuing upon all your Ghostly glory ? Pre. In which it was designed to be smothered , &c. Epil . Scarce any Infant ever past alive ( I think ) under so many murtherous , and Smotherous designs as this one poor Insant-disputation that was born at Ashford : It hath had two or three births or appearances in publick , one at Ashford the place where it was first held before many , two at the press whence its forth-held before all , from every of which it should have been with-held , so as never to have appear'd at all to the view of any , if any of those whose own , more then mine , it was could handsomely have smothered , and broke the neck on t . The True father , b who first begate it by venting to a certain Gentlewoman , c ( further then he would have done ( as it seems to some since had he thought she would have prov'd with child by his dallying with her ) his pretended desire of some discourse with her seducer , so he was then pleas'd to stile me by Anticipation , having neither before nor since so much as said one word toward the shewing of me to be in error , when he saw his offer thrive so fast in the womb of her desires , that there was like to be an Issue , i. e. a Disputation father'd on him to provide for , would for ought ever I could discern , whether to avoid the shame on 't , or why else I know not , have smothered the very Embryon in the womb : but sith that could not be done very cleanly it being nois'd that there was a conception , he was minded I suppose , to have it smother of itself at the birth , for want of help to bring it forth , for he would have nought to do with it himself when the hour came , but threw it as Iudas did his busines among the Priests with [ see ye to it ] not vouch-safing so much as to see it himselfe or to send in so much as one Rag , or Ragged Argument to hide its shame withall in the day of its nativity , wherein notwithstanding all the help and hand it had from such of you as were sent for far and neer to the labor , who I dare say did the best for it you could , it was not so well ordered but that it pittied many a ones heart to see how wretched it was , and poor , and miserably blind , and naked . Howbeit I say to give you your due , you had bowels toward it far beyond him , who was neerer kin to it then your selves , for whereas he should have bin by right at all the pains and charges too that day , as being most concern'd in the business of it , yet he withdrew himself from both ; but you , who , as you say were not the men appointed for the disputa●ion , drew neer and undertook it , and were at such pains about it , that how far forth you gnawd your tongues for pain I cannot say , but I may safely say you blasp●emed the God of heaven both then and since , so farre forth as to call his truth Heresie is to blaspheme him , because of your pains and your sores , not do I hear that you yet Repent of your deeds : in a word , though little to th' purpose , yet your cares concerning this Infant-disputation were very great , when his , whose it was , were none at all save how to keep far enough from it , that it might be strangled before ever it came to light . Thus it outliv'd one or two smothers , to which it was designed by its first father , viz. both in and coming out of the womb , much land therefore which you love more then a little , to you the kind uncles for it , who so seasonably interposing your selves , swadled it up as fairly as you could in such foul shifts as you had then about you in such wise at least as to save the life on 't , or else it had surely miscarried , and come well nigh to nothing , before it was well any thing at all : Now in small process of time , perceiving perhaps that you had over-charged your selves unawares in Adopting this Ashford-disputation , the fruit of another mans loins , into your own future Tuition , by taking the Patronage thereof upon you , so publiquely as you had done that day before many people ; and possibly not more asham'd of its former poor appearance , then afraid that a further appearance of it in publique might put you to more charge and shame , even you the foster fathers also , who had been so kind as to keep it from killing , and to perform the mid-wivery und nursery thereof before , had a design now to smother it your selves , in order whereunto you had buried it alive it seems , and rak'● it up in the ashes of oblivion , that it might live no longer in mens minds , but rather return dust to dust , Ashes to Ashes as it was , hoping the Sepulchre of your silence was so sure , that the Ghost would never walk about to the cost , shame , and affrightment of its guilty Guardians any more . But all this avails not yet , the Baby-disputation was not fully smothered for all that ; for people of all sorts were in a kind of Hue-and cry after it , Adversaries talkt how ill you handled it , friends were importunate to see a copy of its countenance , so that there 's no remedy , but it must be rak't out of those Ashes , in which it was then designed to be smothered , and appear again in publique at the Press , and so by chance it came to escape a third smother , by which else in your intent it should have perisht both out of mind , and sight : per varios casus per tot discrim●na rerum Hath this poor Infant-disputation had the fortune to escape those many smothers , which in the fearful wrath of its own parents , that begat and brought it out , it was ore and ore designed to , so that it rubs out still , and remains in rerum naturâ , in vivis characteribus to this very day . Pre. And given life to it , &c. Post. And g●ven death to it you might more truly have said , for verily under a colour of setting it free from the old intended smother you have subtily smother'd it ore a new ( as it were ) in another : yea , your very Impression is a very suppression of it rather then otherwise , for you have Prest it almost to nothing in the Press , and made such a Thin-gut thing of it , that howbeit it stands bulk't out with an Appendix , and other bumbles , yet it looks no more like the disputation it once was ( in respect of the Respondents Answers , which you have rob'd it of , as well as of your own weakest Arguments ) then the seven lean kine like the fat : you would have sneap't it all out of sight if you could , but necessity urging to set forth somewhat , and shame forbidding the sight of all things as they were , after some picking and stealing , and mincing and making , &c. such Relikes of your Rakings as you saw most fit for your turns you Trick't together on a bundle , threw them into the press , and so there came out this Monstrum , Horrendum , Informe , Ingens , cui lumen Ademptum . Nevertheless it lighted on a friend at last , that was well acquainted with it from the beginning , who seeing it so lame , so decrepit , so mis-figured , recovered it out of those Sophistical Glosses , wherein it was designed to have been smothered in your Account , and gave life to it indeed , onely to vindicate the truth of it from your mis-reports . Pre. Onely to vindicate its innocency from their injuries , &c. Post. It s innocency is a matter which It was never too much guilty of in one sense , though it had enough of it in another , for howbeit ( Deo prohibente ) it neitheir could , nor did ever do any , yet it wanted no will to have done a mischief to the truth , and in that respect ( as very an Innocent as it was ) most honest men do hold it guilty . Pre. Besides the importunities of many friends desiring copies of it , not without much reluctancy for a good while , prov'd the mid-wives to this hasty birth , &c. Post. This hasty birth : me thinks indeed it looks like some untimely issue , that brake forth in h●st into the world , as one born out of due time , order and proportion ; that slipt out at the rash request of some few friends , whilst those whose work it was , and care it should have been to have look't better to it were asleep , and therefore who ere were the mid-wives may I be one of the Gossips I shall freely allow it among others , that are answerable to its nature , this name of hasty birth , and had you signed it in the forehead with capital letters , instead of A True Account , by the name of THIS HASTY BIRTH , you had done the world more right by th' half then now you have , for then your frontispice had been at least A true Account of your Book , though your Book no True Account of the Disputation . Canis festinans caecos parit catulos , hasty Bearers seldome bring forth other then such blind businesses as this , which may not be seen for shame without much Reluctancy , nor when they must , without much Apology . This hast Sirs , makes you make wast in your Papers , as well as wast sometimes in your practises , as Saul , who in hast made havock of the Church : you came in hast to the Disputation , and that made you leave Innumerable Arguments behind you , for there might be innummerable Arguments brought but the hast of the Disputation for●ad the Ministers to be so throwly provided , &c. say you p. 11 , 12. you ran in hast to give Account on 't , and for hast left it all out but a little . THIS HASTY BIRTH of yours was born about six moneths after it was in semine at the Disputation , had you forborn three moneths longer , and spent more time in recalling , raking , reviewing , there had not been such a miscarriage , your birth would have had some substance more then now it hath , some more suitableness to sense and Reason , you would have accounted for some Answers , as well as but some Arguments , and sav'd your selves that acknowledgement , which upon the after sight of your hast , defect , and oversight you are fain to make in most parts of this Epistle , But Insipientis est dicere non putâram , Sapientis discere per non putâram , though it be no wise mans part to fall unawares in to folly , yet is it a wise mans part to learn wisdome by his own folly , and so I hope you will shew your selves wisemen at least , viz. in learning by the more hast then good speed of this hasty birth festinare lentè for the time to come , and never to bring forth so hastily any more . Pre. It had nothing to boast of but the sober and silent demeanour of the Congregation while it lasted , it being a thing scarce credible , that so many ( some have guessed them about 3000 ) and so qualified , should attend with so much devotion without any interruption by the space of six hours , &c. Post. T is a thing scarce credible indeed , to him that hath either seen or heard how much commotion the Testimony of the true Baptism hath been elsewhere entertained , and attended with , that it should here among so many , and those so qualifyed too , i. e. with great prejudice against it as Heresie , and that so long too be attended with so much devotion : and therefore it hath much more to boast of , then such disputations as have been held in some parts of England , which I am loath to shame so as to name , even of old England it self in this juncture of its growing new , but specially of New-England , that is now growing old again apace ( as old England did in the Bishops times ) in order I hope to its growing newer then ever , where ( horesco Referens I tremble to relate it ) after many incivilities , and much barbarous behavior not long since used toward them , this was added above all that three witnesses to this truth were shut up in prison , and not only so , but ( according to M ▪ Cottons Bloody tenet of persecution for conscience , which even he himself abhorred in the Bishops ) meerly for no other fault then that of the Apostles at Phillippi , Act. 16. instead of a disputation with them which was pretended to be desired , but never intended to be performed by the Anti-Baptists , the Baptists had a dispensation granted them by the Court at Boston , either to pay one five , one twenty , another thirty pound , or to be well whipt , which they pleased , upon refusing of which fine to be paid , or by himself , or by others for him , who would as well have set him free at their own charge ( if he had accepted it ) as they did the others , one of the three submitting patiently to their cruelty in order to his being restored in the spirit of meekness ( aliês Romish mercilessness towards that Romish childishness of Infant rantism ) received thirty stripes at the whipping post in such wise as may well make the ears of every on that hears it to tingle , and the hearts of Christs Disciples to stand amazed , and bleed within them that ever such a thing should be heard out of New-England , as is to be seen at large in a book lately extant , stiled Ill News from New England : Lord where shall thy Servants live at peace salvâ conscientià , if thou lend them not a full liberty to declare against Tythes , and all other truth-voiding traditions in Old England , when they are so bloodily handled in New ? where ( Father forgive them ) they know not what they do . Nevertheless had the demeanour of you the Priests at Ashford been as sober and silent as that of the people ( as it seldome is when a Classis of you get together , much less was it at Ashford , where you grew into a Chaos of conference and a confused croud of disputation ) it had had much more to boast of then it hath . Pre. The Scandals that have since been cast upon it were expected &c. Post. And well they might ( unless you reckoned without your Host ) if you scand the Scantines of the provision you made both for your credit , and the proof of your practise : but what Scandalls I trow were cast upon your Disputation ? here 's a great talk of Disgraces , Scandals , Injuries that its under as from us , but ( unless summum jus be summa injuria ) we righted it rather a little too much in reckoning on it as more then it is worth , or at least not setting so slightly by it as well we might : But t is as usual a fashion among you Clergy men to count your selves scandaliz'd , disparaged , disgrac'd , vilified , undervalued , &c ▪ when you are but either found out in your falsehoods , or slandered of a matter of truth as t is for you , under one vile name or other , to scandalize the Saints most falsly , and slander the truth it self : yet if your repute be at reparations , more then justly , through our occasion , when we know it we shall make you satisfaction by submission , and amends by amendment , mean while have patience with us , and in due time , and Christs strength I trust we shall pay you all . Pre. The men which were our Adversaries , and their driving was known before , &c. Post. Were it in respect only to your Infant sprinkling that you did so frequently stile us thus , we are no less then many hundreds of its old acquaintance , who thinking once ( as you do ) that we did God service to be friends to it , could now freely answer to the name of Adversaries , but we are the best friends in the world to the Truth , and your Persons , could you once see wood for trees , and no further Adversaries to your cause , then as we are well assured you can never make it good while the world stands , by all the shifts you can devise , from the law of Christ , whose cause you call it . As for our Driving , were it like that of Iesu the son of Nimshi , it would excuse it self the better , sith t is only against the house of the Woman Iezebell , that hath sate as Queen over the Nations , and stirred up Ahab the Kings and Powers of the Earth to commit fornication with her , and to do abominably , and to shed the blood of Saints : if you be not she , then our driving is not towards you , but if you be ( as I dare not be sworn that you the CCClergy throughout all Christendome are not ) then wo to your house indeed , not as from us , but from the Lord , who yet a little while , wherein space is given you to repent , and if he cast not you and your lovers into a bed together , and into great tribulation , except ye repent , so that all the Churches of Christ shall know that t is even he that searcheth the heart , and tryeth the reins , and giveth to every one of you according to your works , then the Lord hath not yet spoken at all by me . Pre. It is no new thing with them to bespatter those Arguments with their tongue which they cannot unty with their teeth , &c. Post. It is an old new thing with your selves , for it hath been of old the custome of the new Clergie , though never of the true , by common councel to cry down ( as Heresie ) what truth soever was too hard for them : as for us it is no new thing with us indeed , for it is one of those old things which were in use among us while we were all one with you , but since we sincerely sought the truth are past away : so that I cannot but clear those men that say it is no new thing with us , as speaking no other then the truth , and must needs condemn those who condemn us of it now , as men condemning us of a meer new nothing . Pre. Thou hast here a true , though short , Relation of the most materiall things that passed , &c. Post. I was musing a while what of the Ashford-Disputation this True Account could be truly counted a True Account of ; for I found that it mentioned neither the number , nor the names of the Scribes that scrap't it , nor the Disputers that disputed it , nor the Arguments of more then one of those disputers , nor all his Arguments , nor half the Respondents Answers , nor many more things that should be in it by right , nor many of those things rightly , that are in it by wrong ; at last I had resolution here that 't was A True , though short , Relation of the most materiall things that passed . Yea Sirs ? I assure you a good whipping is fitter for that disputation , then a printed Account of it to the world , unless on purpose to be laugh't at , that lasted no less then six hours , whereof five and an half past away mostly in Immaterials , and the odd half too in such Immaterials as these you have here accounted for : and if these are the most material things that passed , how Immaterial ( may the world well think ) were the most Immaterial that passed in the Disputation , they surely were not worth one quarter of the while they past in . Moreover that your Relation is Short , yea far short of the Disputation Related I dare not deny , but dare you say it ore and o●e again that 't is a true one ? how true it is , is so apparent by the preceding Ezamen of your Account , that I need not here so much as assert it to be false ; I shall therefore say no more but thus , viz. Had you said [ false ] where you say [ true ] both here , and in your title page , where your — &c. is stiled A True Account , A True Relation , you had then said true without all question , but your saying [ true ] in these two places , where you should have said [ false ] hath made you speak falsly in both indeed . Pre. The adversaries answers being rendred to his best advantage , &c. Post. As for example ; sometimes his answers are altered , and translated into a clear contrary form , sense , & meaning then he ever spake in ; somtimes added to , somtimes defrauded of such clauses as would have given every body to understand his intent to be directly opposite to what its here represented , sometimes invented as it were de novo ; somtimes rendred not at all , but only related to be nothing in the least measure satisfactory , nothing that carried the least shew of sense or reason to the purpose , &c. and all this if men would believe you , and if they do not , I dare say 't is because they have neither sense nor reason whereupon to believe it , to your Respondents best advantage ; but t is utterly against your wills surely Sirs , besides your intentions , and in some such way as you never meant it , if it be , for 't were a wonder if you should mind my advantage so much , as to render my answers the best way in order thereunto , and 't is a chance had you intended my best advantage , but that you might have helpt me one lee-tle dram more then you have done ; what not one syllable ? not one scruple ? not one minits matter more of all that store that lies a smothering , wherewith to mend the case of your Adversary , whom you seem so to pitty too , that if 't were possible , even for old emnities sake , for old truths sake , which he strives to tell you , you would do all to his best aduantage ? facile est invenire baculum ad caedendum canem ; you can easily pick a hole in his coat ; and could you not ( resolving to render things too to his best advantage ) find some few shreds and old ends , or other out of all those cast clouts , you made in the cutting out of your Account , wherewith to stop a hole , and hide the shame of at least some of that silly silence you sometimes father on him , and some of that foppicall non-sense , that you fain him , and would fain have him at other times be thought to have utter'd ? was there not one grain more in all his six hours answering to put in his end of the scales , whereby to have rendred his answers a lee-tle more weighty then you have rendred them , and somewhat more answerable to sense and reason ? but in truth you may well be afforded a pardon , for when hundreds of wise men , that were ear witnesses of the disputation , shall see how grossly you have falsified what you pretend to give a true Account of , the truth will be no looser , but yours the disadvantage rather in the end : by Accident therefore , indirectly and in such sense as the truth of God the more abounds through mens lies against it to his glory , it may possibly prove true , that things are here rendred more to my best advantage , then if they had been more truly rendred ; but I suppose there would need no more to make Democritus weep , and his dog laugh too , if he had one , then to hear you say in sober sadness , that in this Ragged , and Rude Rendition you directly intended any such matter , as to render your Adversaries Answers to his best advantage , or that you intended any other then the very contrary . Pre. And the Ministers Arguments as they were delivered without any addition , &c. Post. Alack good men , you minded so much the mending the case of your Adversary , and so singly designed by alteration , ablation , addition , &c. the rendring of his Answers to his best advantage , that you durst not trangress so much as a fingers breadth by adding any thing to what you delivered your selves , towards your own advantage in your Account of the disputation ; but what ever Additaments , figments , amendments , &c. are used for his aliâs your own best advantage sake in the rendring of the Adversaries Answers , yet the Ministers Arguments are set down even nakedly as they were delivered , without any Addition for advantage , as if either the Ministers needed nothing to be done in such a way in their case , but might well spare all the advantage to go on the other side , and yet be on the surer side too , or else were such self-denying men , that they would rather represent the cause of the Adversary at the very best , then their own in the least measure any better then it was . And truly Sirs I must needs say that for you , that you have not advantag'd your own matter much by Addition to your Arguments , but what benefit accrues to them as you manage the matter in your Account , is rather by way of Abdition then Addition ; for you have hid the most Immateriall of them from being seen at all , and rendred them clean out of the way ; the advantage they have , lies more in their being rendred by the ablative case , then by the dative . Pre. Thou art desired to read them without prejudice , to let thy charity cover the weakness of them , &c. Post. For my own part Sirs , as I heard your Arguments for Infant-baptism without prejudice , i. e. not passing sentence on them till I had heard them , when you urg'd them at first at the Disputation by word of mouth , so God is my witness how often I have read them ore and ore again without prejudice , seriously setting my self to weigh them most impartially , in the ballance of both Scripture and reason , since you urg'd them ore again in print : nevertheless I cannot possibly ( unless I speak against the light of my conscience ) judge them to be any other then what I said before , and what your selves are pleased here to acknowledge them to be before all the world , begging of people in charity to couer the weakness of them , viz. but weak Arguments ; which ingenuous confession of yours if it be not a giving of the cause , I appeal not only to all rational men that shall happen to read this , who know that the truth or falshood of all causes respectively lies in the strength or weakness of the Arguments , that are brought in defence thereof , so that they either stand or fall according as the Arguments to uphold them ( be they few or many ) are either weak or weighty , but also to your selves , who tell us truly and plainly , that t is the weight of Arguments onely ( and he is a weak man that saies weak ones are weighty ones ) that carries the cause : your own words if they may be of any weight with you are these p , 12. viz. besides that opinion of Ovid , Et si non prosunt singula , multa juvant , what ever it may carry of credit in other causes ought to have but little in this , where we trust not in multitude , nor measure by number ; but substance and weight of Arguments are the foundation of our faith ; the other are for pomp and victory , these onely for satisfaction and verity : so that if a man might hope you would stick to this candid concession of yours and not start from it , there need not be much said in discovery of the weakness , or non-weightiness of your Arguments , and consequently of the Rottenness of your cause , for the world it self may hear what you say out of your own mouths in this very vindicatory Account of yours , wherein you not onely publish some of your Arguments in that same weakness and nakedness wherein at first they appeared , so that every eye may discern it , having leave now to examine them at leasure , but also after not a few vain glorious vauntings , and ventings of your selves concerning them , as of worth and weighry , in way of defence of them from those sleightings , those disgraces , those injuries and censures of them as weak and wanting , which they are under as from us , at last being sensible of their weakness you sing a new song to the tune of cry you mercy , and fall a beseeching the Reader in his charity to cover the weakness of them : by which weak petition you may work upon some weak ignorants , that are not book learn'd , or ( if they be ) stand bent to believe all things as you desire them , but on none that are truly disciples , though onely A. b. c. darians in the School of Christ , but Sirs , what need so much peccavi and precari ? if your ware were currant it would go off with acceptance without such a deal of cap and congee , and pittiful intreaty to the Reader to cover the weakness of your Arguments , the strength of which onely should cause him to gather the goodness of your cause , and not strong intreaty to take it for good , though the Arguments you plead it by are but weak : Vino vendibili non opus est haedera : if your Arguments and reasons for baby-baptism be strong and solid , your Reader ( if rational ) will receive them ; if weak ( as you say they are ) he is a Reader scarce worth writing reason to , who will be prevailed with by your desire so to cover their weakness as in charity to suffer himself to be overcome , and carried away by them ( notwithstanding that their weakness ) to close with you in your cause , and to be beaten into a belief of your baptism as good , though it hath but broken reeds and bulrushes to maintain it , by the force of bare beggings and beseechings d : or if in this request of yours to us , to cover the weakness of your Arguments your meaning is , not that we should be so silly as to build our belief and practice upon them , though weak by your own confession , whose they are ; but onely that we should not publish , discover and divulge their weakness to the world , but in charity be content to think our think , or to see and say nothing ; truly Sirs , what others will do at your request in this kind I know not , but I assure you I cannot possibly for my part grant your desire in this case , forasmuch as your selves have engaged me several waies not to be silent , on pain of giving away the cause ; which if it were onely my own too , the matter were so much the less , you should have it with all my heart ; yea verily and my own life too to do your souls good , for I know I could freely part with it to be a means of effecting your salvation ; but since it is the cause of God , which he hath intrusted me with the pleading of against you , who presume to enter the lists against it , with such silly tools , and weak weapons , on behalf of a Babish-baptism which is not from heaven , but of men , I dare not give place so far as in foolish pitty to spare the Cittie Babylon , or in Charity not to bewray a Breach or weakness in her walls of defence , when I spie it , for that were in Charity to betray the truth of of God , and such Charity is more Antichristian , by far then Christian , what ere you call it , and such as could have small hope of acceptance before God , however esteemed of among men : wherefore I desire you to have me excused , if I cannot in charity cover the weakness of your Arguments , for in Charity to poor souls , that are led aside from the way of truth by your piteous pious pretences , and weak reasonings for your way , 〈◊〉 I am concerned in the very next place , after I have done with this of yours to the Reader , to discover to the world the weakness of them : besides sith you have made so bold with your selves , as to proclaime the weakness of your own Arguments for Infant-baptism ( I hope the Counties of Kent and Sussex will consider this , that their choise Ministry that stood up to maintain Infant-Baptism at Ashford , did after in their own Account theerof give out of their own accord , that there was weakness in the Arguments they brought for that purpose ) men mutire nefas ? I hope it shall be no offence to you for me to second you in your own saying ; 't is you who have publisht your arguments to be weak , my business shall be only publickly to prove them so to be as you assert them : yet if it be offensive to you , it shall be no wonder to me , for I know already that you can bear it better to have your Disputation ly under disgrace and disparagement , under shame and censure of weakness from your selves in print , then from your supposed Adversary , and true Friend my self so much as in a private Letter only ; and that some men ( as the Proverb is ) may more safely steal the horse , then some so much as peep o're the hedge . Pre. Not to suffer the cause to be wronged thorow the desects of those , who had more zeal to maintain it , then abilities , &c. Post. T is both usual , and lawfull for us to judge of causes by the effects , that naturally and necessarily flow from them , for qualis causa , i. e. naturalis , & per se , talis effectus , & Retró ; e. g. Infant-sprinkling hath been a cause efficient and per se , from whence much evil hath necessarily crept into the world , for it hath been a means of confounding the Church and the World together , of letting the Gentiles or Nations by whole sale into the outter Court , of filling the world with meer nominal Christians , and carnal Christianity , whereby they have got advantage ever since to tread down the holy City , and true worship and worshippers , as Heresie , Hereticks , of bringing the nations into one Catholick Church whereof the Pope was universall Bishop , or overseer for ages together , thorow the eyes of his creatures the Clergy , the very Stirrup whereby he and his Ministers , who have blended themselves into a blind and beastly uniformity , have become Masters of the Kingdomes , and have got up to ride them ; a plea and president for traditions , ( it being one it self ) which ever make Gods commands void , and mens worship of God in vain ; an inlet of these and innumerable more mischiefs and absurdities , for posito hoc uno absurdo sequuntur mille , therefore it is undoubtedly an ill cause : also t is lawfull to judge of a cause by the common Consequents which come from it , not as caused properly , but meerly occasioned by it , and in respect of which it is called only causa sine quâ non , i. e. that without which the other would not be , and yet no other then the bare accidentall occasions of those effects , which flow from something else as the cause thereof perse ; and most especially when those consequents are declared by the word of God to be such , as will upon that occasion universally and unavoidably come to pass ; and thus we may give a shrew'd guess that our cause is good , viz. that our Gospel , Ministery , Church-way and Baptism is the true one , because we see it is seconded now , and ever hath been with what it was of old seconded , and foretold also that it should ever be even every where to the worlds end , viz. divisions in families , two against three , and three against two , the Father against the Son , the Daughter against the Mother &c. offences of friends , and fleshly relations , the account of Heresie and baseness , hatred of men , persecution , cavils , stirs , tumults about it , by which things Christs people , Gospel , Ministers , and Ministrations are ever proved to be his Luke . 12.52.53 . Math. 24.9.2 . Tim. 3.12 . 1 Cor. 1.27 . 2 Cor. 6.4 , 5. So that where there 's none of this I avouch the Gospell in its purity is not there though where these are the Gospel is not the cause for that is men lusts and flesh fighting against the light , but the only the occasion , whereupon they arise ; when Satan the strong man holds the house the goods are all in peace , but when Christ the stronger man comes to storm him out , there 's contention , in hearts , houses , Towns and Countries , as when Christ came to Ierusalem all was in an uproar , and when Paul came with his Gospel to Ephesus , Athens , Iconium , Lystra , Derbe lewd fellows of the baser sort were set on by others to raise tumults , for truth tormented them into rage ; thus we often judge of Causes as good or bad , right or wrong , by the effects that flow from them , but to reason upon a cause as good , or ill , true , or false , right or wrong according to the might or moaness , the abilities or defects of the persons that stand up for it is the right way to wrong it indeed , sith the Antichristian cause hath the mighty , wise , and prudent Priests , and Potentates of the world for its Patrons , when the poor only , for the most part , receive Christs Gospell and the strength that God ordains in defence thereof against the persecutor is the mouths of Babes and Sucklings . Causes are to be rejected as wrong and false according to the defects and weakness that is discovered to be in the Arguments that are brought to maintain , and not by the weakness and defects that may seem to be in those that are more zealous then able to mannage them , if there appear to be weight in the Arguments : these if strong however weakly and babishly propounded will carry the cause in the conscience of any , but such Priest-be-charmed Christians , as in Charity to their Churchmen , are resolved to yield themselves up to be carried away with every wind of doctrine that passes from them , and , covering the weakness of them , to be whifled any way by such arguments as the men themselves , that make them are fain to grant to be weak to prove what they are brought for ; for no Argument is weak that is sufficient to evince the thing it s used in proof of , though it fall from the mouth of never so weak a man ; if a weak feeble hand letfall an heavy Axe upon it , or a sharp sword , even the sword of the Spirit the word of God , that is quick and powerfull it may serve to cut off the Popes head , Tripple Crown and all , but if the Pope himself , and all his children , which are the ablest Humanists in the world , come out to warre against Christ and his cause with reeds and rushes , blind non sequiturs , weak and broken Consequences , they must ride back to Rome for stronger swords , or else they may force fools into conformity to their follies , but never guide wise men after the spirit to believe their cause to be good : as therefore t is not good that an ill cause , that hath but weak Arguments to uphold it , should be owned for good , either in Charity , or upon pretence of ability in the persons that patronize it , as the Clergies crooked cause of Infant-sprinkling is , for what saies the Parish to those poor ones in it , that entertain the Gospel , are you wiser than a whole Synod of able Orthodox Divines ? so it is a thousand pitties that a good cause , that hath strong Arguments enough from Scripture , and reason to prove it right , should be wronged so , as to be rejected as rotten ( yet so Christs true baptism is ) through the defects of the persons called Anabaptists , who are supposed at least to have more zeal then ability to prove it ; of which sin of wronging a right cause upon account of such defects , even the cause of Christs true baptism , which in his strength those Babes that are baptized with it are not only zealous , but able to make good against the Ablest Baby-Baptist that is among you , I know no men under the Sun more guilty , then you Clergy men , who take your advantages to cry out the lowder against it as error , by the defects of Christs Disciples that plead and practise it , of whom you say commonly , as you say complementally of your selves here , they have more zeal , then abilities to maintain it ; yea verily you , who seem here , whether more simply or more simulatorily who knows not ? so to implore the charitable benevolence of well disposed people to cover the weakness of your Arguments , and not to suffer your cause of Infant-sprinkling to suffer throw your defects , and inabilities to maintain it , are men so far from teaching facienda faciendo , from doing to others as you would be done to , that you rather disclaim and proclaim those Arguments of ours as weak , which as feeble a folk as we are , are strong enough to storm you out of your strongest holds , and cause that cause to be despised , under pretence of our defects , which though weak in our selves , and pretending to little of that outward accomplishment , which you call ability , yet throw Christs word assertaining it to be his , and his spirit assisting us thereunto , we have both zeal and ability to maintain : who is it I trow that trumpets about the eminency and learnedness of their party and illiteracy of the Anabaptists , whereby to render the way the more contemptible , more then the Priesthood , who charm their people against the receipt of the Gospel , in such sort as the Pharisees of old when they said , are you also deceived ? have any of the Rulers of the Pharisees believed on him ? but this people that know not the law are cursed Ioh. 7.47 , 48 , 49. So brags Dr Featly and his fellows , despising the way of dipping viz. joint suffrages of so many Bishops in such a Synod : as for the Anabaptists , they are a few , mean , sylly men and women , an illiterate and sottish sect , the father and head of whom , quoth he , was Nicholas Stock , and a very blockhead was he : p. 164. Simple rude Mechani●ks , Russet Rabbies , Apron Levites , whom we own not , quoth he , but detest and abominate p. 113 , who know not how to dispute for truth , because they know not the original , and cannot conclude syllogistically in mood and figure p. 1.2 . Thus Featly defeats them in their cause by dilating on their defects , and which of you almost do not confirm your people against their cause by their infirmities of one kind or other ? like flies you feast your selves upon their sores , and let go their sounder parts ; you make much of their little to your purpose , you make your best out of their worst , and out of their personal weaknesses strengthen your selves , and others against the truth , which wise men know is nevertheless truth for the poors receiving it ; you root in their very excrements , whereby to find matter to make their good cause bad ; and yet here , oh how mendicant of other mens mercy , not only to spare sentencing your cause as wrong , by your personall defects , and want of abilities , but also in charity to couer the weakness of your Arguments ? which is such an unreasonable request , as was scarce ever put forth before by any Disputants , who if they find their Arguments to be weak , ought rather to recant them , specially after such publique acknowledgement of the weakness of them , and to desire people that they would not suffer themselves to be swayed by them then otherwise . But Sirs , do you think in your consciences that there is such weakness in your Arguments , as is here intimated to us in your own book ; and likewise that your cause , which is so far from a good one , that it deserves to bear the name of Abaddon , is in danger of suffering so much through your defects in disputing it , unless men be so charitable as to wink at the weaknesses of both ? I speak seriously in my mind you had then better by far have conceal'd then reveal'd your disputation in an Account , and had provided much better for the honor of it , for now you have vindicated it from the disgraces , with which it was loaded in private like him that fetches a frisk out of the frying pan into the fire , whilst you publish it in the same weakness , ( onely robbing your Respondent of the strength of his Answers ) in which it discover'd it self at first , and hang it out against the Sun , so that all men may see clean through it ( so thin and thread-bare it is ) and that without spectacles , and not onely so but make proclamation of the weakness of your Arguments , with a petition to pardon the weakness of them : that 's an ill bird , which in hast bewraies his own nest , and leaves it to others to make all clean , and such are they that uncover their own nakedness so far , when they need not , that they are fain to be beholding to the benevolence of others to cover it , and yet are so inexorable as to hold the cause of others inexcusable in the self same case , wherein they are earnest to be excused by them ; for our cause is at a loss among you for the sake of what ere defects you spie in any persons that profess it . But I believe you are not cordiall in your a●knowledgements here , for if you were , you would surely have endured your Respondents private representations of the weakness of your Arguments , and your pedling in your proof of Infant-baptism with more patience then you did ; but its evident by your impatience towards him in that kind , that , what ere you say here of your selves in a voluntary humility , yet ▪ you have so good an opinion of your selves , and your work too that day , that ( Tam nil as nothing as it here seems to be in your Account as well as ours ) you take it ill that any should esteem so poorly , and speak so plainly , though but privately , of your trifling doings , as you dispense with your selves to do here in publick before all the world ; and howbeit here 's weakness , and defects , and defects , p. 3. overtly worded over by you in a general way , yet it 's an hundred to one , if a man take you at your word , and yield to what you say as truth , and say it ore after you , that there 's much weakness in your Arguments , and that there were many defects in your Disputation , and your zeal of Infant-baptism is great , and your abilities but mean to maintain it , you will be half angry with him , and think he casts scandals upon your disputation , and be ready to gainsay all this , and to stand up in vindication of your Arguments as strong and sufficient , and lay all the defects that were in the disputation at your Respondents door ; and if you be askt , what one individual particular Syllogism ; Term , Argument or Scripture you were out in the framing , uttering , urging or underctanding of throughout the whole day of the disputation ? I am perswaded you will sooner bite your nayles then assign any , or if it be specified by others that in this , and that you were out , you misunderstood such or such a Scripture , such a speech or passage you faultred in , I am afraid your pretended self-deniall will be found so little , that you 'l justifie your selves in every bit and scrap of that which past from you during the whole discourse , which makes your confessions deserve but little of that favour , you so much implore , by how much they savor of juggle and complement , more then of a real true sense of what is wanting to you indeed , which verily is a right-baptism to maintain , rather then abilities to maintain that right-none that you stood up for : nevertheless I must needs grant it to be true that you say here , that your abilities were far short of your zeal , yea so short , that howbeit you had a good mind to do it , yet you neither did nor could maintain it at all ; but wherefore was it , but because you had a bad cause in hand ? yea , had your zeal been as big as your cause was bad , there had been no standing before you indeed : the defects of your cause was the cause of your defects , and not your own defects the cause of your causes : had not the fault been more in your faith , which was a false one , then in your faculty to maintain things ; and had that and your baptism been as good , as your parts are great , and both these as probable , as you capable to prove , the meanest among you might have done more at the disputation , then ( as it happend ) all of you did per vim unitam , because though you fought with one , who was no more then a flea in your ears , yet you hapned to be fog'd so that you faced the wrong way , and fell in unawares against the truth , which in these daies of its return falls upon inquisitive consciences with more force from the mouth of fooles and babes , then meer tradition doth from the wisest Babists in the world : The deepest defect is in the cause you defend , in the way you warrand , t is a crooked cause , an unwarrantable way , and therefore those that will warrand mens walking in it , can never do it without faultring and fumbling in the work , and such after occasions of fawning on men for their charitable excusation . Gentlemen ( that I may neither seem to defie , nor yet to deifie your persons , but put things upon a true Account ) you are men that have some worth and excellency , and yet some weakness and exigency too , but I impute your miscarriage in the disputation not half so much to your own , as to your causes indigency ; your business was well man'd , but ill manag'd , because there was but an ill matter to be maintain'd ; you were at the wrong end of the staff , and therefore well might you be defective in the strife : this makes the least of the flock draw you great Leviathans out now adayes , and the feeble to be as David before Goliahs , that have been Polemically exercised from their youth , in that truth on their side doth animate and assist them : you meet them with staff and spear , and humane accomplishments , and they stand before you in the name of God , and strength of that truth , , and true Israel of his whom you yet defie ; this makes Schoolmen like Schoolboyes under the rod , when they are taken tardy in their exercise , and see they are like to be whipt for it , cry spare us , in that their School-masters the Pope , and Councels have overtaskt them , and set them a Theam , which Scripture , whence onely they must fetch all their proofs , saies just nothing of at all : This makes the Disputers , the Divines to come abroad a begging in print among the vulgar ( as you here do ) saying cover , pass by , bewayling the weakness of their Arguments , their defects in disputing , their presumption in entring the lists , their non-preparation for the disputation , because it s not the true Gospel they disputed for , a very stripling may make a Gyant give back , if he have hold on the hilt of his sword , and the other thrust hard against the blade ; 't is hard for thee O Saul to kick against the pricks : a learned lawyer may be at loss in a lame suit ; Asinus ad lyram may play his part better , and make sweeter musick then the most accurate musitian , that hath nothing to beat upon but a board : it may well put any , but the meer Sophister to his shifts , to prove the moons made of green cheese , and so 't will any , save the meer self-seeker , that is set to serve it out of a sight that he can serve himself of it , and therefore is resolv'd to make any Argument serve turn ( even libet ergo licet ) rather then leave it , to prove Infant-baptism , much more Infant-rantism to be a good cause : and yet ( the more 's the pitty ) this is the cause you have to make good , and have been so bold as to stand up for , which though your wishes are here , that it may not suffer wrong through your defects , yet mine are much rather that you may not suffer your selves to be wrong'd any more , or to be wrong'd for ever through its defects , for howbeit it flatters you into an opinion of its ability to be maintain'd by you , by its appearing ability to maintain you , yet you 'l find ith'end , that by its fair flourishes it hath flusht you into more zeal , then furnisht you with ability to maintain it , when it shall have brought you to your choice of one of these two , ( ex quibus minimum est eligengendum ) viz. either of Repentance from it , and all other your Parochiall dead works , tithes and other traditions that depend upon it , upon a sight and acknowledgement that you have been mistaken about these , as well as other Romish Remnants , that you have seen cause through the Parliaments eyes to renounce since that long since Lutheran reformation , which after longer standing out will be so much the harder Chapter for you Clergy men to run throw , or else which is worse then nought , of perseverance in your evil waies , and dead works , against light , to prevent the other , which last the Lord prevent from befalling any of you if it be his will. Pre : Who would not have presumed to have entered the lists , &c. Post. It had been no presumption in you , had you been true Ministers of Christ , and the cause you stood up in Christs cause indeed : for grant it to be presumption in Vzziah to meddle in the publique service of the Temple , and in Vzziah to put forth his hand to uphold the Ark and consequently ( for so you argue , not we ) for men to meddle , so as to minister to the Gospel publiquely in your Churches , that are not in holy orders ; yet it is none ( vos Apello ) for the Priests , or ordained Ministers of Christ to stand up any where in defence of Christs truth where it s traduced , but rather duty , which in speciall they stand bound to ; in that therefore you accounting your selves Christs Ministers , do grant it to be presumption in you , to put forth so publiquely when you saw it tottering , you do no less thou give the cause you stood up in to be none of his ; as indeed it was not but your own , and that was it only which made it presumption , and very high presumption in you too , in that you durst enter the lists against the Lord Iesus in in his own ordinance ; and that with such weak Arguments , such flags as flam'd like swords , but alas such as could not bear the brunt when it came to blows here , how much less will they in that battel of the great day of God Almighty , which is now marching apace upon you . 'T is true therefore ( as you here confess ) you have been presumptuous , and presumption , is one of the most desperate sins that can be against Christ , yet for all that in his name , and as an Embassador from him ( though otherwise an unworthy , and ever a contemptible creature in your eyes ) as though himself did beseech you by me , I am bold to beg of you that you would not despair , but come in , and be reconciled to him , presuming no more to stand up against him with such weak weapons as before , least he tear you in pieces , fall upon you , and grind you to powder ; but sit down and humble your selves , that you have stood so long in the way of Sinners , so that they could not come to Christ through your Blurres ; lay down your arms , and yield your selves prisoners to him , stoop to that golden Scepter he yet holds out unto you ; own him as your King , Priest and Prophet ; list no more against him , but list your selves under him , for he is gracious and will yet receive you , and baptize you with his spirit , if you turn at his reproof , and repent , and be baptized in water in his name for remission of sins , Pro. 1.23 . Act. 2.38 . become little children in such a sense as you should be , that you may be baptized , and then be baptized in truth , and in token ( for your memory hath lost your traditionary token sprinkling ) that hereafter you will not be ashamed to confess the faith of Christ crucified , but manfully fight under his banner against sin , the world and the devill , and continue Christs faithful souldiers to your lives end . How happy had it been for you if you had took quarter from Christ before this time , for he would have given it , and forgiven all your enmity against him in his truth , but you are stiff-blades , and your words have been stout against him ; you Clergy men are Lords , you will not come neer ; but I beseech you become Lord beggars at the throne of grace ( as Brightman said truly the Bishops were for earthly honor at the thrones of Kings and Princes ) that you may have more of that grace and holiness to worship God with reverence according to his own will , which God gives to all humble Suppliants ; then had you less learning and living then you have , and more disgrace in this world , then ever any Synods of you had reverence , or Arch-Bishops grace , or Popes holiness , you would never find occasion to bewail your losses , or repent of your change , or reject the councel of God against your selves , out of his mouth , who is a serious Sollicitor , both from God to you that you would be , and to God for you that you may be in the acknowledgement o● his truth no less then happy for ever . Pre. Where there was so great expectation , &c. Post. There was great expectation indeed , though not greater then little satisfaction : for first some were earnestly expected , ( and one also evidently engaged to be there , so that some durst have laid any money he would not fail them ) who what ere the matter was , were not there . The two Doctors e A. B. were both Absent , yet to my knowledge both Adsent , and good reason too , ●or they were then not onely as immediate neighbours to each other , in respect of the vicinity of their houses , as A. B. in the Cris-cross row , but also lookt upon for ability as two foremen in that whole Classis of Clergy-men . As for A , whom for his Age I truly reverence , and some other excellencies , in respect of which many are inferior to him , if his prudence forbad his presence he may the more easily be excused , by how much the less he was ingaged ; but as for B. the very beginner of all that business ( ut supra ) though I both lov'd and honour'd his person , more then he did that truth of Christ I pleaded against him , yet I must needs say , for him to beget this Infant-Disputation , and then on its birth day father it per alios , and not per se , 't was too like them , to whom in that , and many more matters ( if he were not ) many more of that leaven are like , who bind heavy burdens , and grievous to be borne on other mens shoulders , and touch them not themselves with one of their fingers . Secondly , as some were expected to be there who were not , so something was expected by the people from those that were there , which yet could not be performed ; first ( and last too sith it might not be at first ) from the Respondent , that since he was declaim'd against as an Heretick and Seducer , that he should have given Account ( that being the professed end of his coming ) of the way he walkt in , that 't was the way of truth ; but he could not , because it was not permitted by the Priests , who pretended to be most strict upon him for it , neither afore , nor at , not after , nor within , nor without ( till he got far enough from the Ring-leaders ) peaceably , publiquely , perfectly , and plainly to give it to them . Secondly , from the opponents , that since they cried out error , error , heresie , schism , sedu●ement , they would prove ( for preach they would not neither ) by way of Argument , and by Arguments that had weight in them , that their Infant-baptism was the way of Christ , but they could not neither , for whereas strong Arguments were expected , they brought none but such weak ones , that they were fain to wish good people to let their charity cover the weakness of them . Pre. Without better preparation , &c. Post. Indeed your preparation was bad enough in all reason , and it will be expected , that if ever you enter the lists again your preparation be far better then it was ; but yet ( as it fell out ) it was better then worse , and by so much the better , by how much it was less then ordinary ; for take this for truth Sirs that your preparation may easily be bigger , but never better , if your cause be the same : preparation to any bad matter is ever ( if the bigger the better ) then the better the worse , for vis est improba quae valet ad nocendum , a power that hurts is best when least : and a little of that which is good is better , then a great deal of that which is nought . First , then make your cause good . Secondly , your cell : Thirdly , your conscience , as far as it needs mending , then all will be well enough ith'end ; and though men will fume and frown on you , yet shall you be backt so well from heaven , as to need no mans patronage here on earth , nor yet so much time for preparation , as you now lack , who are ever to seek when summond to sudden service : for the preparation of the heart , and the answer of the tongue are both from the Lord , Prov. 16.1 . on whom were you so intimately and immediately dependent as his disciples are bid to be , Mat. 10.29 , 20. Mar. 13.1 . Luke 12.11 . you would not be so sollicious what to say before the proudest Princes , as for want of that and somewhat else you commonly are before the plainest people ; nor when you stand up in his name , shall you need to excuse your presumption , if you stood before as many Kings as there were people to plead for truth : but alas deest aliquid intus ( as one said who went about to make a dead man stand ) the Spirit of the father speaks not in you , you stick to a certain stock of divinity , which you have stored up in your studies , and common-place books , which when you are but 40. foot off from , you are so far off from your harbor and harness , that meer mechanick Scripturists may make you strike sail to them ; but you want that inward treasury , and through instruction for the Kingdome of God , Mat. 13.52 . Luk. 6.45 . by which the good Scribe is furnisht ( as occasion is ) to bring forth things new and old ; this is one thing , which more then the hast of Disputations , forbids you to be so throughly provided as you should be : besides deest aliquid ad extra too , for the truth is that small preparation you make is more against then for the truth , as it is in Iesus , which who ever implead , though with never so much acurateness , and acuteness of dispute ( whether it be you or we ) can be but homines obtuse acuti ( as a man famous in your Account said well of such ) i. e. Acute Block-heads at the best . Pre. But that they feared the triumphings of the Adversary , &c. Post. As far as the Adversary is minded to triumph , he hath much more occasion ministred by your undertakings , then if you had never entered the lists at all ; for then it might have been thought , that you could have said something in proof of Infant-baptism but would not ; but now 't is known you would have said something to that purpose , but could not : But Alas Sirs , as Adverse to you , and desirous to triumph over you as we are Accounted by you to be , we had much rather have occasion of rejoicing and triumphing in your sincere submission thereto , then in either your dastardly disposition , or your weak opposition of the truth , yet thanks be to God , whether you own or decline , or spurn against the truth , he alwayes causeth us to triumph in Christ , and maketh manifest the savour of his love by us in every place , for we are unto God a sweet savor of Christ , in them that are saved , and in them that perish ; and as for our great turn of triumphing truly over them , who have trodden down the truth , we are in serious expectation of that at the Return of our Captain Christ Iesus , till then we must be no otherwise triumphant , then as I said above , but with the whole state of Christs Church militant here on earth . Pre. And the unanswerable crime of deserting the truth to be charg'd upon them , if they had not stood up to maintain it , especially when the not doing of it had startled the strong , offended the weak , and confirmed those in their error , which were fallen before . Post. To desert the truth is an unanswerable crime indeed , the sense of which I believe may be the reason not onely why some Priests are so loath to answer any thing at all ( as Dr. Gouge was to Dr. Chamberlain , and others , that shall here be nameless , unto my self ) but also why both they and their people have so little to answer when they come seriously to be reckon'd with about it , for verily as for the people , now the Lord comes by the spirit and power of Elijah , to restore things in the latter daies , to that primitive purity , which hath been of old deserted , and to expostulate with them for that Baalitish worship , which Iezebell the Queen hath stirred up the Kings of the earth to set up among them , they are either shiftless and speechless before his messengers , so that we may say of them as of that be-Baalited people that stood before the old Elijah ; viz. the people answered him not a word , or else nothing is answered that hath any shew of sense or reason to the purpose ; and sometimes such a miserable mess , and goodly Gallimaufrey of reasons is rendred in defence of that one Babish Babilonish way of sprinkling Infants Infonts ( to instance in no other ) the very naming of which ( to name no more then hath been nam'd , in way of Account thereof in my own hearing ) is evidence enough , that some men ) for some are not so gropably blinded as some , though all too grosly that go off from truth ) are more then half minded , because they know not well what to say , therefore to say they well know not what : viz ▪ are we wiser then our forefathers ? shall we think that so many learned Orthodox divines would practise it if it were not the truth ? I am sure it was a custome before we were born ; how shall our children come to have names , if they be not Christned ? how can they be saved if they die unchristned ? they are not Christ'n creatures till they have their Christ'ndome , and such like : As for the Priests , they have been so rubd up of late , that they have been forc't to find more witnesses , indeed more then the Scripture affords to stand by them at rheir Bason-Business , and how eagerly they agree altogether in one Clashis is shew'd hereafter : but the antient standard of all , which is at hand to serve every ones turn , as a Text in the pulpit , and as a Testimony to the truth of their false way at every turn , is that which every one hath by Roat , and by Root of heart , and at fingers ends , more then the Root , heart , Right end , and sense of those texts they take it out of , viz. They brought little children to Christ , by his permission , that he should touch them , and to such belongs the Kingdom of heaven , Ergo , Infants in infancy must be baptized , the consequence of which , as t is no less then this , they brought sick folks unto Christ , by his permission , that he should touch them , and to such belongs the Kingdome of heaven , Ergo , sick folks must be baptized in the time of their sickness , so it swayes not me , if it be somewhat more then that of the Papists , viz. they brought an Ass for Christ to ride on , Ergo , Asses are blessed creatures , that have a cross upon their crests ever since , and as for that in special that bore him , happy are hundreds of people that can every one get a leg of him . And now whereas you say you feared it ; Oh that you did indeed fear the unanswerable crime of deserting the truth to be charg'd upon you , then would you return from whence in the uniuersal deluge you are departed , and stand up to maintain that faith , Gospel , baptism , Church , Order which was once delivered to the Saints ; but now you stand up for error and mans invention , and though you seem to salve all ore so surely , and to answer so handsomely that all men cannot discry you , yet doth not he see all your wayes , and count all your steps ? if therefore you are stept aside out of the way , and walk in vanity upon fetches and far fecht consequences , despising the cause of God , when in plainness he contendeth it with you , out of the mouth of babes , what will you do when he riseth up ? when he visiteth what will you answer ? yea , when he asks who hath required this at your hands ? you will be as blank before him about your Baby-sprinkling , as they about their Bawble Bell-sprinkling , both being but limbs of the Idol Bell that serves the bellies of the Priest-hood ; your non prohibition excuses one no more then the other . Though therefore you still strive to startle men into a joint perseverance with you in that way , which you are so disjointed about among your selves , yet when Christ speaks to you in his wrath , for changing his laws , he will silence you , yea , he will startle the strongest of you , who by your superstitions offend his weak little ones , and instead of pulling them out ( as you ought to do in all your preaching places ) confirm those whole parishes in their errors , who were fallen before you came to them , Pre. Farewell . Post. So you say indeed , but your Reader may fare ill enough for ought you have set before him in your ensuing Tractate ; you feed him with a first , second and third course , yet all such course fare , that his soul may starve , that takes no other course then you here put him upon , in order to the salvation of it , which is no other then under a pious pretence , and seeming notion of avoiding Anabaptism , Heresie and Schism to keep off from ever owning Christ in his own baptism , and to bid Farewel for ever to the onely way of Truth and Peace . These few faults that have escaped the Press in this foregoing part , the Reader is desired in order to his better understanding of the Authors meaning to correct as followeth . PAge 1. line 27. read volumninous , p. 15. l. 21. read indeed , p. 16. l. 54. r. it p. 17. in the marginal note , r. psittaco , also r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , also r. conari , p. 19. in the marginal note r. you , who also term your selves , p. 23. l. 27 , 28. r. not , p. 21. l. 45. r. they mightly , also l. 30. r. when he had been . ANTI-BABISME . OR THE BABISH DISPUTATION AT ASHFORD FOR BABY — BAPTISM DISPROVED . AND now Sirs , having dispatcht my Disproof of your first piece of Patch , viz. your True Ac-count-erfeit of the Disputation , I address my self to a Disproof of your Disputation it self , which I take all men to witness , is such a cloudy , crooked , confused , self confuting , indefinite Mingle-mangle , and muddy mess of Argumentation , as was seldome or never ( I perswade my self ) set forth to be viewed , and reviewed from the pens of professed Disputers . I shall first say a word to it in generall , and then to each Argument in it's order . The General● praecognitum , which I would have you and all men take notice of is this , first either that you do not dispute , but rather most miserably mis-pute besides the Question , as stated between us , and the Position you took upon you to prove , which was only that Infants of believers are to be baptized ( as is laid down in the second Proposition pa. 1. ) for you run on all along in such generall terms , viz. Children , Infants , little ones , little infants , little children , seldome or never naming the term of believing parents , which ought of right to have been exprest in every Argument that past you , in order to distinction of those Infants , whose cause onely you plead , whose peculiar right to Baptism you profess to prove , from all other Infants , viz. of Infidels , or unbelievers ; and this I observe is your manner in all your discourses , for when ever you come to dispute this point , you state your question still in terms too narrow , and such as are no more adaequate to your proofs , then to your practise ; for in your question you dare affirm no further , then that such children only as are born of believing parents , are to be baptized , but as your practice over reaches this by far , while you dispense your Baptism Rantism to all infants , even those of such parents , who in your preachings are noted for no believers , so in your proofes you overlash as much , and shoot far more wide from your Principle , and profess'd opinion , which is that no infants , but those of believers , have right to Baptism , when yet you huddle over all in such indefinite language as pleads the baptism of all infants as well as some . Or else secondly , if yee will needs have us to understand you all along as meaning believers infants only , in contradistinction to all other infants , to whom your selves say baptism at all belongs not , then you and all may see how curiously you come off , how egregiously you● genius hath gull'd you all along , for verily if mine own Minerva may be credited by me , there 's not one inch of Argument dictated to you , nor tittle of consequence brought by you for the evincing the right of the one to baptism , viz , the Infants of believers ; but if it tended truely to such a purpose , it would tend as truely , and undeniably to evince the other , viz. the right of baptism to unbelievers Infants also , to whom ( in pretence ) you deny it as well as we : yea I appeal to all rational men in the world to judge , whether you have brought one argument in either your Account , or Review , which may not as well be used ( though that 's ill enough too ) on behalf of one of these sorts of Infants , as to the clearing their right to baptism , as of the other ? There is but four general heads ( for all the rest of your proofs are but subordinate to one or other of these ) from whence you inferr not only that it is lawfull to baptize believers Infants ; but also that it is wickedness to deny it , viz. First , The being , and appearing of the Holy Spirit to be in Believers Infants . Secondly , The Deteriorty of the Gospel-Covenant Comparatively to that of the Law , if when little infants of the Iews were all circumcised , little infants of believing parents may not now be baptized . Thirdly , the Desperateness or Cruelty that is in the denyall of Baptism to infants of believing parents , or the destructiveness thereof to all hope of their salvation in the hearts of their parents , and down-right endangering their Damnation ( so dying ) if baptism be denyed them . Fourthly , The practise of the Vniversall Church , which having for many hundred years together administred baptism to infants , may not without damnable blasphemy be once thought to have erred so long a time , in so necessary a matter as baptism . All which four considerations ( not to speak as yet of their utter invalidity to prove the baptism of any infants at all , for so I must do by and by ) I am now to shew how they do not a jot more prove the warrantableness of baptizing of believers infants , to whom we deny that Ordinance , then of the infants of very Infidells , and unbelievers , to whom your selves Doctrinally deny it also . As for the last , which I le begin with first , and so go back to that which is first indeed , viz. the practise of the universal or Catholique Church ; I confess indeed that what you , and the Pope too do call the universal Church , viz. Christendome , or to use your own phrase , the Christian world , which with me rather is , and hath been for many ages Antichristian , that vast voluminous Church body , and Ecclesiasticall Empire , or seven headed , ten horned universall beast , that the Whore , or CCClergy hath so universally bejaded , this hath universally baptizid , or rather but rantized infants , universally I say , not only in respect of time , and place , i. e. in every nation , province , and parish within her Verg , in every age of her Reign , but also in respect , of the subject , viz. all infants that are born in those several nations of what parents soever , whether believers or unbelievers , without exception , and by so much more to infants of very unbelievers then of believers , by how much ( as your selves witness in your pulpits ) Christs flock in respect of the rest , that are none of his , even in Christendome it self , is but a little flock , yea and the number of unbelievers , in the very Protestant , and most reformed nations of it , which dispense baptism to infants as universally as the other , is even many to one surpassing the number of believers : But Sirs , what is all this to you purpose , I say to your purpose , which is to prove by example of the universall Church , the practise of baptism to infants of believers onely ? Suppose this , which you mistake so to be , were the true Church of God ▪ indeed , and that her practise were set for our example , and such a true Topick , as Priests and Papists make it , from whence to fetch good warrant to do the like , yet I pray Sirs , doth it not as well warrant the baptism of unbelievers infants , against which you plead , together with us , as of such infants as are born of believing parents only , the baptism of which infants only you plead against us ? will you argue from the universality of the Christian worlds doings to the particularity of your own sayings , as if the universal baptizing of all unbelievers infants , as well as others in all Christendome were an Argument ab exemplo , and a plain ; As for Example , that the infants of believers only are to be baptized ? Sirs , what if a man were minded in jest to become a fool so far , in order to the convicting you of folly , as to maintain against you , who deny it , that not believers infants onely , but those of unbelievers also must be baptized , and should argue this ab exemplo , might he not ( as Dr. Featly saies to us in another case ) kill you with your own Dudgen dagger ? for seriously Sirs , as far as that example is of force , it overturns your turn , who use it , in the thing in order to which you alledge it , and overthrows you clearly in your question , as you state it , and in your tenet of a right to baptism , for only believers infants ; exemplifying rather , if the example were to be heeded , the baptizing , not of such infants only as are born of believing parents , which we are against , but such as are born of unbelieving parents also , whose baptism your selves are against , as well as we . Ad hominem therefore I conclude , and ab exemplo on behalf of unbelievers infants , as your selves do from the same head on behalf of believers infants only , thus , viz. To hold that the universal Church , or Christian world hath erred in so necessary a matter as baptism , for so many hundred years , is little less than damnable blasphemy . But to hold it an error to baptize the infants , that are born of unbelieving parents , is to hold that the universal Church , or Christian world , which hath baptized in suo genere such as well as others , hath so long erred , in so necessary a matter as baptism . Ergo to hold it an error to baptise the infants that are born of unbelieving parents , is little less then damnable blasphemy . Another Argument whereby you strive to evince your opinion , viz. the baptism of believers infants above other infants , and to evade ours , viz. the denial of baptism to them both alike , as desperate and ungodly , is drawn from the danger of their damnation if it be denied them , and the destructiveness of that denyal to all that hope , that else may be had of their salvation , which if it be of force , doth it not cry out as loud against your desperate , and ungodly cruelty on behalf of those millions of innocents of infidells , dying infants , to whom in opinion , and doctrinally you deny baptism as well as we , as it doth on behalf of believers infants , who are no more innocent then the other , to whom we deny it also ? for if it be such a business , as not we , but you , and the rest of the right Romish Priests seem to make it , the denial of which , de jure & facta , damnes so down-rightly the infants dying without it , that there 's no hope to be had of their salvation , so you say , or else my shallow noddle cannot reach the profoundity of your purpose , in pettering out that pure pious piece of sense which with this Argument of yours is stuffed pag. 13. then it s high time , as high a degree of charity as you would be thought to have towards a few infants , viz. one of a hundred , for scarely so many are true believers infants to the rest , to plead for the baptism of unbelievers infants too , and stand up in the cause of those innumerable poor babes , that cannot speak a word for themselves against your Cruelties , who deny baptism to them , and deny all hope of their salvation to whom ( they so dying ) it is deni'd : yea verily Sirs perswade us to that once , and make us believe that popish trumpery , that the deniall of baptism to any infants doth so much as doctrinally damn them , and then I 'le plead for baptizing of infants in a larger way then you who confine it to believers infants onely , viz. for the baptism of all babes and sucklings in the world , and that least they die , and so be damn'd before it be dispensed to them so soon as they are well out of the womb : so far are we from that cruelty to infants , which you ( commonly , though not properly ) charge upon us , tha if we thought as you think ( but Sirs mistake us not , for we have good ground to act more charity then your selves do to all dying infants ) could we think I say that their salvation did so depend upon their baptism , that their damnation would be the issue of denying it , we durst not be so desperately cruell as your selves , nor limit it to some one infant of an hundred , know Sirs we are tender in our construction of the condition of all that die in such minority as you sprinkle in , before they have known or done either good or evil , and are well assured there 's no damnation to such , of what parents soever descended , and as little need of your Rantism to their salvation ; but for you who are so seemingly compassionate and charitable to a few , how churlish are you to a hundred to one , whilst your cruel doctrine ( excepting such as are born of believers onely ) curses all the rest unavoidably to hell ? you talk much of your own charity to infants , and our cruelty ; but truly Sirs I dare tell you that your tender mercies to that age of infancy are meer cruelty , so long as in your childish dotage on some , you send so many packing to perdition ; and as unchristian as our cruelty is , it hath more tender mercy in it to the whole infancy of the world , then all your Christian charity doth yet amount to ; for as you prescribe it p. 5. 't is our rule indeed , but not your own , presumere unumquemque , bonum , nisi constet de malo , to presume and hope well , even the best things , and things that accompany salvation of all infants , as well as some , specially since it cannot appear that any of them have yet by any actual sin bard themselves , or deserv'd to be exempted from the general state of little children declared in Scripture , which is a right to the Kingdome of heaven : but your Christian charity hath not carried you out so farre yet , as to hope and presume well of infidels infants , unbelievers infants , or any unrantized infants , though it cannot appear that any of these have by any actuall sinne more barr'd themselves , then the other , or more deserved to be exempted from that general state of little children declar'd in Scripture then the infants of the best believers in the world . Whether therefore we , who though we baptize no infants at all , nor see warrant in the word so to do , yet believe , and that not ungroundedly , nor as being more merciful then God shews himself to be to them , the salvation of all that die in infancy , or one who imagining as sillily as your selves , that no baptism , no salvation , should thereupon for pitty dispute against you limiters of Gods grace , for the baptizing of all infants in the world , or your selves , who supposing the same , i. e. no hope to be had of their salvation to whom baptism is denied , have yet no more pitty in you , then to dispute for the baptism of believers infants onely , excluding all other infants from it ( in doctrine though not all in practise ) which are no less then an hundred to one , whereby not a moity onely but all , save a small moity of infants in the world , yea , in the very Christian world , in which the most by far are unbelievers , are cut off at once from not the Church on earth onely , but all share in the Kingdom of heaven also , which of all these I say , viz : we , he , or you , are most cruel and desperate , and do most justly deserve the censure which you Priests put upon us , p. 15. of your pamphlet of damning infants dying , contrary to evident testimony of Scriptures ; and of damning innumerable innocents , such as infants of infidels are , whose right to the Kingdome of heaven our Saviour declared ; I propound it to be considered by your selves , and all other men at leasure ; at present , seeing this Argument of yours makes also more against then for you , whose plea is for some infants against other , if your Minor in it , viz. that denial of baptism to infants destroyes all hope of their salvation were true , as it is not , and speaks for a necessity of baptizing all infants , and not a few onely , I 'le Syllogize it back upon you in much what your own terms , and so pass hence to the other . That opinion which destroyes all hopes of the salvation of many dying infants to one in the world , yea , in the very Christian world too , is a most desperate , ungodly , uncharitable opinion . But the opinion of you Priests , who deny all hopes of salvation to those to whom baptism is deni'd , and yet deny it doctrinally your selves to all unbelievers infants , which are many to one in the Christian world , and dispute for its dispensation to believers infants onely , is such as destroyes all hope of the salvation of many dying infants to one , as well in the Christian world as elsewhere , Ergo , the opinion of you Priests is a most cruel , desperate , ungodly , uncharitable opinion . Another fine fancie , whereby you would fain juggle men into a belief that believers infants and these onely are to be baptized , runs thus , else ( say you ) the Gospel Covenant is worse then that under the law , forasmuch as then litle infants were circumcised : Now Sirs , when I come to meddle with this Argument ore again I shall shew you plainly the imbecillity of it to prove the baptism of any infants at all , and the mel●ority of the Gospel-Covenant above that of the law , though infants be not now baptized as Circumcised then ; at present I am to shew how , if it would prove any thing , it would prove the right of baptism to unbelievers infants , to whom you deny it , as well as to believers infants , whose baptism onely you seem to plead by it : I say suppositively that this is to make the Gospel-Covenant worse then that of the law , to deny baptism to infants now , sith they then admitted infants to Circumcision , then the denial of it to believers infants , which is your own opinion , makes it worse then it was under the law , as well as the denial of it to infants of believers , for under the law the infants of unbelievers , which were many to one believer among the Iews , Is. 53.1 . were both de jure and de facto circumcised , as well as those of the believing Iews , and so by your own rule ought the one to be baptized now as well as the other : Again by the denial of baptism to the infants of unbelievers , not onely a moity but the most of Christendome , as in which are by far more unbelievers infants then others , are cut off at once from baptism and membership , I conclude therefore thus . If that opinion which denies baptism to little children , makes the Gospel-covenant worse then that under the law , then the opinion of those Priests , who deny baptism to all unbelievers infants , whereby not a moity onely , but most of the Christian world , in which the most are unbelievers , are cut off from being members of the Church , makes the Gospel-Covenant worse then the law . But ( though not veraciter , yet secundum te O Presbiter ) that opinion which denies baptism to little children , whereby a moity of the Christian world is so cut off , makes the Gospel-Covenant worse then that under the law . Ergo , thy opinion which denieth baptism to all unbelievers infants whereby more then a moity of infants is so cut off , makes it worse under the Gospel then under the law . Another curious conceit , whereby you undertake to clear the right of baptizing the infants of believing parents above others , is the being , and plain , yea more plain appearing of the holy spirit to be in these children then in others , or then in men , whom we baptize that make profession , which plain and sufficient appearance ( so you stile it p. 5 ) of the spirits being in these children , is made ( say you ) many waies , First by these infants faith , Secondly , by these infants holiness , Thirdly by those Eulogies that are given to these children in Scriptures , not inferiour to those of the best Saints . Fourthly , by that Scripture in special 2 Cor. 13. know you not that the Spirit ( that Christ you should have said ) is in you except ye be reprobates , lastly and mainly by these childrens non-appearing not to have the spirit , by these childrens not appearing to be evil ; by these infants not appearing by any actuall sin , to have barr'd themselves , or deserved to be exempted from the general state of little infants declared in Scripture , by all which on pain and guilt of the breach of Christian charity , whose rule is praesumere unumquenque bonum , nisi constet de malo , we are bound to believe that these infants of believing parents ( not of others ) have evidently enough the holy spirit : Now Sirs the Lord help you to your eye-sight , if it be his wlll ; for I le be bold to say these Seers are as blind as a beetle , what ever they seem to themselves to see , who by any thing at all that is here brought do discern the holy spirit to be in any infants , but this which is to the present purpose may be more safely asserted , that all this proves it not one jot more to be in the infants of believers , then it proves it to be in unbelievers infants , to whom you deny baptism as well as we , in plea , pretence , and prate at least , but not altogether in practise , for verily these have as much promise of the spirit as the other , those parents Acts 2. being yet unbelievers while Peter spake to them , saying , the promise is to you and your children , yea these have as much capacity for the spirit , as much manifestation of the spirit , as much capacity to believe , as much holyness , as much Eulogie in Scripture , for Christ commends not the infants of some parents above the infants of others , but indefinitly the whole age of infancy alike , as little appearance yet of being reprobates , and so consequently as much appearance that Christ is in them as in the other , as little appearance of evill , of actual sin , whereby to bar themselves , or deserve exemption from the generall state of little children declared in Scripture , as is in the infants of believers , all which shall plainly appear out of hand , and much of it out of your own handy work , in my handling of your first Argument in particular , which now I am return'd to again , I shall begin with , and so pass through it to all the rest , with which I must deal once over again as they ly in order , in your Relation , and Review : which first argument of yours is laid down in this form , viz. Disputation . No man may forbid water to those that have received the holy Ghost , Acts 10.47 . But little children have the holy Ghost . Disproof . In which Syllogism of yours howbeit I then did , and do still deny your Minor as the main matter that is amiss , the falsity of which I shall discover , yet there is much fault to be found with your Major , in that you repeat the words of Peter but lamely , and by the halves out of that Scripture whence you quote it , which you adulterate and abuse , unless you had inserted the whole sentence , the chief clause of which , viz [ as well as we ] which is most needfull to be exprest to the true proof of any ones right to baptism therfrom you whether more forgetfully or fearfully least the falsity of your Minor should be the more discried by it I say not , do yet leave out alltogether : In the absence of which clause the falsity of your Minor lies undiscerned , which upon the putting in thereof would appear ( if it be possible for it so to do ) more palpably false then now it doth , specially to every common capacity , whereupon very probably you left it out , for if your Major had been thus , viz. no man may forbid water to those that have received the holy spirit , as Peter and other adult Disciples had , i. e. visibly and apparently unto others , by the acts , fruits , and effects of it , as the words [ as well as we ] do import , your Minor then must have ran thus , viz. but little children have the holy spirit as well as Peter and those adult Disciples Act. 10.47 . i. e. visibly , undoubtedly , apparently to others , and then it had been more apparently false in the eyes of all , for verily how perspicuous soever it is to you Clergy men , who for your own ends , seemingly see what you see not , as well as sometimes see not what you see , and to your implicit criditors , that will seem to see that you see , whether it be to be seen or no , yet to such as are resolved to see with their own eies , and not yours , it is so far from being so visible , and apparent that infants have the holy spirit , as t was that Peter and the rest had received it , that it is a thing invisible to you , and more then ever did or yet doth or ever will appear to any , but the blind , and the blind leaders of the blind , while the world stands , by all you have here stitcht up together to make it appear by ; the inefficacy of all which to any such purpose as you use it for , having thus hinted the crafty quoting , and cunning coining of your Major , besides the sence of the Scripture you fetch it out on , I shall ( God willing ) make sufficiently to appear in my Examination of your Minor ; the proof of which I now come to consider . As therefore to your Minor , which is this , viz. little children have the holy Ghost , I lay two evils to the charge of it , first a faultering in the terms , secondly , a falsity in the thing testified in it . First it s delivered in tam dubiis terminis , such a dubious and indefinite form of speech , viz. little children , not at all expressing what children , nor believers children distinctly from others , but all alike , which muddling expression of the subject , of whom you praedicate this that they have the holy spirit , is made well nigh every where else throughout your book , and possibly on purpose to shelter that absurdity from being too apparent , which unless you dream'd out this Disputation , a more determinate delivery of your s●lves all along in these terms , viz. infants of believers , you foresaw would light upon it ; Nevertheless , as indefinitely and implicitly as you set down your subject , you cannot hide the nakedness thereof let your meaning be what it will , for you must take it in some or other of these senses , viz. all little children have the spirit , or unbelievers little ones onely have the spirit , or believers little ones have the spirit , or some children have the spirit but we cannot tell which ; nor whether these more then those , or those more then these , the spirit being neither bound to all the children of believing parents , nor barred from any of the children of infidels : you cannot understand it of unbelievers children only , nor yet of all children , nor yet of unbelievers and believers children promiscuously , so as to say some of these and some of those , but in particular it cannot certainly be presumed which , though he that reads your eighteenth page , where you confess there can be no conclusion made , which have it , and which not , can hardly tell how to take you handsomely in a better sense , for then all men will say fie upon it , how miserably do these Logicians labor all along besides their question , they propound the baptism of believers infants only , but proceed to prove the baptism of all children , or of unbelievers children onely , or at least of unbelievers children equally with the other ; they plead to have none but believers infants baptiz●d , yet affirm the holy spirit , the supposed being of which in these infants is the main ground on which they would have these only baptized , to be in all infants , at least in other infants ( for ought they know ) as well as these ; ye● even in those infants , even Infidels infants , whom yet they would not have baptiz'd , so partial and cruel are they to these , though the denial of baptism to poor infants ( in their own opinion ) destroies all hope of their salvation : but if you take it for little infants of believers only , concerning which only the question was stated , then every wise man will wound you as much on the other hand , and say thus how miserably do these men fumble about their business , both proving and practising more then themselves believe to be the truth ; they assert infants of believers only have the holy spirit , and undertake to prove it in contradistinction to other infants , yet produce nothing more towards the proof of it , then what tends , if it do tend indeed to such a purpose , to prove it to be in all infants as well as those , how egregiously do these Priests gull and cheat their people , they profess the holy spirit to be in no infants , save those onely that are born of believing parents , and that these onely are thereupon to be baptized , and yet practise ( another thing under the name of ) baptism to unbelievers infants in their parishes , whom they truly judge not to have the spirit , in common with those whom as blindly they judge to have it , i. e. not the seed of true believers only , but the seed of true and apparent unbelievers also . The second fault I charge upon your Minor Proposition is an utter falseness in the matter affirm'd in 't , for take the term little children for what little ones you please , these or those , t is utter untruth to utter any such thing as that infancy have the holy spirit , much more that believers infants have it more then others , neither is there any strength in any one thing you have presented the world with to prove either one of these , or yet the other : and howbeit I say suppositively , that all appear to have it , if any at all , by what you have here produc'd in proof on 't , yet I 'le positively prove , and partly by way of answer to your own argument , that neither ●ll infants have the holy spirit , nor any at all , in such non-age as you falsly supposing they have it , do thereupon baptize in : to this end I would I wist what you mean by the holy Ghost ( as you call him , but I all along the holy spirit ) I am in doubt you scarcely well know your selves , or else you would not predicate him to be in infants , in such wise as here you do ; I 'le indeavour therefore to search out what your meaning may be , by a serious survey of the senses which the holy spirit seems to be taken in in the word , of which I am confident , if you know what you mean , you must mean one . The spirit which is but one and the self same in substance where ere he is , is yet spoken of in Scripture in two , and but two different senses in general , so far as I find , and that answerably to two different offices , which he exercises towards two different kinds of men in the world , viz. godly and wicked , believers and unbelievers , Saints and sinners ; these two several offices , which that one holy spirit is found in towards these severall sorts of men , are either more common or more special , general or peculiar ; the common or general office of the spirit is to convince and inlighten , draw , move , perswade , strive with men to bring them into the way of obedience to God , and of their own good , and this he executes universally to all men , and in this sense is in all men and women , good and bad , godly and wicked , Saints and sinners , Jews and Gentiles , Christians and heathens , but not in the one day old infants of any of all these ( that I know of . ) The will of man , even every man , so soon as he comes to such capacity as to be able to discern between good and evill , stands ever after , even all the daies of his life , between two wooers that sollicit him , and seek to win him to their service , and which ere wins him ( finally ) to its service will everlastingly and accordingly reward him with life or death Rom. 6.17 . to v. 23. Gal. 6.7 , 8. And these two are mans flesh , and Gods spirit , which are evermore lusting in him one against the other , and between them perswading him ( each in their kind ) in this sense he is in the blindest heathens that breath on earth ( natural fools and infants onely excepted , of whom as far as nothing is required , because nothing revealed , so far they have nothing to answer for ) yea the very Gentiles which have not any law in an outward letter , as we have , are said Rom. 2.14 , 15. to be a law unto themselves , and to shew the work of the law written in their hearts ▪ and to have their conscience and thoughts witnessing within , accusing and excusing one another , which can be no other ( though commonly call'd the light of nature ) then a light from God and Christ , who is said to enlighten every man that cometh into the world , and so doth more or less , even such as never yet knew his person ( as the Sun sends some light in some corners of the earth , where the body of it is not at all discerned ) yea the very spirit of God shining and striving in them , answerably to which Gods spirit is said Gen. 6. to strive with man , even those evill men of the old world that rebell'd against it , by which spirit Christ himself is said to have preacht to those disobedient persons , while the long suffering of God waited on them , in the da●es of Noah , whose outward ministry he also used , while the Ark was preparing 1 Pet. 3.19 , 20 , the same spirit is said Ioh. 16. to be sent to convince the very world of sin , righteousness and judgement , yea the stift-necked and uncircumcised Iews both in heart and ears are said Act. 7. alwayes to have resisted the holy spirit , which they could not have done had he not wrestled with them , yea within them , thus farre all men have him , even ill men , the worst in the world , at some time or other , by which spirit the Son of righteousness is the light of the Microcosme , or inward world of mans heart , as the Sun , by the beams that stream from the body of it , is the light of the Megacosme , or outward universe . In this sense I cannot conceive you take the holy spirit here , or if you do , you mistake not a little , if you say infants have him thus , for howbeit , in these ordinary wayes of his acting all persons male and female may be said to have him at the years of capacity to distinguish , yet infants of one day old have him not in this sense , or if they had 't will make no more for the baptism of them then of all men and women in the world , much less have they him in those special waies of acting , in which he acts in the Saints , till at least they come to be so far past that minority as to be sensible of his acting towards them . Which speciall and more eminent acts and offices of the spirit are on this wise , viz. special assisting in doing good , when by common strivings with them men are perswaded , and prevaild with to set about it , and when in his first motions he is obey'd ; also comforting , supporting in and under troubles , trials , sufferings , temptations , persecutions , which will assuredly light on those that do obey him , assuring souls more and more clearly of Gods love and favour , witnessing to their spirits that they are the children of God , enabling them with boldness to cry Abba father , sealing them up to the day of Redemption , confirming them as an earnest in their present confidence of a future inheritance , kingdom , glory , revealing to them more plainly the things freely given of God , so that they rejoice mainly therein , whilst others to whom these things are foolishness , rejoice in the things of the world , lusts of the flesh , and of the eye , and of the pride of life ; lusting strongly against the flesh , delivering from the law of sin and death , warring against the law of the members effectually , which else would carry captive to the law of sin ; mortifying the deeds of the body , teaching all things , leading into all truth , guiding and gifting persons for the Churches service severally as he will , bringing all things to remembrance which Christ spake , which are subject to be forgotten , manifesting the Father , the Son , and many more things to them that love Christ and keep his commandements , which he will not manifest to the world , nor to any of those in it that do not , and other such like precious performances , in all which he officiates peculiarly towards the Saints onely that submit to him , not wicked resisters of him ; to which Saints , or true Disciples of the Lord Jesus , he was promised to be given under the Gospel in a fuller measure then in former daies , and sent to be their comforter ( whilst to such as entertain him not , but a bare convincer ) in which respect he is call'd the spirit of promise , as being promised in this sense to all those that obey Christ , that believe , repent , and are baptized into his name for remission of sins , and ask the father for him ; and to be set as by office to minister in way of succor to the mournful spouse in the bride-grooms absence , to help poor soules that give up themselves to be lead by him , and accordingly was , is and ever shall be given to those that do not grieve , resist and quench him , and that are found observing all things that ever Christ commanded , non-observation of which disingages Christ of his promise , so that it failes not , though he be not with men that name themselves his Church , for ages and generations together : In which senses he is not at ▪ all in infants in their infancy , neither doth he at all , guid , or provoke them , how far forth soever he may guard and protect them , till they come to such capacity as to have good or evil fasten'd on them by perswasion , nor doth he any of the aforenamed good offices for infants , in whom there 's yet no need they should be done , nor doth he delight ordinarily to be where either he must be idle ( as he must in infants of one , two or three daies old ) or ( unless he work miraculously ) imployed altogether to no purpose . As to that of Iohn concerning whom 't was promised he should be filled with the holy spirit from the womb , besides the singularness and extraordinariness of the case , which renders it unfit for you to argue from , who deny that such examples are to be drawn in as an ordinary rule to judge by , and confess that ex particulari non est Syllogizari ; I add moreover , that there 's no necessity for such an im●mediate acceptation of that word [ from the womb ] as to make the sense of it thus , viz. [ in the very moment of his birth ] for it may well be taken , as elswhere the same phrase must be , viz , [ so soon as ever he should be capable to receive it , and be assisted and guided by it ] which might be in his tender years , but was not I believe in such meer non-age as you wot off , thus the wicked are said , Psal. 58. 3. ab alinare se ab utero , to estrange themselves from God from the womb , to go astray as soon as they be born , speaking lies , stopping their ears , not hark-ring to the voice of the Charmer , which terms do all denote actuall sinne , by which your selves confess infants cannot bar themselves p. 5. or deserve exemption ; it must therefore be understood thus , viz. so soon as ever they are capable to do this or that , to take the right away or the wrong , or to know and act either good or evil . I assert therefore once again , that the spirit in this second sense is not in infants in their infancy , nor know I in what sense they can be said to have him , as to have right thereby to baptism , unless you can assign me some more senses out of Scripture , which if you can do , I shall tell you what to say to them , and as I cannot find they have the holy spirit in them , so neither find I any promise of the holy spirit in such non-age as you wot of , if by the spirit you mean the spirit of promise , as you must if you plead a right to baptism there from ; and if you should refer me to Act. 2. I find there no more made to any then to all ; indeed it s said the promise is to you and your children , but I advise you to consider , first , that t is not said to you and your infants , neither are children and infants all one in signification , the one expressing the age or rather non-age , the other the Relation to the parents , of whom they are born : e all infants are children of some parents or other , but all children are not infants : Infants are at least such younglings as cannot speak , but children may be children , in respect of their parents , though the parents be eighty years old and the children sixty , so that the promise of the spirit might be to them and their children too , i. e. their posterity , as well as to the Gentiles that were yet far off , in both time and place , and their posterity to all succeeding generations , and be made good too on the same terms , upon which , and the same time in which it s made good to the parents themselves , viz. the terms of faith , and the time of their believing , and yet all this while not be made to them and their infants , as in their infancy : moreover it appears most evidently that these parents were yet in unbelief , and bare inquiry after what they should do , having acted neither faith nor repentance as yet , when Peter said thus to them , repent and be baptized , and ye shall receive the holy spirit ; for the promise is to you and your children ; therefore it may seem rather to be to unbeleevers children by that place , then unto belieuers children ; but in very deed t is to all men and their children throughout the world , as they and their children should believe , repent , receive the word gladly , come to God at his call , and that in all ages and places to the worlds end ; and as children of unbelievers have as much promise of the holy spirit , so as much manifestation of it as the other , and that is just none at all . But say you these appear to have it first by their faith , i. e. as other mens infants do not , by their faith : Sirs this is no demonstrative Argument I am sure , that they have the Spirit , for demonstratio est ex notioribus conclusione , but this is Ignotum per ignotius , or at least per aeque ignotum for now you have much more ado by something else ( & hoc aliquid nihil est ) to demonstrate to us that they have faith , then before you had to demonstrate them to have the spirits ; yea this will puzzle you the more , by how much the last error is worse than the first , and more confuted in other places by your selves , however we will consider your Argument and supposing still that you speak of the right subject , viz. infants of believing parents ; we will cast this your Enthusiasm into this Enthememe . Disputation . Little children of believing parents have faith . Ergo little children of believing parents have the holy spirit . Disproof . First I deny your Consequence , secondly your Antecedent , as both stark false , and that is as much as can well be false in an Enthememe . First , I shall be bold to tell you Sirs , that your Argumentation from present faith , to a present having the holy Spirit is most invalid , and unconsonant to the Scripture , for if by the holy Spirit you mean ( as you must else it serves not your turn at all to the proof of baptism ) the spirit in that special sense , viz. the holy spirit of promise ; the consequen●e from faith to the having of it will not universally hold true , for as much as faith not only must be in time before it ( unless God be better than his word , and that he may be when he pleases , and so he was Act. 10 , 44. where the spirit by Anticipation was given out before obedience at least in baptism , which yet by promise cannot be expected till after it Ast. 2. 38. ) I say not only must be before it , but also may be a pretty while without it ; this will be counted the mad mans mad Divinity with you ( I doubt not ) but I le clear it to the Dimmest Divine of you all , yea see if the whole body of the Testament of Christ doth not tell you plainly , that as faith must be before it in an ordinary way , before we have warrant to expect it , so it may for some while be without it , and therefore cannot prove the holy spirit to be alwaies where it is ; for the spirit of promise is given after faith , if given according to the promise , and so long after it too now and then , as is enough to make it undeniably appear , that the having of faith , is no proof of ones present having the holy spirit : among sundry others let those Scriptures be seriously searcht into , Ephes. 1.13 . In whom after ye believed ye were sealed with the holy spirit of promise , Act. 19.2 . have ye received the holy spirit since ye believed ? they answered no , also Act. 8.12 . when they believed , &c. they were baptized , &c. but verse 16. the holy spirit was fallen upon none of them , only they were baptized , Act. 5.32 . The holy spirit which God hath given to them that obey him : yea the gift of the spirit though Gods ordinary way so limits not himself but that he may give it extraordinarily before Act. 10. yet is it neither promised nor ( as by promise ) to be expected but upon obedience in faith , repentance , turning to God , baptism and prayer Pro. 1.23 . Act. 2.38 . Luke 11.15 . Iohn 7.38.39 . the places are so plain to the purpose , that I 'le not disparage your judgement so much , as like a fresh man to stand to frame formal Syllogisms to you out of them : to conclude then as to your Consequence , had you argued from the holy spirit , in the special sence , in which you take it to faith , it might have past for me without correction , but ●ith you began at the wrong end of your business , I beseech you take it for a warning Sirs and begin again . Secondly , I deny your Antecedent , which if your Consequence were never so true , is most false , for infants of believers have not faith ; if they have unbelievers infants ( for ought you make appear to the contrary ) have as much , and so ( though that grieve and go against you , and cannot be owned so kindly by you in opinion as it is in practise ) must ( de jure ) be baptized , i. e. humano ( for Divino neither may ) as well as they ; but in truth as it will not appear by what you here bring to evince it by , that faith is in either , so I trust it will appear by what shall be said in disproof of your proofs , that faith can possibly he in neither . Disputation . You prove infants of believing parents to have faith two waies ( as you say ) first by express texts of Scripture , secondly Arguments of consequence . Your express Scripture is Mat. 18.6 . Whosoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : in the third verse ( say you ) they are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whence upon my confession and concession that in ver . 2. and 4. is meant one in respect of age , because it is said there he called to him a little child and who so humbleth himself as this little child , you therfore argue that little ones in respect of age are meant in that 6 verse also . Disproof . Sirs , let me ask you two questions , first are you sure these are infants indeed ? Secondly , are you sure they were infants of believers of whom Christ saies , whoever offends one of these little ones that believe in me ? for my part if there were any probability that he spake of little ones literally taken at all , as I know none there is , yet I am sure there is none that they were the little ones of believers he then spake of , in contradistinction to the infants of unbelievers ; for t is not specified either one way or other , and is most probable that the child he occasionally called to him might be some unbelievers child , or other , the number of believers , where e're he came , being few , and not comparable to them that believed not , but what e're that child was yet this is much more then probable , that by the term these lit●le ones in v. 6. he means not infants but his Disciples , whom , having first perswaded them to become such as that little one , or as little children in such things as are generally found in them , viz. plainness of spirit , humbleness , innocency , freedome from malice , in which respects David saies Psal. 131.2 . my soul is as a weaned child , from that Analogy that was and ought to be between little ones and them , he here bespeaks ( as it was very ordinary for him to do ) under the title of [ these little ones ] besides the plurall number he speaks in implies he spake of such of whom there was a plurallity then present , for saith he these little ones , pointing as it were to more then one , but there was but one little one then in the midst of them of whom when Christ speaks , he speaks , in the singular , saying this little child : as to the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is used in the third verse , whence you argue that they were children in age spoken of by our Savior , by which you seem much to strenghthen your selves in your Dabling of Infants foreheads , I must tell you that of the two you more marre than make your matter , by so much as mentioning of it in this case , for first 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though by some philosophicall or poeticall license it may possibly be used to signify [ Infantem ] some youngling of three or four years old , as ( though beginning to prattle ) can scarcely speak plain , yet cannot so much as poetically , much less properly signifie Infantissimum , such a one day old infant as you talk of , nor such a six dayes old suckling as you sprinkle , but properly it expresses at least one capable of erudition , and how beit it hath not its derivation from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as setting the cart before the horse , I say not ungraciously , for many a gracious man is no good Grecian , but ungraecianly you greek it out , yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath its derivation from it , for to say the truth , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the primitive of the two , and though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be the diminutive of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , puer , which is the primitive to them both , yet this is enough to shew that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be used , and yet not infancy meant by it neither , but childhood , which is a distinct age from the other , for there 's difference between Infantiam and pueritiam , as inter adolescentiam & inventutem , all which have their severall and proper periods , yea in truth it signifies child-ship , at least capable to be taught , not such meer babeship as you baptize . Secondly if it did , yet what 's that to your present purpose , which is to prove by the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the third , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the fourth verse , that Christ means the very same viz. little ones literally taken in the sixth ? as much as if you had said nothing at all , for verily as it follows not that he doth , so its evident enough that he doth not mean the very same in this phrase , verse six , viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whom he means in the third by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : for who doubts on 't but that by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the third verse , natural little children are to be understood , the intent of Christ there , being to shew how his disciples must be like them , if ever they enter into heaven ? but in verse six owning his disciples , to whom he tells that they must be such , as already such in some measure as they should be , he speaks of them under that very same name and notion ; and this was no unusual term for Christ to denominate disciples , nor yet for them to denominate one another by ; for besides that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it self is the title by which , though not here , yet elsewhere all believers and new converts to the truth are often stiled by , yea and your word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. sucklings too , which you make so much of a little below , yea and the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is the very diminutive of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a child , which word you make such a matter of when you find it Acts 2.36 . in proof of all which consult Iohn 21.35 . Gal. 19. 1 Iohn 2.1.12 , 13.18.28.3.7.18.4 : 4. also 1 Pet. 2.2 . even this very phrase that is here used viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is also used by Christ himself to his disciples Mat. 18.42 . and a place wherein as no little infant ( as here ) was apparently present , so compare it with the two foregoing verses , in which the same , who are call'd little ones and disciples , ver . 42. are stiled Prophets , Righteous men , and I 'le say you sell your selves to stark so●tishness , if you expound it of any other then of such , as are ( from Disco their having learn'd the truth , as infants yet have not ) stiled Christs Scholars or Disciples . But above all , the most undoubted reason of all the rest , which to me doth , and may to any one most plainly clear it , that he means not infants is even this very expression , viz. [ which believe in me ] whereby he denotes and denominates his disciples distinctly enough from all little infants , who are in no wise capable to do that he here ascribes to the other , i. e. to believe in Christ , for this infants being utterly uncapable to do , it shews plainly that he means not them : whereas Mr. Willcock , whose argument this was , and whose urging it ore again in print if this be , it shall not trouble my conscience , if it do not his own , whereas he I say argues thus , viz. [ These little ones which believe in me ] therefore infants do believe , I argue quite contrary from the same Scripture thus , viz. these of whom Christ speaks Mat. 18.6 . did believe , therefore they could not be infants , who cannot possibly believe . And if you ask me how I prove it that infants cannot believe , I might answer out of the mouth of Paul , Rom. 18.14 . how can they believe on him of whom they have not heard ? but sith you have a reply to this , p. 18 I le onely hint that here , and handle it further , as I have occasion given me to do by your answering it , as our objection , when I come to review your review , and at present prove the matter out of Mr. Willcocks own mouth , that infants cannot believe , for to believe is to act faith , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 credere ( as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Docere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 legere , &c , ) are speeches that point at the act and not the Habit or faculty , denoting actum secundum , non primum : This Mr. Willcock knows as well as I , yet the same Mr. Willcock , page 8. asserts as plainly and truely , so clearly to the contradiction of himself in this place , that infants have not the exercise and fruit of faith , have it not in actu secundo &c. but I spare him , in hope that he will consider it of himself , verbum sat sapienti : but suppose it were meant of infants literally ; yet however it could be but a Prosopopeia , i. e. a figure whereby that is attributed to certain creatures , as done by them , which yet is neither really done , nor so much as capable to be done by them at all , by which figure that is sometimes attributed not only to infants , but even to but sensible and bruit , and sometimes to insensible things , which can properly be done by none possibly but men at years , as not onely David is said to be made to hope in God while he hung upon the breasts , because God indeed was , even then the God that did defend him , yea as well in as from his mothers womb , though he was never sensible of , nor acquainted with it , so as to hope it in the womb , but the whole creation also figuratively , Rom. 8.19 , 20 , 21 , 22. is said to groan , wait , hope , desire , expect deliverance , because it stands in need of it , from the bondage of corruption , and God also hath determined the time wherein by Christ to redeem it , though many creatures under the curse are no more sensible of it , or capable to groan , then the fruitless fig tree Christ cursed , and the Ox , Ass , Horse , Sheep , and sensible creatures that may groan are capable to hope for , and expect such a glorious day as shall once come to the creation : thus figuratively indeed infants may be said to believe on Christ because they have need of his protection , and all the help they then have comes from him also , though in infancy they knew it not , nor him , so as actually to hope and trust in him for it , or properly to believe in his name , even more then inanimate creatures in the other case , this is the first way , whereby you profess to prove infants of believing parent onely ( if you speak to your proposed purpose ) to have faith , which how weak it is the weakest eye may discern it , that is not disposed to be blind , and the second is like unto it , which is as followeth , by two arguments of inconsequence . Disputation . Children of the Iews had faith , Ergo , children of believing parents now . The Antecedent is proved thus , viz. God himself did witness that the children of the Jews had faith , by setting to his seal , which was circumcision , called by the Apostle the seal of righteousness of faith . Disproof . There 's but two things to be own'd or disow'd at all in this piece of proof , as also in the former , viz. the Argument and the Antecedent , and I 'le deny him to be a Seer that sees not good ground whereon to deny them both , O fine ! O fine ! O fy : these you call your Arguments of Consequence , but ( saying that you say so ) I am verily perswaded the verieft implicit Simpleton that ever saluted the University , or sware Allegeance to your Crown and dignity , or was ever implicitly canonized into the obedience of your faith , will never see them so to be , when ceasing to see through your eyes , he shall come once to behold things with his own , for really they are the most false , absurd and inconsequent , that ever I saw with mine . Sirs , give me leave to make an answer by these ensuing Interrogatories , and I 'le expect your Answer to them again ; had the children of the Iews faith ? and did God himself witness that they had it , by setting Circumcision to them as his seal of it , i. e. ( for that 's the sense in which you take the word seal ) to assure men that they had it ? and is it the consequent that the children of believing parents have it now ? let me then ask you . First do you conclude that all the children of believing parents have it now ? that I think for shame you will not say , sith every experience witnesses the contrary ; or that some believers children have it now , therefore all believers children are to be baptized ? and if so , that is as silly an inference , as if you had argued thus , viz. some people believe therefore all must be baptized , Secondly , had the Jews children faith ? first I wonder how they came by it , sith the word saies faith comes by hearing , and how can there be believing on him of whom they have not heard ? and how can they hear without a preacher ? and how can they preach except they be sent ? and how can they be sent to preach to infants that understand not what is said ? except you say ( as you are fain to do , not for want of blindness p. 18. ) that infants have an hearing , and the spirit works upon them miraculously , and yet not extraordinarily neither , but in that ordinary way as he doth on men , in the conversion of whom you say the spirits working is but ordinary , and yet miraculous too , which Popish Bull deserves well to be baited , but I le fotbear to fall upon it , till I meet it in its proper place in the Review . Secondly , when had they it begotten in them ? in the womb ? or if after birth , on what day on the 1st , 2d , 3d , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th , or 8th ? for on some of these they received it , if on the 8th day they were ( as you say they were ) circumcised in token that they had it ; but I muse , and am yet to learn on which , and so are your selves too I believe , for all your confidence in asserting it . Thirdly , was Circumcision Gods witness , yea Gods seal to assure men of thus much , that those children to whom it was set had faith ? First , Risum teneatis amici ? did you ever read or hear that circumcision was set to infants to this end , viz. to testifie to the world that they had faith ? was it set to Ishmael as Gods witness that Ishmael had faith ? was it set to Esau as Gods witness that Esau had faith , when God who would not witness a ly , knew that neither the one of these had it , nor yet the other ? unless they lost it again , which sure you will not say ; for shame leave such sorry Shuffles , are your Masters in Israel and know not this that Circumcision was set to the Iews children , not to shew others that they did believe , but as a permanent sign thereof to shew them when they should be at years to take notice of it by sight ( as of that transient , unseen sign of sprinkling in infancy they cannot do ) what things they then should believe , viz. Christ to come of Abraham after the flesh , and circumcision of their hearts by him , &c. was it ever set under this notion as a seal of faith to any person in the world save to Abrahams proper person only , to whom too t was a seal not so much to witness , or assure men that he had faith , as to honor that faith , that more evidently , and eminently then ordinary he had before , with that famous title i. e. the Father of the faithful ? therefore circumcision as given to Abraham in Rom. 4.11 . is not said to be the seal of the righteousness of faith ( as you corruptly rehearse the words leaving out the residue of the verse , which makes them relate to Abraham only , as if it had stood as a seal in such a sense to all Abrahams posterity ) but a seal of the righteousness of the faith , i. e. that famous faith which he himself had , and to this end that he might be ( as none of his meer fleshly seed ever were ) the Father of all them that believe . Secondly , if circumcision were Gods witness that these infants , to whom it was dispensed , had faith , then certainly baptism , which with you at least is of such Analogy and Identity with Circumcision , that it hath the same subjects and significations , must also with you be Gods witness to others that those infants to whom it is dispensed have faith also , and if so then I must make bold to ask you two things : First , Is not this round about our coal fire , to prove two things no otherwise then one by another ? for when you prove that children are to be circumcised , or baptized ( which with you is all one , who falsly call baptism ( as Paul doth not in Col. 2.12 for he means another thing by that phrase , viz. that of the heart ) the circumcision without hands ) I say when you prove , that children are to be circumcised either one way or other in answer to our why ? you say because they have faith and thereby right to the Covenant , and the seals of it ; but when you come to prove that children have faith , which we deny , you say t is clear because they have circumcision , and baptism , which are Gods witnesses , seals or evidences to us that they have it : this is not Idem per Idem , the same by the same , that is too effeminate a probation , but t is eadem inter se , or per se invicem , the same things reciprocally by each other , and well nigh as womanish as that ; for whether is it better to say they have it because they have it , or to say it is apparent they have this because they have that , and that being as much doubted to clear it thus , viz. it is apparent they have that because they have this ; and if these two viz. faith and baptism , faith and Circumcision , did ponere se invicem , so that one could not possibly be without the other , they might the better probare se invicem , but 't is not so , for as faith may possibly be where neither Circumcision nor baptism are dispensed , witness the thief on the Cross , so ther 's neither of them but may be , and is too too much dispensed where faith is not . Secondly , let me ask you , is Gods witness , Gods testimony true , or is it false ? for say you God himself did witness it , that the children of the Iews , i. e. in infancy had faith : false you dare not say it is , nay you do not , but rather p. 5. that his testimony as to the truth of it , is to be preferred before mans , yea I say let God be true , and every man a liar , but if it be true , how then appears it to be so , if your testimony be not false ? how then came it to pass that the most of the Iews and their children sucessively in all generations had not faith when they came to years ? for it 's most evident that most of them were unbelievers , and therfore they could not enter into their rest ; but their carcasses fell in the wilderness ; I know but two shifts you can make , and 't is much at a pass which you take , for you will contradict your selves in either of them both , for surely , either they fell from that grace ( as those infants do also whom you sprinkle from that faith which ( as you say and seem to see ) once they had ) and this flatly contradicts your own doctrine of impossibility of falling from faith , or else they never had any such faith as you say they had in infancy , and then either Gods witness of such a thing must be a lye , which what horrid heresie were it to think , and abominable blasphemy once to utter ? or else God by Circumcision never witnessed such a thing , and that flatly contradicts your Antecedent , and so your selves will be found false witnesses of God , because you have testified of him that he himself did witness by Circumcision , that the children of the Iews had faith , when he never witnessed it at all . Fourthly , the fourrh grand Interrrgatory is this . Sirs , what children of the Jews had faith in their infancy witnessed by Circumcision , were they the children of the believing or unbelieving Jews ? for you are shy me thinks of expressing too often which you mean , and proceeed as indefinitely , that you may deceive as indiscernably as you can , if of the unbelievers then is not this goodly disputing , viz. Children of the unbelieving Iews had faith and circumcision . Ergo , children of believing Gentiles onely have faith , and must have baptism . Secondly , Is not this goodly doing ( if 't were your practise as strictly as 't is your plea ) to baptize onely believers children now upon their own faith , because unbelievers children of old were circumcised upon their own faith ? this straitens the grace of God under the Gospel , in comparison of the largness of it under the law , for then all children of unbeliving Iewes were circumcised by his appointment , as well as the infants of believers ; Answerably to which , if you go by that rule , you should conclude thus , uiz . all the Gentiles children should be baptized now , as well those of unbelievers as believers ' , but you turn out unbelievers children from the priviledge , that unbelievers children had before , but if you say children of believing Jews onely had faith then , therefore of believing parents now , then first how doth your Argument and proof drawn from Gods witnessing by Circumcision that there was faith in the Infants , hold any more to the proof of it in believers infants , then in unbelievers , for he set Circumcision to the infants of the wicked and unbelievers among the Jews as well as of the godly and believers . Secondly , how doth it appear at all that godly and believing parents children then had faith more usually then children of ungodly parents ? when good Ely had two vile sonnes Hophni and Phineas , good David , wicked Absolom , good Solomon , wicked Rehoboam , good Iehosaphat , wicked Ioram , good Iosiah , wicked Iechoniah and his brethren , &c. when contrariwise wicked Ahaz begat good Hezekiah , wicked Abia , good Asa , wicked Amon , good Iosia , , which shews that faith is not entail'd from parents to posterity as you would make it . Thus I have spoken to your first way , wherby you prove Infants of believers to have the spirit , and thereupon right to baptism , viz. their faith , and to a first and second of those whereby you seem to prove them to believe , there is yet a third way whereby you would make men believe that Infants of believers do believe , viz. their Iustification , without which there is no salvation , but because that 's not inserted here at all , but toward the end of the disputation , and is prosecuted most vigorously in your Review , I will suspend the prosecution of that head , till I come thither , and proceed next to a consideration of the second , third , fourth and fifth ways , as they lie in order , whereby you would prove believers infants to have the spirit , above the infants of unbelievers . Disputation . The next thing whereby you offer proof of it that infants of believing parents onely ( remember these still are the subject on which you pretend to proceed , and predicate that these denominants , viz. the spirit , faith , holiness &c. ) that these I say have the holy spirit , is their holiness from whence you confess here that there was no Argument taken , that is to say , 't was not proved , and yet a little above p. 3. in the fourth and fifth line of this sum , aliâs some of your disputation , you as blindly as boldly bolt it out , that it was proved by their holiness : the Apocaliptical beast that was and yet was not , scarcely seems more Apocriphal to you , then this was and was not of yours seems Apoplexical , or brainsick to me : This True-ly might have been rankt among the rest in your true Account , but to let it pass thus , this cannot but be granted for a truth , that you made as if you would have proved it by their holiness , that infants of believers have the spirit , but did not , because I wisht you ( but ( fool that I was ) I have been sorry since that I did at all wish you ) to forbear it , for as I was not affraid to give way to your proof then ( save onely that I was well aware you would but trifle ) so since I marvelled a little more upon the matter , I have found it of more facillity to prove infants-sprinkling by the popes holiness , whose mandamus it is , then by any holiness of their own . Disproof . I le muse a little if you will , now I am upon it , by what kind of holiness of theirs you would have prov'd it : I deny not but there may be in infants of believers a kind of holiness , yet there 's neither that kind by which you commonly conceive you can , nor any kind by which you possibly can evince the verity of such a practise . The holiness you mean certainly is either Matrimonial , Ceremonial , or Morall Morall holiness , I cal that which is opposed to sin , moral wickedness and profaness of heart and life , but sure you do not mean this holiness , or if you do , what do you mean by it ? do you mean some inward quality , inherent habit or principle of grace and spiritualness , as whereby these infants of believers may be denominated as the true Saints or holy ones of God are viz. Partakers of his holiness as Heb. 12 , 10. and holy i. e. qualitative , though not quantitative , in the same manner , though not the same measure ? and if you do , is this habit innat●s , acquisitus or infusus , by birth , or begotten in them by frequent acts of holiness , or infused from above ? for one of these three it must be , if it be an Habit . But 't is not the first , for secundum te at least ( O Priest-hood ) they are born in sin , and are by birth this way as unholy as any others . Not the second , for secundum te again , by your own confession these are not capable in infancy to act either good or evill , yea instruction of the understanding must go before any actings be , yea weigh but your own expressions a little p. 18. of your Pamphlet where you tell us thus much in plain terms , that instruction of the understanding in matter of faith in some sort , must go before any act of faith can be discovered ; to which I fully assent , and add , that instruction of the understanding in matter of holiness , ( and this infants are not capable of ) must go before any act of holyness can be discovered . If you say the third , then pray tell me three things . First , How it s discovered to you , or how you know that theirs such a habit of holyness infused into believers infants in that non-age whereupon you build your boldness to baptize them ? for by the fruits only it is that we can know persons Mat. 7.6 . to be good or evil , and you confess pag. 8. that infants have not the exercise and fruit of faith , and commonly in your pulpits that holiness is the fruit of faith , and Iames challenges any one if he can to shew him his faith without his works , Iam. 2.18 . yea you say plainly that the seed of faith sown after discovers it self when the season comes p. 8. and that no judgement of science can be passed , till the acts themselves be seen , and examined for a posteriore only ( mark that word only ) the discovery of habits is made , these are your own sayings in your Review p. 18. whereby you plainly unsay all that here you say of believers infants faith , and holiness , for if it be so that the discovery of these habits is only a posteriore , i. e. by the fruits , exercises , and acts , and that Infants have not these , then how I trow have you the discovery of it at all , before the season , that these habits are in them ? yet such is your shameless inconsiderateness , and custome of contradicting your selves , that you pretend to a discovery of it so farr as to attempt here the discovery of it to the world : will you allwaies feed the world thus with your own groundless fancies , and fashion it in religion according to your own careless conception ? will you alwaies affirm things so to be , and venture to make them known , and yet confess they cannot be known too ? O curas hominum o quantum est in rebus mane ! Secondly , pray tell me how this holiness , which you assert to be in believers infants whereby you would make it appear that they have the spirit , doth appear any more to be in them then the spirit it self ; are they not both a like dark to us , and unapparent ? yet you profess to prove the one of these by the other thus , they have holyness therefore the spirit , and if to one querying , how you know they have holiness ? you should say thus they have the spirit , therefore holyness , 't were a proof no more impregnant then the other , for you could do more then leave the people , whose blind guides you are , as much in the dark as before , by this , and by that I am sure you do no less : when men fall to proving ( as you have done hitherto all along in your Disputation ) things undiscernable by things as undiscernable as the other , and things that appear not at all , by things that appear no more at all then those they would make to appear by them , Nescio an anticyram ratio illis destinet omnem . Thirdly , I pray tell me how this holiness appears to be in believers infants whom thereupon you would have to be baptized , more then in unbelievers infants whom ( though in your practise you promiscuously admit them with the other yet ) in your proofs you except from your baptism ? is there any more Specimen or shew of holiness in them then in these ? the best spectacles that ever I beheld with , could never behold it ; Is there any more capableness of such an Infusion of holiness , or of having such an habit infused ? Is there any experience of it when they come to years that the infants of believers had this holiness in their infancy and unbelievers infants had not ? if so , how is it that when they are grown , the children of unbelievers have holiness very often , when as oft the other prove wicked , and have not ? ( have a care of your shinnes ( good now ) by all means ) do the children of believers fall from it ? is there any promise of God , whereby he stands ingaged to infuse holiness into these infants in infancy , when he will not infuse it into the other ? and if so , how it is it that we must necessarily hold ( for so you say your own selves in your Review p. 18. ) that God is not bound ( for if he hath promised it as you say he hath Acts 2. then he is bound ) to work it in all the children of Christian parents , nor barred from working it in any of the children of infidels ? Is there any promptness to acts of holiness , whence only you can clearly argue ad positionem habitus , in that infancy in which you sprinkle them , in believers infants than in the other ? all your skill in Physiogmony can never find it : or can you argue ad negationem habitus , to no holiness in an infidels infant more then in anothers ? your very selves acknowledge you cannot : if not , why more I wonder ad negationem spiritus ? why more ad negationem baptismi ? why more ad negationem nugationis istius vestrae , viz. your trivial new way , or rather no way of baptism ? to which if it were baptism indeed , you must admit , if not all , then not at all in time of infancy , or else your absurdities are unsuffrable , Sirs suffer me to come cross to you , and hit you home with your own cross interrogatory p. 18. are those infants of infidels , between whom , and those of believers , you objectors will admit no comparison , inclinable to acts of holiness ? or not ? if the former , it presupposes then that infidels infants have the habit also as much as the other , and so the working in them , and those born of believing parents may be one , and so their holiness , and faith , and spiritualness , and baptism be one too , which all your Disputation doth deny ; if the latter , I freely confess these are not inclinable , nor yet the other neither . These premised the Answer is in your own very words pag. 18. That unless it could be certainly presumed what children have the habit , i. e. of faith , holiness , what have not , the working of the spirit is not known to us , he is neither bound nor barr'd there can be no conclusion made , and therefore Quis nisi mentis inops &c. how justly may they be concluded by themselves , as well as by others , to have hand plus cerebri quam cimax sanguinis , and no more understanding then those whose right eye is utterly darkned , who premising these sentences themselves , do for all that make this conclusion , viz. that these infants have faith , Holiness , the Spirit , and thereby right to baptism above all others . Or secondly Sirs do ye mean by it some Negative holiness , consisting in their being without sin , and having yet no wickedness , and prophanness , the thing , which ( and more properly by farr ) you stile innocency in the next words ? though yet o curious criss-cross you will not hold them guiltless neither : if so , for my part I give you in my assent to it , that infants are innocent , but I cannot help it if it do you no good in your cause , for first are infants of believers any more innocent in time of infancie then the rest ? how so ? not by birth , for they are all alike born in sin , secundum ●e , not in life , for it cannot appear that the one have more blurr'd themselves , or barr'd themselves by any actual sin from baptism ( if innocency be that which intitles to it ) then the other But secondly to say the truth Sirs so far is baptism from being intailed to innocents , and holy ones only , as their only right , that it belongs rather only unto sinners , for though Christ for examples sake , and for other ends , submitted to it , who yet had no sin of his own , but he had ours by imputation , yet the most proper use of it to all else that submit is to signifie the remission of their sins Mat. 3.6 . Luk. 3.3 Act. 2.38 . Act. 22.16 . If believers infants therefore be so righteous , holy , i. e. innocent , &c. as you make them , and I dare not deny but that they are , nor dare I saie otherwise for the world of other infants in infancie , having more charity than your selves , even so much as to presume unumquemque bonum nisi constet de malo , they are so little inrighted to baptism thereupon , that till they sin they are much rather exempted from it : for if baptism be a sign to signifie to him who submits to it , the remission of his sinnes in plurali , ( as Acts 2.38 . and in all other places it seems to be ) then it s utterly usless to such ( and therefore to infants ) as , being yet under no Commission of sinnes , need yet no sign of Remission of them . Secondly . Matrimonial holiness I call that , which arises from the conjugation of two viz , one man and one woman only into one flesh , according to Gods holy ordinance and institution ; the subject of which holiness is not onely marriage it self , and the marriage bed , which is said to be honourable among all men , and undefiled , or which is all one , to be holy , Heb. 13.4 . but also the married persons of what rank , quality , religion soever , when once come into that conjugall relation , whether both or either or neither of them be believers ; and the seed or infants that are born of them in that condition , which are called by God himself , Mal. 2.15 . a seed of his own seeking , a godly seed , or seed of God , which he owns as truly , lawfully , honestly , holily begotten , according to his own holy appointment , and not basely , beastly , trecherously , adulterously , nor corruptly , as those are which are not begotten in the bed . Opposite to this holiness , these holy ones ( I mean the married couples , and their holy seed ) are all the lusts of concupisence , objected on strange flesh ; uncleanness , 1 Thess. 4.7 . adultery , fornication , and unclean agents , i. e. adulterers ; and the unclean issues of the adulterous bed , viz , the adulterous brood , or the seed of the adulterer and the whore Isa. 57.3 . This kind of holiness I dare say you do not mean , yea the most of you will hardly be perswaded that there 's any such kind of holiness at all , or if you be it makes nothing for your purpose , for what if infants of believing parents be ( as infants of unbelieving parents also are , when begotten in lawfull wedlock ) holy in such a sense , doth this tend at all to prove them to have the holy spirit , which is the thing in hand ? yet this even this , and no other is all the holiness meant by Paul 1 Cor. 7.14 . where he saith , else were your children unclean , but now are they holy , that very place which your selves so often send us to , for proof thereof , when we deny your Antecedent in this consequence , viz. Infants of believers are holy , therefore to be baptized : This that I say as 't is not deni'd ( to my knowledge ) by some that are for infants baptism , so is it most undeniable to any that will but plainly and impartially consider the direct drift of the Apostle in the verse , which is not any such matter as to shew that there 's such a sanctity in the unbelieving husband , or wife of believing yoke-fellows ( for these are there said to be holy as well as the children , with the same holiness ) and in their children also , as inrolles them all , viz. the unbelieving parties , and the children , as well as the believing parties in the Covenant of grace , or in any such outward Church covenant , as inrights them to baptism , membership and fellowship in the Congregation , but to shew such a sanctity or holiness , as clears both their conjunctions , and conceptions to be pure and guiltless , such as frees their bed from the account of baseness , and their brood from the account of bastardy , both which in the sight of God and men would else be unholy , i. e. utterly unlawful and unclean : his scope is ( I say ) to convince them of the lawfulness of that state , i. e. of a believer and unbelievers being man and wife together , by the lawfulness of the seed that proceeds from them , and by both these not onely of the liberty and legality , but the duty also of their continuance together in that civil marriage relation , notwithstanding their different religion , as well as if they were in Religion one and the same : The Corinthians had written to him ( it seems verse 1 ) about many cases ; wherein they were scrupled , and among the rest about this , viz. whether a husband or wife comming into the faith , and leaving their yoke-fellows still in unbelief ; might lawfully own and cleave to them still , as their true and lawful yoke-fellows , as before they did , when they were both in unbelief , or as they may one to another that are both in the faith , or whether they must not rather leave them now , and disown them as to that old capacity , because of this spiritual difference that now was between them , in answer to which he tells them , that by all means if the unbelieving parties will be pleased still to abide with them , as before , the believing parties must not depart , nor put away ; and to satisfie them further in so doing , he renders them this good reason , viz. for the unbelieving wife is sanctified in , or to the husband , and the unbelieving husband to the wife , which is as much as if he had said , you are as true man and wife in the account of God as before , your marriage is an honourable , your bed as undefiled as before , your unbelieving husband or wife sanctified as a lawful companion to you as well as before , your living and lying together is as holy , and unblameable in the eyes of God as before , and to put this more out of doubt yet , least any should remain unresolved , he minds them further by another argument ( ab absurdo ) the absurdity which they it seems were too inconsiderate of , that would follow upon it , if this were not so , for else ( saith he ) your children are unclean ; else ( that is ) if you deny your selves in this case of different Religion to be lawful man and wife together , you heed not ( for wise men do not at all times see the ill consequences of things at present , as Mr. Tombes well observes , and as stark m●d as Mr. Baxter saies page 87. of his Baby-book the Corinthians were , if they did not mind this ) you heed not what mad work you will make by so doing , hereby you will deny your children to be a lawfull issue ; you will bring the blame of baseness upon your begettings , and the blot of bastardy upon your off-spring ; for all men know ( though at all times it may not come into their minds , nor then possibly when ther 's most need it should ) that by the same reason that the parents are not holy in their coming together , nor sanctified one to another by the ordinance of God , viz. true and lawful matrimony , the babes begotten and born of them , cannot be that godly seed , Mal. 2.15 : but must be base born and unclean , and this the Apostle here hints unto them in this clause , else were you children unclean , thereby evincing or evidencing to them , who doubted of it , the warrantableness of their abode in their marriage contract : but now saith he , i. e. though you are one in the faith , and the other in unbelief , yet your children are holy ; and honestly born for all that ( as else they could not ) and you consequently holy pure , and honest in your communion . And here I cannot but note by the way how egregiously Mr. Baxter pedles in a long prate to Mr , Tombes page 86 , 87. about an impossibility of the Corinthians knowing their seed to be legitimate , and yet doubting their marriage to be unlawful , whereas they might in general know it , and yet in special at this time not be so serious in considering it ; and how impossible it was for Paul rationally to argue from the effect to the cause , so as to go about to convince them of the lawfulness of their marriage , by a consideration of the lawfulness of their seed , which flowes from lawful marriage , and is a consequent , of which that is the cause : whereas in cognitione ( praesertim confusà ) effectus sunt priores causis : in order to such knowledge as the Apostle seeks here to beget them to , which was but as it were a certain remembrance of what they might have easily gathered of themselves , had they not been so forgetfull as to need a memorandum , 't is not irrational to clear the cause by the effect , as to say there 's smoak , therefore there 's fire , yet the fire is the cause of the smoak , these infants are no bastards , but legitimate , therfore their parents were married is the very same . This therefore I say again is all the holiness here intended . As for that federall holiness you fiddle men in the ear with as the only holiness here aim'd at , I confess I once rawly uttered it in discourse my self , when being a sprinkler of infants ( as you are ) and as stiff a stickler for that practise as the blindest ●mong you , I was made choise of to defend it against the Baptists , who not by force of Armes ( as the Priest-hood once did ) but by force of Arguments at last overcame me to-their way , but as I was then pretty well faulted for fastening such false constructions as of a faederal holiness on that place , so upon a more serious search into its sense , I have found it my self so faulty , that if I had said a fiddlestick holiness , it had been but somewhat more ridiculous , so far is Paul from dilating on any such kind of holiness in that Scripture , where to convince them of a meer civil sanctity , and to shew that different Religion destroies not any civil relation is verily the very utmost of his errand . To inculcate this yet a little more upon you , let me press you to lay to heart these few considerations . First that , as here in this fourteenth verse he shews that the civill relation , or inst●●utive holiness of the state between man and wife is not nullified by a difference about the faith , so but that they may abide together therein , though one be a believer , and the other an infidel , without any sin or guilt contracted to the believer by such continuance in their contract , so in the following verses he shews that the civil relation , or civil sanctity of the State between Master and Servant is not nullified thereby , so but that they may lawfully live together in that state , though the Servant should be a believer , and the Master an infidel ; or the Master a believer and the Servant an Infidel ve . 21. art thou called being a Servant , i. e. to an unbelieving master , care not for it , i. e. distract not thy self about it , scruple it not solicitously , as if it were an unholy , unclean , unlawfull , or sinfull state for thee to remain in , for v. 22. he that is called in the Lord , i. e. to the faith being a Servant , i. e. in bondage to a Master not yet called , is Christs free man , i. e. acceptable to Christ , even in that state and relation to such a Master as before ; and in the favour of Christ , as also he that is called being free , or a Master himself is Christs servant , i. e. one whom he owns for his , accepts and justifies , though happily he may be by covenant in relation still to unbelieving servants , he is holy , honorable , and undefiled in his state as a Master , and that by virtue of the Ordinance of Christ , who hath sanctified that condition and relation of Master , and Servant to each other , as holy for them to abide in together , though in Morall respects the person of one of them may be holy , and the other wicked . The very like to which Pauls hints in his exhortation to servants , even of unbelieving masters , 1 Tim. 6.1 . where he bids believing servants that are under the yoke , though to unbeliving Masters ( for in that he saies & they that have believing Masters in v. 2 ▪ it argues that he means such as have non-believing Masters in the first ) That they should count them worthy of all honor because they are their masters still , by the ordinance of God that hath set and sanctified them in their place and station as honorable and holy , though in their persons and practise they may be contemptible , vile , and ungodly ; the like he saies to Christians concerning civil Magistrates , though infidels , Rom. 13. that being ordained of God and sanctified , or set apart as his Ministers for civil good , they are to have a reverend , honorable , and even holy estimation of them in their hearts , and to abide in their subjection to them in matters civilly righteous , even for conscience sake . The like he saies to children that are in the faith ( I mean not infants , for the Scripture was not penn'd to such ) concerning their parents , whom , as they are their parents , they are to honor as those , who are by right of Divine institution under a stamp of holiness , and civil sanction towards them as Superiors to be respected in that Relation , whether they be believing parents yea or no : for believing children such as are written to in Pauls Epistles Ephes. 6.1 . 2 Col. 3.20 . may and oft have ungodly parents , as well as believing parents ungodly children , or believing husbands and wives ungodly yoak fellowes , yet alwaies to be owned in the Relations , as husbands , wives , parents , children still ; thus we see that persons may be vile , and so far to be contemned Psal. 15.4 . yet holy , pure and honorable in their capacities , and so far to be so accounted on , they may be unsanctified in their hearts , and lives , and yet be invested with such a civil sanctity by a dint of Divine imposition , and institution as may denominate them severally sanctified in their stations , and naturall or civill places of Relation , thus Magistracy and Subjection , Mastership , and Servitude , Mariage , and Propagation of mankind in that way being all holy Ordinances of God , all sanctified by his word and stamp upon them as honorable , and undefiled States and waies , to be and abide in , persons may be unworthy , unclean , unsanctified in their manners , and yet be holy , honorable , sanctified , true legitimate Magistrates , sanctified subjects , sanctified Masters , sanctified servants , sanctified wives , sanctified parents , sanctified children , so as to be according to their several capacities reverenced , submitted to , served , protected , provided for , used , own'd , lawful to be continued with each by other ( fide & infidelitate non obstante ) without respect to religion , yea though the Relata , Pura Masters , and husbands , &c. be unbelievers , and the Corr●lata , viz. servants , wives , be believers in the height . This to resolve the Corinthians in , who might possibly , and very easily be gravell'd herein , specially considering how that under the law , where the dispensations indeed were different from the Gospels , they were commanded to put away their wives , is the down-right , and onely business , and design of the Apostle in the fourteenth and following verses , where besides his direction in particular , in this difference of faith and unbelief , when it falls out between man and wife , Master and servant , which two he instanceth in only in this chapter , he gives a general direction to all sorts of persons in every condition , quality , capacity , rank , or relation , to abide therein , if they please , as sanctified and holy , i. e. by civil sanction to abide in , in these words verse 17. viz. But as God hath distributed to every man , as the Lord hath called every one so let him walk , and so ordain I in all Churches , and also in these v. 20. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called . The Sanctification therefore or holiness here talkt on is only civil sanction , as to men , wives , and their children , a holiness only Matrimonial , and not a faederal or Covenant holiness ( as you dream ) unless instead of the holiness of Gods Covenant , you mean the faederall holiness , or holiness of the mariage Covenant , or any civil covenant , or tie between superiours in relation , and their subjects , which all indeed , when once solemnly contracted , and entred are also Gods ordinance , Gods Covenant , which he owns , and will most severely punish the pollution of , therefore as the Harlot that deals treacherously with her husband is said Prov. 2.17 . to forget the Covenant of her God , i. e. the marriage contract ; and the Covenant where by the man and wife are one is said to be of Gods making Mal. 3.14.15 . so God threatning Iudah for her whoredomes most terribly , Ezek. 16.38 . saies he will judge her , as women that break wedlock and shed bloud are judged ; so likewise did he plague Zedekiah when in the capacity of a Prince , he covenanted to give liberty to his Servants , but did not Ier. 34.18 . so when in the capacity of a Servant to Nabuchadnezzar that set him up , he covenanted and sware allegiance to him , but sleighted his covenant and brake it , which God calls his own oath and covenant , the breach of which he would recompence on his head , Ezechiel chap. 17. verse 16. 17 , 18 , 19. Secondly , let it be considered that the holiness and sanctification here meant , and mentioned what ere it is , is said to be in the unbelieving parent , whether husband or wife , as well as in the children , and therefore it cannot be your faederall or outward Church-covenant holiness , i. e. such a holines ; as intitles to baptism , and intailes Church-membership , Church priviledges , and Ordinances , to the subjects to whom it is predicated , sith the unbelieving husband and wife are denominated by it too , for as of the children it is said they are holy , so of the non-believing yoke-fellows it is said they are sanctified , between which there is no more difference then between 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which seem to me but a Hendiadis , or double expression of the same thing , and not more unlike then two 6 pences , and a shilling ; and will not this absurdity ensue , which I dare say you will evade if you can , if the holiness be such as you say , viz. that the unbelieving husbands and wives must be baptized and inchurched also upon their yoke-fellowes faith , being sanctified thereby as well as the In●ants ? therefore is it not rather think you a Civil and Matrimonial then an Ecclesiastical , & faederall sanctity ? Your usual evasion is this . Babist . The Parents are sanctified by the faith one of the other , not so as to be in covenant themselves by their sanctification , nor yet so as to be baptized thereupon , but they are sanctified as a holy root , so as to bring forth a holy issue , that hath , by vertue of its holiness , a right to the Church Covenant and Baptism . Baptist. Then it seems the unbeliever is with you a holy root as well as the other , and gives holiness to the child , and makes it holy as well as the other parent , yea so holy , that by that concurrence the child is in covenant and to be baptized . First , do you not say somtimes that the child hath its holiness from the believing party onely , as if there were no influence passing from the unbeliever towards its holiness ? why then do you say sometimes again , that from a holiness which is in both they are co-contributers of holiness to the Infant ? which of the two is most undoubtedly true , for the holiness what ever t is is such ( and such it could not be if it were any but Matrimonial ) as is in , and equally flowes from the unbelieving parent , as much as the believing to the infant . Secondly , if the Root be holy are not the branches so ; and if the branches be holy is not the root at least as , if not more so , in the same sence , with the holiness of the same kind , which it conveyeth to the branches ? and if so , then must not this unbelieving parent being a Root , have the same kind of holiness the child hath ? is he not as holy as the child is , and so as capable of being baptized , and in covenant thereby ? sith you all agree that Nil dat quod in se non ha●●● , and Quodcunque efficit tale ( id est ) propriè , est magis tale , whatever is a proper efficient to make another so , or so , must be more so it self , so that if the unbelivnig parent be as holy , with your very covenant holiness it self , as his child , must he not as well by vertue thereof be admitted to the same priviledges ? having though no more faith then his child , yet somewhat else , viz. That holiness that with you intitles to baptism , yea it is more eminently in him than the other : either therefore deny those old received Axiomes , and that I think you need not do , for they are truths , or else deny that which is so commonly asserted by you , viz. that the unbelieving parents are sanctified , so as to be holy Roots to their children by the faith of their believing yoke-fellows , as well as the believing yoke-fellows are by their own , and this you will be very loath to do , for you will hardly coin such a handsome shift as that is in hast again , if you let it go , or else deny that the unbelieving husband and wife is sanctified or holy at all , but that you cannot do for the text saith they are hallowed as well , and in the same sense as their children and believing companions are , in being married to them , what sense soever that is , or else grant us they are holy with the holiness we stand for , as that onely which is meant in this place , viz. Legitimacy , freedome from the least tincture of uncleanness , and baseness in their cohabitations , generations , and issue , and this I believe you must do when all is done ; but then you lose such a supporter of your practise , that let go one more , viz. Act. 2.38.39 . which must be handled also hereafter ; and Iachin and Boaz , the two prime pillars that stand by the entry into your Temple , i. e. Infants sprinkling , which is your entring ordinance , will be removed , a matter of no small tendency to its ruin , or else le ts see in you rejoinder , for I put these things upon you by way of quaere , expecting to see ( if by silence you give not the cause ) how well you will distinguish your selves out of the briars , which your opinion upon the place brings you into , and how well you will wind your selves out of those many absurdities which you are led aside into from the way of truth , by the extravagancies and cunning concavities of your crooked logick lane . Thirdly , let it be considered that the holiness here predicated of the unbelieving parent and the children , is not such as is the result of the faith , and faederal holiness of the believing parent , ( as is so frequently asserted among you ) but of the marriage Covenant , which being holy by institution , and honourable among all , and undefiled , gives the denomination of civil sanctity to the unbelieving couple and their seed , as to a couple of believers , and their seed , as also the denomination of honourable in an unbelieving magistrate and master arises , not from any praise worthy qualification in their persons , much less in the persons of the Correllatives , as you say the holinesse of the unbeliever doth from the faith of the believer , but from Divine ordination which constitutes them as holy in their places , this will be evident , First , if you consider the manner of speech here used by the Apostle , who saies , not the unbeliever is sanctified in the believing wife , and believing husband but in the wife , and in the husband , i. e. in her being his wife , and his being her husband , and howbeit its true , which is commonly return'd to this , viz. that 't is the believing wife of the unbelieving husband , and the believing husband of the unbelieving wife , when the marriage is between believers and unbelievers , yet the believing party is not here preferred before the unbelieving parent , as to the conferring of this holinesse upon the issue , but they are said to be both , and that by your selves , who confesse they jointly make one holy root , equall in this influence , and are sanctified , not one by the faith of the other , as you suppose the unbeliever to be by the faith of the believer , but both by the ordinance of God , viz. their marriage each of other , so that they both alike do sanctifie the issue . Secondly , if you consider the true genuine proper direct tendency and weight of this Relative particle [ else ] which if you allow it a right reference , relates not to the faith or believing of either , but to their being true man and wife , to the lawful wedlock of them both ; for that which is the ground of your error about this place is the forcing of this particle [ else ] the wrong way , for Else , i. e. ( say you ) if one of the parents be not a believer , then the children are unclean , wheras the sense of it runs thus , vix . else i. e. if you be not holy in your copulations , if you be not sanctified one in , to , and by the other as lawful man and wife , by your union formerly contracted , notwithstanding your now disunion in Religion , then your children are unclean , and this is truth , for so the children are in this civil sense , if begotten , and born out of matrimony , whether the parents be believers or no , bu● the other is not truth , for whether both or but one or none of the parents believe , the infants for that cause alone , and without respect to matrimony , are in no sense ere the more holy or unclean . Thirdly , and this will yet appear more plainly , if you consider that faith alone in either one , or both the parents begetting out of wedlock cannot sanctifie the seed so begotten with this civil holiness here meant , no nor with that faederall holiness you plead for , nor could it do so even then , when that holinesse or birth priviledge you talk of was in force ( as now it is not ) viz. in the daies of the law ; for if two believers came together then , out of marriage their seed were not onely base born f and so unclean , in this our sense , but also to the tenth generation uncapable to be admitted into the congregation , and so consequently unclean even in your own , Deut. 32.2 . whereupon ( how Pharez and Zarah were dealt with it matters not , sith they were born before the law was given ) Ieptha was exempted from any inheritance with his brethren , because he was the son of a strange woman , Iudg. 11.2 . and Davids unclean issue by Bathsheba , that in the wisdome of God was taken away by death on the seventh day , might not surely , without breach of the law , have been accounted holy , and of the congregation , if he had lived beyond the eighth , whereupon your selves also are much fumbled about the holinesse of bastards , and the baptism of base-begotten babies , so that you scarcely know how to behave your selves about it , though the parents sinning be believers , at least en-churched in your Churches , yea it s generally known ( saith Mr Cotton g ) that our best Divines do not allow the baptism of bastards and though he is pleased to say they allow it not sine sponsoribus , without Sureties , yet I wonder , sith Deut. 32.2 . Gods denial of such of old is made the ground of their denial of such now , to enter into the Congregation as unholy , that our Divines dare take on them to admit cum sponsoribus , and so to go besides their own Rule , viz. the order of things under the law , wherein God gave no such allowance , but to let that tolleration pass , which they take to themselves , you may learn thus much of your selves if you will , that though wedlock without faith make a holy seed in our sense , yet faith without wedlock in the parents can make a holy seed neither in our sense , nor in your own , nor any at all , for the infants of the married are holy ; but believers bastards are both civilly , and federally unclean ; inso much that your selves see cause to refuse as federally holy , the spurious seed euen of those , whose lawfull issue you unlawfully sprinkle . Fourthly , if you more seriously consider , that the holinesse in the Infant here must needs be the fruit and result of that , and that must needs be the cause of the holiness here spoken of in the infant , quo posito ponitur sanctitas , sublato tollitur , which being in the parents , a holinesse must necessarily be thereupon , which not being in the parents , a holinesse cannot be in the seed : for positâ causà ponitur effectus sublata tollitur : abstract the cause and the effect cannot be : suppose the cause and the effect cannot but be : now that which if it be not in the parents the holiness is not , but being in them the holinesse is consequently in the infants , 't is not the faith , but the conjugal or marriage Relation of the parents , for as for the first of these , viz. faith , it may be in one , yea in both of the parents , and yet no federal holinesse at all be in the infants , witness Ishmael the seed of Abraham the father of the faithful , and his Sons by Keturah also , born of him after Covenant made with him , and his seed in Isaac and Iacob , and yet neither of them in that Covenant , witnesse the base born children of true believers among the Jews , suppose David and Ba●●sheba , which for all the parents faith could not by the law be admitted in th● Congregation , nor have that birth-priviledge to be reputed holy , which from the parents faith you universally intail to the infants : moreover this birth-priviledge and Covenant-holiness by generation , which did inright to Church ordinances , which once was , but now is a non-entity , and out of date , might be then , when it was in being , in children , in whose parents faith was not found at all , for most of the Iews were unbeiievers , yet all their legitimate children were holy federally , therefore faith in the parent cannot be the cause of such a thing : yea if you will believe Mr , Blake himself , the strictest pleader for a birth-priviledge of federal holiness in Infants that ever I met with , and that from this very place , he condescends so far as to contribute one contradiction to himself toward the helping of the truth in this case , viz. That faith in the par●nt is not the cause of this holinesse , whilst making the holinesse in this text to be a birth priviledge , or Church-Covenant holinesse , and to be the fruit and result of the faith of the believing parents , and consequently their faith to be the sole and proper cause of the same , he confesses flatly elsewhere page 4. that a loose life in the parent and mis-belief , which is as bad , in some cases worse , then unbelief , ( for which is worse to believe false things , or not to believe true ? ) yea Apostacy from the faith , ( which all if they be not inconsistent with faith I know not what is ) do not divest , nor debar the issue from having that holiness which ( himself saies ) is meant in this text . Babist . Perhaps he means not by faith strictly the parents true believing , but in generall his being in the covenant , and faederally holy himself , and so a cause of this federal holiness in the issue . Baptist. First , Paul means true believing here , in 1 Cor. 7.14 . whether Mr Blake do or no. Secondly , what will he get as to the point in hand by his Synonamizing faith and faederall holiness , for still neither the one nor the other is made here the cause of the holiness of the seed , for the holiness here spoken of may be where neither of them is , and may not be in the seed , even where they are both in the parent , as for example in Ezras time , Ezra 10 , 3. we find abundance of the Jews , both Priests , and people , that were in the faith , or at least in faederall holiness , yet the children were put away as unholy , as well faederally as otherwise , because their marriage was unlawfull , and that bed adulterous wherein they lay with strange wives , Ezra 10.3 . and that both parents possibly may be faithful , and faederally holy , and yet their seed be in all senses utterly unclean is evident , for the child of two believing Jews begotten besides the marriage bed , was both a Bastard , and also barr'd from the Congregation , Deut. 32.2 . again this faederal holiness as well as faith may be in neither parent , and yet the issue not be unclean , but holy still , and so are all ( Matrimonially , and civilly at least ) that among Pagans are the issue of the marriage bed ; and with the holiness of the Covenant of Grace too , when they come to years , and believe themselves , as not a few children of unbelievers do , and sometimes the seed of Turks and Tartars , this therefore i. e. the faith , or faederal sanctity of the one parent , nor of both cannot be the cause of this sanctity , is here denominated of the seed , for holiness in the infants is not alwaies , when this is , and sometimes it is in the infant , when this is not in the parent , which being of each without other , cannot be between a true cause , and its effect ; but as for the second viz. the marriage sanctity in the parents , it is that which being in the parents , holiness is naturally and necessarily in the seed that is born of them , whether they be both or either , or either in faith or unbelief , but being not in the parents , there can be no holiness , no birth holiness in their infants , nor Matrimonial , nor Congregationall neither : therefore this is that which is the cause of the holiness of the issue in this Scripture , the result of which , and not of faith in the parents , is this non-uncleanness in their posterity , and so I have done with this kind of holiness , and with this Scripture which speaks of this Matrimonial holiness and no other . Thirdly , Ceremonial holiness , I call that same holiness which properly , peculiarly , and pro tempore only pertained to the whole nation , and congregation of Israel , denominating them all holy every one of them , and distinguishing them from all other people , and nations ; which during the time of the Iews pedagogy , according to Gods own imposition were then accounted sinners , common , and unclean by a certain ●●s-rationis , an extrinsecall , meerly notional , and nominal rather then either real , moral or substantiall sort of sin , and uncleanness to which the others holiness was directly opposite , and answerable . The subjects of which Accountative holiness were not only the people of the Jews themselves , which were a holy people Deut. 7. ver . 8. Exod. 22.31 . but also and more specially the Priests , and more specially yet , or in a higher degree , but in the same kind of holiness ( for degrees do not vary nature ) the High Priests , which were holiness to the Lord , Exod. 39.30 . also their parents , which were not matrimonially only , nor often morally , yet ( to allow your own phrase here , because they were outwardly in Covenant with God , concerning outward promises and priviledges , on performance of outward ordinances ) ever● faederally a holy parentage a holy root , Rom. 11. also their natural ( if withall matrimonial ) issue , which were not at all in their infancy , and but seldome when at years spiritually , allwaies faederally holy branches , a holy seed , also their land of Canaan , which was the holy Land , their Metropolitan City Ierusalem , which was the holy City , their Temple , which was a holy Temple , the Utensills , vessels , vestments , and other accomplishments , which were all holy , a holy Lavar , a holy Altar , a holy Ark , holy Candlesticks , holy Cherubims , most holy place , &c. and in a manner all things belonging to the Law of Moses , and that first Covenant made with Abraham , and his fleshly seed , whether hollowed or consecrated by God himself , or dedicated to him by men at his appointment , viz. the first born , the first fruits , tithes , offerings , sacrifices , daies , feasts , which were al ! holy , and had relation ( as shadowes and types for a while ) unto things Evangelically , Spiritually , and substantially holy ; that were to be there after : yea with this same kind of holiness some meats were holy ; some flesh Hag. 2.12 , 13. was holy , some birds , and beasts were sanctified as holy , and lawfull to be used , and eaten , when others were prohibited as prophane , common and unclean , not so much as to be touched without sin , without contracting such an outward fleshly kind of guilt , and impurity , as made their souls in that ceremonial sense abominable ; yea with an uncleanness oppositely answerable to this carnall holiness , those fleshly purities , and purifyings , that then were , some actions , as the touch of a dead body ; some issues of men and women , some diseases as the Leprosie , some bodily blemishes as crookedness , dwarfishness , blindness , lameness , yea the very easements , and excrements that passed from them in the camp , without covering , did defile and render them sinners , prophane , unclean , unholy and guilty before the Lord , Levit. 5.2.3.5 — 11.43 . to 46. also Chapters 14.15.22 . also Levit . 20.25.26 — 21.18 . to the 24. Deut. 23.12.13.14 . which defilements did then reach to pollute the flesh only , which the bloud of Bulls and Goats , that could not cleanse the conscience morally , did sanctifie to the purifying of Hebr. chap. 9. ver . 13. neither do these things defile any man now in any such sense at all . This is the holiness , which when you say infants of believers are holy ; I have ground to perswade my self you Ashford Disputants mean not , but rather some inherent morall holiness , when I consider how you talk of infused habits in the hearts of infants in your Disputation and Review ; and yet again I have ground to believe you mean this holiness , which was in the Jewish infants and their implements , if I may imagine your meaning , by what is extant in the writings of your brethren upon the subject , specially if I may measure your meaning by Mr Blakes in his Birth-priviledge , or covenant-holiness of believers and their issue , wherein he laies himself out at large , and yet is too short when all is done in proving from the like under the law , among the people of the Iews and their issue , that even now in the times of the Gospel also , a people that enjoy Gods ordinances , convey to their issue a priviledge to be reputed by birth , not unclean , but holy persons , and thereupon to be baptized ; the absurditie and inconsequence of which doctrine ( and so I hope to make it appear , now I am upon it ) is little less then if he had argued thus , as the Pope doth from that time to this , viz. there was an Hierarchy or holy principallity among the Priests under the law , therefore there must be such another under the Gospel , and as then the high-Priests , Aaron and his Sons who were holiness to the Lord , wore holy garments in their ministration for glory and for beauty , viz. Coats , and robes embroydered with gold and blew , and purple and scarlet , and fine linnen , and curious girdles of needle work , nnd miters , and holy Crowns upon the miters , so his Holiness to the Lord , the High-Priest of Christendome Appollyon , and his sons must thus swagger in their service , and be set out in such a holy manner for glory , and for beauty , with his Pontificalib● , and most holy sumptuous , superstitious attire : this holinesse of the holy Priest-hood that then was , and its holy pertinances , that holy people , and holy seed you stile very fitly , and I agree with you in the term ( for 't was indeed the holiness of that Covenant that then was , while the first tabernacle , and its worldly Sanctuary was yet standing ) a federall holiness , nevertheless though you call it by no name but what I freely allow of , yet I call it by one or two names , which though they be as true and properly due to it as the other , and Epithites given ordinarily by your selves to the holinesse of almost every thing else under that Covenant , yet least it pluck you up by the roots as touching your opinion in this point of infant-holinesse and baptism , I much fear you will hardly allow of them as to the parents and the seed , if you can handsomely evade them by secundum quid , or some such like cleanly distinction : these are first , a ceremoniall holiness , the rise of which denomination , and reason why given , are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quasi ad tempus durans , for a time onely , its non-continuance to the end , or its non-conveyance down-wards from the Church of the Jews , to the times and Churches of the Gospel : Secondly , a typical holinesse , as being but a shew , shadow or figure of some more excellent holinesse to come , for the law and first Covenant had but the shadow of things to come , and not the very image of the things , Heb. 10.1 . I say a typicall , and therefore but a temporall holiness , which stood and was seated onely in divers outward bodily rites , sacrifices , actions , observations , ordinances , offices , officers , places , gestures , vestures , ornaments , meats , drinks , and a certain fleshly birth-right , and title to certain earthly preheminences , dignities , priviledge● , liberties , inheritances , a kingdome : and all this for the time then being onely , and to point out a true , more speciall , ●eall , spiritual and eternal excellency and glory under the Gospell in order to the manifestation of which all the other was but a pageant , for as the Map of that Ierusalem that then was , delineates to our capacities the beauty of that earthly fabrick , yet is far inferious to the City it self therein deciphered , so the old Ierusalem with all her holy things , were but a shadowy representation , and patern of the New Ierusalem , and the true heavenly things themselves , which the other is as far inferiour to in worth and real felicity , as any Mapp of it upon the wall is to the City that is set out , and darkly described by it . Thus did their High-priests in all their holiness , yea and kings too ( King Solomon specially in all his glory ) and their prophets also , in all their materially holy unctions to those severall holy functions , type out that one spiritually anointed one of the father , our Lord Iesus , though a single person , to his tripple office of King , Priest , and Prophet over his Church , so their carnally holy meats , drinks and abstinencies , our spiritual meat and drink , which they are said to eat of in a figure , And our abstinencies from fleshly lusts , and morall pollutions ; so their holy washings the washing of Regeneration , and renewings by the spirit ; their holy sacrifices , blood of sprinkling , which ( as all the rest ) could not make perfect as pertaining to the conscience , but sanctified onely to the purifying of the flesh , i. e. the delivery of them from that outward imputation of impurity , and uncleanness that would else have lain upon them , the blood of Christ purging the conscience from iniquities , and dead works wherewith it s defiled , to serve the living God in true holiness and righteousnesse all the daies of our life : so Circumcision of their fleshly seed , which was outward , and in the flesh , tipified , not Baptism ( as is simply supposed from Col. 2. ) but the Circumcision of the spiritual seed , i. e. believers , new-born babes , begotten to Christ by the word , with the Circumcision made without hands , i. e. sanctification , and cutting of the filthy lusts of the flesh ; so their outwardly royall Priest-hood , the spiritual royal Priest-hood , i. e. the true Saints , who are truly ( as the other ceremonially and tipically ) a kindome of Priests , made Kings and Priests to the Lamb , and shall once reign on the earth , 1 Pet. 2.9 . Rev. 5.10 . So the outward holiness of their nation tipified , not the same kind of outward ho●inesse of any one Nation taken collectively in the lump , as the whole Nation of England , Scotland , &c. and all their seed ( as you ignorantly imagine ) but the inward holinesse of the holy Nation of true believers themselves , whether parents to wicked children , or children of wicked parents , scattered through all Nations under heaven , these Peter writes to , and calls the chosen generation now , i. e. the Regenaration themselves , not the natural generation of these ; also a Royall Priest-hood , an holy Nation , a peculiar people to God in a spiritual sense , as Israel was in a certain carnal and outward sense before , 1 Pet. 1.1 , 2.9 . so their holy land our inheritance incorruptible reserved in heaven the heavenly country , which we look for with Abraham , Isaac and Iacob , with whom we are heirs by faith of the same promise ; their holy City , our holy City , which hath foundations , whose builder and maker is God , Heb. 11. Rev. 12. Heb. 13. their holy Temple , Gods Evangelically holy Temple , where he will dwell , which Temple ye are , saith Paul to the Church , 1 Cor. 3. Their carnal freedome , our spiritual freedom from sin , which who ere commits is but a servant , for all the other : though born of Abraham , Iohn 8. Their passeover , Christ our passeover that was sacrificed for us , 1 Cor. 5. Their Rock , our Rock of refreshment Christ ; their cloud , Christ overshadowing by day , and enlightning by night his people , 1 Cor. 10. Their Manna , Christ , our bread that came down from heaven Iohn 6. their delivery out of Egypt the worlds Redemption by Christ ; and as sundry other things , of which I cannot now speake particularly , so lastly ( to draw yet a little neerer to the point in hand ) their holy seed , issue , infancy tipified , not ( as both corruptly and carnally you conceive ) the fleshly seed of believing , or in-churched Gentiles , for these are in no wise the Antitype to the circumcised infancy of Israel , but as I hinted before , the truly and spiritual holy seed it self , i. e. believers themselves ; or if the seed of believers , not their natural seed , but their seed in a spirituall sense , i. e. that are begotten by them , by their words unto the faith ; for believers as men beget men onely , and no more in that way of bodily propagagation , but as believers they may beget believers , by way of spiritual influx , by comunication of the gospel to their consciences , thus Paul was the father of the Corinthians , in Christ Iesus begetting them all by the gospel , 1 Cor. 4 15. thus he travelled with the Galathians till Christ was form'd in them , whom also he bespeaks , as Iohn also doth his converts , 1 Iohn 2.1 . by the name of my little ch●ldr●n , Gal 4.19 . thus far if you will I agree with you , but your cause will be no gainer by this agreement , that as ceremonially holy ones begat ceremonially holy ones under the law , as a tipe in a way of carnall copulation , so spiritually holy ones beget spiritually holy ones , in a Gospel sense , by their spiritual communion and communication : for as Christ himself , who supremely begets , so true Christians as agents , and instruments under him may be said to multiply , and see their seed when in their endeavours to beget others to the faith , the work , will , way and pleasure of the Lord doth succeed and prosper in their hands ; that holy seed therefore that answers under the Gospel to that holy seed , the Jews infants under the law , as the substance of that shadow , that with all the rest is now fled away , is Christ , and his truely , morally and spiritually holy ones onely , for the holy seed of the law , or that seed which was holy in the old Covenants account , were but as the leaves of an oak , which though they flourish and make a shew for a time , yet at last are cast off and fall to the ground , but the holy seed in the Gospel sense , i. e. the Saints and true believers , not their natural seed with them , for they are onely Semen carnis , and that not of Abraham neither , ( as the Iew is who yet hath thereupon onely no part , nor portion in this matter ) but of the Gentiles , these Saints I say are the true Semen fidei , children of the faith , and sp●ritual seed of Abraham , and also the very substance thereof , as Isa. 6.13 . as the Prophet there speaks of the truly Godly , so I say the substance of the Church of the Iews , now it hath cast it leaves , i. e. all its former figurative holinesse , holy Priests , and holy seed , the substance thereof is still in them . For all things under the law and old Testament , even the whole Covenant and Testament it self , as well as every part and parcel of the same , did but serve unto the example and shadow of the New Testament , will and Covenant that stands ratified by the blood of the Testator , ( as neither was the first dedicated without blood ) and the more holy and true heavenly things thereof , yea as well the holy promises that were made to that holy seed , as the holy precepts upon performance of which they were made , and the holy seed it self also to whom the promises were made , and of whom these precepts were required , did exemplifie a better Testament , and those better promises upon which it is established , and the better and more spiritual ordinances , which in order thereunto are to be observed , and that better and far more holy seed that observing these ordinances shall at last inherit , which all were to come in under Christ , and before which all the other were to vanish viz. First , a heavenly Canaan , Country , Kingdom , inheritance , substance , peace , prosperity , plenty , advancement , rest , immunity ; glory answering to all that of Israels which was but earthly . Secondly , the life of faith , and obedience to Christs law , which is more inward and spiritual Mat. 5. answering that law of commandements , conteined in ordinances given by Moses , which was more ad extra and carnal . Thirdly , that holy seed which is not of the law of Moses nor of the flesh of Abraham by generation , but of Christ by regeneration the seed or successors of the faith of Abraham , and so heirs with him by that faith of all Gospel-promises , answering Antipically to the other ; for though the promise of being heirs of the old Canaan , which was but a spot of the world and pickt out as a pattern for the time , was made to Abraham and his seed through the law i. e. the children of Isaac and Iacob , which were counted for his seed under the law viz. the natural branches of his body ( for these onely were the heirs of that old earthly legall and tipical land of promise , in token of which all the males were circumcised in their flesh ) yet the promise that Abraham should be heir of the world ; which is the Gospel pointed at , couched and exhibted tipically in the delivery of the other was not made to Abraham and that seed of his through the law ( quâ tales ) only , unless they were ( as some few were ) by faith his seed in the other sense also , but through the righteousness of faith i. e. to the branches grafted in by personal believing in Christ Rom. 4.13 , 14. where the Apostle saies plainly , that if they which are of the law and circumcision only ( meaning the fleshly seed of Abraham ) as such , unless they also walk in the steps of that faith which Abraham had , be heirs with him of the world , which is the thing promised in the Gospel then faith , which is made the onely term intitling to Gospel-promises is made void , and the promise of just no effect at all : much more may we say if the fleshly se●d of your Gentile believers , most of which are no believers neither , be heirs of this Gospel-promise , and Gospel-inheritance ( as so born ) so that they may be signed for heirs by the Gospel-ordinance of baptism , upon that meer and simple account of their parents being believers , without respect to faith in their own persons , then the Gospell requires faith to be acted by us in order to salvation altogether in vain , and to no purpose ; yea if go●pel-promises and priviledges be intailed to me upon my fathers being a believer , I need no faith of mine own , as to the making of me an heir thereof , and if it were so as you commonly say , but most horrible in considerately from Acts 2.39 . that the promise of the Gospel is not onely to the believers but also to their bodily issue , as barely descending from them , qua sic simpliciter , and without their own personal faith , which in infancy appears no more to be in them then infants of unbelievers , and which if it appears ( as oft it doth in unbelievers children when they come to years and not in the other ) declares them to be heirs apparent thereof , when the other are not ) then I say plainly that all believers children must unavoidably be saved , if God be true in his promise , though when they come to years they never believe , and live never so prophanely , the terms being still fulfilled upon which you say the promise is made to them , which is this being born of believing parents , for the prophanness of their lives , and non-believing themselves , Non est causae quo minus , &c. is no cause whereupon they are a whit less the seed of believers after the flesh , and if so ( and also that that only gives a title to the promise ) then he that made that promise on those terms , viz. being the fleshly seed of believers , the terms of being so born being fulfilled by all the natural seed of believers , be they never so ungodly in their own persons , must be faithful to fulfil his own part , and ( their ungodliness non obstante ) make it good to them concerning their salvation , which drives you oft to such a Dilemma in discourses , that for your ears almost you dare not answer distinctly to us , when we ask you what that Gospell promise is , which is made ( as you say ) to believers infants , and upon what terms it is made to them , beyond the infants of unbelievers ? Babist . We do not say that being born of believing parents only , intitles persons to the Gospell promises , but they are heirs thereof , and of all the glory , and priviledges , and salvation held forth therein as they shall hereafter believe themselves also , and live godly , when they come to years , and not otherwise . Baptist. Yea say you so ? then pray how doth the promise of the Gospel appear to belong one jot more to believers children , then to unbelievers ? for the believers child ( it seems by you now ) cannot by promise be saved upon his parents faith , unless he believe also himself , and then he may , and what is this more then I can say to the full of all unbelievers children , yea and as well of all unbelievers in the world ? for even the children of Turks and Pagans , and all the children of all the men upon the face of the Earth shall be saved , upon these terms , viz. believing and obeying the Gospel themselves , when they come to years , whether their parents ever obeyed it , yea or no ; where then is the preheminence of your believers seed above unbelievers , if you go this way to work ? either therefore grant the one , or else the other , viz. either that believers children are heirs of salvation upon their fathers faith onely without their own , or if you say , not so but by their own faith t is that they must be saved , then that the Gospel promise belongs not to believers children beyond other mens , and that one mans seed hath no such birth-priviledge and preheminence as you dote of about anothers , for unbelievers children may as well as they by promise be saved upon their own faith , when they come to age without their Fathers . Babist . We can easily answer you to all this by distinguishing upon the promise , thus , The promise of the Gospel is either of salvation , life remission of sins , the holy spirit , as the earnest , and the inheritace it self to come , or else of external priviledges only , and participations of Ordinances , as Baptism , Churchmembership &c. the promise of the eternal inheritance , life , and salvation we grant is not made , much less made good to any upon terms of the parents faith , but upon our own personal belief , and obedience , but the promise of outward priviledges , and of right to participation of ordinances , as to be baptized , and inchurcht , this belongs to children upon their fathers faith , so that believers children are children of the promise in this sense , when others are not , and in this last sense it is that Peter saies the promise is to you , and to your Children &c. i. e. you and yours have the priviledge of right to baptism . Baptist. Then it seems you quit the former sense , I pray therefore let us here no more of that till next time however , but let me tell you one thing by the way concerning that first sense , before I say ought to your second ; viz , that if the promise of salvation belong to persons upon their own personal belief and obedience ( as undoubtedly it doth , according to the whole tenor of the Scripture as to men at years ) and such onely , then as very a figment of ours as you feign it to be , t will put you to your shifts , to find out what way dying infants are saved in , unless you own another way then that which the Scripture tenders it to men in , for the justification and salvation of infants , viz. the presentment of the righteousness of Christ for them without belief in them , or any other kind of obedience ; And sith in such sense as this only you own the Gospel promise to be made by Peter Act. 2. to believers infants , viz. that they shall by right be admitted to outward priviledges , as baptism and membership , when others shall not , I beseech you consider what a poor piece of promise is made by him , and what a miserable comforter the Apostle is made by you , in making as if this were all his meaning , and all that he intends by that precious word of promise ; I suppose his drift was to support the Jewes , now smitten down under sense of sin , and the guilt of Christs blood which then lay upon them , by propounding to them some ground of consolation , but here is cold comfort in what he saith , if that be all , which you saie is , the sense he speaks in , he had spoke little to their purpose , and as good he had said never a whit , as never the better ; for this promise ( as you take it ) hath more matter of mourning in it then otherwise to say you shall be brought nearer to the Church , but never the nearer to salvation thereby , further then you do that which others doing , that are further off the Church , shall be saved so doing as well as you : Sirs you had as good cut off the entail of that piece of promise , which you intitle believers infants to , us cut of the best part of the promise from them , which yet you seem to entail as from their parents to them , for this is not worth a rush without the other , for abstract this great priviledge you seem to invest them with , from that which you divest them of by this distinction , and its worth little or nothing , if not plainly worse than nothing , without the other : what better to be under a promise of being priviledged with , and what priviledge at all to be admitted to this , and yet to be no more , nor upon any other terms under the promise of the inheritance it self , then others , such as were yet never at all signed to it : Is it not rather a burden and a bondage ? for outward ordinances verily are part of the preceptory part of the Gospel , and the precept in point of ordinances , as well as in point of manners , is part of the yoke and burden of Christ , and of the hard sayings of his , which flesh and blood brooks not to hear off , for though the way of Christ is light and easie , and not grievous where it is lessened by thoughts of the recompence of reward , yet is it in it self a burden , and a yoke , and such a one too as considering the sufferings of all such as submit to own it , well nigh wearies them that walk under it , though under clearest title to the Kingdome , for which they suffer , much more may it be a misery , and not a mercy to such , who have a promise of being barely admitted to it , but no more of life and salvation , or at least upon no other terms , then such as have not the priviledge to be admitted to it yet at all ; if the promise to believers and their children run only thus , viz. you shall stand under the title of the holy people of God , under right to outward ordinances , when others shall not , not only you , but also your children shall be baptized and inchurched , but neither you nor they ever the sooner saved , as born of you , further then together with you they shall believe and obey me in all things , in which case of faith and obedience all unbelievers in the world , and their children shall be saved , as soon as either you or they , it is as much as to say , the promise of a liberty and freedome to partake of the ordinance , is to you and your children above others , but the promise to partake of the inheritance is as much to all others and their children as to you , and yours ; what most comfortless comfort is this , to men cast down under sense of sin , and guilt ? what a pittious plaister is here applied to men wounded in conscience , and smarting under the direfull apprehensions of Gods wrath ? besides what exquisite non-sense do you make the Apostle speak , if his words be taken in your sense , for they must run thus , viz. first , by way of precept , repent and be baptized you and your children , in the name of Christ for remission of sinnes , and then by way of incouragement thus , viz. so this great priviledge of being baptized shall belong to you and your seed , which impenitent unbaptized ones , and their seed shall not enjoy , but the promise of salvation and remission of sins is made no more to you then unto them : this is to restore them from their contrite and weather beaten condition , and to invest them cum privilegio with a witness , yet this is all the priviledge , if the promise here made to these parents , and their children be of no more then being outwardly incovenanted , i. e. inchurched by baptism ( as you say it is . ) But undoubtedly it must be otherwise then thus for all your saying and the promise , take it which of these two waies you will , viz. for the meer tender or proser of the thing ( as the word promise is sometimes used ) or for the thing it self profered or promised ( in which last sense its mostly taken ) it must needs be of some more excellent matter , then meer outward membership in the Church on ●arth , abstract from all true and immediate title to remission of sinnes and salvation : yea verily its most evident that the thing here promised is no less then remission of sinnes and salvation itself , for as no less is exprest in the very text wherein he names remission of sinnes and the holy spirit , which elsewhere is called the earnest of the inheritance , so unless you will divide the children from sharing alike with their parents in that promise which in the self same sentence , terms and sense is propounded alike to them both , so as to say the word promise is to be understood of remission of sinnes , and salvation as in relation to the parents , but of an inferior thing viz. a right to ordinances onely as in relation to the infants which were intollerable absurdity to utter , it must necessarily be meant of one and the same kind of mercy to the children , as is exhibited therein to the parents ; yea and upon the same terms too , and no other then those upon which its tendred to the parents viz. personall repentance and obedience , and so consequently of remission of sinnes and salvation , and not of such a triviall title to external participation onely as you talk on , which if it be , then unless you assert that God hath promised salvation absolutely to all the natural seed of believers , upon those very terms onely as they are their seed , which you are ashamed to stand to , the promise , mean which you will by that word promise in this text , whether the bare proposall , or the salvation propounded , or both , upon these terms belongs of right not onely to believers and their posterity , but also to all men and their posterity to , without difference , when at years of capacity to neglect or perform them throughout all ages and places of the world ; for as the gospel or glad tidings of salvation are commanded by Christ Mark 16.15 , 16. to be preached or profered to every creature at years to hear and understand , though not to infants on terms of belief and baptism , so assuredly those terms being performed , the salvation so promised shall be injoyed accordingly , if he hath any truth in him , who said ●e that believeth ( i. e. lives and dies in the faith of Christ ) and is baptized , shall be saved ; and Paul likewise Rom. 3.22 . intimates no lesse , saying that the righteousness of God which is by faith of Iesus Christ is unto all , and upon all them that believe , and there is no difference ; so that if they that are now unbelievers and unbelievers children also shall hereafter believe , with such faith as shews it self by obedience , which kind of faith onely the Scripture means , the promise of salvation and remission of sinnes is as well unto them , as unto those that do now both believe themselves , and were also born of believing parents , yea and the promise of the holy spirit also Prov. 1.22.23 . for indeed God so loved the world ( not mundum electorum onely ex mundo electum ) that he gave his onely begotten Son , not to condemn one person more then another , but as they should personally reject him , but that the world through him might be saved , that whosoever in it i. e. in all the world , not in the world of Elect ( for that sounds as if some of the elect may believe , and some not ) do●h believe might not perish , but have everlasting life Iohn 3.16.17.18.19 . All which things well and wisely weighed , he is blind that sees any more birth-priviledge or right by birth to salvation , or the promise of it in believers seed , then in unbelievers ; neither is there now any more priviledge at all in any one mans naturall seed above anothers , save the meer hopefulness of education and advantage of instruction in the way and means of salvation , which may possibly befal believers children more then others , though in case it happen ( as it may possibly also do ) that believers children have their breeding among Turks , and the children of very Indians among believers , in that case these last have not onely no lesse priviledge , as to the promise of salvation by bare birth , but a priviledge also by that breeding beyond the other . That therefore the promise of the Gospel-Covenant in any sense in the world is made to believers seed ( as barely such ) more then to the natural seed of unbelievers ▪ can never be proved by the word , while the world stands , yea the very contrary is most evidently proved in this place Act. 2.38.39 . if we consult no other Scripture besides it . For First , neither were these parents believers as yet when Peter said the promise is to you and to your children , but onely were pricked at the heart upon some measure of conviction , that the person whom they had crucified was the Lord of life , which thing the very Devils believe and tremble at ; for in order unto the begetting of that saving faith , which yet they had not , he spake these words of incouragement , and exhortation to them , and this to the contradiction of Mr. Vahan whod ag'd in an Argument by the head and shoulders from this place at the Ashford disputation , was ingenuously acknowledged by Mr. Prig. Nor Secondly , doth Peter make the promise any otherwise to them and their children then he doth to all others in the world i. e. on condition of their comming in at Gods call , tis saies he to you and to your children , and to them that are far off , i. e. all manner of persons , even so many in all nations and generations as the Lord our God shall call , i. e. as are prevailed with to come when God calls them , which to be the sense of this place is further illustrated by that pararel place of Paul , Heb. 9.15 . where he saies thus , viz. they that are called received the promise of eternall inheritance . Nor Thirdly , when the parents did believe and were baptized , were any of their infants baptized with them ( as they must have been had that promise been to their infants as well as to themselves , on that single account of being their seed ) for recording how many were baptized at that time , he concludes them under such a term , as excludes the infants from that daies work , while he saies thus , as many , meaning no more then those ( for else he deceives us utterly in his Relation ) as gladly received the word ( this infants could not do ) were then baptized , which number , as they are recorded to be about 3000 might in likelihood have amounted to three times 3000 , if all the infants of all those had been dipped also . Fourthly , nor were there any more inchurched that day among the rest , but such as gladly receiving the word , were then and thereupon baptized , for of these onely it is said , and not of infants , they continued together in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship , and in breaking of bread and prayers ; but all their infants must have bin inchurched also as well as they , if equally with their parents , and by vertue of the same promise , the right of Church-membership had belonged to them . Besides Fiftly , It crosseth the current of all other Scripture to put such male-construction upon this , for that the promise of old , I mean the old promise of the Law ; which was of the earthly Canaan , and but a type of this did appertain unto a fleshly holy seed I grant , but that the new covenant , or Gospel promise is made to any mans fleshly seed ( as such so that thereupon we may baptize them in token of it , before they are called to profess faith in Christ ) is a thing , which I confess I found in the common high way , when I look'd not after it , but since I searched narrowly for it I could never see it ; Sure I am the Scripture holds forth no other seed of Abraham himself to be heirs with him of the heavenly Canaan but his spiritual sead , i. e. believers , that do his works , nor doth it own any but these to the right of membership , and fellowship in his family , i. e. the now visible Church , for the visible Church is Abrahams family in all ages , as well under the Gospel as under the Law , & Abrahams house i. e. the visible church as t is under the Gospel is much altered from that it was under the law , yea so differently is it constituted , and totally translated from its Mosaical form , that it is even turned up side down , and in a manner nothing remains the same it then was , as the covenant is not the same with that of that of the law , so neither is any thing else , that appertains to it , but every thing at it were divers from the other , and no way answerable save as the Antitype is answerable to the Type ; for neither is there the the same Mediator , nor the same Priest-hood , nor the same Law , ( for the Priesthood being changed , there must of necessity be also a change of the Law , Heb. 7.12 . That being the Law of a Carnal Commandment only , in the observation of which perfection was not to the conscience , for it sanctified only to purifying of the flesh , i. e. from those outward fleshly , not morall uncleannesses , and therefore with the ordinances thereof called carnall , Heb. 9.9 . this the power of an endless life , i. e. available , not to that temporal typical cleansing , purifying , and pardon only , for the procuring of a Temporal life , or well being in Canaan , but to the obtaining of an eternal life , by procuring remission of moral pollution Heb. 9.13 , 24. nor is there now the same Lawgiver under God that then was , that being Moses the Servant , who yet was faithful to him that appointed him in all his house the fleshly Israel , for a Testimony of those things which were to be spoken after , this Christ the son , who was worthy of more glory than Moses , and is now over his own house , whose house we are that believe to the end , Heb. 3.2.3.5.6 . Nor yet the same Promises , that being of of an earthly , this of an heavenly inheritance ; nor yet the same holy Nation , holy people , holy seed , to which the promises are made , that being the typical promised seed Isaac and his posterity , this the true promised seed , i. e. Christ , and his seed , i. e. all the Saints , that are born of God by faith in him Gal. 3.16 . to Abraham and his seed were the promises made , he saith not unto Seeds as of many , but as of one , and unto thy seed , which is Christ ; nor the same ordinances , and administrations signing the inheritance , those being circumcision , the Passeover ; these baptism in water , and the Supper ; nor lastly the same subjects for those ordinances , those being by nature Iewes or at least by profession , and their Male seed only ( as to the one ) Male and Female as to the other , and that whether believing yea or no , these nor Iewes nor Gentiles by nature only ( but all persons whether Iews or Gentiles , Males or Females , yet only as believing ; for verily so far are the natural posterity of believing Gentiles ( as such , and as yet not professing to believe themselves ) from being heirs apparent with Abraham of Gospel promises , and priviledges , and from title to the Gospel ordinances , that sign them , and from being holy ones by birth , as the Iew once was , and as Mr. Blake contends for it that these are , and from the repute of Abrahams seed in the sense of the Gospel , that even Abrahams own natural seed ( as such only ) are not at all his seed in this sence at this day , nor at all holy with that kind of birth holiness they once had ( for that is ended and abolished in Christ crucified ) nor entailed as heirs of that Canaan , without faith and repentance in their own persons , which and no other , are the terms inrighting therunto , to any of these Gospel ordinances at all , and all this will be seen most undoubtedly to be true , by him that searches the Scripture , which testifie no lesse , and because this is the very Root , and Knot in the state of this controversie , the unfolding and laying open of which will discover the whole mystery of your mistakes in this point , all which arise originally from your erring in it ( for Error minimus in principio fit major in medio , maximus in sine ) pray have me excused both in that I have been hitherto so long , and in case I be yet a little longer on this matter . First then let it be considered that Abrahams own seed , even that seed that were heirs with him by promise of the Earthly Canaan , though born of his body now by Isaac and Iacob as truely , though more remotely then of old , of his body ( I say ) that was the greatest believer that ever was ( Christ only excepted ) and therefore must much more then any other believer ( if any believer at all could ) by his faith confer a right to Gospel priviledges upon his seed , even these are not his seed in the Gospel account , not his heirs according to this Gospel promise , nor as barely born of his body to be baptized and enchurched , and this I shall make plain unto you from many Scriptures the first whereof is Romans 9.6.7.8 . In which I beseech you to observe how the Apostle there denies Abrahams own naturall children the name of Abrahams seed in the sence of the Gospel ; first mark how he magnifies them exceedingly , and sets forth their dignity and preheminence above all other people , under the name of Israelites , as to whom pertained the adoption , and the glory , and the Covenants ; i. e. both Testaments the type and the antitype , unto whom then pertained not only the giving of the law , but also the promises ( for verily the several excellencies of both law and Gospel , upon the several terms upon which both were established , did in more special sence belong unto that people at that time , then to any people under the Sun , yea the first covenant , and the promise thereof the Earthly Canaan and all the priviledges and ordinances signing it did pertain to them , as the proper heirs therof , by bare fleshly descent from Abraham , Isaac and Iacob ; yea all that was theirs ipso facto ( as so born ) without more ado , whether they were believers or not believers , as to the Gospel ; and as for the Gospel covenant , which is now belonging to them in common only with all other men , in one respect it did principally pertain to them above all others , till they lost their preheminence , viz. not in respect of any right to it they had by birth whether they received it , yea or no , but in respect of the first tender therof , which , when it came in fuller force to be ratified to the world in the preaching of the Gospel , was by special order and appointment from God , in the first place to be tendered unto them , nor was it carried at all to the Gentiles , till these Jews had both slighted and rejected it , when brought to them in the Ministery of Christ and Iohn ; in proof of which see in Mat. 10.5.6.7 . where the Disciples sent forth to preach are forbidden to go in any waie of the Gentiles , or to any save the lost sheep of the house of Israel ; yea they were the Children whose bred this was at that time ; and which till they loathed it , was not to be given to the Doggs , excepting a few Crummes of it , I mean to the Gentiles , who till the Partition Wall was broken down between them , and the Iews by Christ crucified , were accounted Doggs , Common , unclean , sinners by nature , in a certain ceremonial sense in reference to the Jewes , who then by birth were holy in a ceremonial sence , now vanisht , then answering as opposite to that birth uncleanness of the Gentiles , Mat. 15.24.25.26.27 . see also Mat. 22.3 . where the Iews are said to be first bidden to the wedding , so Luke 24.46.47 . where Christ commands that in their preaching the Gospel to all Nations , they should first begin at Ierusalem ; and so we see they did , after his ascension Act. 2. see also Act. 3.25.26 . where the Jews are said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 THE Children of the Gospell Covenant , in respect that unto them first God sent his son to bless them , in which respect they are said Mat. 8.12 . to be THE Children of the Kingdome , i. e. the heavenly Kingdom which yet they were cast out into utter darkness from any enjoyment of , for their non-acceptance of it ; so Act. 13.46 . where Paul saies to the Jews that 't was necessary that the word of the gospel should be first spoken to them ; so Acts 28.28 . 't is said , the salvation of God , which the Iew rejected , was from henceforth sent to the Gentiles : Notwithstanding all which glory , and preheminence of this people Israel , whose were the fathers also , and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came , Paul , after he had shewed their high prerogatives above others , comes with Alas , and great sorrow of heart , and much bewailing for their infidelity to exclude them , even all of them , save those few with whom the word of the Gospel took effect , so as to gain them to believe , notwithstanding the antient and legall title , from the very name of Israelites , and from standing Abrahams children now any longer , for saith he ( as who should say the more is the pitty ) They are not all Israell , that are of Israel , i. e. all that are Israelites after the flesh , are not the Gospel Israelites , or Israelites in the Gospels account , because few of them did receive it ; all that were Abrahams seed after the flesh , and stood in his family , i. e. the vis●ble Church of old , as being his seed cannot stand so now , for belivers onely , and such as are Christs by faith are counted for the seed : that this is the meaning of those words is most evident by them that follows for ( saith he ) neither because they are the seed of Abraham , i. e. his fleshly seed , are they called children , i. e , his children thereupon , as to his Gospel Covenant , but in Isaac i. e. Christ in the Antitype shall thy seed be called , that is ( saith he ) expounding himself , and alluding to what was done Allegorically , as in a figure , as concerning Ishmael and Isaac in Abrahams family of old , the children of the flesh these are not the children of God , but the children of the promise are counted for the seed ; the children of the flesh , by which he means those that were born of Abrahams body by Isaac , who now stands in reference to Christ , as Ishmael did in the house of old in reference unto him , these are not the children of God , but the children of the promise , ( such was Isaac in the legal , typicall , ceremonial and carnal account in relation to Ishmael , for not Ishmael but he and his posterity were the promised seed , which should inherit the old Canaan , and such is Christ in the reall , spiritual , Evangelical and everlasting account in relation unto Isaac himself , for not Isaac and his seed as they were Abrahams seed by Sarah , though they were the children of the promise of the earthly Canaan , and a promised seed in respect of Ishmael , but Christ who is the true Isaac , and those that believe in him , among whom sith Isaac was one he will inherit here also , as else he could not , these are the promised seed that must inherit heaven , Rom. 4.13 , Gal. 3.16 . these children of the promise , i. e. these that are of Christ by faith , and so his seed after the faith , are accounted Abrahams seed , his sons and heirs of the world with him , and of the eternal inheritance . A cleerer illustration of this to be the true sense and meaning of the spirit in Rom. 9. you have in Gal. 3.7.9 . where the Apostle uses this term , viz. [ they which are of the faith ] to express no other then the very same persons , whom he here stiles the children of the promise , know ye ( saith he there ) that they which are of the faith , i. e. which believe ( for none else are of faith that I know of ) the same are the children of Abraham , and blessed with faithfull Abraham , he saith not they which be of Abrahams flesh , for such neither are accounted his children , as to the gospel promise , nor simply as such are heirs thereof with him , muchless doth he say or mean , that those which are born of the bodies of them that be of faith , are Abrahams children , and such as must be signed as his sonnes , and heirs by baptism , in such wise as his own fleshly seed were signed by Circumcision as heirs with him of the old Canaan : yet these are your common sayings , who raise such a sort of seed to Abraham at second hand , or third remove , as will never be able to prove their pedegree , or descent from him , either after the flesh , or after the faith either , till they believe themselves , whilest they breath on earth , as if because Abraham is the spiritual father of all that believe and walk in his steps , and they his seed , and sons and heirs with him by promise of eternal life , therefore he must patrizare to all their natural posterity too , and be the spiritual father not of their persons onely , but of their off-spring also : But Sirs , let me tell you he is not so much as a father to his own seed in the Gospel sense , neither can they stand his children ; or the children of God , and heirs of the heavenly blessing and kindome , because they come out of his loines , unless they do as he did , for though his fleshly seed as a type for the time then being , stood denominated the children of God , and holy in an outward sense , and heirs according to the earthly promise , yet that account is gone now , and there 's no other way whereby the Iews themselves , much less any generations among the Gentiles , can be stiled the children of God or Abraham , so as to expect the gospel portion , but believing in Christ Iesus in their own persons , Gal. 3.26.29 . Ye are all the children of God by faith in Iesus Christ : if ye be Christs then are ye Abrahams seed , and heirs according to the promise . Another place which cleers it that Abrahams own seed in the old Covenants account are not his own in the account of the gospel , so as barely thereupon to stand in any title to either the priviledges or ordinances thereof , or to fellowship now in his family , is Iohn 8. where Christ being cavill'd at by the Iews for promising them the priviledge of the Gospel-freedom from sin , , to which they were slaves , servants and bondmen ( for all that legal freedom they did so boast of ) upon faith and continuance in his words , discovers so plainly that a man may run and read it , the discarding of the Jews from all these three things which I am now proving , that for want of faith , they are perished from them since the gospel . First , from the repute and denomination of Abrahams children any longer . Secondly , from any share in the glorious , or spirituall blessing of the Gospel . Thirdly , from any right of abiding longer in the Church , which they were the children of before , which Church ( as visible ) now as well as then , and to the end of the world , since Gods conferring the fatherhood of the faithful upon him , is called the house or family of Abraham . First , they say in a snuff two or three times ore , that they are Abrahams seed v. 33. that Abraham is their father v. 39. that they are not born of fornication ( meaning as Ishmael the Son of the bond-woman , or servant to their mother Sarah was ) but they had one father , even God v. 41. to which Christ replies , not by denial of any of all this , for 't was true every tittle in that sense , in which they meant it , i. e. the typical sense and meaning of the old Covenant , yea they were Abrahams children , and this Christ confesses in plain terms verse 37. I know you are Abrahams seed ; yea they were also the children of God by an outward and typicall adoption of them unto himself , as his peculiar ones , and heirs of that typical inheritance , Ezek. 16.8 . &c. but by telling them that Abrahams children are accounted of otherwise now then formerly , viz. not as comming out of his Ioines , but as doing his works , as being like him , and allied to him , not so much after the flesh as after the faith : whereupon they not yet believing , he denies them to be , and goes about to prove them not to be Abrahams children in the true and substantial sense , in this Hypothesis verse 39. if ye were Abrahams children , ye would do the works of Abraham , to which do but add the minor , viz. but ye do not the works of Abraham , and the conclusion follows thus , viz. therefore ye are not the children of Abraham : you see Christ asserts them to be Abrahams children in the old account , so as to stand members of the old house , but denieth them to be Abrahams children in the sense of the new . Secondly , they say they are free men , and were never in bondage to any man , to which Christ replies by granting it was so indeed , in the outward typical sense that they were free men , and true heirs of that earthly glory , that was promised to Abraham in that old Canaan , but denies them to be freemen as to the gosspel , with that heavenly fredom of the Ierusalem , which is above the mother of all true believers Gal. 4.26 . yea in those spiritual respects , in which the Son makes free indeed those that know and receive the truth and gospel , they were but servants verse 34. and in bondage to sin , which is the greatest slavery of all , as also Paul sayes Gal. 3.25 . that Ierusalem was , which was of old , and was in bondage with her children , so he saies for all their Sonship , yet in truth they are but servants and not sonnes , he grants their Sonship , freedom , and title to the old inheritance , but denies their son and heirship as to the new . Thirdly , they boast and bless themselves in their standing in the house or family of Abraham , i. e. the Church , as to the ordinances , rights and priviledges whereof who but themselves had the title ? for this indeed was their advantage of old , that to them were committed all the oracles of God , to which Christ replies , true they did stand in the house for a time , yet but for a time , and though sons and heirs in the laws typical sense , yet they were were but servants in the Gospels , because they believe not in him , and being but servants ( as Moses and all his house or church the old Israel were , in comparison of Christ the Son , and his house or Church , i. e , the Saints ) they must anon be packing out of the house , and abide in the Church i. e. Abrahams family no longer , that the true Sons and heirs may come in , i. e. believers , who are the blessed seed to whom onely the Gospel-promises and priviledges do belong , ver . 35. And the servant ( saith he ) abideth not in the house for ever , but the son abideth ever , if therefore the son make you free , and that he doth not for all your former freedome , unless you believe in him , and continue in his words , then shall ye be free indeed , even to the glory , oracles and blessings of the spiritual house the Gospel-church , which else you must be cut off from for ever : thus Christ tells them , and so indeed it came to passe within a while , for not believing and repenting , which are the only terms that give right and admittance to the ordinances and fellowship of the Gospel , these Iews though natural branches of Abraham still as much as ever , if being the fleshly seed of a believer could have steaded them at all , as to a standing here , were yet clean broken off from the Root Abraham , as he st●nds a Root to all the faithful , because onely of unbelief , Rom. 11.20 . when such as were wild olives , and no kin at all to Abraham after the flesh , were in their own persons , but not their natural seed with them ( save as they believed with them ) own'd as his children by believing , and as members of the true Church under the Gospel . And this was also most directly declared by Iohn the Baptist , and the rest of the first ministers of the Gospel , who would not admit of the Jews as Jews , though Abrahams own seed , and holy by birth , and members thereupon of that Church under the law to baptism , and membership in the Gospel-church , when they offered themselves upon the aforenamed terms , without faith , repentance , and amendment ; for howbeit the Pharisees and Saduces and the whole multitude of people came forth to be baptized of Iohn , Mat , 3.7 . &c. Luke 3.7 . &c. pretending and pleading that if baptism were a Church-priviledge , it must needs belong to them , as who were the children of Abraham , yet see how he rounds them up as having no part nor portion in that matter : O generation of vipers saith he ) who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come ? as if he had said , what have you to do with that remission of sinnes , righteousness and redemption from wrath to come , which I preach and baptize in token of , being though invested with circumcision , Church-membership and other legal rites and priviledges , yet corrupt and crooked in conversations ? bring forth therefore , i. e. to the end that you may be admitted , baptized , and inchurched here , fruits answerable to amendment of life , and begin not , ( its like that plea was in their thoughts and mouths too , whereupon he puts them off from it ) think not to say that we have Abraham to our father , we are the seed of such an eminent believer , for God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham , i. e. God will , without being beholding to you , raise a seed to Abraham , rather then want them , from among these stones , which whether he meanes stones litterally , or the Gentiles which were yet as stocks and stones in their eies , I leave you further to examine , but thus much we may gather hence however , that even in that very time wherein the birth-priviledge and holiness of a fleshly seed stood in full force and power unrepealed ( as then it did ) so far as to give right to all ordinances of the law , yet , even then I say before , how much more since the Abrogation thereof by faith , Abrahams own seed could not , much less then may the seed of believing Gentiles , now it s repealed , ( as such ) be admitted to baptism without repentance : the Jews as impenitent and unbelieving as they were , stood uncast out of the Jewish Church , while that Jewish Church it self was yet standing , but they could not passe per saltum out of that Church into the Gospel Church , nor immediately from their right to circumcision , which meer fleshly birth gave them , prove their right , without somewhat more , to baptism ; yet thus they might have done , if what gave right of old to one of these ordinances , doth in like manner inright persons to the other , And this that Abrahams own naturall seed do not now stand his seed , so as thereupon onely , or at all to stand in this house of Abraham , i. e. the visible Church of the Gospel , and in title to the promises and priviledges thereof , is further and more lively figured out to our understandings in that admirable allusion of Paul to the things transacted of old , as a type hereof in the family of Abraham , between the two mothers and their children , viz. Hagar and Sarah , Ishmael and Isaac , Gal. 4.21 . to the end , where ( to give you but a hint of the thing , that you may follow it in your own thoughts at leasure ) having first related what is written of Abrahams having two sonnes , one by his bond-maid Hagar , viz. Ishmael , that was born after the flesh , the other by the free woman , or his true wife Sarah , viz. Isaac , who though born of Abrahams flesh as well as the other , yet because he was promised to come of Abrahams true spouse Sarah , long before he did , was said to be born by promise , he asserts these things to be an Allegory , i. e. things which though really and truly done , yet were done also in a figure , and as a shadow of some other things to come viz. the two Covenants and two seeds of Abraham thereunto belonging , or the two several Jerusalems or Churches of the law and the Gospel , with their several children viz. the fleshly seed of Abraham and the spiritual , each answering respectively , not only as anti-types to their several types , that point●d at them , whether the maid and her son , or the mistriss and hers , but also inter se invicem , as the two mothers and their children did , each of them unto the other , for these ( saith he ) i. e. these two mothers and children , the bondwoman and her son , and the freewoman and her son , are the two Covenants or testaments , meaning in signification , or in way of resemblance of them , the one from mount Sinai , the other from mount Sion , both spoken of , and to the life also pointed out one ore against the other in Heb. 12.18 . to the end , that from mount Sinai , or that Testament , which was given in the hand of the Media●or Moses , that gendreth to bondage , or enthrawles her children , this is Hagar , for this Hagar who brought out her son to bondage is ( saith he ) mount Sinai in Arabia , or that law of Moses given on mount Sinai in Arabia , and answereth to , i. e. as a type points out , and signifies the Ierusalem that now is , i. e. the Church of the Iews before Christ , which notwithstanding her childrens abode i● the house of Abr●ham , and her Hagarlike flaunting , and vaunting her self over the other for a time , as if she were the onely mistriss , whose seed must inherit all , yet in comparison of the true mother , and her seed , viz. the gospel Ierusalem , which was yet to come , was but in bondage with her children , and must when that seed once should come in , be chashiered and cast quite and clean out of doors as a seed to be no more accounted on , so far as to abide with the other : for nevertheless ; i , e. all her present liberty , and immunity notwithstanding , what saith the Scripture ? ( saies he ) cast out the bond woman and her son , for the son of the bond woman shall not be heir with the Son of the free woman , i. e. the seed of the old Covenant of the Earthly Ierusalem , viz. the natural seed of Abraham , shall not share in priviledges , nor the inheritance promised in the Gosspel together with the spiritual seed , viz. the believers or children of the Church under the Gospel . Thus as Hagar , and her son Ishmael , that stood in Abrahams house a while , and were proud and insolent , as if they should have dwelt there for ever , were at last packt out before Isaac the true son and heir by promise of the old inheritance , and ordinance , when he was born , and before Sarah , who would not indure to have Ishmael have any portion in Canaan , or any room in the house with her son Isaac , so also Sarah her self , and her son Isaac , I mean the fleshly Ierusalem , and Jew that dwelt as Mistris , and heir for a time in the house , inheriting only some outward excellencies , and enjoyments , were at last , being found mocking thereat , cast out of the house , i. e. the Church , the Son-ship , the glory , and all before the true Mother and her children , viz , the Gospel Church or true Sarah , and the true Isaac , Christ and his Saints , or seed of Believers , who will not bear nor brook it to have a meer fleshly seed , though of Abraham himself , much less of any Gentile believers , to dwell with them in the family : Isaac and the fleshly Israelites were by promise to inherit the old Testament priviledges , and the Ishmaelites were not suffered ( as such ) to partake with them therein ; Christ and believers are by promise to receive the eternal inheritance , nor is any mans fleshly posterity , no not Abrahams own by Isaac , I mean the Israelites themselves ( as such ) permitted or promised to participate therein : Ishmael though as Abrahams seed after the flesh he had a portion , yet had nothing to do with that of Isaac the child of promise in the type ; Isaac though Abrahams son , not only after the flesh , but by promise too ( as in reference to Ishmael ) and so in true title to a better portion then Ishmaels , viz. the Earthly Canaan , and that as a type for a time , yet being but his fleshly seed in comparison to Christ , and believers , and by his bare fleshly birth ( save only that he was a spirituall child also by believing ) as inferior to them , as Ishmael was to himself , hath nought at all to do ( as the fleshly seed of Abraham ) with that heavenly portion that belongs to these . Now then if it be so ( and so it will appear to him that doth not trifle , but truely understand the Scriptures , and this last especially which with many more viz , Heb. 8. Heb. 9. speak expresly of two distinct covenants or Testaments , made with two sorts of seeds of Abraham concerning two Canaans , viz. an Earthly and a Heavenly , whereof one all along was a type of the other , for a time only , and now ended , contrary to all our blind Seers , that confound , and blindly blend both of them into one ) if so I say that Abrahams own sons by bodily birth are not now his own in Gospel account , nor heirs ( as so born only ) of the Gospel promise and inheritance , nor house dwellers in the Gospel Church , for want of personal faith , though Abrahams children after the flesh still as much as ever , then I cannot but stand amazed at the perverseness of you the Priesthood in three things . First in that meerly because you and your people do believe ( and I would to God you did believe , for so but few , for all your flourish of either you or your people do indeed ) therefore you count your natural seed the seed of Abraham , this you express in plain terms in your Review p. 14. Secondly in that , even Eâtenùs , as your children only , you hold them heirs of the promise of the Gospel covenant made with Abraham . Thirdly in that you sign them as visibly such by Baptism ( as you call it ) and thereby admit them into membership in the Gospel Church ( as you call it ) and having yet no evidence of their belief , conclude them under a true title to all outward ordinances , save such as upon your own heads only you keep from them , if by the word they have such title to Church-fellowship , as you say they have , viz. the Supper , of which you make them snap short , as much , and as groundlessly to the full ( if baptism at all belong to them ) as we in baptism . Sirs , let me reason with you a little , and begg some cool consideration , and ingenuous answer from you concerning these particulars . First which way come your natural seed , you being but Gentiles in the flesh , to be the seed of Abraham ? Secondly why do you , or how can you sign them as heirs of the Gospel promise so simply upon that account only ? there are but two seeds of Abraham that I know of in all the world , viz. 1. His seed after the flesh , and such are all those that are born of his body , viz. Ishmael , and his Children by Keturah , to whom he gave portions , and those that came of him by Isaac and Jacob , which only ( for Esau sold his birth-right ) were heirs with him of the Land of Canaan . 2. His seed after the faith , and such are those only that walk in his steps Rom. 4.12 . that do his works John 8. Who are also by that same faith which denominates them his children , said to be Christs also , and the children of God , and heirs with him of the world according to the Gospell Promise , Rom. 4.12 , 13. Gal. 3.16 . 1 Cor. 3.21.22.23 . Non datur tertium semen Abrahae : two seeds of Abraham the Scripture mentions , but a third sort cannot be assigned , all and only those that descend from his loines as the Midianites and others by Keturah , the Ishmaelites by Hagar , the Edomites and Israelites by Sarah , which last only were the holy seed , and children of promise in reference to the Hagarens in a type and sole heirs of the typical Canaan , all these I say were the first sort , all believers , of what nation soever , are the second sort , but the natural seed of believers are neither of the one nor of the other . As for the children of the Proselites , i. e. Iews not by birth , but profession , which by way of exception against this may possibly pop into some of your minds , I utterly deny them ( as so born ) to be any seed of Abraham at all , or heirs of either inheritance , unless they believed also , though their parents ( believing ) might be his spiritual seed , and heirs of the heavenly inheritance ; and if you ask why then was every male among the infants of Proselites circumcised ? I answer not upon any such account as their being Abrahams seed , or heirs with him of either this or that , but meerly as they were Males in the house of one that was a Jew , at least by devotion , though a stranger as to fleshly relation , that being the express command of God , for the time then being , and during the standing of that Covenant of circumcision ( the like to which if you had for infant-baptism , the controversie were at an end between us ) that every man child in every family throughout all generations , whether born in the house or bought with money of any stranger , that was no● of Abrahams flesh should be circumcised , Gen. 17. 12. for there was but one Law and ordinance for the stranger , or Proselite Iew , and him that was a Iew by birth concerning circumcision and the Passeover , Numb . 9.14 . upon this same and no other account very many , viz. forreign man-servants , in every family of any Iew , were by appointment to be circumcised , meerly as being males of the family , though neither born of Abraham , nor believing with him , nor any way at all his seed , nor yet heirs with him of either Canaan , which injunction and order of God concerning that old covenant ordinance of circumcision , or the Passeover either , to which the Supper answers , more lively than baptism to the other , if we might at all regard what was done then , as a Rule for us now , who so shall produce as the Pattern or infer any thing from as the instution of God , according to which we are to act in the New Testament ordinances of Baptism , and the Supper ; and yet not act according to them neither , but abominably besides them both ( as the Priest-hood doth , baptizing ( as not at all but rantizing so ) not at all after the manner of circumcision , viz. not males only , not on the eighth day only , but any other , when they may as well upon that , not servants also upon the Masters , faith as well as the Children upon the parents , and as for the Supper denying it utterly to infants that might then eat the Passeover ) I avouch them to be not a little besides their natural , but much more besides their spiritual intellectualls . Let this then satisfy as to any conceit , that any may have , as that the Proselites seed were the children of Abraham , and heirs with him because circumcised , viz. that though all Abrahams seed that were heirs with him were circumcised , yet all that were circumcised were not thereby proved to be Abrahams seed , nor heirs with him of either promise , and though his fleshly seed , Israel the heir especially , and his spirituall seed also , i. e. believing Jewes , and Proselites were both thereupon to come under that dispensation , and that as heirs too severally of the two severall promises , viz. the typifying , and typified Canaan , yet many past under circumcision upon that forenamed account only , of being males in the house , that were neither Abrahams seed after the flesh nor after the faith , as Servants , and the seed of Proselite Masters , Fathers , not appearing yet to believe with them ; for even such were to be circumcised under the law , though ( by your leave ) not such to be by the like reason baptized under the Gospell , for as there is no command for such a matter , so if there had , the Servants of the Eunuch ( himself only turning Christian ) must have been ( as t is known they were not ) baptized together with him : besides if baptism must be like to circumcision in its subject , then not only he that is not yet apparently an heir , but he also that is apparently not an heir by faith must be baptized , aswell as Abrahams sonne Ishmael , and his servant Eleazer , and all the other males of his house were circumcised , who were all well enough known to Abraham , to be none of the heirs of that land of Canaan , whereof circumcision was given to him , and his seed in Isaac , in token of their inheriting of it , at that very time when he circumcised them . I demand therefore yet once again , what seed of Abraham your infants are , in that thereupon you undertake ( as so ) to baptize them ? you tell us in your Review , pag. 14. They are Semen fidei , the children of his faith , his spiritual seed ; I am ashamed to hear you say so , which way do they come to be , in that minority , his spiritual seed , sith believers only are so ? you seem to tell us they are so by believing themselves , for so Zachaeus , say you , by believing was made the Son of Abraham , as who should say Zachaeus became , as infants do , the spiritual seed of Abraham by believing , which word believing is as much as not having only , but acting faith , which to act not others only but your selves , who sillyly assert them to have faith , do somewhat more sensibly p. 8. confess them to be uncapable . Others tell us , and even your selves too sometimes , and in effect in that very same page , that they are semen fidei , or the seed of Abrahams faith , upon another account , viz. as their parents are believers , for the promise is ( say you , though that is no Scripture phrase at all in that place whence you quote it , viz. Act 2.39 . ) to believers and their seed , and if the adversaries say that the Iewes were Semen carnis , and had right by the promise so these say you concerning the seed of believers , are semen fidei , and the promise is to them ; which words , The Promise , The Promise , The Promise , you will scrible down twenty times in one Treatise before you will sit down once and search out seriously what it is , or once shew distinctly what it is you mean by it . So then howbeit with Iohn baptist , Mat. 3. with Christ , Iohn 8. Luke 19.8 , 9. with Paul Rom. 4.13.9 , 6 , 8. Gal. 3.7.9 . there is but one way of becoming Abrahams spiritual seed , or the children of his faith , so as thereupon to be signed by baptism as heirs with him of the Gospel-promise , and this is not by being the fleshly posterity of a believer , though it should be of believing Abraham himself , for even his own fleshly were not his spiritual seed , but onely as they believed with him , but by bringing forth fruits of repentance , doing his works , treading in the steps of his faith , you belike have found more wayes to the wood then one , whereof when ones failes you in the fight , you commonly take your flight by the other , and with you there 's two wayes whereby persons , nay , which is a greater mystery , whereby the same persons , even believers infants in their very infancy , may and do become Abrahams spiritual sons and heirs , viz. first by their own walking in the steps of Abrahams faith , i. e. believing themselves , which though it be the true way of becoming Abrahams spirituall seed , yet infants are not capable to walk in it . Secondly , by being the natural progeny of believing parents ; which though infants are capable of it , yet is none of the way whereby to be canonized , according to the sense of Scripture , the Spirituall seed of Abraham . But it seems the terms upon which persons become heirs with Abraham of Gospel-promises , and stand in true title to Gospel-ordinances , are not uniform , but multiform in your imagination , for those on which persons in the capacity of parents are priviledged with the title of Abrahams spiritual seed , and title to Gospel-ordinances and enjoyments , are their own believings not anothers ; but those on which others , i. e. all that are in the capacity of children to those parents are thus highly priviledged , are the believing of their parents , whether they have any faith of their own yea or no , and yet some count that the childs own faith which the parent professes for him . But Genus , et pro avos , et quae non fecimus ipsi vix ea nostra voco . Sirs , what pretty intricate blind bo-beep Divinity is this of yours ? do the same priviledges and promises belong to the believing parents and their children , and yet though exhibited to them both alike in one and the self same phrase and form of speech ( for saith Peter the promise is to you and your children , and to them that are farre off yea even as many ( meaning of you and your children and of them that are far off ) as the Lord shall call ) do they belong upon such various and different grounds , viz. to the parents upon their own faith , to the children upon the parents faith ? my father then it seems , what ere his fathers were , must prove his pedegree from Abraham by his doing as Abraham did , or else he can be no gospel-son , nor share at all in any gospel-priviledges and immunities , but if he were a believer , I his son may prove mine at easier rates by farr , viz. by going no further then the faith and faederation of my father . But Sirs , will this hold a triall think you by the word ? is there any such manglements as these to be found there ? is it to be found there that now under the gospel-Covenant since that outing of the old Covenant , and that fleshly seed , that were heirs of it , and all the tipical pertinencies thereof the faith and faederation of fathers inrights and enrouls all their fleshly seed as Heirs with them of salvation , without any evidence of their believing themselves ? then tell me why the fleshly seed of those great believers , Abraham , Isaac , and Iacob stand excommunicated from all Gospel-priviledges , participations of ordinances , promises , &c. even from the beginnings of the Gospel Church and first administring of baptism to this very day ? will you plead your own right above theirs to stand his children in the Gospel-Church by saying , we had holy men and believers to our fathers , but their fathers believed not the Gospel , therefore worthily are they cut off with them ? I reply thus , were not Abraham , Isaac and Iacob their fleshly fathers ? and though remote ones , yet were they not their true fathers after the flesh still as much as ever ? did Iohn Mat. 3. and Christ Iohn 8. and Peter Acts 2. deny them a standing in the Gospel house and admission unto baptism and membership without repentance and belief in their own persons , and doing the works of Abraham ? did they I say put such off from all Gospel-expectations and priviledges who offered themselves thereto with this plea , viz. we have Abraham to our father ? and dare you admit such without faith or repentance , for whom you can make no higher pretence then this , viz. they are the children of believers ? me thinks if meer birth-priviledges and fleshly descent , must carry it still without faith in the seed themselves , are not the Iews infants to this day higher born then any Gentiles infants in the world , whose parents are believers ? for they verily can say no less then this , we are the natural issue of the father of all the faithfull , yet may they not be own'd barely upon that account to gospel-ordinances , and if the natural seed , and that by Isaac and Iacob of Abraham himself the grand believer , which seed could of old claim a room by right of birth from Abraham in the house of Moses , cannot possibly carry it so high under Christ , as by the same descent , onely without faith in themselves , to gain a standing in his house , or so much as right to be stiled their own natural fathers children ( as to the Gospel ) I am amazed to see you Gentile believers to conferre upon your meer natural seed the name of Abrahams spiritual seed , and denominate your semen carnis his semen fidei . 〈◊〉 The Iews , though the natural seed of Abraham , yet cannot have the account of the spiritual seed , nor any right to Gospel priviledges because they believe not themselves , which if they did they should have right to the Gospel as well as we who believe , but sith they abide in unbelief they are cut off from all share in these things . Baptist. Then learn once I beseech you this lessen from your selves , which you will not learn from Iohn , Christ and Paul , viz. that the ground of standing Abrahams spiritual seed , sons and heirs ; and Church-members under the Gospel is not the the faith and faederation of the parents , by vertue of which you plead your childrens right to baptism , saying they have believers , as the Jews once to Iohn pleaded theirs , saying , we have Abraham to our father , but faith it self in the particular persons so standing , for so many Jews , heathens , infidels children as are of the faith of Abraham , i. e. not born of faithful parents , but faithful themseves ( as he was ) are incorporated ; incovenanted , inchurched as Abrahams seed , and Evangelically blessed with faithful Abraham ; but till even believers children , yea Abrahams own believe themselves , the parents faith cannot now possibly ingraft them , the time of faith or standing by faith alone in the house , or visible Church of God being now come in , the standing by any fleshly generation what soever is done away , yea Abrahams own children , the naturall branches that grow out of his loynes are cut off from standing ( as till Chirist they did ) now any longer upon their own Root Abraham , because of unbelief . I say then that no infant in infancy , of what believing parent soever , is either Abrahams spiritual seed , or dying in infancy is saved upon any such account as a believers seed , or Abrahams seed , nor whilst living an infant onely , may be signed by baptism as an heir apparent of salvation : for if Abraham stand not a spiritual father to his own meer fleshly seed , he stands not so sure to the meer fleshly seed of any believing Gentile , for that were to priviledge every ordinary believer , and his natural seed above either himself or his own . Nor doth this hinder , or deny the salvation of the dying infants of believers , or dispose them ere the sooner ( muchless necessarily ) to damnation , to say they are not Abrahams spirituall seed ( quâ believers infants ) nor heirs to salvation upon any such account as that , for though neither upon that , nor any other account at all they may warrantably be baptized , yet it s more then possible , or probable either ( because infallible ) that there 's other Scripture account enough , upon which when we see them die in infancy we may assert them undoubtedly not to be damned ; for as it is most sure and true , that all that are apparently ( if really ) Abrahams spiritual seed by faith must so living , so dying be saved , in token and farther evidence of which to themselves more then others they are by the good wil of Christ to be baptized , yet is it neither true , nor necessary that all that are saved must be Abrahams spiritual seed by faith , but most certain that some shall be saved , that never were Abrahams seed in any sense at all , witnesse not onely the faithful fore-fathers of Abraham , for he was their seed , and not they his , but also all dying infants of what parents soever both before Abrahams time , and since , of whom to salvation notwithstanding those are the onely termes on which it belongs to adult ones , to whom it s preacht , Mark 16.15 , 16. these being truly capable of neither , 't is not required that they should either repent , believe or be baptized . I know this Iustification of dying infants without faith is uncouth , and little less , for all it holds forth so much salvation , then damnable doctrine among you Divines , that plead the contrary , but I shall by the help of God make it good to the faces of you all , when I come to consider the baldness of your consequence in this point , as you give me good occasion to do in some places , where me thinks you meddle with it somewhat clumsily , as it were in mittins , as if because there 's no other way revealed for the salvation of such by Christ , to whom the gospel is preached , who are capable to hear , and do what 's required , for such onely the word universally speaks of , when it speaks of salvation in that way , but the way of belief and actuall obedience onely , therefore there 's no other way for the salvation of dying infants by Christ , who can possibly neither believe in him , nor obey him , which as it is such shameful stuff , that I cannot bear it with out inward blushing at your blindness , so whether you have not as much cause to be ashamed on 't within your selves is well worth your inmost inquiry . I say therefore again , so far is this from excluding dying infants of believers from entrance into the kingdome of heaven , to say they are neither Abrahams spiritual seed by faith , nor heirs thereof upon that ground onely of being so , that it rather concludes and supposes there 's some other ground that is common with them to the innocent infants of even infidels , and all the world , upon which these , whom , though they are hundreds to one , yet your selves in your fierce wrath , and merciless cruelty devote universally to damnation , may dying in infancy universally be saved also ; which ground if you will yet know it , is the righteousness of Christ , the free imputation of which universally from the father saves not onely all that believe from both that , and their actuall transgressions too , but even the whole world , whether they believe it or no from the the imputation of Adams transgression ; so that none at all ever perish upon that account , in which respect he is said to be the Saviour of all men , but especially of them that believe : much more doth it , and that without faith , save all dying infants , who as they believe not , so have not as yet by any actual sin bard themselves , or deserved exemption , or become liable at all to the second death , i. e. the damnation of hell , which befalls not any but upon personal neglect of the light and grace of life , brought in by the second Adam , as the first death onely overtakes mankind for onely that sin of the first Adam . Babist . If all dying infants are saved then not few but many , if not the maior part must be saved , contrary to that of Christ , Mat. 7.13.14 . Luke 13.23.24 . where he saith few there are that are saved . Baptist. There are indeed but few inter adultos among persons that come to years , of whom alone , and not of Infants at all Christ there speaks , and even every where else , where he speaks to us of the way of life , and this is plain by the reason he there gives why so few are saved , which is the straitness of the gate , and narrowness of the way that leads to life , viz. of self-denial , and suffering for Christ , which men mostly being very loath to walk in , it comes to pass that few of them come to life by it ; but infants being altogether uncapable to walk in it , are are altogether dis-ingaged from walking in it till they come to capacity so to do , and yet are not damn'd for not walking in it : when we come to years of understanding , and to apprehend the good will of God to us , in providing a Saviour for us , his good will concerning us in order to salvation by him is , that we believe in him and obey him , and apply his righteousness unto our selves , Gal. 3.27 . but whilst we are yet in such minority , as neither to know what God hath done for us , nor to be capable of putting on the Lord Iesus our selves , he himself is pleased to impute his righteousness to salvation to us so dying , even as we our selves , whilst our infants are new born , do not onely provide , but also put on what clothes we have provided in our pitty towards them , for the covering of their nakedness , but when they come to years of such discretion as to discern , and be sensible of their own shame , and capable to dress themselves with their own hands , we expect when in our love we have once provided raiment for them , they should put it on themselves , or go without it : thus candid are we towards the dying infants of all sorts : nevertheless , though we tell you of our charity towards them , and of your own cruelty in sending all heathen infants to hell , and this no less then twenty times over , yet we must expect to hear it from ore the pulpit cloth twenty times ore again , before the devil be dead , how blessed and charitable your doctrine is , and what most bloody and cruel opinionists the Anabaptists are concerning infants . Infants then I say of what parents soever are either such as die in the personall innocency of their own infancy , and so are universally saved , and yet in token , or as a sign thereof to themselves there 's neither need , nor sense , nor reason to baptize them ; or else such as live to understanding , and then they appear , either not to do Abrahams works , and then we own them not yet as Abrahams seed , though born of believing parents , yea though of believing Abraham himself , not as heirs according to the Gospel-promise , or else to belieue in Christ , and walk in the steps of Abraham , and then of what parents soever , though of infidels , we are to own them as Abrahams spiritual seed , and such as ( so abiding ) are heirs apparent by promise of the heavenly Canaan : this we can never discern by them in their infancy , not knowing yet whether they shall die infants , or live to years , nor whether when they come to years they will reject Christ or receive him . To conclude this then , that any mans fleshly seed in the world is upon the meer account of their natural descent of such or such parents , or further then as dying in infancy they have no actual sin to condemn them , or living to act sin they believe in Christ ( in both which cases the seed of unbelievers are as capable of salvation as the seed of believers themselves ) are by promise heirs of salvation , and in token thereof are to be baptized , and in baptism visibly sign'd ( more then other children ) as children o● God , members of Christ , and inheritors of the Kingdom of heaven , t is a lesson which I learn'd once by roat , and had by root of heart , when in the minority of my standing in the false ministry with you , I was verst in the Priests Primmer of Common-prayer , and ( as to Gospel-administrations ) was skild but little further then the Psalter , but when I once turn'd over a new leaf , and began ●o advance a little further , even into the Scripture , which in some volumes was in those dayes annexed as some certain appendix at the end of it , I could never read that lesson perfectly since , neither can I learn now that any mans fleshly seed , that lives and yet believes not , can make any clearer claim of kindred to Abraham as their father , or to the Gospel inheritance by a meer bodily birth of believers only , then I can make of my kindred to the Great Turk , and of my tight to succeed him ( as his heir ) in his dominion , by pleading that between them both his Grandmother and mine had four elbowes . Now therefore Sirs , let it be seriously considered by you , that that outward meer denominative birth holiness , which was once in the seed of the Iews , and is now supposed , and asserted by you to be in the seed of believing Gentiles , as it was then peculiar to that people only ; that were Iews by either nature or Religion , so it is now universally and utterly ended in Christ crucified , and no more to have a being among them , or any other people under heaven . It was not by Christ comming communicated , or ( as Mr. Blake cloudily contends , throughout his Mistaken Treatise of birth-priviledge , and covenant holiness ) conveyed from the Iews to believing Gentiles , and their seed , but clearly cashiered , and confiscated , so that ther 's now no such thing to be found at all . 'T is not devolved downwards but rather resolved into that Gospel truth , and substance which it shadowed out , yea and totally dissolved , ecclipsed , annihilated , swallowed up ( as the light of the Moon before the Sun ) being clothed upon with a far greater , and more glorious holiness than it self ; for as the type was in time to give way , and be gone when the thing typified thereby should once come into existence , so all that old covenant holiness even the holiness of that seed Isaac , and his posterity as well as other things that were predicated by it , was , as but a type of a more perfect hol●nes , and holy seed to come , to flee away , as Ishmael before himself , when once Christ should come , and that holy seed to stand in the house to whom the promises of the Gospel do belong . Babist . This seed you speak of , viz. believers was come before Christ , and in being under the law as well as now , therefore they sure cannot be the holy seed shadowed out by that holy seed that came of Isaac . Baptist. True the Gospel holy seed was under the law , but not the Laws holy seed under the Gospel , the substance being ever when and where the shadow is , but the shadow not alwaies when and where the substance : Novum Testamentum semper & ubique fuit in vetere velatum , vetus non in novo , nisi revelatum : the law , and its holy things are not in being , but only revealed what they were , under the Gospel , but the Gospel , and its holy things were in being ( though veiled over ) under the law , and yet for all that the Gospel is said truly to come then , because it came not into its full force till Christ came , so faith is said to come in with Christ , Gal. 3.23.25 . not as if there were no faith in the world before , but because both the fulness of the things before believed came in then , and things before believed came then into full force and act , and also because the way of standing in the Church , which before was chiefly by a fleshly birth , comes now to be no otherwise then by a spirituall birth from above , by faith in Christ Iesus , Rom. 11. thou standest by faith ( faith Paul , speaking of the manner of the Gospel standing in the visible Church ) so that the holy seed , and heirs of the Gospel covenant i. e. believers , which are the seed of Christ , Esay , 53. He shall see his seed , are said to come then , though there was such a seed in the world from the beginning thereof , because they then came to dwell alone as it were in the house , where Ishmael the sonne of the Bondwoman ( to speak after the Allegory ) I mean the fleshly Israelites , a meer fleshly seed dwelt together with them ( as Ishmael did with Isaac , till he was cast out ) in former time ; for even as Ishmael the servant dwelt as it were the Son and heir in the house till Isaac was born , and then after a while was cast out , that Isaac the true heir might dwell alone , and such as should successively come from him , so Israel after the flesh , though a servant in reference to the Gospel Israel , dwelt , and domineered , as the only child of the Church till Christ the true Isaac was born , and then after a while was cast out of the Church , that his seed might dwell there alone forever after . Babist . If it be so that believers only a●e that holy seed which is now to stand in the visible Church ; how is it that you baptize , and ●nchurch such among you sometimes as are no true believers ? Baptist. We receive all that we receive by baptism into the Church under the notion of true believers only ; and such they are so far as we are capable to conceive by that outward profession of faith , upon which only we admit them ; but if our charity be so mistaken ( as that of the Apostles themselves was in the like case ) that persons after either appear to be Hypocrites , or prove Apostates , we have warrant from the word , according to which we also act , to cast them out again , as those that have no right at all to stand there , whilest by their works they seem to be unbelievers , till by some future and clearer fruits thereof we can guess them groundedly to be converted truly to the faith . All then that we can say of the holiness , and holy things that were under the first covenant , which had then ordinances of divine service , but carnal ones , and a worldly sanctuary , an humane , infirm , and imperfect High-priest-hood , an earthly inheritance , a fleshly seed , which yet were all holy for the time then being , all ( I say ) that can be now said of them , is this , they were Typical , Ceremonial , and abiding only till the time of Gospell reformation , Heb. 9.9 . and are now all abrogated , and out of date , so that we may say ( as he fuit Ilium ) so fuit Canaan , fuit urbs , fuit lex , fuit Templum , fuit sanctum Sanctorum , fuit sacerdotium , fuit sacrosanctum semen : there was indeed a holy land , a holy City , a holy Law , a holy Temple , a holy Priest-hood , a holy seed , but all these belonging to a first Covenant , which was faulty , and so gave place in time to a second ; all ornaments , furniture , and accomplishments of a covenant , that decayed , waxed old , was ready to vanish , and is now long since vanished before a better , there were priviledges , there was a freedome , there was a rest , there was a holiness ; there was a glory , there was a Mosaical ministration , but as it was less glorious by far then the Gospel ministration of Christ , so , as the shine of a Star when the Sun rises , it past away , and perished from before it , when the other came in , so that they were at a loss that then did , as those are that still do dote , though but in part , upon it , not looking stedfastly to the end of that which is now abolished , and not considering that all that glory is done away and hath something remaining in its stead that is more glorious than it , nor that all that which was made glorious and holy , as a type , for a while , viz. the holy City , the glorious holy mountain , the holy Priesthood , holy Temple , holy root , holy branches , and what ever else was so denominated , hath now no glory , nor holiness at all upon it by reason of a glory that excelleth , 2 Cor. 3.9.10 , 11.13 . Babist . Abraham is still an holy root , and his children holy branches , even now under the Gospel , as well as of old under the law , and so are believing parents to their seed , as the Iews of old were to their children , for saith Paul Rom. 11.16 . if the first fruit be holy , so is the lump ; and if the root be holy , so are the branches , at Mr. Blake also well observeth in his Birth-priviledge p. 7. Baptist. That the Root here is Abraham for my part I freely grant you , since t is supposed you have so much advantage by it , although t is sub judice among some , whether by the root in that place be not meant Christ , because the standing upon it is said to be by faith only , which is that only that ingrafts persons into Christ , and ( as some say ) ingrafts them into Christ only , and not any other : and that by the olive-tree is meant the house or family of Abraham i. e. the visible Church , and that the branches , and lump that are here said to be holy , are Abrahams children al●o , but I beseech you let it be considered that Abraham was a root two wayes , or a double holy root , standing respectively so to a two-fold lump , or two sorts of holy branches , viz , natural and spiritual , his children after the flesh , and after the faith , his typically and ceremonially holy seed , and his morally and really holy seed , his sons by generation and heirs by promise of the the earthly Canaan , i. e. the carnal Israelites , and his sonnes by regeneration i. e. the Saints and believers , who are heirs by promise of the heavenly Canaan , and the true Israelites in whom is no guile ; under the ●irst Covenant , or old Testament Abraham stood a holy root to his natural branches born of his body by Isaac and Iacob , which also in a figure and pro tempore , to shadow out the holy seed to come , that should inherit heaven , were ( by bare denomination more then inward qualification ) a holy seed , inheriting a figurative holy land ; but under t●e Gospel , the substance being come in place , that shadow is fled , and howbeit Abraham is a holy root now unto the end of the world , as well as before , yet not now any longer to his own fleshly seed by Isaac , much less the meer carnal seed of believing Gentiles , but to the other sort of seed , viz. the children of his faith , that walk in his steps , and do his works , for the natural branches of his own body are now broken off , and can stand no more a holy seed , and branches in reference to that holy root Abraham for the want of faith , but the other i. e. all , and onely such as believe , of what nation or parents soever , Jews or Gentiles , are now counted for his seed , and stand holy branches to that holy root Abraham , and the holy lump to him , who was ( as it were ) a certain first fruits unto God of the whole body of believers , and chosen of God to be a father of the faithful , and a holy root for ever to all persons that in after ages should believe , to which honor he was also sealed by circumcision . The true visible Church then , of olive-tree , in which there 's fatness and fulness ( as David saith I shall be filled with the fatness of thy house ) is counted his family to the end , in which there 's now no right of admittance , or continuance ( as of old ) for his own fleshly seed , the very Iews , that were an holy seed before the time of faith came , much less for any other mans natural seed without faith , but for those onely even those individual persons that do believe . There 's no room by right for any else in the house of Abraham the Gospel-church , whose members are born unto it not of flesh , but of faith , not by being of Abraham himself , but as Abraham himself was , not by being of believers after the flesh , but by being believers with them . In the Allegory , while Isaac the typical promised seed was only in the word of promise , and not in actual being Ishmael dwelt in the house , but soon after he came into the world Ishmael must abide in the house no longer , so while Christ the true Isaac , typified by the other , to whom the Gospel promises were made , was but barely in the promise , the fleshly Israel vaunted it in the Church , but when the fulnesse of time was come for him to be incarnate , and in esse reali , that fleshly holy seed , much more the fleshly seed of believing Gentiles could have no right of residence in the family of Abraham , nor are any ( saving believers ) allowed members thereof to this very day . Babist . But it seems to be the Iews themselves , even the naturall seed of Abraham , to which in that Rom. 11.19 . Abraham is said by Paul to stand a holy root , if it be considered with reference to the verse before , where he speaks plainly of them , as in contradistinction to believieng Gentiles , therefore Abrahams own fleshly seed , are holy branches still of that holy root . Baptist. In no wise as they are his natural seed onely , but as they may hereafter be hoped to become his seed by faith also , and be grafted again upon their root Abraham , and their own olive tree , i. e. the visible Church , their fathers family , by believing and imbracing the Gospel , from which they were broken off through unbelief ; in which if they abide not still they shall ( saith he verse 23. ) be grafted in again ; but never simply as they are his natural seed onely . Abraham may be said to stand a holy root to his own bodily issue two wayes , first onely as they were born of his body by Isaac and Iacob , with whom ▪ and whose seed that typically holy Covenant was established , which being now vanisht away , he is no longer such a holy root to those natural branches of his body as that they have any birth holiness now therefrom . Secondly , as the same persons that were his natural seed might also be his spiri-seed by faith in Christ , and so he is here said to be a holy root , and the Jews in reference to him holy branches , viz. in respect not to their fleshly birth of him ( for as they are his natural branches onely , and no more they are broken off ) but in respect to their future calling to the faith , and receiving in again in time to come , upon account of their owning of the Gospel : the spiritual branches onely are now grafted into the olive-tree , and growing up upon the root , the natural branches are broken off , and the root as a holy root to them withered , that holiness of it faded , it is alive as a holy root now to none but the believer , not its own natural branches , muchlesse to the natural branches of believing Gentiles . Babist . When the Iews were broken off their naturall children were broken off with them , therefore when the believing Gentiles were graf●ed in their stead their naturall children must in like manner be grafted in with them . 〈◊〉 . No such matter Sirs , there 's either no good Antecedent or else no good Consequence in this : for first , if you mean as to the Gospel , Church and Covenant , the children of the unbelieving Jews are not so broken off , and excluded with their parents , in such a sence as you imagine , i. e. upon the Account of their parents unbelief onely , but for want of faith in their own persons , and as succeeding their fathers in unbelief , for if any children of the unbelieving Jews , when they come to years ( and children when at years are the naturall seed of their parents , I hope as well as in infancy it self , if being the children of such or such parents alone would either ingraft or exclude ) if I say unbelieving Iews children do believe , the promise is so made to them , that their parents unbelief cannot exclude them , but if the children at years do not believe , the promise is so little made to believers , and their seed as that the parents belief availes no further then to the engrafting of himself , and he cannot at all entitle all his natural seed by his single faith , nor as heirs of the same heavenly inheritance with him , inright them to the ordinance in token of it : but if you mean as to the old Church and Covenant then Secondly , it follows no more then if you should go about to make a way for the needle by the thred , that because the Iews and their seed under the law were taken in , and thrown out of Covenant altogether , so the Gentiles under the Gospel and their seed must be owned , and disowned thus collectiv●ly ; for as to that old Covenant of the law , made with the fleshly Israel concerning the earthly Canaan , the very promise of that was made to the whole body of that nation and people , that came of Abraham Isaac and Iacobs loins , in such a manner as that their infants were by very naturall descent according to the promise , as t●u●y and fully heirs of it as themselves , from which consequently , when once God took his advantage , by the breach first made on their part , to break it on his part also , he must necessarily turn them all out together , and so he did , discovenanting the whole nation at once , and as it is said in Zach. 11.10 . breaking the Covenant , which he had made with all the people , discarding and disinheriting them from all that glory in the lump ; but the Gospel-Covenant , and promise concerning the heavenly inheritance is not at all on this wise , but of a different nature , taking in no whole nation in the world , nor any one or more mens meer natural seed , no not Abrahams , Isaacs , and Iacobs ( as the other did ) to all generations of its continuance , but rather Sigillatim ) such several persons out of every nation , tongue , kindred and people that fear God , and work righteousness Rev. 5.9 . Act. 10.34 , 35. even all , and onely such as obey him : Singulos generum credentes , not genera singulorum credentium , vel non . If therefore you speak of the Jews standing upon the Root Abraham , and in the Church before Christ , upon the old Covenant account , then I confess that the whole body of them were broken off altogether , and that as they , and their fleshly seed were all incovenanted , so they were all discovenanted at once , when that covenant of circumcision , which God gave to Abraham , and his fleshly seed Gen. 17. concerning the land of Canaan was it self abolished in Christ crucified ; but then the consequence will not hold from that covenant to this of the Gospel ; these being two distinct and different covenants , the terms of standing in which are in no wise the same . But if you speak of the covenant of the Gospel , then your Antecedent is false , for I deny utterly that the Jews and their seed were altogether alienated from that , further then every individual of them did cut themselves off from a right of standing therein by want of faith in their own persons , for as this covenant was never made with any men , and their meer fleshly seed , no not with Abraham , Isaac and Iacob , and their natural posterity , so that a bare birth of their bodies doth ipso facto make them heirs of the heavenly inheritance promised therein ; nor give them a right ( as such only ) to be signed as true heirs thereof , but only with Abraham and his spiritual seed , i. e. Christ and all believers in him ; so no men and all their naturall posterity are outed from it together , but as both they , and their posterity do stand together in unbelief upon which account faith being the only way of standing heirs under the Gospel , and the Iews Children proving unbelievers in all ages as well as their parents , I confess they are broken off together , and not otherwise , for if the Children of the Iews did appear to have faith ( as in infancy they cannot , and when they are grown up unversally they do not ) their parents infidelity could in no wise prohibit their standing ; and since neither in infancy , nor at age they appear to be in the faith , their parents in case they were never so faithful can in no wise intitle them to a standing , for then the natural seed of those thousands of Iews which did believe in the Primitive times , have a birth-priviledge , and holiness to this day , whereupon they may claim admittance unto baptism , as well as any , specially if those words Rom. 11.16 . if the Root be holy so are the branches , were to be taken in such a sense as you put upon them , but we know that though they are branches growing naturally upon that holy Root as you call it , of believing parents , yet they are counted unholy by your selves , because they believe not in their own persons , yea if we should ask how the children of those Iews , that at first believed , did come to be such strangers to the Gospel Church , your selves would answer vs because they believed not , as their parents did , by which you do no less than grant what we contend for , viz. that the faith of Ancestors gives no right to their posterity to stand at all in the Gospel Church , and Covenant , but faith in the particular persons only so standing . Well then they were broken off : but why ? not because they had not believing parents , for Abraham was the fleshly Father of all of them , and the primitive believing Iews were the fleshly fathers of many of them , and are to this day as much as ever , if bare birth priviledge could ingraft them as it did of old in the family of the Iewish Church : Nor was it because they wanted title upon which they might have stood still in the Iewish Church , if that Church it self had stood to this day , for they were Abrahams seed , and that gave them capacity enough to dwell in the house before , their own unbelief notwithstanding ; but because they do not believe themselves , because the terms of standing in the Church which before Christ were these , viz. We have Abraham to our Father , we are the Children of such , and such parents , are now quite changed , so that it boots not to say such a thing as Abraham is our father , Mat. 3. unless we can also say we repent , and believe the Gospel . The Jews were broken off by unbelief , and thou and thine ( o believing Gentile ) must stand by faith , yet not thine by thy faith , but thou thy self by thine , and they by their own ; faith is that in which thou standing , and not thy seed , thou hast right to stand in the Church , and not they , in which they standing , and not thy self , they have right to stand in the Church , and thou hast none . Perpetuity in personall faith gives perpetual personal right to baptism , and to Church-membership , but not a perpetuity of the same right to any mans whole posterity ; there 's now no difference made at all as to Gospel interest , by being either this or that by nature , but in all the world any person Jew or Gentile , male or Female seed of believer or of unbeliever , Barbarian , Scythian , bond or free , is capable both to be saved , and signed as an heir of salvation by baptism upon personal faith , but in no wise the progeny upon the faith of the parentage . And yet to put it more out of doubt , that the Covenant holiness , and church-right of mens fleshly seed , which was of old , is not continuing under the Gospel , but Ceremonial and so ended in Christ , in whom your selves say Iudicialia sunt Mortua , Ceremonialia Mortifera , I will leave two or three consequences upon the file , which either answer and that not invitâ Minervâ , nor stretching your Genius beyond sense and reason , rather than want somewhat whereby to prove your Iudaizing to be judicious , or else by silence say you cannot : I leave you to consult with them as you see occasion . That holiness which sanctified the Iewes Land , City , Temple , Altar , all its untensils , Priest-hood , and the whole body of that people , and all the pertinences of the first tabernacle , and old Covenant was Ceremonial only , and is now abolished , and not abiding among believing Gentiles . But that holiness , that sanctified the Iewish seed , was the same , and no other then that , which sanctified their Land , City , Temple , Altar , and its Utensils , Priest-hood , and whole people and all the appertenances of that first Tabernacle , and old Covenant . Ergo , That holiness , which sanctified the Iewish seed , is now abolished , and not abiding at all among believing Gentiles . As for the Major I would wish you not to subject your selves so much to suspicion of superstition ( as you will do in these daies of light by putting me to prove it ) as to require proof on 't , since no intelligent man , or religious Christian ( save the Pope and Dr. Featley , and the rest of their several fryes , and fraternities ) will deny it h or did ever in the daies of the Gospel attribute the same holiness to outward , and inanimate things viz. places , Lands , profits , Emolluments , first fruits , Tithes , Oblations , and other obventions , Temples , Altars , Tables , Lavers , Chalices , Vestiments , nor yet to Priests , and people that all these were denominated holy by under the Law , for to me by the same reason that first fruits , tythes , and such like are now to be called holy , the first born of every creature both of man and beast is still to be called holy also , for even these were sanctifyed and holy Denominativè , and Dedicativè , as much as any of the rest Ezod . 13.2 . yea as Paul did in another case viz. appeal to the Pharisees to judge between him and the Sadduces , so may I to you of the Presbyterian Priesthood to decide this matter between me and the Seducers of the Popish and Prelatick strain , whose holy sandalls , copes , surplices , and other superfluities , viz. railes , high Altars , holy Tapers , and Candlesticks , holy Fonts , holy Windows you your selves pulld down , and prophaned , before that part of the wheele where the Baptists dwell , did at all appear so plainly ( as now it doth ) in the Horizon , of this English Nation , for which sort of sacriledge D● Featley ( much mistaking you , and being half afraid that you had been Anabaptists , when ( God wot ) you are so far from Rebaptization , that you neither do baptize , nor ever were so much as once truly baptized your selves ) cries out against you , who were in truth the men , that first began to digrade , and divest all those holy trinkets of that denomination of holiness , wherewith they had invested them , and that with a most hideous out-cry , saying pa. 181. of his book thus , What evil their disciples , mingled with the Brownists , have done in the Sanctuaries of God in England , and Ireland , though I should hold my peace , the timber out of the beams , and the Chalices out of the vestry , and the Marble , and brass out of the Monuments of the dead , would proclaim it to the Everlasting infamy of this prophane sect . You then being together by the ears so much among your selves about this question , viz. whether Temples , Vestments , Altars , Fonts , and Monuments , and other Steeple house stuff , and Temple trumpery , which was in the Bishops times , be holy yea or no with that Relative holiness ( as D Featley calls it ) wherwith the holy places , and Temple furniture of the Jewes was holy , I might safely slink away here , and leave you Presbyters to tugg it out with your Fathers the Bishops , who have indeed already drawn that controversy so neer to an end , as to determine all the holy things , and well nigh all the holiness they had out of doors . Yet that you may know I own and honor you so far , as freely to side with you , so far as you are willing to reform indeed , and renounce Rome , and her Religion ( but Alas Sirs that is not fully yet , for notwithstanding the covenants whereby you have sworn both me , and your selves to extirpate to your power all popery , superstition , Idolatry , and meer mens inventions , yet Oh what Remnants of Romish rubbish , viz. national Churches , popish parochial postures , popish payments , and profits , old tricks of trotting after tythes , more then truth , and seeking to benefice your selves well , rather then to benefit the people , do yet abide unabolished among you ) yet so far ( I say ) as you do reform , I am willing to go along with you , and therefore will lend you my hand so farr as to sling one stone after all that Canaanitish holiness , wherewith the Pope and his Clergy hath consecrated and christened not only all the babes born in Christendome , but also the very bells , and other bawbles belonging to the several sanctuaries , with the name of HOLINES to the Lord , as far as t is possible to keep it out from creeping into England any more , and that shall be an Argument from the meer typicallness of all that Dedicative holiness , that was once resident in the Iewish Church , and every thing almost that pertained thereunto , the like to which D● Featley feigns to be now in the Christian nations ; and thus I frame it . All that holiness , which was but typical , was but temporal or ceremoniall and so to be abolished under the Gospel . But all that holiness whereby the Iewes land , City , Temple , Altar , Priesthood , people , first fruits , profits , and all the appertenance ; of that first Tabernacle , were denominated holy , was but meerly typicall , and figurative of a future holiness , that was to come in more fully under the new Covenant , second tabernacle or Church under the Gospel . Ergo , all that holyness , wherewith the Iewes land , City , Temple , & i. was holy , was but temporal , or ceremonial , and so to be abolished under the Gospel . The first Proposition needs no proof , for your selves deny not but that all things under the law that were but types of things to come , were terminated and taken clean away , when the truth , or things typified thereby did come in under Christ. The Minor is no less cleer then the other , for the Law had but the shadow of things to come , not the very Image of the things Heb , 10.1 . it had but the patterns of holy things in the heavens , not the holy or heavenly things themselves , those holy places made with hands , and all the holy furniture thereunto pertaining , were but figures of the true holy place , i. e. heaven it self , into which our high-priest is gone , there to appear in the presence God for us , Heb. 9.23.24 . yea read through the 8th . 9th . 10th . chapters to the Hebrews and you shall find that all things under the law did but serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things , and were but as it it were a figure for the time then being , imposed on the Iewes untill the time of Reformation i. e. till Christ came . Now as to the Minor in the Prosyllogism , which is this viz. that the holinesse which fanctified the Jews seed , was the same , and no other then that which sanctified all the other appertenances of that Covenant , t is but a folly for me to offer to prove it , sith Mr. Blake himself ( the man that most earnestly pleads the present being of that same holinesse in believers seed as in the Iews seed of old ) doth little less then clearly confess it , in the 3 and 4 page of his birth-priviledge , where he writes thus , viz. common things dedicated for holy service , and use are holy , a people by nature sinners , dedicated to the Lord , are for holy use and service of the Lord , when others are for the service of Idols , therefore Ierusalem a City , none of the holiest for any transcendent holiness of the Inhabitants thereof , is yet called by the Evangelist the holy City , by reason of the Temple , and worship there that were holy and from thence ( saith he ) this observation follows , A people that enjoy Gods ordinances convey to their issue a priviledge to be reputed of a society that is holy , to be numbered amongst , not unclean , but holy persons , in proof of which observation among other things he saies thus , viz. The land of their habitation where they dwelt and injoyed this peculiar priviledge is ordinarily stiled the Holy Land , being the land of Emanuel , and the language there spoke the holy language , being a mark to discern the people of God , the distinguishing and discrimminating Epithite given to them was still holy , even all of this root who were branches of Abraham , Isaac , Iacob , all of this lump whereof Abraham , Isaac , Iacob were the first fruits , they peculiarly had this honor to receive , &c. and that in infancy , &c. distinction from all others . All which words of his ( collectively considered ) must needs bear such a sense as this , viz. That as the things that were else wise common , were holy things , and in such sort as the City Ierusalem was a holy City , their Temple a holy place , their service , which we know stood mainly in offering of gifts and sacrifices , meats drinks , divers washings and carnal ordinances for that time onely , a holy service , their land of Canaan , it self a holy land , their language a holy language , and in a manner every thing of theirs was discriminated by the term holy , from what ever was then counted common and unclean among the Gentiles , in such sort that people were a holy people , and their issue reputed , not an unclean but a holy seed . If this be his sense , then me thinks its a very sensless thing for him to affirm that same holinesse to be removed from all other things , that were the subjects then denominated by it , and to remain onely in people and their seed ; but if he deny this to be his sense in those recited words of his , I think he must either crack his conscience to evade the disadvantage that accrues to his cause by owning it , or else grant that he was not sensible of what he wrote , for I see not how he can shuffle those sentences into any other sense : And as he , so Mr. Baxter that backs him in his opinion of birth-priviledge sayes the same , and confesses p. 81. of his book that the common nature of holiness is one and the same in all these , viz. Priests and Levites , Temple , Altar , Sacrifices under the law , and in the children of believers and their unbelieving yoke-fellows spoken of 1 Cor 7.14 . i. e. a separation to God , for so saith he there , i. e. in such sense as the Priests , Levites , Temple , Altar , Sacrifice , &c. were sanctified , both children of believers , and also unbelieving yoke-fellows are here said to be holy and sanctified . It being then in both Mr. Blakes and Mr. Baxters own account one and the same holinesse , whereby as well the seed as the land , people , Priests , sanctuary and service were all denominated and distinguished as holy , which surely was no other then a meer ceremoniall holiness , it s but folly for me to say more in proof of this , that it was the same : nevertheless forasmuch as here is the very foundation of all your falsity and confusion , in that you either do not , or else will not discern a difference between the time of the law , and the Gospel ( for distingue tempora , et reconciliabis scripturas ) and for that also I am jealous over you with a godly jealously , that I may espouse you , who are yet a treacherous and adulterous , as a chast ministry unto Christ , would to God you could bear with me in my folly , and indeed bear with me if I yet insist a little further to shew the sameness of that holinesse , that was then in the Iews land , sanctuary , service , &c. and in their fleshly seed , which that it may yet more plainly appear , I beseech you let it be considered , that ( as your selves grant that the holiness whereby the seed was then said to be holy was , not real and inherent , but meerly dedicative , relative , denominative , i. e. titular , i and discriminative , k so indeed it was but typical , and consequently but temporal as all th● rest was , for in such wise as their Temple was but tipical of the Gospel Churches ( I mean not steeple houses , but congregated and truly constituted Assemblies of people , 1 Cor. 3.17 . Eph. 2.21 , 22. 1. Pet. 2.5 . ) And as that nation and people in their holiness , and all other particulars was tipicall of the Saints , where ever locally scattered , yet mistically imbodied , and no● of Christian nations collectively taken , and as their holy land and kingdom flowing with milk and hony was typicall of the heavenly Canaan , and kingdome flowing with rivers of pleasures , and their holy City of that holy City new Ierusalem that is to come down from God , Rev. 21. and their holy high priest-hood of our holy , harmless , undefiled high-priest Christ Iesus , and their holy priest-hood of all the elect of God , sanctified and anointed , not with material holy oyle , but the holy spirit it self , or holy unction to be a holy priest-hood , to offer spiritual sacrifice , 1. Pet. 2.5 . and as their holy Altar and Sacrifices was a type pointing out our Altar Christ , that immacculate lamb offered without spot to God , where of Paul saies they have no right to eat that serve the tabernacle , Heb. 13.10 , ( by which saying of Paul in that place you may by the way if you be not stocks and stones take notice thus far of your selves , that the same holy persons that by that holiness had a real right to be , not onely in the neerest service , but highest office also in that Church of the Jews cannot possibly upon the meer account of that holinesse , plead a right to participate of Gospel-priviledges , and if the holiness of the priests , which was superiour in degree , though the same in kind with that of the people , and seed , by which they were priviledged with so high a standing in that Church , could not inright them of it self , unless they were obedient to the faith also , to membership and communion with gospel-fellowships , in gospel injoyments , shall we suppose the bare birth-holiness that was in the Jews seed ( if it were now as truly in the fleshly seed of believing Gentiles , as t is certain there 's no such matter ) can entitle , and give right to enter and partake of Gospel-priviledges , without more ado ? be asham'd Sirs to assert it ) and lastly as all that holinesse of the old Testament and tabernacle , and things thereunto belonging was no more then a type for the time then being , of the New Testament and Tabernacle and holy things thereof , so even that fleshly seed of Abraham , and that birth-priviledge and Covenant-holinesse , which they then had , yea that law of infants Church-membership and Circumcision , which Mr. Baxter p. 59. of his book will at no hand yield to be but typical and ceremonial , or to have any anti-type that succeeds it , was as meerly typical and ceremonial as all the holinesse , that was in the other subjects , viz. the holy persons and things above named ; and sith he there challenges us to shew what it was a type of , and prove it to be so if we can , as simple as he seems to make himself in this matter , I dare be bold to tell him that there was not any one thing under the Law , or in that whole Church of the Jews , which ( though this will not down with him ) was all but a Ceremony , but 〈◊〉 was a more lively type in reference to its Anti-type , that this Infant-birth-priviledge , birth-holiness , and that Law of Infant-Church-membership and circumcision were ; for verily as that fleshly seed of Abraham , Isaac , and Iacob were reputatively holy , and were by Covenant and special promise from God , heirs by that bare fleshly birth with Abraham , Isaac and Iacob of that Earthly Canaan , together with all the glory , priviledges , immunities , rest , riches and bodily blessings of that earthly inheritance , and in token of their true title thereunto ( as so born ) were circumcised in the flesh ; so Anti-typically all the faithful seed of Abraham , i. e. true believers in Christ , and these only , ate that truly holy seed , which by the Gospel-covenant and promise , are and shall be heirs with Abraham of the heavenly Kingdome or Canaan , together with all the priviledges , liberties , dignities , and blessings of that eternal , glorious and incorruptible inheritance reserved for him and them , and to be revealed and brought to them at the next comming of Iesus Christ , in token whereof they are not only outwardly baptized in water , immediately after they are thus born , and become the Children of Abraham by faith , but also circumcised in the heart with the circumcision made without hands ; i. e. inwardly sanctified by the spirit of God , mortyfying , crucifying , cutting off , and casting out the fleshlie superfluities thereof , Col. 2.11 . All which as its proved abundantly in each particular thereof in several other Scriptures ( as Rom. 4.13.14 . Heb. 8.6 . Rom. 9.7.8 . Gal. 3.7.9.26.27.28.29 . ) so is it verie plainly and summarily shewed in Heb. 9.23.10.1 . where the Law of the old Covenant is said to be , with all the holy things thereof but onely patterns of things in the heavens , figures of the true , and to have only a shadow of the good things to come , and not the verie substance of the things themselves , the Covenant-holiness therefore and birth-priviledge which was then in the Jewes fleshly seed , with whom that Covenant was made , was ( as all other things then were ) but typicall , and consequently but ceremonial and temporal , I mean abiding onely till the time of the Gospel : And since your selves acknowledge that what was but typicall of old is now vanished , I marvel that you should so much forget your selves , as to renounce the same holiness that was then in all other things , and retain it still as standing in the seed , and you hold it to be removed from Abrahams own fleshly seed too , and subjected onely in the fleshly seed of believing Gentiles , you fight against the owning of any of that kind of holinesse that of old was ( I mean you Priests of the Presbyterian party , for the Bishops and D● . Featley fight against it in the Pope , and yet hold it themselves to be where you own it not ) in Temple , Copes , Surplices , Altars , Fonts , Chalices , and such holy Church-geer , as Christs Church in London , in Oxford , in Cambridge , in Canterbury did once supera bound with , but neither Christs Church in Rome till corrupted , nor Christs Church in Corinth , nor Ephesus , nor Philippi , nor any of the rest of the Churches in the primitive times ever did , nor any of Christs true Churches in these latter times ever will place holiness in any more ; I say you are against all that relative Jewish , ceremonial holiness , and abide not to hear of its abiding in any thing else , & yet abide not to hear any otherwise but that it abides still in that onely subject , i. e. the fleshly seed of enchurched parents . But Sirs , although in most things I must needs preferre the worst of you two P Priest-hoods of the Prelatick and Presbyterian posture , yet ( to give the Devil his due ) in this one thing I cannot but commend the Pope and his Priesthood beyond you both , in that since you will all needs Iudaize more or lesse , and regulate your Gospel service by that of the Law , they Judaize more judiciously and more ingenuously than either of you , two PP that pluck him to pieces for it , for thou English Scottish Angel are neither hot nor cold , neither gospel , nor law , neither wholy Romish , nor rightly reformed , but retaining a little of one , and a little of the other , and lying in a Lukewarm temper , between them both , for which God will spue you out of his mouth as well as them : but as for the other they are not lukewarm , but I bear them record they have ( as the Jewes also had since the Gospel came in ) a zeal of the Law , but not according to knowledge , yea they are zealous of the holyness of that Covenant more , and more compleatly , then either of you : for they plead not only for the holiness of their fleshly seed , as P. nor only a holiness in Temples , Altars , Fonts , Vestmen●s , Vessels , &c. as P. but for a holiness well-nigh in all those things , and more too , than ever were denominated holy under the Law , in which supererrogating , I must needs uncommend them again as far worse then you , yea they say downrightly to the people , that except it be after the manner of Moses in all things almost , Iudicial and Ceremoniall ( only Moralls they are a litle more moderate in observing , and can better bear an absolute abrogation of ) viz. one Holy High-Priest to procure attonement , aliâs , sell indulgencies and pardons , whose supremacy must be owned , and he answerably adorned with holy Mitre and Crown , Purple , Scarlet , fine Linnen , Chaines of Gold ; also if there be ●ot holy Altars , Tapers , Lavers , holy Water , Offerings , first fruits , fine flower , Wine and Oile , Salt , Cream , Spittle , &c. holy Fasts , as Lent , Wednesdaies , Fridaies , holy Feast-daies , in memorial of such Saints as the Pope eanonizeth ( which are more by far then there are daies in the year ) holy Pictures and Images , holy Warrs , holy Pilgrimages , holy Clouts , holy Rags , holy Reliques , holy Bells , holy Chanteries , holy Churchyards , of which they say Pueri s●cer est Locus extra Mejete , holy persons devoted to service , viz. holy Votaries , holy Monks , holy Friers , holy Nunns & sic de ceteris , from the Vniversal Vicar to the holy singing men and pipers , and the rest of that rabble , which are the very vermine of Christendome ; yea if they observe not all the holy Statutes , and ordinances which his Holiness their Lord God the Pope commands them , especially if they seperate from the holy Catholike Church of his constituting they cannot be saved ; Thus they clean outstrip you , if pleading for relative , dedicative holiness , and consecration of persons , places , and times , be as proper under the Gospel as under the Law , and are so zealous of that kind of holiness , that in zeal thereof they will have all to be Holiness to the Lord , till they come to be as wicked , and prophane as the very devil himself can well desire they should be . Si aliquando quare non nunc ? ( saies the Pope ) when you question him for his Dedicative holiness , if so once why not now ? If under the Law , why not under the Gospel ? the same phrase you commonly bespeak us in when we demand a reason why you fancy such a birth-holiness in your fleshly seed ; in return to which against such time as you shall satisfy us so slenderly in this case , so as to say Si aliquando quare non nunc ? arguing from the manner of things under Moses , that thus or thus they ought to be under Christ , and deriving a holiness from that of the Jews fleshly seed , to the fleshly seed of believing Gentiles under the Gospel , I leave this double question upon record . First , Si aliquid quare non quicquid ? If you will have any thing holy with that Ceremonial holiness now , why not every thing that then was so ? Secondly , Si aliqualitèr , quarè non aequalitèr ? if you will needs Iudaize at all , why not in all as well as the Pope ? though where he doth all , and more too he shall at last have no thanks for his labor . The next and last argument whereby I shall prove that typical holiness of Abrahams fleshly seed , as well as of all the other subjects denominated , and distinguished by it under the Law to be but Ceremonial , and now nullified under the Gospel , is this . 3 That holiness whose contrarily opposite commonness , sin , and uncleanness wa● but meerly ceremonial , and is now utterly ended , and abolished , must necessarily be but ceremoniall , and now abolished also . But that holiness , which successively through all generations ( for the time then being ) did denominate , and distinguish the Iewes , and their prog●●y from all people , and their seed as holy , is a holiness whose con●rarily opposite , commonnesse , sin , and uncleanness was but Ceremonial , and is now abolished . Ergo , That holiness which did distinguish the Iews and their natural progeny ( as holy ) from all other people and their seed was but ceremoniall and is now utterly abolished also . The Major cannot possibly be denyed , for contrariorum eadem est ratio , contrariorum uno sublato tollitur alterum : of contraries take away one , and the other cannot remain in its opposition to it , any longer : as for example , the commonness , sinfulness , prophanness , uncleanness of some meats , flesh , birds , beasts , places , persons , and their natural seed above others being ended , the cleanness of some meats , flesh , birds , places , persons , and their natural seed above others m●st without controversie be at an end also : under the law , whilest there was more uncleanness , commonness , and prophanness in such and such meats , places , people , then in others , there must necessarily be by the Rule of contraries more holiness in these meats , places , people , then in those : but under the Gosspel there being no more uncleanness , commonness , or prophanness in these things , places , or persons above those , there must be consequently no more holiness in those than these : and so if there be no such bir●h holiness as was under the Law , there can be no such birth uncleanness as was under the Law : and if no one man in all the world is more sinfull , common and unclean then another by nature , no man can be more holy then another by nature , with the holiness directly opposite to that uncleanness , but all men must now be all alike by nature or fleshly birth . And now as to the Minor , viz. that the commonness , sinfulness , prophanness , or uncleanness of some mens fleshly seed above others , oppositely answering to the holiness with which the Iewes seed was then holy above others , is totally destroyed , as well as all that uncleanness , and the holiness contrary thereunto , that was then in some meats , and flesh of birds and beasts above others is evidently proved to be a truth to any which will impartially consult and compare these three scriptures each with other ( viz. Act. 10. v. 11.12.13.14.15.28 Act. 11.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9 . also Gal. 2.11.12.13.14.15.16.17.18 . in all which if you be not either so blind that you cannot , or so obstinate that you will not see , you cannot avoid the sight of this very thing , viz. that not only the Commonness , and uncleanness that was once in some meats , and flesh of birds and beasts forbidden as abominable to be eaten , under the Law , but also the commonness and uncleanness that was in some people , and their seed more then in others , even that sin and uncleannesse of the Gentiles by nature in respect of the Jews , who were then forbidden to eat with them , as a thing for them unlawful and abominable , is not at all in being now under the Gospel , but quite abolished and consequently the birth holiness directly opposite to it abolisht also ; which holiness yet , that was as then in the Iews by birth , and nature M Blake is not ashamed to scrue his wits to prove a translation of from the Iews seed now , to the seed of believing Gentiles under the Gospel , and that from the last of these Scriptures , viz. Gall. 2. verse 15. then which , I testifie , no Scripture doth more clearely confute him . As to those Scriptures cited out of Act. 10. and Act. 11. these things are well worthy your observation in them first that Peter ( though under the Gospel ) stood yet opinioned ( God having not till now discovered the contrary to him ) according to the Law that such meats as were then forbidden to be eaten , and such people as were not Jewes by nature , but by nature sinners of the Gentiles , were unholy , unlawfull , unclean and abominable for him that was a Jew , so much as to eat , or eat with still . Secondly , that God did not shew unto Peter in that vision any such thing as Mr. Blake dreams and seems to himself to have the vision of viz. that he had now translated that old commonness and uncleannesse that was once in the Gentiles by nature , and stated it now upon such as are Iews by nature , and such as are by nature descended from unbelieving parents , and contrary wise translated and stated the birth-holiness that was once among the Iews by nature , because they now believe not , upon such Gentiles by nature , as are born of believing parents ; for no more then Gentiles by nature can I call them still , for all their parents faith , not Christians or Saints by nature ( as Mr , Blake frivolously fancies them to be ) that are descended from Christian parents after the flesh onely ; for howbeit the fleshly seed of the Iews are Iews still , both naturâ , nomine et natione , yet the meer fleshly seed of Christians and Saints , are not Christians and Saints at the same rates in Gods-account ( how ever they are in the Popes and his ) any more then the meer fleshly seed of believers are by birth , nature , name and nation believers as much as their parents , which that they are Mr. Blake himself , will not surely be so shameless as to assert : and though he tells us a trifling tale , that the name of Christian would not long hold in any family , or among any people if it be not so , that as Iews are Iews by birth , so Christians are Christians , p. 6. yet I tell him again 't is no great matter whether it do or no , yea 't is not onely worth nothing , but worse then nothing to have the meer name and title of Christian , communicated and derived from parents to children , from generation to generation without the nature , for that 's the main mischief that hath overspread all Christendom , and fill'd it with a thousand Antichristians to one true Christian indeed . Secondly , as simply as he saith God provideth for a continuance in succession of that name from age to age , yet I know no such provision that God hath made in his word for any such thing , as the continuance of the meer name of Christian in one family or nation , by any such birth-priviledge or propagation thereof from Christians to their meer natural posterity , but all the provision that hath been made in this behalf hath been made by the Pope and his priesthood . Yea if God himself had took order for any such matter , then me thinks the name Christian should have been continued to this day among the posterity of that Gospel Church of the Hebrews , i. e. those many thousands of Iews , which in the primitive times turned Christians , yea then so many thousands of the Iews , which then believed , and became Christians Act. 21.20 might have multiplied as easily by this time into one Christian nation at least , by the pastoral power , improvement , and sanctity of Saint Simon Peter , as the Church of Rome , i. e. those few Gentiles , which at first believed there , did at last by the pollitick power , improvement and subtilty of Sir Simon the Pope , his supposed successour increase and multiply into so many . And as God did not shew unto Peter in the forenamed place , that he had now removed that birth priuiledge , and old Covenant holinesse from the Iews by nature , to the natural seed of believing Gentiles , so Thirdly , he shewed him point blank that he had now quite abolished , and put an end to that old outward carnal , legal , ceremonial account of things , and persons as holy and unclean , so that now as no meats , nor flesh of birds and beasts should be counted common or unclean , in relation to other , as aforetime , so no men now or flesh of men however born , should by meer fleshly birth of such parents , though unbelieving Gentiles , be counted common or unclean in relation to others , whether Iews by nature , or believing Christians natural seed , as more holy by birth then they , for being cavill'd with by them of the circumcision i. e. the birth priviledged Iews , for eating things common and unclean , and for associating himself with men uncircumcised , common or unclean ( for so both the Gentiles or uncircumcision in the flesh , and many meats eaten by them , and prohibited to be eaten by the Iews are call'd and accounted under the law ) he tells them chap. 11. that he was at first as scrupulous of the thing as themselves , till a voice from God declared to him that he must not now call any thing common or unclean , that was so before , in respect to other , as more holy then it in the sense of the law , because whatever was then common or unclean in such a sense , God had now cleansed i. e. destroyed that denomination and distinction that was between it , and what answerably to it was wont to be called holy : And that these discriminating terms of holinesse and uncleannesse are as much abolished in all people and their fleshly seed as in all other flesh of birds and beasts appears undeniably chapter 10.28 . where he tells Cornelius the very same as concerning men , who aforetime were by birth common or unclean , that he tells them of the circumcision as concerning other creatures which aforetime were called common or unclean . Ye know ( saith he ) that t is an unlawful thing ( meaning according to the will of God under the law ) for a man that is a Iew to keep company , or come unto one of another nation ( for then indeed Iews by nature might not eat with such as were by nature sinners of the Gentiles ) but now God hath shewed me that I should not , ( meaning in these dayes of the Gospel ) call any man common or unclean : observe the words I beseech you , and consider them with reference to the vision it self , and that further exposition of it , which Peter himself makes in the 11. chapter , and the result thereof is no less then this , viz. That as there is now nothing , i. e. no meats , or flesh of birds or beasts , or other creatures more unclean , unholy , unlawful or abominable to be eaten then other , as some was under the law , so there is not now any man by birth , nature or nation unclean , in such sense as the Gentiles were of old in reference to the Iews , but that all men are alike now by birth , and none by nature more holy or unclean then other , in such wise as before , none by meer nature neerer to God or further off , more or less the people of God or accepted with him , further then by holinesse or unholinesse of life they are distinguisht . In further consideration of which v. 34.35 . Peter opened his mouth again and said thus , of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons , i. e. now he accepts not men of one nation above another , no not Iews by nature , more then those which heretofore , in relation to that birth-holiness the Iew had , were counted sinners of the Gentiles , nor any one man above another , as meerly descended of such a parent , but in every Nation he that feareth him , and worketh righteousness is accepted with him . Though therefore time was , when the natural seed of Jewish parents ( as meerly so born , though proving never so morally wicked , profane and unbelieving in their own persons ) were still accepted of God ( I mean in that outward ceremonial sense onely ) as his people , his peculiar chosen generation , his holy nation , above all nations of the earth , though ( as Mr. Blake saies truly ) none of the holiest for any transcendent manners of the inhabitants : yet when Christ came the hour came , and now is , wherein no fleshly birth or being of this or that nation or parentage or natural descent and condition doth invest one person or people with this birth-priviledge of acceptation before God as his people , or denomination of a holy people or seed more then others , the hour now is , wherein in meer infancy there 's no more distinction at all between persons as holy and unclean , wherein faith and not typical but true holiness , or holinesse of truth onely , Eph. 4 17 , 18.24 . makes the distinction between the Church of the Genliles , and other Gentiles ; wherein there 's no difference between Iews and Gentiles , and the children of both save according as they are called , and have hearts purified by faith , Act. 2.39.15.9 . wherein the righteousness and grace of God is unto all , and upon all alike without difference in time of infancy , and upon all alike that believe a like when they come to years , for there 's no difference , Rom. 3.22 . wherein there is neither Iew nor Greek , circumcision or uncircumcision , more unclean or holy by nature either then the other ( as of old ) but all alike accounted sinners or holy according as they live sinfully or holily , and not other wise . If then we may not call any man , of what blood , nation or parentage soever under the Gospel common or unclean , ( as God shewed Peter that he should not ) no not those who ( saving the abolishing of that unclaanness ) are as abominable by birth as the Gentiles were in the time of the law , then may we not call any man , however naturally descended , holy upon the same account of that his natural birth , in comparison of others . Whereupon though Christ called the Canaanites by nature , dogs in reference to the Iews , and their seed the children , while that birth-uncleanness or holinesse stood yet unabolished , Mat. 15.12.26 . after which example Mr. Blake takes such blind boldness to himself , as to imagine the new born infants of believers and unbelievers may respectively be so denominated still , yet he takes upon him much more then God ever gave Peter leave to do , or any man else in those dayes of the Gospel , if he now call any person by meer naturall birth more holy , common or unclean then other . T is not now fleshly birth , nor circumcision , nor uncircumcision in the flesh that discriminates men as Saints or sinners , children or dogs , holy or unclean , in Covenant with God or out , fit or unfit ( further then non-age unfits all alike for such a thing ) now to be of the visible Church , which is not now nationall neither as heretofore it was , for under the law this only made men communicable or incommunicable one with another , this was the cause why those of the circumcision cavilled with Peter till he satisfied them to the contrary , because he being a Iew by nature , and circumcised in the flesh went in to men uncircumcised , and did eat with them , Act. 11. from eating with whom he dissemblingly withdrew himself at another time , fearing them of the circumcision , Gal. 2. which way of discrimination of persons each from other as holy and unclean , fit or unfit for Church-communion each with other by meer fleshly birth and circumcision in the flesh , was but a type , the Antitype whereof is not this , viz that believers fleshly seed are holy , Saints , Gods people , Church-members by birth , and contrariwise unbelievers fleshly seed by nature dogs , swine , sinners , unclean in such sort as the seed of Iews and Gentiles were under the law ; but this rather and indeed viz. that believers themselves spiritually born by faith in Iesus Christ , circumcised in heart , doing Abrahams works , are now the children of Abraham , a peculiar people , a holy nation , neer and deer unto him , that must dwell in his house , and be fed and refresht with that bread , of which there 's abundance , and vnbelievers themselves , unholy ones in heart and life , never new born , nor become children to God and Abraham by faith in Christ , but remaining uncircumcised within , under the unclean lusts of the flesh , are those unclean ones , and sinners with whom communion is not to be held by the other in Church bodies , those dogs and swine to whom the childrens bread is not to be divided , nor holy things given even the holy ordinances of the Gospel , nor pearls cast i. e. the precious particularities of professed believers , viz. baptism and the supper thrown away upon them . Moreover as God shewed Peter by that vision Act. 10. that not any man now , no not a Gentile by nature may be called common or unclean any more then one that is a Jew by nature , so he shews him the same ore again , in a round reproof by the mouth of Paul Gal. 2.11 . to 19. where t is recorded how shamefully he separated from eating with the Gentiles for fear of offending the Jews , of whose cavils with him in this kind he had had some experience before , Act. 11. as if he had been opinion'd still according to the law , that such meats as were then unclean , and such people as were then sinners by nature , in reference to the then holy seed of the Iews had been no lesse then abomination still for him , or any Iew by nature to eat of , or eat with , and likewise how roundly he was dealt with by Paul , who minded him of that , which he knew well enough but was too willingly ignorant of at this time , viz. That these who were but a while since by nature holy , were now no holier by nature then Gentiles , that were then also called sinners of the Gentiles , but that as to that old account of ceremoniall uncleanness and holinesse , whereby they were distinguisht from the very womb before , they were now all alike by nature , viz. Iews no more holy then other men , and other men even Gentiles no more sinners by birth then they , all that partition wall of birth holinesse and uncleanness , propinquity and alienation that did once difference some men from other ab incunabilis being broken down , and themselves such as must look upon themselves as dead to that law , whereby they stood the children of God and Saints , and all other men sinners by fleshly birth , and under another law now even that of the Gospel , by which there is no other way of being holy and becoming so much as relatively onely , much lesse really the children of God , then that of faith in the Lord Iesus for the Iews themselves more then for any other : and therefore in case they now go about to build again the things that they had destroied ( meaning that fleshly birth holinesse which they had before disownd ) they should make themselves transgressors in so doing : this verily is the very sum , sense , and scope of that Scripture viz. to cry down all the old ceremonial distinctions of men by nature and Nation , to beat down all that old birth priviledge and preheminence of one person however descended above another , as to Gospel participation and communion : out of which yet Mr. Blake blindly takes his text , where upon to build again a certain birth holinesse in one mans fleshly seed above another , the very thing that Paul there declares rather to be abolished , most perversly propagating to the meer carnall s●ed of Christians that antient tipical and now ended holinesse of Iews by nature , who though the seed of believing Abraham himself , yet have none of it at all now themselves , nor yet whilst they had it could be admitted by Iohn to baptism , and gospel priviledges upon that onely account , and yet if it still remain as the thing intitling to ordinances both must have it , and a right also to baptism by it , specially if Mr. Blakes own tenet be true , that the ground of a childs admission to baptism is not the faith of his immediate parent onely , as he saies it is not p. 24. of his birth priviledge , but the promise made to believing Ancestors at a great distance ; for as he saith there that if Iosia have no right from his father Ammon , yet he is not to be shut out having right from his father Abraham , so say I Abraham being not onely the remote parent of Iosia , but of all the Iews that are born at this day also , if the Iews have no right now from their own immediate parents that in the primitive times , or more lately believed not the Gospel , yet may they have right , if right at all be to be had to Gospel priviledges from the parents faith at a distance ; from their remote fathers Abraham , Isaac and Iacob , whose believing of the Gospel , is as well worthy to intitle all their seed to this day to the Gospel promises , as the faith of any believing Gentiles onely . I cannot therefore but stand amazed in my mind to consider how miserably Mr. Blake mistakes himself in taking that text , from which to prove a present birth holinesse in the infants of believing Gentiles , which if there were no other to compare it with , doth sufficiently clear it of it self alone ; how much more if compared with those forecited out of Act. 10. Act. 11 that there is now no such holinesse and uncleannesse as was once between Iews by nature , and such as were then called sinners of the Gentiles : yea if that distinction of Iews by nature , and sinners of the Gentiles spoken of Gal. 2.15 . were now in being , & remaining unabolished , it would be so farre from establishing that indeed it would utterly overthrow what Mr. Blake pleads for from it , and instead of advancing the naturall seed of believing Gentiles so high in holinesse as he would have them to be by birth , debase them rather into a worse condition then I dare say any unbelieving Gentiles seed is in by birth ( as to such a kind of uncleanness as they once were denominated by ) in all the world ; specially if it be so as he himself saies p. 10. of his birth priviledge , viz. That the seed of believing Gentiles are now under one of those two heads in the text : For if that distinction be not now destroyed , and all men by birth come under one of those two denominations now ; under which of them I trow will Mr. Blake rank the infants of believing Gentiles ? he will not render himself so ridiculous sure as to say they are Iewes by nature , and therefore ( unless the distinction be totally taken away ) he must say they are by nature sinners of the Gentiles , which in the sense of the Law , is as if he should say Doggs , unholy , common , and unclean , and more then we our selves dare say of any now new-born infants under heaven , as in contra-distinction to other . If he say they are neither sinners of the Gentiles , nor Iews by nature neither , then either he must say they are some third thing , which if he do Mr. Blake himself will contradict Mr. Blake in that , for he asserts pag. 10. of his Birth priviledge that the seed of believing parents under the Gospel must be lookt upon under one member of this division in this text , and that the Apostles distinction and distribution is so full and compleat that a third cannot be assigned , or else he must grant that this distinction is now wholly ceased under the Gospel , which because t is the giving up of his whole cause he will be very loath to do , and therefore rather than do so ( then which yet , if he well understood what is best for him he could not do a better thing ) of the two he choses , to the utter contradiction of himself , to rank them under a third head , to assert them to be some third thing , namely a sort of carnal holy seed of his own , and the Clergies coining , a Relative holy seed of their own consecrating , a faederall holy seed of their own feigning , a holy seed hatcht in their own heads , which are neither fish , nor flesh , nor good red herring , nor sinners of the Gentiles , nor Iews by nature , nor Iews besides nature neither , i. e. by personal faith as all true Christians are , but quartum quoddam , a certain fourth thing , called Christians from their mothers womb , or ever they are so much as christen'd into the name , or discipled into the nature , and yet for all this a seed set forth in such a transcendent manner , as if all other were in comparison of them by very descent , p. 13. unclean , sinners , unholy , dogs , and filthy swine . 'T were enough to make a wise man wonder to see how superlatively Mr. Blake magnifies this seed of believing Gentiles , above the seed of all other men in the world , even above the fleshly seed of Abraham , Isaac , and Iacob themselves , who only , at least mainly ; had the promise of this priviledge of transmitting a Covenant holiness to their issue , and this but typically , and for a time neither , even till that seed should come , i. e. Christ and believers in him , to whom all , and only the Gospel promises were made . He calls them Children of God , and Saints by very nature , Little ones of Sion in reference to infants of Infidells , which with him are little ones of Babylon : and yet ( to go round again ) this Babilon ( in his own opinion ) is not the Infidells but Rome , a Church of Christians ( in name at least , as well as the Protestant nations ) and consequently ( to go round again ) in his own opinion such ( see pag. 26. ) as transmit a covenant-holiness into their seed , so far as ( in his own sense ) to make them little ones of Sion as well as the other : and yet for all this too ( to go round again ) though it be execration with him to hurt the little ones of Sion , i. e. in his sense the infants of such as are not infidels , but Christians in name , yet ( to go round again ) it is an happy thing to dash the little ones of Babylon i. e. in his sense infants of Papists who yet are Christians nomine tenus and not infidels , and consequently ( secundum se ) the Lords heritage and such as have Christs name upon them , and such as for a Turk to persecute were to be guilty with Saul of persecuting the Lord Jesus p. 30. ) against the walls p. 29. which little ones of both Syon and Babylon he is yet much mistaken in when all is done , in taking either of them for fleshly babes of what parents soever , Syons little ones in the true spiritual or gospel sense , being the Saints themselves onely , and not their fleshly babes as such , even the little ones Christ , Paul , Peter and Iohn speak of Mat. 10.42 . Gal. 4.19 . 1 Pet. 2.2 . 1 Iohn 2.1.12 , 13. And Babylons babes being no other then the C C Clergies adult disciples , or A A Antichristian C C Christian creatures . And ( to take notice a little more yet of Mr. Blakes high expressions of the birth holinesse , birth happinesse , birth mercy , birth dignity of meer nominal Christians fleshly seed , as they lie scattered up and down in p. 28.30.31.32.33 . and other pages of his book ) he calls them a seed in relation to God as well as their parents , [ and so indeed they may soon be , if he mean of such meer outside Christians as he doth ] the inheritance of God , the Saints and Servants of God , a holy seed , having a royall transcendency above all others , as onely worthy the name of a people , injoying the light , nigh unto God , a people of hope and expectation , children that have blisse , [ as if they were actually and inalterably already stated in it , and possest of it , and all other infants and people as inalterably designd and devoted universally to cursing and damnation , as having no Gospel at all belonging to them , no not that Gospel which is to be preached to every creature ] a seed by birth priviledge to be baptized , p. 27. [ which yet is more birth-priviledged then Abrahams [ own seed could have Mat. 3. even before their birth priviledge did perish from them ] such as have a large and full right to all the ordinances of God , and priviledges of the Church , appertaining to members , as they shall be capable of their use , by personall faith and good demeanor when at years , and grown up , [ and I wonder who hath not the like upon those terms ? even infants of infidels surely as well as they when at age , and whilst infants , they are no more capable of the use of any ordinance then the other . ] He tells us , these by birth are of the houshold of God , of the Citizens of the Saints [ t is much he said not fellow Citizens in Pauls phrase , Eph. 2. sure t was because he bethought himself of their uncapableness of fellowship , for all their membership ] He tells us that these are orderly admitted , i. e. by baptism then which Scripture knows no other admission , for no sooner do we read of a convert ( saith he ) but we presently hear of his baptism [ whereas of all the converts in Christendom that sit under the ministry of the Pope , Prelate and Presbyter , I never knew one in all my daies baptized after their coversion of him by preaching , till being converted from them to the Truth as it is in Iesus they convert and come to us , and then we immediately baptize them indeed ; but as for them , t is impossible for them so much as to preach the Gospel in all Christendome , in the way and words in which Peter , Ananias , Philip , Paul , and all the first and purest preachers did , while they suppose all they preach to to have been baptized in infancy ( for what Priest in Christendom can say to his parish repent and be baptized for remission of sinnes , arise and be baptized and wash away thy sinnes ; he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ( as they of old said , Mark 16.16 . Act. 22 : without gross absurdity having christn'd them all long before he ever preacht to them ? ) neither do they baptize any at all after conversion , and the best baptism they dispense in token of remission of sins ( so long before either sins commission , or the sinners conversion ) is at best but meer rantism neither . ] He tells us that those have right to all the immunities of this house , to all the priviledges of this City of God ( meaning the Church here below ) and have title to all Christs visible ordinances , that they belong to Christ , and therefore must par●ake of that which is of Christ , and being of the houshold they must therefore have of the food of the houshold , yea the stewards of the mysteries of God must be accountable in case they deny it them . [ And yet till they are at years not any one of them may participate ( as themselves say ) of any one of those visible ordinances , viz. neither praying , preaching , hearing , not the supper , nor any thing else which is the food of the houshold after baptism , by which they are barely entred in infancy , and onely thrown ore the threshold into the house , and then ly starving for many years together , without bit or crumb of any other food at all , being utterly denied to be communicants at the supper , the use of which their folly will once be manifest , who say they are lesse capable of in infancy then of the use of baptism , for ( as shall appear more hereafter ) howbeit they are truly capable of neither they are as truly capable of both as of either , yet are they deni'd a share in that service of the supper by these stewards of the mysteries of God , the ministry themselves , and that for no less then 16 years together at least , according to the rule of the old stewards the episcopacy , that have almost given up all their earthly account , and I know not for how long by the will of the new stewards i. e. the Presbytery , for if their rule be to practise it no oftner , then they practise it indeed , some of them have had no supper at all in their parishes , neither for young nor old for about seven or eight years together last past , and when they will no body knows , and how they can with a good conscience I cannot tell , nor never could while I stood among them , they standing all , and their people all universally unbaptized to this day , for which neglect of theirs to give persons their meat in due season , order and manner , feeding them with a break-fast in baptism , before they are fit to be fed , so much as with that milk , and then denying them any supper at all when they come to years , though they then both pay for it , and are at least as fit to feed thereon , as they were in infancy to feed on baptism , the Lord of that supper , and of all the other holy ordinances of his which they have dispenst more after their own minds and mens tradition , will , and Testament , then his own , will call them ere long to give account of their stewardship too , and let them be no longer stewards . ] And yet a little more to trace Mr. Blake to and fro as he daunceth the hay up and down in that t●ifling treatise , he tells us that these are a holy seed , of the noblest birth , yea though they be the children of loose living parents , of misbelieving parents , p. 4.5.25.26 . of apostatized parents of excommunicate parents of fornicating parents [ and consequently a very bastard brood , which under the law that Mr. Blake himself professes to be tried by were unclean , and not admitted into the congregation unto the tenth generation ] of papistical parents [ for even these are but misbelievers and Christians in name still , and as himself sayes no infidels , though ( to go round again ) holding such damnable errors in the faith p. 30. as shut them out from the happiness , and therefore I think from the holiness too , of Christians ] yet all this notwithstanning ( to go round again ) if the children but of believing parents that are of the Church , and ( to go round again ) not true believers neither as believer is opposed to unbeliever , misbeliever or Christian in name onely , with all which he confesses the Church may abound , but as believer is opposed onely to infidel p. 25. [ between which terms unbeliever , and infidel which are not synonimaes it seems with him , yet the Scripture makes no more difference then is between 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the same greek word that expresses both , and is translated into latin by infidelis , and Englisht by either unbeliever or infidel , notwithstanding all this I say if born in England , or any where else in any nations , or of any parents that are but Christian in name onely , or of but one such Christian parent , the other being an Indian , that is with him an infidel indeed , they are with him a holy seed still , that God ownes and challenges for his , yea frrom the womb Gods heritage , a seed so nobly born as noble Nehemiah himself was not , yea p. 28. the least of whom is greater then Nehemiahs better . These high and Heroick Eulogies Mr. Blake bestowes upon not true believers and real Saints onely to whom yet they peculiarly belong ; but on meer carnall Gospellers , the naturall lukewarm formalists of the Antichristian more then Christian nations , upon pretensive verbal professors , and that not of truth neither as t is in the word , but as in the word of an erroneous Priest-hood , who preach truth for tith , and yet not the tith of that truth they should preach neither , but mostly the traditions of men , upon real professors of prophanness , for so many to one of them that are Christians in name onely , and yet not on these only but on the meer fleshly seed of these doth he bestow such expressions as these , even no less then can be said of the chiefest Saints , he saies of the fleshly holy seed of all the sinners in Christendome , viz. a chosen generatien , a royall priesthood , a holy nation , a peculiar people , page 8 , people of God that suck in much of God whilest they suck the breast page 32. And yet for all this their so timely acquaintance with , and knowledge of God , as it were from the womb his heritage , having the knowledge of the Scriptures , if not with John Baptist full of the holy Ghost from the womb , never in that condition of enstrangement from God as the Ephesians were said to be in Ephes. 2.11 . for thus extraordinarily also doth he ●xtol that fleshly seed that is born within the precincts of the Christian nations p. 32 , for all this ( I say ) to go round again , and to use his own phrases and expressions of them in the quite contrary way page 28. breeding and education not answering birth and descent , by which they are Gods by Covenant ; A people ignorant to perdition , and destruction , such as though dedicated to God so soon as born , yet have nothing appears in their lives , but that they might have been given as well to Moloch , such who ( as holy seed and people as they are ) are no better but somewhat worse than the Mongrel seed , that spake half in the Language of Canaan , and half of Ashdod , out of whose mouth scarce a word can be heard , for to argue that they are Christians , lisping out oathes as soon as words , put to learn trades , and little regard had that they may learn to know Christ Iesus ; for even thus and no less doth Mr Blake disparage this honorable holy seed that is born in Christendome , soon after he had listed them up as it were to heaven , and set them above the seed of all other people in the world , in respect of this birth-holinesse and happinesse : insomuch that if you read how this royal race , and fleshly birth holy seed of all that are Christians but in name , do sometimes ride and float upon the high waves of his windy applause , and by and by are debased and denominated in no higher and better , but somewhat worse and inferiour terms then the mongrel seed , which God was so far from owning as his , that he enjoyned their own fathers not to own them Neh , 13. Ezek. 13. I am jam tacturos sidera summa putes . I am jam tacturos tartara nigra putes . Me thinks t is very much , and not a little to be mused on , that a seed of such holiness , mercies , glory , honor , royalty , bliss , promises , priviledges , carried up so high into the aire which words , born up above all mens seed with pompous titles of , high born heirs , intimately interessed in God , in Christ , in Abraham , allied to them all as their own , upon no other then that bare account of being the meer fleshly seed of Christians , and that in name only , should yet when all is done have neither any earthly kindome , inheritance or Canaan ( as the Jewes had while they enjoyed this birth-priviledge ) whereby to prove them real heirs of something more then bare ordinance ( which is but bondage without the inheritance ) not a dram more of any outward earthly felicity , power , glory , peace , plenty , &c. then what may befal the seed of Turks and Tartars as well as they ; nor yet the least measure of reall right , or true and immediate title to the heavenly Canaan , kindome , and inheritance by any promise thereof made to them as such , i , e. upon the meer account of being such mens seed , unless at years they become believers , and obedient to the Gospel themselves , upon which terms of belief and obedience when they come to age , the seed of the vilest wretch under heaven may be an heir of it aswel as they : for in infancy the seed of believers have not bard themselves from heaven , or deserveed exemption , by any actuall transgression , from the generall state of little infants declared in Scripture , any more then the Infants of believers , so but that dying in infancy they may be saved equally with the other , and when they grow to years the seed of the best believers in the world have no promise without faith to be saved ere the sooner because they are such mens seed , but in the way of faith or believing themselves , the seed of the worst enemies to Christ that ever breath'd have as much promise and assurance from God that they shall be saved as the other . Sirs where is the blessedness you speak of ? where the great preheminence of believers seed under the Gospel doth nowly , in respect of which they are stiled by Mr. Blake , and others such great and high born heirs , nor yet what inheritance it is , which by that bare fleshly birth onely they are heirs to , I could never yet find of my self , nor learn from any of you . As for the Iews by nature though they were not heirs of heaven it self , upon the meer fleshly birth of Abraham without faith Rom. 4.13 . yet they were not called heirs meerly as born after the flesh in vain , for there was an earthly Canaan which they were heirs of , and God gave to them by promise as they were meerly the fleshly seed of Abraham , which also they actually enjoy'd according to the promise , whether they had any faith or moral holinesse yea or no , during that time of the law , but as for the fleshly seed of believing Gentiles , to which Mr. Blake translates the same birth priviledge of being holy and high born heirs by nature , they stand heirs ( by that natural birth onely ) of neither the earthly nor yet the heavenly Canaan : Mr. Blake feeds us with an empty title of holiness by birth , heirs by birth , but can't possibly say we are heirs of heaven by birth of believers , unless we believe our selves , and believing themselves those that by fleshly birth are of unbelieving parents are by promise heirs to it as much as any : nor can he say that the seed of believing Gentiles are heirs by birth ( as the Jews were ) of the land of Canaan , and yet if the same birth priviledge , birth holiness , birth happiness they had , be now ( as he saies it is ) made over to such in the same way as t was once standing among the Jews , me thinks as they were disinherited from their land through unbelief , when once the time of standing by faith onely came , as well as from their title to the names of Church , people of God , a holy seed , heirs by birth and such like , so those that succeed them in their whole birth priviledge , should have their inheritance as well as the name of heirs by birth , or else how is there such an equalizing of the body of Christians with the Nation of the Jews , as Mr. Blake pleads there is p. 8. how can we be said to be as largely and in as full and ample manner invested with , and installed into the glorious fleshly birth-rights , which the Jews of old were dignified withal if we have not a plenary conveyance of the outward benefits and blessings of the land of Canaan , and the possession of that inheritance , which God then gave to those Iews by nature , to us and our fleshly seed , as well as of the outward oracles and ordinances ? besides what a poor pitteous piece of birth priviledge is it , to be adopted instead of the Jews into the meer name of holy sons and heirs , and yet to have not a foot of that land which was the Iews inheritance , in respect to their fruition of which by right of a promise to Abraham and them , they were then honoured with that name of heirs ? but if it be said that we are now by a birth of believing parents heirs ( as they were then ) of the heavenly inheritance , and the true eternal Canaan and kingdom whereof that was but a type , though we have not to do with that typical land it self as they once had ; I still strongly deny it that either any Iews by nature then were , or any of the fleshly seed of believing Gentiles now are , by the faith of their fathers onely heirs by any promise at all of the kingdome of heaven , or any further at all then as dying in infancy they never deserved exemption by actuall trangression , or living to age they believe themselves , and so viz. dying in infancy before they have bard themselves by actual sin , or believing themselves when grown to age , I say still the fleshly seed , even of such fathers as never had any faith , are by that faith of their own heirs of the kingdom , which God hath prepared for all persons that love him of what parents soever , and shall ( so dying ) assuredly inherit it once , and that by promise as well as they . And so I leave Mr. Blake unlesse he like rather to return to the truth , to loose himself least I also loose my self with him from the work in hand , in that maeandrou● laborinth of self contradictions , Romish confusions , Iewish conceits and ceremonies , pithles priviledges , absurd asseverations , of a present continuance of that old legal typical , and ( by God himself ) long since in Christ crucified , profaned and cashiered holiness , which his Baby-book entitled The birth priviledge abounds with , which if they have so much truth in them as he confidence in averring then his eyes are not so dim as I now deem they are , but my own rather , with which I seriously and sincerely ●e●k after truth , are , Christs promise in that case to the contrary notwithstanding Prov. 2.3.4 . Iohn 7.17 . totally and terribly darkned . Much more might easily be said in discovery of the foppicalnesse of that book , but I spare to spend any more time or paper upon it then its worth ; besides having by the last argument above urg'd stockt him up by the stumps , and by the following considerations and returns to sundry of his self confuting sentences blasted some of his broadest shews , and chopt off not a few of his most flourishing branches , I shall not weary my self further in fighting with any more of his figleaves , for they consequently will die of themselves , and so till the Lord have mercy upon him which is the best good I can , and the worst hurt I do desire should befall him , and take him up into nearer acquaintance with the truth of his Gospel , he must lie where he is for me , onely because there seems to be one scruple more behind , which though it be but a g●at , I see many strain at I shall onely blow it out of the way , and so hasten from further handling of this head of infant holinesse , to the rest of those mediums , whereby you the Ashford Disputants undertake to prove believers infants to have the holy spirit . Babist . The holinesse of that fleshly seed which was circumcised under the law was not ceremoniall and typicall onely ; nor onely appertaining to Moses Tabernacle , Testament and law as the holinesse of the Priests , Altar , sacrifices , and other legall services was : for that indeed as it began with Moses , so ended in Christ crucified , but this holiness in the seed and the matter of infant Church-membership and circumcision upon this birth priviledge , and Covenant holinesse was before the law of Moses , for that people were a holy seed and children of the promise made to Abraham Gen. 17. and thereupon circumcised 400 years before Moses , and the law , end therefore as it began not with it , so neither is it to be ab●ogated together with Moses law . Baptist. Though the Covenant of circumcision , i. e the promise of the land of Canaan to Abrahams fleshly seed , who by birth were a holy seed that were to inherit that holy land , and circumcision it self also the token of it were long before Moses , yet did they belong to Moses law , that is now abolisht , and thereto are they by Christ himself accounted to appertain and plainly call'd the law of Moses , Ioh. 7.22 , 23. And as circumcision and the birth priviledge of Abrahams fleshly seed , so many mo things were many years before Moses was born ; as offerings and sacrifices , and distinctions of cleanness and uncleanness of beasts , and yet all were but pieces of the ceremoniall law of Moses , and were to cease utterly under Christ , neither is it any good consequence at all to argue thus concerning any thing , viz. It was before Moses was born , and before Moses gave the law , and therefore no part of the ceremonial law , for many parts of that law of Moses were in being before Moses himself had any being , and yet are reputed to no other then Moses Testament , as well as many things that were done no less then 1000 years before Christ came in person , are reputed as apperatining to his Testament , and to tell you the truth both the Gospel and the Law , both the old Testament and the new , though neither of them perfectly , yet in part and secundum quid ( as you use to say ) i. e. in some respects , and remote beginnings were both in being as high as Adam and Abell ; even thousands of years before either Moses or Christ were born , after whose names the two Testaments are called : for as what was of the Gospel was called after Christ , though a thousand years before Christ came , or the Gospel began in its last and most clear and perfect promulgation , for in Heb. 11.24 . Moses is said to esteem the reproach of Christ as great riches &c. So that we see the crosse of Christ was before Christ was born , even so what was a part of the typical law , or old Covenant was stiled Mosaical though some parcels of it were given out , and in use before Moses was born ; yea circumcision it self which was four hundered year elder then Moses , is said to be given by Moses , and called the Law of Moses : Moses gave you circumcision &c. and ye on the Sabbath circumcise a man , that the Law of Moses may not be broken Ioh. 7.22.23 . And not only circumcision and sacrifices but even the whole Law is said to come by Moses , though circumcision and sacrifices , which were parts of it , came long before him , and grace and truth to come by Christ , i. e. the very things themselves of which Moses Testament was but typical , and a shadow , Though grace and truth were both in the world in part long before Christ came personally into it , Iohn 1.17 . yea something of both Law and Gospel came into the world before either Moses or Christ , yet they are denominated after them Moses Law , Christs Gospel , and said respectively to begin in them , to come with them , to be given by them , as if they had been altogether unheard of before these times ; because when they came they gave the things a new that were before , and also the fullness of the things respectively perteining to each Testament , which in part were , but not in their ample perfection till their times ; and thus the Law was said to begin at Moses , Gal. 3.17 . and the Gospel to begin at Christ birth , Mark 1.1 the one 400 years the other at least two thousand years after both Covenants , viz. the Law and the Gospel too began in the word of Promise to Abraham , and his two seeds , Isaac and Christ , to whom respectively the two promises were made of two several Canaans , the Earthly and the Heavenly , whereof the one , together with the promise it self that was made of it , and the Promised seed to which it was made , viz. the fleshly seed of Abraham by Isaac , was a clear type of the other , i. e. of the promise and promised seed that by that promise were to be heirs thereof , viz. a spiritual seed of Abraham by faith in Jesus Christ Gen. 17. For there the Inheritances of both Covenants were both given in the word of promise , the one , viz. the Heavenly Canaan more darkly , through the other typing it out , the other i. e. the Earthly Canaan more clearly , plainly and in terminis ver . 7.8 . I will give to thee and thy seed after thee ( meaning Isaac the onely seed , and heir of that promise , for Ishmael and his had not that typical covenant established on them p. 20.21 . but Isaac and his fleshly seed , as also A●titypically Isaac and his fleshly seed , who were sons of the bondwoman , and a meer fleshly seed in reference to Christ , though children of the free-woman and a promised seed ( in a type ) in reference to Ishmael , had not the true , or Gospell Covenant established on them , meerly as born of Abrahams body , but as believing , and so it is established on all men , but Christ and Believers ) I will give thee and thy seed ( saith he ) the Land of Canaan : even then and there God gave out both the Covenants in the promise , viz. the Gospel more implicitly , and in a shadow , the other i. e. the legal Covenant concerning Canaan in express terms together with a present grant of one of the grand Ordinances of it , as a sign and token , viz. Circumcision , typing out the spiritual Iews or seed of Abrahams circumcision in heart , that must be heirs only under the Gospel , Rom. 2. Phil. 3. to which Ordinative ▪ or beginning , or cardinal ordinance circumcision , many more Statutes , Laws , Judgements , and ordinances were to be added in after ages , when the time of their entring their Possession should draw nigh , to the observation of all which ( as in time God should give them out more clearly by his Servant Moses ( the Deliverer , Minister and Mediator of that Covenant ) circumcision was an obligation , and in these Respects that Covenant is called the Covenant of Circumcision Act. 7.8 . and Circumcision it self called an Engagement to keep the whole law , i. e. binding to the performance of all things required to be done on mans part , i. e. the Jewes in order to their enjoyment of Canaan under that old Testament or Covenant , Gal. 5.3 . For though Circumcision , as well as that promised Land , whereof it was a token , and that fleshly seed that were signed heirs by it , and all other the Ordinances of Divine Service , which the first Covenant then had , and in a manner every thing else under the Law related thus far to the Gospel Covenant , as that they were types and shadowes of something answerable under the Gospel , i. e. Circumcision of the heart , and that other seed , i. e. Iews inwardly , both answering to that Circumcision and those Iews which were outward only and in the flesh , Rom. 2.27.28 , 29. Phillip . 3.2 , 3. and of the Heavenly Inheritance , which these inward Iews , i. e. believers or circumcised ones in heart are heirs to by promise ; yet both that sign Circumcision , and the promise signified by it , were all alike relating immediately to that Old Testament of Moses , as parts thereof , and were not parts , but paterns only of the new ; nor was Circumcision any other then an ordinance of the Law of Moses , and not a direct rule for us to square or steer by in our dispensing any ordinance of the Gospel , for that were to disparage the Law-giver , we are under even that other great Prophet Christ , whom Moses pointed at , saying Deut. 18. A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you , him shall ye hear in all things , &c. as if he were not as faithful and punctual to the full in fitting lawes for his house , the Gospel Church , as Moses was for that old Israel or Church under the Law , which was his , Heb. 3.1.2.5.6.7 . Though therefore both Covenants were in being , i. e. the Law and the Gospell , before either Moses or Christ , the one concerning the Earthly Canaan to a fleshly seed in a Type ; the other a Heavenly Canaan to a spiritual seed as the Antitype ; yet are they said to begin the one in Moses , the other in Christ , because these two were respectively the two Mediatours of these two Covenants , and as it were the two several Masters and Law givers to the two seeds , or the two several families of Abraham , viz. the two Churches under the Law ; and the Gospel , the fleshly Israel , and the spiritual , the personal comming of which two Mediators and abiding for a time in their several houses , did perfect what was lacking in them before in point of outward Ordinances , and institutions , and from thenceforth , i. e. from the several periods of their presence with them , establish them in a more compleat posture then before , and each Church severally in its own proper order . Moses then was the Mediator of the Old Testament , established upon Earthly promises : and so gave precepts accordingly ; but Christ the Mediator of the new , which is called a better Testament established upon better promises , Heb. 8.6 . and so gives his precepts not by the mouth of Moses but as he pleases . Besides all this , though the Covenant of Circumcision made with that fleshly holy seed , began before Moses , yet whether that denomination of a holy seed , a holy Nation , and people did begin so high as Abraham , or before such time as Moses and Aaron had according to Gods command to them , ceremonially sanctified by the bloud of sprinkling and dedicated both the Book of the Covenant and all the people , and all the vessells of the Ministery , and all other things pertaining to that Tabernacle ( for both that holy people and all their ceremonially holy things whereby you need not be ignorant unless you will that the holiness of that seed and their sanctuary was the same , and began and were to end both together , were first consecrated , didicated , purified , sanctified all at one time under Moses Heb. 9.18.19.20.21.22 . &c. ) whether I say the holiness of the seed began so high as Abraham is a thing so out af doubt to me , that I dare say that as the holy land was not relatively holy till they came into it , so the holy seed , as well as the other holy things of that Covenant , were not ceremonially consecrated , nor formally sanctified , nor vouchsafed that title of a holy seed , though vertually they were a choise seed before , till a little before they were to enter it , and howbeit I challenge no man , yet I intreat any man in the world to shew me if he can where they were denominated and distinguished from all other people as unclean by that term of a holy people till God intituled them so by Moses , Exod 22.31 . ye shall be holy men unto me neither shall ye eat any flesh that is torn of beasts , ye shall cast it to doggs : which place compared with Levit. 22.8.9 . Deut. 7.6 . chap. 14.2 . chap. 26.19 . doth so plainly shew these two things . First , That the holiness there spoken of began but thenceforth . Secondly , that it was but a certain ceremonial distinction , and a holinese opposite to that kind of defilement , which might be contracted by eating of unclean beasts , and so fully ceased in Christ , that I even blush to read Mr. Blake , and have been ashamed in my mind to hear some Independents also bring those Scriptures , wherein God called Israel a holy people to himself , to prove , that an inchurched believers meer fleshly seed is now by nature holy in the same sense . Now then let us hear the conclusion of this whole matter : of the things that have been spoken this is the summe , viz. that there are three kinds of holiness , of which when you say children of believing parents have holiness , and consequenrly the spirit , you undoubtedly mean one , viz. Matrimonial , Ceremonial , Moral . The Middlemost of which , because your fellow laborers against the Gospel intend that chiefly in their books , I have treated on last , and most largely , and I now say three things of it in special . First , That it is a Holinesse which once was , but now is not in being . Secondly , That it is a Holiness which of it self , when it was in being , as it was at the beginning of the Gospel before Christ crucified , could not without faith and moral holiness interest the persons in whom it was seated in any of these three things , viz. Gospel Promises , Gospel Priviledges , or Gospel Ordinances . 1. Not the promises , for they were made to Abraham in Christ and his spiritual seed ; not his own fleshly seed upon such terms , as bare birth of his body , or such holiness and righteousness as was under the Law intituling to Canaan Rom. 4.13.14 . Gal. 3.16.29 . 2. Not the priviledges , viz. Gospel immunities , and Church-membership , for those that could plead they were under the typical freedomes of the old house , or Church under the Law , as Abrahams seed only were , are denyed by Christ to be that holy seed that should stand in the Gospel house , that was now to be built , or share in that spiritual freedome which the sonne gives , which is the only freedome indeed , unlesse they did Abrahams works , Iohn 8.32 . to the 40th . 3. Nor yet the Ordinances , no not so much as Baptism the initiating ordinance it self , for when that old holy seed remaining yet under their relative and denominative holiness unabolished , did plead it as to baptism , they were put back by Iohn , and not permitted , barely upon that account upon which they stood in the old house , without faith , unless they now believed and amended their lives whose repulse of them when they came to his baptism was this viz. begin not to say we have Abraham to our Father &c. Mat. 3.7 , 8 , 9. Luke 3.7.8 . Thirdly , suppose baptism were entailed so to that holinesse and a meer fleshly seed of believers , or of believing Abraham himself as truly as t is true it is not , yet how grossely were you overseen Gentlemen in undertaking to prove the holy spirit by it to be in infants , for that 's the probandum , the very thing which by the holinesse of infants you went about to make good , for the minor of your first sylogism which was this , but little children have the holy spirit , being denied was proved ( say you ) first by their faith , secondly by their holinesse , thirdly by those Eulogies given them in Scripture : if then by holinesse you mean this kind of holiness , I mean ceremonial , which once was in the Iews by nature , you have a wet eele by the tail then indeed , for ask but Mr. Blake and he 'le tell you , that that holinesse was in thousands who yet had not the holy spirit , yea in truth all the Iews had that holinesse , of whom not a Tenth , even then when they had it , were either in infancy , or at years morally sanctified , or indued with the holy spirit : and as I have said these three things in special , concerning that one kind of holinesse , so I have three things in general to say in short concerning al these three sorts of holinesse viz. First , one of them was in infants of old , and now is not but is vanisht , and when it was it proved not the spirit viz. ceremonial . Secondly , another is , but nothing to your purpose , I mean the proof of the spirit , though it be in most infants viz. matrimonial . Thirdly , the other is not yet come for ought yet appears to infants viz. morall , which if it did appear to be in them positive , qualitativè , as an inherent quality , not negative onely so as to be without sin , or absolutely innocent ( for absolute innocency hath no need of baptism ) then I should say something more to you , but you see it doth not , therefore though you said nothing then ( as I wish since I had suffered you to do ) from infants holinesse , to the proof of their having the spirit and right to baptism , yet I have searcht , but cannot possibly find what holinesse you could possibly have proved it by . I have been the larger here , though you gave me but a bare hint , by the nomination onely of infants holinesse : first , because here lies indeed the very principal knot and basis of this controversie , which you erring in are consequently erroneous in all your wayes , for Error minimus in principio fit major in medio , Maximus in fine . And as for all o●her arguments pro and con they are but as Auxilliarie hereunto . Secondly , because I am willing also sith you call so much for it , to give out my own grounds for the truth , by the way as I go along in disproving of your false ones , that you may either yield to them if sound , or answer and disprove them , if unsound and rotten : in the residue I shall be so much the briefer . The next argument whereby you undertake to prove infants of believing parents to have the holy spirit , is drawn from those Eulogies given them in Scripture , not inferior to those of the best Saints , from whence you thus argue . Disputation . Those who are invited to come to Christ Mark 10.14 . Mat. 19.14 . Luk. 18 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 verse 15. babes such as are new come from the womb , blessed by Christ , declared to have right to the kingdome of heaven , set forth for examples of innocency , not to be offended guarded from heaven by Angels &c. have the holy Ghost . But such are little children , Disproof . You say they have Eulogies i. e. good language and commendations given to them , not inferiour to those of the best Saints . Nay Sirs , they are superiour in some sense to the best of Saints , for the best here have sin , but these have yet none , Christ taking away Adams sin , and they adding none of their own , and yet it will not follow that they are to be baptized , for they have yet no need of it , muchlesse that they have the holy spirit , which is the thing you would prove by it . As for these particular Eulogies , which you instance in , if the most special among them do clearly prove the subject thereby denominated , to have that holy spirit that entitles to baptism , then I le agree that mine are , but if it do not , then I hope you will agree to it that your wits are little better then sodden ; In order to the fuller finding out of the full weight of each Eulogy to such a purpose , I le consider some of them asunder , that being the best way , and not as you ( Babilonicae brevitatis gratiâ ) have wrapt and swadled them all up together into one Syllogism , and if you think it too tedious so to do , I would have you to know my pains in writing will be Tantamount to your patience in reading . The first Eulogy , which you say Scripture gives to little children , is their invitation to come to Christ , from whence your Argument in form must runne thus . Babist . Those who are invited to come to Christ have the holy spirit , and are thereupon to be baptized . But little infants of believing parents are invited to come to Christ , Ergo they have the holy spirit and are to be baptized . Baptist. To which I retort , stating onely another Minor in room of yours , as the subject to answer to your middle term , and then judge your selves how false your foundation i. e. your Major is , and consequently your building or conclusion . Thus Those that are invited to come to Christ have the holy spirit , and are thereupon to be baptized . But all men and women in the world are invited to come to Christ , Mark. 16.15 . Mat. 22.9 . 2 Cor. 5.19.20.21 . Isa. 55.1 . Mar. 11.28 . Rev. 22.17 Ergo all men and women in the world have the the holy spirit , and are therevpon to be baptized . I need say no more to wise men . The 2 Eulogy given from Scripture to little children is this viz. they are blessed by Christ whence your argument must run thus . Babist . Those that are blessed by Christ have the holy spirit , and so present right to baptism . But little children of believing parents are blessed by Christ , Ergo they have the holy spirit , and present right to baptism . Baptist. I answer first by denying your Major , which is not universally true , for persons may be blessed by Christ , and yet not have the holy spirit , for better understanding of which let it be considered that persons may be blest various wayes , from which yet to their having the holy spirit there 's no consequence viz. outwardly and inwardly , temporally and spiritually , with blessings of the body and of the soul , of this life and that to come : first with outward temporal bodily blessings ( abstract from the other ) they may be and often are blessed , when yet at present at least ( for so they must have as to your present purpose ) they have not the holy spirit , who possibly also never have it in all their lives , I mean in that sense from which Peter argues thus to their baptism Act. 10. for that some of you say when you can make advantage on 't another way , was the spirit in the extraordinary gifts of it onely , as tongues , prophecy , utterance &c. by which sense how ever your infancy is clear cut off from all capacity of having it , and so you are confuted by your own party in the very corner stone of this your babish building ; but I le give you the advantage of your own personal Tenet let it be what it will ( save only that forenamed common sense of the spirit , wherein I have told you , t is in all men , who yet are not therefore to be baptized ) I say again , both men and women , and children may be blessed by Christ outwardly only , as with health , peace , plenty , fruitful seasons , Mat. 5.45 . God is good to all , and sends sun and rain i. e. all temporal blessings on the good and evil , just and unjust . The blessings of bodily protections , as to be guarded with Angells from heaven from dangers , and mischiefs ; which is another of the Eulogies you here instance in , which to save your selves and me some labor , I le take in hear , it being but a temporal blessing , from which it follows not that such as are blessed with it must consequently have the holy spirit ; also bodily salvation from and sanation of dis●ases , distempers , by Christ , who is a Saviour of the body ; these blessings of the body , the barn , the basket , and the store , health , and external happinesse persons may be , and often are blessed with from God , who fills their bellies with hid treasure , so that they prosper and are not plagued , when yet they are wicked in their lives , and far from the holy spirit . Secondly ; If you take Christs blessing ( as in this place you must , for it s so expounded and plainly expressed in one of the three Evangelists you quote , which write all the same thing in some difference of prase ) for his praying for the persons whom he blessed , I say that even spiritually persons may be blessed by Christ in prayer for them , yea blessed with the blessing of the spirit it self , as de futuro , and and yet not , pro presenti , have the spirit : for Christ blessed his disciples , Luke 24.50 . i. e. prayed for them that they might be endued with the spirit , and yet that he then prayed for , or by lifting up his hands , to the father then blessed them with , did not come on them till some while after : in this sense Isaac blessed Iacob Gen. 27.28.29 . Iacob Ioseph , Gen. 40.15.16 . the High-Priest all the People , Num. 6.23 . Moses all Israel before his departure also , Deut. 33.1 . &c , and yet they were not actually possessed of the blessings just then , when they blessed them , but along time after . There is a blessing by promise , as God blessed Abraham with a Son , and the Land of Canaan ; a blessing by Prophesy as Iacob blessed all his Sonnes fortelling , as I may say , their several fortunes Gen. ' 41. a blessing by Prayer , as in the forenamed places , and in this of Mat. 19.13 . Mark 10.16 . And there 's a blessing by putting into actual possession , and fruition of a mercy , so God blessed Israel with the real enjoyment of the Land of Canaan , and all temporal blessings in that earthly place , & so Antitypically will once bless all the spiritual seed of Abraham with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places by Christ Iesus Eph. 1.4 . Now the three first waies of blessing persons are all concerning things to come , and sometimes a long while after ; yea in prayer Christ blest all that ever should believe on him through the word to the worlds end , Ioh. 17. so long before the thing befell them , that it was even before most of them were born . As to your Minor then , wherein you say , little children were blessed by Christ , I grant it to be true , but not in any such sence as truely argues at all that in their infancy they had the holy spirit . For First , it of the two most plainly appears that his blessing was no other then bodily infirmities , which are as incident to infants as men , and the end for which they brought them shews the utmost he did to them , which was not that he should baptize them ( as I shall more clearly shew by and by ) but that he should touch them , and put his hands on them , and pray : no question t was in order to healing , for t was at a time when he healed many others , if you compare this passage as t is in Mat. 19. with the first and second verses of the Chapter : yea v. 15. t is plainly expressed what he did , i. e. he laid his hands upon them , and departed thence ; besides Luke saies they brought little children unto him also that he should touch them : which [ ALSO ] shews that others were brought too , as sick folks commonly were , because vertue went out of him , so that as many as touched him were made perfectly whole . Secondly , if he did blesse them spiritually in his prayers , t was doubtless ( yet all whom he healed were not so blessed neither , witness the nine Leapers ) concerning things to come , and if he prayd for their particular salvation , yet they might not immediately have the spirit . But Thirdly , What ever t was he did to those particular infants ( which whether they were believers infants or no too no man can tell ) for many sought him for loaves , and outward mercies , and many for healing of themselves , and children , meerly that they might be rid of their burdens , on whom yet he had compassion for all that ) yet first what is this to other infants , or to ours that cannot now be brought to his person ? besides what more to believers than unbelievers infants ? what more to any then to all ? away therefore for shame with such dry Divinity as this : he touched those children and blest them , that were then presented to him , that he might touch them , therefore all believers infants have the holy spirit , and must be baptized : away with such dribling dispute also , it is not fit for Christs School , nor mans neither . The next Eulogie you mention is this , viz. Their being declared to have right to the Kindome of heaven , whence your Argument must run thus . Babist . Those who are declared to have right to the King dome of heaven have the holy spirit . But little children of believing parents are declared to have right to the kingdome of heaven . Ergo they have the holy spirit . Baptist. In answer to which I must distinguish upon your middle term . There 's a twofold right to the Kingdome of heaven , viz. a remote right , and an immediate right , conditional or absolute , a right in potentiâ , and a right in Actu . The remote , Conditional , potential , right , ad regnum , to the Kingdome , upon future Contingencies , and Events ; this all persons that ever were born into the world have . i. e. conditionally , or in case they dying in infancy , do no evil , or living to years shall believe , and obey the Gospel : but what is this right to your purpose ? for verily First , It proves not the holy spirit , which you speak of to be in those that have it . Secondly , if it did it proves it to be in unbelievers as well as believers seed , as unto whom , when they come to years , Christ is a common salvation , and the Gospel of the kingdome is to be tendered , and that not in mo●kage but truly , and really as theirs , till they reject , or put it from them , 〈◊〉 as the ●ews to all generations since Christ have done ; that they may believe , and believing have life through his name , i. e. immediate right to it here , and possession hereafter : or if they happen to dy in the innocency of their infancie before they have ( to speak in your own phrase p. 5. ) by any actual sin barred themselves or deserved to be exempted from that generall st●te of littl children declared in Scripture viz. secundum te O Accountant , right to the Kingdome of Heaven , then have they all such apitudinem regnandi , as will cost the Priest-hood of England for all his Christian charity in declaring the right of belivers seed to the Kingdome , more reason than they ever did , or yet have to bestow that way , to clear themselves from the just censure of Antichristian cruelty , for their excluding , and damning all the dying infants of others , which are rari quippe boni , numero vix sunt totidem quot &c. counting the little corner believers will stand in , at least no less then twentie to one . And as for that other more immediate , actual , absolute right to the Kingdom , when it shal come , this Mediante Morte in infantiâ , all dying infants have as well as some , and not in infantiâ ) all dying infants of believers th●n of unbelievers , for even of such ( I mean all dying infants , for infants living to years are no more infants ; though it be questionable too whether Christ speaks of the same in the place in hand , or of such as are like them in innocency &c. of the two most likely to be the truth ) of such I say I grant the kingdom of heaven to be ( for ought I know ) but of no persons living to years , whether believers seed or unbelievers , Nisi mediante fide , et obedientiâ , and then they have actual and present right to it , all which notwithstanding ( mark what I say , for it cuts in two the sinews of your consequence ) t will not universally follow neither that those that have right have ( pro presenti ) the holy spirit , for though nothing can come between such as finally believe , and the kingdome , and that fulnesse of the spirit that comes in with it , of which the spirit here is an earnest , and the spirit it self as the earnest , so as to cut them off from the future possession of both ( God who cannot ly having promised the kingdom , as conditionally to all people at years , if they believe , so absolutely to all that finally do believe ) yet many of those that believing the things spoken pertaining to the kingdom , and so having more immediate right then before ( unlesse they loose it again ) may ( pro presenti ) be without not onely the kingdom and fulnesse of the promise , which they stand actually heirs to by faith , till the purchased possession come to be actually possessed by all the Saints at once , but for a time too without the spirit ( as but an earnest ) for this , in the common way of Gods dispensation of old , was neither promised nor bestowed on any by promise ( unlesse at any time God was better then his word as he was Act. 10. nor on good ground to be expected till after faith , repentance , obedience in baptism and prayer , witnesse the forecited places , Iohn 7.38 39. Act. 2.38.5.32.8.12.15.16.19.1.2 . Luk. 11.13 . Prov. 1.23 . The next Eulogy given to little infants , whereby you argue the holy spirit to be in them , is their being set forth for examples of innocency , whence your argument must be thus . Babist : Those that are set forth for examples of innocency have the holy spirit . But little children of believing parents are set forth for examples of innocency . Ergo they have the holy spirit . Baptist. Bare simple innocency , harmlessnesse and freedom from hurt proves neither holinesse , nor holy spirit to be where it is , it being capable to be not onely in infants , who in respect of age and stature , though not of kind and nature , are in an ordinary way at least an uncapable subject of the other , but also in creatures by kind uncapable at any time of the spirit , viz. doves , sheep , lambs , every of which ( as well as infants ) are set forth also as examples of meeknesse , patience , innocency , silence , under suffering , as the Ant is also for diligence and forecast , the vine for fruitfulnesse , the Serpent for wisdom to the Saints , and yet have not thereupon the holy spirit , yea Eulogies for some one particular natural excellency , qualification and indowment , and those not inferiour to those of the best Saints may be given , and that as an example for the Saints , not onely to other creatures and innocent infants , but also to such as are elsewise injurious , and no way exemplary to others at all , e. g. the unjust steward Luke 16. who though a meer child of the world , yet is commended by Christ as having done wisely , yea more wisely ( in suo genere ) then the children of light , and given as a pattern of prudence and forecast to them , and yet I should be in doubt whether that man were well in his wits or no , that should argue from those Eulogies to those holy spirit . Secondly from which innocency yet , if it would follow that the spirit is in infants , it must be in all as well as some : for is one Infant more free from actual sin , and in point of innocency propounded as our pattern by Christ more then another ? is not innocency in the whole state of infants , even in unbelievers infants as much to the full as in the other ? The next Eulogy is this , that they are not to be offended ; from whence your argument must run thus . Babist . Those that are not to be offended have the holy spirit . But little children of believing parents are not to be offended . Ergo they have the holy spirit . Baptist. To which by way of answer I le onely compose another Syllogism , and so leave you to see ( as you may do without a candle ) and to search out the sillinesse of your own . Those who are not to be offended have the holy spirit . But little children of unbelieving parents , and also the very Iews and Gentiles , as well as the Church of God , are not to be offended . Ergo little children of unbelieving parents , yea even the Iews and the Gentiles , as well as the Church of God , have the holy spirit . And so Sirs having weighed all your Eulogies one after another in the ballance of right reason , and found them too light , I le onely add one argument of mine own from the very places you quote , from which if either men did not dote on them , because they are found in the old Liturgy , and the new Directory , or were not resolved to take tag , rag and long tail , to scrape together even all the impertinencies that ere they can meet with , in proof of infant baptism , rather then to forgo it now they are ingaged in 't , there is no clearer consequence in the world then that infants are not to be baptized , and then I le pass on to your other proofs . If those very numericall infants spoken of in those very places Mat. 18. Mar. 10. Luke 18. from whence , and from the carriage and practise of Christ there towards them , the priest-hood pleads the baptism of other infants , of whom Christ did never so individually declare ( as he did of these , that they should be brought to him , and that of such is the kingdome of heaven ) were not baptized by Christ , nor his disciples in the primitive times of the Gospel , which are our pattern , then it follows not from the example of these infants that other infants are , but rather that they are not to be baptized . But those very infants spoken of in those very places from whence &c. were not baptized either by Christ or by his disciples &c. Ergo it follows not from the example of those infants that other infants are , but rather that they are not to be baptized . The Major is most undeniably clear , for by what warrant may we take upon us to baptize other infants , when those infants were not baptized that were brought to Christs own person , and whose particular personal right to the kingdom ( as you your selves say ) Christ there declares ? for t is contended by you that the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. of such ] must be meant [ of these ] not [ of such ] as are like to these [ whereby you utterly overthrow your selves too ] for if that speech [ of such ] be in sense and signification [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] i. e. not [ talium ] but [ horum ] then it can reach no more to other infant● of the same kind , then to the other kind of infants i. e. the Saints , these being both viz. the one in specie , the other in qualificatione at most but such , and not the same , for the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 expresses all that are alike to these , whether in kind or qualification onely , or both , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Individuum Indigitativum ( as it were that points out these Individuals that were then present and no more : so that , to allow you your own fained sense ( I say ) if those were not baptized whom Christ so Individually demonstrates , and indigitates as heirs of the kingdome of heaven , much lesse may any other infants of whom ( if you render 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and give the sense to be [ horum ] not talium ] Christ can't be understood as speaking there at all . For the clearing therefore of the Minor , which onely will need proof in this Syllogism ( unlesse you will say let Christ and his disciples do what they will , wee l do what we list ) consider this ; that t is well nigh universally confessed by your selves that these infants were not baptized . Mr. Cottons words upon this very place m are these viz. neither do I alledge this place for to prove that Christ baptized these infants , for it doth not appear that their fathers who brought them were baptized themselves , and therefore neither might their children be baptized according to rule ; and as he speaks thus of this place Mark 10. so much after the same sort he speaks concerning another place viz , Act. 2.38.39.41 . from whence you also ground the baptism of believers infants , from whence also as we do from this , we thus argue the contrary viz. If the infants of those parents Act. 2. that were obedient to the faith and baptized , were not baptized with the rest , then its evident that infants even of baptized believers were not wont to be baptized then . But those infants then were not &c. Ergo &c. The Minor of this Syllogism also Mr. Mr. Cotton proves to my hands , who saies thus , n But to deal ingenuously and faithfully with you the text viz. Acts 2.41 . might hold forth a just colour of an objection , if you had so applied it against the Argument gathered out of v. 38.39 . for the baptizing of infants , for if they who were baptized were such as gladly received his word verse 41. then it doth not appear out of this place that infants were at that time baptized with the rest , because they could not receive the word , much lesse gladly , least of all expresse their gladnesse by any visible profession . This objection I confesse would have prevailed with me to have forborne any proof of the baptism of Infants out of this this place , were i● not partly for the reasons which have been alledged above from v. 39. partly also for that I find the Lord Iesus is wont to accept the acts of parents in the duties of the second commandement as done for themselves and their children ; these are Mr. Cottons own confessions about these two places , in the last of which he seems to say ( if I aim right ) that those children Act. 2. were not baptized in their own persons , but accounted as baptized by God , accepting their parents baptism on their behalf as well as though they had been baptized in their own persons , which if it be so , is of it self a clear argument against infant baptism ; as for the other place Mark 10. I never could meet with the man yet that was so shamelesse as to assert that the infants there spoken of were baptized , excepting Dr. Holmes , and he indeed helps this lame businesse ore the stile , and lends a left handed lift towards the proof of it , that these infants that were brought to Christ were baptized , and that thus . o If Christ speaks of and doth such after higher things to such little children , whilst little children , how much more may that which in nature antecedes , and goes before these ( namely baptism ) be administred to them , whilst little children ? But there is Mark. 10. mention of , and doing of an higher thing then Baptism , namely confirmation of them by prayer and imposition of hands , Ergo how much more may they be baptized ? The same he both argues and asserts p in these words viz , they were brought to him for an outward ordinance , imposition of hands , that ordinance given to them did suppose a former , namely baptism ( as we have shewd ( saith he ) ) above ) and therefore if a little child be brought for the first ordinance , that he ( as such ) is capable of , as children were of circumision , it must be to baptism , and a little below he addes this viz. Christ did not onely cherish their faith that brought them , but also cherished that baptism the children had received . In which expressions he is so unexpresse , or at least so whi●ling to and fro , that he must have more brains then I , that can pick out of them what he means distinctly by them : for in some of them one would think he meant as if those infants were baptized before they came to Christ , and were brought onely now for imposition of hands , in some again as if they had bin then baptized , and brought then to both that and to the other , but which of the two he means it matters not , so long as I shall prove by and by , that t was neither this nor that . But by the way I desire all men to take notice of Dr. Holmes his proofs , whereby he strives to clear it that the infants brought to Christ had then the ordinance of imposition of hands , and so had been baptized before , and how they are not onely nothing cogent , but so clearly cogent and consequential to the very contrary , that he that reads them with reason must needs conclude the Doctors right eye of reason was not a little bleared ( not to say absolutely blinded ) by one thing or other when he wrote them : yea all he saies for the clearing of that , doth clearly contradict and overthrow it . In proof of what he saies in this particular viz. that the ordinance of laying on of hands was dispensed to these infants that were brought to Christ , he alledges the practise of the Antient times , at it is mentioned by Pareus , Caluin , Hophman , Marlorat , Bullinger , and Cotton too , which all according as Dr. Holmes himself hath recorded their words , first severally in chap. seventh of his animad-versions p. 58.59.60 . and summarily ore again as it were to set his folly on high that all might see it , in the 10th chapter p. 85.86 . do testifie uno ore with one consent that in antient time infants were not admitted to imposition of hands , nor confirmed in the fruition of Church estate thereby , that being indeed as himself asserts , from them too , one prime intent of that ordinance which is one of the foundation doctrines to Church fellowship , till to use the very same phrase he quotes out of them , being past their childhood , past innocency grown up to years , youths at least , that made profession of faith , they were received not to that onely , but to the supper , and all other Church liberties also . By which term Antient times t is not easie to discern neither from him so indistinctly doth he utter himself in this , as also in most of his other matter , whether he mean the true and pure primitive times of the most antient fathers the Apostles , which is our rule , or the new and post-primitive times of the fathers since them , which though declining daily into corruption , the priest-hood hath ever for ought I find , in more account then the other , yet by one clause he seems more to allude to the Apostles dayes , viz. in p. 85. the last line , where after he had cited the fore-named Authors , and their joint opinion concerning the dispensing imposition of hands in foretimes to grown persons onely , he adds this viz. so that the original of imposition of hands came down from the Apostles ; thus far these learned men ( saith he ) but which ere he means it makes much what one for him , there being no times , primitive , or posteren wherein the ordinance of laying on of hands was given to infants , unlesse in that midnight of popery wherein they gave the supper to them also : for is it not equally absurd , and ( if worse can be ) worse then senseless , for a man to gather so undoubtedly ( as he doth ) that Christ at that time dispensed the ordinance of laying on of hands to those infants in Mark 10. in their infancy , because the Apostles and Churches in after times , whose pattern he was , did dispense it to persons ever , when they were past childhood , and grown to years ? doth not this rather most evidently evince one of these two things viz. either that the imposition of hands Christ gave to these infants was not that ordinance the Apostles in antient Churches practised to men at years onely ( and that it was not I shall shew by and by ) or else that the Apostles did dispense the Gospell ordinances to other subjects then Christ himself did , whom they were to follow , viz. he to infants , and they onely to persons past infancy ? Moreover if the Apostles did lay on hands at years , though Christ in infancy ▪ what if Christ had baptized those infants in infancy also ? are we more tied to follow his example in that , then in the dispensation of laying on of hands ? you see therefore how the Doctor though he borrows his friend Mr. Cottins reading , and reasons out of antiquity ( as himself saies p. 86. of his animadversions ) to make good a shameful assertion , and argumentation of his own viz. that those infants which were then brought to Christ had both baptism and imposition of hands , and even therefore baptism before , because imposition of hands then , yet makes so bold with it for all that , as flatly to contradict not himself onely , but Mr. Cotton also , whose judgement is far sounder then his in this case , by inferring two things from Mr. Cot●ons words , clean contrary both to Mr. Cottons own opinion ( for he professedly denies that these infants had so much as baptism ) and to the true consequence of his words also ( for Mr. Cottons words directly argue that both re v●ra , and in his judgement of old there was no dispensing the ordinance of imposition of hands at all on infants , till they were grown up to years . How little therefore the Doctor dese●ves to be credited in his consequences a fool may see . Neverthelesse least any should more credit and cleave to Doctor Holmes his odd conceits , weo saies these infants had both baptism and imposition of hands , then to Mr. Cottons candid concessions , and plain confessions that they had neither ; I le add a little to evince it , that they had neither baptism nor imposition of hands in any such sense as the Doctor dreams on from Christ at that time at all . First , that they were not baptized I argue thus . If they were baptized , then t was either before they were brought to Christ , or else by Christ or his disciples then when brought to him . But neither before nor then . Ergo as yet not at all . If you say they had baptism before they were brought to Christ , I wonder how they came by it , or where they had it , or who administred it , sith this surely was their first appearance before Christ and his disciples , and how any else but they could do it ask your selves , who make more ado then needs about the bare administrators of baptism as if they must needs be none but Ministers in orders : if you say Iohn Baptist might do it ▪ my no is better then your yea if I say he might not , for as you have nothing but thought to ground your thoughts on that he did baptiz● any infants , so I have Iohns one deed declaring that he did not , by whom no●●ou nor I neuer find that any were baptized but in doing of that , which infants cannot do viz. confessing their sins . Yet of the two this seems rather to be Dr. Holmes's fancy , that they had been baptized before they were brought thither , for p. 61 , they are supposed here saith he , to have been before baptized , because they were brought to this higher addition , of imposition of hands , and blessing . If you say they were then baptized when brought , it must be either by Christ or his disciples , but neither by him nor them , Ergo not at all at that time . First not by Christ , for he baptized not all with his own hands , onely he is said to baptize because his disciples did it by order and commission from him Iohn 3.22.23 . with Iohn 4.12 . Secondly , nor were they brought to him for any such end as that he should baptize them , but that he should touch them and pray , which so soon as he had done , he went his way . Secondly not by his discipl●s , for they were not brought to them , but to him , and if you say it seems they came to them first , because they blam'd those that brought them , I say that argues plainly that they were not brought to be baptized , for if they had , and had bin also the true , lawful , wonted , and known subjects of baptism to the disciples ( as they must have been ere this time , if either Iohn or themselves had used to baptize infants among the rest ) they could not have been so ignorant and forgetful of , or carnally contradictory to their own and Iohns orders , and wonted fashion , as so frowardly to find fault with , and forbid their coming to be baptized now , but would have rejoiced in , rather then reproved their forwardness● in it , for t is most certain that they had been not onely spectators of Iohns Baptism , but dispensers of baptism themselves also long enough before this time , to have been instructed in the true subject of it , for the bringing of those infants was after Iohn was beheaded , but Christ by his disciples had baptized in Iudea before Iohn was in prison , and whilest Iohn was yet himself baptizing in Euon ; yea and had made , and baptized more disciples than Iohn . Besides the ground of their rebuke of those that came with little children was no doubt their care , and loathness to have Christ too much prest , in which case they sometimes rebuked others , when they throngd upon him so fast for healing , that they had no leasure so much as to eat bread . Secondly , that they came not now under Imposition of hands in that sense the Dr treats on , is most evident . First , by the Drs own quotations of Mr Calvins , and Mr Cottons readings concerning the practise of the first times ; for so far are they from clearing such a thing , as he alledges them for , that they clear the clean contrary , the subjects of that imposition of hands , they speak of , being only professors of the faith , and not infants ; yea how doth D Holmes belabor himself to prove it , that those to whom the primitive Churches dispeased Imposition of hands were persons grown to years , more then doth his cause good , and more then any wise man puts him to by the denial of it , but those that were brought to Christ for it here spoken of none other then very infants in their nonage . Secondly in that this ordinance of laying on of hands was not likely yet in use and being in this prae-primitive-period , wherein Christ laid his hands on these infants ; the ends in order whereunto it was enjoined , and practised when it was , being such as in this juncture , not only infants , but also the very disciples themselves were uncapable of viz. ( as the Doctors own quotations truly shew ) perfect and full fruition of , confirmation in Church state , Gospel Church liberties , Church-fellowships in all Church ordinances , viz. the Supper , and suppications , and also the receiving of the holy spirit , none of all which were yet given to any , in such wise as afterwards they were , no not to the Disciples till either just before ( as the Supper ) or else after Christ was crucified : for howbeit matter for the Gospel Church , and fellowship was fitting , preparing and gathering in by preaching and baptizing even from Iohn , who began the Gospel two or three years before that , and the Gospel Church was as it were in a certain Chaos , or Congeries of matter not yet digested into its perfect form , somewhile before the Jews Church was ended in Christ death , yet it came not to have its own formall constitution , in point of visible order , posture , fellowship , government , officers , discipline , endowments with the spirit , whereby they might be built up an habitation of God , and ordinance of laying on of hands in prayer , specially relating thereunto , till after Christ crucified , and ascended , the holy spirit being not yet come , because Jesus not yet glorified . Thirdly they came not for this but for another kind of Imposition of hand● , which is otherwise called touching , which who ever had from him were ( in case of diseases ) made whole . They came surely for that laying on of hands which Dr Holmes himself speaks of p. 57. out of Hophman ; viz. a laying on in order to healing , for which healing , by a touch of him , many men , women and children came , or else were brought to Christ , while others that were well came to hear him Mark 5.27.28.29.30 . Luke 6.17.18.19 . Mat. 14.13.14.34.35.36 . This Imposition of hands therefore that these infants had was not that which persons , when past infancy only , had in the Churches after , and for Dr Holmes to say the Apostles and ancient Churches confirmed persons by prayer , and laying on of hands , when they were past infancy , and not in it , therefore surely Christ to the same intent and purpose laid hands on these in infancy , is equally absurd as to argue thus , viz. the Apostles and primitive times practised baptism to men and women onely confessing sin , and professing faith , therefore it is most fitting , and likely now to be the will of Christ , that persons should be sprinkled in their nonage : so brittle are all the bottoms you yet build on , but to proceed . Disputation . Know ye not that the spirit of God is in you except ye be reprobates , and they dare not say that little children are all reprobates . Also Review page 16. They are not Reprobates , Therefore Christ is in them . Disproof . Nor do we say that little children are all reprobates , nor durst you say that any of them are reprobates , if meer blindness did not embolden you thereunto : for the truth is consider them yet living in the capacity of infants , and so though in foro Dei , & in esse intentionali , & conditionali , i. e. with God , who calleth things that yet are not as though they were , and foresees both what they will do , and what he accordingly will do with them hereafter , they are already known to be either of one sort or the other , yet in foro hominum , and in esse actuali , i. e. actually , and in the sight of men they are ( finally ) neither reprobated nor elected till they finally receive Christ , or reject him . yea I wish you were all but as sure to be saved , as it is sure that none are ( quoad nos ) rejected , or devoted in the word , which is the coppy of Gods decree , to eternal damnation , but upon account of their own actual transgression , and as t is sure that none at all of them that dy in infancy , and no more of those that live to years also are damned , 〈◊〉 such as finally put salvation away from them , and so judge themselves most worthy of the other ; for though of Iacob and Esau they being yet unborn , neither having done any good or evil , it was foretold by God , who foresaw what good and evil they would do in time ; and what he thereupon would do unto them , that the Elder should serve the younger , yet this was foretold of , and fulfilled in their posterity , and not their persons , for though Edom served Israel , yet Esau in person served not Iacob , but Iacob rather bowed before him , and as for that viz. Iacob have I loved , Esau have I hated , which you wot was spoken of them as from the womb , you shall find if you look again , that it was not spoken of their persons , but their posterity ; nor yet secondly of those without respect to Edoms wickedness above the other ; much less thirdly before Iacob and Esau was born , and had acted good or evil , but so long after Iacob and Esau were born , and had done good and evil , that they were also ere that time , when this was spoken , Mal. 1. many years since dead and rotten , but this would lead me into another controversie , of as large extent and consequence as this in hand , and therfore I will wave it here , yet not so as to decline the discourse of it with you , upon occasion , any more then of the other ; well then that they are not all Reprobat●s it is asserted by you and us too , but what is this at all to your purpose ? For First , is there no Medium between being a reprobate , and a present having the holy spirit ? there were twelve Disciples at Ephesus , which had not so much as heard of the holy spirit , so far were they from having it yet , yet dare you say they were all reprobates ? there were many men and women that believed the things spoken by Philip pertaining to the Kingdome , upon which the holy spirit had not yet fallen , were they all reprobates , because they had not yet received it ? or those thousands Peter promised the holy spirit to , were they all reprobates , because they yet had it not , when he spake to them ? yea millions of men ly yet in wickedness , and so far from having , that at present they rather scoff at the holy spirit , yet dare you not say they are all reprobates ; for some of them may turn at Christs reproof ( for ought you know ) therefore what consequence is there from not being reprobates , to a present possession of the holy spirit ? Secondly , do you know so precisely which infants are Elect , and which Reprobate , as to take upon you to distinguish them by baptism ? or are all infants of unbelievers reprobate , so that you may accordingly denominate them for such by whole sale as you do ? Do not the infants of unbelievers very often prove believers , and so elect , and precious ? and as ordinarily believers infants ( when they come to years I mean ) prove reprobates ? were not Asa the son of wicked Abia , and Iosias of wicked Ammon elected both , when Ishmael and Esau the sons of Abraham and Isaac themselves were in Scripture ( secundum te o Accountant p. 13. ) both branded for reprobates ? Lastly , to the plain perverture of the words of the the text , you quote to your own ends , instead of Iesus Christ , between whose and the spirits being in men there is no small difference ( for Christ may be in us by faith ( I mean we may be in the faith ) when yet he is not in us by his spirit , I mean before the spirit is yet given , witness all the disciples that believed , and were baptized with water , some while before Christ gave them the holy spirit , Act. 8. Act. 19. ) instead of Christ I say you insert the spirit of God : you also wholly pervert the sence of the Apostle in that place 2 Cor. 13.5 . who speaks it not to infants , nor of them neither , but of persons that could both know and prove , and examine their own selves , of all which infants , were uncapable by your own confession ; he wrote it of them to whom he wrote it , and so indeed , though you are slow of heart to consider it , the who●● Gospel was written , viz. de adultis , & adul●orum officiis , of grown person whether parents or children , and their duties , but not for the use of infants in ●●fancie at all . In the next place upon occasion of my denial that it can be made appear that infants have the holy spirit to the making of them subjects of baptism you argue it on thus . Disputation . The report of Scripture concerning them , and the necessary consequences of the former Arguments , do make it more plainly appear to any one that will not deny Scripture and reason , then the Profession of any particular person , who perhaps may be an hypocrite ( as Symon Magus ) can make it appear of himself Gods testimony being to be preferred before mans . Disproof . Here is one of the most prodigious pieces of absurditie , and contradiction of your selves , as you speak in other places , that was ever discerned to pass from men that cried out so loud ( as you do ) for libertie to reason logically since the art of Logick was found out . In that you here call the consequences of all your former Arguments necessary consequences , which is as much as to say such as conclude the thing in hand , i. e. that infants have the holy spirit necessarily , universally , and inf●llibly , for that , and no other ( were you so well skilled in Logick as you would seem to be ) is a necessary consequence , which proves the matter concluded certainly so to be yea certo ità esse , nec alitèr se habere posse : a necessary consequence is when there is tam necessarius nexus , & indissolubilis dependentia &c. such infallible dependence between the subject , and the praedicate , that the conclusion must be universally and perpetually true , whereas your conclusion , which is this , viz. That little Children have the holy spirit , as it followes not so much as probably nor possibly from all that you have here premised toward the proof on it , witness all the Disproof made of your Disputation hitherto , so much less doth it follow from them necessarily to be true , for then it must be at least truly denominated de omni , i. e. universally true concerning all little children , that they have the ho-spirit , de omni being the very lowest degree of necessity : but this for shame you cannot say , that all little children of every sort have holy spirit , no nor yet so much as all of that sort of whom you so peculiarly assert it , viz. the little children of believers , among whom , when they are at years , there are as many destitute of the holy spirit as are indued with it And in further evidence hereof that it follows not necessarily from any thing you have said that those little infants you sprinkle have the holy spirit , I appeal from your selves to your very selves , for howbeit you here affirm ( as also p. 16. ) inch a necessity in the consequences whence you conclude that infants of believers have faith and the holy spirit , yet to the utter confutation of your selves herein , you elsewhere confesse that at the best your proof can be no more then probable viz. p. 18 ▪ where you write concerning the infants of Christian parents having faith and the spirit , as if notwithstanding all that was said before to prove the certainty of it , you could not now tell well what to say to it , for as in p. 16. you acknowledged that all infants have it not , so these are your own words p. 18. viz. the spirit is not bound to work it in all the children of Christian parents , nor barr'd from working it in any of the children of infidels , so that no judgement of science can be passed till the acts themselves be seen and examined for a posteriori onely ( and yet by the way be it known unto you that every necessary consequence demonstrates a priori ) q the discovery of habits it made : that unlesse it could be certainly presumed what children have the habit , what have not , for the working of the spirit is not known to us , he is not bound nor yet bard , there can be no conclusion made . In which words see how plainly you acknowledge that no conclusion can be made of it , that infants of Christians have the habit of faith , i. e. it is a thing that doth not necessarily follow , and cannot appear in infancy at all , nor be certainly presumed , whether they have or have it not , till they come to years , and be seen to act , so that then it may be known by your own confession , and yet in this place I am now in hand with you say no more nor lesse , but in effect the clean contrary , as also p. 16. where you seem to wonder almost , and fault the difficulty in mens understandings that there are at all any doubts in them about their having it , avouching that the Scriptures by necessary consequences confirme the thing viz. that they have it , That the report of Scripture concerning little children , and the necessary consequences of the former arguments do make it appear , yea plainly , yea more plainly then the profession of any particular person at years can make it appear of himself . O Earth , Earth , hear the reasonlesse round abouts of these Logicians , they tell us in one place , that it is to be concluded by no lesse then necessary consequences , that believers infants ( for of such onely they assert it ) have faith and the holy spirit : by and by ( to go round again ) they tell us that it cannot be certainly presumed what children have it , what have not , that the working of the spirit is not known to us , he is not bound to work it in all the children of Christian parents , nor barr'd from working it , in any of the children of Infidels , so that there can be no conclusion made : in one place they tell us that no judgement of science , concerning these or those infants having the holy spirit and faith , can be passed in their infancy , till the acts themselves be seen and examined i. e. till they come to years , and shew forth some fruits , and it appear by some acts and professions of it , for a posteriore onely the discovery or habits is made : but elsewhere ( to go round again ) they tell us that it doth more plainly appear concerning believers infants in their infancy , that they have faith and the holy spirit to any one , that will not deny Scripture and reason , then the profession of any particular person at years admitted to baptism , can make it appear of himself , as if it could not half so well appear a posteriore when we are at years and capable to profess and act faith , and shew forth the fruits of the spirit , whether we have faith and the spirit yea or no ; as it may do a priori i. e. in infancy , before any act of faith or fruit of the spirit can be discovered , seen or examined . Moreover ( to animadvert this present passage of yours yet a little further ) wheras you say here , that the report of Scripture concerning little infants , which is Gods testimony , and to be preferred before mans , doth more plainly prove it that infants have faith and the holy spirit then any particular mans testimony doth prove it concerning himself , I answer , first by denying that God in Scripture gives any such testimony at all concerning little infants litterally taken , that they have faith and the holy spirit . Secondly , if that phrase Mat. 18.6 . viz. these little ones which believe in me could have any such construction as of little infants litterally , yet I deny that he speaks of them any otherwise then by a Prosopeiâ as I said before . Thirdly , if it were to be proved ( as it never can be ) that he speaks there of infants , and not figuratively neither , but plainly and properly , yet t is most plain that he speaks but indifinitely , not particularly of one infant more then another , or of Christians infants more then of infidels , so as that you can thereupon take on you ( as you daily do ) to distinguish which have the spirit which have not , and accordingly to admit these to baptism , and debar those , yea you your selves do ore and ore express it p. 5.6 . that what the Scripture declares Infants to be , it declares them so to be in generall , specially while any particulars of them have not yet barrd themselves by actual sin , or deserv'd to be exempted from what the Scripture hath in general declared them to be : so that all this that you have brought thus far hath not the weight of a feather , to warrant your good opinion of one infant above another , and your practise of baptism to this or that particular infant ( suppose a believers ) rather then an unbelievers . It would be no plain but a muddy , totter'd confus'd implicit shufling kind of argumentation for me , if I were to give account why I baptize this or that particular man or woman , and not others to argue thus indifinitly ( as you do all along ) viz. No man may forbid them to be baptized that believe and have the spirit . But the Scripture declares that men and women may believe , and have the spirit . Ergo men and women must be baptized . If I should ( I say ) go on thus in generals onely not making it appear , that ther 's any faith at all in these individuals whom I baptize , more then in others , I should take him for little better then a fool , who should take me for a wise man in so arguing , yet so and no otherwise do you argue , whilst when we put you to prove that those infants whom you baptize have title to it , in contradistinction to heathens infants , whose right to baptism you deny , you give us your account in these indeterminate terms viz. Those that have faith and the holy spirit may be baptized . But the Scripture testifies that little children have faith &c. Ergo little children may be baptized . I say what a bald way of arguing is this ? wherein you conclude no more concerning the particular infants , whose right to baptism we put you to plead , while you shut out other , then concerning those very infants also whom you so shut out . This is just as silly as if you being put to prove your own particular salvation before Iudas's should do it thus viz. Such as believe shall be saved ; But men believe . Ergo men shall be saved . Without making any proof of your own faith in particular , whose salvation you would so prove above his , whereas you should of right argue onward from the Major thus viz. We believe , and Iudas did not . Ergo we shall be saved and not he . And so had you dealt down rightly , and plaid above board in your Disputation , sith believers infants in particular is the subject in hand between us , you should have spoken plainly thus , viz. All and only those infants that believe are to be baptized . But all the infants of believing parents , and those infants onely believe . Ergo all and onely those infants are to be baptized . But you know of your own selves this would be too broad a discoverie , the Minor being so apparently false , that you cannot hide your halting by it from the view of the very vulgar , if you should so express it : for he that hath but half an eie may see , that as there is no more faith to be seen , so the Scripture declares no more faith to be in believers infants , than in the infants of unbelievers ; or if you will needs have the Minor in such general and indefinite terms , yet at least grant us a fair Conclusion concerning those particular infants you dispute aboue , no less than that can amount to so much as ingenuity , and then it must run thus , viz. Those that believe and have the holy spirit and so right to the Kingdom of heaven are to be baptized . But the Scripture doth in general declare little children to be such as believe , have the spirit and right to the Kingdome . Ergo , the infants of Believers , and these infants onely are to be baptized . But then you cannot so well shrowd your shuffling from any observant eie , it being equally absurd to argue to universals from meer particulars , and to some particulars only from universals , or to these individuals from indefinite declarations , and verily take your Minor term little children , which you so frequently Syllogize by indiscrimination not expressing what little children , or else indefinitely and more restrictively for some only , not naming which , it s equally ridiculous to argue thus , viz. The Scripture gives good report of little infants in general . Therefore believers infants only have faith and the holy spirit , and thereby right to baptism , and not any other infants ▪ Or thus , The Scripture speaks well of little infants indefinitely , i. e. of some at least ( though not all , and we know not which ) as having faith , the spirit and right to baptism . Therefore undoubtedly these little infants whom we baptize are well spoken of in that kind and must be baptized . As t is to argue thus , The Scripture declares that John Baptist had the holy spirit . Eego all the infants of believing parents must be supposed to have it in infancy and may thereupon be baptized . Yet these are but as it were the several streins which you dispute in , which put all together into a bag , and shuffle as much as you will that which comes out first wil be a sensless non sequitur , do what you can . But you offer concerning this & that particular infant , viz. a believers , of whom I denied that if it were brought unto you together with a heathens , the spirit could more appear to you to be in it than in the other , you offer I say to make it appear that that infant should appear to have the holy spirit above the other ; for that was indeed the business I then put you to prove , and this you do as well as those may be said to do , who by mending make their mater worse than t was before , whisest there is not a tittle to be found in your Argument , which doth not as fully prove the holy spirit to be in all infants , as in any at all : on this wise it runs . Disputation . Da That which to doubt of is breach of Christian charity doth sufficiently appear . ri But to doubt these little children have the holy Ghost is a breach of Christian charity i Ergo that these little children have the Holy Ghost , doth sufficiently appear . The Minor is proved thus . To doubt that these little children are such as the Scripture in generall hath declared them to be , and that they have right to the kingdome of heaven &c. is a breach of Christian charity , whose rule is , Praesumere unumquenque bonum , nisi constet de malo ; the Apostle saying 1 Cor. 13.3.5 . it thinketh no evil , charity believeth all things ; especially since it cannot appear that those have by any actuall sin bard themselves or deserved to be exempted from the general state of litle infants declared in Scriptur●s . Ergo , To doubt that they have the Holy Ghost is a breach of Christian charity . Disproof . Besides the falsity of both the premises , there 's no more at all concluded from them concerning any one infant , then might ( if they were true indeed ) be as truly concluded from them concerning all . First O the rottenness and infirmitie of the Major ! it is most manifestly fals , for there are many things , which to doub● of may be a breach of Christian charity , which yet do not at present sufficiently appear . To doubt that this or that particular infant will hereafter live holily , and imbrace the Gospel , may be a breach of Christian Charity , whose rule is ever to hope the best , till it sees the contrary , and yet that this or that particular infant will live holily and imbrace the Gospel when he comes to age , doth not yet so sufficiently appear , but that ( as more plainly as things appear with you in infancie then at age by particular profession ) it may more sufficiently appear when they are grown up , yea till then it appeareth not at all . The Minor also is false , for to doubt that this or that infant hath at present the holy spirit is no breach of Christian charity at all ; sith ( what hopes soever we may have of them as to the future ) yet at present there is no evidence that they have it , nor yet any promise at all that it shall be given to them in infancy , nor at years neither till they believe and obey the Gospel : and as there is no promise of it to them in infancie , so in meer infancy there is no such use of it to them , as t is promised to be of unto believers ; neither doth it either quicken , inlighten , convince , convert , comfort , or any other way officiate as a seal of redemption , and remission of sins to such as have no sins as yet to be remitted . Secondly , if both these premises were as true as you suppose them , yet would it follow no more from them , nor from all you say toward the proof of either of them that believers infants have the holy spirit , then it would that unbel●evers infants have it : in the evincing of which I shall only transcribe your Syllogism , and proof of the Minor , and instead of your term these little children , write little children of infidels , and so leave you , and all the world to judge , whether your own Argument doth not as clearly conclude unbelievers infants to have the holy spirit , as the infants of believers , and so consequently that all have it if any at all as well as some . That which to doubt of is a breach of Christian charity doth sufficiently appear . But to doubt that little children of infidels have the holy Ghost is a breach of christian charity . Ergo that little children of infidels have the holy Ghost doth sufficiently appear . The Minor is thus proved . To doubt that little children of infidels are such as che Scripture in generall hath declared them to be , and that they have right to the kingdome of heaven , &c. is a breach of Christian Charity , whose rule is presumere unumquemque bonum , nisi constet de malo , The Apostle saying in 1 Cor. 13.3.5 . it thinketh no evil , Charity believeth all things , it hopeth all things ; especially since it cannot appear , that the little children of infidels have by any actual sin bard themselves , or deserved any more then others to be exempted from the General state of little children declared in Scripture . Ergo to doubt that little children of infidels have the holy Ghost , is a breach of Christian Charity . In which though both propositions be flatly false , yet I call heaven and earth to witness whether all that you bring in proof of the Minor do not prove it as much breach of Christian charity to doubt that any infants , as t is to doubt that believers infants have the holy spirit , one infant having no more deserved ill by actual sin then another . Thus all that ever you have done hitherto is utterly undone , for the Argument you began upon , and the basis of your building is , that believers infants ( for their baptism only you plead , denying the baptism of other infants , as well as we ) have the holy spirit , this upon denial of any sufficience in all your former proofs to make it appear , is at last undertaken by you to be made sufficiently appear in this last Syllogism ; which if it do not make it as sufficiently appear concerning unbelievers infants ( considering your own matter used to prove the Minor ) as concerning the other , then my candle is quite gone out , but if it do then surely the very light that is in you is utter darkness . In the next place , you dispute upon us by way of Question and Interogation , thus , Disputation . 1. How do those men and women that are baptized at years make it appear to those that baptize them , that they have faith and the holy spirit ? If it be answered by their profession . 3. Whether their profession , since it is possible they may lie , can make it appear infallibly ? If it be answered no. 3. What judgement then can they that baptize them passe upon them to be the subjects of baptism ( as they call them ) whether any other than that of charity ? If it be answered that of charity . T is replyed , then let them passe the same judgement upon those little infants of whom in general the Scripture hath given so good a report , and against whom in particular no exception can be raised , and the controversie between us is at an end . Disproof . First whereas you quere how those we baptize make it appear that they have the holy spirit before we baptize them . I answer I know no necessity of making ir appear that persons have the holy spirit before their admission to baptism , for though we find once that God Anticipated his promise , and gave the holy spirit before baptism , Act. 10. yet I know not , nor yet do you , any promise there is , whereupon in an ordinary way we can expect it , of receiving the holy spirit of promise till after faith , repentance obedience , turning to God , baptism , and asking of it , Prov. 1.23 . Iohn 7.38.39 . Act. 2.38 . chap. 5.32 . chap. 8.16.19 . Luke 11.13 . Ephes. 1.13 . Secondly , as for the holy spirits appearing infallibly . I answer first it may possibly appear infallibly to be in some , in whom it is , as Act. 10.44.45.46.47 . by sundry fruits , and manifestations of it , which may warrant us to say God is in them of a truth : Mat. 7.16.17.18.19.20 . 1 Cor. 12.7 . 1 Cor. 14.25 . It may I say undoubtedly appear to be in men and women , but cannot and way at all so appear to be in infants , if we may believe your selves , who tell us p , 8. that infants have not the exercise and fruit of faith , and p. 18. that instruction of the understanding in matter of faith in some sort must go before any act of faith can be discovered , and that no judgement of science can be past upon infants , till the acts themselves be seen and examined , for a posteriore onely the discovery of habits is made , and that unlesse it could be certainly presumd what children have it , what have not there can be no conclusion made . And howbeit I am not of the seekers mind , that an appearance of the holy spirit in any person before baptism in water doth exempt him from it , but am well assured that it strictly rather ingages him to it , or else Peter could not have commanded them in name of the Lord to be baptiz'd in water , upon whom the holy spirit fell Act. 10. but must rather have forbid it , as frustraneous , and altogether superfluous ; yet that the spirit should appear at all to be in men , in order to their baptism , much more that it should appear infallibly to be in them , is a matter of no necessity that I know of , sith in the word it s not required that persons be baptized with the holy spirit first in order to their baptism with water , but that they be first baptized in water , in order to their receiving the holy spirit Act. 2.38 . for the baptism of the spirit as t is promised onely to believers ; so we believing , obeying the Gospel , and asking the holy spirit , t is signified to us as one thing that shall be given among the rest , in that very way of water baptism : so that its enough for us ( as to the baptism of persons ) to take cognizance of it that they believe and repent , which things though they cannot do without the spirit performing its common office of striving , drawing , moving , inlightning , convicting of good and evil , sin and righteousness &c. in all which it acts to the whole world , Gen. 6. Rom. 1.20 . Iohn 16.8 . Act. 7.51 . yet they not only may do them without , but must do them before they can by promise expect the spirit , in those special respects , wherein he is promised to believers , and calld that holy spirit of promise . And now because you ask how we know they have faith whom we baptize ? I answer by their profession , which gives though not infallibility ; yet by your leave , for all your preferring the Eulogies given in general to all infants above any mans personal profession for himself in this case a far clearer and better grounded judgement of charity concerning them , that they have faith , then that you have concerning infants , which at best is but charity mistaken for cruelty , whilst it takes that to be in infants , and that on pain of their damnation too they dying without it , viz. believing see p. 8. which infants are utterly uncapable of ; and whilst it takes even that too , without which it holds no infants are saved , to be in but very few infants viz. believers infants onely , and so damns all other dying infants , which are far more innumerable , and as capable of faith , and as little barring themby actual sin from salvation , and as little deserving damnation , as the other , so that whether we or you plead the cause of innocent infants let the world judge . And whereas you suppose that because in charity onely we judge men and women to believe , therefore we passe no other judgement then that of charity onely on them to be the subjects of baptism : herein you grossely mistake our grounds of baptizing , for thought that of charity onely is the judgement whereby we judge them to be believers , yet that is not the onely judgement whereby we judge them to be the subjects of baptism , but as to that we go upon a judgement of certainty and infallibility also , for though it be not infallible to us that every one that professes to believe , doth as truly believe as he professes , yet this is infallible to us concerning him that professes viz. both that he professes , and also that professing to believe with all his heart , so that we in charity may judge him so to do , whether he lie or no , he is by the rule of the word quoad nos a warrantable , undoubted , and ( as no infant is ) infallible subject of baptism , for the word requires us to baptize such , as after our preaching the faith to them , do truly professe to believe whether they believe as truly as they profest or no , for that indeed is not so infallible to us , but it warrants us not to baptize any infants , who can neither believe not professe . Moreover sith you say let us pass the same judgement upon little infants as you do , of whom in generall say you the Scripture gives so good a report , and against whom in particular no exception can be raised , and so the controversie shall be at an end . I tell you we do passe not the same , but a far surer judgement then that of charity upon infants dying in infancy ; and have an hundred fold more clear , and more tender opinion of them then yourselves , whilst we have from the word well grounded hopes and assurance that no dying infant is damned , but you with over pleading the bare outward priviledges of some , most ignorantly damn 20 dying infants to one . But as to your judgement of charity concerning infants believing , and being thereby inrighted to baptism , or that same judgement of charity which we act toward professors of faith ; you may dream as long as you will on such erroneous Enthusiasm , but those that are awake to righteousnesse , and resolved to sin no more by popish superstition , know well enough that infants ( though nere the worse for want on t yet ) cannot believe in Christ of whom they are not capable to hear , much less can they professe so to do , and thereby give that good ground , which right charity must have , whereupon to build her faith of this , i. e , to believe that they do believe , and believing are certainly to be baptized , so that we have charity well grounded concerning infants , and such as comparatively to which your tender mercy to millions of them is meer cruelty , and yet the controversie is not ended , nor is likely to come to an end in such a way . Give me leave therefore a little to play upon you here with your own weapons , and to call for an answer from you to your own queres , and so it may be in a fair way towards an end in time , whereas then you plead the baptism of believers infants and no others , upon such a sufficient appearance that they have faith and the holy spirit . I ask First how do these make it appear that they have faith and the holy spirit since they cannot do it by profession . Secondly , how far forth do they make it appear to you ? infallibly ? or but probably ? your selves say not infallibly , for the spirit is not bound to all the children of Christian parents , nor barrd from any of the children of infidels . Thirdly , what judgement do you passe upon believers infants to be the subjects of baptism , rather then other infants ? that of charity ? or that of certainty ? that of certainty you disclaim p. 18. in these words , no judgement of science can be passed , till the Acts of faith themselves be seen and examined , and in these also viz. unlesse it could be certainly presumed what children have the habit , what have not , for the working of the spirit is not known to us , he is not bound nor barrd , there can be no conclusion made . That of charity then is the onely judgement you passe on these , and whereby you judge believers infants and no other , to have faith , the spirit and right to baptism , which charity teacheth us praesumere &c. to believe and hope all things , & hope the best concerning all till ye see the worst , especially since litt●e children of believers have not by any actuall sin barrd themselves , or deserved to be exempted from the generall state of little children declared in Scriptures . Well then to close up all , let me but desire you to passe the same judgement of charity on all little infants , as you do on some , even upon the little ones of unbelievers , Infidels , Turks and Pagans ( whilst infants ) of whom in general , and indiscrimmatim the Scripture gives a good report , not commending believers infants above them , and against whom in particular no exception can be raised , more then against the other , saving that one fault ( of theirs ) onely that they were not born of believings parents , which I hope you have so much charity as to pardon . Hope , I say as well of the infants of unbelieving parents , that they have faith and the holy spirit , specially since it cannot appear that these have by any actual sin barred themselves , or deserved any more then the other to be exempted from the general state of little infants declared in Scripture , and then the controversie between you and me , which is whether little children born of believing parents only , may be lawfully baptized , is like to be at an end , for then certainly you will either agree to it that all infants in the world , even of infidels , Turks , and Pagans ( these being in the judgement of Charity as undeserving damnation as others ) may be and are ( dying in infancy , though this with you is as heinous a thing as to ●ay the Divels may be saved p. 7. ) in as much possibility to be saved , and so at least in as much right as the others to be baptized , or else that no infants at all ( it being not possible to be presumed certainly which have the spirit , and which not , and charity judging a like of all , till it see a difference ) are at all to be baptized , both which being the very truth , I am content for my part to agree with you therein with all my heart . To which Dilemma I am well enough assured you can answer nothing in the least measure satisfactory , as the most judicious readers ( if you Ministers inquire of them ) will undoubtedly affirm also . and so I proceed to your other Arguments . Disputation . That opinion which makes the Covenant of the Gospell worser then that under the Law , contrary to the Apostle in Heb. 8.6 . is a wicked and false opinion . But the opinion of the Anabaptists , which denieth baptism to little children , whereby a mo●ty of the Christian world is cut off at once from being members of the Church , maketh the covenant of the Gospel worser , then that under the Law , Ergo that opinion is a wicked and false opinion . Disproof . The Major here is most undeniably true for what opinion soever doth make the Gospel covenant worse then that under the Law contrary to Heb. 8.6 . is indeed both false , and wicked . But the Minor wherein you say that the denial of baptism to little infants makes the Gospel covenant worse then that under the Law , contrary to Heb. 8.6 . where the Gospel is said to be a better covenant then that of the Law , in this respect as it is established upon better promises , this is most palpably false ; yea I appeal to every man , who doth not wilfully shut his eies against the truth , to judge between us , whether our opinion or your own rather doth most clearly contradict that Scripture of your own alledging Heb. 8.6 . in order to the true discerning of which , First , Mark well what it is that is there asserted concerning the meliority of the Gospel covenant above that of law , and you shall find it to be this , viz. That the Gospel covenant whereof Christ is the Mediator is a covenant that promises better things , better injoyments , or a better inheritance then that of the Law did , whereupon it there bears the name of a better Covenant , then that of which Moses was the Mediator . Secondly , Mark whether our denial of infant baptism do at all contradict that ; for what if infants be not baptized , doth that make that the promises of the gospel are worse than the promises of the Law ? nay verily who ever is or is not baptized , the promises of the Gospel are both in our opinion , and our constant manifestation of it too in this particular , better and as far beyond the promises of the Law , as the substance is beyond the shadow , the City ir self beyond the map of it that is on the wall ; for the promises of the Gospel are of the whole world Rom. 4.13 . of a heavenly inheritance , incorruptible Canaan , Crown , Kingdome , 1 Pet. 1.5 . Iam. 2.5 . Rev. 2.10 . of eternal salvation Heb. 5.9 . and this not to the Jewes only , upon obedience to Moses voice , but to all men in case of obedience to the voice of Christ the Mediator of it , in point of faith baptism , and other things which he requites in order thereunto , of those onely which are capable to perform them ; but the promises of the Law were but of a spot of the world , of an earthly Canaan , inheritance , kingdome &c. to the posterity of one man only viz. Abraham and not to all his fleshly posterity neither ( for his posterity by Hagar and Keturah were excluded , and that covenant established with Isaac and his seed only , and that in case of obedience to the voice of Moses the Mediator of that Testament , when God should give out his mind to them by him in that covenant more perfectly then he did in the daies of Abraham , and in case of observance of the Law , whereof circumcision was a part , though given before , and an Ingagement to them to keep the whole , when it should be given , and all this but as a Map , and type for a time of the Gospel Covenant , which was made and established on better promises with a better seed , i. e. not a carnal , but spiritual seed , not such as are of Abrahams own much less of any inferiour mens flesh , but such as are of Abrahams faith , and do his works , i. e. believers themselves this is our opinion , which if it do not rather confirm then contradict that meliority of the Gospel-covenant , and its promises above that of the Law , which meliority is spoken of Heb. 8.6 . ( your very selves being Judges of it ) then surely Satan hath shut up your eyes from seeing that you see . But now as for your selves , who stand so much in vindication of the Gospel covenant , as a better Covenant then that under the Law , and that in that very respect , in which it is said to be a better Covenant Heb. 8.6 . viz. established upon better promises , I le shew you plainly how you are so far from making it better then the Law , as that you make that of the Law at least equal to it , for whereas that Scripture which you quote saies plainly that the Gospel is a better Covenant than that of the law ; forasmuch as it stands on better promises , yet that is never the better for you in your cause whose tenet utterly denies , & flatly contradicts that , for you say that the things promised in the word of the Law , which were signed , and ( as your phrase is , not ours ) sealed by circumcision , were the very same things that are promised in the word of the Gospel , and signed and ( as you say ) sealed in baptism , viz. the kingdome of heaven ; and howbeit this is most manifestly false , for in reality , though you jumble them together into one when it seems to se●ve your turn so to do , in such a confused way as preaches to the world your present ignorance in both the Law and the Gospel , the Law and Gospel are two distinct Covenants , established on two distinct kinds of promises whereof the one was typical of , and so inferiour to the other , the one an old one , and a first that vanished before the second and new one , Gal. 4. Heb. 8.6 . 13-9 . 1 — 12.18 . and though all that was then promised in the Law , and signed in circumcision , as well as circumcision it self were types of things under the Gospel yet the things then promised upon keeping the Law , and immediately signed to Abraham and all his fleshly seed by Isaac ( save Esau and his seed that sleighted it ) in that covenant of circumcision , which God gave him , were no other then that literal Canaan , that earthly land of promise flowing with milk and honey , and not the heavenly inheritance , Gen. 17.8 . &c. for they that were heirs of the other according to the Law , are not thereupon heirs of this also according to the Gospel Rom. 4.13 . Now howbeit I say that be very false , yet you asserting it that the promise under the Law , and under the Gospel is the very same , do therein deny the one to be a covenant of better promises then the other : for to say the promise of the law is the very same that the promise of the Gospel is ; is to say that the one is as good as the other , and so to contradict that of Heb. 8.6 . which saies the Gospell Testament , and the promises thereof are better then the promises under the Law. And secondly if you say the Meliority that you hold to be in the Gospel covenant consists not in the Meliority of the promises of it above the other , but in the Meliority of the administration of it , the Gospel ordinances belonging not to the same only , but to more subjects , then the ordinances of the Law , in which respect we denying Gospel ordinances to infants , which were admitted to the ordinances under the Law , and so cutting of a Moity of the Christian world from the Church , which stood members of it before do streiten the Gospel , and make it worse and of less extent the Law. I answer first , That the Meliority of the Gospel covenant spoken of in Heb. 8.6 . lies in the Meliority of the promises of it above the others , which Meliority we affirm but you deny , in saying the promises of both Covenants are one and the same , therefore it is your selves however , and not we that by your tenets make the Gospel Covenant at least no better than the Law , contrarily to that of the Apostle , Heb. 8.6 . and so your opinions and not ours are false and wicked by your own Argument . Bvt secondly if it be in very deed to make the Gospell covenant worse than the Laws ( as you say it is ) to hold infants no capable subjects of Gospel ordinances , some of which were capable subjects of the ordinances of the law , I shall first disprove your charge of us toge●her with your proof of it in that particular . Secondly prove that if notwithstanding all that I shall say toward the clearing of our selves , we must needs be held guilty of lessening the grace of God under the Gospel , in comparison of what it was under the law , because we deny the ordinances thereof to infants , to whom the ordinances of the law were dispensed , then you that judge us , condemn your selves also as being in the same kind guilty of the same , to this purpose le ts see what you bring in proof of your Minor , in the last Syllogism ; and how punctually it concludes to your present purpose , thus you argue . Disputation . Vnder the Law the seal of the Gospel Covenant was by Gods appointment set to little infants , viz. circumcision , which was the seal of the righteousnesse of faith , which is the Gospell covenant , and therefore is called by God an everlasting covenant , and that I my self confesse it to be the seal of the Gospell Covenant , and that even Ishmael onely because born in Abrahams house had right to it , and received it . Ergo this opinion denying the seal of the Gospell Covenant , which the defenders acknowledge baptism to be to little infants , makes the covenant of the Gospel worser to the spiritual seed of Abraham , then it was to the carnall seed under the Law. Disproof . How often shall I adjure you the next time you write to write no more then truth at least in matter of fact ? if you will needs utter falsehood in matter of Doctrine ? do not your selves bear me witness before all the world not above two pages behind that I denyed circumcision to be a seal of the righteousness of faith , to any but Abrahams person only , and avouched it to be no such thing to his posterity and yet how quickly have you forgotten your selves so far as to the contradicting of your selves , as well as the truth , to represent it here as if I had confessed it ? and having began to faulter , and falsifie things for your own ends , how easily do you multiply misreport , and run from ore shooes , as the Proverb is , to ore boots too , for no less than a pair of pretty ones are here recorded ; for how be it my declared judgement then was , now is and I believe ever will be , for ought you can say to clear the contrary , that circumcision ( though a seal to Abraham to honor the greatness of that faith he had , and to notify him to be the father of the faithful , as it is plainly exprest Rom. 4.11 . ) was not set as a seal in any sense at all to any other , but as a bare sign and token in their flesh to mind them upon sight thereof , immediately of the Covenant that then was , remotely as a type ( as every other thing under the law did ) of something in the Gospel Covenant viz. circumcision of the heart , and that baptism it self is no seal at all , but a bare sign of the Gospel Covenant , and is not so much as a sign , or any thing else , but a meer nullity to little infants , yet the world is here belied into the belief of it , that I confesse both that circumcision was a seal of the Gospel Covenant , and that under such a notion as a seal of that Covenant Ishmael himself had right to it , and received it , for so you expresse it p. 7. and that baptism is the seal of the Gospel Covenant , even to little infants themselves as well as others . I do therefore in answer to this last piece of yours , and in order to your better understanding of me for the future , and of the truth too , as it is in Jesus , at present professe against two things herein , First your forgeries and misrepresentations of my opinion to the world , which was not so darkly declared at that time as that you must needs mistake it . Secondly , against the falsities and mistakes that are in your own opinion in this point viz. in stiling both circumcision , as dispensd to Abrahams fleshly posterity and baptism also as dispensed not to others onely , but even to infants by the name of seals of the Covenant of grace . As for circumcision that it was not so , though I might adde much more to what hath been before spoken in proof hereof in my animadversion of your account , yet I le save my self that labor , and refer you for fuller understanding , what circumcision was , and was not , to a certain book , that is extant of one Mr. Iackson , once of Bidenden in Kent , stiled 19. Arguments , proving circumcision to be no seal of the Covenant of grace , whereunto is annexed the unlawfulnesse of Infant baptism upon that ground , of which book I must needs give testimony thus far to the world , that it being brought to me , whilst it was but a manuscript , and my self a Presbyter of your high places , in some confidence that I could answer it , how easily I might have shufled it off , had I set my self so to do I will not say , but I could not answer it solidly , nor salva consciencia , and therefore I let it alone for a time , till considering further of it , and of other things I was stirrd up to the study of by it , I was at last converted to the truth , whereupon as the best answer I was capable to give , I signed it in such wise ( as I find Luther once signed another book in the like case ) viz. memorandum that taking this book in hand at first to confute it , I was at last convinced by it . Which 19. proofs of circumcision to be no seal of the Covenant of Grace , if they be weak , and invalid , such a multitude as you are have time enough among you to disprove them , but if you yield to them , be silent and say nothing . As for baptism I confesse it to be truly and properly a sign , and that of the Covenant of Grace , remission of sins by Christ his death and resurrection , which are both not onely signified , but also lively represented , and resembled in the true dispensation of it to believers , yet that it is so much as a sign at all to infants in infancy , or when grown to years either ( if dispensed in infancy ) I absolutely deny , and affirm that the very nature , use and office of it ( as a sign to its subject ) is totally destroyed by such immature administration : for a sign ( specially proprie dictum ) that is properly , and not improperly so called in reference to that person , whose sign it is , is some outward thing appearing to the senses , through which some other thing , some inward thing is at the same time apprehended by the understanding , This is the most true and proper difinition that your Divines give of a sign in general , but in special of these signes , viz. baptism , and the supper , so Pareus and Kekermaen both do define a sign out of Austin r and so do you all define these signs viz. in oculis incurrentia signa , but such a thing baptism cannot be to infants in their infancy , nor after their infancy neither , if dispensed while they are infants , the sign and thing signified being not possible in that way to be ever apprehended both together as they must be viz. the sign by the senses , the thing signified by the understanding , and that at the same time when the sign appears to the senses , or else the sign is a meer Nullity , and of no use and benefit as a sign at all , for though infants may have the sense of the thing so as to see and feel if they were dipt in infancy , yet have they then no understanding of its meaning , and though when they come to years they are capable to gather the meaning of things , or from an appearing sign to conceive what is signified thereby , yet then the sign it self is fled out of sight , and so far out of the reach of their remembrance , that as ther 's nothing now presented , so neither ever was there any thing ( for ought they can conjecture any more then by meer human hearsay ) objected to their senses at all : when the Jewes required a sign of Christ , they required something that might be seen , what sign shewest thou that we may see and believe ? A sign then must be some memorandum , some object obvious to the senses , of that person to whom t is a sign properly taken , either continually , or at sometime or other , even then which the understanding drinks in the thing signified , else if there neither is , nor ever was any such sight or sense of the sign , as from the then , or now present appearance of it , while the understanding of the party , whose sign it is , is lively acted on the thing , then to that person the sign ( unlesse improperly , and improper signes the sacraments are not ) can possibly be no sign at all , this Pareus teacheth us to the life , p. 35.7 . where de●ining baptism and the supper to be signa in oculos incurrentia , hoc est visibilia , signs that are , or once were to be seen by him whose signes they are , even at that time while he is to learn something by them , he further backs it , as I have set down in his own words in the margent , and for the use of the unlearned Englished thus viz. for they ought to be such that they may signifie things invisible , for if they ought to be helps to our faith , they must be perceived by the external sense , whereby the internal sense is moved , for what thouseest not is no sign to thee , he that makes an invisible signimplies a contradiction , and makes the sign not a sign at all ; they are invisible things , not signes , otherwise also the signes could not so much as signifie the things , much lesse confirm them , because an uncertain thing would be confirmed by a thing as uncertain as it self hence the antients define a Sacrament thus , a sacrament is a visible sign of some invisible grace . So then we see that according to your selves a sign is no sign at all to him , that is never seen all by him , who is to observe it , and that too at sometim● or other after he comes to observe what is meant by it , whereupon I testifie that what was done to us in infancy had it been the true sign of Christs own institution viz. baptism as t was rather a sign of meer mans institution viz. the sign Rantism , and the sign of the crosse , neither was nor is , nor ever will be any sign at all to you or me , if at any time it be a sign to vs it must be either while we are infants , or when grown to years , but not while infants , for then we apprehend not the thing signed , nor when at years , for then we apprehend not the sign . How mighty your memories , and how exquisite your apprehensive powers are to bring these two , I mean the sign and thing signified together in your thoughts I know not , but I plainly acknowledge ( notwithstanding Dr Channels councel to the Auditory at the Dispute at Petworth Ian. 5. 1651 to remember , and call to mind what was signified to them in their infant baptism ) that as in infancy I perceived not to what purpose I was signed , so now ( save what I have by hearsay ) I perceive not , nor ever did of my self to my best remembrance that I was then so signed at all . As for that true baptism , which I have since submitted to some 4 or 5 years ago , as it then preached ( so far as a sign may be said to preach ) most precious things to my understanding , so it lively appeared to my senses , and left such impression upon them and such an Idea thereof in my mind , that me thinks I both see and remember it still , and so shall I hope have good cause to do whilest I live . I conclude then that to signifie things to infants by baptism in infancy is a meer blank , and utter nullity , a silly cypher , that stands for nothing and is of no use to them at all . Yea as it would be thought no better then meer mockery , or witless wisdom , for any Priest to stand talking , and making signs over one a sleep , while he is understandingly sensible of nothing , and then after he is awake , and as little a ware of any thing as before , begin to make the application , and will him to divine both what was done to him , by whom , and why , and to take cognizance and clearer evidence of such , and such things , by the same token that they were told him , and signified to him by what was done while he was asleep , by certain signs , which he never saw yet , nor never shall : so is it to me to baptize meer infants : or as it were no better than flat folly for any father ( in a serious and not lusory way ) to shew the form of the City Ierusalem to his infant 〈◊〉 infancy by the figure , and draught of it in a Map , saying look here child , this stands for the Temple , this signifies , and sets forth the manner of Mount Sion , and and all this is shewed thee now , that thou maiest remember it another time , that Ierusalem is thus and thus scituated , and then when he comes to age ( without any more resemblance of it to him in the map ) to indoctrinate him in what was done in his i●fancy , and bid him reflect back , and call to mind what was shewn him in that map , in which it was manifested to him what manner of city Ierusalem was , and other such like ridiculous stuff and prate of the things so long since done , that they are now flown both out of sight and mind ; even such and no better is it , yea such piteous poor , and meer painted piety is it , for persons , whether Priests or parents to stand prating to and ore poor ignorant infants , and signing them at a Font or Bason , whilest ( if they be not a sleep , as my own silly experience teaches me they have been many a time , while I have been sprinkling them in the midwives , or the mothers armes yet ) they are at best no better then asleep , because as heedless of what 's done , saying to them very seriously by name , as if they would have them mind what is said , Thomas — Anne — &c. I baptize thee in the name of the Father , &c. in token of remission of sins , and then to sign them with the sign of the Cross , in token to them still that hereafter ( when it is impossible ) they must by what is now so clearly manifested to their senses , understand , and remember that they must not be ashamed to confess the faith of Christ crucified &c. and then when they are grown up , to set them to School to the Font again , and wish them to learn by what was once done to them there , that this and that is signified , saying , you must understand that Christ was crucified , dead and raised for the remission of your sins , and that you are now to leave your sins , to dy to them , live a holy life , take up your cross and follow him , and all these things I now inform you in by word of mouth , you must call to mind how they were most plainly manifested to you , and lively evidenced to your very external senses , and thereby to your internal senses in your baptism , which is a visible sign to you , and a most sensible demonstration therof , a most lively preaching and resembling of them before your eies ; these things you must remember by the same token , that you had once such a most notable , remarkable , memorable matter done unto you ( so long since that you cannot possibly observe , perceive , discover , remember , that ever it was done at all , but as we tell you ) Babist . This reflects with no small disparagement on the wisdome of God in appointing the sign circumcision to be set to infants even in their infancy . Baptist. No such matter ; for God did not appoint it to be set to infants for any such end , or use as to be a sign of any thing to infants themselues in their infancy , but when at age . Babist . Nor do we set baptism to infants for any such end as to signifie any thing to them in their infancy , but when they come to years . Baptist. Circumcision being a permanent mark in the flesh remained Gen. 17.13 . and though set in infancie , yet was a sign visible to the persons to whom it was set , and to be seen by them as long as they lived , but to baptism being a transient thing , which vanishes soon after the dispensation , without making or leaving any mark or impression upon the body , whereby any one that notes it not while dispensed to him , can possibly be capable to note it another time it is gone and lost , and can be no sign to him any more for ever . A permanent sign may be set at any time without prejudice to their use of it as a sign , to whom it is set , but the use of a transient sign must be made when it is set , and it must be set at such times when its subject is capable to catch the meaning of it whilest it passes before the sences , and upon occasion to recollect an Idea of what was done , or else it perishes from being a sign to those persons from thenceforth even for ever . Babist . Then Circumcision might have been as well forborn till the persons were of years , the use being not made till then , yet God who doth nothing in vain , and out of season , did for all that enjoin it long before , why therefore may not baptism by the like reason . Baptist. Besides that baptism is transient and that permanent , which is enough to satisfie in this particular , there was much other use and end for which circumcision was rightly dispensed to the infants of the Jews , for which there 's not the like reason in baptism , as namely to distinguish and sign them out to be what they were , viz. heirs of the kingdome by birth . Babist . That is the very end on which we baptize infants and no other , viz. to sign and distinguish the seed of believers from the seed of unbelievers , and sign them out to be what they are by birth , and what when they come to years they learne that they were made in Baptism , viz. heires of the Kingdome of Heaven . Baptist. When you have the same evidence of believers seed in infancy ( that the Jewes had of theirs , viz. that they are heirs of the kingdom , then I will allow you to do as they did , viz. to sign and distinguish them as such : but of the one of these you have evidence in nonage , not so of the other : the kingdome that the Jews by very nature were heirs of according to the promise was that of the Earthly Canaan , of which ( and that as a type ) they were apparent heirs by no other then very natural birth , and that so soon as ere they were born , and therfore full well within a while might they be signed . But that which you take upon you so timely to sign persons as heirs to in baptism , is the Antitype or heavenly Canaan , which no creature is an apparent heir to according to the Gospel promise , upon meer natural birth of any parents , whether Jew or Gentile , till he appear to us ( unless he dy before he hath deserved exemption by actual transgression , and then Charity teaches us , to hope as well of all as of one ) to be born by faith in Christ , which birth ( if any infants were capable of it ( as to us none are yet ) because we cannot presume which have it , and which not , the workings of the spirit being so unknown to us , that there can be no conclusion made , we cannot by dispensation give right distinction : but as in the type they sign'd them well nigh as soon as they were born with that natural birth of Abraham , Isaac and Iacob after the flesh , upon which alone they were heirs by promise of that earthly Canaan , so we sign them so soon as they appear to be born with that birth of Christ by faith , by which they are heirs of the true Canaan , and that 's all the baptism of new born babes can possibly be found any where in the word , this birth if it could be in any infant at all , at least cannot appear to be in one living infant above another , for either they dy before actual transgression hath barr'd them , and then though our hopes are the same of them all , yet are they past signing by baptism , or else they live and are seen to believe , or not believe , and so as they do , or not do they must without distinction , or respect to naturall descent , be signed or not signed alike . Baptism therefore though a sign in its nature use and office to believing men and women ; yet is never so much as a sign to that person to whom it s dispensed in infancy . But as for your signing it with the name of a seal , I should wonder much more at your ignorance , had not such a wonderful thing as ignorance been threatned to those wisemen , that teach Gods fear after mens precepts Isay 29. in that you make both your sacraments to be seals , for so runs your ordinary difinition concerning them viz. in oculis , incurrentia signa , et sigilla , considering how clear the Scripture is against you , for verily though you receive that denomination of a seal , together with all your vain conversion and worship , by tradition from your fathers , yet you never learn'd it from our fathers in the word , wherein shew me ( if you can ) from the beginning to the end ( save in Rom. 4.11 . where in anosense sense viz. not to strengthen a weak faith , but to honor great faith circumcision was set ( as Gods broad seal ) to confirm Abraham in his fatherhood ) any one of the four which you call Gods seals viz. either circumcision , or the passeover , baptism or the supper is call'd a seal by God himself . Babist . The formal term of a sign is no more to be found in Scripture to be given either to baptism or the supper , then the term of a seal , yet you grant it to be properly called a sign , and so why may it not be called a seal , though it be not so called in Scripture ? Baptist. Though the expresse denomination of a sign be not given in Scripture to either baptism or supper , yet no lesse is sounded forth in sense and signification , but the other term of seal ( as to these things ) is not consonant to the rule of faith , for verily as no other is exprest , so no more then one seal of the Gospel Covenant is so much as implied or hinted at in holy writ , and that one seal is no other then the holy spirit by which those that believe , are said to be sealed Eph. 1.13 . Eph. 4.30 . and howbeit God preacheth the Gospel to us outwardly by words , oaths , signes , and visible resemblances viz. baptism and the supper , and this in the ministration of men , who may minister to us all these , and set them close to our ears , and to our eyes , yet when he preaches it to us inwardly , so fully ; and firmly as by seal , he preaches it himself alone , and though by a baptism , yet a better baptism then that of water , that is the holy spirit , which ( though the sign may be set , first , to profest believers that are not so indeed , secondly , and this very visibly and openly to the view of others , thirdly by men like our selves ) yet first is never set to any but believers in truth , secondly , and that secretly and indiscernably to any but themselves that are seald , thirdly , by none but God himself , who onely sets that baptism close to the conscience within , which baptism no man under heaven can administer : what we set i. e. the sign may very easily be to a blank , our ministration being liable to mistake , but what Christ sets i. e. the seal that makes us most sure from himself , that cannot possibly be misplaced , for where and whensoever the spirit of God within is sent to bear witnesse , and cry Abba , i. e. father , there and then God is a father indeed : your own selves say that where the seal is , that soul is sure at that time , a real heir , and from that time forth say you also for ever , and so say I , if that soul continue for ever , cleaving to the Lord , not quenching , resisting , or so grieving that holy spirit , as to cause it to depart for ever ( for if so ther 's another tale told you from several Scriptures , 1 Chron. 28.9 . Heb. 6.4.5 . Heb. 10 29. ) But if it be so as you say , that Gods seal seals up none but such as are both true heirs by faith at present , and must necessarily abide so for ever , then first here 's an Argument ( ad hominem ) how ever , i. e. an evidence to you out of your own mouthes , that your baptism is none of Gods seal , s●th it is set by you not onely to 1000s that after it fall from him , but indeed to 1000s that never knew him their father , nor never will. I again therefore once more for all ( that I may not trouble my self with them , when I meet them in other places ) protest against these your expressions of circumcision and baptism by the name of seals , Gods seales of the Gospel Covenant &c. first as none of mine , wheresoever you are found fathering them on me , as p. 6.7.14 . Secondly as none of Gods expressions , though ( I know not how many times ore viz. p. 4.6.7.8.13.14 . ) you aver the ordinances to be Gods seals , and father that very phrase on God himself , who as he useth not such a phrase , when he speaks of those foolish things ( as the world counts them 2 Cor. 1. ) which he chuses as his outward witnesses , shews , signs and love tokens from himself to us , so he useth no such tools indeed as these Instrumental signes are , when he ministreth himself , for these he appoints men to minister in ; these are the instruments of the foolish sheapherds Zach. 11.15 . even the outward instruments which God hath chosen for the under sheapheards to act by , he uses none of these I say as his own seal and inward witnesse , for that 's no lesse then the holy spirit , which whattypes , shews and signes of the Gospel Covenant soever there have bin outwardly both before and since the Gospel begun , hath bin , is and ever shall be the onely earnest that God hath given , the only witnesse that him self hath us'd , the onely seal that he hath set in any age , whether before the law , or under the law , or under the Gospel , Psal. 51.11.12 . Eph. 1.13.4.30 . 2 Cor. 5.5 . Rom. 8.15.23 . So having removed the rubbish of rude expression , with which your last argument was clouded , and not a little over loaded ( as you delivered it ) I come now to consider it nakedly as it lies substantially enough compriz'd in these expressions viz. Vnder the Law circumcision was by Gods appointment dispensed to little infants , Ergo under the Gospel baptism must be to infants also , or else the Gospel Covenant is worse to the spiritual seed of Abraham now , then it was to his carnall seed under the law . This is in short the plain sense and ordinary way of urging this argument . By way of Answer to which let me be so bold first as to ask you this one question viz. why you stand so st●fly to have baptism dispens'd so strictly after the manner of circumcision , and yet stray and vary your very selves from the fashion of that administration in a manner as much as any men in the world ? for verily though the way of circumcision be that you stickle for , yet you stragle from it , and as to the very subject it self , vary from it as much as in any thing else ; if that be rhe rule after which men must baptize ( as you plead ) why then do ye not baptize ( for so they circumcised ) First onely males , and no females ? Secondly , all male servants upon the masters single faith , as well as male children on the fathers ? Thirdly , on the eighth day onely , and neither sooner nor later , nor one day before it nor behind it ? Fourthly , by the hands of parents , fathers , Mrs. Mothers , as well as by the hands of the Pries●s onely ? Fifthly , any where viz : at home or abroad , in Inns or other places , as occasion is , but onely or for the most part in your great stone houses ? for this is both the liberty and the bondage of your late directory , that baptism must be dispens'd by a Minister onely , not in any case by a private person , much lesse by a mother , or any woman . Secondly , in the places of publique worship onely , not in private places or privately . Thirdly , on any day , not specifying ●he eighth , so it be not unnecessarily delayed . Fourthly , to any child whether male or female for ought you expresse to the contrary , if so be the parent be a believer . Fifthly , to no man servant so far as I find on the masters belief , though a Christian may chance to hire into his house an Indian or infidel : when as its most notoriously known that thus it was then viz. that not the publique Priests onely in the publique places , but masters might and must circumcise all their male servants , fathers or mothers their male infants , on the eighth day onely , and that either at home ( as Abraham in his house Gen. 17. ) or any where else ( as Zipporah at an Inn Exod. 4.24.25.26 . ) O the prodigious proling that you Priests make from your own pattern ! how crookedly close do you keep to your own coppy ? there are about some seven several modifications of actions , in respect of which one may be said to differ from , or be like another , which for memories sake are coucht altogether in this verse of interrogatories . Quis ? quid ? ubi ? qualis ? quando ? quibus auxiliis ? cu● ? In all which if inquisition be made , how far forth your baptism and circumcision do agree or differ , though you contend or rather pretend them to be like one another in each , yet we shall find a deep disparity between them in no lesse then all . First , if we ask ( as de subjecto ) this question quis ? who is the true subject of circumcision , who of your baptism , yea even your own so circumcision-like baptism ( much more that baptism which is rightly dispensed ) how far is the one divers from the other ? though this is one of the main things wherein you profess they must be alike , for that ( as I shew'd before ) did belong to males onely , this you dispense to females also ; that to the natural infants of the Jews though the parents were known to be unbelievers ( for Ioshua circumcised the seed of all those murmurers that were cut off for unbelief ) this ( as to no natural infants at all by right , no not to the Jews infants ) so by your own confession , not to any infants whose parents are unbelievers , whereby you may see that as the law is changed , so there is a plain change also in the subjects of these two ordinances circumcision and baptism not onely as we , but as you your selves contend to have baptism dispensed , for as onely so all the male children of the Jews both might and must be circumcised though their parents were never such wicked unbelievers , but even your selves say the Jews seed are all cut off from baptism and the Gospel Church , because their parents are unbelievers ; both all the Jews and their males might be circumcised though none of them believed , while that Covenant of circumcision stood , meerly as they were of the stock of believing Abraham , but might not be baptized when the Gospel Covenant began in Iohns Baptism upon that account , unlesse they now believed in their own persons though they were of the stock of Abraham still as much as ever , nor may to this day in your own opinions . Secondly , if ( as to the nature , matter and essential form or being of the Rites themselves ) we ask the question quid ? what circumcision was , and what your baptism ? how far do they differ ? the one being a cutting off the foreskin of the flesh , the other a wetting of the foreskin of the face onely with a few drops of water , no more iike it then chalke's like cheese . Thirdly if , as to the place where , we ask the question ubi ? where circumcision was dispensed , and where your selves say baptism ought to be ? how greatly doth your manner of baptism differ from it ? and how much more then ours ? for circumcision might be dispensed any where but in the Temple , where I find not they were to be brought at all till circumcised , as Christ himself Luke 2.21 , 22. but your Rantism no where else by appointment but in your Temples ; herein I say our baptism squares more with it than yours , who pretend so much to baptize after the manner of it , for all places are to us alike , where there is conveniency of water enough to baptize in , and therefore we must except the Font and Bason . Fourthly , if , as to the quality , special properties , uses , ends and offices of these two dispensations , the question be asked in quale quid ? what were the special properties , purposes , uses , ends , and offices of these two several administrations ? what things persons were specially obliged to by them ? what was specially signified to persons in them ? and such like how little do these look each like the other ? for circumcision tied men to the observation of a certain carnal , cumbersome , costly service , Law , Priest-hood , in order to their inheriting the Earthly Canaan , which all are now clean changed and confiscate , but baptism , as dispensed by us according to the word , binds to the observation of another Law , and the voice of another Lawgiver , High Priest , and Prophet Christ Iesus , whom Moses spake of , and God hath now raised up accordingly , and this in order to a future enjoiment of a heavenly inheritance typed out by the other ; and as for your rantism it ties to neither this nor that , but to a certain service , and law of Ordinances , and Gospel , and Church posture , and priesthood of mans own making , which one knows not well what to make of , nor what part of speech to call it but a participle , for it takes part of the Law and part of the Gospel , and is neither perfectly , but patcht up out of both by the politick power of the Priesthood , so as it may make most for the peoples painted p●etie , and their own pay together , in order to their labor for their pains Mat. 15.9 . Again , Circumcision pointed as a type indeed at the circumcision of the heart but as a sign so it signified a promise of outward felicity in Canaan , and that Christ should come of Abraham after the flesh , &c. true baptism signifies the death , burial , and resurrection of Christ , and remission of sins by his being crucified , and such things as were no wayes resembled by the other , your rantism just nothing . Fiftly , if as to the time of those two services , the question be askt Quando ? when circumcision , and when your baptism are by right to be dispensed ? how miserably do you your selves misse of hitting right with it here too ? though it be a main matter you intimate to us your imitation of circumcision in , circumcision being punctually to be performed on the eighth day , true baptism not till the day wherein persons appear to believe withall their heart , and so not in any infancy at all but the infancy of our faith , and even your rantism , though in infancy , as circumcision was , yet on what day you please besides the 8th , sometimes after a fourt'night , or a moneth , and sometimes at the half year or years end . Sixthly , if , as to the administrator , it be ask quibus auxiliis ? by whose hands these ordinances are to be administred ? how different are they ? circumcision being dispensed by the Master , Father , or mother , but as for baptism ( as you dispense it at least ) none but men in holy orders are to administer it , in which you go not only besides the Gospel which records Ananias , and Philip dispensing baptism , who were but gifted disciples , and neither of them in any orders to the ministery , save that Philip was in office as a Deacon to look to the poor , by vertue of which Deaconship if you Presbyters judge ( as the Bishops did before you ) that Philip baptized , and not rather by his Discipleship , I deem you will dote at last as much as they ; but also besides the Law you live by . Seventhly , if ( as to the account and warrant ) it be demanded Cur ? why they circumcised infants , and why you baptize them ? how far do you fall short of the Jewes in this also ? for they had express precept , and institution to circumcise infants over and over again repeated in Moses Testament , besides the president of Abrahams own family the self same day wherein the command was given to circumcise all the males at eight daies old , whereas if that which we call the New Testament , be indeed the Register of Christs will there is , as is confest by the most ingenuous of your coat , witness Mr. Hunton at a publike dispute at Warbleton in Sussex , neither one-plain precept , nor so much as one president of such a matter as baptizing infants : God never appointed such a thing , neither , to speak in that figure in which God speaks of himself Ier. 19.5 . came it at all into his mind . So like are circumcision , your rule for baptism , and your baptism which you profess to act in by that rule of circumcision , that to say the truth your run out from your rule in every line you write after it , so that I much wonder that you above all men should argue baptism comes in the room of circumcision , so that they are both as one , and the one must be ordered after the example of the other , who in your baptism come no nearer circumcision then so . For verily they meet one another very little nearer then in that general denomination of a sign or token of a Covenant , in which the Rainbow may be said to be like them both . That two things should be one thing , for so with you your Rantism and circumcision are , and yet be adequate well-nigh in nothing is riddle me what 's this with a witness . And by all this we may see how forcible your Argument is that is drawn from the Analogy of baptism with circumcision , which Argument your Dr. Featly saies may be truly called , in regard of the Anabaptists , Pons Asinorum , a bridge which these asses could never pass over , for to this day they could never , nor , quoth he , hereafter will be ever able to yield a reason , why the children of the faithful under the Gospel are not as capable of baptism , as they under the law of circumcision p. 40. but by your leave , through whom that Doctor being dead yet speaketh , the Dialogy and discrepation that is between , not only your Rantism , as is above mentioned , but also the true baptism and circumcision , is such a reason to the contrary , as all the Classes of Clergy men combind together in one Synodicall Convention , will never be able clearly to refute as long as they breath . As therefore to the Argument of yours which I am now in hand with , I come now directly to denie the consequence thereof , for it follows not in any wise that because circumcision was by Gods appointment dispensed to little infants therefore baptism must be so now , and that not only for those manie reasons above specified , but even for this also , because God did appoint that circumcision should be dispensed to infants under the Law ; but did never appoint anie such thing as that baptism should be dispensed to infants under the Gospel , nor is there the least tittle in all the Testament of Christ tending to the manifestation of one crumb of commission for that matter . Babist . What you jest is not Mat. 28.19 . commission plain enough to baptism infants , where all nations are bid to be discipled and baptized ? Baptist. That verie Scripture which is commonly conceived by you , and consequently urged as Christs commission to baptize infants , so plainly comm●ssionates the very contrarie , that if some self interest or other had not besotted you besides the true sence of the spirit in that place , you could not be so abominably absurd as to argue infants baptism from it as you do , for to say nothing here , as anon happily I shall , of the contradictorie doings that is among your prime pen-men and patrons of infant-sprinkling in their verdicts about this place , some ventring to draw it in to the vindicating of that foppery , some , seeing they cannot thus maintain it , willing enough to let it ly dead , supposing themselves pretty well apaied from this place , if they can but barely evade the receiving of bangs from it ; and therefore will not be too busie with it themselves , but are content to assert no more then this from it , that it is no prohibition of infants baptism . Of this sort is Dr. Holmes , who p 7. of his Animadversions , disclaimes it to be Christs commission to the Apostles , and Dr Featley , who , howbeit he is so bold as to mention it as Christs command for baptizing of infants , and to argue from it as such p. 39. yet in answer to Mr Cornwell , asserting infant baptism to be against Christs commission Mat. 28.19 . Mark 16.15 , 16. professes , that there is no mention at all of infants in either of those texts , much less a prohibition to baptize them p. 62. among those that assault us from this place Dr Featley and Mr Marshall are the Chrieftanes and this is the common way of argumentation from it , viz. All nations are to be baptized . But children are of the Nations . E●go , &c. To this purpose your approved Dr Featley argues , but as falsly as a man can likely do : whose Syllogism is this p. 39. viz. That which extends to all Nations belongs to children as well as men , for childern are a great part if not the half of all nations . But Christs command of baptizing extends to all nations , Mat. 28.19 . Mark 16.15.16 . Ergo Christs command of baptizing belongeth to children and they ought to be baptized as well as men . On this wise also Mr Marshall reasons in his answer to Mr. Tombes p. 214. by way of repetition of what he more largely delivered in his Sermon , viz. In every nation the children make a great part of that Nation , and they are alwaies included under every administration , whether promises , or threatnings , priviledges , or burdens , mercies , or judgements , unless they be excepted . Much after the same sort also doth Mr. Blake express himself , p. 20. of his birth priviledge concerning Mat. 28.19 . viz. The words there comprize infants , they are no more excluded then men at years , serving to make up a Nation as well as parents , the infants of any nation make a part of the nation . But who would think such goodly geer as this should manifest it self to the whole world , as a fruit of the most serious meditations of men so eminently polemical as they by the Clergy are esteemed to be in their several Tracts in this point , and that it should pass without the least item of correction for it , from any one of their brethren , who rather seem all to consent to , then contradict them ? However I shall make as serious Examen of it as I can . First , then is it so Sirs , that what ever administration extends to all nations belongs to infants therein , as well as men , so that they are no more excluded , from it , then men at years ? how is it then that preaching the Gospel , and prayer with laying on of hands for confirmation , for the spirit , which D● Holmes dotes was dispensed to these infants that were brought to Christ , and therfore much more baptism in infancy , and as a proof thereo● brings testimony that it was never used in the primitive times to be dispensed till past infancy ▪ how is it ( I say ) that these , and also fellowship in the supper are by your very selves denyed to belong to infants in infancy ? what is the reason that you exclude infants here ? are not these priviledges belonging to men , why then ( if yours and Mr Marshalls assertion be true ) not to infants as well as men ? are they not mercies , administrations , merciful administrations of God , extended to all nations ? yea is not preaching an administration to every creature that extends not to infants ? and yet ( saving Mr Marshals cunning insertion of this clause ( unlesse they be excepted ) whereby to salve his proposition , from default of falsity , though thereby he renders it plainly uslesse to his purpose ) are infants any where by name excepted from any one of these administrations , any more then they are from baptism it self ? yea is it not an administration of God extending to all nations that persons should work , or else not eat , in which infants are not included , for then must they starve , and yet no where at all excepted ? yea he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved , he that believeth not shall be damned ; Christ is the Author of eternall salvation to all them that obey him ; Christ shall come in flaming fire , taking vengeance on all them that know not God , and obey not the Gospell ; he that confesseth me before men , him will I confesse before my father which is in heaven ; he that denieth me shall be denied ; whosoever is ashamed of me and of my words of him will I be ashamed ; he that denieth not himself , and taketh not up his crosse dayly and followeth me ; and hateth not his father and mother , and his own life , and all that he hath , cannot be my disciple ; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he saith unto you , and whosoever heareth not his voice shall be cut off from among his people : if any man love not the Lord Iesus Christ , let him be Anathema Maranatha , repent and be baptized , and an hundred such like , are not these Gods Gospel-administrations of duties , promises , threatnings , priviledges , burdens , mercies , judgements extended to all nations , from which infants are not excepted ? and yet do these include and comprize infants as much as men at years ? or are infants excluded by expresse exception from any of these , any more then from that one amongst the rest viz. the duty and ordinance of baptism ? how then dare you aver so peremptorily , so universally that every administration that extendeth to all nations , belongeth to infants as well as men ? yea ( that I may shame and silence you in this out of your own sayings ) some of you , namely Mr. Marshal perceiving that if you grant that Infants did eat the passeover it will follow from that to their eating the supper , as well as from their circumcision of old to the baptism of them now , do assert that infants did not eat the passeover , yet was not the passeover an administration to the nation of Israel , from which infants were never excepted ? and if so , how then can your other sayings be true , that every administration that extendeth to the nations , belongs to infants as well as to persons at years , unlesse they be somewhere excepted ? Babist . We mean not of a formall exception , but a vertuall exception , an exception in effect at least infants must have , or else be supposed as included under every administration that is given to the nations , and thus infants are excepted from all those last mentioned precepts , promises , threats &c. forasmuch as it is most notoriously known they are not capable to do the things upon the performance , or non-performance of which those mercies and Iudgements are promised and threatned , for they cannot hear Christs voice , nor know , nor love , nor obey him , nor deny themselves , nor hate their lives , nor confesse him , nor deny him , and whereas t is said that if any will not work let him not eat , infants must necessarily be understood to be excepted there , though not by name , because they cannot work , and so ( unlesse excepted ) must perish by Gods appointment for want of food ; so concerning eating at the supper , Infants are excepted , not expressely , yet implicitly , and in effect in those words , let a man examine himself , and so let him eat , because there 's that required in order to eating there viz. self examination , discerning the Lords body and blood which infants cannot do . Baptist. T is very true , they are excepted from all these as you say implicitly , and in effect , though not expressely , but then ( let it be considered ) is there not as fair , and as clear an exception of them from baptism , as from any of these , or in particular as from that service of the supper ? in as much as theres that required in order to baptisme which infants can no more do , then they can do what 's required to the supper ? viz. to believe with all the heart , Act. 8.37 . and to be discipled i , e , to be taught , and to learn the Gospel Mat. 28.19 . If any should ask this question , what hinders why I may not eat the supper ? you would answer thus , if thou examinest thy self thou maiest eat of that bread , and drink of that cup : so when the Eunuch enquired of Philip , what hinders why I may not be baptized ? he answers him in the very same viz. if thou believest with all thy heart thou maiest : for whoever shall say these answers viz. let a man examine himself , and so he may eat , let a man believe with all his heart , so he may be baptized , or if thou examinest thy self thou mayest eat , or if thou believest with all thy heart thou maiest be baptized , are not the self same in sense and signifification , shall never go for a wise man more with me , and whoever shall say that the phrase of Philip to the Eunuchs question , what hinders why I may not ? viz. if thou believest with all thy heart thou mayest be baitized , is as not exceptive of infants from baptism , as that phrase of Paul , let a man examine himself , and so let him eat , is exceptive of infants from the supper , can seem no other to me then one , whose reason is basely captivated to some carnal interest or other , yea the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 8.37 . doth ful as much ( if not more ) imply an unlawfulnesse of their admission to baptism , that believe not with all the heart as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Cor. 11.28 . doth imply an unlawfulnesse of their admission to the supper , who do not first examine themselves , what ever exception therefore ye can find in the word of infants from the supper , the self same will I find of infants from baptism , and what ever ground of admission to baptism you shall find there for them , the same will I bring for their admission to the supper . Babist . Those places where it s said if thou believest thou mayest , he that believeth and is baptized , repent and be baptized , go teach and baptize , imply onely an unlawfulness of baptizing persons at years without instruction , belief , and repentance , and are phrases that relate to such onely , and not to infants , who may notwithstanding any thing to the contrary there exhibited , be baptized without any of these . Baptist. So you use to say still indeed of these Scriptures , that they speak of persons at age and not in non-age , and so say I too , but I wonder then where are the Scriptures that speak of infants baptism ? if all the places of Scripture that speak of baptism at all , speak onely of the baptism of adult ones and so you are fain to confesse they do when we come to examine them one after another , yea I remember that at two publique disputes , when we have put you to assign what Scripture infant baptism is commanded in Mat. 28.19 . hath bin nominated as your warrant , out of which when it hath been plainly proved that Christ commands no more in that place to be baptized , then such whom he commands also first to be instructed , reply hath been made to this purpose viz. that Christ there requires that such as are capable of instruction should be instructed first , but that hinders not why infants may not be baptized before instruction ) but if so I say I wonder still where that place is that warrants it that infants may be baptized at all , ●ith you are fain to confesse that that phrase go teach and baptize , yea even you your selves sometimes , who just before assigned it as the warrant for infant baptism , that it speaks onely of persons capable to be taught , and not of infants . As you say therefore that these places speak of the baptism of men and women onely that are capable ●o learn , believe and repent , and not exclusivly of infants , because they are not capable to do those things , who yet may be bap●ized for all that , so I say of these words , let a man examine himself , and so let him eat , they imply an unlawfulnesse in men and women only to eat the supper without self-examination , but not in infants , who being not capable to examine themselves , may ( any thing to the contrary there notwithstanding ) be admitted to the supper without it : t is men and women onely , and not children who upon non-examination of themselves are excepted . As you argue therefore that every administration to an Nation includes infants , as well as men , unlesse the be excepted , and therefore they must be baptized : I conclude the same from those premises , concerning their right to other ordinances viz. therefore they must be preacht to , therefore they must eat the supper , two administrations given to all nations , from which infants are no more excepted then from baptism . As therefore you take it for an implicit exception of infants from the supper , in that they cannot perform what is required in that place to the receiving of it , i. e. not examine themselves , nor discern the Lords body , though by name they are not excepted , so ( if you be not partial ) your own consciences will compel you to take it for at least as implicit an exception of infants from baptism , in that they are no way capable to perform those things which are required of persons in order to their admission to baptism in other places viz. nor to believe with all the heart , nor to confesse sin , nor amend their lives , nor repent , nor call on the name of the Lord , all which were required of adult ones that come to baptism , as we see Mat. 3. Act. 2. Act. 8. Act. 22. and also in the Rubrick where it being askt what is required of persons to be baptized ? answer is made thus , viz. repentance whereby they forsake sin : and faith whereby they stedfastly believe the promises of God made to them in that sacrament , though by name they be not excepted in any of these places . Your cui signatum ei signum nisi obstet &c. your thredbare Argument viz. to whom the thing signified belongs to them the sign , unlesse there be some impediment or in capacity to perform what is required in order to the receiving of the sign , if it had one farthing worth of force in it to give infants accesse to baptism , would equally avail to give them accesse to the supper , if we were minded in good earnest to plead their right to both , in evidence of which I shall argue upon you with your own Argument , thus To whom the thing signified belongs , to them the sign also belongs , unlesse there be some exception or incapacity to perform what is required to the receiving of the sign . But the thing signified in the supper which is the same that 's signified in baptism viz. Christ and his benefits belongs to infants , and there 's no more exception of them from it , then from baptism , nor more incapacity in them to perform that which is required to the supper , then there is in them to perform what 's required to baptism . Ergo if they may receive the outward sign of baptism , they may receive the outward sign of the supper also . But in truth as they are no more capable of one of these signs then the other , so are they in very dead both uncapable of , and plainly enough alike excepted from both . Secondly , is it so Sirs , that infants being a great part ( if not the Major part ) of all nations must therefore be baptized , because it s said baptize all Nations , unless they bad been excepted , then I answer again , if you mean thus , viz. unless they had been some way or other ( at least vertually or implicitly excepted ) then infants are most manifestly and clearly excepted in this very text it self , Mat. 28.19 . if there were no other in all the Scripture to exclude them : for first though that be Christs commission and direction to his disciples whom to baptize , yet there 's no mention at all of children , nor yet in Mark 16.15.16 . where the same will of Christ is declared in other terms , concerning the baptism of such as are converted to the faith by preaching , and this D Featley himself more then confesses , for he urges it with earnestness p. 62. in these words , viz. there is no mention of children in either of these texts , and if so that there 's no mention at all then they are not implied , as both Mr. Marshal and himself ( to the contradiction of himself ) affirms they are in the word Nations , for for children to be both implied , and included in that word Nations , and yet neither to be mentioned , nor meant therein at all , are inconsistent , and such a bo-peep as is impossible , and if they be not so much as implied , and mentioned in the commission they must needs be understood to be excepted and excluded . Secondly , as there is no mention of children , so there is such a plain limitation , and restriction of baptism to such persons , as infants in infancy are not capable to be viz. Disciples of Christ , aliàs persons so taught and instructed by the ministration of men , as to believe the Gospel , that they are more then purblind , who discern not infants ( for they are uncapable to learn by the teachings of men ) to be in that place excepted : for it is said go ye and teach all nations 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Nations , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 understood in the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the nations , as by the figure Synthesis , which is oratto congrua sensu non voce , I grant it may , yet not the Nations by the lump , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 persons in the Nations , that are indoctrinated and instructed , as infants cannot be , i. e. them that you have taught , and that have learnt , and are become disciples by your teaching : it is as plain as the light , that not any more of the Nations are here bid to be baptized , than those , even those very individuals , that are first bid to be taught , or made disciples by mans ministery : for the Pronoun [ them ] that is put after the participle [ baptized ] can possibly have no other substantive then [ those persons in those nations ] who ever they are , that are both capable subjects of teaching , and also actually instructed , and discipled ; it is most evident that teaching of persons is here commanded before the baptizing them . Babist . The order of words , by which teaching is here set before baptizing proves nothing , for in Mark 1.4 . that order is inverted , and baptizing set before preaching , thus , viz. Iohn did baptize , and preach the baptism of repentance . Baptist. So saies Dr. Holmes indeed p. 7. and t is also a common saying among you all but I tell yod if you were not minded more to pervert , then to preach the Gospel , you could not be ignorant , that that inversion Mark 1.4 . is such , as altars not the sense so , but that t is in sense , and signification the very same as we contend for out of Mat. 28.19 . viz. that preaching is to go before baptizing , for though it be said there Iohn did baptize and preach the baptism of repentance , it must necessarily be understood thus , viz. that he preached baptism to persons before he practised it to them ; for you cannot be so silly sure as to imagin that Iohn first baptized persons when they came to him , before he opened his Mouth to tell them wherefore ; yet I know one that being in a streit , did not stick to strein himself out by such a simple saying as that , but for all that , if that honest man who said thus ( I forbear to name him least I shame him ) were as true a Minister of the Gospel , as he supposes himself to be , and should go forth with his Gospel to a Nation as ignorant of the truth of baptisme as himself , and offer but such a small matter as his rantism , much more so worthy , so weighty and burdensome a business to the flesh as the true baptism is , viz. to overwhelm them in water , without declaring to them first for what end , and purpose , either he would shew himself an Egregious and Arrant simpleton in once conceiving they would , or they themselves but senseless Animals , if they should so suddenly submit to him . Moreover its apparent to any , but such as are resolved to shift off truth as long as they can , that the same passage of Mark 1.4 . as t is recorded Mat. 3.1.5 . Luke 3.3.7 . shewes that Iohn first came preaching the baptism of repentance for remission of sins , and then and thereupon people came out to him and were baptized of him in Iordan confessing their sins . Out of that place therefore Mat. 28.19 . which is so usually assigned by your selves , as the main Scripture , in which Christ commands infant baptism , though upon examination it is oft asserted to be a place that neither mentions at all , nor once meddles with infants , and that by the self same persons that so assign it , I argue thus in disproof of them who assign it , as Christ precept for infants baptisme , and in proof that its a plain prohibition of such a thing , viz. If Christ there commissionates and commands his Disciples to baptize none but the very same persons whom he commands them also first to teach , and make disciples by teaching , then that place is a plain prohibition , and not at all a precept to baptize infants ; for men cannot teach or disciple infants . But Christ there commissionates and commands his disciples to baptize none but such as he also commands them first to teach , and make disciples by teaching . Ergo , that place is a plain prohibition , and not at all a precept to baptize infants . The Minor , which onely you can rationally require proof of , is so clear , that the blindest of you may see it in the text it self , where the Pronoun them , that is governed by the participle baptizing , can possibly relate to no other substantive , but to the self same persons that are immediately before commanded to be taught , or made disciples , and whether you will have the substantive to [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] to be [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] understood in the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as when it serves your turn , so far as to furnish your selves by comparing this place with Act. 15.10 . with matter of proof ( prate I should say ) for infants discipleship , you will needs have it , for upon this account Mr. Cotton , Mr. Baxter and many more seem to proceed ) or [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] by the figure Synthesis ( as some of you will rather have it ) t is much at a pass , yea not a strawes worth of advantage to you , take it which way you will , for still it will amount to this , that whether you make [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] to agree with [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] or [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] the nations , t is not the nations in gross ( as Dr. Holmes also tells you p. 7. ) for then all must be baptized ( saith he and truly too ) if the word Nations , universally taken , doth there note the subjects of baptism ) but t is the Nations with restriction , the nations discipled , i. e. so many in all Nations as are first made disciples by teaching , and not more , that there are commanded to be baptized : and this Mr. Cotton , and Mr. Baxter , and Dr. Featley , and Dr. Holmes , and wellnigh all your champions are well aware cannot be denyed , and therefore rather then assert such a thing , viz. that any more are here bid to be baptized , then such as are first bid to be discipled , they chuse to take so hard a province upon them , as to proceed to the promotion of their cause by way of proof that infants are disciples . Babist . In Christs precept teaching doth not go before but follow baptizing Mat. 28.20 . teaching them to observe all things . &c. Baptist. So Dr. Featley fiddles this ore indeed p. 39. for these are his very words ; to which I reply , who denies that in Christs precept preaching follows baptizing ? but what of that ? doth it follow , and is that the Drs. meaning trow , that therfore it doth not go before it ? me thinks the man should not be so senslesse , nor do I think he was so senslesse as to think so , but the ground he stumbles at is the new found meaning of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of which I shall be occasioned to say more anon , onely here it shall suffice to say thus much viz. as t is clear there 's a teaching to follow baptizing in Christs precept , so t is as clear that there 's a teaching to go before , of all persons to whomsoever baptism is dispensed , a teaching a priori , and a teaching a posteriori , the first in order to discipleship and baptism , the other after baptism in order to perfection , baptism is by precept to be immediately after the first , and the other is to be by precept so immediately after baptism , that infants being uncapable of both the one and of the other , viz. of being taught just before baptism and presently after baptism , are thereby universally excepted from it , yea these two teachings , neither of which is to be used to infants , are to come by precept so neer together , that there 's no room for infants baptism to come in between them . Babist . They are not so much excepted by the words [ TEACH ] v. 19. and [ TEACHING ] ver . 20. but they are as much concluded to be the subject of baptism under the word [ All nations ] because they are a great part , if not the half of all nations ( as Dr. Featley ) and serve to make up a nation as well as their parents ( as Mr. Blake ) and in every nation make a great part of that nation as well as their parents , as Mr. Marshal urgeth . Baptist. As if the precept for baptizing did extend it self to all persons in every nation without any limitation , or restriction , or any praevious preparation to it save onely barely being of the nations , Nec mediante doctrinà , nec disciplinâ : but is it so Sirs , then let me ask you , are not the infants of Turks , Pagans , Tartars , Indians , Jews , unbelievers a part , yea a far greater part , and do they not serve much more to make up the number in nations , then the Infants of believers ? why then ( if that be the ground you will needs go upon ) must not these be baptized as well as the other ? yea surely if this be a good argument to prove any ones right to baptism from this place , because he is of the nations , then stark natural fools , as well as infants , yea very profest profane ones , open enemies against the name of Christ , as Turks and Pagans , being a great part of all Nations , have as good right to baptism as any of those you rantize , or we our selves baptize either , for shame therefore forgo such rude kind of ratiocination . This therefore that all Nations are bid to be baptized , cannot make Mat. 28. 19. to be a precept for baptizing infants , though they be of the Nations , unlesse they were capable to be taught , which because they are not , that place commanding no more to be baptized , then the same whom it commands also to be taught , and that not onely before but immediatly after baptism , is a plain prohibition of infant-baptism . A second way wherein t is argued by you that there 's command in Mat. 28.19 . for the baptizing of infants , is from their being disciples , which weak twig , seeing your selves as it were sinking in your cause , you all catch at : yea I meet with none of you almost , but in one place or other of your writings I find your fortifying your selves in that foolish practise by this childish consideration , thus doth Dr. Featly , Dr. Holmes , Mr. Marshal , Mr. Bayly , Mr. Blake , Mr. Baxter , Mr. Cook , Mr. Cotton , among all which Mr. Cotton being the most formal and Syllogistical in his argument from this place , & beginning his book with it ( as Mr. Baxter also doth , with whom I may chance to deal more then I will do in this place before I have done ) I le begin with him and in him , and after him , speak to you all sooner or later ( as occasion is ) about this particular . Thus then he reasons from thence . Such as be disciples they are to be baptized . But the children of the faithful are disciples . Ergo the children of the faithfull are to be baptized . The former proposition is clearly exprest in the text ( saith he ) make disciples and baptize them , therefore all disciples are to be baptized , but had he concluded according to mood and figure , or the tenor of this text , or had he not been both blinded , and minded to go besides the sense of the spirit in this place , he would have said therefore all that are first made disciples by instruction are to be baptized , and then he had mard all his proceedings concerning infants . As for the second proposition which is the assertion of you all viz. That infants are disciples , Mr. Cotton toward the proof of it so miserably misapplies 2. pieces of Isaiah , that he rather proves himself thereby to be yet but an infant in discipleship , and Gospel understanding then proves infants to be disciples from thence . The first place is Isa. 54.13 . whereby it s said , by way of promise to the Church of the New Ierusa●em , when once it shall be established a praise in all the Earth ( as it is not yet , nor ever shall be till Christs second appearing ) when God shall wipe away all tears from her eies , and secure her for ever from all future sufferings , and oppressions , That all her children shall be taught of God , and great shall be the peace of her children : from this place , which is meant of all the Saints , and that immediate teaching which they shall once have , he argues thus , to all the naturall infants of believing parents in the Church now , viz. if they be taught of God , then are they disciples , for that is the meaning of the word disciples . Disciples are taught or learned of God. His second place is Isay. 65.20 . where it s said there shall be no more thenceforth an infant of daies &c. in which place , what ere the meaning is , it matters not a rush as to his purpose , so long as it s spoken of a time that is yet to come . Now here is such a messe of mistakes as may well make a wise man amaz'd , and and make him muse whether the pen-man of this proof of that Minor , that infants are disciples , and consequently to be baptized according to Mat. 28.19 . were well awake , or asleep when he set it down , concerning it I le propound four things to be well examined of you all , First whether he be not egregiously mistaken in the persons to whom those promises are made , which if they be all infants of the faithful , considered as in their minority , then is there a mighty mist before my eyes , for really by the best improvement I can make of my understanding , I can possibly ken no such matter , nor that it is any other then the Saints , and faithful ones themselves ; even all of them , and not any of their children after the flesh , but as they prove faithfull , and do become Saints in their own persons as well as their parents . Secondly whether he be not grossely mistaken about the time wherein these promises are to be fulfilled , in fuller evidence of both which consider , first as to the first Scripture , who ever they are that are there expressed by the term [ thy children ] they are all and every of them without exception partakers of the Lords teaching , and of all the other priviledges there promised , for it s said , All thy children shall be taught of the Lord &c. at that time therefore wherein this shall be fulfilled this promise shall be performed to every individual of those kind of persons , to whom it s made , not one excepted , which shews that it is meant onely of the Saints , for they are the Churches children , and not their natural seed , and of that time onely when the New Ierusalem , which is not yet , shall come down from God out of heaven , for so shall it then be with all the faithful that shall inhabit that City of the Lord , whose people are said also to be all righteous , Is. 60.21 . but this is not performed to all the children of the faithfull now , neither are they all taught of God , with that effectual teaching there promised , as is evident , in that many of them in time prove reprobates , when wicked mens children prove elect . Secondly , It is expresly shewed in the 17 v. who are the persons whose portion and heritage these priviledges are , for this ( saith he ) is the heritage of the servants of the Lord. As for the second place , so far is it from speaking of infants in infancy , that it rather shewes that there shall be no infant of daies , i. e. that shall dy an infant , nor old man that hath not filled his daies in that time , but the very child shall dy an hundred years old , i. e. he shall be counted as dying young , or a child that lives but an hundred years , so long lived shall they be in those daies , yea as the daies of a tree shall be the daies of my people ( saith God ) and mine elect shall long enjoy the works of their hands . And as to the time when these things shall be , t is not now , but in the reign of Christ , when the New Ierusalem shall be built with Saphirs , and all precious stones , and when the Lord shall make the New Heavens and the New Earth , which is not yet in being , but is looked for of all the Saints at the comming of Christ , and the redemption of Israel ( as Peter saith ) according to his promise , which appears plainly by comparing Isa. 65. 17 — 66.22 with 2. Pet. 3.13 , 14. and also by the last text of the two , which Mr. Cotton abuses , viz. Isa. 65. v. 20 which saith this shall be from thenceforth , i. e. from the time of Gods creating that new heavens and new earth . Thirdly , Whether he doth not most palpably depart from the matter he took first in hand to prove unto another thing , which is no more to his purpose , then if he had said bo to a goose ; yea he runs clear away from the Scripture he began upon and never returns to it more , as if he were affraid to come near it , scarce ere so much as facing about , or looking behind him : for what he ought to have cleared ( but surely he thought he could not , and therefore was not minded to meddle with it ) was this , viz. that in order to being the subjects of the baptism there injoined infants are disciples , in such a sense as is there spoken of viz. made so by the Ministery of the word , and teaching ; for saith Christ go teach all nations baptizing them , but his is not to the same , not ad idem , but ad aliud quoddam , a certain other thing , which if he did prove ( as he doth not ) it could in no wise prove what he brings it in proof of , viz. that infants of the faithful , upon the account of some uncouth , unheard of , strange , secret sort of teaching and learning , which these infants have from God , above any other , may be truly said to be disciples , and thereupon to be baptized . And this though it be not spoken so broadly by any as by Mr. Cotton , who makes it his business so far as to wrest and pervert certain Scriptures into the proof of it , insomuch that some of his fellow fighters for infant-baptism are ashamed on 't and disclaim it , ( witness Mr. Bayly p. 145. where , speaking of infants being disciples , I speak not ( saith he ) of that which divers maintain , viz. the application of that in Esay to infants , they shall be all taught of God ) yet is it more tacitly hinted to be the opinion of most of you , whereupon you attribute both discipleship , and baptism to infants , as if that were the main thing meant in Mat. 28.19 . where Christ means no such matter as the inward secret and unknown teachings of God , but the teachings or making disciples to him by the Ministery of men . Thus saies Mr. Cook in his Answer to the vanity of childish baptism , p. 33. Infants of believing parents are made disciples of God and Christ. And Mr. Marshall in his reply to Mr. Tombes , p. 216. though they be not capable of receiving instruction from men , yet they are capable of Gods own teaching even in their infancy . So Dr. Holmes p. 8. God can preach to the heart and so to children . So Mr. Baxter , page 23. If they can learn nothing of the parents , yet Christ hath other waies of teaching then by men , even by the immediate workings of his spirit . So you Ashford Disputants , p. 8. & 18. infants have an hearing the spirit opens their ears , quo magistro , quam cito discitur , quod docet ? But Sirs first is there any Scripture that teaches you this twattle , unless you misuse to that end those Scriptures Mr. Cotton doth , that God teaches believers infants thus ? Secondly , doth it appear to you , that any one of the infants , that you sprinkle in particular , is taught or hath learned any thing of God before you sprinkle it ? Thirdly , is it any more evident to you that all believers infants are taught of God , then t is that unbelievers infants are taught by him ? have ye not instance , that unbelievers children , not in infancy , but so soon as ever they are capable to learn any thing are often taught of God , and as oft believers children are not ? as Iosia at eight years was taught of God , and became a precious Saint , though the child of wicked Ammon , when all the children of this good Iosia himself , were left untaught by him , I mean unconverted under all his teaching . Fourthly , if it were as sure ( as the contrary is sure , for who sees any effects of Gods teaching them from the womb , when as we see not that they know a jot more then other children , till God teaches them by the instruction of men ? ) were it sure I say that these infants are taught of God in infancy , yet what is this to prove infants to be the persons commanded to be baptized in Mat. 28. for there Christ doth not bid them go , and make disciples to him by Gods inward teachings , for that was more then they could perform , but he bids them go , and disciple the Nations , and instruct them , and baptize them , i. e. those that by their teaching are made disciples : nor is there one crumb of commission there for their baptizing of any other : and in this sense taking the word [ disciples ] his Minor is most false . Fiftly , Let it be examined , whether the words of Mr. Cotton do not clearly contradict sundry of your expressions about the meaning of that word [ Disciple ] about which several of you not a little also contradict your selves , about which therefore either he , or you must be mistaken : for he confesses the true meaning of the word [ Disciple ] is taught , or learned , and Disciples are such as are taught and have learned : but several of you say that Discipling is not teaching , and breeding Schollars , or making them learned , nor to be discipled , to be taught , or learned , but that baptizing may well be rendered a discipling , and to make disciples ▪ or disciple persons , is to admit Schollars , and to admit to be taught . So Mr. Marshal saies he learns from certain Criticks , better then Mr. Tombes , in his reply to Mr. Tombes p. 212.213 . So Mr. Cook p. 33. To make children disciples ( saith he ) is to give them up unto God , i. e. in baptism , promising to bring them up in the knowledge of God , so soon as they shall be capable of outward teaching , so that they are ipso facto disciples in respect of that promise , and of Gods obligation to teach them , and such like stuff . So Mr. Bayly p. 254. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not to teach , but make disciples , i. e. to bring to them to the School of God , the visible Church , to dedicate them to Gods discipline to give their names up to be Gods subjects and Schollers . So Dr. Featley p. 39. Though children in their nonage cannot be taught , yet they may be made Christs disciples , by being admitted into his school , their parents giving their names to Christ , both for themselves and their fami●lies . So Mr. Baxter p. 22 , 23. they say , saith he , they cannot learn , but they may enjoy the priviledges of the family , and School , and be under his charge and dominion , and that is enough to make them capable of being disciples . As if so be when Christ commissionated his disciples to disciple Nations , he meant not that they should teach them , but in a sense abstract from their own teachings , he means thus , go and admit Scholars to be taught , baptize persons , and thereby give them up to me , consecrate them to me , put them out to School to me , so that though they cannot learn , yet they may partake of my protection and provision , and such like confused foppery as this , which to assert is unsound , shamefully non-sensical , and unbeseeming the judgements of any men , but such as devote themselves ( unawares ) to the delusion of themselves and others . But howbeit you are all of one mind in this , and are agreed to shu● out teaching from being any part of that work of making disciples unto Christ , that you may uphold that meer tradition of admitting infants unto baptism , as if the act of baptizing were to make persons disciples , more then the act of teaching , yet I shall close with Mr. Cotton here against you all , and undertake to make good , what he saies towards your confutation herein , viz. that the true meaning of the word [ Disciple ] is one that hath learned by instruction , and not one that is admitted to be taught , before he is so much as capable to learn , as is frivolously fained by Dr. Featley . Mr. Marshal and others : yea though Dr. Featley doth shift off all teaching before baptizing , by saying that the words of our Saviour are not [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] but [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] p. 39. make disciples , not by teaching but admitting into Christs School , yet ( to let pass his false rendring of the word , for want of looking into his greek testament , which is not [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) I must tell all you that so adhere to him , and Mr. Marshall also , who holds the same with him , and Criticizes out of the Rabinick Doctors , and Spanhemius , saying that with them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is not as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make Scholars learned by teaching , but onely to admit them to be taught , Non quia erant docti . sed ut essent , and that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] signifies not onely to teach , but to make disciples ▪ which is done ( saith he out of Spanhemius ) by these two actions viz , baptizing and teaching : I must tell you I say , and them and their Criticks also , first if their own words were never so true , yet they make much more for us , who deny infants to be disciples , then you , and are much more exclusive then admissive of such younglings as you sprinkle to the name of Scholars , disciples : for if it be but so as the Rabbies saie that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] be onely to admit Scholars to be taught , doth it not signifie much more then infants of eight dayes are capable of ? and were not he more simple then sober , and well in his wits , that being a father should enter his child , or being a master should entertain a child of 7 or 8 dayes old to be taught , whilst he is yet , and is long like to be uncapable of the least tincture of tuition ? and doth he deserve to be called a Scholar himself ( as to that particular , how learn'd soever otherwise ) who both calls and contends to have persons called Scholars , not onely before they have learned ever a letter , but some years before they are capable to be taught a tittle : as for circumcision which was so timely dispenst , its intent was not to admit the subjects to be taught , as Mr. Marshal vainly contends , saying that they were then discipled when circumcised i. e. then first initiated and admitted immediately to be taught , but somewhat else ( as I have shewd above ) for when it was dispenst to infants it was set to a subject utterly uncapable to be taught , and when to grown men , that subject was to be instructed before it ; and as for baptism to which from circumcision Mr. Marshall analogically argues the same , that is not by intent and institution the first admission of persons to be taught , though persons are to be further taught after it in other doctrines , Act. 2 , 42. Mat. 28.20 . but it was one of these doctrines of Christ it self which was to be taught before dispensed , and as it were a certain sermon , wherein the person submitting is to be instructed and shewed many pretious things viz. Christ dead , buried , and raised while dispensed , and though it is one of the six principles , or first doctrines of Christ that is to be preached , believed and practised by new born babes , and ( I mean not in your sense but another ) by beginners in Christs School , yet is it not the first among the six in order , but the third , to which two other Doctrines , viz. faith and repentance ought to be Antecedent , Heb. 6.1.2.3 . Act. 2.38 . Mark. 1.15 . Mark. 16.15 , 16. And if it be so as Mr. Marshall saies Spanhemius affirms , giving good reason ( though it s but bald reason as I shall shew by and by ) for his Analysis viz. that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] to make disciples doth not signifie simply to teach , for then there would be found Tautology in Christs words , because he repeats teaching again after baptizing , but to baptize and teach both , so as that Christs meaning is this ( as he saies ) viz. go and make me disciples out of all nations by baptizing and teaching , and so as that this businesse of making disciples is to be accomplisht or attained by two , and not under these two actions at least , viz. baptizing and teaching ( as he saies t is ) then let all the world judge , whether infants be not still by that opinion as uncapable to be made disciples as before , for whether [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] to make disciples be a matter , or end attainable simply by that one action of eaching onely , or whether not under these two mediums viz. baptizing and teaching both , still no men in the world are able to make infants of a few daies old disciples , for howbeit they are capable to have one of these actions acted on them viz. to be baptized ; yet till they come to years they cannot be instructed or taught , rill when ( as Sp●nhemius sayes well ) the end of making them disciples is not attained . By those very testimonies therfore , whereby Mr. Marshall would prove infants to be disciples ( o how is the understanding of the prudent brought to naught ) that infants are not capable to be made disciples in Christs sense and present Dialect , he hath in print proved it to the world , and that for ever . Moreover what if notwithstanding all that Mr. Marshal and his curious Criticks conceive , his Rabinick phrases ( as he calls them ) viz. his [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] and his [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] which are in sense the same , be both found to signifie otherwise then his learned Spanhemius , and reverend Rabbies do render them ? viz. not meerly to admit to be taught , much lesse to disciple one barely by baptizing ( as Mr. Marshall would perswade us , quite contrary to his own quotation out of Spanhemius , in this very application of it , for Spanhemius saies ( and so he quotes him ) that to disciple is to baptize , and teach both , but he that baptizing onely is discipling ) I say what if they be found to signifie neither baptizing onely , nor baptizing and teaching both , nor admitting one by baptism to be taught , or consecrating , or initiating into Christs School by baptism , or any such like thing , as you Divines dream on , but rather mainly , if not onely , the acts of teaching and instructing persons , till they have learn'd what is taught them , abstract from the acts of baptizing , and admitting into the Church ? will it not appear much more plainly then , that infants are not capable to be made disciples ? and yet to the contradiction of Mr. Marshal , and all the rest , Mr. Cotton declares this to be his opinion , viz. that the true meaning of the word [ disciple ] is taught or learn'd : or if Mr. Cotton may not be credited , if Mr. Marshall will take Christs own word for it , which is more worth then either Mr. Cottons , or those Rabbies , and from whose use of the word , and not theirs , its best to be understood , [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is to make disciples before baptism , and not by it , and ( though baptism is necessit . .te praecepti , and for many ends viz. the visibility of the thing to others , and fuller evidence of things believed to themselves , necessarily and immediately to follow after i ) to teach an instruct men in the Gospel , for there can be no other way of making disciples but this of teaching , assigned as Antecedent to baptism : and in proof that that phrase so signifies in Scripture , see Iohn 4.1 . where it s said of Christ , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. he maketh and baptizeth more disciples then Iohn , which phrase [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] you see by the conjunction copulative [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is set down as a distinct action from [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] he made disciples and then baptized them , therefore he did not make them by baptizing them , but by something he acted towards them before viz. by preaching and instruction so it must be , for else , if you talk of tantology , here had been tantology in the Evangelists words indeed , for if he had said thus , viz. he made or baptized ( as it must have been , if the words [ he made Disciples and baptized ] had been Synonimaes , in sense just one and the same ) then you had had some couler for your conception , but sith he saies he made Disciples and baptized them , it shewes plainly that he made them before he baptized them , and that these two words [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] and [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] are not one and the same in signification , for then there had been tantology in using them both , and though the expression be different yet the sense is no other then if it were said thus , viz. Iesus baptized , and baptized more than Iohn . I appeal also to your own consciences , whether what Christ speaks in this very text we are yet upon , viz. Mat. 28.19 . by the participle [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] may not without any violation of the sense , be read imperatively by the verb [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] thus viz. teach all Nations , and baptize them , and if so whether [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] and [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] would be terms equipollent in that praecept , and if so whether it were not tautology to say ( as in sense you would make Christ to say there ) go and baptize all Nations , and baptize them , and little better then such vain repetition is it though you read it by the participle , if [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] to disciple be rendered to baptize , and ( Retro ) baptizing may well be rendered discipling ( as Mr. Marshall saies it may ) for then at the best it is but thus , viz. go and baptize the Nations , baptizing them , which kind of geminations , though they are not more frequent , then elegant in the Hebrew tongue , yet are but tautology in your own judgements among the Greeks : Besides that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to make disciples is to teach persons till they have learned , and nothing else ( properly taken ) is plain to any that considers what these substantives signify , and the several roots , from whence they are derived , in the several tongues to which they appertain , for as [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] in the Hebrew comes of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 didicit , and is rendered discens ab alio , and used in Scripture for one that learns , and is actually under teaching , 1 Chron. 25.8 . so [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] in the Greek is of [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] disco , and signifies the very same , viz. one that learnes at least , and is so used in Scripture , yea so necessary is it to learn the commands of Christ , in order to the being his Disciples , that he himself professes whoever hath not learned to bear his cross , and follow him ( which infants cannot do , and yet may be saved nevertheless ( dying infants ) these things being not required of infancy , as neither to be Christs disciples or to learn of him ) cannot be his disciple : which term disciple comes also of the Latine word [ disco ] to learn , and signifies one learning , and is never used in Scripture for any other , yea further that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] doth ( contrary to what Mr. Marshall , and his Criticks say it doth in Mat. 28. ) signifie elsewhere , if not every where else simply and onely to teach , is to be seen by Christs own usage of i● in other places , for speaking in the passive Mat. 11.29 . viz. learn , or be ye taught of me , for I am meek &c. he hath this very phrase in the Greek , viz. [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] so Iohn 6.46 . [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] every one that hath learned , so saies Paul Phil. 4.11 . [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] But if you will not learn of Christ and Paul , yet be pleased to learn this one from another , that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] in that place , Mat. 28. signifies onely a general teaching , for if either you that follow Dr. Featley who saies [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is not teach , or Mr. Bayly . or Mr. Marshall ( who above all the rest hath most reason to hearken to Dr. Holmes , sith he mannageth the very same cause of infant-baptism with him , and that against the very same Antagonist Mr. Tombes ) will but consult Dr. Holmes p. 7. he tells you that as [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is ver . 19. so [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] ver . 20. therefore most likely in v. 19. it signifieth onely a general teaching , and this he saies not of his own head , but out of as great Criticks , as Mr. Marshall quotes to the contrary , viz. Legh Crit. S. Novar . in Matth. 28. 20. The great Arias , who renders it only [ docete ] teach . So the Renowned Vatablus . So the Syr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the Arab. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . So many other which for brevitie he omits . See also his Alphabetical Index in the Letter D , where he saies that [ go teach ] is not rendered to disciple , or make disciples by the Arabick , Syriack , and Saint Mark , or the exactest Latins , or by the best translations of the new Testament in French , Dutch , Germain , Hebrew , another Syr. Italian Margin , or by the holy spirit , which ( saith he ) p. 8. renders this text ( meaning Mat : 28.19 . and that term [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] by plain [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] preach the Gospell Mark 16.15 . much more in proof that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] cannot be any other than teach , he hath p. 8. and all this over again p. 102. yea so ( saith he ) the Great Criticks , or learned men in the Greek tongue say , that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is to teach them that are strangers to doctrine , that they may become disciples , [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] to teach them that are Disciples so say we that are no Criticks , viz. that there is a first general teaching to acquaint persons with the Gospel , which when once they believe , and are baptized , there is a second teaching to bring them on towards perfection ; by all which , though the words of Christ , who saies go teach , baptizing , teaching , are vindicated from ta●tology , ye● you will never be vindicated from the fault of flat Antalogy , or contradiction among your selves , who quote Criticism against Criticism to the overthrowing and falsifying of one anothers opinions , and principles , and all this in edification of the same practise of infants sprinkling , which must needs be believed to be a good one , when in prosecution of it , O Woman that ridest and misguidest the Nations , thou art so contrary to thy self , some saying that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] Mat. 28. signifies only to teach ; some to Disciple not by teaching , but baptizing , or admitting to be taught ; some to make disciples by both these actions not either of them alone , viz. teaching and baptizing ; some arguing thus viz. infants are disciples , and therefore they must be baptized , as Mr. Cotton , and Mr. Baxter , Mr. Bayly , Dr. Holmes , Dr. Featley , Mr. Blake , Mr. Marshall , and who not ? some again thus , viz. that they must be baptized , and thereby made disciples , as Mr. Marshall , Mr. Baxter , and others of you , who tell us that by baptism they must be discipled , i. e. entered and admitted into Christs School that they may be taught : O pure round abouts ! for thus it runs up and down in your writings , viz. that they are not made disciples but by these two actions , baptizing , and teaching ▪ and yet to go round again , they cannot be taught , nor made disciples in that way of teaching , and learning , but must be discipled by baptizing ; and yet to go round again , infants of believers are disciples , and upon the account of their being so are to be baptized . Lastly , as to that frivilous flim flam from Acts 15.10 . into the blind belief of which you are all indoctrinated , and discipled one by another ( for there is scarce any of you that write but you have a touch on it , witness Mr. Cotton p. 7. Mr. Marshall in his Sermon p. 39. in his reply to Mr. Tombes p. 217. Mr. Bayly p. 145. Mr. Baxter p. 15. Dr. Holmes himself , that denies utterly that they are bid to be discipled in Mat. 28. p. 7. yet asserts that in Acts 15.10 . infants of believers are called Disciples p. 8. I shall say a little to your folly in that also , and so leave you to consider it at your leasure . And because Mr. Marshall is the main man I had last in hand , and the man that frames the most formal argument from that Scripture , whereby to prove infants to be disciples , I le single out wh●● he saies , and see what may be said in answer to it , and in him you will all stand or fall in this particular : the form in which he reasons Serm. p. 39. is this . Babist . All they upon whose necks those false teachers would have put the yoke of circumcision are called disciples . But they would have put the yoke of circumcision upon infants as well as grown men . Ergo infants as well as grown men are called disciples , and to be called so . Baptist. The Minor which is so undeniable that it needs no proof ( for who denies , but that they who taught the brethren or disciples at Antioch , would have put circumcision upon the necks of their male infants as well as of themselves ? for after the manner of Moses , though not of Christ , so it was to be ) he falls pell mell upon the proof of that , but as for the Major which is so palpably , and apparently false that it needs no disproof , that ( saith he ) is undeniable , and so he slides away without once offering to make any proof of it at all . I shall therefore shew you how plainly he perverts the text , how false his foundation or Major proposition is , and consequently how rotten and weak his whole building . That Scripture hints onely thus much to us viz. that they would have put the yoak of circumcision upon the necks of the disciples , out of which , but how inconsequently a very Idiot may understand , he publisheth this proposition viz. All they upon whose necks they would have put the yoak of circumcision were called disciples , but what monstrous solaecism , what ignorant incongruity is to be seen in these two sentences , if laid together ? what naked arguing is this , they would have put the yoak of circumcisiin upon the necks of the disciples , therefore all they were disciples upon whose necks they would have put it ? I appeal to Mr. Marshals own conscience to judge whether it be any better then this viz. Caesar put the yoak of Tribute upon the necks of Christs disciples . Ergo all they , upon whose necks Caesar put that yoke , were Christs disciples . I am hardly perswaded within my self that such a man as Mr. Marshall could first preach this ore , Secondly , print it ore ; Thirdly , repeat is , reprint it ore again , with so sleight an answer to it as he gives to Mr. Tombes p. 217. of his reply , and not see the nakednesse of it , which if he doth see , I charge him as he will answer it before the Lord Iesus at the last day , that he declare it to the undeceiving of 1000s , that for ought he knows may be dangerously deluded by it , and that he do not dare any longer thus to darken counsel by words without knowledge : as for that sorry allusion whereby he puts off Mr. Tombes , who denies his Major for this reason , viz. because it is not said , they would have put the yoak of circumcision upon the disciples onely , it s but a further delusion of himself and others . I hope saith he you will receive the same law you give , therefore when your self do plead , meaning against infants baptism , Iohns and Christs disciples required confession of faith and sins of those whom they baptized , I answer saith he , that its nowhere said they baptized only such . But Sir , though it be not said totidem verbis they baptized onely such , yet it is said in terminis aequivalentibus , in words that can imply possibly no lesse , for when it s told us by way of true narration . Mat. 3.5.6 . that Ierusalem , and all Iudea , and all the Region round about Iordan were baptized , confessing their sins , it is in sense as if he had said , that all they of Ierusalem , Iudea , and about Iordan , that were baptized , were baptized thus , viz. confessing their sins and consequently that onely those who confessed their sins were baptized , and when it s told us for truth , to the end that we might know who , and how many that day were baptized and added to the Church , Act. 2.42 . in these termes , viz. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized , and the same day there were added ( meaning to those 120. that continued in supplication Act. 1.14 . ) about 3000 soules , those termes [ they that gladly received the word ] must needs be exclusive of all others that did not gladly receive the word , & consequently of infants that could not , or else we are clearly cousen'd by that story ; for if I undertake to relate truly by way of Chronicle , who and how many were executed at such an Assize , or slain in such a battel on such a day ( as Luke doth in Act. 2. to shew who and how many were baptized on that day ) and expresse it in such terms as do include the third part of them only ( for the several housholds to which those 3000 souls did belong , would surely have amounted to thrice as many more , had all those whole housholds been baptized with them ) I should be reputed as no better then an Impostor : but the case is not the same in Act. 15.10 . for the end and intent of Luke the historian , and Peter the spokesman in that place was not to relate how many they would have yoaked with circumcision , but the drift of Peter was onely to reprove the false teachers , and of Luke onely to declare how Peter did reprove them for offering so to subjugate , and subvert the brethren , for so they are called ver . 1. even the very same persons which are called disciples ver . 10. which shews also that by the word [ disciples ] he means not infants , for they were persons capable to be taught , yet this is the strongest hold you have whereby you argue infants to be disciples , and taking it by force from thence , that infants are disciples , you run headlong with it to Mat. 28.19 . where Christ saies , go teach , or by teaching disciple the Nations , baptizing them , and from thence rest an argument for their baptism , but I am ashamed that I must take occasion ( unlesse I le betray the truth ) to reprove the rudenesse of such renowned men , and conclude ( all their conceits to the contrary notwithstanding ) that Mat. 28.19 . is no commission nor command for infant baptism . It follows not therefore from the wonted circumcising of infants , from which you Ashford Disputants dispute it , that therefore they are to be baptized , for this reason viz. because there was a command for the circumcising of infants , but ( as I have shewd above ) none at all ( no not from Mat. 28.29 . nor Mark. 16.15 . much lesse from any other piece of Christs will and Testament ) that they are to be baptized now . But Mr. Marshal fetches it about another way yet , and because Christs own Testament is somewhat barren of provision by way of precept for infants baptism , he runs back to Moses Testament , and fetches what help he can from thence , and undertakes to prove the command for the circumcising of infants , to be a consequential and vertual command and commission for the baptizing of them now , p , 35.36.37 . of his sermon . In prosecution and proof of which position , he spends himself in above 40 pages of his reply to Mr. Tombs , in which great compasse , who ever lists to follow him , and tumble ore all that talk of his to Mr. Tombes , may soon be lost in a laborinth of legal customs and institutions , into which he leads men back from the plain simplicity of the Gospel , then find on inch of Evangelicall institution of infant baptism , of all which I may safely say seriously , before such as know the law of Moses from the Gospel , as Mr. Tombes is taken ( if not mistaken ) by him to speak Ieeringly p. 197. that though in bulk and shew it look like the travell of the mountains , yet the birth and result of all is but a meer silly mouse , for this is the conclusion of that whole matter viz , That that very command for circumcision of infants , that was expressely given before Gen. 17. and expressely bound Abraham to sign his infants with it in infancy , so teacheth and reacheth us now by Analogy and good consequence , that even that alone , that old testament institution without respect to any reviving thereof in any part of the new testament , may serve our turnes as a sufficient command , that doth vertually bind us to baptize our infants now : to which absurdity , though many a wise man would afford no other answer then a laugh in his sleeve , yet as very a fool as I am ▪ I shall onely soberly reply to it as follweth . First , is it so that the command to circumcise infants is vertually a command to us to baptize them ? then Sirs why do you not keep close to your command , and by Analogy baptize precisely on the eighth day , but on any other as you see good ? Babist . The variation of the time is but a circumstance , but an accidentall thing , neither here nor there , nor much material when ordinances are administred , whether at this time or at that , as Mr , Marshal well observes p. 202.203 saying the eight day onely was an accidental thing , and therefore binds us not , as neither the time for the passeover binds us to the same time for the supper : you must not make every thing a substantiall part of the sacrament , which God hath made a part of the outward administration onely , that circumstance of time had some peculiar relation to that manner of administration , and had nothing common to the nature of a sacrament in generall , or to the end and use of that Sacrament as the seal of admission . Baptist. Say you so , that the time is but a crcumstance , and such an accidental thing in circumcision , peculiar to that administration onely , not binding us to the same time in the administration of baptism , but left to us to do it ad libitum , according to our own discretion ? then pray tell me , sith to do it on the eight day is not needful , whe●her to do it on the 10th 12th or 20th day be any more needful then that , and whether to do it on the 8000th day be any more then a meer difference though at a greater distance in that circumstance of time , and so whether I may not consequently let it alone till the 20th or 30th year of their age unlesse they professe faith and desire it before , before I baptize my children by your own opinion and assertion : for it appears by you there is no time prescribed , more then other wherein baptism is enjoyned to be dispensed , unlesse you say that time wherein they appear to believe , and therein we will join with you with all our hearts , let it fall out when it will early or late . Babist . No such matter neither at any hand , for by that means the subject will come to be altered to , which by such a degree of delay must necessarily be men and women onely , and no infants at all : for as we must so far keep analogy with circumcision in our administration of baptism , as to dispense baptism to the same subiect at least , though we differ in that meer circumstance of time , so we must differ no further in the time then is consistent with the Identity of the subject , which is one and the same in circumcision and baptism , this is not an accidental , but a substantial businesse in the Covenant , and so altogether in ●●terable , that there may be no variation of it without violation of the Covenant Gen. 17. for though we need not stand particularly upon the precise time of the eighth day , yet at least we must keep within the general time of infancy , so as that we must baptize infants under the Gospel consequentially , and by vertue of that command to circumcise infants of old . Baptist. That 's the great matter pleaded by you indeed , as wherein of necessity there must be such an Analogy between baptism and circumcision viz. an Idendity in the subject of both : you flee to the institution of circumcision as your supreme warrant for baptizing infants ; but is there not as much deviation from the manner of circumcision , as touching the subject it self among you , as there is in any thing else ? if you must keep so strictly to one and the same subject in circumcision , and baptism , why do you alter the subject your selves ? why baptize you any females , when God commanded males onely to be circumcised ? and why not male servants though unbelieving Moores , Turks or Pagans if of believing masters ? or have you a certain dispensation or liberty lent you to dispense baptism , as much besides your rule as you please , and yet to be accounted as conformable to your Rule still ? Babist . We find the New Testament injoining baptism , and dispensing it to females , as well as males , for it s said Act. 8. that when they believed the things spoken by Philip pertaining to the Kingdome of God , they were baptized both men and women : and therefore there is warrant enough for us to vary so far from circumcision , though it be vertually a command to us concerning baptism , as to admit of Females to the one , when Males onely were admitted to the other . Baptist. You say right : for howbeit indeed under the Covenant of Circumcision , all the Males whether children or Servants born in the house or brought with money ; and they only ( not any females were admitted to that administration , yet it is most evident that ( as to baptism ) it matters not whether persons be male or female , for they are all one in Christs account , according as they believe in him , one sex having no more right thereto then the other , Gal. 3.26.27.28 . But if you betake your selves to the New Testament only as your rule for baptism , though you find warrant there for men and women , yet you find none at all there for infants to be baptized : yea that is as much warrant to us in our varying from the manner of circumcision in the point of infants , by omission of it unto them , as 't is for you to vary from circumcision in the point of females by admission of them unto baptism , for as you are fain to plead for all your strong hold of circumcisions being instituted , and of old dispensed to infants , no less then New Testament institution , and instance for the admission of females , so if we insist upon onely the New Testament institution , and example we can as truly say there is neither precept nor president for baptizing infants , as you can say there is both for baptizing females , and with as much confidence as you can say t is evident there , that both men and women were baptized , may I say it is evident that infants were not , at least it is not evident that they were , and that is enough to serve our turn in this case , wherein it lies upon you , who practise infants baptism , to produce some proof or other that t was practised in the primitive times , and some precept direct , or consequential , from the law of Christ , and not to content your selves , and cousin the world with such a poor pretence , as to say that the command for the circumcision of infants is a consequential and virtual command to us to baptize them , which as bindings as you say it is to us in this case , when it comes to be examined ; you see it binds us as little to the same subject , as to the same circumstance of time . You ly groaping for a warrant for your way in the Old Testament , and Law of Moses , and being not a little aware that you have not warrant enough in the new , you look after that Law-Giver , that is long since out of Date to the church , for the doing of which you need no other to accuse you then he , even Moses , in whom you trust , who instead of inviting you to learn of himself under the times , and promulgation of the Gospel , how Gospel ordinances should be administred ; rather conjures the very Iews themselves , that were as we never were , his own disciples , whilest his Testament stood Iohn 9.28 . and that with a curse , from any longer attendance unto his voice , to attendance unto the voice of another Prophet Christ Iesus , when God should raise him up unto them , you forget Sirs that we are now under the new Testament , and the teachings and Law of another Law-giver , another Apostle , and High Priest of our profession , who was faithfull to him that appointed him as a son over his own house , i. e. the Gospel Church , as Moses though a Servant , was faithful to him that appointed him in all his house , the fleshly Israel : so faithful was Moses as to make all things plain in his Testament , so that his Disciples during the time of that Covenant , whereof he was mediator , might easily see , if they were careful to look into his Law , the mind of God concerning them in every administration of that Testament , so that they need not look any where else but to his Law , yea in Heb. 9.19 . Moses spake every precept to all the people according to the Law , and shall we think that this man , who is worthy of more glory then Moses , and who is now as a son over his own house , hath not been so faithfull , as to make sufficient provision of plain precepts , Lawes , and ordinances so as to speak distinctly , and to give out his will and Testament clearly , so that his disciples may know it , without running back to learn of his servant Moses ? doth not God himself say of this Prophet by the mouth of Moses himself , Deut. 18.18 . I will put my words in his mouth , and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him , him shall they hear in all things , whatsoever he shall say , and it shall come to pass that whosoever shall not hearken to my words which he shall speak in my name , I will require it of him , and he shall be destroyed from among the people , Act. 3.22 . 23. Is it likely then that he hath left his will so darkly delivered , concerning his own institutions , that his Ministers should be fain to fetch it so far , as you fetch infants baptism , who say there is a consequentiall , and virtual command , and institution for it in the old Testament of Moses , for as much as infants are there commanded to be circumcised ? I am ashamed to see such Masters in Israel ( as you go for ) so dishonor and disparage the great Master of the Gospell house , and Mediator of the Gospel Testament , as to straggle and wander and run from him to Moses , to learn how to administer his ordinances : from the son to the Servant ? from the living to the dead ? from the Gospel to a law long since ended ? from the truth to the type ? from the substance to the shadow ? as if there were not light enough shining forth from God in the face of Iesus Christ , for the use of his houshold , without beholding the vailed face of Moses ; for that he gave circumcision as a part of his law , though it was of the Fathers and was in being before him , as sacrifices also were , and other parcels of that old Testament whereof he was Mediator , is shewed abundantly above out of Iohn 7.22 . 23. certainly Sirs , that cause is none of Christs , whose defendants are so hardly bestead , when they are put to clear it that they are driven from Christ himself to call out to Moses , Master help us or else we perish . Babist . Though there is no such Syllabicall , or expresse precept for infants baptism in the New Testament , as there was for circumcision under the old , yet there is precept enough to us , so long as we find no prohibition . Baptist , This was M Kents way of arguing the lawfulness of infants baptism in publike one day at Crambroke , and at Staplehurst also , the same evening following , with my self in the presence of some others ; it is not forbidden ( saies he ) therefore it is commanded : to which it was answered to this effect , viz. that it is not commanded therefore it is forbidden : for we being forbidden to add to the words of Christ , and to preach any other than what was delivered to the Churches by the Apostles Gal. 1.8.9 . Revel . 22.18 . what ordinance , dispensation and peece of worship , and service soever is not appointed by him , must consequently and clearly be prohibited , and be but meer Will Worship , if performed : in fuller proof of which , viz. that it is sufficiently forbidden , that of Philip to the Eunuch was made use of , whose words [ if thou believest with all thy heart 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , licet , thou maiest ] being made in answer to the question quid ni ? what hinders why I may not be baptized ? as they express it to be lawfull for such as believe with all their hearts , so they must plainly imply to any understanding , that is not resolved to be impudent in withstanding truth , that non licet , it is not lawful for such to be baptized as do not , even as ( your selves being judges ) there 's not more permission for self examinants to eat the supper , in that expression of Paul [ let a man examine himself , and so let him eat ] then there is prohibition but all this would not then be accepted for an answer , without an express Sillabicall , formal forbidding it in such word viz. ye shall not baptize infants : ( by the way I wonder where the express prohibition was for circumcising females , if it lye not vertually in this viz. that there 's no command nor example for circumcising them ) whereupon in our after , and occasionall discourse that night , I calling for an express prohibition of that popish practise of baptizing bells , it was returned ( in sense I am sure , as I remember in words ) to this purpose viz. that if it were not forbidden then it might be done , but it was forbidden in this respect , forasmuch as bells were not capable of baptism , to which I said nor infants neither ; and so we parted , since when I never saw him , nor now shall ( since he is departed this life ) till we meet before the Tribunall seat of Christ in that life , which is to come , And least all this should be of as little weight with others , as it was with him , I shall adde a little by way of proof , that there 's prohibition enough of infants baptism , in case it be not clearly commanded , For First , what is not commanded of God is but tradition of man , for which men shall have no thank for their labour Mat. 15.9 . Secondly , neither are we altogether without such positive prohibition , as may be sufficient to satisfie you at least , who hold the command for circumcision of infants to be a command for the baptizing of them : in order to your understanding of which , I shall refer you to Act. 21.21 . where it s said of Paul , that he taught all the Iews , which were among the Gentiles , to forsake Moses , saying , that they ought not to circumcise their children , nor to walk after the customes . In which Scripture I beseech you in the fear of God to observe how t is rehearsed that three things were most expressely forbdiden , as unlawful for the Iews themselves , much more to any believing Gentiles under the dayes of the Gospel , by Pauls preaching . First , they were forbidden ( in general ) to follow Moses , i. e. to live after his law and testament any longer , they are charg'd to forsake Moses . Secondly ( in particular ) they were forbidden to circumcise their children , that being indeed a business the Jews still so doted on , that of all things they were unwilling to let it go , which by the way , shews us plainly , that there was nothing injoyned to be done to infants in the room of it , as some ( but simply ) conceive baptism was by Peter Act. 2. in order to their comfort , under the losse of the other ; for if there had , then surely it would have been specified , and Paul would have preached thus to the Jews , the more easily to weane them from that antient custome of circumcising their children ( specially considering how loath they were to part with it ) viz. you ought not to circumcise your children now , but instead thereof to baptize them , and this may well serve in liew of , and satisfie you under losse of the other , as being not so painful a service , but an easier sign , and that of better things then those promised in the Covenant of circumcision : but he saies no such matter , if he had there would have been doubtlesse less ado , then it should seem there was , to bring the Iews off from that practise of circumcising their infants , of which even after they believed they were so zealous , as not to hear of the abrogation of it without offence , for this would surely easily have contented and satisfied them , if they might have had their children baptized , as of old they were circumcised , but this doubtlesse made them so difficult to be perswaded to a forbearance of circumcising there infants , because they saw the gospel had no answerable dispensation belonging to their infants in the place of it . Thirdly , in general again , they were forbidden to walk so much as after the manner of Moses , for the word here rendred customs is [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] the same that is used in the singular number . Act. 15.1 . [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] which is there rendred after the manner of Moses , which word [ after the customes ] or [ after the manner of Moses , prohibits not onely all observation of those ordinances of the law it self , but also all walking after the same fashion , way and manner as the ordinances of the law were administred in , here 's not only an injunction of non-conformity to the law it self , but prohibition of all conformity to the manner of it : they are not onely taught not to do the same things that were done under Moses , but also not to do under the Gospel in the same way and fashion as of old : they are not onely bid not to circumcise children , but also not to walk after the manner of circumcision or after the customes of the law ; and therefore consequently not to baptize children now , which practise you of the Priesthood not onely confesse to be agreeable , and conformable to that custom of circumcising children under the law , but also contend with all your might to have them baptized now , upon no other account mainly then this , upon which Paul plainly seems to forbid it : for you say t was the custom and manner of old to circumcise children , therefore though circumcision it self be ceased , and baptism come in the room of it , yet thus far at least we must follow the fashion of the Church of the Jews , that as they then circumcised infants , so we in like manner must baptize them , but Paul saies plainly , that we must forsake Moses , and neither circumcise children now ( as of old they did ) not yet walk after the manner of circumcision , nor conform to such Jewish customes , therefore we may not now baptize them , which to do your selves , as you contend so to have it , so confesse it to be after the manner of circumcision . Whether therefore we shall believe him or you in this case judge ye . This , as it is of weight in it self , so it must needs be an argument ad hominem however , of force enough to stop the mouthes of all such as though they yield the law it self and circumcision to be ceased , yet will needs in point of Priesthood , nationall Churches , Tythes , Temples , outward administration , infants admission have all things at least after such a manner as the Jews had , and specially to Mr Marshall and Dr. Holms , and all such as assert , that the very command that was given to circumcise infants of old , is vertually the command to us to baptize them : for thus saies not onely Mr. Marshall but Dr Holmes also out of Ainsworth , p. 9. and 7. of his animadversions , fetching his argument for infant baptism as far as from the first book of Moses called Genesis thus . Where there is a command for a thing never remanded , or contramanded . there the thing is still in force . But there is a command for signing the infants of a believer , with the sign of the Covenant of Grace , Gen. 17.7.9 . never yet remanded or contramanded . Ergo signing believers children with the sign of the Covenant of Grace ( namely baptism now ) is still in force . The Minor of which argument hath no lesse then three false assertions in it . For First , circumcision was not a sign of the Covenant of Grace ( as baptism now is ) nor did any further relate to the Covenant of Grace , then all other things under the law did viz. as types and shadows of the things to come ; but that Covenant of which circumcision was given to be immediately a sign and token , was of that earthly Canaan , made with Abrahams fleshly seed onely : nor Secondly , were they believers infants only , who were there commanded to be circumcised , but all the male infants and male servants also of every houshold of Abrahams posterity by Isaac onely , through their several generations , though the parents and masters were unbelievers , as the Iews were ( for the most part of them ) in all ages , and both they and theirs neverthelesse to be circumcised , while that Covenant of circumcision lasted . Thirdly , whereas he saies that circumcision of infants ( for that 's it he falsely signs there with that name , viz. the sign of the Covenant of Grace ) was never yet remanded , or contramanded , it is as false as all the rest for we see plainly that it was remanded by that text I am yet in hand with , viz. Act. 21.22 . Babist . But baptism , which is the sign now was never remanded . Baptist. I grant it is not , yet I le prove it to the faces of you all , that t is as much remanded , and contramanded , as ever it was commanded in Gen. 17. Sith then Mr. Marshall and Dr Holmes both say ( and so indeed you say all in effect ) that the command for circumcision of infants was a command to us to baptize them , and therefore ( unless we can shew that command to be remanded again ) it is still in force to bind us to baptize them , I dare be bold to tell them that if infant circumcision , and infant baptism were both commanded together in that one and the same precept Gen. 17.10 . where God bidds Abraham , and his seed to circumcise their children , then they are both uncommanded again in that one and the same prohibition , wherein God by the mouth of Paul forbad the Iews to circumcise their children any longer : I say if infants baptism were commanded in that very command for the circumcision of infants , then by Analogy , for contrarior●m contraria est ratio , infants baptism must needs be remanded in the remanding of infants circumcision , the remanding of which by Paul , among all the Iewes that dwelt among the Gentiles , where he mainly exercised his Ministrie , is related plainly Acts 21.21 . To conclude then though I utterly deny , as being well assured that nor Dr. Holmes nor Mr. Marshal neither have yet , nor ever will make it good , that the precept for circumcision , is so much as a virtual or consequential command to baptize infants , yet , if it be , I hope they will receive the same Law they give , and rest satisfyed in it , that this Countermand to circumcise infants , is a consequential and virtual countermand also to baptize them . By all which it appears still that there is not only no precept , but also plain prohibition enough of infant baptism . And as there is no precept , so neither is there any president of baptizing infants , as there was of circumcising them of old , from which practise of circumcision therefore there is no consequence to infant-baptism : there is not one example to be found any where upon the file of such a thing , as infant baptism , unless it be in your Parish Registers , and there indeed you may shew us , not only three or four hundred ( as vpon occasion of our calling for example , Mr Kentish in a discourse we had with him and Mr Glenden at Swevenock said he could ) but as many as we can shew you of baptized believers in the Scripture-Register , viz. no less then three or four thousand : but this , though it satisfy them that live by the example of the world , yet will in no wise serve their turns that live by the example of the Word , and therefore Ms Kents negative precept , of non express prohibition , and Mr Kentish his popish president of parish church admission may go both together , as things that can never pass for currant among the true Christians of Kent , though they pass for good proof of infant-baptism among most Kentish Christians , and Priest-ridden people : As for the Scriptures , there 's not so much as the least shew of any example of baptizing infants in them , for howbeit you draw in the several housholds , that were baptized , as that which you would fain seem to make somewhat of , to this purpose , yet how well they serve your turn that way judge ye , when as whether there were at all any one infant in any one of them , is confessed to be uncertain by your selves : so Mr. Blake , Birth-priv . p. 22. and also a matter so immaterial that the cause doth not depend upon it at all ; so Mr. Marshall to Mr Tombes , p. 218. yet both he , and Mr. Blake and Dr. Featley p. 42.43 . and I think well-nigh every one that writes presses all these , housholds as a president , and forces from them all they have in them , and more too in proof of infant baptism . Babist . We have examples not to be contemned of the baptism of whole housholds ( saies Mr. Blake ) and whether infants were there or no , as it is not certain , though probable , so it not material . The president is an houshold he that follows the president must baptize housholds , it appears not that there were wives there yet be that followes the president of baptizing housholds , must baptize Wives , and so I may say ( quoth he ) Servants if they be of the houshold . Baptist. Pray stay Sirs , not to fast at first least you run your selves out of breath at last . Is this a competent account upon which to baptize wives , and servants too , as well as infants , viz. if they be of the houshold , then tell me whether unbelieving wives , and unbelieving servants , may not be of the houshold , where the husband , and Master believeth ; and if so must these also be baptized ? for shame call in that again , this is a pigge of the old sow , believers children are of the Nations ( and I wonder what man , woman or child is not ) therefore they must be baptized . For shame also forbear to name those housholds any more , as presidents of infant-baptism , wherein your selves confesse that it is not certain that there were any infants , nor materiall whether there were any or no. Babist . You shall find , saies Mr. Marshall , the Gospell took place just as the old administration , by bringing in whole families together , usually if the Master of the house turned Christian , his whole family came in , and were baptized with him . Baptist. Just so Sirs , and not a jot otherwise ? what not one way , nor other otherwise , then of old ? Then first me thinks the wife and other females should not be actually baptized with him but rather virtually , be baptized in the husband ; for you say just so it was in the administration of circumcision . Secondly , Then I marvel in my heart how it came to pass that there was such quaerying whether believing husbands , and unbelieving wives , believing wives , and unbelieving husbands , believing Servants , and unbelieving Masters , &c. might not live together , and resolution given affirmatively that they might , if that there were whole Families taken into the Gospell all together . Thirdly , But most of all I wonder how there was such quarrelling as there was , and Christ said there would ever be in families about the Gospel , that instead of imbracing it all together , they would be divided against themselves for the Gospels sake , so that from thenceforth that the Gospel began there should be five divided about it in one hou●e , two against three , and three against two , the Fath●r against the Son , a●d the Son against the Father . the Daughter against the Mother , and the Mother against the Daughter , the Daughter in Law against the Mother in Law , and the Mother in Law against the Daughter in Law , the husband against the wife , and the wife against the husband , so that he must be fain to keep the doors of his lipps from her that lies in his bosom , Mich. 7.5 . and a mans foes ( for the Gospel sake ) should be those of his own house Luke 12.51 , 52 , 53. and also such oppositions on earth in countreys , and Nations , whereby Christs disciples should still be dagged before the Rulers , and Governors , that under one pretence or other should still persecute the Gospel till Christ comming ( for till then the term of Nursing Fathers falls not to them ) which i●methodical , and tottered face of things , which was at the beginning of the Gospel and is to be again towards the end , at the Gospels resurrection from under popish superstition and mans tradition , that hath made it void , I have often seen , and do see daily in that true , though troublesome , way of the Gospel we now walk in , but I never saw it in all my daies in that false , smooth , fine , fashionable , formal , forced , national Gospel of yours , where whole families , Countreys , and Kingdomes . i. e. all the folk within such a Dominion , are threatned into one Mock-Christian Religion , whether they will or no : I wonder I say how all this should come to pass , if as of old the whole Nation , and therein the whole families of the Jewes were taken in at once to that covenant , so now ( and so you say all it is now ) whole Nations , and therein whole families , and housholds without exception , are to be brought in and baptized all at once into the Gospel . Sure I am that though persons were so born Christians to the Popes , Prelates , and Presbyters crooked Christianity , viz. of the flesh and of blood , and of the meer will of man , making lawes to compell them so to be , yet none are , by right , to be admitted to Christs Christendome , but such Ioh. 1.12.13 . as appear by faith to be born of God. Babist . But me thinks ( as Mr. Marshal sates well ) the whole houshold of Cornelius , the houshold of Stephanus , the houshold of Aristobulus , the houshold of Cri●pus , the houshold of Narcissus , the houshold of Lydia , the houshold of the Jaylor , these are examples for baptizing whole housholds ( and so consequently infants ) not to be contemned . Baptist. I muse much why the houshold of Caesar is not named as well as all the rest , but then Mr. Marshall had clearly contradicted his own assertion , viz. that whole families were taken in all at once : for there were many famous disciples and Christians that imbraced the Gospel in Caesars houshold , though Caesar was no Saint nor Christian himself . Babist . It is not said the houshold of Caesar , but they of Caesars houshold . Baptist. Nor is it said the houshold of Aristobulous , and Narcissus , but them of Aristobulus , and Narcissus's houshold , which shewes that though with him these two masters were disciples themselves , yet but some of their housholds were disciples with them , yet he alledges these as examples of infants baptism , when in the Scriptures nomination of them there is no nomination of infants , or baptism either . As for all the rest if they are not to be contemned , yet are they not to be confided in , unless there were much more then is expressed , at least implied to such a purpose , as exemplary proof for infants baptism : for if those whole housholds were all , and every one in them baptized , yet possibly no infant , for all that : for at this hour I know some whole housholds of baptized believers , that have not so much as an infant within them : yea one where there is or lately was both parent , children or grand children all baptized , and yet no infant nor infant baptism amongst them neither : and indeed howbeit the word [ whole houshold ] is no where named in the new Testament in relation to this case , yet I do believe that whole housholds might sometimes be baptized then as well as now they are , from whence yet it will not follow that infants were baptized , yea whole thousands were baptized sometimes in one day , and yet no infants among them ; and that all these housholds you so often instance in , either had no infants in them , or if they had yet none baptized however , is evident enough to those that are not blind , if all the particular instances be examined . As for the Iaylor , the Apostles , who never used to preach to infants , spake to him the word of God , and to all that were in his house , the effect of whose preaching was not onely his rejoicing and belief , but the belief of all his house also , as well as the baptism of all his house together with him , Act. 16.32.33.34 . And as for Crispus , whose houshold is not reported to be baptized ( though no doubt they were so ) it s said that all his houshold believed in the Lord as well as he , Acts 18.8 . and as for such as were baptized with Cornelius , which were more then they of his own houshold , that none of them were infants , t is evident , forasmuch as they were all both ready and capable to hear , and the holy spirit fell on them all in hearing the word , so that it was evident to Peter , and as many as came with him , that they imbraced the glad tidings of the Gospel ; upon the account of whose gladly receiving the word onely , and that apparently ; Peter saies who can forbid water why these may not be baptized & c ? and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord , Act. 10.44 . to 48. And as for Stephanus's houshold , as they are said 1 Cor. 1.16 . to have been baptized , so are they all said to have addicted themselves to minister to the Saints which are actions exclusive of Infants 1 Cor. 16.15 . besides , if housholds must needs be taken as comprising infants , then that phrase salute the houshold of Onesiphorus 2 Tim. 4.19 . must be taken so to , and what absurdity were it , to tell Cradle-bed-Infants , that Paul the prisoner remembred his respects unto them : as for that of Lydia , as its likely enough she then had none , so no man knowes whether ever she had any husband at all , if she had she might have no children , if she had children she might be an antient widow , whose children were grown up to believe with her , and besides that those of her houshold , whether children or servants or both , that were baptized with her , were not infants but adult disciples is evident , both by that compellation viz. the brethren ( a denomination never given to them ) and mostly because they were such as the Apostles did actually comfort ( as we never find they did any infants in their infancy ) Act. 16.14.40 . By all which by that time you have laid it to heart , so little ground will be left you from all these instances for the baptizing of infants , that it may without crouding , be well written within the inside of a cherry-stone . And now whereas Mr. Marshal , more downrightly then rightly , denies that children did eat the passeover , which most undoubtedly they did . I demand of him why , if housholds be a term so conclusive of infants , when its said housholds were baptized , the same word doth not as much conclude children , when its said housholds did eat the passeover . Babist . Mr. Marshal himself gives you good reason for that p. 40. of his Sermon , the Argument ( saith he ) from the term houshold , is not so strong to prove that infants did eat the passeover , as it is to prove they may be baptized , because no other Scripture shews that the passeover doth belong to children , but we have other plain Scripture proving that baptism belongs to infants , as well as grown men . Baptist. I remember indeed that Mr. Marshall speaks thus : yea more ( and more absurdly then thus ) doth he speak p. 219. in his reply to Mr. Tombos viz. that we shall never find so good evidence out of the housholds eating the passeover , Exod. 12. thereby to prove that women did eat the passeover as this proves that the infants of the house were baptized : but I must tell him first , that what influence other Sciptures give toward the proof of either one or the other makes these never the stronger simply , and in themselves , so but that their particular strength and weaknesse stands the same , but Secondly , how dares Mr. Marshall say there 's no other Scipture save that , is not that one particular sentence wherein the word houshold is exprest as eating the paschal lamb enough ? specially when the next verse ▪ or the latter part of the same verse viz. Exod. 12.4 . saies plainly , that it was to be taken and eaten according to the number of souls in the house , and by every one according to his eating , and if the family were too little to eat i● , they should join families together ; are not children exprest undeniably here ? are they not among the number of souls capable to eat , every one pro suo modulo , according to the measure of his eating and digestion ? and doth not this evince as much for women ? And whereas , for the exemption of women ( not as holding these did not eat it , but to secure himself the more from that deadly wound , which he is aware will light upon him if he grant that children did eat the passeover viz. our arguing upon him from thence to their right to the supper , acccording to his own arguing from infants circumcision to their baptism ) he brings this reason viz. because according to us they were not circumcised , and no uncircumcised person might eat the passeover , I have to or three things to say to it . First , that phrase , no uncircumcised person shall eat it , must either necessarily be understood concerning those uncircumcised ones onely , who were both capable of circumcision , and of whom circumcision was required , or else Secondly ▪ ●t must be understood that the females were accounted as vertually circumcised in the males . Thirdly , that very phrase that excludes all , and onely such uncircumcised ones from the passeover as were capable of circumcision , and of whom it was required , serves us against you thus far however as to include and enright all them to the passeover that were circumcised , and so if women did not ( as none need doubt but that they did ) yet all circumcised males , and cons●quently male children , as soon at least as they were capable to eat , were under a right to eat the passeover , and so as to prove you who deny them the supper , to be ingaged in the guilt of diminishing Gods grace , and robbing poor infants of their right , as well as we , if your own arguments be true , viz. that to deny such dispensations to infants under the Gospel , the answerable ones to which were dispensed to them under the law , is to lessen the grace of God in the Gospel Covenant , and make it straiter then it was under the Law , and to bereave little children of what belongs to them . Thus Mr. Marshal , where by the word housholds he should understand children as well as others , for his own ends he leaves them out ; but where by the word housholds such families are exprest , as in which he knows not that there was one infant , and may know ( if there were ) by the very places themselves , that they were excluded , yet there he winds things about to wind them in . By all this you see how little consequence is in the Argument , children were circumcised . Ergo they must be baptized . Yea ( say you A●hford disputants in the tail of your argument ) or else the Covenant of the Gospel is worse to the spiritual seed of Abraham , then it was to the carnall seed under the law . Bus Sirs ( to conclude this matter ) I say no , for if by spirituall seed you mean Christians natural infants , I must ( as before ) cry shame on you still , for stiling them the spiritual seed of Abraham , for if Abrahams own semen carnis be not ( qua sic ) his semen fidei , are the semen carnis of believing Gentiles Abrahams semen fidei ? but if by his spiritual seed you mean such as are so indeed i. e. true believers , are this spiritual seed ere the worse because a meer fleshly seed , may not without faith be signed as heirs together with them ? how will you ever be able to make that good ? yet again ( to take your words so punctually as may be ) by mee● denial of baptism to your carnal seed , is the Gospel made worse to Abrahams spiritual seed , then the same Gospel was to Abrahams carnal seed of old ? no such matter , surely Sirs , for the Gospel was preacht but darkly to the Jews of old , which were Abrahams carnal seed , viz. onely in types , and figures , and shadows , and prophecies pointing out onely Christum exhibendum , a saviour to come , but now it s preacht not only to believers ( that is Abrahams spiritual seed ) but also to unbelivers , and to the whole world , and this more plainly too , and without a vail , holding forth salvatorem exhibitum , a saviour that hath already offered himself a ransom , and salvation by him in common to all , Iews and Gentiles , bond and free , even every creature that puts it not away from him , when ●endered to him , Mark. 16.15.16 . 1 Iohn 2.2 . so that the Gospel is as good now to the full to all men in its administration as it was of old , and in many respects far better , though no infants at all be baptized , and so I have done with this argument , and come to the next . Disputation . That opinion which destroyeth the comfort that the holy ghost administreth over the losse of our children by death , is a desperate and ungodly opinion . But such is the opinion of the Anabaptists concerning little children . Ergo , it is desperate and ungodly . The minor proved . It destroyes the hope that parents can have of the salvation of their children , for it makes them in no better condition then Turks and Pagans , and so our Respondent himself professed , and when the Apostle saith 1 Thess. 4.13 . I would not have you sorrow as those without hope , the grieved parents might reply ; what hope can we have of our child , who is in no better condition then the children of infidels ? what comfort can we have from the Covenant made with , and the promises to our children & c ? therefore why should we not sorrow as those without hope ? Our Respondent replyed to this , that for ought he knew the children of Turks and Pagans might be all saved , and one replyed , Perhaps he thought the devils might also , which was the end of the argument , there being no other answer given , nor to be expected . Disproof . As I replied then , so I reply still , that for ought I know the children of Turks and Pagans ( dying in infancy ) may be all saved , yet will it not follow ( so much as probably ) that therefore in reallity , or in my opinion either , the Devils may be saved also , which rude return is recorded by your selves to be then given , and stands for ever before the world , as the end of this your argument , and of your Disputation also , there being to this assertion of mine viz. for ought I know the children , or dying infants of Turks and Pagans may be all saved , no other answer given by you in the Dispute , nor yet since in your Account , nor yet ever to be expected . But Sirs , as great an Extasie as you seem to be in about this position , yet I assure you if I had not learn'd it before , yet I have learn't it since from your very selves , who so strange at it , to be a thing not so strange as true viz. that the dying infants of Turks and Pagans may be all saved , and that the dying infants in your Christendom are in no better condition then the dying infants of Turks and Pagans ( for so I said , and not as you here misrelate it , then Turks and Pagans themselves ) for if the dying infants of infidels are in no worse condition then your dying infants , then surely yours are in no better condition then they , and that they are in no worse condition then yours , nothing need hinder you more then me ( for ought I know ) from a belief thereof , unlesse you will refuse to believe your selves , who preach no lesse both to me , and all men no further off hence then in the next page , and the next save one above ; for do you not say there that unlesse we will violate Christian charity , whose rule is praesumere &c. to presume every one to be in a good condition , till he appears to be in an evil , we must believe and hope all things of the little children of believers , since it cannot appear in infancy , that they have barred themselves , &c. and if so why not of the infants of Turks , Pagans , and infidels ? specially ( to speak in your own dialect ) since it cannot appear that these have any more than the other by any actual sin barred themselves , or deserved to be exempted from the general state of little children declared in the Scriptures , which is this , viz. That of such is the Kingdome of heaven . You see then how you teach us this precious piece of truth your selves p. 4.5 . therefore I hope you will learn it your selves , viz. that we are to hope well of such infants as have not by actual sin barred themselves from Salvation , and allow us to teach it too in time , though hitherto you seem to be so far from giving way to us to teach the same , that when we speak well of infants , that have not by actual sin deserved exemption , and hope well of their salvation so dying , you so wretchedly forget it to be the doctrine your selves deliver , that with detestation you protest against it as abominable , as if there were as little hope to be had of the salvation of such dying infants , as are not born in Christendome , as of the salvation of the very devils : but your first doctrine shall stand of the two for truth with me , from which , though you often contradict it your selves , I shal not be frighted by your bigg words , but still hope as well of one dying infant as another . Secondly ( Risum teneatis amici ? ) it is enough I think to set him on smiling who is never so deep in his dumps , to see what a most pat , and pertinent place of Scripture you have here dragged in to the proof of infant baptism , viz. 1 Thes. 4.13 ▪ from whence ( as the wheel barrow goes rumble to rumble so ) it followes that infants are to be baptised : you might as well have said you may find it in the fifteenth of go look it , as send us to a text of so little tendency as this is of , to your present purpose : for what if we are not to mourn over the death of Saints , and Godly friends that sleep in Jesus , as those that can have no hope of such friends as they see to dy ung●dly ( which is indeed the direct drift of the place ) will it therefore follow that all those infants , that dy without baptism , are universally , and unavoidably damned ? yet no less then this is here told by your selves to be your tenet , whilst you say our denial of baptism unto them destroies all hope of their salvation . But Sirs is it so in earnest in your opinion , that no baptism no hope of salvation ? Then thirdly , I have a treble charge to draw up against you . 1. of unchristian cruelty . 2. Of point blank popery . 3. of clear contrariety both to your selves , and to those very authors you refer us to , to read and learn by , and also to the very professed doctrine of the church of England whereof you profe●s to be the Ministers . First I must cry out oh the Vnchristian cruelty that is hatched in your hearts , and here expressed , not onely to these thousands of infants , even of Christians that happen to dy unbaptized , at least to whom baptism is at this day denyed to be dispensed , but specially to that numberless number of infants of Turks , Pagans , and infidels , to whom in infancy your own Doctrine denies baptism , as well as ours , and consequently ( if your own bloody tenet of no baptism no salvation to dying in●ants were true ) all hope of their salvation . T is your common course to clamor and cry out against us , as having no christian charitie , as being most inveterate , and cruel enemies to infants , only for denying the baptism of those few , to whom you dispense it , as well as those Myriads of little ones , to whom your selves deny it together with us : but I appeal to all people , who are not already so perfectly prejudiced against us by your prating , as to stand resolved to believe nothing but your blind dictates , to judge between us whether we are so cruelly opinioned towards infants , who barely deny them baptism , believing the salvation notwithstanding of all that dy in infancy without it , or your selves rather , who deny that dispensation to all infidels infants , which are twenty to one in the world , and yet hold that dispensation so necessary to salvation , that there is no hope of other then damnation to whomsoever it is denyed , whereas in confutation of you out of your own mouths ( if your own sense of Mat. 18.14 be true , where you contend to have the word little ones taken literally for infants ) Christ himself saies there , that it is not the will of my Father that so much as one of these little ones should p●rish . Secondly , oh the palpable papistry which is here openly professed by you , who yet would seem to protest against every inch of it , for it is one of the grossest pieces of popery to hold no salvation to infants without baptism , and one great controversie between them and protestants ; yet you give the cause thus far , as to grant it to be necessary , and effectual to salvation of infants ( whether ex opere operato or no , as you are silent in it here , so pray tell us another time ) that there need be neither doubt nor fear of such dying infants damnation to whom it s dispensed , and can be no hope of the salvation of such as dy without it , or at least to whom doctrinally it is denied . Thirdly , oh the wretched contradiction , that is here given . 1. To your selves , who say above p. 5. that it is breach of Christian charity to presume otherwise then well of such little infants , of whom it cannot appear , that by any actuall sin they have barred themselves or deserved exemption from salvation , and such are all infants in infancy , whether baptized or unbaptized , whether of Christians or heathens ; and yet here you say , there is no hope of the dying infants of infidels , and in case we deny baptism to them as little hope of the salvation of such dying infants , as are born of Christian parents also : Hay-Ho ! I dare say the dog is not good Mutton , if this be not uniform Divinity . Secondly , not only to other writers on this subject , as Mr. Cotton , who p. 85. of his book called , The way of the Churches in New-England , saith , one may remain a member of the invisible Church of the first born , when yet he hath neither part nor portion , nor fellowship in the particular flock and visible Church of Christ Iesus ; which shewes ( to the confutation of you , and Mr. Baxter also , who pins the salvation of infants so much upon their Churchmembership and baptism ) that infants may be supposed to be out of the Visible Church , and yet be hoped to be in a state of salvation also ; I say not only to other writers , but to the writers your selves will us to peruse , viz. Calvin , and Vrsin . For first , Vrsins Catechism , ( as insufficient as it is to prove infant baptism ) furnishes us with enough wherewith to confute this unsavory stuff you have here recorded , viz. the hopelesness of the salvation of such infants , to whom baptism is denyed , whose words are these viz. s The want of the sacrament doth not damn persons , that dy without it , if those persons do not contemn it ( and whether infants in infancy can possibly be said to contemn it though their parents permit them to dy without it , needs no great explanation ) again Christ doth not ere the more deny salvation to whom baptism is denyed . Secondly Calvins institutions confesses at large that baptism is not so necessary to salvation as you seem to make it : his words are these Li. 4. c. 15. S. 20. t What mischief that opinion brings viz that baptism is necessary to salvation , few consider , and therefore they take the less heed in asserting it , for where that opinon grows on once , that they are all damned that dye unbaptized , our conditiis worse then that of the Iews , for hereby Christ may be thought to come not to fulfill , but to abolish the promises , if the promise which then was efficacious of it self to salvation before the eighth day , be not now available thereto , without the administration of the sign . and a little below Sect. 22. he saith thus : Infants are not shut out of the kingdom of heaven that dye before baptism , therefore there will no small injury be done to the Covenant of God , unlesse we rest in that alone , as if it were not valid enough of it self , when its efficacy depends neither on baptism , nor any other matters accessary to it . By all this it may be easily perceived not onely who they are that streiten the Grace of God under the Gospel , and make it narrower then of old under the law , viz. not our selves ( as you feign ) but your selves , who say denial of baptism to infants destroyes the hope , that else might be had of their salvation , but also what an individuum vagum your Pamphlet is , wandering and swarving clear aside from the stars , you direct us to for light , and would seem to steer your own course by , Thirdly , to the doctrine of the Church of England , which though it own baptism as a sign and ( falsely enough ) as a seal of the Covenant of Grace that may lawfully at least be dispensed to infants , yet rejects that tenet however , as spurious , and popish that makes salvation and damnation depend so much up-the dispensation , or denial of it to infants , that there 's no hope of the salvation of those infants that dye without it : witnesse Rogers his Analysis of the 39. Articles , of the Catholick doctrine of the Church of England p. 167.168 we condemn ( saith he ) the opinion of the Russeis , that there is such a necessity of baptism , that all that dye without the same are damned , we may see how well the Church of England is serv'd among you , whose own ministers swerve from the sense of those Articles she makes them sweare to . If you mean that a denial not de facto , but de jure i. e. not of baptism it self to infants , but of their right to baptism damns them , and that doctrinally onely , not really , they dying without it , you might have said so then if you had pleased , but your blunt delivery of your selves here , without any modification of your meaning , makes it out , as if you meant to fright the whole Countrey to baptize all their infants in all hast , as ever they mean to have any hope they shall be saved : besides if they be but doctrinally damned , and not really by the denial of baptism to them the matter is so much the lesse , for as they are not one straw the better , whether living or dying in infancy , if they have it , so they cannot be ( as to salvation ) one straw the worse , if they want it , and die without it , and then what need such thundring out of terror to the parents , as if there were no way but one , that is damnation to their dying infants out of hand ; if they do not see to the baptizing of them in infancy before they dye ? moreover , if it be doctrinally to damn all infants to deny their right to baptism , then how damnable is your doctrine to that innocent age , who deny it to no lesse then 20 to one viz. all the dying infants of unbelievers ? but the best on t is though your doctrine is so desperate and ungodly as to declare nought but damnation to all such , as the Pope doctrinally damnes i. e. all that are not born within the pale of the Church , yet there is salvation enough for these infants , as well as for the other in Christ Jesus , whereby till they deserve exemption by actuall transgression , they may be saved really , though with you they are doctrinally damn'd , and with us as well as you deny'd to have , or so much as to have any right at all to baptism . Thus Sirs I have done with your deep Disputation , there remaining no more but a certain magisterial moderation or determination , in which you are your own carvers , taking upon you to manage it by the mouth of him , whose onely arguments all these are , in which piece of your Pamphlet I shall briefly take notice of some passages wherein you speak very fairly of your selves , very fowly , falsly and injuriously of your respondent , very conrradictorily to what you said before , very ignorantly of the word , very impertinently as to the proof of faiths being in , and baptisms belonging to those infants you plead for , more then those you plead against , and then come to consider your Review , you speak as followeth . Determination . Since it hath been proved that little infants have the holy Ghost &c. ( here let there be a recapitulation of the former arguments ) therefore baptism is not to be denied unto them . Detection . Doubting belike whether any stander by can find in his conscience to give so good a testimony , as you afford , and such ample approbation to your Arguments , as you desire and they deserve not , you ingrosse the dijudication of the disputation between yourselves and me , into your own clutches , and then claw your selves in the face of the world , and bestow such commendatories upon your simple shuffles as if it were proved , and put out of doubt thereby that believers infants have the spirit , faith , holinesse , and such apparent right both to heaven and baptism as no creatures have in the world besides them , but having shewed how shallowly , fillily and slenderly you have argued all this above , I decline , detest , and disclaim this your positive dijudication , and make my appeal from the high Commission Chair of you Clergy men , who for ages and generations have sate judges in your own cause , unto the people , whom you have ever mis-led by your blind guidance , to judge between us , among whom not they who have so long commended themselves ( as Orthodox ) will be approved at last , but those whom the Lord commendeth . Determination . If any doubt be raised concerning particular infants , the judgement of Charity will cast that out , especially considering no other judgement can be past upon those that are Adulti . Detection . That the judgement of charity concerning faith , the holy spirit and right to the kingdom can in infancy be past no more upon believers infants , then upon all infants is told us so plainly by your selves , that if you be not resolved that you will never learn any thing that is truth , from your selves you must needs see it as well as we , since you say . p. 18. there is no discovery of the habit of faith , but by the asts , and none by the acts in any infants at all in infancy , and that the spirit is neither bound to work it in all the children of Christians , nor barred from working it in any children of infidel● , and p. 5. that the judgement of charity must so pass , that we are to presume well of all , who by actuall sin have not barred themselves , and deserved exemption , and that there 's better ground to build a judgement of charity concerning faith , and the spirit in adultis , then infantibus , viz. profession and visible manifestation by the fruits and acts , and a better judgement , then that of charity viz. of certainty , is to be had of adult persons right to baptism , we seeing them certainly to professe faith ( as infants cannot ) which whether they deceive us in that profession or no , is clear ground to baptize them on , this I have shewed so sufficiently above , that there needs no more be said of it here . Determination . Our Respondent hath confessed that Ishmael who was that carnall seed of Abraham , yet had right to the seal of the Gospel Covenant circumcision , and that the spirituall seed and their children have under the Gospel , as good right to the seal thereof , which is baptism . Detection . O rare and base ! what again Sirs , what again ? I professedly denyed baptism to be a seal at all ( witnesse my then disavowing the Scotchmans proceedings in the dispute of baptism under the term of initial seal ) I also denied circumcision to be the seal of the Gospel Covenant , or that it was set to Ishmael under such a notion , yea , you your selves are my witnesses but three pages above that I said , circumcision was a seal to Abraham only , and not to his posterity , and yet here again , ( as well as before ) you turn false witnesses against me , and will needs fasten this upon me for a farewell , that I grant all for truth , that your selves ignorantly assert in these particulars , and not content therewith ( a matter more monstrous then all the rest ) you say I confess not only Abrahams spirituall seed themselves , i. e. believers , but their children also to have under the Gospel as good right to baptism , as the seal of it , as they , the direct contrary to which is the Position I stood then to evince , yea which I both then did , do still and ever shall , till you disprove it better than you have yet done , maintain against you or else wherin do we differ ? Sirs , you should have done well to have expressed your minds in plain right down English , and then the scope , sum and scum of them would have risen , and appeared thus , viz. we the Disputers and Scribes of the Ashford disputation having more mind that victory then verity should befal us , and having fi●st given and granted to our selves the priestly prerogative , of being sole judges and determiners of that daies disputation between us and our respondent , do thereupon determine , and by these our letters , pattents , give and grant the cause , and the day to be wholly ours , and least it should be hardly confessed , and yielded to by fair means , we will have it by fowle , and wrest it from our Respondent as fully granted by him , though we know it was not , and take it from him pro confesso by force , even by forged cavillation , and false accusation , and therfore know all men by these presents , that though it be most expresly denied by our Respondent that infants of believers have right to be baptized , yet it is most expresly confessed by him , that infants of believers have good right to be baptized : had you said thus , well indeed might the world have cryed shame on it more then now but in effect it had been but the proper paraphrase of what you have more closely , and covertly presented it with in this place . Wherefore , Sirs , I do you and the world to wit once more , to prevent any ones being charmed into a misbelief of me by your juggles , how little I concur with you in these things , and to say no more then what I have shewed above , viz. First , That baptism is no seal at all of the Covenant of Grace , but a sign of it onely . Secondly , that believers infants have no right at all to be signed with it in infancy . Thirdly , That circumcision was no seal of the Gospel covenant , but a sign only , or token between God and Israel of the old Covenant , concerning the Land of Canaan , and some other particular pe●sonal promises , and priviledges pertaining to that people ( though it was a type of Circumcision in the heart , where with Abrahams spiritual seed are circumcised , and thereby inrighted to the heavenly inheritance . ) Fourthly , that it was no seal at all to any but Abrahams person , and that in another sense then the word seal is accepted in with you ; Fiftly , that it was dispensed to Ishmael under no such notion as a seal of the Gospel covenant , but meerly as he was a male of Abrahams house , on which account it was set to every male born in his house , or bought with his money ; though visibly an heir to neither the earthly , nor the heavenly Canaan , as wicked servants were not , and no doubt to his Sons by Keturah also , as well as to Ishmael , though both he and they before known to Abraham to be no heires of that covenant of circumcision , which God gave him in Gen. 17. and told him that he would establish that with Isaac only Gen. 17.19.21 . Determination . It is further added for satisfaction how children have faith , viz. in Semine , radice , munere , habitu , actu primo , not in fructu , folio , usu , actu secundo , in a word , they have the habit , and the seed , not ths exercise and fruit of it . Detection . You asserted above p. 3. from Mat 18.6 . that little ones do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 credere believe in Christ , which phrase [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] as also [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] &c. to believe , to drink , to eat , to read , to teach , to hear &c. do ever expresse productionem potentiae in actum , not simply the habit , facultie , gift , inclination , power , seed &c. but the very second act , the use , the fruit , the putting forth of these faculties into their several acts , and exercises , this ( as all well studied Schollars know ) so your selves cannot but acknowledge , that to believe , is not only to have faith but to act faith , and it cannot properly be said of any that they do believe , but such as ( quoad nos ) do so indeed . As for such as are onely in potentià ad fidem , though proximâ , and s●ch as are in capacity to believe , and do not , they cannot be said by wisemen to believe , for then all men may be said to believe , who have facultatem , munus credendi , as well as intelligendi , ratiocinandi , Eligendi &c. though they never do it : I appeal therefore to your own consciences , whether your saying that infants do believe , and yet cannot act , nor shew that faith by any fruit of it , hath not in it plus Idiotae quam Idiomatis , and be not as palpable a contradiction as can fall from mens tongues or pens . Determination . Their not declaring of it themselves can no more conclude against infants faith , then against their reasonable soul. Detection . The Reasonable soul is in them universally , essentially , in the highest degree necessarily , and praedicable concerning them de omni , per se , & qua sic , as being de esse constitutive , for Animarationalis est forma hominis , quae dat esse , the very essential form of mankind , so that he can as easily cease to be , as to be without it , therefore there can be no conclusion against that in any infants , sith they are no longer then while they have it , but faith in Christ is ( according to your selves ) Habi●us ad placitum a deo infufus only , not innatus , and is in them neither ( qua sic ) nor essentially nor universally in all , nay but in a few infants , by your own confession , and you know not which neither , for though you do altum sapere so far sometimes , as to conclude it is in infants of believers yet you do insipere fo far sometimes as to undote that again , and say the spirit is neither bound nor barred in his working of it in these or those , so that till they are at yeares there ean be no conclusion made p. 18. therefore me thinks you should blush at this illiterate , and indigested assertion , viz. that there can be no more concluding against the being of faith in them , then their having reasonable souls . Secondly , if from their non declaring it there can be no more concluding against their having faith , then against their reasonable souls , then there is no more concluding against the being of faith in one infant more then its being in another , or against its being in unbelievers infants than in those of believers , for the reasonable soul is in all , even in the infants of unbelievers , as well as of believers . Secondly , if their non-declaring it be no ground to conclude against their having faith , yet I am sure it is ground enough to bar you from concluding that they have it , specially that this infant hath it , more then that , for though you confess there can be no conclusion made till you see the fruits of their faith , yet that is the bold conclusion you undertake to make . Fourthly , whether we can upon its non appearance conclude against their having faith yea or no , yet upon its non appearance we may boldly conclude against their baptism , and admittance into the visible Church here on earth , into which not an invisible habit of faith gives right , but an outward appearance , and profession to believe , witness not my self only , who am of little credit with you , but Mr. Cotton also , none of the least of your Champions that appear for infant baptism , whose very words p. 48.49 . of his Way of the Churches in New England these are , viz. It is not the seed of faith , nor faith it self , that knitteth a man to this or that visible Church , but an holy profession of the faith , and professed subjection to the Gospell of Christ in their communion . Be ashamed therefore of such a monstrous position , that persons not appearing to believe in Christ can conclude no more against their faith in Christ , then against their reasonable souls . Determination . The seed of faith sown , after discovers it self when the season comes . Detection . Yet so audacious are you , that whilest it is but in the seed at most by your own confession , as in infancy , to attempt a discovery of it to all the world to be in these infants , viz. of believers , and not in those , viz. of infidels before the season . Determination . The testimony of Scripture concerning their faith , and the proofs taken from thence are equivalent to the best testimony , and profession of any man concerning his own faith . Detection . O Sapientia ! as if the Scripture did as punctually , personally , and particularly testify concerning this and that individual infant which you sprinkle , that it doth believe , and those infants that you deny to sprinkle , that they do not believe , as men at years do to us by their words , and works , that they do , or do not believe . Secondly , there is but one testimony of Scripture alledged by your selves , where you say it s asserted of infants that they do believe , viz. Mat. 18.6 . and that ( as I have shewed ) . First , speaks not of little ones in your sense , but of little ones in Christs sense viz. believes indeed , and his disciples , whom he stiles little ones also a little above Matth. 10.42 . a place where we read not that any infant was among them . Secondly , that Scripture testifies of those of whomsoever it speaks in actu secundo , that they do believe : and so to do your selves yield is impossible for infants ; therefore it cannot be meant of them . Thirdly , if it did speak of little ones properly so called , so as to say they do believe , yet that they were believers , and not unbelievers infants is a thing which a wise man may fumble himself 55 times over and become a fool before he once find it so to be . Fourthly , 't were but a Prosopopeia however . Determination . If it be further askt , how faith is bread in them ? it is answered by the holy spirit , whose waies are inscrutable , who ties not himself to means works where he will , and how , quo magistro , quam cito discitur quod docet ? saith Cyprian . Detection . And yet you scrue so farr into the inscrutable waies of the spirit in this matter as , though he works where he will , and how , both to bind and bar him , and to determine both where he doth , and must work faith , and where he doth not , and must not viz. in believers infants , not in infants of infidels , else why do you refuse to baptize the one upon non-appearance of faith , and yet plead for the baptism of the other , as in whom it appears to you so clearly , that by argument you say you make it more plainly appear to any one , that will not deny Scripture and reason that they have faith , then the profession of any one particular person that ever I baptized , can make it appear of himself ? for thus you peremptorily conclude p 5. and then as prettily unconclude it all ore again p. 18. saying , unlesse it could be certainly presumed what children have the habit of faith , what have not , for the working of the spirit is not known to us , there can be no conclusion made : why also do you say the promise is to believers and all their seed ? which is as much as to say , God is bound upon his word and covenant unto these children , not unto others , and therefore must be as good as his word ( for I hope you all agree that God will not lie ) p. 14. though I confesse p 18. you unsay all this ore again , and grant that he is not bound to work it in all the children of Christian parents , nor bard from working it in any of the children of infidels : O fine whifles ! Determination . If it be inquired how faith can be said to be in them without their consent ? the answer is as well as originall sin , to which they never consented , and that Christ is more powerful to salvation , then Adam to condemnation . Detection . That original sin is in infants so far as it is in them without their consent , I do not deny , it being a matter more imputative , as I have shewed above , then inhaesive , and that Christ is more powerful to salvation , then Adam was to condemnation is an undoubted truth , which makes me believe otherwise then once I did , viz. that whatsoever befel whomsoever meerly by Adams sin is as universally , as well in respect of the subject made miserable thereby viz. whole mankind , as of the misery befalling that subject , by the coming of the Second Adam taken away : for which tenet I could give more proof then you can easily disprove , were it not besides the Argument I am in hand with , but that faith is in any persons without the consent of those in whom it is , is a lesson that I shall never consent to learn while mine eies are open , I have found many Divines defining faith by the very term of an assent or consent unto the things promised , preacht , profered or propounded to us to believe , and making assent or consent such a necessary ingredient to the very essence , being or nature of faith , that faith cannot be faith without it , thus Mr. Baxter your fiercest fellow-fendent of infants baptism , the very essence of faith , saith he p. 98. lyeth in assenting that Christ is king and saviour , and consenting that he be so to us . Yea he denies them to have any true faith who do not thus assent and consent , but of all the faiths that ever I have heard , or read of , and of all the kinds of believing that ever were broacht in the brains of men , I never yet heard of a believing of things whether one will or no , I mean a real believing , and not such a feigned forced faith , as that of those who must say they believe as the Church believes , when happily they know not what that is , nor did I ever hear of believing without assenting to the things believed since I was born , till I met with this figment of yours , nor ever shall again , I am perswaded while the world stands from any men , but such as having uttered one absurdity , are resolved rather then to recant it , to uphold it with an 100 worse then it self . Determination . It is further added , that there is no other way revealed for the salvation of little infants but by justification , and that by faith : that way of the presentment of the righteousness of Christ without faith is a figment of the Anabaptists without ground or reason from Scripture , the Covenant of the Gospel being the righteousness of faith . To which I contradictorily reply , that there is another way revealed for the salvation and justification of little infants from all the guilt that lies upon them in infancy , which is no other then that which comes upon them for the sin of Adam onely , and from all that mischief which comes on them onely , meerly and simply for that sin , then that way of faith , and that is the presentment of the righteousnesse of Christ to God on their behalf without faith , and this way is no figment of the Anabaptist , as you No-Baptists do foolishly fancy , but that which hath such strong ground and reason from Scripture , as you will never overthrow while you live , although to men at years that have acted transgression in their own persons , and are capable to act faith and other good as well as evil , the Gospel is granted to be a Covenant that gives righteousnesse by Christ in no other way then that way of faith and obedience to him . We usually put cloaths upon infants , but men put their clothes on themselves , and so must we put on Christ by faith in order to justification , when we come to years of discretion Gal. 3.27 . and not before . I know the multitude of Scriptures that speak in general , or at least in such indefinit terms , as are in sense equivalent to universal , concerning salvation to all them that believe , and nothing but condemnation to all them that believe not , as Mark 16.15.16 . Iohn 3.15.16.18.19.36.11.26 . Act. 10.42 . Act. 13.43 . Rom. 1.17.3.22.25.26.28.30.4.6.24 . a most monstrous mistake of all which , as also of the whole Scripture makes you miserably misbelieve this matter viz. the way that all dying infants are saved in , for you deem , or rather dream that the Lord by these expressions , whosoever believeth in me shall never dye , he that believeth not shall be damned , he that believeth not on the Son shall not see life , &c. delivers his will and testament not onely concerning persons at age , but concerning infants in their very infancy also : whereas if you Divines had not Divin'd your selves to very dotage , you could not but understand , that little infants are not intended in any of these , or any other places that hold out faith as the way of our salvation : for do but judge in your selves , were it not shameful senslessnesse to read thus out of those places viz. God so loved the world &c. that whosoever infants in infancy as well as men believe in him should not perish , but have everlasting life , those infants that do believe on him are not condemned , but those infants that believe not , are condemned already , and why ? because they have not believed in the name of the onely begotten Son of God : And this shall be the condemnation of infants as well as men , that light and life is come to them , and yet infants believe it not , neither will come unto Christ that they might have life , but but love darknesse more then light , because their deeds are evil ? for thus you may read it , if infants as well as men be there meant : and so were it not sottish to read thus out of Rom. 4.23 . it was not written for Abraham onely that faith was imputed to him for righteousnesse ▪ but for infants also , to whom it shall be imputed , if they do believe on him , that raised up Iesus our Lord from the dead &c. so would it sound any whit savourly in the ears of one that 's of a sound judgement to read Mark. 16.15.16 . so as to understand infants together with others viz. go preach the Gospel to every creature , who ere believeth , and is baptized shall be saved , but whoever believes not , man or woman , old or young , infant or suckling shall be damned ? would not this grate harshly upon charitable ears ? but surely infants are not spoken of here , nor are they in any other Scripture ( for ought I can find ) with the best sight I have , where faith is spoken of , as the condition on our part , without which nothing is to be expected but condemnation : I am sorry Sirs to see you Clergy men cloath your selves with such darke conceits , and confusednesse of mind , as not to know of whom , and to whom things are spoken in the word , nor whom in general the Scriptures , you professe to be so profound in , concern and preach to , and I beseech you be not too wise in your own conceits to learn one lesson at least from him that is a fool among you for Christs sake viz. whereas you say infants must believe , or not be saved , the Scriptures declaring no other way to salvation but faith in Christ , that the Scriptures were written only for our instruction , that are at years to understand them , and not for the use and instruction of infants in infancy in the way of life , the Scriptures were given as a coppy of the testament , and the will of God concerning men and women , to declare to them what he requires of them , and in what way he would have them to wait upon him , in order to the attaining of that salvation he hath purchased by the blood of Christ , and will freely confer on them for his sake viz. the way of faith , repentance , baptism , supplication , submission , self-denial , obedience both active and passive , perseverance therein to the end , and in a word attendance to the law of Christ the voice of that prophet , that he hath now raised up , in all things , or else to have no part among his people , from all which conditions and performances ( I say from every of them as well as any one of them ) from believing as well as obeying in baptism , or any other part of his will , or any other works of God under the Gospel , among which belief is a chief one Iohn 6.28.29 . little infants ( as being yet uncapable subjects to obey in any of these ) are universally exempred in their infancy : otherwise I dare a vouch no dying infants in the world shall ever be saved ; for can they do any of these things in infancy ? so such as are to be baptized are called to do , Act. 22.16 . and who ever so doth shall be saved , and whoever doth not shall perish , Ier. 10.25 , if the way wherein men are to be saved must be walkt in by all infants too , in order to their salvation , then wo to all infants that die in non-age , for alas how shall infants call on him , in whom they have not believed , and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not yet heard , and how shall they hear without a Preacher , and who can preach to them before they can understand ? Rom. 10.14.15 . so then they cannot believe , for faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of God , some way or other outwardly as well as inwardly preached . Babist . The spirit here speaks de subjecto capaci onely viz , of the way how men come by faith , and not of the way wherein infants have it , and t is confest that faith in adultis , in them that are capable to hear and understand is begotten by this means of hearing , but not so in infants who cannot hear , the spirit is not tyed to work by means in little infants , to the bringing of them to the faith , as he doth in men , but without the outward hearing of the word he works saith in little children . Baptist. This same that you now say fits us very well to you ward again , when you say justification comes by faith , for we grant that adultis , to them that are capable to act faith , justification comes by faith , nor shall they by any means obtain it who are capable to believe , and yet believe not , but not so to infants who cannot believe , the spirit is not tied to work by means in little infants to the justification or bringing of them to salvation , as he doth in men , but by the righteousnesse of Christ imputed without obedience in baptism or faith either he saves them in nonage , and farther that they cannot believe , which is properly ( as I shewed before ) not onely to have , but act faith in Christ , your selves tell us saying , they have not the use , the second act , the exercise , the fruit of it , and so do not believe , and so must according to your sense of Scripture , if the word speak of them , be cast into the lake of fire Rev. 21.8 . but further grant they could have faith in both the habit , and act of it also , yet can they not obey Christ in other things , which are required necessarily to salvation in the word of the Gospel , at least concomitanter , et consecutivè , as well as faith it self , they cannot hear Christs voice in all things , they cannot confess Christ before men , nor to be come in the flesh , they have not crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts of it , they cannot deny themselves , and take up their cross and follow Christ , nor hate father and mother and life for him , nor keep his commandments , nor abide in his Doctrine , and many such like things , all which the Gospel saies as universally , whosoever doth not , as well as whosoever believes not cannot be his disciple Mat. 18. Luke 14. Is not Christs Gal. 5.24 . hath not God 2 Iohn 9. is a lyar , and shall not enter into the holy City 1 Iohn 2.4 . Rev. 21.27.22.14.15 . is a deceiver , and an Antichrist 2 Iohn 7. shall be denyed by Christ , yea punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of Christ , for non obedience to the Gospel , 2 Thes. 1.6 . so that if the Scriptures speaking , of the waies and means of salvation be to be understood as the terms , and conditions on which dying infants shall be saved as well as men , and without which they must be damned , then all dying infants must perish contrary to your sense of Mat. 18.14 . who take the little ones there for infants , for it s said there it is the will of my Father that not one of these little ones should perish , put the case therefore that infants could believe , yet their case would be little the better ( as to salvation ) so long as still they must be short of shewing their faith by other good works , without which faith is not saving nor worth a straw , for what would it profit if infants could go so far , as to say they have faith , and yet have not works , can faith save them ? Iam. 2. 14.26 . no , its dead and helpless for as the body without the spirit is dead , so faith without works is dead also . Therefore the body of Scripture is to be understood , as spoken concerning men and women , and the means and way of their salvation ; and not of infants . Babist . Yea when the word speaks of works of holiness , self denyal , suffering , mercy , &c. as the way to life , which infants cannot do , it excepts them from the doing thereof , as no capable subject , and not from the salvation nevertheless , nor yet doth at except infants when it speaks of faith . Baptist. Is not faith a work as well as repentance , and the rest ? yea the main and principal work of the Law of Christ , i. e. the Gospel Iohn 6.28.29 . Secondly , is it not as difficult a work for infants to believe in Christ , as to obey Christs voice in other things , and are they not still as uncapable a subject to do that , as to do any more things that are required ? why then not exempted from that for the sake of their incapacity , as well as from other things ? Thirdly , if the spirit doth go extraordinary waies to work at all about the salvation of infants ( as you must confess he must ) and brings them to it without , and besides the ordinary means , he brings men by , why will you tie , and limit him him more to the ordinary way , and meanes of faith , then of obedience in other matters , as repentance , self denyal &c , as to their salvation , seeing he must go out of the road , and tract , in the saving of them , wherein he saves men , may be not as well save infants without faith , without which he will save no man , as without self deniall , and suffering , and confessing of Christ , &c. without which he will save no man ? Fourthly , specially since infants are not mentioned as meant a jot more in the places that speak of salvation by faith , then in the places that speak of salvation by obedience in all things ; for as it is said , He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved , and be that believeth not shall be damned , ( infants no where expressed or meant there ) so t is said as universally he is the Author of all them that obey him , and he shall take vengeance on all them that obey him not , and cut them off that hearken not to his voice ( infants no way expresly excepted as not meant there . ) The Scriptures therefore are still to be understood de subjecto capaci , when they promise or threaten things on conditions , and terms of faith , unbelief , and other good and evill works , as confessing and denying Christ , and exclusively of infants , where infants cannot possibly perform them ; for as when it s said he that works not let him not eat , infants are no where excepted , yet are not by the spirits appointment to starve , though they work not , neither are they meant there because they cannot work , and as under law , when it was said , Cursed is he that continues not in every thing written therein , and do this and live , the way wherin men were to live or dy was set forth by those words , and not the way wherein infants should be cursed or blessed , accordingly as they were or were not found therein in infancy ; so Analogically when it 's said under the Gospel the just must live by faith and he that believes not shall be damned , and Christ in flaming ●ire shall render vengeance to him that obeys not the Lord , &c. it is to be understood as spoken of the waies , wherein men walking shall live or dy , and not at all of the way wherein he saves or damnes dying infants , for that stands still by good reason from Scripture that they being uncapable to do , what on mans part is required to life , i. e. to act belief ( unless wee l hold they are all damned dying in nonage , as you pittiful merciless men hold that 20 to one are , but we bloody Baptists that none at all are ) we must hold them to be excused from the terms of believing , and presented righteous before the Father , by the righteousness of Christ without faith , and therefore though I see I shall meet with this argument again in your Review , where I le talke with it a little more , yet I le conclude here just contrarily to what you conclude with , viz. that the tenet of no justification nor salvation for dying infants by the righteousness of Christ without faith in their own persons , is a meer figment of the Arch-Anti-baptists , i. e. the Priests , without ground and reason from Scripture , whereby ( as by ●ome shew of reason ) to flatter men on to a continuance in that false way of bringing infants to be sprinkled , that so their Kingdome and priesthood many continue to spread its black wings over whole provinces and parishes at once , and to submit them to their arbitrary jurisdiction , as well a ware that it can stand no longer then the other , for once give over christening the whole parish infancy , and then farewell that parish posture , which the Pope set up in all Christendome some 600 years ago , yea then down falls the parochial-Church-steeple-house , Priest-hood , pay and all . Amen so be it . THE SECOND PART OF ANTI-BABISME . OR A REVIEW OF THEIR REVIEW . I Come now to take notice of the second piece of your Pamphle● a thing made up of several sorts of matter , and trickt together into one slender Tractate , and entituled A Review of the Arguments used in the Disputation , my Animadversion of which I answerably stile a Re-Review or Review of your Review . In which Review of yours I find some things said , and disputed over again , which are before disputed in the Disputation ; somethings ( as it were ) unsaid , and undisputed ore again , which are disputed before in the Disputation ; and somthings , viz. here a little , and there a little disputed , which the Disputation disputes not before at all . So that the business ( if you view it one way ) stands ternal , i. e. brancht out into 3 heads , barking all like those of Cerberus against the light : but if you review and behold it another way it seems to stand Quaternall or quartered out into four heads , acting all in their several turns against the truth , viz. First , A Preaamble or March towards the battle , p. 11 , 12. Secondly , An Onset , or charge given by a Forlorn hope of three worthies , or choice Arguments , whereof the first is a freshman , that was not in the last dispute , the two last old Souldiers that are bold to fac● about and fight us again , though wounded well-nigh to death in the last battel , p. 12.13.14.16 . Thirdly , A very hot dispute or Reply against Reason , and its forces storming your strong hold of infant-baptism , or an earnest encounter with such objections , as Reason ( saie you ) makes against it , all which you make a puff at , and attempt to vanquish in seven or eight several repul●es p. 16.17.18.19 . Fourthly , A Bugbear bringing up the Rear of the battel , horribly dressed , and horned with seven horns , all pushing and poking against the truth , on purpose to to fright men from being baptized , and make such as are ready to turn to the truth to tremble , and forsake its tents ; alias a warning , or Morter-piece charged with a number of small shot , viz. the horrid sins this wretched errour of the Anabaptists , alias tha● odious error of owning the truth involves men in ) that more hits then hurts them that have the spiritual armour on , presented and discharged to scare the Christian Souldier , i. e. the Christian Reader ( if possible ) out of his Christian wits and senses . Thus does this Squadron of militarie matter made and raised in defence of Infant-baptism divide it self , and play its part : against which notwithstanding we shall ( God willing ) adventure forth in the strength of Christ , give battel to it , and to each part of it successively as it lies in order . Review . There might innumerable Arguments be brought both from Scripture and Reason for the confirming of the practise of the Church of God from the beginning , whose authority alone , if it were of any esteem with the adversaries thereof , were enough to have silenced these disputes , at least to have laid the itch , and quenched the heat of them , in baptizing the children of believing parents , but as the hast of the Disputation did forbid the Ministers then to be so thoroughly provided with them , modesty doth now to insert them here ; Therefore the Christian Reader is desired to peruse Calvins Institutions , Ursins Catechism , and Dr. Featley's Book upon this subject , where he shall be thorowly furnished . Besides that opinion of Ovid , Etsi non prosint singula , multa juvant , What ever it may carry of credit in other causses , ought to have but little in this , where we trust not in multitude nor measure by number ; but substance and weight of Arguments are the foundation of our faith , the other are for pomp and victory , these onely for satifaction and verity . Whosoever thou art that desirest to be grounded in the Truth , examine diligently and understand these three arguments following , which are but the same reviewed that were used in the disputation , and thou shalt be able , being confirmed thy self thorough the grace of God , to strengthen thy brethren , whose faith is every where assaulted in these miserable dates , by the watchfulness and cunning insinuation of the adversary : nor are these three commended unto thee , as if among David's Worthies they were the first three , the composer of them arrogates no such thing to them , thou shalt find many both better appointed , and more strongly armed , and which go forth in strength of those that fight the battels of the Lord among the Worthies of Israel , these were never intended but as a forlorn-hope , yet till the adversary shall have worsted them , thou shalt not need to desire fresh supplies . Re-Review . This first part or Praeambulary approach to the battel gives big words , but no blowes , it only vapours , and vaunts , carries the colours , and ●lourishes them , advancing with a company of broad bragges of what Innumerable forces your cause hath at command from Scriptures , and from Reason , and from Churches practise , and authority , and from Authors of Renown Calvin , Vrsin , Dr. Featley , whereby , fearing least they should forgo it upon sight of your own apparent slenderness , and that unthorough provision your Disputation presented in proof thereof , to flatter your followers . First , into a false faith of more full and thorough furniture , comming in from all quarters toward its defence , and so to a secure continuance in your crazy cause and to keep close still to the Clergy and their colours , in order thereunto also , highly inhauncing the price of three following forlorn-hope highway Hacksters and Hachny Arguments as not the last , nor least , though not the first three among the worthies that are engaged in it . Whereas that poor , blind , Implicit-opinion'd people , and Clergy-claw'd christen'd creatures may no longer , to their utter erring from the way of Christs truth , and their own peace , trust in the lying words of their Prophets , that profit themselves more then them by their traditionary doctrine , I do here in the name of the great King Jesus , who gave commission Mat. 28.18 to make persons disciples , and to teach them first , and then to baptize them , proclaim it aloud to the whole earth , that all these are either clearly against you , or ( all things considered ) nothing for you . First , the whole region of Scripture in every coast and quarter thereof is up in armes against you , neither is there any one part or place throughout it , wherein you ever find that way of infant baptism ( much lesse your way of infant-rantism ) so much as probably to have been practised : or the war you wage for it promoted by so much as one piece of a precept , that such a thing should be done , or inch of instance that ere it was done at all : yea in all places where ever baptism was dispensed you find it done onely and downrightly in that despised way , wherein we do at this day i. e. of dipping persons immediately after , but never before converted and discipled ; all they of Ierusalem , and Iudaea . and Galilee that were baptized by Iohn in Iordan , and by Christs disciples in his presence , and by his appointment , confessed their sins 3. Mat. were first taught and instructed , or made disciples Mat. 28.18 . Iohn 3.22 . Iohn 4.1.2.3 . all they who were baptized by Peter and others after his sermon at Ierusalem , to the number of 3000. did first gladly receive the word Act. 2.41 . all they that were baptized by Phillip at Samaria , and betwen Ierusalem and Gaza were men and women that believed the things spoken by Phillip concerning the kingdom of God , and the name of Iesus Acts 8.12.36.37 . all they that were commanded to be baptized by Peter in the name of the Lord at Cesarea were such as were converted at the hearing of the word Act. 10.44.48 . all that were baptized at Corinth by Paul , Silas , Timotheus , were such as believed Act. 18.8 . all they that were baptized by Apollos , or any other at Ephesus before Paul came thither , which were about 12. were every one of them adult believers , Act. 19.1.2 . &c. A●l that ever we find Ananias baptized at Damascus , though there were other disciples there besides himself , with whom Paul walkt a while , was Paul that was baptized calling on the name of the Lord. All they of the Church of Rome ( to every one of whom Paul writes his Epistle Rom 1.6 . ) that were baptized into Jesus Christ , and buried with him by baptism into his death , were such as had formerly lived in sin , and actually obeyed it in the lusts thereof , and yielded themselves up as servants to it , and had now visibly obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered unto them Rom. 6.3.4.12.16.17.19.21 . which things I take him to be little better then an infant in understanding , that judges they were performed by any infants . All they at Galatia , who were baptized into Christ , were such as had received and imbraced the Gospel , and had put on the Lord Iesus Christ , and such who through ignorance of God had done service to such as by nature were no gods , but now had attained to know God , by the preaching of the Gospel to them , which things that are spoken to all the Churches of Galatia , cannot be said of any infants Gal. 1.9.3.27.4.8.9.13 . verses , among all which this is most notable in that he saith , As many of you as have bin baptized into Christ have put one Christ , we see all along throughout the whole body of the new testament , It was not the rule of Christ , nor the practise of the primitive times to baptize persons , till they had had first preached the Gospel to them , and according to the commission converted them , or made them disciples , indeed so soon as ever they were thus discipled or made disciples ( that no infants can be so in infancy is shewed above , as simply as Mr. Bazter seems to suppose believers infants are so from the very womb ) I agree with Mr. Baxter , that their baptism was not to be delayed , and forasmuch as he abundantly proves the period of time , wherein persons were ever baptized in the primitive times by the will of Christ to be immediately after they were converted and made disciples , he consequen●ly agrees as much with me as I desire him , insomuch that in confirmation of this that I say , I mean to declare this truth viz. that persons are not to be baptized till they are first made disciples , in the same words wherein he himself declares it to us by the space of well nigh a whole page together , in order to the making of his matter to serve our turn against himself , and all you that baptize infants , but especially against his fellow souldier Mr. Marshal , and his critical observations , out of which he tells us that infants are not disciples before , but are made disciples by baptizing , I shall frame this argument viz. If Christs Rule be that persons should be baptized when they are first made disciples without delay , or immediately after they are converted and discipled , then persons are not to be baptized before they are converted and discipled . But Christs Rule is that persons should be baptized when they are first made disciples , or immediately after they are converted and discipled . Ergo , they are not to be baptized before they are converted or discipled . The Major is most clear , and consequent , for if it be Christs will that baptizing should immediately follow our discipling persons , or converting them to the faith , then consequently t is his will that baptizing should not go before our discipling , and converting them : if baptism must be immediately subsequent to teaching , or making disciples by Christs commission , then teaching persons , or making them disciples must be Antecedent to baptism , unlesse both these be the mind of Christ in his commission whom and when to baptize , viz. that they should not baptize persons till they are taught and discipled , and yet ( to go round again ) that they should not teach them till they have baptized them i. e. in Mr. Marshals sense initiated them first to be disciples by baptism , and thereby admitted them to be taught , as for the Minor , which is this viz. That it is Christs rule that persons shall be baptized without delay , when they are first made disciples , or immediately after they are converted , as I have fully proved it already above , both from the commission for baptizing , and from Scripture example explaining that commission , and from the end and use of baptism , so I shall further prove it in Mr. Baxters own words , then which I think there need no other ( if they be well weighed ) to convince a wise man that by Scripture rule no infants in infancy are to be baptized . To which purpose he writteth thus p. 126.127 . at large viz. First , in the commission Mat. 28.19.20 . Christ adjoineth baptizing immediately to discipling , go disciple all nations baptizing them . Secondly if any person be so impudent as to say , It is not the meaning of Christ that baptizing should immediately without delay follow discipling , they are confuted by the constant example of Scripture ; for there is no mention that I can find of any one person that was baptized long after their discipling or that ever the Apostles of Christ did delay the baptizing of disciples , John 4.1.2 . Iesus made and baptized more disciples then John. See how making and baptizing disciples are conjoined , Act. 2.38.41 . the 3000 were presently baptized the same day that they were made disciples without staying till the morrow , though one would think the number of 3000 might have excused the delay , if they had taken longer time to do it in ; And some would think that their conversion being so sudden the Apostles would have waited for a trial of their sincerity , but this is not the wisdome of God , though it seem to aim at the purity of the Church : Scripture tells us of another way Acts 8.1.2 . the people of Samiaria when they believed were baptized without delay . And v. 13.14 . Simon Magus was presently baptized , though yet not brought out of the gall of bitternesse or bond of iniquity , and had no part or fellowship in that business : yea the Samaritans were generally baptized by Philip , before they had received the holy Ghost : for he was yet fallen upon none of them , onely they were baptized in the name of the Lord Iesus verse 16. So Acts 8.36.37.38 . the Eunuch was baptized in his journey as they went , without delaying one day or hour after he professed himself to be a disciple . So was Paul baptized as soon as he rose from his blindnesse upon the words of Ananias , Acts 9.18 . So was Cornelius with his friends baptized immediately without delay , the same day Lydia and her houshold were baptized without delay Acts 16.15 . and the Iaylor the same hour of the night that he was discipled Acts 16.38 . So the Corinthians Acts 18.8 . and Ananias language to Paul repeated Acts 22.16 . is plain , and now why tarriest thou ? arise and be baptized &c. and of the houshold of Stephanus that Paul baptized , it is implied too ; and it is most observable which is said in Iohn 3.26 . of Iesus himself that he baptized ( by his disciples ) and all men came unto him ; where it is undeniable that Iesus baptized without delay , even as fast as they came to him and professed themselves disciples , and can we have a better example then the Lord Iesus himself ? — And thus you see ( saith he ) that according to all the examples of baptism in the Scripture ( not to speak of Johns baptism ) there was no delaying , no not a day usually but they were all baptized as soon as they were discipled . Thus far are the very words of Mr. Baxter , brought by him in proof of infant baptisme , and here brought again by me in proof of the clear contrary viz. that according to all the examples of baptism in the Scripture , not one infant was ever baptized in the primitive times , but that all that ever were then baptized , did first believe and were converted , were first made disciples by the preaching of the Gospel to them , and did first come and professe themselves disciples , and thereupon were immediately admitted : which things I dare say , t will be out of doubt with all rational considerate impartial Christians , that they were never performed by any infants , and if not , then whether all these examples do not clearly shew rather that no infants were then baptized , then that any were or now ought to be , a child of 7. years old at least may easily decide it : notwithstanding so childish is Mr. Baxter , as to set down this at large , that he may thence make himself a clearer way ( as by the constant example and practise of the primitive time ) to prove your present practise of baptizing of infants : which premises and conclusion viz. that men and women of old were baptized without delay , so soon as ever they were converted to the faith , and were discipled and professed themselves disciples , therefore we must baptize the children of Christians in infancy , or else our practise is utterly inconsistent with the rule of Christ , and contrary to the practise of the primitive times , and consequently a sinful practise , are as sutable , as Humano capiti cervicem pictor equinam Iungere Si velit , or as when — Mulier formosa superne desinat in turpem piscem . And howbeit Mr. Baxter in defence hereof tells us p. 128. they who baptize the children of Christians at age ( as the Anabaptists do ) cannot possibly do it when they are first discipled , I am so amazed at that expression , that I can hardly believe he minded what he said when he pend it , nor do I think the man had his wits well about him when he wrote all the rest that follows in proof therof through out that whole chapter of his , where the further he proceeds , the more he abounds and sinks ore head and ears in absurdities , contradicting himself and his own principles , and overthrowing the very thing he there prosecutes the proof of , for First , so farre is it from being impossible to baptize believers children immediately after they are discipled , if we forbear them till they come to years , that indeed it is impossible that they should be discipled at all till then , in such a way as all those were discipled in , whom he hath produced as examples in this case , for whatever conversion there seems to him to be of all , or at least the most of the children of believers so timely , that neither themselves nor others be can discipled when by the preaching of the Gospel they are brought over both to believe , and to be willing to obey the Lord Jesus , and do freely , ser●ously and ( as may seem to us ) sincerely professe their faith in him , and their readiness to obey him , and their repentance from those dead works , and waies of the flesh they have formerly lived in ( unless he suppose it possible that these should live in sin ) and their desires to be baptized in the name of Christ for remission of their sins : then ( I say ) they appear first to be discipled in foro hominum , * & Ecclesiae ( for whatever they were before in foro Dei is nothing to us ) and then and not before to be baptized . As for us therefore we have a steady rule to go by in the baptizing of persons , according to which we still baptize them as of old they did , when first discipled , yea though they are persons whose parents were Church-members , or in other meer relative only , or reall discipleship , yet they are first made Disciples when they first appear to be converted , witness the three thousand Iewes , whom Mr. Baxter himself doth instance in ; who though they , and their parents were all relatively holy by birth , and Church-members of the visible Church of old , and as Mr. Baxter is pleased to say most simply p. 20. both disciples and Servants of God by very nature , yet in the Gospel sense they were first made disciples , or discipled so as thereby to be in right to baptism , when they were by Peter converted only , and not before : so that if the children of Christians had now either such a Relative discipleship ( as he calls it , and as he saies the Iews children had once by birth ) and such a real discipleship , or invisible conversion to God in very infancy , as he deeply dotes all such to have so soon as ever they they are born , neither of which yet they have indeed , yet nevertheless that they may be , and also must be first discipled when they are at years in that sense wherein discipling was in the Commission enjoined in order to baptism , it is evident by Mr. Baxters own alledged instance of the Iews Acts 2. who though they were ( according to Mr. Baxter himself as nigh , and in truth more nigh to God by birth , than the fleshly seed of believing Gentiles are , yet were not for all that their old Church-membership and discipleship ( for indeed they were ( not in infancy ) but when grown up discipled unto Moses ) admitted to baptism thereupon , till they were first discipled unto Christ , and had both heard , and gladly received the word of the Gospel : neither were ever any ( as appears by all the Examples forecited ) of what parents soever descended , though of Abraham himself admitted to baptism in the primitive times , till discipled , i. e. till visibly appearing , and verbally at least professing to repent , believe and imbrace the Gospel : nor is it possible for men , to whom Christ gives order to make disciples to him , to do it any other way than by instructing persons till such time as they learn , and receive the things that are taught them . Moreover to let pass that round he runs p , 127. where after he had shewed so abundantly , that to be Christs disciples gave persons admission immediately to baptism ( to go round again ) he expresses himself thus lin . 32. that baptism admitteth them to be his disciples ; whereas Mr. Baxter asserts , that we cannot possibly baptize children of Christians at age , immediatly after they are first discipled , because we cannot possibly know when such children are first discipled , except it be in their first infancy , as I have shewed him already what a steady rule , & direct period of time we keep to in baptizing , as they did in the primitive times , viz. as soon as they are first discipled , i. e. when first they appear to us truly to be converted , and profess seriously and sincerely ( as far as we can judge ) to repent from their sins , and believe in Christ , and desire , and profer to be baptized in his name for the remission of sins , so I must return his own proposition upon him ' that they who baptize the children of Christians in infancy ( as the Anti-baptists do ) cannot possibly do it when they are first discipled , and that because they cannot possibly know when such persons are first made disciples , and except they account them to be first discipled as we do , viz. when professing verbally , and when first appearing visibly and ( for ought we can discern ) truly to believe and repent from their sins , and desire baptism , which things no infants ever do . Babist . But Mr. Baxter supposes infants of Christian parents to have a Relative infant-discipleship from the womb , and so hath a sure way of baptizing them , when they are first discipled if he baptize them in their first infancy . Baptist. That Relative infant-discipleship ( if by that he mean the same birth-priviledge ( as I am sure he doth ) which the Jewes infants once had ) is a real piece of non-sense , and such a phrase as the spirit never expressed the Jewes birth priviledge by , as not by any other so much as tantamount thereunto in sense or signification in either the old Testament or new : neither can any such denomination as that of disciple ( which is of disco ) properly be given to any person , upon a meer account of such a relative holiness , as the Jewes infants once had , without respect to their being actually under some tuition or other , any more than it might be given to the Temple it self , which had then also the same relative holiness . Secondly , if it could , I have sufficiently shewed that birth priviledge and holiness , which the Jew had by nature to be abolished in Christ , and not derived to the fleshly seed of believing Gentiles . Thirdly , if it were now both in force , and of force to denominate a person to be relatively a disciple of Christ by birth , what 's that to the purpose of Mat. 28.19 . and the tenor of all those presidents Mr. Baxter brings out of the New Testament , whereby to direct us in baptizing , in all which it is both enjoined , and exemplified , that in order to baptism persons should be first made disciples , or discipled really by us , i. e. taught and brought to the faith , and obedience to the Gospel , and not baptized upon account of a meer Relative birth-discipleship , for the 3000 Jewes ( but that is nonsense to call their birth-holiness by such a name as that of Infant discipleship ) had as much of that Infant discipleship , as Mr. Baxter saies falsly Christians children now have , yet till better discipled then , so i. e. till visibly imbracing the Gospel , could not be baptized , though pleading we have Abraham to our Father , besides to be born disciples , if there were any such thing at all ( as Mr. Baxter dreames there is ) is one thing , and to be made disciples by the teachings of either God or men availing to conversion , which is that only we are according to all that precept , and president Mr. Baxter himself produces above to baptize persons upon immediately , is another ; to be disciples born , and to be made disciples by men , are as different as those that are born Eunuchs , and those that are made Eunuchs of men : now if they were ( as there is no such thing in Rerum natur â as disciples of Christ by nature , nor ever was , but by a birth from above ) such a way of becomming Christs disciples relatively from the womb , yet every one of those that were baptized in the primitive times , whom Mr. Baxter brings in for our example , were discipled by mens teaching , according as in the commission Matth. 28. they were enjoyned to be before they were baptized : yea even those three thousand Iews themselves , who ( secundum sacerdotem ) had the relative infant discipleship could not be baptized meerly thereupon , till they had attained to a better discipleship by Peters Ministry . Babist . You see Mr. Baxter does take discipleship in Mr. Tombe's own sense and yours viz. as it fignifieth one that doth seriously and understandingly &c. professe Christianity , laying by at present the consideration of meer Relative infant discipleship , for I speak but his own words p. 128. and yet makes it good , that your rule of baptizing children of Christians at years , is utterly inconsistent with the rule of Christ , and that constant example of Scripture , wherein baptizing did immediately follow making disciples , forasmuch as the true beginning of the discipleship , or conversion , or sincere profession of faith in men , who are born , and brought up of Christian parents , cannot possibly be discerned , it is wrought on by such insensible degrees , and consequently they cannot be baptized , when first made disciples , unless they be baptized in their first infancy . Baptist. Unless they be baptized in their infancy ? why are you so sure of hitting upon the day , and hour of their first discipleship , or conversion to the faith , if you baptize them in the first of their infancy ? what are all the children of Christians ( I hope he doth not take Christians in so large a sense as Mr. Blake does , for Papists and formall Protestants , as well as zealous professors , and yet by some passages in his book me thinks he makes the pale of the visible church as wide to the full as the other ) are all these I trow disciples with him , not only relatively , but really also i. e. converted truly from their mothers womb ? or if he mean not this of nominall Christians , or the seed of Christians at large ( which with Mr. Blake at least are born Christians ) but of the children of true converts , sincere believers , such as are Christians indeed , what is it evident that all , or at least the most ( as Mr. Baxter saies ) of the children of real disciples are as real disciples as their parents so soon as they are born ? are the seed of true believers true converts mostly by birth ? how then do so many of them as well of the seed of meer nominal Christians , prove wretches , and ungracious a great while , till God workes on them , and many of them , to the grief of their parents , even to their dying day ? and yet thus it should seem they are in Mr. Baxters opinion , so that if they be baptized in their first infancy , under ●he notion of such , they are in all likelyhood baptized when they are first made disciples even immediately upon the point , and period of their conversion : and besides if they may so safely be supposed all , or most of them to be truly converted , and upon that account baptized in their first ●efancy , as he saies , then how doth this square a squint , with what he saies also ( to go round again ) in the same chapter p. 128 ? viz. That men are usually who are born and brought up of Christian parents , wrought to this , meaning to conversion and true discipleship by such insensible degrees , that the true beginning cannot be discerned . 1. by others . 2. no not themselves . And p. 139. Now if it be the sincerity that is looked after , who knoweth what day or year the child began to be sincere in his profession ? for my own part I aver from my heart that I neither know the day nor year when I begun to be sincere , nor the time when I first began to be a Christian : how then should others know it ? and when Mr. Tombes would have baptized me I cannot tell , and as large experience as I have had in my Ministry of the State of Souls , and the way of conversion , I dare say I have met not with one of very many that would say they knew the time of their Conversion , and of those that would say so by reason that they then felt some more remarkable change , yet they discovered such stirrings and workings before , that many I had cause to think were themselves mistaken ; and that I may not tell men only of mine own experience and those of my acquaintance , I was once at a meeting of very many Christians , most eminent for zeal and holinesse of most in the land , of whom diverse were Ministers , and some at this day as famous and as much followed as any I know in England , and it was there desired , that every one should give in the manner of their conversion , that it might be observed what is Gods ordinary way : and there was but one that I remember of them all , that could conjecture at the time of their conversion , but all gave in that it was by degrees , and in long time , now when would Mr. Tombs have baptized any of these ? All this Mr. Baxter saies in proof on t that the time of the first conversion of children of christian parents , or when they are first discipled cannot be known for the most part , by either themselves or others , whereupon he concludes that if we baptize them at age , though never so punctually at the time of their profession of faith , repentance , and desire of baptism , we cannot possibly baptize them when first discipled , or immediately after conversion , as we ought to do by the example of the primitive times ( wherein yet they did thus , and no otherwise , witnesse all the instances of his own alledging ) but those that baptize them without delay so soon as ever they are born , they cannot do otherwise then jump just with the very time wherein they are first discipled ( according to the primitive pattern he himself produces , wherein of all that were baptized , whether Iews or Gentiles , immediately upon their being discipled , we read not of one infant ) And good reason why they must needs hit right upon their first being discipled or converted , that baptize them in the first infancy , for though the time of the first conversion or discipling of the children of Christian parents be not scarce possible to be conjectured at either by themselves or others , yet ( to go round again ) it may so safely and surely be supposed and conjectured to be in the first of their infancy , that they may warrantably be baptized then ( as then newly made disciples ) without any danger of aberration from either Christs commission or the primitive custom of baptizing persons when first discipled , and professing themselves disciples : O the wisdom ! he that being in the fire would not come out to hear how bravely Mr. Baxter brings about , and about again his businesse in that 8 chapter of the second part of his book , t is pitty but he should be burnt . And lastly whereas Mr. Baxter queries so oft when Mr. Tombs would have such baptized , the set time of whose conversion ? is not distinctly known leaving Mr. Tombs to tell him his mind as he sees good himself , I tell him ( if he ask me the same question ) that in my mind such whose conversion is not known when it is ( as by his own confession the conversion of Christians children some times is not , witnesse that one in which he instances , and ( as few as he knowes of that sort ) yet how many hundreds of the children of Religious parents ( among whom I my self make one ) do know when they were first truly converted ? such I say should be baptized as neer as may be , upon the time of their conversion and becoming disciples , and if it have been then fo●eslowd , it must be after as soon as it can , but in no wise so many years before it , as the priests unviversally do it : and such of whom it is not known nec per se , nec per alios , when they first were discipled , and converted ) but oh how do I fear , that as he that never doubted never believed , so many of those implicit converts Mr. Baxter talks on , that never knew when they were discipled and converted , were never yet truly discipled hor converted at all to the truth as it is in Iesus , but as they had it more by tradition from their fathers , then unfained search of Scriptures ) such I say of whom t is not known when they first were converted and discipled , shall by my consent be baptized , when ever it is first known that they are converted and discipled unto Christ , by their own profession of their conversion and discipleship , and desire of baptism , and this not by my consent alone , but by the joint consent of all these very Scriptures , which Mr. Baxter himself hath co●ed for our example and warrant , all which if ( as far as Christs own precept and practise , and the primitive Churches example can do it ) they do not warrant the baptism of all , and onely such persons as were first taught , or made disciples by preaching , or instructed till they both learnt , believed and imbraced the Gospel , and professed themselves disciples and offered themselves to baptism , and consequently of no infants , then for my part I le lay aside all sense and reason , as no more to be heeded as a help to understand the Scriptures , and turn a very Tom-fool , and he that can Altobelogick these Scripture institutions and instances into plain Scripture proofs of infant Church membership and baptism , Erit mihi magus Apollo : for there 's no mention of infants either expressely or implicitly in any one of them : Oh ( therefore to Eccho back to Mr. Baxter a little in much what his own words to us concerning those Scriptures p. 127 ) that those who are so inclinable to seperation from the primitive practise , would consider the unfitnesse of infants to be admitted by baptism to be Church members under the Gospel ! Oh that they that in church whole parishes , as if they , because the Pope will have it so , were all Churches , and will have no trial at all , and discoveries of the work of persons conversion , before they admit them , but take them all at hap hazard as they fall from the belly within the bounds of that parish where they are plac't , and popified , would but lay to heart all these Scripture examples , and make more conscience of observing their rule , and not presume to be wiser and holier then God , when it was mans first overthrow to desire to be but as God , though he did not attempt to go beyond him , as the priests do in adding other Subjects to his ordinances , then himself appointed : which changing of his law will be mans last overthrow Isa. 24. doubtlesse those that Christ baptized by his disciples , were Church-members ; but those were not infants , but such as were first made disciples by preaching onely Iohn 4. and be that will go beyond Iesus Christ in strictnesse shall go without me , I do not think he will be offended with me for doing as he did i. e. for baptizing none but such as believe and professe themselves disciples , and as repent of their sins , and desire to be baptized in the name of Christ for the remission of them : and so I have done with Mr. Baxter till we meet again , onely since Mr. Marshal is pleased ponere obicem to object , and bolt in here , that we cannot say none in these places were baptized , but such as did thus , i. e. believe and professe themselves disciples p. 217. to Mr. Tombs because the word onely is not here , I may well call it obicem , or objectionem obularem , a hint not worth a half penny ; and if he appeal to his own conscience , it will tell him no lesse ; neverthelesse what ere he thinks , I say again , all that were baptized in the forenamed places , were such as are there specified to be profest converts and believers , and if there were any more let him assign and shew us whom , and wee l believe him : as for the housholds himself is in the sands , whether there were any infants in them or no , and I have shewd above , that they that were baptized in them , are exprest all by some clause or other exclusive of infants , and conclusive onely of adult disciples : besides Mr. Cotton confesses that the infants were not baptized with their parents , and that the infants that were brought to Christ were not baptized at all ( for ought he knows ) nor their parents neither , and here are all the Scriptures that declare how baptism was done then , and to whom , most of which are cited by Mr. Baxter himself , from which you cannot possibly scrape so much as any old odd end of an example for such a businesse as your baptism . As for us , besides that plain precept we have in Mat. 28. even every whit of this is plain ●resident for our baptism , and comes into our assistance against all your cavils ( O ye Priests ) for thus I argue viz. The baptism of men and women professing faith in the Lord Iesus , confessing sins , calling on the name of the Lord &c. is a baptism , yea all the baptism that the Scripture speaks of , either in way of command or example . But the baptism which we dispence , is a baptism of men and women professing faith in our Lord Iesus , confessing sins , calling on the name of the Lord , gladly receiving the word &c. Ergo that baptism which we dispense is a baptism , yea all the baptism the Scripture speaks of in way of either command or example . Therefore S●rs , how hath Satan bewitched you that you cannot believe and obey the truth ? what will you onely think things , and thrust your thoughts of them as oracles upon all others ? will you imagine and suppose , and dream , and dote , and fancy , and fain a baptism , that the Scriptures and first Churches never knew , and then father your figments upon the Scriptures , and fasten them as the fashion which , the whole world must be forct to follow and conform to ? Moreover I do not at present remember any one part of Scripture , which your selves summon into your help in this case of infant baptism , that doth not yield ammunition , and much matter against you more then for you , unlesse it be one or two used by your selves , which one may as well with Skoggin untile the house to look for an hare as urge either pro or con about infants baptism , so farre shall he be from finding in them any proof for that , or the true baptism either : as namely 2 Cor. 13.5 . 1 Thess. 4.13 . There are but two places that I know of , besides those I have already turned upon you above , that are held out by any of you out of the armory of Scripture in defence of infant baptism , and those are Col. 2. 12. 1 Cor. 10.1.2 . both which not onely knock sprinkling oth'head , but may also very easily be sheathed in the bowels of baby-baptism : As for the first it speaks ( as well nigh all scripture doth , not much medling with infants ) not onely to , bu● of adult disciples only , of whom as well as to whom ( and not of infants ) in way of satisfaction to them , and answer to those that would have brought in the old circumcision made with hands among them , Paul saies ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands , which circumcision without hands there spoken of , is not baptism neither ( as some dream , who thence also draw in circumcision and baptism to be of so neer kin that as they have both one name , so they must both have one subject also ) for baptism is no more done withoutehands then the other , but the sanctification or inward circumcision of the heart , cutting off the foreskin i. e. the filth of the heart , which things infants do not , in token of which he tells them they are ( not sprinkled ) but buried i. e. overwhelmed in water with Christ in the outward baptism , wherin also they are risen with him through faith &c. All which things he that imagins they more include then exclude the sucking infants of such , to whom he speaks , is no man in discretion with me . As for the other place its most evident the Apostle speaks not of baptism litterally but Metaphoically onely there , they were baptized unto Moses i. e. by the visible tokens of Gods presence amongst them viz. the cloud and Sea assisting and siding with them , and overthrowing their adversaries , they were confirmed in the belief of God , and his servant Moses , as we by baptism are in the faith of Gods goodnesse to us , and of his Son Jesus Christ : in further confirmation of which meer figurative sence of the word [ baptized ] you may do well to consider that though they were said to be baptized in the cloud , and in the sea , which phrases however ▪ sound forth such a total immersion as is not in two or three drops of water fingered on the face , yet they were not so much as wetted with either the cloud or the sea , for its said Exod. 14.21.22 . the sea was made dry land under them , and they went through it dry shod , or on dry ground , which they could not be well said to do had it so much as rained upon them , such a figurative sence of the word [ baptize ] there Mr. Baxter himself denies not p. 90. yet Dr. Channel urged that place in a publique dispute at Petworth Ian. 1651. as one of his arguments for infant baptism , besides Secondly , if you will needs have it properly taken that they were baptized really , and not quasi baptized , as Mr. Baxter yields they were , and if you will needs make that baptism such an emblem of ours , that ours must have an adequate subject to that , which say you , was infants as well as parents , then t will put you to your trumps to excuse your selves handsomly in your now denying to infants the same spiritual meat and drink in the supper , which they then eat and drank of in a figure also viz. the Manna and the Rock , which both were no other ( Antitypically ) then the bread and wine are mistically in the supper i. e. the Lord Jesus Christ. For all your vain boasting therefore of what innumerable arguments you have from Scriptures , I say the Scriptures are sure enough on our side , nevertheless taking the word in a sutable sense you do well to call your Scripture armes or arguments innumerable , for indeed they are not to be numbred ( for even unit as , much more nonit as non est numerus ) being no more than just none at all . Secondly , whereas you boast of the innumerable Arguments which may be brought for your infant rantism from reason , the full force of reason is utterly against you , and so wholly assistant to our cause , that the unreasonablest man amongst you will once see it , when sound reason comes to reign , and sway the scepter indeed . Yea not to stand reasoning on it now how reasonless a thing it is to ask a company of men and women , as the priests were wont to do at the font , thus viz. do you believe in God the Father , and Christ &c. and will you be baptized in this faith ? and when they answered yes , that is all our desire , then instead of them who profess their faith and desires to be baptized , to take a small sucking babe out of their armes , and dat him with a drop or two on the face , and send away all the other unbaptized . Babist . The sureties or parents in so saying do but represent the child , that could not speak for it self , and expresse his good resolutions to forsake the divel &c. and his desires to be baptized . Baptist How reasonless is it to put questions to infants through their parents ears , and then very gravely suppose them answering again through their parents mouthes ? yea as reasonless as to suppose that all people should see through none but the blind priests eyes ; nor yet to stand reasoning how reasonless a thing it is to signifie things to sucklings while they understand them not , and that too by such a vanishing visible sign , that when they can understand , they neither see , nor never shall , and such like Trumpioall transactions , to which there are as few grains of reason concurring , as there are inches in an Apes tail , even your selves , however it happens that you so contradict your selves ( yet that is no news with you ) as to sound it out here how Reason fights on your sides for infant baptism , are even in this very cause found falling out with , and fighting down right against reason hand smooth but some four or five pages below this , why else is there such a reasonles reply made to seven or eight several objections , which by your own confession p. 16. reason makes against infant baptism , but I le spare you till I come thither . 3ly That the practise and authority of the Church of God you so much boast of from the beginning and the Fathers thereof , which you complain and grumble much p. 1.11.12 . that t was set aside , and might not be admitted into your assistance at the Disputation , is so utterly against your infant baptism , that even this alone were it of any esteem with you , had bin enough to have silenced all your disputes for it , and laid the itch , and quencht the heat of your hearts after that meer novelty , is most manifest , if by the Church of God , and the Fathers therof you mean what I do , viz. the Church of God in the primitive , which were the best and purest times of the Gospel , whose practise in this particular is set out in the word , but specially in the Acts of the Apostles , the fathers of which Church and of the Church in after ages too were the Apostles themselves , viz. Father Peter , Father Paul , Father Barnabas , Father Iames , Father Iohn , and the rest whose authority from Christ was great indeed , and adequate with the Scriptures then written , and the foundation for all the Churches to build on , and such was not the authority of the Churches then , much less since which are to be subjected to their word in Scripture , this Church , and these fathers never knew such a baptism as yours , nor is there the least tittle of talk concerning any such matter to be found among them . Or if by the Church and Fathers of it , whose authority and practise you build on , you mean those of the ages next to the Apostles . Then first I marvel , why you should put your selves upon the triall by succeeding ages , and decline the first and purest age of the Gospel of all , specially since there 's as clear history , and more infallible testimony given in the word , of what was done by the Church , and the first fathers the Apostles , then ever was in any age inferiour to it whatsoever , and more specially yet since its being in after ages is no palpable argument of its being in the first age , for the mystery of iniquity was at work from the very Apostles , t is now , Ergo it was then is not so good a wherefore to our why as we look for , besides t is ingenuously confest by your own writers viz. Mr. Blake in answer to Mr. Blackwood p. 58. that faith can hang on the humane testimony of the succeeding fathers , in whose daies infant baptism was , no further then de facto viz. that it was onely , and not de jure that it ought to be , and Mr. Marshal p. 5. of his sermon , that the practise of the thing in their dayes proves not the truth of it at all . Secondly , neither doth the second Century help you so much as to a proof de facto . For First , as much as you would seem to be verst among the fathers ( in which many Priests are better read then in the Scriptures , and some to seem to be better read there then they are , will quote the fathers when they have not read them , but by snaches , and pickt a few fine phrases out of them , to make their sermons the more sententious , yea and sometimes for those very sentences , for which they might more truly quote the Apostles , that primitively pend them , witnesse one of your tribe whom I heard with my own ears say of Heb. 2.16 . he took not on him the nature of Angels , thus viz. for as Saint Barnard saith , when as he might as well have said , as the spirit , or as the Scripture saith , He took not on him &c. if yet he knew that t was in the Scripture ) as much I say as you are versed in the fathers , you are desired by Mr. Blackwood ( a man better read in those fathers then either you or I ) yea you and Mr. Marshall also , who quotes Iustin Martyr , are desired by him in his storming of Antichrist p. 25.26.27 . to prove if you can out of any place of Iustins genuine works , who is the antientest father extant next the Apostles , whose works are accounted on , that there is so much as the name of infant baptism , much more the thing ; yea he tells you ye may as soon find a Dolphin in the woods , as any such thing : save onely that t is once mentioned in a spurious book falsely called his , out of which book Mr. Marshalls quotation is , neither doth Mr. Blake gainsay this , nor yet Mr. Marshall in their replies , nay they rather seem to grant that it s to be doubted it was so , which makes me as well as Mr. Blackwood , not a little wonder that Mr. Marshall should quote it with so much confidence , I mean so as to assert it thereupon as a matter manifest , that the Church ( counting from the time of Iustin Martyr viz. 150 ) hath bin possest of the priviledg of infant baptism for the space of 1500 years and upwards , for had he not doubted but that the words , he cites were without question the words of Iustin himself , he had not had sin , but now he hath no cloak , sith he demonstrates to all men Dubitatum per magis dubium , and tells the world to make them believe that Iustin disputes the condition of children that dye baptized and unbaptized , when yet it s not believed , but much doubted by himself , whether Iustin did any such thing yea or no : as to the words Mr. Marshal p. 4. of his sermon cites out of Irenaeus who lived toward the end of the second Century , which Englisht are thus viz. Christ came by himself to save all , all I say , who are born again unto God , infants and little ones &c. it s not likely that in this sentence that father by the word [ born again ] meant baptism ( as Mr. Blake and Mr. Marshal contend ) for by that sence they father such absurdity upon that their father , as children that pretend to honour their father , may be ashamed of , whilst they make him say , Christ came to save all infants that are baptized , when as neither all infants , that are baptized are actually saved , quâ baptized , nor are any unbaptized infants damned , quâ not baptized , but both alike saved as both alike they either dye before they have bard themselves by actual sin , and derserved exemption , or living to years believe and obey Christ , and both alike damned as living to years they both alike obey not his Gospel , but however let Mr. Blake and Mr. Marshal squeeze what they can from the quotation , it must yet remain as doubtful whether the speech of Irenaeus ( if it were his own ) were at all of infants baptism , as it doth whether the speech fathered on Iustin ( though it be of infants baptism ) were at all his own : and so what dubious evidence the second century affords , so much as de facto , that infant baptism was then in being , all men may see , whilst you can say no more then perhaps it was so , and a fool may say as much as perhaps it was not , which is a proportionable answer to that argument , for t is commonly said in the Schooles ( saies Mr. Marshal ) that forte ita , solvitur per forte non . Secondly , but what if your testimony de facto concerning the practise of infant baptism in the second century were as clear , as t is cloudy , yet what green headed antiquity is this in comparison of that we plead from viz. the Apostles themselves ? when you are stormed out of all your strong holds then you send us still to ages above us , and cry out your practise is of 1500 years standing , but sith you cannot say as we can of ours , t is above 1600 years old ( nor is yours now likely to live to it ) as good you had said but 15 for our way onely being found in the first century , and yours not at all before the second , we are a people so much elder then you upstarts , that your antiquity is but novelty with us , whoregardlesse of what by mans wisdome was foisted in in after ages , can aver with as much confidence as you can that now it is that from the beginning it was not so , nor yet in end shall be : I much marvel why Mr. Marshall contents himself to preach positively no otherwise then thus , p. 3. viz. this priviledge of baptizing infants the Christian Church hath bin in possession of for the space of 1500 years and upwards : he might as easily have said 1600 , had his ground been as good for that as for the other , and yet his ground for the other is so infirm , and sinking under him , that I believe he must fall down as low as the third century , before he find sure footing for his proof of no more then the bare practise of infant baptism . As for the Ius of it its nere the nearer , if he could prove the matter of fact to be in the second , though that still is the main question betwen us , sith t is confest by Mr. Marshall that he uses not the Testimony and judgements of the Antients to witnesse to the truth of it , but onely to prove a then practise of infant baptism , and the question de jure whether infants ought to be baptized , no one of the fathers , nor yet the joint consent of many ( saith Mr. Blake p. 58. of his to Mr. Blackwood ) is a competent Iudge , therefore if any of you , who stand so much upon that young antiquity of it , and plead the authority of the Church and fathers shall argue thus , t is 1500 years old , therefore it is 1600 you live below that candor ingenuity , and discretion that I find in Mr. Marshal and Mr. Blake , who both deny your consequence , and in this case close with us in the very truth . Thirdly , as for the third century , t is somewhat more then probable that such a superstition as infant baptism was comming in at least , or else t is like there would not have been such pro and con as was about it , for , true , Or●gen ( if the Testimonies fathered on him be his own ( which he who well weighs what evidence is put in to the contrary by Mr. Blakwood p. 34 of his Rioynder to Mr. Blake , where he saith , that the original of Origen is ●ost , that the Translator confesses he added many things of his own , that Erasmus saies one cannot be sure whether one read Ruffinus or Origen , that the learned put his commentary on the Romans among his counterfeit works , as much sophisticated by Ruffinus , and also what is said by Mr. Tombs too ( notwithstanding all that Mr. Marshall brings p. 15.16.17.18 . of his to Mr. Tombes , whereby to salve it , will find small ground to believe ) Origen I say , a man of many errors , stiles it a tradition received from the Apostles , which if you will believe implicitly you may , but else you need not , for t is no more then a bare scripturelesse assertion , Cyprian also , and a Councel of 66 bishops , almost contemporary to Origen , are supposed to be of some such mind , but upon such silly grounds , as you that now plead infants baptism , are ashamed of , witnesse Mr. Blake p. 40 who denies them not to be erroneous as Mr. Blakwood calls them , and therefore you may as well be ashamed of their opinion and expression of it also , it being ( for all their reasons ) as scriptureless as that of Origen , who brings nothing to prove what he said . Babist . But Mr. Marshal p. 18. tells you that it was because none opposed the lawfulness of infant-baptism , which if they had , Origen would no doubt have maintained by Scripture , as well as affirmed it to come from the Apostles . Baptist. This is strange , when it is most evident , and Mr. Marshall himself denies it not , that famous Tertullian , the first of that Century , that might in respect of his Seniority to Origen , and Cyprian be stiled a father to them both , perswades by many reasons to deferre the baptism of children , as most profitable , Saying , Let them become Christians when they know Christ. And in another place , It behooves them that are about to enter into baptism to pray with frequent prayers , fastings , kneelings , watching , and with the confession of all their sinnes past , which things infants ( we know ) cannot do . First , then I appeal to your own consciences , and Mr. Marshalls also , whether this be not a plea against it as unlawful , for to decline what 's most profitable is unlawful . Secondly , whether here be not pro and con among the Fathers about it , and so though their testimony serves to prove what Mr. Marshal brings it for , viz. that it was practised in their times , yet it serves not to your purpose , who upon the Fathers and their churches authority , would gather and ground the right of that practise , for who but children will go about to prove the veri●y of a practise by the Authority of those Fathers , whose witnesse agrees not together , and who are contradictory to one another in their testimonies of it , and some of whose testimonies in that thing are quite and clean contradicted by the testimonies of such as concurre with them almost in every thing else ? for so I may truly say the testimonies of Father Austin are , who in one place viz. ad Volusianum Ep. 3. ( according to Mr. Blakes quotation of him p. 51. ) writes thus viz. The Custome of the Church in the baptizing of infants is by no means to be despised , nor to be accounted superfluous , nor yet were it at all to be credited , were it not a tradition of the Apestles . Thus this Father who though inferior to the other in time , yet is not inferiour to the chiefest of them in your Account ; but he brings no Scripture neither any more then Origen for the same , yet it is like some sleighted it as superfluous in his daies : but Ludovicus vives , a man so observant of Austin , that he wrote Annotations upon him , in those very Annotations of his upon the 27th chapter of the first book De civit . Dei ( according to Mr. Denns quotation of him p. 51. against Dr. Featley ) is so far from crediting that he corrects Austin rather as to that piece of faith saying , That of old it was the custome to baptize none unless they were of full age , and did desire baptism in their own persons ; and did undeestand what it was to be baptized . Now who can safely build so much as you do ( unless he mean to be both blindly guided with you , and a blind guide to the blind ) on the authority of such Fathers , as ( saving their honesty in what they knew , and eminency in some things , were yet so silly in some others , that they did the Church no such good office as they wot of , who ere they were that canonized them into such fatherhood over the faith , that their opinions must be as Oracles for all to act by : witnesse good Saint Bernard , the last in that Catalogue , who ( saving that he knew some truth , as other honest men did in those dismal daies wherein he lived ) was w●apt up into a mist of so many other errors , besides that of infants baptism , that we may boldly use the proverb , viz. Bernardus non videt omnia , for ( as Mr. Blackwood quotes out of his 65 ser. in p. 31. of his storm ) speaking of some Christians that opposed the popish stream he sai●h thus . They laugh at us , because we baptize infants , because we pray for the dead , because we require the praiers of Saints . All which doctrine , though falling from a father , is yet indeed too ridiculous to be received for truth , in these daies of its return from captivity , by any but meer children in the Gospel . Thirdly , I appeal to your consciences ( not to Mr. Marshalls and Mr. Blakes here , for they from the Fathers assert no more than matter of fact , that infant-baptism was then , whilest you matter of faith that it ought to be ) whether that foretold testimony of Tertullian may not ballance with those of Origen , Cyprian , &c. who were not so near the pure times of the Apostles as he , and whether he were not as likely as Origen and Austin to know if it had been so that infant-baptism was a Tradition from the Apostles , and in case he did know it , to what end he should deny it to be now dispensed ; or do you imagin him a man of so mean a conceit of the Apostles wisdome , and so highly conceited of his own , that he would forbid that as unprofitable , which the Apostles prescribed , and prescribe a more convenient way himself ? sure he must know as well as they if it were Apostolicall , and they possibly might not know so well as he that it was not , being all Iuniors to him and one of them , viz. Cyprian , so much beholding to him for much of what he had , that he dignified him with the name of his Master , such a diligent disciple , i. e. reader and learner of Tertullian was he , that Damihi Magistrum was his common speech of him ; so that his rational diswasion from infant-baptism , cannot but be a more cogent ground of faith on one hand , then Origens Scriptureless position , and Cyprians Antapostolick , and reasonless reasons , and perswasion to it are one the other , unless you will needs so father it over the Fathers themselves , as to authorize which of them and which of their sentences you please , disowning the rest , as not Orthodox , or Authentick , further then they serve your own turns , and then by my consent they shall be no longer fathers to you , but you fathers over them , and us too in their stead . But Mr. Marshall , who hath a longer arm then every body , reaches us a rap yet by a certain quaere , which he propounds to Mr. Tombs p. 35.36.37 . to which till he hath some answer he will conceive we are so sick of Tertullian that wee le say no more of him . his quaere is this . Babist . Why may not the diswasion cited out of Tertullian de baptismo infantium reasonably be interpreted of the infants of infidells only , whose baptism he would have deferred , till they come to years , and to profess faith themselves , and not of the infants of Christians ? I am inclined to believe that to be the true meaning of the place for such considerations . First , because Tertullian alledges this double reason why he would have the baptism of little ones delaied , viz. least their Sponsors , or Sureties be in hazzard of not fulfilling the promises they make on their behalf , by either their own mortality , or the childrens proving untoward , of ●nclineable to iniquity , for whom they undertake . Secondly , Because t is clear and evident by the 39th . Chapter of Tertullian book , the 18th . Chapter whereof hath this disswasion to baptize little ones , that Tertullian did acknowledge that the children of believers are by birth designati sanctitatis & salutis , counted holy from 1 Cor. 7.14 . not sancti till they be born of water , and the spirit , and have a kind of priviledge , and prerogative by nature , yea such a sanctity , and the very same as is called faederall , or covenant holinesse , that gives right to baptism . Baptist , And so saies Dr. Holmes also p. 122. upon the same text of Tertullian Mr. Marshal quotes , and out of which he raked his 2 reasons , to which second reason or Mr. Marshal I answer . First , and that thus confessing that that good old Father , who is no more infallible than your selves , so that his Sentence without reason proves any thing at all to be de jure , doth seem to me to erre together with you , though not so grossly as you , as touching the genuine sense of the Agostle in that 1 Cor. 7.14 . when he saith to parents of two religions in one civil relation , that their children are holy , and to own a certain meer reputative holiness as there meant , which is not to other children , yet denying altogether that he held any such thing , as that thereupon these children should be baptized , for that is a fictitious conclusion of your own , which follows not , if such a reputative holiness as you wo● of were there meant , nor doth Tertullian so much as hint it in that place , which M. Marshal is so brag off , that he supposes he wounds us shrewdly by setting it down in words at length , and not in figures , x which place will for all that never scare in any wise any wise man of our way , though it be set down by Dr. Holmes y in words at more length and not in figures , i. e. in plain English , and not as Mr. Marshal doth in unenglished Latine , for what if some men think , as for reasons above rendred I surely never shall from that place , that the Apostle is willing to give way to faithful parents to hope well of their children , and to count upon them , till they see either that or the contrary , as more hopefully then others , holy and happy ones , tam ex seminis praerogativa quam ex institutionis disciplina , as having some prerogative above others in being the seed of such who have prayed for them , before they were born , as well as in being more likely to be discipled into the way of holinesse and life , by their godly education of them , is there an necessity of their thinking consequently they must baptize them out of hand , unlesse there were more command from Christ for so sudden administration of that ordinance to them then there is ? I trow not : for a man may look upon his child as some way priviledged by being his seed viz. as a child of more prayers and hopes , and future happinesse and advantages , and present holinesse too then many others , being ignorantly conceited ( as you are ) that some infants in very infancy are eith●r really o● reputatively more holy then some from that place , viz. 1 Cor. 7.14 . and not think them fit as yet to be baptized ; or else ( if he do ) yet not find good ground in Scripture for that thought , by beating the best brains his head piece holds , either about that place , or any other : yea verily I my self , who hold not that high birth priviledge of some infants above others , as you do , who by your mouth ( I mean Mr. Blake ) declare some by nature now as of old to be Children of God , and Saints , and some dogs and swine , some holy i. e. in your sense in Covenant as the Iew of old , and some unclean i. e. in your sense out of Covenant with God , and sinners of the Gentiles , which distinction is now destroyed , much lesse that such prerogative of seed is intended by the Apostle in that tex● , even I my self I say do look on all infants as holy in some sense ( as I have shewed before ) i. e. negative , as far as meer innocency , and freedom from iniquity may denominate holy , not counting them to be in Adam , and so impure , but recounting them in Christ , till by actual sin , and a wicked life they take me off from that account , and on some children also viz. those of Christian parents , as having in some sense a prerogative of seed , so far as they may be a seed of prayers , more then othess , and in some sense too ( not yours ) a holinesse above others i. e. as they may be sanctified to their parents , as blessings , as every thing else may be by their prayers , whether good or evill in it self ( if yet what is blest to us may be properly denominated holy , as every creature is said to be sanctified to the Saint 1 Tim. 4. ) and yet for my life dare I not baptize any at all : and as for Tertullian , though he mistaking Pauls meaning , holds such are holy by a kind of prerogative of seed ( as Mr. Marshall speaks ) yet t is very questionable to me , whether it be that so transcendent kind of birth holiness , and prerogative you expound him of , and howbeit Dr. Holmes and Mr. Marshall would fain fetch that father in by force of forged construction to witnesse as a God-father to their federal holinesse ; yet I cannot easily believe by his words , that he hath respect to any more then a bare recounting , and reputing these to be holy , in a sense abstract from any reallity of their being holy by natural birth , and in their childhood as the Doctor vainly descants on Tertullians phrase wherein he mentions them to be holy , or till such time as they are holy indeed by that new birth from above ; and Mr. Marshal takes my part against the Doctor in this too saying they are in Tertullians sense designati sanctitatis i. e. as these words are expounded by the following , witnesse the Doctor himself , counted holy ; but not Sancti i. e. not holy , till they be born of water , and the spirit p. 36. much lesse can I ever believe that he counted them holy and priviledged above others so far , as thereupon to assert them , or so much as to allow them to be baptized , for that 's an utter in consequence of your own from Pauls text 1 Cor. 7.14 . and from Tertullians text to , who though he take Pauls speech of such childrens holinesse a little the wrong way , yet wrests them not so far out of the way to the proof of such a popish practise as you do , yea there is not a little in Tertullians testimony you so talk of , that tends at all to testifie the truth of infant baptism ; indeed had the Epithet given by Tertullian fidelium filiis been so as that instead of that phrase , wherein he saies they ought to be designati sanctitatis et salutis i. e. reputatively holy and happy ones , he had said they should be signati sanctitatis , & salutis i. e. signed , in your own phrase , sealed ones of holinesse and happinesse , there had been some hint towards baptism , but as t is there is none at all of such a matter . The Dr. draws neck and heels together to make Tertullian speak to his mind , but t will appear he was of another mind then he , as to the baptism of any infants when all is done . for saith he Babist . Tertullian shews childrens capacity of grace and salvation . Baptist. And what then ? yea what if we grant you that they are capable of salvation , yea the Scripture asserts it , and we do not deny it , therefore you need not trouble Tertullian for this testimony , but what follows upon it ? what then ? Babist . What then ? why consequently they are capable of the seal , for the deeds , and their seales follow the right of the inheritance . Baptist. This is your inference Mr. Dr. from which inference of yours , now we talk of inferring , I le infer two things by way of quaere , and so let it passe viz. First , if the seales in plurali , marke your words therefore both at least , yet both are but signs neither in true locution , must both follow the right of the inheritance of which children are in capacity as well as men , then to fill you with your own phrase , why is not one seal of the same inheritance , of the same salvation given to infants by you , as well as the other ? i. e. the supper as well as baptism ? Secondly , if these in plurali , or if no more then baptism be to be given to children consequently upon no more then capacity o● salvation , the capacities of infants being equal , and they quoad nos all alike capable to enjoy it , if God , who is neither bound nor barred , please to bestow salvation , why are not both these , or at least that one sign of baptism , which you give to some infants , given by you to all infants as well as some ? i. e. to ungodly mens children as well as to those of godly parents ? the Dr. strives with all his strength and straines one point more yet to strain Tertullians testimony to his turn , yet will it not do in any wise . Babist . Tertullian in that text mentions not onely childrens being holy , but he mentions also that place Iohn 3.4 . in relation to children , except a man be born again of water and of the spirit &c. from which we may perceive that Tertullian grounds infants baptism upon Scripture . Baptist. To which first supposing that by that birth of water , and the spirit is meant nothing but baptism in that place of Tertullian , we are yet upon , I reply . Secondly , thus viz. appealing to the Drs own conscience , and Mr. Marshals also , whether he speak that very clause of Scripture in that very place of his we are now upon to that very intent , as to ground infant baptism upon it , or whether if it be read with a right and true Emphasis , and reference , it doth not of the two rather suppose it was not to be in infancy ? for having ( as Mr. Marshal understands ) confessed so far of infants of the faithful , that they are designati sanctitatis , et salutis i. e. to be held in the mean time ( to wit ) in childhood , and before baptism , as holy and happy reputatively only , yet he saies that none of all them are sancti i. e. holy indeed ( for that we see is Tertullians sense of the word enter into the kingdom ) unlesse they be born of water and the spirit , that is ( as I conceive ) till they be converted and baptized , which thing that it is at all to the infants of the faithful in their minority he saith not at all here , nor any thing like it , but elsewhere , mentioning the same Scripture Iohn 3.5 . as he puts the water and the spirit together , so both before and behind it , he puts teaching and dipping , faith and baptism as things that by the law of dipping are imposed as of necessity to go together , saying he hath bound f●ith to the necessity of baptism , therefore all believers ( speaking of none else ) were baptized , and then Paul when he believed was baptized , in his book de baptismo advers . Quintil. Editio de la , cerda . vol. 2. p. 153. ibid. c. 13. as Mr. Blackwood quotes him in his storm of Antichrist p. 28 29. so that in the quotation were are yet upon the Antithesis lies thus in my conscience as I read him viz. infants of the faithful in their infancy may be reputatively holy , but not really holy , none being really holy till such time as they be born of water and the spirit , which was not in infancy in Tertullians apprehension , as it seems to me in that very place which the Dr. and Mr. Marshall make so much of , as the words designati sanctitatis , non sancti do shew , whereupon I perswade my self it was that in that other place of his , that I must return to , he uses disswasion from dispensing , and perswasion to deferring baptism to all , but specially to infants , not of infidels onely , but believers also , as I shall shew clearly to Mr. Marshal now , who scruples it , and that by such reasons as shall take that rub and stumbling block of his out of the way ( I mean this last text of Tertullian of his own and Dr. Holmes his alleading ) by which they were both gravelled from believing Tertullian to be ours , for indeed whereas that place he last alleadged did give him supposed ground to scruple whether Tertullians disswasion from baptizing of infants were from any , but the infants of infidels , I hope to shew him such a necessity of understanding his disswasion to be from the baptism of any infants whatsoever , as shall give him contrarily sure ground of belief , that howbeit Tertullian would have some infants higher accounted on then some , yet he would not from thence have any baptized : to which end I shall set down Tertullians disswasions of infant baptism in English , as I find them quoted by Mr. Marshall in latin , who ( I observe ) seldom Englishes what may make against him p. 34. of Mr. Marshall against Mr. Tombes , and in p. 122. of Dr. Holmes in English , and more largely then by either of them by Mr. Blackwood in his storm p. 29. together with the grounds why he would not have little ones baptized , and leave it to be judged what little ones he means . Tertullians words are these viz. According to every ones condition , and disposition , and age , the delay of baptism is more profitable , but especially concerning little children , for what necessity is there ( if it be not so much a necessity ) as to have the sureties also brought into danger ? who may both by their own mortallity sail of fulfilling their promises , and by the increase of an ill disposition be deceived . The Lord saith indeed forbid them not to come unto me , let them come therefore when they grow up to youth , &c. thus far Mr. Marshal and the Dr. Mr. Blackwood writes further thus . Let them come whilst they are young , whilst wherein they come they are taught , let them become Christians when they know Christ : — a little further he saith , shall it be done more warily insecular things , that to whom earthly substance is not committed Divine should be committed ? they shall know to beg salvation , that thou mayst seem to give it to him that asketh it , also in the 20 chapter of the same book he saith , it behoves them that are about to enter into baptism , to pray with frequent prayers , fastings , kneeling , and watchings , and with the confession of their sins past , in all these words , is he recorded by the three authors above named , disswading from baptizing infants : now whereas Mr. Marshall professes he stands much inclined to believe that these little ones to whom Tertullian would have baptism delayed are to be interpreted of the infants of infidels onely ; and Dr. Holmes helps him what he can in this , by quoting the words of learned Iuni●● upon the place , who is just of the same opinion with Mr. Marshall , yet lends him as little reason towards it as one can likely look for from so rational a man , I shall immind them first , that Vossius on the place quoted by Dr. Holmes , in one and the same page with Iunius , found no good ground to evade the bang Tertullian gives to infant baptism in such a fashion , as to say he denies onely the baptism of infidels infants ; how far you will heed him I know not , but he thinks his think thus , viz. not that infants of the faithful are here denied by Tertullian , but that nothing is denied by him but onely the necessity of th●se infants baptism , when there 's n● danger of death , because t is said what necessity ? ( if there be no necessity ) defend you your selves if you will , against that consent ( by silence ) of Vossius to us in this , that t is all infants to whom Tertullian would have baptism delaied ( for that aff●on●s your poor put off ) and I le look to Vossius his own put off as well as I can , that he shall not go clear away with it , for my own part then allowing Vossius his own thought , I take the like liberty to think otherwise , and the boldnesse to assert the contrary viz. That ●ertullian denies more then a necessity of infant baptism , yea he denies any conveniency or lawfullnesse of the thing also , especially in the testimony cited by Mr. Blackwood , which the Dr. and Mr. Marshal durst not mention , and clearly enough in those cited by themselvs , for if it behoves them that are baptized to pray , confesse sin &c. which no infant can do , then it behoves us not to baptize them , and if it bring sureties into danger then t is not convenient nor expedient , as well as not necessary , and if it be more profitable to delay it to infants , then we are so by duty bound to do what 's most profitable , and edifying , that to do otherwise is to do that which is unlawful : moreover it being granted , by Vossius that Tertullian denies but so much as the necessity of baptizing any infants , I le prove thence a necessity not to baptize any , for if there be not more or lesse a necessity of one kind or other viz. vel praecepti vel medii , there 's a necessity at least of letting it alone , for Christ commands no ordinance of his without need , and with such indifferency as destroyes all necessity of obeying it , and what way or point of worship was not ordained by himself , is by command from him of such necessity to be declined , that as he who preaches it ( though an Angell from heaven ) is to be h●ld accursed , so he that doth thereafter shall have no thank for his labor , for in vain do they worship him , that either teach , or take for doctrines the traditions of men . Secondly , and further to prove it , least Mr. Marshal and the Dr. should not grant Vossius that Tertullians denial is of the baptism of all infants , even of believers as well as infidels , I argue that more plainly . First from the universallity of the expression of himself in his disswasion , which extends to all manner of persons without exception ; for it may be thought he was somewhat soiled with that superstition , which was rife in after ages viz. that baptism was best dispensed towards the end of a mans life , that he might have a sign of the forgivnesse of all his sinnes at once , whereupon Tertullian would not have unmarried persons baptized until temptation was over , so far was as he from desiring such early dispensation of baptism as that to infants , I say his perswasion to delay it extends to all manner of persons , and therefore to the infants of believers as well as to other little ones . Secondly , his indefinit and indifferent expression of these little ones concerning which he speaks , for ( saith he ) specially about little ones , promiscuously including all , excepting none , as it had bin necessary for him to do if he would be understood to speak but of some , and not of others : for if Mr. Marshall should preach or write his opinion against the baptism of unbelievers children onely ▪ retaining to himself his present earnestnesse for the baptism of other little ones , and deliver himself downrightly and indifinitely thus onely , in way of dissawsion viz. I would not by any means have little one baptized , I find no ground baptizare parvulos to baptize infants &c. so running on and never distinguishing , so as to say in that sermon or speech , I mean onely infants of infidels , I should not take him for so judicious a man as I yet hold him to be , saving his holding so stiffly still for infant baptism . Thirdly , by the reason he gives why he would not have little ones baptized viz. least their sureties should be in hazzard of non-performance of their words , by reason of their own death , or their God childrens untowardnesse , which danger may come as well by baptism of believers infants as of others : As whose Sponsors , whether fathers or mothers , or God fathers and God-mothers may die before they grow up , or if they live , be frustrated of their ends by the wickednesse of these children , or god-children also . Fourthly , in that he speaks of such children of whom the Lord said forbid them not to come unto me , which in the Priesthoods own sense at least are believers children , yea and them onely , by which clause according to you he may seem to speak of them onely , rather then of infidels childrens onely , whom you your selves forbid to be brought to Christ at all . Fiftly , in that he saies let them become Christians when they know Christ , belike then , if your sense be true , some Infants may be warrantably enough made Christians before they know Christ , but some infants again may not at any hand be made Christians till they know Christ , which if it were Tertullians meaning , as t is yours , he might mean honestly in it ( as you do ) but t is too mean an opinion to keep touch with the word , which never knew any way but one , wherein disciples and Christians were made , i. e. of profest faith , repentance and baptism , after they knew Christ by the preaching of the Gospel . Sixtly , in that he saies we should be more wary then to commit Divine substance to them , to whom earthly substance is not committed , now we know that earthly substance can be no more wisely committed to infants of believers in their non age then to infants of infidels . Seventhly , by one end why he would have them be capable to beg salvation first , viz. that God may seem to give it to them that ask it , which end is destroyed , if baptism be dispensed to believers infants in infancy , for they can no more ask it then the infants of u●believers . Eightly , because he saies it behoves them , indifinitely ( meaning all them ) that enter into baptism to pray and confesse sin , &c. which conditions are as exclusive of all infants as of some , those of believers being no more capable to do that then infants of infidels are . Ninethly , what ever children he disswaded from the baptizing of here ( and so saith Mr. Marshall and Mr. Blake ) its most evident de facto that they were wont to be baptized then , or else there had been no object of his diswasion , therefore if his advice to delay to them , were concerning infants of infidels , then its evident that in Tertullians time t was the custome to baptize infidels infants as well as Christians , and so if antiquity of infant baptism were an argument of its goodnes , it s as good an argument of the goodness of baptizing infidels infants also , which with you is well-nigh as bad as the other is good . Babist . True de facto we have evidence that the baptism of infidels infants then was , but that fathers disswading from it is an argument that t was nought and though crept in yet a thing that was not so from the beginning . Baptist. Then I hope , if ever you come to be perswaded , and it is a wonder that none of the reasons above be cogent , that t was indeed from baptizing of any children at all that Tertullian diswaded , we have an argument of your own for it that the baptism of any mens infants is naught also , and a thing that was not so from the beginning , and so if Mr. Marshall himself be not by this time sick of Tertullian I assure both him and on all that I am , and of all the Fathers also , with whom in this controversie I would not have meddled , but that your Pamphlet flutters so so with naming the Fathers ; and takes i●●ll that testimonies from the Fathers were not taken on the day of the Ashford disputation : I say again I am sick of them , not so much with fear at the sight of any thing in any of them , that makes against us , for I find nothing that hath the strength of a straw against our way throughout them all , even these few Iunior , inferior ones themselves , that are most against us , for the Seniors are more fully on our sides , and some of the Iunior ones also , as Basil , and Chrisostome , both in the fourth Century , whose words , as Mr Blakwood cites them p. 28 , 29. of his storm , are thus viz. First he ought to believe , and after to be sealed with baptism , and if any one have not corrected the transgression of his manners , and hath not made vertue easie to himself , let him not be baptized . Which words are exclusive of infants , t is not therefore any disadvantage that comes by them to our cause , which I am sick of , But First , with spending so much time , and searching so much into their testimonies ( as you have compelled me to do ) that me thinks I am out of my element , where I desire to be , i. e. the Scriptures , whet●er I le return by and by ( God willing ) especially this last testimony of Tertullian , which yet I could not help unless I would for want of help betray the truth , when I saw how Mr. Marshal , Dr. Holmes , and others had almost stolen away corrupted and by fair words enticed our old friend Tertullian , to serve on their side , for we would not willingly be cousined of what is our due : ye● least any man should think of me above that he seeth me to be , and take me to be a man of much reading , because I talk so much of the Fathers , I testify that I am of little further acquaintance with these Fathers , for my converse is mostly with Ma●thew , Mark , Luke , Peter , Paul , Iude Iames , and Iohn , then this controversie hath brought me to , which now is so much that though I honor them , as honest and good men in their times , as finding many things of much worth , and excellency in them , yet for all that I am sick , Secondly , with seeing what abundance of absurdities , silly reasons , senselesse anti-scriptural sentences , odd conce●ts , vanities , va●ieties of error , as well as verities , uncertainties whether some of their books be their own or no , mistranslations foisting of what of their own other men please into their works as Ruffinus into Origen , falsities , flat contradictions amongst themselves , and such like are to be found among them , sufficient enough to cause all men to trust no more to their testimonies , then with their own eyes they see the same testifyed in the Scriptures . Thirdly , I am sick more yet to find the whole Clergy after whom the whole world wonders , and walks in error , wondring so much after these Fathers , and walking after them , where they walk in error , and yet neglecting to give heed to them where they speak the truth , and which is worst of all , sleighting the short pure , and plain waies of God , the Father of all , of Christ our Father , and the first Fathers next and immediately under God and Christ , Supreme Governors of the Church , and givers out of the Gospel to the world , I mean the Apostles , who in my mind write the way of the Gospel , if men were not willing to go astray from it , because it is narrow , self denying , and thorny , though more briefly yet more clearly to any common capacity , then the most voluminous of all the other fathers do , for we use all plaine●s of speech saies Paul 2 Cor. 3. Wherefore Fourthly , and Lastly I am sick most of all to consider , what a stirr ministers make in their quotations of the Fathers , marching on , and giving such a broad side , as they think , with two or three sentences ou of the fathers , as if they would bear all men down before them , that come near them , no higher read then in the Scriptures , no better armed then with the sword of the spirit , the word of God ; For this only is dispised as much as Davids sling and stone before Goliah , and this too , though in coole bloud the Scripture is confessed by themselves to be so instar omnium , that nothing is of any force , but what flowes from it : for though some Clergy men dote so far that they believe the Fathers , no otherwise then they would have the world to believe themselves , i. e. because ipse dixit , yet some are so wise as to confesse , that how far forth soever the Fathers may serve to prove to us things de facto to be done in their several ages , yet their testimonyes de facto cannot prove any thing to us to be de jure at all , whereas if it be so , and ye so it is , I am me thinks become a fool at this time in falling , before I was aware , so up to the ears in contest about a few testimonies of the fathers , as well as I and others heretofote , in counting so extraordinarily on them : wherefore I do henceforth humbly conceive , and confess my self to the people , together with all my fellow father-fool'd friends , viz. the Clergy of all Christendome , to have been no better then childish and semi-simple so far as such high and holy heed , and such heedlesse submission hath been given by us to these fathers , Schoolmen , and other authors , as hath occasioned extreme seduction from the Scriptures : hear therefore O thou most miserably be wildred Priesthood of the Nations , and understand , for so thou shalt if thou return from out of that thick wood of Authors , Polemical Tracts , Schoolmen , Casuists , Tomes , Volumes of Fathers , Councels , Commentators , Treatises , Systemes of Theology , framed forms of old and New Creeds , long and short Catechismes , confessions of Churches , &c. in which thou hast wandred and lost thy self from the truth , to the unfeigned study of that little book of Scriptures , which alone , if thou wilt be admonished by it , is able to make thee , and them that hear thee wise enough unto salvation : Thou speakest what thou hast seen of thy fathers we speak what we have seen of our Fathers : what thine teach in their books , we regard not quâ ipsi dixerint , unless quâ dictum prius by our Fathers , if they teach no other then what our Fathers teach in theirs , it is no more then what thou , having the same Scripture , the same liberty , to search , the same promise of the same spirit to guide , the same accesse to God in prayer for it , mayest learn , not at second hand from them , but at first hand from thence , as easily as themselves , but when they go aside , from that , and thou with them , and thine with thee a venture , this seems no other to me then Ignis fatuus with a false flash going before , and Ignoramus fatnus with his false faith , and a number of ignorants following after . Thou tellest us of thy novel antiquity of Counsels , National , Oecumenicall , of Churches Greek and Latin , of Fathes , Austin , Gregory , &c. and yet confessest thy self that particular Churches have erred , and may erre , and if all particulars , then why the universal , which consists of all particulars cannot , thou canst not prove , and that generall councels , which the School-men term the representative Church , are sub●ect to error . and have sometimes decreed heresie and falshood for truth , thou confessest by Dr. Featley p. 17. of his figment ; And that none of the fathers , nor yet the joint consent of many is a competent judge for faith to hang upon , concerning the right of things , is confest by Mr. Blake p. 58. of his to Mr. Blackwood , and yet ( to go round again ) thou ventest thy self out of the mouthes of others , as if their verdict were enough to warrant , and canonize all that for verity that is vented by them . Tell us therefore no more ( as Dr. Featley doth ) of Gregory nor yet of Gregory the great , whose testimonies if they were for thee ( but now I think on t they are not , for in the place cited by Dr. Featley himself , in the very forehead of his book in the next page of all before the fi●st , t is evident that Greg. Nazianzen was for infants baptism but in case of danger onely i. e. if they were likely to die in infancy , otherwise saith he ( for so Mr. Den cites Gregories words more fully ) in the place which the Doctor docks . and custs off in the midst p. 49. of his answer to Dr. Featley , otherwise let them stay still they be capable to hear and to answer , and no more to your purpose speaks Pope Gregory the great , whose words are cited out of Mr. Fox by Mr. Cornwell , and out of Mr. Cornwell by Dr. Featley p. 63.64 . in way of resolution to Austin the monk are no other then the same viz. that in case of necessity infants might be baptized as soon as they were born ) yet were their testimonies any more for thee , then they are against thee they could make nothing for thee , as to evince the equity of thy cause . As for our way of baptism , if it were our way onely , we trust we should be against it our selves , but sith it is the onely way of that word , by which all works must be tried , and all persons judged , whose authority alone being absolutely divine , if it were of any esteem with the adversaries thereof , were enough to silence their disputes against it , it will stand though never so many Councels and things which thou callest Churches , and a 1000 Gregories were against it . By this time you may see O ye Ashford Synodians ! how little ground you would have gotten by it if the Authorities of the Church of God from the beginning , and the fathers of both that and after ages had been used by you , to the advantage of your disputation , when as not onely the primitive fathers of all i. e. the Apostles , and the Church in their daies , whose authorities you rebell against , are wholly against you , but also the prime of those postern fathers , and the Church in their daies , whose authoritie you so stand upon , are nothing fot you . But if by fathers and Chutch you should chance to mean either the universall CCClergy , and their CCChristendom , or the Christned Emperors , Kings , and civil governours , that have thrown down their crowns to the Clergy , and according to the CCClergies cruel sense and wicked will , have been hitherto nursing fathers , to the Christen Nations , which they have reigned over , both of which the Clergy hath reigned ore and nursed , alias nusled in ignorance to this day Rev. 17. then indeed ( as Caiaphas did in an another case ) you speak truer then you are aware of , for their authority alone ( I mean so far forth as it hath acted it self in a way of meer might besides right● if it were of any esteem with such as chuse to obey God rather then man , were enough to silence all disputes against infant-baptism indeed , at least to lay the itch , and quench the heat of them , when not onely the Popes paternal precepts , and decretals in the latin Church , ( witnesse that of Innocentius the third , who Decret . Greg. l. 3. ( as cited by Mr. Cornwel ) enacted that the baptism of infants should succeed circumcision ) but also the imperial lawes and constitutions . as well as Synodicall cannons , required infant baptism in the Greek Church , and that so strictly too ( as Mr. Marshall himself alledges out of Photius p. 33.34 . to Mr. Tombes ) that whatsoever baptized persons would not bring their children and wiues too ( that 's more whereby you may note the goodnesse of those rimes and Churches when a baptizd husband was forct to bring his wife as well as his seed to baptism ) should be punished , and who ever denied baptism to a new born infant should be Anathematized , or cursed with a most bitter curse : when also ( as Dr. Featley boasts out of Gastius p. 68. of his book ) At Zurick after many disputations between Zwinglius , and the gainsayers of infant baptism , the Senate made an act that if any presumed to rebaptize ( aliàs baptized such as were falsely supposed to be baptized before ) should be drowned ; and at Vienna many , meerly for baptizing such , were so tied together in chaines , that one drew the other after him into the river , wherein they were all suffocated : and at Ropolstein , the Lords of that place decreed , that such should be burnt with an hot Iron ▪ and bear the base brands of those Lords in whose lands they had sinned , and p. 182. out of Pontan . Catolog . Through Germany , Alsatia and Swedland many 1000 s of this sect , who defiled their first baptism ( i. e. their no baptism ) by a second , ( a true one ) were baptized the third time with their own blood , i. e. miserably tortured ( as some have bin in England also both old and new ) yea massacred , and murdered by fire and fagot for this , and other resistance of the Romish stream , by racking , headings , hangings , pinching with hot pincers , stabbings , and such like wayes whereby the self-preserving common-wealth of Clergy men , that they might testifie their cause by the Neronean cruel●y of it , to be of Christ , who in the 9th chapter of just no where , charges all his ministers to impower all Christian magistrates to imprison , spoil , torment , hang , banish , burn , drown , whip , fine , flea and destroy all such , as in foro hominum Synodicantium , non Dei , deny his name , have restored those that have to their offence been overtaken with the fault of unfeigned faith , and true obedience in the spirit of meekness , in all ages of their reign . So that if either fear , or fire , or blood , or water were sufficient , there hath hitherto wanted none of all these to suffocate the disputers , to lay the itch and quench the heat of disputes against infant baptism : but as the hast of these times wherein God begins to find the magistrates othor work viz. to curb the Christian cruelty of that whore , that hath thus rid them into rigor against the Saints , doth forbid the the ministers to be so throughly provided with them as heretofore , so modesty doth to use those knocking arguments now in these times of Orthodozism , where in both the Clergy , and their bloody tenet of persecution for cause of conscience , are discovered dayly in their colours . How little then the Authorities of fathers and Churches , in case we grant them to come in thereunto , can contribute to your assistance is apparent , and now that those modern authors you promise your Reader such through furniture from viz. Calvin , Vrsin , and Featley upon this subject , and also such others , as ( though you name them not here yet ) have improved themselves more singularly on that single subject , then any of these have done , as little help you , if they be well heeded , I come now in the fourth place to discover . And first , as for your worthy Dr. Featley , he is so worthily defeated and disarmed of all his Artillery by Mr. Denn , that it were but to attempt the stripping of a naked , and encountring of a wounded man , to meddle much more with his arguments , which are all sufficiently secured , and disabled from doing much mischief ro the true baptism ; onely for his high charges of the Anabaptists ( as he calls them ) as a bloudy , illiterate , lascivious , lying , sacrilegious fact , whether they may not more easily be made good against the Clergy in general , then against the generallity of them he calls so , may possibly be examined hereaf●er . And as for Calvin and Vrsin , t is true they are both against us in the maine , but in some things so flatly against you in the mean , that you have as little cause to brag of their assistance of you , as the Kirk of Scotland had to blesse themselves in the help of their King and his party , who though they were all against England yet were so eager against each other , that they rather weakned each others forces , for thus do you Ashford arguers for infant-baptism , and those two Champions you seem to crack of , as propugnators with you of the same , who are such strenuous impugnators of their opinions , asseverations and principles about the point , as to debillit●te and raze them down as impious , and impedimental imbecillities : for they cry out ( as I have shewed more at large above ) Christus non adimit salutem its quibus adimitur baptismus : quantum damni invexerit dogma illud &c. Christ doth not deny salvation to them to whom baptism is denied , what mischief that opinion brings that baptism is necessary to salvation few consider , and the opinion that they are damned who are not baptized , makes as if the grace of God were lesse to us then to the Iews &c. and there seems no small injury to be done to the covenant of God not to rest in this principle , that infants are not excluded from the kingdom of heaven , who depart out of this life without baptism , and more of this sort ; so that instead of being strengthned in your last arguments at least , wherein you assert that denying baptism to little infants destroyes the very hope of their salvation , which is as much as to say , Baptismum esse de necessitate salutis , and perditos esse omnes quibus aqua tingi non contingit &c. that baptism of infants is so necessary to their salvation , that parents can have no hope of their salvation if it be denied them , and that injury is done to the Covenant of God , and that the Gospel is worse then the law if infants be not bap●ized , instead I say of being strengthned by these m●ns testimonies you turn us off to , contrary wise you are rather spoiled , and stark strip● of a moity of that argumenrative furniture , whereby you strive to stiffen your selves , and others against the truth , even of no lesse then one or two of those three principal pillars , wherewith you under pin your false practise , and fortifie it from falling flat unto the ground . As for the other men , that together with your selves are up in armes in this age for infant-baptism , so odiously are some of them at odds with you , and among themselves , as also some of you are with them , and among your selves , that it s well nigh enough to render a wise man mad , at least a doubting man more distracted then resolved , to hear , read , and see the wonderful jars , that are among modern Divines , as touching the various opinions , ends , grounds and principles , upon which they plead and practise in this point of infant-baptism . For not to speak here of the jarrs , which the baptism of persons in infancy , occasions necessarily between the preachers assertions of baptisms nature , use , offices , ends , and the peoples practicals , and infants capacities , not one of which in infancy appears to the preachers to have any of those things , which they say baptism signs , seals , and is used for viz regeneration , real union with Christ by faith , and incorporation into him , participation of his spirit , and confirmation of their faith by it &c. nor one of many , when they grow up to years neither , the most of them whom they so incorporate into Christ , and signifie to the world ( by baptism ) that they are without doubt so accepted , and eternally beloved of Christ , proving wicked , and rejected of him as much as those , who remain unbaptized till they are at age , of which jars Mr. Blackwood speaks plainly p. 17.18.19 . of his storm ▪ to which as little or nothing to the purpose as Mr. Blake replies , p. 41.42 . yet he is answe●ed again in Mr. Blackwood● rejoinder p. 30. Nor yet to speak of the jarrs that are between the grounds upon which our modern Dieines plead infant baptism , and those of the antient fathers , as Cyprian and such others viz. his 66. Bishops , which are so silly and ridiculously superstitious , that I am perswaded our Divines who live in these dayes wherein truth is comming from under those clouds , which then it was comming under , are ashamed of them , and therefore invent what new ones they can , and let them alone , thus mangling the Fathers , and quartering to their own use what they please out of them , and even deifying some , whilest they defy others of their sayings , receiving their words , and witnesse in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that infant-baptism ought to be , as right and rare , rejecting their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or reasons why it should be , as unsound , too rank , stark nought , refuse , and rotten ; but not to meddle ( I say ) with these discords here , my intent is rather ( have patience with me whilst I do it ; but do it I must , whether you take it patiently or no ) to discover the deep discord that is between you modern Divines among your selves , which till you are better agreed will make you uncapable of ever subecting others again unto your dictates in infants baptism . Babist . Is it not a marvel that so many eminent Divines , industrious in the study of this Argument , should so unanimously jar with their own principles , and not be able to discern it , but all those many must leave it to you to discover it ? Baptist. So saies Mr. Blake indeed p. 41. of his repulse in a lusory way to Mr. Blackwood , to whom I seriously reply , yea t is a mighty marvel indeed , to see such an heap of witnesses concur so well together by the years ( as all your famous Oxthodoxists do , in their doctrine about infant baptism , some teaching one thing , others clean contradictory to that , and yet all remaining orthodox still for all this . Really Sirs such a shamefull conjunglement is to be found in your positions about the grounds you profess to go upon in this point , as will in time though now you will not see it , make you all amazed one at another , that ever such a marvellous work and wonder , should fall out among you , as in the just judgement of God for your teaching his fear after mens precepts , there doth at this day , viz : such a hiding of understanding from the prudent that even the princes of Zoan should be befooled , confounded , contradicted by none more then themselves , and yet not take notice of it . Sirs you had need to Synodize one year more , and to Catechise one another into a little more Concordance about your principles before you Catechetically impose that practise upon whole nations , unless your grounds were more agreeable then they are with both the word and each other ; for some of you preach up that your practise , and plead it with all your might from 1 Cor. 7.14 . taking the word ho●y there as it stands in Deut. 7 . 6-14.2-26.19 . and other places , where it is most evident that it signifies a people consecrated to God in the same way , as the Priests Temple , Altar , Sacrifices , and all things then under the law were , and now nothing at all is , and yet I have known some of you again , that have acknowledged the words sanctifyed and holy in 1 Cor. 7.14 . cannot be taken in any such sense , but in that very sense wherein we take them , yet supposing infants-baptism to follow from other places ; Some of you preach it up and plead it with all your might from Mark 10.13 . &c. as if you did believe , and would make folks believe , that the children that were then brought to Christ were baptized either by him or his disciples , and truly if you believe it not , what is that Scripture then to your purpose ? nay it makes more strongly against you for if these very infants that were brought to , and blessed by Christ himself , to whom you say he declared the Kingdome to belong , were not baptized , your presumption is very high , who dare baptize other infants , of whom you have no such testimony : yea some of you say that their bringing to Christ for imposition of hands doth suppose them to have been baptized before they came ( I wonder by whom ) witnesse Dr. Holmes p. 61.63 . yet some of you again confesse the contrary , viz. Mr. Cotton p. 9 of his grounds and ends , whom Dr. Holmes so justifies , and magnifies , who in confutation of him saies thus . That it doth not appear that the Fathers that brought these infants were baptized themselves , and therefore neither might their children be baptized according to rule . And yet both Mr. Cotton and his neighbour Mr. Cobbet also , and even every one else almost that writes , or speaks as well as you Ashford Disputants , make mighty ado ( but nihil ad rhombum ) from that place also . Some of you plead the sprinkling of believers infants ( for none else must be sprinkled by the Popes confession , only he takes believers not in so strict a sense as some do ) from Act. 2.39 . supposing that those to whom Peter said the promise is to you and to your children , were believers and already in the faith , even then when he thus bespake them , which if they were t were nothing to your matter , witness Mr. Vahan of Smarden at the Dispute at Ashford , whose Arguments being it seems none of the most material , are excluded from your Account , whose supposition was supported with a position as false and silly as it self , yet is it a maxime with the Clergy that was then blerted out from among you , viz. that the desire of grace is grace ; in refutation of which your doctrine , appeal was made by your Respondent to the people , whether the desire of Drink was Drink ? and whether because they all desired to go to heaven , therefore they were at heaven ? others again acknowledge the truth in this , viz. that the men were yet in unbelief while Peter spake that to them , as Mr. Cotton p. 35. of his grounds , who saith thus , when he calleth men to believe , or to repent he cometh to them not as having faith , and repentance , but as wanting both , and Mr. Prigg also , who hasting into the help of Mr. Vahan at the Ashford disputation , happily more then heartily help the Respondent against Mr. Vahan , and him●elf too by his plain contradiction of the other , and conjunction with the Respondent in that , viz. that the men to whom Peter then spake in presenti , the promise is to you and your children &c. were not yet in the faith , but the promise was made to them , as they who yet did not , should believe , i. e. in futuro : for ( by your favour Gentlemen ) if it be thus , then it should seem , and so t was told you then , but you would not hear it , that the promise of remission of sins , ( though it be made good to believers , and none else , no not to their fleshly seed ( quâ tales ) unless they also believe , when they come to years , for if they be taken away in infancy , both they and all other infants , of whom I find not where God requires faith , so dying may be saved without it , and are too though it cross your cruel conceit of heathen infancy ) this promise I say was made by Peter to unbelievers , and their children , yea and is in very deed to all men in the world , and their children , Jewes or Gentiles , neer or far off , whether , in time or place ; yea to every Creature that then was , hath been since , now is , or ever shall be to the worlds end is the promise made Mark 16.15 , 16. by Christ himself , who is the purchaser of eternal salvation for all men , though actually the eternal saviour of none of those , to whom his Gospel is preached , save only such as obey him Heb. 5.9 . yet none of all this warrants your sprinkling believers infants onely in their infancy , any more then it warrants your sprinkling of so many hundreds of unbelievers infants , as you do still , as striet as you lace up baptism to believers infants onely in the state of your question ; for to say no more then the truth that 's another of your Hocus pocus's , which when your customers come to find out , they will be ashamd of you & you of your selves if you be not past it , you I say , yea specially you of the strict Presbytery , who cry out upon your parish people as for the most part profane , and ignorant , impenitent , and unbelieving , & in such a wretched condition that except they b● converted they will perish , nor dare you admit them to the Supper least they eat and drink their own damnation , and yet their children are the seed of believers with you still , to whom belong the promises , and right to the seals for their sakes . Yea ( O ye several parishes where these men preach , not in the city only , but in the Countreys of Kent , Sussex , and other places ) let me Apostrophize a little to you , least your Clergy should not heed it , if I speak onely to them , have you not heard your teachers thundring you as Malignants , for the most part , threatning you to come in and to be reconciled to God , as those that are yet enemies to him , and his people , ( meaning those few that are better friends to them then the major part of you are ) calling to you as crucifiers of Christ , and preaching Peters doctrine Act. 2. by the halves , saying repent , repent ? for howbeit they should say somewhat more to such sinners as you seem to be in their eyes , viz. repent and be baptized ●very one of you in the name of Christ for remission of sins ; yet they put themselves out of all capacity of preaching , and you of practising thus , whilest they make you believe you are aforehand in the business of baptism , because of something like , or rather very unlike it , which was dispensed to you in infancy called sprinkling , which they have sprinkled into the name of baptism : yea have not some of them , kept the Lords Supper wholly from you all , for as many years together as they have lived among you , and the rest kept back many hundreds of you as wicked , and unworthy from that ordinance , communicating in it with two or three score , upon such like pretence of Scripture , viz. what communion , what part hath light with darknsss , Christ with Belial , the Temple of God and Idolators , believers and infidells ? for what else can they pretend ? for if you were all believers , and all walking in the light as God is in the light , ye might have fellowship one with another therin , the blood of Christ his son cleansing you from all sin ; as to the Supper therfore you are unbelievers , yet are you not all , or at least the most of you believers when you have children to be sprinkled ? you are unbelievers when your Minister is in the Pulpit and at the Table , but owned all as believers , while he stands at the Font or Bason , whose persons for want of faith , repentance , and better behavior they will not admit to the Supper : do you not see how you are nosed , and gulled and Priest-ridden ? whilest with them you are ungodly persons , and yet godly parents ; Church-members and belivers at one time , and yet neither this nor that at another ; one while sheep ( specially at washing and sharing time ) whose little ones are lambs , that must be bosom'd , and brought to Christ , and baptized as those to whom the Kingdome of heaven , and priviledges of it are intailed , and belong by right of generation , and birth of Christian professors , and many such good morrowes : another while , viz. at next Communion , that entail is cut off again , you being unbelievers , and perhaps ( to go round again ) at next child you have to christen its tack on again : so that when they are pleased , or rather profitted by that title , you are the flock of God , purchased with his own blood , over which the holy Ghost hath made them overseers both to feed , and feed on ; and when they please to improve the power and turn the key of the kingdome upon you , they shut in with an hand ful of their own leaven , as the true Turtle , choise Church , spiritual Sp●use , Synagogue of Saints , and lock twenty to one of you out from feasting with them , as a company of Car●ion Crowes , of Carnal Christians , hateful hangbyes , Servants of Satan , as a heard of Wolves , and Goats , and Dogs and Swine . Again , some of you say Paedobaptism is a tradition of the Church as Dr. Gouge , who used such an assertion to Mr. Barber , as an Argument to him to take the oath ex officio , and therefore belike , being like to offend his fellowes if he did , he would not at any hand deliver his opinion pro or con in answer to Dr. Chamberlain , whether the sprinkling of infants were of God or man ? also Mr. Daniel Rogers who saith it is as reverend a Tradition of the Church as any , but confesses himself unconvinced by any demonstration of Scripture for it ; others say it is an Apostolicall Tradition , and institution of Christ , and among these some say there is neither expresse ●or positive command or example for it in the New Testament , as Mr. Hunton , yet good consequence for all that from the Old to prove it Christs Ordinance , yea & as good from the New as there is for women to eat the Supper , as Mr. Marshall , though the best consequence that I ●nd the wisest of you make is to me as far fetcht as Peter had the keyes given to him , therefore the Pope may sell pardons for money , and save as many souls as he pleases , and that 's a ground or conseqence as far shor● as an improbabillity , yea as an impossibility is to a certainty , in respect of that which is for womens fellowship in the supper , for there 's as much president and precept too for that , as there is for mens , it either women may be disciples , believers , and Church members as t is sure they may , and were Act. 1.14.2 41.42.17.12 . ( though infants , neither were nor can be , till they have learned ) or if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be of the common gender 1 Cor. 11.28 . expressing both sexes , and as well the woman as the man , as those gentlemen know very well it is , that shroud themselves under so thin a shrub , from the storm that is now lighting on their garisons , as Mr. Calvin once did , and Mr. Mar●h●l , and others still do : others not venturing the cause wherein the whole Clergy is so neerly concerned upon such a ticklish term , as that of a tradition of the Church stand to it that there 's both precept and president for it in the Scriptures seeming to yield , that if at least there be not one of them , we have not warrant to meddle with it ; and of this sort I have met with many a one , I am sure with more then one , who when they have in publique disputes bin but put to assign and produce those places where that plain precept and president is contained , they send us to such Scriptures where unbiassed men may sooner ●ind the way of a serpent upon a rock then either institution or instance of infant sprinkling viz. for precept to the second commandement Exod. 20. so Dr. Channel at Petworth Ian. 1. 1651. saying that the second commandement enjoines us to observe all the institutions of God and Christ from time to time , but not seeing that he was by right to have brought some other scripture first , whereby to prove infants baptism to be one of those institutions which was the thing denied , and not the other , for we grant that all Christs institutions are to b● obeyed . without putting any man to carry us so far back to the second commandement to convince us of it , but we deny still that its one of Christs institutions that infants should be baptized a●● to Mat. 28.19.20 which was assigned to me both by Mr. Reading at Fo●●●ton 1650. and also by Dr. Channel at Petworth , out of which I making it appear by argument , and by comparison of this with the same passage ( as recorded in other words Mark. 16.15.16 . ) that those , who are bid to be baptized there , are such as are also commanded first to be taught , preacht to &c. therefore not infants , these two men , that might both be worthily renowned ( for ought I know ) in respect of their worth otherwise , were their parts improved as much for , as they are against the truth in this point , and were it not their hap to be yet bes●h●old beside the Gospel , as t is in truth , replied both to one & the same purpose , but nothing to their own viz. that when Christ saies go reach and baptize , and he that believeth and is baptized , in these expressions he speaks of persons at years , not of infants , for such must be taught first , but that hinders not but that infants may be baptized before teaching : and this is the very common wind away of you all , to all whom ( as to them then ) so I say now again , if the Scriptures , and commands of your own assigning do speak of persons at age onely , and there 's no mention at all of children in either of them ( for in those words Dr. Featley expresses all your minds concerning Mat. 28. Mark. 16. when brought by us against infant baptism ) where are the Scriptures that do mention infants , so as to institute their baptism ? if I should assert this that Christ commanded that infants should eat at his table , and being put to assign what Scripture it s commanded in , should name 1 Cor. 11.28 . and when it s argued against me to the contrary , saying that place permits them onely to come , that can examine themselves , as infants cannot , therefore t is no command for infants to come , should answer thus viz. there 's no mention at all of children in that text , much lesse any prohibition of infants to come , when Paul saies , let a man examine himself , he speaks of persons at years onely , but that hinders not why infants may not come without self-examination , would you not say I were half out of my wits ? yet thus do you all almost ( as well concerning places of your own assigning , as those we bring viz. Mat. 28. Mark. 16.16 . Act. 2. Repent and be baptized Act. 8. if thou believest thou maiest ) return thus viz. those phrases speak of adult ones , and not of infants ; and so say I of these and every Scripture else that speaks of baptism , and I trow where is that place that makes mention of any such thing as the baptism of infants ? Secondly , in president of which you send us to the housholds , wherein your selves cannot tell that there was any infant therein at all : which is as much as to say and urge ( ab exemplo ) thus viz. t is not certain by any one instance thereof , that any one infant was baptized in those housholds , which are said to be baptized in the primitive times . Ergo no doubt but by the same example infants ought to be baptized now . Again , some of you urge Mat. 28. as the institution of Christ for baptizing men of ripe years at least , yea and infants also ( as Mr. Marshall ) some of you again deny this , saying that Mat. 28. is not an exact platform of Christs commission concerning the matter or subject of the administration of baptism ( as Dr. Holms p. 7. ) both which men direct their different doctrines to Mr. Tombes in order to his direction : but how shall that man be resolved ? which shall he cleave to ? whose words shall he take , the Doctors or the Divines ? Again , some of you say , that semen carnis a fleshly seed is intituled to the promise , ( for even this seed with you is semen fidei ) some of you say semen sidei the spiritual seed onely : i. e. as many as are of the faith ( and so faith the Scripture ) are blessed with faithfull Abraham , but then semen fidei with you is no other but semen carnis the fleshly seed , and that of such too , as are Abrahams seed , not after the flesh , nor after the faith neither : thus you wander in a wood , and trace too and fro in a thicket , moap up and down in a myst , are rapt up in a cloud of confusion , contradiction and unanswerablenesse about the proof of a popish practise , dancing round , and crossing the way one of another ever and anon , and yet ken it not , nor consider how all mens eyes , that are but half open , are half amazed at your shufles . Again , some of you pin your practise upon the score of the infants faith , and of these again there are several subdivisions , for some ground it on seminall faith onely i. e. the habit , or on infants having faith , denying utterly their capacity to act it i. e. to believe ( as Mr. Willcock and many more . ) Some again deny that they do build it upon seminall faith , but say they go upon more certain grounds as Mr. Blake p. 24. to Mr. Blackwood , who saith of faith in the root , or of this semniall faith , this faith is not our ground for infants baptism , being undiscernable . Some again upon their acting faith , which they assert infants capable to do ( though against their wills ) as well as to have it , as ( to the clear contradiction of themselves ) Mr. Willcock , and many more do , whilst they with him , and he with them speak of children in this phrase viz. that they do believe , and thus they speak whilest they interpret that clause Mat. 18.6 . i. e. these little ones which believe in me , of little ones litterally taken , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 credere i. e. to believe expresses not the habit onely , but the act of faith , as to know , to read , to teach , to love , to learn do sound out non munus , non actum primum onely , but actum secundum also . Some of you again put that practise upon score of the parents faith , not the childs , and of these , which are also subdivided , some the faith of the next parents onely , as Dr Holmes , who in his to Mr. Tombes p. 216.217 . saith thus , the children are not to be baptized whilst the next parents are unbelievers i. e. though the grand parents be believers , and Mr. Cotton also , who p. 87. of his book stiled the way of the Churches of New England saith thus , God never allowed his Church any warrant to receive into Covenant the children of godly parents , who lived a thousand years ago , nay rather the text is plain that the holynesse of the children d●pendeth upon the faith of the next immediate parents , or one of them at least , as if the seed of parents were not their seed at two or three generations off ; others the faith of the remote parents , as Mr. Rutherford Pres. p. 164 where he saith , all infants born in the visible Church , what ere the wickednesse of the neerest parents is , are to be received into the Church by baptism : yea p. 173 Joshua had commandement of God to give the seal of the Covenant to their children , who were as openly wicked against the Lord , as murderers , drunkerds , swearers &c. also Mr. Marshall and Mr. Baily who commends Mr. Cottons lear●ed maintenance of infants sprinkling in p. 132 , and yet contradicts him in this thing , no further off then p. 134. saying , although the parents are wicked , ( meaning the immediate parents ) yet the Lords interest is in the children i. e , not of the 3 ● and 4 th but of the 1000 th generation ; and by this shift the Ishma●●●ts , the Edomites , the Turks are of Abraham , though not of Isaac , and so Gods by birth ; yea we and the whole world are of Noah , though not of Abraham , and so belike must be baptized , and Mr. Blake in p. 24. of his birth-priviledge , who saith , If the ground of a childs admission to baptism be not the faith of his immediate parents , but the promise made to Ancestors in the faith , whose seed is though at a greater distance , then the loose life of an immediate parent can be no bar to his baptism : this is plain if Josia have no right from his father Ammon , yet he is not shut out in case he have right from his father David , or his father Abraham , yea even all the national Clergy ( I think ) excepting your new English , and congregationall men , and lastly they themselves too , witnesse Dr. Holmes , who p. 11 , makes the remote father Abraham he , upon whose belief those 3000 Iewes in Acts 2. were to be baptized , a●d Mr. Cotton himself ( Aliquando bonus dormitat Homerus ) who p. 79. of his grounds &c. affirms all the seed ( and then surely the seed to many generations as well as the nearest ) to be holy by adoption , and wearies himself , and his reader in about 20 pages , to prove remote Abraham to be the parent , upon whose faith the Iew shall be taken in at last viz. from p. 79. to p. 100. Some again put the practise of infant baptism upon the score of neither the childs nor the fathers faith necessarily , but on the faith of Christian Sponsors , and of these there 's two sorts too , considering Sponsors as either witnesses , or sureties , aliâs Gossips or Guardians : first , some sprinkle them upon the witnesses or gossips faith , thus all that still retain the old English deformation , after which yet the New English Christians that were born here , were Christ●ed by the Priests , saying I baptize thee when they did but Rantize , which practise though the directory allow as the ordinary way , yet the common prayer book did not , save in case of necessity , which Priests , when they should by right baptize the sp●nsors professing their faith and repentance from dead works , and desires to be baptized in that faith in these words , we forsake them all , all this we stedfastly believe , that is our desire , instead thereof take a child , of what parents it matters not , out of the midwifes arms , putting two or three drops of water upon the face of it , and so there 's an end of the business : this is that which Mr. Cotton the great Gamaliel of New England , though after that fashion possibly himself was sprinkled , is now utterly and bitterly against , professing for himself and those Churches p. 88. of his way of the Church of new England , that they know not any ground at all to allow a faithful man liberty to entitle another mans child to baptism , upon the pretence of his own promise to have an eye to his education , unlesse the child be either born in his house , or resigned to him to be brought up as his own , and then he is confident , but from no other law then that of circumcision , from which I may be as confident that males onely , and that on the eighth day , must be baptized , it may be done . Some upon the faith of the sureties or guardians , as Mr. Cotton , who from Gen. 17 12.13 . grants , but very doubtfully , and therefore whether damnably or no let him look to it ) so much liberty to a Christian Sponsor , i. e. Surety , that if a stranger , or a very wicked man should give him his child from his infancy , to be brought up as his own , it may be baptized as his own , in confutation of which I le quote no Author but Mr. Cotton , who in that same 88. page , where he speaks this ; but two or three lines above it saies thus , The Covenant is not intailed to Sureties , i. e. to such for whom they undertake , but this is the utmost bounds of liberty Mr. Cotton saies he can give , and I wonder who gave him power to give so much in this case , he allowes a little bit and no more , because he is not sure he may allow that , but ( by his leave ) from that inch I le take an ell , for if a wicked mans child may be baptized , then it may , and then why not a 100 as well as one , in the like case ? and so at least the promise is not entailed to faithful parents only , and their seed , yea his grant p. 88. intailes baptism to the children that have believing Guardians , as well as to such as have believing parents , and so he gives the question , as stated concerning believers children only . Some again put it on the score of neither the childs , nor the parents , nor the sponsors faith , but at least either the fathers , or the Mothers membership in a gathered Church , so as if this be not the parents , though otherwise never so faithful may not have their children baptized : thus the Churches in New England , yea and I think all of this indifferent semi-demi-Independent way , both in Old England , and New , and elsewhere , witness Mr. Best Churches plea p. 60 , 61. who saith thus , A man must not only be a Christian , and by profession , within the covenant only , but also a member of some visible Church , and particular congregation ●re his child be baptized . For which Mr. Rutherford rounds him about again , and takes him to do , p. 174.175 ▪ of his Presb. and flatly contradicts him thus , saying , Baptism is a priviledge of the Church , not of such a particular Independent Church , and the distinction between Christian communion , and Church communion in this point is needless , and fruit●ess , for none are to be refused baptism whose parents professe the faith , &c. howbeit not members of a settled Church . Which also contradicts Mr. Cobbets Castle of come down , whose whole structure is settled upon that same dainty distinction of Church choice , and true choice ; of this mind also was my beloved friend Mr. Charles Nicolls , of whom I have more hopes yet then I have of every one of his own form , that he will fully own the truth in time , forasmuch as he doth more fully appear for it , against that Truth-destroying thing called Tythes , then those of his way do in other parts of Kent , who either per se , or at least per ali●s take them , not to say rake and rack both Christs flocks . and the parish flocks also for them still : which Mr. Nicolls preaching publiquely at Dover in my hea●ing Ian. 1650. ( whether he fetch his doctrine out of Mr. Cobbets book yea or no I cannot tell , in page 17. whereof the same is found ) declared himself to be of Mr. Cobbets mind by the delivery of this doctrine , viz. Tha● an enchurcht believers natural seed is faederally holy from 1 Cor. 7.14 . which position I have also since seen under his hands , so narrow a corner is the ease crouded into now , that it is not the believing , but the enchurcht belieuing parent , i , e. who , leaving the perochiall posture , betakes himself to membership in some seperated society , who sanctifies the unbelieving parent and the seed , else were the children unclean , but now are they holy , i. e. from the time of one or both parents entering the borders of a seperated society : and so by this means if an old man or woman that hath ten or twenty children , the youngest whereof is no less then twenty years old , they all though never so morally wicked , yet from thenceforth are faederally holy , but not before , no though their parents believed before . Upon this Account the Churches in New England deny their Nullity sprinkling to infants of such parents , as are either not yet joined to them , or ( for which they are very oddly also at odds among themselves ) excommunicate from them : in justification of which Gambole , Mr. Cotton lapps himself up in such a manglement of discourse p. 81. to the 88. as betokens , that wisdome is perishing from the wise for mans tradition sake , which they hold up against Christs institutions : yea he sticks not to assert p. 81. Th●t the Apostles and Evangelists gathered men whom they baptized , into a visible church estate before they baptized them , unless they were church-members before they preached to them . Which is as if he should say they brought them first into the visible Church , that they might be baptized , and then ( to go round again ) baptized them that they might be brought into the visible Church , for unlesse he contradict all those thousands of Old England ( now becoming New , whilest New England growes old ) who after sprinkling still used this phrase , viz. We receive this child into the congregation of Christs flock , as in the English refined Masse-book the Priests universally did , preaching baptism to be the entrance into the visible Church , not in word only but in deed also , by placing their Fonts at the Church doors , unless I say he be contrary to all Paedobaptists , who hold baptism to be the way into the Church , and not the visible Church the way into baptism ( and then what another cross whet doth he wipe them with ) we must needs take Mr. Cotton in that manner , and yet to say the truth the Clergy is cross eno●gh to themselves in this case , for this is but like that of them that say , believers infants are born in the bosome or within the pale of the Church , and so must be baptized , and must be baptized , and so enter within the pale of the visible Church , or else they are out , and in no better condition than the children of Turks and Pagans . What prety Gim-cracks are here ? yet surely not much above the tyth of those round abouts , and contradictions to themselves , and one another that are to be found among the Paedorantists , should I stand upon a full discovery of them , but verily I am weary to see Old England , New England , and Scotland all together by the ears about their infants sprinkling , and had rather if it were possible gain them all to be at peace in that point by laying down their dispensing it any more to infants ; and pitching all upon the undoubted subject of true baptism i. e. a professed believer , without which it is impossible to reconcile them till they have routed each other , and stormed themselves out of their strongest garrisons with their own hands . Among whom ( and so to make an end ) what hold , and keep is there likewise about the sprinkling of basta●ds , may be seen by Mr. Cotton page 88. of his way , &c. Some and those the best Divines holding the baptism of Bastards , but not sine sponsoribus , i. e. not without witnesses or sureties . Others holding it without witnesses ( for ought I find ) of which sort is Mr. Cobbet , who brings in Bastards to baptism by a certain fetch beyond his fellowes , viz. the faederal interest of those bastard infants that are born in the Church , saying , Though the parents faith do not sanctify such , yet the force of Abrahams covenant fetches them in ; which I much marvel at sith the law , or covenant of Circumcision admitteth not such into the Congregation unto the tenth generation . Others again denying that the Scripture warrants any such thing at all ; as the admitting of Bastards to come by baptism into the Congregation , as his neighbour Mr. Cotton , who gives liberty to Christian Sponsors to entitle wicked mens children to baptism by their undertaking for them , yet can scarce find in his heart ( for ought I find ) to allow them the like to entitle a bastard , alledging out of Deut. 23.2 . that in the old Testament a Bastard was not to enter into the congregation of the Lord unto the 10 th generation ( and so indeed he was not upon any terms for ought I see , whether the parents repentance or the childs good behaviour when at years , after once that particular statute was delivered ) yet takes upon him to deviate from his old Testament Rule so far himself , as to admit such a one into the congregation , and to baptism , either when the parents repent , notwithstanding his bastardy , or when the child professes better in his own person , p. 87.88 . By which kind of often interfearing of so able a man as Mr. Cotton , I perceive and therefore believe , believe and therefore speak it , that the nearer men come from Rome towards reformation , if they come not to the perfection of it according to the word , the more miserably a great deal are they bewildred with any human tradition , that is remaining among them unremoved , in so much that the Papacy is lesse troubled with contradictions , quarrels , quirks and foolish quiddities about their infants sprinkling , then Praelacy , Praelacy then Presbytery , Presbytery then Independency : for though they hold none but believers , and that all those are to be baptized , yet the Pope carries it clearly to all infants born in his Christendem without streining , these being all believers with him , as in opposition to Turks . The Prelate to the infants of Protestants onely , that are his believers , in opposition to Papists . But the High-Presbyter to the infants of protestants universally , though with him not 10 of 100 in his parish are believers , when they administer the supper . The Independent to none but the infants of those that are inchurch● with him , though himself believes there are 1000s of believers that are not of his way : those I say that are most reformed in other things , are more muddled , and lesse capable to maintain that popish practise of infant-sprinkling , then those that are deformed in all other parts of outward order besides it , and as they stand in the narrowest streit to hold it up , so are they for the most part at the nearest step to lay it down , not a few discovering dayly more and more the absurdity , and unsuitablenesse of it to so pure a posture as they pretend to , and [ quod fieri non debuit factum valet ] availing more to the keeping off many from the true way of baptism , then any arguments they have , whereby to satisfie themselves in the sufficiency of that way of sprinkling . Thus we see what a laborinth you Clergy-men would lead poor creatures into , if they should follow you , yea I know not how a man can follow you , unlesse he go nine wayes at once , such Noniformity there is among you , some saying this , and some that , and some you wot not well what your selves . What pretty Checker work is there in your judgements about one and the same thing ? wherein you would be unanimous and uniform if you would return all unto the truth . O how doth Babell come tumbling down by this Division of tongues , even as when theeves fall out , true men come to their goods , even so su●ely will the true Church come at last to the understanding of this truth , even that no infants at all are to be sprinkled , when they shall see what a do there is about it among divines , and how they would hold it if they could tell how , and say something for it if they could tell what : the disputers and scribes will scuffle one with another till their poor people , not knowing which to follow , will at last betake themselves to leave them all , and follow Christ. What Sirs is the Gospel , the plain simple gospel , such a maeander as this ? is Christ thus divided ? were Paul , Peter , and Barnabas , and Iohn , and the rest of the Apostles and ministers , whose Successors you all say you are , but are not in very deed so intricately intangled in vain janglements about one and the same question , as you are both among and within your selves , so that your answers and Accounts for your practise hang together more conjangletine , then conjunctim ? but no marvel if the Cat winckt , when both her eyes were out ? you draw nigh to God ( O yee Priests ) with your mouth , and honor him with your lipps , but have for the most part of you removed your hearts far from him ; and your fear towards him is taught after the precepts of men , therefore are ye drunken , but not with wine , you stagger , but not with strong drink , for the Lord hath powered upon you the spirit of deep sleep , and hath closed your eyes , you Prophets , you Rulers , you Seers hath he covered ; you have disserted the truth , and are degenerated into a counterfeit kind of Baptism , that never descended from above , that hath stood now of a long time jure Ecclesiastico , but not jure Christico , and so the best of you know not how to hold it , now the truth returns from the land of her captivity , without fidling , and faining , and patching , and shifting , and such shameful ridiculous thwarting of your selves , and one another with yea and nay in your joint prosecution of one and the same cause as will , if you reform not in time , object as much to the Ha ▪ Ha-He of that part of the Christian world , that yet wonders after you of the protestant Clergy , as other popish toies have done the Papacy to the Papè of such as once wondered after them ; give over therefore your dabling of infants faces , and baptize believers by profession , cast away all your wood , hay ; and stubble , which cannot endure the trial by the light of that day , that is now approaching , and begin the Gospel again as it was in the beginning , is now , and ever shall be ( in this world ) world without end , Amen . Thus Sirs ( saving your vain boasting what innumerable Arguments , and such through furniture from Scripture , from reason , from the Churches , and Fathers Authority , from more modern Authors , amongst whom you mention Calvin , Vrsin , Dr. Featley ) I have shewed that Scriptures are against you , that Reason is against you , that the Primitive Church and Fathers are against you , that the immediately sub-primitive Church and Fathers are against you , that the praepostern-Church and Fathers are ( though some against you , some for you ) so little to be regarded in their testimonies , in respect of the Superstition of their times , that if they were all wholly for you they prove nothing de jure ( as nei●her do the testimonies of the more antient Fathers by Mr. Marshalls and Mr. Blakes confession ) that though the Clergy , and all Christendome , Pope , Civil powers , and people have been so fully for you for ages together , as that they have persecuted all that have been against you , yet this shewes the badness of your cause by the bloudiness of it , and so makes more against then for you ; that two of those three Authors of your own alledging are as much for you , as men can be that are opposite to you , for they ( as ignorantly as your selves ) own your practise , though they disown , and overturn one or two of the prime pillars , and grounds you practice from : that the third , viz. Dr. Fea●ley , is killed as dead as a door-nayle by Mr. Den , and that your selves , and the other sticklers that still stand up in your cause , are so miserably imbroiled in civil wars , divisions , diversities of design to bring about the same thing , contradictions , clashings , Ayes , and Noes among your selves , that you can never make an handsome head against the truth , till your matters hang more harmoniously together : so that nought remaines in which you can hope , ( unlesse your self excusing , quarter crying Epistle to the Reader , which is also answered , can stead you ) but your forlom hope of these three following Arguments , which are more then half laid sprawling already , and that tottered troop , and ragged Regiment of Scufflers against Reason , and that Scare-crow that comes up in the Rear of the Review , and that Patheticall summons of all the Pastors to come in , and succour you , and oppose the growth of Anabaptism , by preaching what they can against those Hereticks the Anabaptists , but disputing no more with them , because the effects of disputing with them are dangerous . All which by then I have dispatch a little more dispute with , whether I shall be more weary of writing or you of reading this , as I know not well , so it matters not much , I shall its like give over then however . First then to the first of your three Arguments that ensue . Review . The First is taken from the universall practise of the Church of God , which the Adversaries would not hear of at the Disputation . The grounds of it are expresse texts of Scripture , Mat. 28.20 . Lo I am with you alway to the end of the world . Iohn 14.16 . The Comforter shall abide with you for ever . ver . 17. The spirit of truth . ver . 26. Who shall teach you all things , and bring all things to your remembrance which I have told you . Iohn . 16.13 . He will lead you into all truth : The Argument is this . To hold that Christs promise is not true , is damnable blasphemy : But to hold that the universall Church hath erred in so necessary a matter as baptism , and that for so many hundred years , is to hold that Christs promise is not true , his promise of being with his Church , of guiding it by the spirit into all truth . Ergo , To hold the Vniversall Church hath so erred is damnable blasphemy . If the Anabaptists object , That the Church of Rome useth this Argument for her traditions ; The Answer is , That those traditions which she pleads for were neither universal nor doctrinal , as this of baptism , and therefore the exception against her was just , and those errors which she defends by that , were denyed to be of the universall Church : But the Anabaptists can never prove , that this practise hath not been universall , or dare not say , that this matter is not doctrinal . Re-Review . This Argument is so far from having any substance , and weight in it toward the demonstration of the truth of infant-baptism , that it is not so much as a Topicall syllo gism , but meerly Sophisticall , so that any that are never so little learned in Logick may discern it to be the fallacy called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or Ignoratio Elenchi , in which is proved aliud a quaesito , i. e. quite another thing then that which is by us denyed , in which Illud infertur , ut contradictorium negato , quod revera non con●radicit : it doth not at all conclude the point in question : for that you are to prove is not that it is damnable blasphemy to hold that the universal Church hath erred in baptism , but that to deny infant-baptism is damnable blasphemy , toward the direct and legitimate illustration of which bold charge , wherewith you assault us , viz. that our denyall of infant-baptism is damnable blasphemy , you ought of right to have made this pro-Syllogism , viz. To hold the universall Church hath erred in so necessary a matter as baptism is damnable blasphemy . But to deny the lawfulness of infant-baptism is to hold that the universall Church hath erred in that matter of baptism . Ergo , To deny infant-baptism is damnable blasphemy . The Major of which pro-syllogism we do not put you to the trouble of proving , neither do we hold any such thing that the universall Church hath erred in baptism , any more then you , for the primitive Church did not erre in it , though you do ; yet how do you belabour your selves here to prove what we deny not ? But the Minor of that pro-syllogism , which we do deny , as being indeed in it self most peccant , and apparently false , ( for to hold infant-baptism to be an Error is not to conclude the universal Church to have erred , for the universall Church hath not held it ) the prove of this you evade , and most serpentinely slide away from , never medling with it at all , unto a business you might as well have spared your pains in , and fall a Syllogizing upon us in the self same sophisticall way as Rome doth for her Popes Supremacy , and all other her traditions , for thus say they indeed when they summon us back again to their fopperies sub paena damnabilis blasphemiae viz. To hold Christ promise is not true is damnable blasphemy . But to hold that the universall Church hath erred is to hold Christs promise not true . Ergo , to hold the universal Church hath erred is damnable blasphemy . So for the Popes Supremacy thus . That which is above all the members hath Supreme authority over them all . But the head of the Church is above all the members . Ergo the head of the Church hath Supreme authority over all . Which Syllogisms are both fallacious per ignorationem Elenchi , for in this last there 's concluded what is not questioned , for the question is not whether the head of the Church have supremacy over all or no ? for none denies but that it hath , but whether the Pope be at all that head ? that is it which we deny , and they take perforce for granted from us before we have yielded it , or themselves proved it , and so proceed to have more mischief by it : so again in the first the question is not whether the universal Church hath erred or no ? but whether Rome be that universal Church or no that cannot erre ? or whether those traditions she practises , ( among which infant baptism is said to be one by Cardinal Bellarmine , and is taken by Mr. Rogers to be the most reverent ) have bin universally practised or no ? which we deny that they were , for the first Gospel Church knew none of them , and so they are not universall : which Romish Sillygisms the best Logicians among the Protestants are so far from answering so formally , as you strive to do to the first of them in this place , that they rather explode them as Silly and Sophisticall , and so must I do yours , which is not onely Istius-modi , but in terminis the very same with the first of theirs . Therefore good Sirs fall back a little , and begin again , and make a prosyllogism or two if you please , before this Syllogism takes its turn , and do not beat the air , and let flie such hot bullets , as accusations of damnable blasphemy , before you have any adversary appearing against you : for verily you first falsely suppose us your opposites in that , wherein we agree with you , and bestir your selves to fight us in such a fierce fashion , as if you would fright us out of our cause before you come neer us , and set your selves to prove that , which whoever doth yet , I for my part do not deny ; for verily t is the minor , and not the major in the Prosyllogism , which we quarrel with , and as for this Syllogism of yours , I honour it not ●o farre as to own it : neverthelesse if it be lawful to make a formal answer to an unlawful argument , and least you take it ill , and think much on 't if I sleight it so as to give no other reply then that above , I le make bold to answer it now it s brought by you for infant-baptism , as you do when the same is brought by Rome for other traditions viz. that this tradition you plead for is not universally practised : therefore taking your words in a true sense , and in their largest latitude , though I dare not be so damable in my doctrine as you viz. to bring every one under blame of damable blasphemy who holds a possibility of error to befall the universal Church i. e. the whole state of Christs Church , which is but imperfect here on Earth , yet can I not say , nor do I that in esse actuali the universal Church hath erred in the practise of this point of baptism , so as that she hath been totally diserted by the spirit of God , and that Christ hath not made good his promise to her any more then your selves : yea really if you use the word [ universal Church ] in its due and proper extent viz. in respect of both time and place , and in the like latitude , in which Dr. Featley ( from whom you borrowed this argument and some of the rest , and might as well have sent us to him for it , as troubled your selves to hold it out here in a new harnesse ) uses the word [ universal Church ] as expressing All the assemblies of Christians in the world , that ever were from the Apostles dayes to this present , which he stiles the formal Church , this universal Church cannot be impeached with error in the point of infant-baptism , for it hath not universally owned it , neither was it in use from the beginning , there have bin some ages and places wherein the Churches practised baptism so agreeably to Christs will , that you shall never be shent by him as failing in that point if you do it no otherwise then it was done then and there viz. the dayes and places wherein the primitive Churches dispenst it , for they were all so wholly strangers to your infant baptism , that not so much as the sound of such a thing was ever heard among them : and howbeit Dr. Fea●le , tells us a tale p. 16. out of Origen on the Romans ( whose originall is lost , and into which work of his on the Romans t is shrewdly suspected by the learned , that Ruffinus , and the Romans have Sophisticated such a sentence , that the Church had infant-baptism from the Apostles ) and thence very goodly grounds . A positive argument of very great moment ( saith he ) that may convince the conscience of any ingenuous Christian , viz. that the Apostles in their dayes began to baptize infants , and the whole Catholique Christian Church in all places and ages , even from the Apostles dayes , hath admitted the children of Christian parents to holy baptism , therefore t is no error . Yet I must tell you that Origens bare word , and single say so ( if it were his own ) is no warrant , whereupon all men may safely , muchlesse must necessarily believe it was so : but the word of the New Testament , of which the Apostles mostly were the Pen-men , is warrant enough to us to believe that it was not so , were the word onely silent about it , how much more whilest it hath so much against it , that we may say t is exclusive of it ; Howbeit therefore you say that infant baptism hath been universall , it is sufficient proof of its non universallity in that you can never prove that it hath been universall , and we have proved that in the Apostles dayes it was not so , that in the first Century t was not so , nor in the second for ought any man living can possibly shew , how ere it began to creep in about the third , and howbeit it hath been never so universally and erroneously practised from the fourth or fifth Centuries till now , yet neither will it follow that the universall Church hath practised it , nor that the universal Church hath erred in it , nor that Christs promise Mat. 28.20 . Ioh. 16.13.14.16.17.29 . concerning the spirits abode and guidance is not true , for that 's not more made , then made good to those that perform the condition and terms , on which it was made viz. the observation of what he commanded , in which case the spirit is ever present , and ever was and shall be with those few that keep the truth ; as for the most , when they began to dote on mens teachings and traditions , and to fashion themselves more at a venture after the words of the wise and prudent , then after the word of God it self , and to Idolize the dictates of Synods , and Ghostly fathers , so as blindly to subject themselves to their sentences , as their onely Oracles , then Terras Astraea reliquit , Christ who did ingage to lead them by his spirit , who would be led by it , was dis-ingaged , and true enough in his promises , though he left the world to lie in darknesse , and to be filled with their own wayes , and with the fruits of their own inventions . Moreover t was not the Church , in the capacity of a Church in respect of outward form and order , but his disciples to whom that promise was made , to whom also it was performed , and made good in all ages according , and in such measure as they kept close to him , for in the time of the treading down of the Temple and holy City , and the true worship and worshippers , and of all that visible fabrick and Church posture which stood in the primitive times , and even in the grossest darknesse , God gave power to his two witnesses i. e. by his word , and spirit in the hearts and mouths of his Saints , impowered them to prophesie and testifie to the truth against the traditions of Rome , and against infant baptism as well as other of her superstitions , and heresies , how else could Bernard have said ( as he doth Serm. 65. super cant : ) of some that opposed the corruptions of his time , They laugh at us because we baptize infants , because we pray for the dead , and require the prayers of Saints : yet even to those Martyrs that did witnesse to some truth in times of Ignorance , the light was ( though not so totally and terribly , as to the rest of the world ) much ecclipsed ore now it is , and that promised manifestative presence of Christ not a little interdicted , and communion with him interrupted by the interposition of that smoak , which comming out of the bottomless pit clouded the sun , and thickned the aire , and as Christ himself foretold also it should be , Iohn 14.30 . by the intervening , of the Prince of the darkness of this world , who was to have his time , wherein to darken all things , and had it too , so that by his delusive wiles the whole world was won to be once an Arrian , and after that an Antichristian , worshipping the Dragon and the Beast , wondering and erring all together into one Catholique Church-body called Christendome , and by common consent bearing the whore , or false Ministery , called Clergy , warring at her will against the Saints , and though not finally ( for so the gates of hell cannot ) yet or along time prevailing against them that dwell in heaven , Rev. 13.4 , 5 , 6 , 7. In all which time nevertheless ( as I said before ) some truths were revealed to some , and so much to such as then sought to Christ , and not to men , as may well serve to verify Christs words , and justify all the promises of his presence with his people , as to the true purport of them , as yea and Amen . Babist . But where was your Church then all this while till these latter times ? Baptist. Where it was to be according to the word of prophecy , Rev. 11.1 . viz. troden underfoot , for 1260 years by the nominall Christians , or Gentiles coming by the lump into the outer Court , i. e. into a bare name , and feigned form of Christianity after the time of Constantine , at the compulsive call of the Clergy ; since when though there have been an number of Saints in sackcloth , that have seen much light from Christ , and suffered for it , yet I am so far from undertaking to prove there was , that I am rather of the mind there was not , nor was to be ( if the word be true ) any truly collected , truly constituted visible Churches at all in right outward form , and order , standing upon that true foundation , i. e. the principles of the Doctrine of Christ , and the primitive prophets and Apostles , for many ages upwards ; even from the Clergies carrying the Church captive into Babylon unto these daies , wherin the foundation ( Heb. 6.1.2 . with Eph. 2.20.21.22 . ) which hath been razed is laid again , and the measuring line gone forth upon the Temple , is in the hands of the true Zerubbabel , Christ Iesus , who shall also finish it , not by Army , nor by strength , but by my spirit saith the Lord of Hosts . If this answer be not satisfactory that our Churches are true ones , unless I can prove a lineal succession of them from the Apostles times to these , let me see what lineal succession is of your Churches from the Apostles daies , if I ask you Praelatick Priests ( as the Masse Priests do ) where was your Church before Luther ? and you Presbyterians where was your Church before Calvin ? in both whose daies you cannot deny , but that of those that denyed infant-baptism there were abundance ; must you not needs see both your Churches swallowed up in the Sea of Rome , and for ages and generations together , making one with that ? were not the two little heads of the Roman Eagle spoken of 2 Esdras 11.12 . which are the two smaller kingdomes of the Clergy , i. e. Prelacy , and Presbytery , making one head with the great one , i. e. the Popedome , till of late they separated from him . First sure I am you may labour till you are weary , and look till your eyes fail before you find a series of visible protestant Churches before Luther , and as universal as you Protestant priesthood do proclaim your selves , and your Church to have been , yet I tell you t will puzzle you to derive your pedigree from the Apostles , if the Pope put you to prove it by induction , and ennumeration of Churches , succeeding without interruption , unless you will own him to be your father , as to your Clericall function you are fain to do . Whereupon in the book stiled Luthers predecessors , or an answer to the question of the Papists ; viz. Where was your Church before Luther ? p. 3.4 . I find it ingenuously acknowledged by the nameless Author thereof , in his undertaking to answer that question , That if the Papistry the Protestant to assign any visible constituted Church , which might have been known by the distinction , and succession of Bishops , Elders , Deacons , &c. the task is unequal , and that records of such a thing are wanting , insomuch that he puts it off in replying to the Papists , thus . That they cannot prove that the Church must alwaies be in such manner visible : that in Elias time there were 7000 unknown to him , much more to Ahab : that in Christs passion some papists say the Church was in Mary , the Church being like the Moon , allwaies lasting , yet not alwaies in the full . And then in resolution to the quaere it self alledges not any one protestant Church at all , but onely here and there a Protestant professor , as Wickliff , and such mostly as were after him inlightned by his Doctrine , and did suffer for giving testimony thereto : so the Iesuitish question is thus answered . I find it also thereupon the file , that in a conference which was once held upon the same question by Dr. White , and Dr. Featley against two others , viz. Fisher , and Sweet , Dr. Featley chose rather to prove a continual succession of protestants by the truth of their doctrine , then the truth of the Protestant Churches and doctrine by a perpetuity of succession ; and so doth that Author himself who ever it was , that wrote the answer to that papistical question , as well aware that protestant Churches cannot prove themselves true by succession p. 1.2 . What saith he if we could not prove that the English Church was before Luther , Must it needs follow that the doctrine we hold is untrue ? or shall the doctrine of Rome be ever the truer because of Antiquitie only ? No certainly , And why not ? because the Church must be proved and allowed by the doctrine , and not the Doctrine authorized by the Church , which the Papists ( a people wise in their generation ) well knowing have overturned the course of Nature , and will have the Scripture , and all doctrine to hang upon the determination of the Church , hoping that if once they have amazed any one with the name of the Church , and driven him from title and interest in the Church before Luthers time , they shall easily call in question the whole frame of the doctrine of the reformed Churches . So that we see the Protestants are fain to fence off the papists arguments from universality , Antiquity , perpetuity , in which Rome outstrips the reformed Churches , with pleading only the verity of their doctrine , and its being persecuted in some few professors of it before Luther . Yea verily if universality , perpetuity , or antiquity either ( I mean that post primitive Antiquity of the fourth or fifth Century ) may pass for president more current then the primitive , the Pope and his priesthood may prove the protestant priesthood to be but upstart Novices to them by this way of arguing from the antient , perpetual , universal practise of their Church . I write not this as taking the Papists part against the Protestants , for so far am I from justifying the Iesuites , that I rather fight with Dr. Featley , and his friend against them in this case , holding with them that no succession of true visible , and rightly constituted Churches can be shewn of either your way , or ours in all that time of popish unity , and universallity , but I do it to this end onely , ut hos suo Iugulensus gladio ( as Dr. Featley saies of us p. 88. ) that I may fight against Featleys followers in the point of infants baptism with Featleys own Fauchin i. e. sa●isfie them concerning the narrownesse , novelty , and invisibility of our Church in times of popery , when they say , where was our Church before Nicholas Stock ? the very same way and no other then that , wherin they excuse the non-appearance of their Protestan●s Churches then to the Iesuits , when vaunting in their own visible universallity they ask , them where was your Church before Luther ? for verily if it must be taken from you by the Papists , as evidence good enough that your Churches are the true Churches , and lineally descended from Christ , though none of them ever visibly appeared before Luther , in all that time of the Popes Peterdome ore his fellows , because your doctrine is truer then that of theirs , and specially since several witnesses successively held it out against Romes contradictions , then I hope it shall be taken from us by you Protestants as good evidence that our Churches are yet truer then yours , and such as have been as much as yours have been in visible constitution from the time of the treading down till this modern resurrection , because our doctrine and practise is that of the primitive and purest times , specially since we can evince it as clearly , that many witnessed the truth of it against infant-baptism , in times of priestly tyranny , as you can that any have witnessed yours at all . For howbeit you say your infants baptism was not so much as questioned , till of late , if you had your wits so well about you as you should , you could not but see that t was almost ever opposed : for though it were never heard of in the first Century , yet that it hath been ever withstood since it came up , is most evident by the conflicts of corrupt times for it , for what made such controversies among the fathers about it ? what m●de Cyprian and his 66 Bishops conven'd in councel , lay their heads together to find ou● such superstitious stuff ( as your selves are ashamed of ) wherewith to support it ? what made Bernard complain that t was laught at among other ridiculosities as praying to , and for the dead ? what made Imperiall lawes , and Synodical cannons enjoin it under such strict penalties ? what made Pope Innocent 3. who together with the 600 Bishops , and all the rest of the Clergy , which in the councel of Lateran determined Transubstantiation , confession , were called fooles and block-heads , seducers of the people , hereticks and blaspemers by Iohn Purvey one of Wickliffs followers p. 17. of Luth. praedec . what ( I say ) made that Innocent among other things decree so strictly , as he did , that the baptism of believers infants should succeed circumcision , if that tradition found no Traitors which sought the death on t , and if the risers up against it were hardly heard of before Luther Either then the verity of doctrine in Churches , reformed from Romes downright dotage , doth prove as Dr. Featley sayes well it doth , a perpetual duration of it , so that it must needs have professors in all ages , or it proves it not : if not , then the main argument whereby Dr. Featley defends Protestanism , to have been perpetually before Luther , doth not vindicate you in your Religion from the name of Novellists any more then us , and so the Pope by his plea for the verity of his Church from perpetuall visibility , universality &c. carries the cause clean from us all ; but if it doth , then as we deny your infant-baptism to have been perpetuall , because its false doctrine , and our Church and way of baptism we hold in contradistinction to you , being as consonant to the word and primitive pattern as the truest of those doctrines you hold in contradistinction to the Pope , is vindicated by Featleys own argument ▪ to have been as perpetually before Luther , as the purest piece of Protestanism , and party of Protestants whatsoever . Again , an ennumeration of a successive number of particular persons barely professing the truth in the times of all Christendoms erring from it , but not visibly constituted into any right Church form or order , either doth prove Christ and his spirit to have been with his people alwayes , and in all ages according to his promise and consequently his promise in that particular to be true , notwithstanding the wo●●ds so universal erring for a time , or else it doth not prove it : if such an ennumerarion of single professors successively witnessing to the truth against Romish error doth not clear Christs promise to be true , then your selves are as justly charged by the Iesuites , who use the same argument against you , that you use against us , to be guilty of that damnable blasphemy of den●ing Christs promise to be true , as we are charged to be guilty of it by your selves , for as much as all that you say towards the salving of Christs promise of his perpetual presence with your Church , while he left Rome , from fault of falshood , is but an induction of certain persons , that before Luther testified to your doctrine ; yea he that answers the Iesuites question sayes no more , confessing that a succession of Protestant Churches cannot be shewed ; but if it doth prove Christ his promise to be true , then I hope it serves to prove it in our case as well as yours , or else it s a hard case indeed , forasmuch as though a perpetual succession of such visible Churches as ours are , is not to be shewed through all ages of the Clergies crushing down the truth , yet we can give as full evidence of a sort of single Saints , that testified against infant-baptism , even in those times , as you can of such as testified against any other popish tradition whatsoever . By this time you may see the fore-man in your for-lorn hope , that is sent before as a subtil scout in a sophistical coat , to entrap us , is not onely discovered in his drift , but divested also of his deceitful dresse , disarmed and disabled from your service , and laid a bleeding : neverthelesse sith he opens his mouth , and prates against us still with malicious words , falsely charg●ng us again , and bespattering us what he can with his tongue , because he sees he cannot hurt us with his teeth , we shall be constrained to lend him one or two blowes more toward the dispatching of him out of the way , and then we shall be ready to meet with the force that follows . Review . And indeed they do conclude the whole Church of God to have erred most fearfully , in one of the most necessary points of religion , as if she had been totally deserted by the spirit of God , and Christ had not made good his promise . Re-Review . First I observe that , when ever it seems best to serve your turn so to do , you stile baptism so necessary a matter , one of the most necessary points of Religion , about the administration of which to erre is most fearfully to erre , lit●le lesse then downright damnable : otherwhile again , as when you would modifie mens spirits towards your proceeding in infant baptism from proceeding so eagerly against that practise , in case it should prove to be the error , and ours the truth , then you speak as diminutively of it as may be , as if it were a matter which it matters not so much whether it be done your way or ours , in childhood or at years , by dipping or sprinkling , so it be done , an error which is not worth so much ado and striving to reprove and rectifie as the Anabaptists make , of such indifferency , that t is not fit , sith t is now the custome , that the peace of the Church should be disturbed about it , as if this truth of the Church , though troden down , must not have an hand lent it to help it up again , for fear of displeasing and awaking the Church from her sweet sleep of superstitious security till she pleases , not so fundamental a defection which hand soever it lies , but that it may be left ad libitum , dispensed ad placitum , so that such as will have their infants sprinkled may , and such as will not or cannot be satisfied that is the true baptism , may chuse , and be baptized themselves if they please or not at all if they please , and yet not be disowned so far one by another , but that they may ( notwithstanding different judgements in so fiddling a thing as that is ) fall together ( but it will be by the ears sure at last ) into one fellowship ; and I know not how much such prety prate doth passe from your partie sometimes , to lull us in as it were to wink at small faults , and to make no noise about such a petty matter , if infants baptism should be ( as many Priests know it is , e. g. Dr. Gouge , yet know it not ) no more then a meer Tradition of men , At Pater ut gnati sic nos debemus amici , Si quod sit vittum , non fastidire . — What a deal of Patheticall , Popisticall perswasion to this purpose as to pacify peoples spirits towards your errors in small points , passes from you p. 26 , 27. of your paper , viz. to avoid a querulous conscience , misliking , finding fault , complaining , taking offence at every thing where there is no cause , streining at a gnat , giving over the company of the flock [ of more goats then sheep ] for every rub [ alias refusing to reform [ seperating from the congregation [ alias the parish church of the Popes congendring ] for a ceremony [ alias some small thing , which to synodical prudence it hath seemed good to add to the ordinances , of Christ , as if his wisdome had not made things full , and fine enough e. g. the surplice , the forced gesture of kneeling before the railes and Altar , yoking of sheep and swine together in the Supper , and in baptism the crosse , the form of sl●tting two or three drops of water with wet fingers on the face , instead of dipping and orewhelming , and this too but to an infant instead of a professed believer , by which ceremonious quirks , they brought in not so much alterationem , as alterum , and ceremonized the whole substance of what Christ required quite away ] to endeavour after a true temper of a son of the church , humbly to submit to the judgements of others sooner then our own [ alias to see through the Priests eyes , and say we see it not what ever we see to the contrary ] not to dare to contend with any much lesse Superiors [ alias Popes , Counsels , whole Classes of Clergy men , for they will bite Mic. 3.5 . ] without strong and evident and convincing reason for our assertions [ which if we have not for our baptism against yours , never men had in any controversy since truths resurrection from under the pawes of the Pope , and Priesthood to this day ] not to see things amisse [ alias go on hoodwinkt with implicit faith ] if we cannot but see things amisse , to hide and cover them , specially the nakednesse of our father , and shame of our Mother [ alias the Pope , and Clergy out of whose loines , and the Catholique Christendome , in whose womb almost all error is ingendred , least if their spiritual fornications should be rendred too discernable , reformation should prove too desirable , and that too destroyable to their enjoyments ] not to let a light matter [ alias so light ahd vain a thing as the vanity of infant-baptism ] work dislike in us , much lesse departure and divorce , not to depart by seperation save in case of a great and unfufferable crime [ alias some worse and more fearful error , then can well be about the dispensation of baptism ] of which there 's dispair of redresse , which was the Protestan●s case with the Church of Rome [ and our case also with the Protestant nations , in which though we reprove them roundly for it , as well as declare against it , we see little forwardnesse to forbear their infant-sprinkling ] which by your leave gentlemen , for all your soothing , and smoothing , and smothering over the thing as no great one , if it be one , sometimes for your own ends , yet , to take you at your own words in this place , is little lesse than an unsufferable crime , and a business in which to erre is most fearfully ro erre in one of the most necessary points of religion , and either betokens a totall desertion by the spirit of God , or else you shew your selves but ignorant men in speaking so of it , and that is the very truth of it indeed , for though an error about the subject , and essential form of baptism be at no hand to be set so light by , as t is by you when you see men resolved to depart from your societies in case of your refusal to reform that double error , which in that point remaines yet among you , while you Rantize infants , yet neither is it to be so mightily magnified , and made such a hydeous , such a fundamental , such a dangerous , such a damnable error , ( unlesse persevered in willfully against light or conscience , and then a smaller matter then that may prove of sad consequence to any soul ) is as inconsistent with all possibility of their salvation , that in times of ignorance did happen to hold it , or puts all such persons under an absolute impossibility of having any thing of the spirit of God in them , as , meerly by reason of non discovery of it , do go astray by it , as ( to go round again ) you who care not which extream you run out into , when you suppose your own turn against us to be served by it , do seem to make and magnifie it in this place . Neverthelesse ( as I said once above ) as much as you sleight it other while , and Mr. Baxter also , who spends a pair of pages viz. 10.11 . to shew how little stress God laies upon this point , making it ( as the non-Churc●●rs usually do , upon whose principles how neer he borders , some see better then himself , though he yet own the use of ordinances ) as it were a low , small matter , a piece of ceremon● and letter , which God will dispense with , saying circumcision is nothing i. e. ( in su●o sensu ) not much material , whether baptized or not a small part of the ministers work , which Paul left to others to dispense as belonging not much to him to administer , who was sent to preach , ( a●d yet I believe if we say ( as indeed we do ) that there 's no such need that the dispensation it self be done by the hands of one , that is specially sent to preach , and in holy orders , Mr. Baxter will either be against us , or else against all his brethren of the Clergy ( who will have none to baptize but such as are sent to preach ) as much I say as you and Mr. Baxter sleight it , and as little fundamental as you make it , yet I must tell you in Mr. Baxters words , and your own too , that Christs commands are to be obeyed by us , great and small , as far as we know them , and so necessary a point of Religion is this ( as to the outward part of Religion ) that howbeit Mr. Baxter p. 11. denies that outward part of baptism , or external washing to be called one of the foundations Heb. 6.2 . any otherwise then for its praecedency viz , because its first laid in order of time , not because it beareth up the building ) even that outward burying of believers in that baptism is both to be done necessitate praecepti , by special command from him Act. 2.38.10.68 . whose voice , whoever will not hear i. e. obey when heard , in all things whatever he saith , little commands as well as greater , Mat. 5.19 . shall be cut off from among his people Act. 3.22.23 . and therefore how farre forth necessary , necessitate medii , and ad salutem to life it self , so far forth as we know his will in that particular let Mr. Baxter judge . And also Secondly , is to be done in such wise and manner as he himself hath commanded , and not after mans precept and tradition , there being no lesse rejection , plague and cursing denounced against changing the ordinances , and serving God after such manner as men require , then to neglecting it altogether Isa. 24.5.6.29.13 . Mat. 15.9 . And also thirdly , is to be done first after once we do repent and believe , and that so necessarily first ( necessitate both praecepti and medii ) in order to outward membership and fellowship in the visible Church of Christ , and in order also to the true being of the visible Church in that outward right form and order , that if it be not first done , and done according to his own mind , and not mans , and first laid as a foundation among the rest of those principles Heb. 6.1 , 2. of Christs doctrine , which altogether are called the foundation i. e. to the visible Church of Christ , which is said to be built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets i. e. their doctrine , or that form of doctrine they delivered , whereof baptism in water was a part , and a principle , though not the principal part Eph. 2.22 . Rom. 6.2.3.17 . I deny that there can be any visible Church of Christ at all , truly constituted according to his own will , and such a bearer up of that building it is , tha● abstract it , and there is no building fitly framed together , nor people growing together visibly an holy Temple in the Lord , and he that in these latter dayes will ever erect that holy City and Temple which was trodden under foot by the Gentiles , advancing all into the name of the Church at the door of infant-sprinkling , must preach and practise again that true baptism of repentance for remission of sins , in the absence of which there was no true visible Church as to outward order and form at all , in their opinion as well as mine , who hold ( and so does the whole Clergy ) that baptism is the way , by which persons enter , and out of which there is no entring at all into the visible Church , in which therefore to erre is in truth such an unsufferable crime , and so fearfully to erre in one of the most necessary points of Religion ( as pertaining to visible Church order ) that except ye repent of your infant-sprinkling ( O ye Priests ) and be baptized truly according to Christs will in the name of the Lord Iesus for remission of that , and all other your sins and superstitions , your error is enough to justifie our separation from you , nor find we how we can in Christs name , and according to his will , or without violation , and palpable breach of that outward order , ( which he gives no dispensation for to us ) abide in one body , or Church fellowship with you in the supper . Secondly Sirs , though I told it you before , yet to conclude this , I now tell you again , though we deny infant baptism , yet , we do not hold at all , nor conclude thereby that the whole Church of God hath universally erred i. e. the Church of Christ in all ages and places ; and howbeit , it is tr●e ( as Dr. Featley saies p. 19 and we with him ) That particular Churches have erred , and may erre ( as the Greek Church , and the Latin Church ( the two legs upon which Mr. Marshal strives to make infant baptism stand still , because it hath stood there so long ) and general councels , which the Schooles term the representative Church , are sub●ect to error , and have sometimes ( as Dr. Featley saies , and so often say I that that I le never build my faith upon them ) decreed heresie and falshood for truth , & howbeit all christendom hath erred after the Clergy in this point , and many more for 1260 years , yet t is true ( as Dr. Featley saies ) that the formal Church ( as they speak ) i. all the assemblies in the world cannot be impeached with errour in this point of infant baptism , forasmuch as the true Churches of the first times never knew it , and many faithful witnesses that knew it to be a corruption testified against it in the darkest times , and the best reformed Churches , even no lesse then scores of Assemblies do deny it at this day , to the shame of that one general Assemblie that would have settled it . Review . And not onely so , but if Mr. Fishers doctrine which 〈◊〉 lately delivered , as a judicious gentleman affirmd , who heard him , that ●ll that did believe and were dipt should be saved ; but all that did believe and were not dipt should be damned , be true ; they as much as lies in them , damn to the pit of hell all the Matyrs , Professors , Fathers , believers for many hundreds of years together : Which onely doctrine should make all men to abhor them , and not let their soules intermeddle with their secret , whose rage is so fierce , whose wrath is so cruel , Christ shuts out onely unbelievers from heaven , whosoever believeth not shall be damned . This doctrine shuts out believers if they be not dipt , i. e. if they be not Anabaptists ; it cannot be the ceremony they are so hot for , without the substance . Re-Review . But saving the over apprehensive powers of that judicious Gentleman , who ere it was that heard me , he most grossely abuses ▪ in it himself and me , in reporting such a thing to you , as also you abuse both him and me , and the world too in reporting it as from him to the world ( yet you have done him honour so farre I confesse as to conceal his name , or else you had done him a greater spite indeed ) himself in shewing such shallowness of capacity in hearing , as scarcely calls for that worthy title of judicious Gentleman , and me in not only mistaking , but mistelling his mistake also to you , who print out his mistake to all the world : for such doctrine as this , That all that did believe , and were not dipt should be damned , did never yet fall from my mouth , nor did ere take place , or was ever owned for truth in my mind : yea howbeit I summon you , or any else to shew me in the word ( not taken by snatches , but in the whole intent , and scope of it ) Gods promise of salvation by Christ without obedience to him both in repentance , faith and baptism too , to those , of whom all these things are required , I say it again ( least you mistake me as speaking of infants , for they being capable of none of these , of them to salvation none of these are required of whom all these are required , since all those that obey not the Gospel , in what part soever of it it is manifested to them , shall be damned , 2 Thes. 1.7 , 8 , 9 — 2.10 , 11 , 12. Howbeit , I say I wish you to advise how safely you , that know it to be your duty , may neglect it , and how groundedly you can assure your selves , that you do believe at all in truth , if you receive not the love of every title of Christs truth , so as wherein it appears to you to imbrace and obey it , yet I am well assured I never utterd the other , viz. that all that did believe , and were not dipt should be damned , nor is it now , nor ever was it my judgement to this hour ; of which for the worlds and your satisfaction , sith I have been very often charged , and that twice or thrice in publique places where I have preacht , so to hold , I shall here give this brief account . I judge that all persons in the world ( meaning not infants , but such as are at years of discretion , to whom the Gospell comes in any measure ) are of some or other of these three sorts , viz. 1. Either such as neither believe at all , nor so much as in words profess so to do , Or 2. Such as in words say they believe , and indeed do not . Or 3. Such as both profess to believe , and do indeed believe as they say . Now I suppose we all hold the first sort , viz. professed prophane ones , so living so dying , will be damned , and unless we will deny the Scriptures , we must needs hold the second sort , whose professed faith is a dead faith shall not be saved , for what doth it profit if a man say he hath faith Jam. 2.14 . and have not works , &c. whereby onely faith is proved to be true indeed as it is professed , can that faith save him ? as for the third sort , viz true believers , I subdivide them in my thoughts into 2 ranks . First , such as believing in Christ truly for salvation , believe also baptism in its true way of dispensation , and not rantism , to be Christs will concerning them , and these I am certain will submit accordingly and obey him in it , for such as say they have faith , and live in rebellion to what parts of Christs will they know they ought to obey him in , have not faith to salvation what ever they say . Or Secondly , such as believing in Christ , neither see nor believe , nor practise baptism in that only true way wherin we dispense it , and all this meerly for want of meanes to discover it to them , or by means of the invincible ignorance of their times , and ages wherein they lived , and wherein , according to the will of God permitting it so to be , the mind of God in that thing hath been hid , and , as we know it hath in many more things for ages and generations together , remained undiscovered , which times of ignorance I believe God much winked at , in those who sincerely owned truth , and obeyed it so far as it then appeared , and as they saw it , though now he commands all men to return from Babylon in these daies of light , wherein men may see , but that they will not , yea many prophets , and righteous ones in the height of Popery , have desired to see , and hear what we do , or may do , yet could not , the Scriptures lying lockt up as unlawful well-nigh for any to consult with , therefore look you to it who say you do not this or that because you see it not , for I testify to you that it is a time wherein the true light shineth so cleerly , that men need not erre , if they love not darkenesse more then light because their deeds are evil . And the same measure of light and reformation and truth , which might have denominated you reformists , had you lived 100 years ago , will not serve to denominate you so now , since the smoak that darkned the sun , and the aire , is much more perfectly dispelled then in that twilight , in this form , I mean of such as could not see , not because they would not , but because it shone not , do I rank all the Martyrs , and those honest men , whom you do●e on as Fathers , and all true professors and believers for many hundreds of years together , who witnessed to truth , and suffered for it too , so far as it did appear to them in their times , to this sort of men I am more charitable and tender in my censures then you can possibly prove your selves to be , and so I am also to infants , for all your prate of pleading for them against our cruelties , neither doth any doctrine that ever I delivered damn any of these to the pit of hell , as your doctrine of so rigid , ha●sh , fierce and cruel rejection of all infants from salvation , save those of believers , doth damn an hundred to one of them , that dy in innocent infancy : and where it should be that that Gentleman told you I preacht that doctrine , That all such as believe , and yet are not dipped shall be damned I know not , but this I know , that I was ever so far from conceiving , much more expressing any such thing that where I speak in publique of that point of baptism , in prevention of that prejudice , and opinion of our harshness , which your publike balling at us bege●s in your hearers , I commonly deliver my self to the contrary . But now Sirs , as for your selves , who so falsely father this doctrine upon me as mine , and that with such abhorrency of both it , and me for it , and with such patheticall expressions of your zeal against it , as that you even set your teeth an edge as it were , and whet the spirits of all men to abhor us for it , if they had nothing in all the world against us , in point of doctrine but that , & not to let their souls intermeddle with our secrets , whose rage is so fierce , and whose wrath is so cruel , what if I go no further then your own Account of the Disputation at Ashford , to prove that your selves are the men that hold this doctrine , that though persons believe , yet if they be not baptized they must be damned , and not we ? are you not then condemned out of your own mouths to perpetual abhorring ? now therefore Quid rides ? de te fabula narratur , thou O Accountant art the man of whom this tale may be told more truly then of us , who hast plotted so well , as to plat a whip here for thy own back : yea I appeal to the whole world of wise men ●o judge , whether I do not bring proof out of your own paper , if your true Account be yours , and be as true an Account of your judgements as t is pretended to be of your disputation , that it is your own judgement , and not mine , that baptism is so necessary to salvation , that even such as believe , and yet are denyed to be baptized , notwithstanding that very belief of theirs shall be damned : go bur back with me therefore to the 7th page of your Pamphlet , and compare it with what you say in the third and fourth pages concerning childrens believing , and see what an Account you have there given of your own minds in this matter . In the fourth you conclude , from the like in the children of the Iewes , that the children of beli●ving parents have faith , in the third page you conclude from Mat. 18.6 . that little ones do believe , now look but in the seventh page , and let all the world judge , whether you do not there say of these same persons , viz. of the infants of believing parents , of whom you asserted before they were believers , that if they may not be baptized , and that 's none of the childrens fault neither as the neglect of baptism is in men , it destroies the hope that the parents can have of their salvation , for it leaves them in no better condition , say you , then Turks and Pagans , and their children : the salvation of whom is with you as hopeless , for ought I see , as of the Devills : which things let that or any judicious Gentleman spel , and put together and see if it be not tantamount to such a testimony as this , viz - that those that believe , and a●e not baptized shall be damned , for to be damned , and not saved are all one , and as for children of Tu●ks and Pagans dying in infancy , you record it it as a monstrous thing that I should say , that for ought I knew they might be saved ; yea by the reply that was made to that speech of mine by one who said perhaps I thought the devills might be saved , it appears that your party thinks it as possible that the devils may be saved , as soon as the dying infants of Turks and Pagans : and yet of the children of believing parents , who in your opinion do also believe themselves , you say the opinion of the Anabaptists , which denyeth baptism to little children , puts the parents out of hopes of their salvation , und makes them to be in no better condition then Turks and Pagans : yea you say believing parents may say of their children , that dy without baptism , what hopes of our child , who is in no better condition , then the children of infidels ? and really they say true if the state of infidels dying infants be so damnable , as you saie it is : is it you or we , Sirs , whose doctrine damnes believers , if they be not baptized ? I le conclude this matter with you , much what in your own words , and form of speech . Christ shuts out only unbelievers from heaven , whosoever believeth not shall and be damned , this doctrine of yours , that little infants are believers , and yet out of all hopes of being saved , if not baptized , shuts out believers if they be not baptized , i e. if they be not rantiz'd ( for that is the best baptism you use ) and by consequence if your doctrine , which you delivered in this Account ( as judicious Gentlemen that read it will affirm ) be true , that even believers not baptized shall be damned , you had need baptize your believing infants indeed , i. e. to do more then cris crosse two or three drops of water on their faces , or else ( for all your plea for their baptizing on pain of their damnation ) they l be damn●d , if they be no more then sprinkled , for want of true baptism when all is done : for that is not so much as the Ceremony it self in truth , which you are so hot for without the substance , yet would I not have you be an abhorring for all this , but pittyed and prayed for rather ▪ that you may in time for this and all other your follies , and false accusations of others , of things whereof you are more guilty your selves , abhor your selves in dust and ashes , that you may not be an abhorring ( as he is more then half blind that doth not see who will be once ) amongst both God and men Rev. 17.16 . Rev. 19.2 . And thus I have done with your first Argument . Review . The second is this , little Children under the law received the Seal of the Gospel covenant ; for circumcision was the seal of the righteousness of faith , which is the Gospel-Covenant . The Law saith , Do this and live : the Gospel , only believe in the Lord Iesus Christ ; and therefore God calls it an everlasting covenant ; and the Apostle saith the Law that came 430 years could not disannull it , Gal. 3.17 , and he saith expresly the Gospel was preached to Abraham , ibid. ver . 8. nay more , the carnall seed of Abraham , Ishmael and Esau , men branded for Reprobates in Scripture , yet because they were born in Abrahams house , received that seal by Gods appointment . Why then should not children under the Gospel receive baptism , which the Adversaries confess to be the Seal of the Gospel-Covenant ? Re-Review . This poor forlorn wretched Argument hath been handled , and laid sprawling once or twice before , where both its consequence is denyed , and good reason gien of the senselessness of such syllogizing , as is here from the Law to the Gospel , therefore it is but needless to defend our selves any further against it , it being a demi-dead man , that is disabled from being dreadful to us already ; nevertheless sith he hath strengthens himself again what he can , and comes up recru●ed , and attended with a company of scambling , and for the most part very unsound sentences at his heels , t wil not be amisse to enter the lists a little with him , and these his Auxiliaries . First then Sirs , whereas you come in again with that crooked consequence viz. inf●nts must be baptized under the Gospel , because circumcisied under the law , we might more pertinently let up a shout at your shameful folly in this particular , then set upon the shewing of it any more , it is so palpable ; for verily ( as is proved sufficiently above ) these two viz. the Covenant of the law and the Gospel , from the Identity of which you infer an Identity in the subject of the ordinances and administrations of both , and by way of analogy , would evince them both to belong to the same persons , I must tell you these are two Testaments , or wills of God , concerning men , in those two different times viz. before Christ and since , and these two so specifically distinct , that they not onely run upon different strains and require different terms ( as your selves here confesse ) the law saying do this and live , the Gospell onely believe , but also stand upon different promises , whereof the Gospels being of the heavenly Canaan , are better then the laws , which were but of an earthly one , and these also pertaining to two different seeds viz. the legal to the natural children of Abraham i. e. Isaac and his posterity by generation ; the Evangelical to the spiritual seed of Abraham i. e. such as are of Christ by faith and regeneration ; and they had also different dispensations , the one circumcision , the other another thing viz. dipping , a thing no way like it , and different subjects also for those different dispensations , so that ( if men and their ministers were not all turned Momes ) they could not , but must manifestly perceive it , the old Testament admitting to circumcision onely males , and these onely on the eighth day , in case they were in the house so young , and all the males in the house , whether sons or servants , whether born in the house , or bought with money of any stranger , and all this without respect to either faith or repentance in the persons to whom dispenst , or any prae-preaching to them by the person dispensing , the new Testament taking in to baptism as no servants upon the masters faith , so all persons in the world both males and females upon their own , and that upon any day , and not the eighth onely , wherein after they have been preacht to , they professe to repent and believe Mat. 3. Act , 2. Act. 8. Act. 18. The proof of which real , specifical diversity of these two Covenant● 〈◊〉 yet farre more evident . First , because the spirit denominates them so to be in Scripture , calling them expressely the two Covenants Gal. 4.24 . and also very often ( in plurali ) the Covenants , the covenants of promise . Secondly by that contradistinction of speech , which the spirit useth , when he speaks of them , and those oppposite Epithets , by which he diversifies them , calling one the Law , the other the Gospel , and the law by the name of the first testament , or will of Cod , the Gospel the Second , the law the old testament , the Gospel the new ; the law ( which bound to circumcision , and to the observation of which in all other things circumcision bound its subjects , when they came to years ) not of faith ( though faith then was too in a few , and also from the beginning as to the eternal inheritance ) but of flesh rather , and the time before faith came Gal. 3.11.12.13 . also a law of a carnall commandement , a faulty and a blameable testament of weak and beggerly rudiments , ( in respect of Christ , who is the end of them ) standing in imperfect and onely flesh-purifying precepts , and on meerly terrene , inferiour , and flesh-pleasing promises , as Canaan and Ierusalem here below also the Letter , in ink , in tables of stone , the ministration of death and condemnation , the Covenant gendering to bondage , the haired , the hand writing of ordinances that was against us , yet thus farre not against , but subservient to the promises , as t was the similitude of heavenly things , the figure and shadow of the good things to come , and a schoolmaster to bring to Christ , Eph. 2.14 . Col. 2.14 . The Gospel contrariwise the time of faith Gal. 3.25 . for after faith came &c. the power of an endless life Heb. 7.16 . a better Testament , standing in lesse painful ordinances , more plain and soul purifying precepts , and on better and more precious , and foul saving promises , a Canaan , a Ierusalem from above Heb. 8.6 . Also the ministration of the spirit in fleshly tables of the heart , of righteousnesse , of life , liberty , love , grace , reconciliation , the very Image and truth it self , of which the law was but the shadow . Thus you find the Scripture opposing one of these two to the other , so farre is it from signifying them to be one and the self same Covenant , as you frivolously fain them to be , that you may build your infant-baptism thereupon . Now whether we shall believe the holy spirit , which stiles these two expressely two Covenants , or your selves , who will have them to be but one , judge ye . Moreover , how two Covenants or testaments can be plurally pointed out and called two , and opposed respectively ad se invicem , by the names of the first and second , the old and new , the type and the truth , a better and a worse &c. yea and contradictorily predicated too , as the law and the Gospel are , of which it s said the one is of faith , i. e. ever ( for so the Gospel ever was , saying , believe and live , and the just must live by faith ) the other not of faith i. e. never ( for the law never was of faith , but the man that doth them shall live in them , was the terms thereof ) and yet all this while be but one and the same Covenant and Testament , is no lesse then a mystery to me sith , t is an undeniable rule among Logicians , that oppositio semper subinfer● pluralitatem , also that contradictio est oppositionum perfectissima , pugnacissima , et Eterna d s●unctionis : opposition , specially contradiction , which is the greatest of oppositions , doth suppose a plurality , so that t is impossible that one thing should be two contradictory things at once , or that contradictories should eodem tempore cadere in idem , i. e. be truely spoken both of the same thing at the same time . Babist . The one is called the first , and the old Testament meerly because it went before and is now vanisht away and alienated , the other is called the second , and the' new one meerly because it comes after that , and is now in being , not because it is really another Testament , another Covenant as you contend , but two parts rather or periods of one and the same Covenant of grace , which was from the beginning of the world . Baptist. I confesse that the Gospel Covenant was in the world before the Law , and under the law also , onely in smaller measure of manifestation , as well as now , but deny still that the Law , which is called the old and first Covenant was the Covenant of the Gospel , or that it was not a Covenant clearly distinct from it : for its being opposed as the new and second , to the other as a first and old one , preaches no lesse to the meanest capacities , then a plurality : And as for that reason , which you give of those terms first , second , old and new , viz. because the law was more antient and antecedent , the Gospel more of late , and subsequent , in this sence t is true the Gospel is succedaneous to the other , as to its last and clearest promulgation under Christ crucified ( for else in some degrees of it the Gospel was before the law , and was preacht to Abraham ( as you alleadge ) out of Gal. 3.8.17 . ) 430 years before Moses , yea and to Adam 2000 years before that , yea indeed to say the truth , the Law and the Gospel , were both even from the beginning , though both more lively illustrated toward the end : the Gospel in dark promises being both before , and under those plainer promulgations of the Law , as given by Moses , and the law in some parcels viz. Sacrifices and some other ceremonies of it , being from Adam and Abel before the brighter breakings forth of either the one , or yet the other , in this sence I say t is true , the Law came first by Moses , before the Gospel of grace and truth came by Christ ; whereupon that may be properly called the first and old one , and this also the second and the new , neverthelesse not onely thereupon , for howbeit the bare notions of first second , old and new arise from the ones being once , and now abolished , the others being since , and still abiding , yet could they not possibly and properly be called so much as two Covenants , much less a first and a second , if they were not truly two , or were only one , for then we may properly call two years one , or one single intire year by the name of two years , and those two the first year and the second , the old year and the New year , because there is two parts , two periods , two halves in that one year , whereof one is Antecedent to the other , which Py-bald Bull , Bipartite business , odd conceited one-two , or simple duple is both ridiculous , improper and impossible . Babist . They are called two Covenants in regard of the double outward dispensation , and different administration thereof , though the Covenant be one and the same , and so saith Mr. Marshall p. 8.9.10 . of his Sermon , viz. The Covenant of grace for substance hath been alwaies one and the same , though not for the Manner of administration so p. 12. The externall administration of the Covenant is not the same with us ( saith he ) as it was with them , but the Covenant is the same , they were under the same misery by nature , had the same Christ , the lamb slain from the beginning of the world , the same conditions of faith and repentance to be made partakers of the Covenant , the same graces promised in the Covenant , circumcising the heart to love the Lord &c. Theirs was dispensed in darker prophecies , and obscurer sacrifices , types , and sacraments , ours more gloriously and in a more greater measure : the clothes indeed do differ , but the body is the same , and so p. 13. The very self same priviledges , formerly made peculiar to the Iews , are now ( saith he ) through Christ communicated to the Gentiles . Baptist. That the Covenant of grace is for substance not two but in all ages one and the same within it self who denies ? but what then ? is it therefore one and the same with another , that most manifestly , and downrightly differs from it , and is as distinct a covenant also as that within it self ? for so verily the law , which is also called the first covenant , or the Covenant of Circumcision , was varying wonderfully from that Gospel Covenant , whereof yet we confesse is to be the type , in both its Priesthood and People , its Mediator and Attonement , sacrifices and offerings , precepts and promises , inheritance and heirs , birth-priviledges and seed , ordinances and their subjects , and all things thereunto pertaining : I say they were very divers each from other , saving still that one was to shadow out the other , viz. Moses the Mediator , Ioshua the Saviour , Aaron the High-Priest , and his burnt offerings , for that temporal annuall Attonement , Heb. 10.1 , 2. and purgation from fleshly impurities , were all to point our Christ , who is all this spiritually , viz. the Mediator , Saviour , High-Priest , Sacrifice , and author of eternal Attonement between God and us , and purification of our Consciences in the Gospel ; those earthly promises and inheritance were to represent our heavenly , their fleshly heirship , birth-priviledges , seed , and admission of new born babes to ordinances , to shadow out what high born heirs those babes are , who are begotten to the faith , and their right and title to a standing in the Gospel Church . O but saies Mr. Marshall , they had the same Gospel Covenant that we have , the same Christ , the same conditions , i. e. faith and repentance &c. First , take notice that with him faith and repentance are the conditions on which persons stood then , and ever before , and do now in the Gospell Covenant which things he knowes infants have not , and therefore are not by right to be visibly inchurched , and incovenanted under the Gospel . till they visibly appear to have them , yet under the Law they were in covenant , and inchurched for all that and why ? because faith and repentance were not the conditions of that Church-covenant and ordinances , nor of heirsh●p to that Earthly Canaan , but meer fleshly descent of Abraham , Isaac and Iacob , which whoever had , had title to circumcision and Canaan ( though not to heaven ) thereupon , if they never believed , nor repented whilest they breathed . Secondly , but what if they had the same Gospel Covenant , that we have , held forth to them , at least in a darker way , will it follow therefore that they had not also another Covenant over and above that peculiar to themselves , which we have not , whereof circumcision was a token , and which believing Gentiles , much less their seed have nought to do with at all ? I trow not , for though we grant Mr. Marshall , that they had the substance of the Gospel among them , as also Adam , Noah , and Abraham had , and the same priviledges of that Covenant that we have ( excepting some circumstances of it , wherein we are beyond them ) that will not run retro ( as Mr. Marshall would fain have it ) That the self same priviledges formerly made peculiar to the Iews , are now through Christ conveyed to the Gentiles : for the old Covenant priviledges viz. the fleshly birth holiness , and heirship to Canaan , and title to be signed as heirs , upon a meer natural descent are such as the best Gentiles , and best believers seed in the world can lay no claim to , for that was ( as we see Gen. 17. ) a distinct proper Covenant to themselves , as the fleshly seed of Abraham , Isaac and Iacob , whom the spiritual seed themselves have ( as such ) no right to partake with in their inheritance or earthly Canaan , as this fleshly seed ( as meerly such ) have no right to partake with the other in their heavenly Canaan . Babist . But Mr. Marshal saies p. 11. that all their external promises in case of obedience , all outward blessings , which were to be enjoyed by them , the land of Canaan , and all the good things in it , all outward punishments and threatnings , losse of their Conntrey , going into captivity , and their sacrifices , their washings , their sprinklings , their holy persons , holy feasts , and holy things , were all of them but so many administrations of the Covenant of grace ; earthly things were not onely promised and threatned more distinctly and fully , then now they are to them who are in Covenant , but were figures , signs and types , and sacraments of spiritual things , to be enjoyed both by them and us . Baptist. As I grant the Covenant of Grace , which promises eternal life on conditions ( as Mr. Marshall confesses ) of only faith and repentance , to be for substance for ever the same within it self , so I grant that the other covenant viz. all those external promises of outward blessings , which were to be enjoyed by the Iews in Canaan , in case of their obedience , was a certain outward administration , and lively type of that inward and true covenant of grace , yet still must it be regranted by Mr. Marshall and all men , that even that was a true , real , and really distinct covenant also of it self , and though that were a plain picture , and a map of the other , and as it were a different dresse wherewith it was clothed upon , and wherein it was exhibited to the world , yet was it not onely an administration of the Gospel , but also an entire covenant , so substantially divided from that , as that its most properly denominated another covenant , and not that , and they both are truly denominated to be two viz. an old and new one , a first , and a second , which they could not genuinely be , unless one were more then meerly another form and manner of administration or the other . Nay seriously if that Gospel covenant , which both you and wee say is one and the same in substance , onely admitted variation in its circumstances , doth multiply it self answerably to the number of those different clothings , which that one body hath successively come forth in , and must be as multifariously expressed , as it hath shewed it self in various habits to our view , and bear the names of two , of first and second , old and new from its severall and remarkable periods and administrations : then sith there hath been not two onely , but as you say truely your selves , four rem●rable periods , and circumstantial appearances of that covenant viz. the first from Adam to Abraham ; the second from Abraham to Moses ; the third from Moses to Christ ; the fourth from Christ to the end ; the word would sure have spoken of four covenants , or testaments , and not two onely viz. two old ones , and two new ones , or the first and second , the third and fourth , and so by that reckoning this is the fourth testament that we are under , yet truly it is but a second , and a second truly it is , in respect to that first testament that 's now vanisht , that once was in force , and had truly , though more carnally and also typically of this , and as this also more spiritually hath , ordinances of divine service , and a sanctuary , and a mediator , and Saviour , and salvation ; and Priesthood , and sacrifices , and blood of sprinkling , and purifying , an atonement , and an inheritance , and a promised land , and a seed entitled to it , and a circumcision evidencing it , and given as a token viz. that to the fleshly seed which was circumcision of the flesh , this to the spiritual babes , I mean believers i. e. the circision of the heart . And howbeit that was a kind of administration of this , that the map , this the main thing meant by it , that the picture , this the person represented , that the clothing this the body , at that time set forth gloriously thereby , yet all this denies not but that that map , that picture , that clothing , that glorious administration was also ( as it is also called a distinct Covenant within it self , which though it stood truly for a time , yet because also as a type of what should be under Christ , is now utterly abrogated , utterly nullified together with the holinesse of all its most glorious holy ordinances , whereof circumcision was a chief one , and in infancy to be dispensed , and with the holinesse of all their holy things , and their holy persons also i. e. the whole race of the Iews to all their posterities , which holy persons Mr. Marshal ( wellfare his heart for it ) in that clause I now answer to , confessing to be a type , must consequently confesse their holinesse to be totally taken away now the truth is come in , and not translated from that holy people to believing Gentiles and their seed : for these can have none of the holinesse of that old Covenant now , which yet you will needs have to be no more but a bare administration of the new . And lastly take it to be but so , you will gain by it no smal disadvantage to your cause : for though you yield it not to be point blank another Covenant , yet if you yield it to be another administration of the Gospel Covenant , divers from this we are now under , you grant us enough as to our present purpose , yea as much as we need to desire , for our dispute is not now to the Covenant it self so much , as to its manner of administration ; so that let that covenant and this be as much one as they will , yet if the manner of administrations of the Gospel Covenant in its outward ordinances , were then ( as you say ) unlike to what they are now , you give us no lesse by your own argument then even all that we contend for , for the very thing you plead from the consideration of that Identity , which is dreamed by you to be in the Covenant , is an Identity in the manner of administration of ordinances under both the law and the Gospel : for whoever shall say that the manner of administration of baptism under the Gospel must be as the manner of administration of circumcision was under the law , and in proof thereof shall say the Covenant of the Law and Gospel is one and the same , though the manner of administration be different , suo se ingulabit gladio , will even quite cut the throat of his own cause , yet thus plainly doth Mr. Marshall speak p. 12. of his Ser. viz. Now this external administration of the covenant is not the same with us , as it was with them but the Covenant is the same . But is it so Sirs ? so you say it seems as well as we ; then you have brought your hoggs to a fair Market indeed , for it the externall administration , which was then be , as to the manner of it , different from that which is now , then I wonder what pattern you can pick from that manner of administration , whereby to steer your cause now , and to direct your selves about the true manner of this : for will any wise man in any w●rk , action or administration he is about to p●●form take his example by another work , action or administration which himse●● confesses is quite different from it , and not after the same manner as that is to be done in , which he hath now in hand to do ? yet thus do you whilest contending that the outward administration of the covenant among the Jews was not in the same manner as the outward administration of it is to be now , you yet contend to have our baptism as much as may be after the manner of their circumcision : you must , and you must not it seems ( and these both a● once ) walk after those customes , and do things now after the manner of Moses . If any man then ask me this question , viz. sith the Gospel covenant is everlastingly the same for substance , and little children under the law received circumsion the seal as you call it , of the Gospel covenant , why then should not little children under the Gospel receive baptism , the seal ( so I hear you say ) of the Gospel covenant ? and why should not this administration of the covenant in outward ordinances be after the manner of that of old ? I answer him out of Mr. Marshalls own mouth thus , because though for substance the Gospel Covenant be ever one and the same , yet the manner of external administration thereof , is not the same with us as t was with them , and therefore we are not to take example in our Dispensations , and administrations by them , nor regard to do after the manner of them , the Priest-hood being changed , of necessity there is a change also of the Law , for the administrators are not the same with us , as with them , nor the administrations the same in matter , nor the manner of administration to them the same , nor the subjects to whom these administrations belong the same , for those were to all the holy Jewes , though never so unholy and unbelieving , but these to Jewes and Gentiles as they believe and no otherwise : least of all is the subject of circumcision and baptism the same , for that above all the rest was limitted to all males , and those only at eight daies old , this extending to males and females , and those only when they professe to be believers . Babist . Circumcision was a more Evangelical administration : hen the rest , as being given when the Gospel was preached to Abraham 430 years before the Law , therefore we may give the more heed to that , sith it is of the Fathers and more then to the other ordinances , which by institution were more immediately of Moses . Baptist. Though it were in being so long before Moses , yet was it as directly belonging to his law as any other administration what-ever , for howbeit it was before him , yet it is said to be of him , as all the Sacrifices also were , which were of old before circumcision , because he gave them all anew , and plainer promulgation , and was Mediator of all that old Testament service , which ended in Christ , and was even from the very beginning . Moreover , Though the Gospel Covenant was preached in a type to Abraham in Gen. 17. where circumcision was also first appointed , yet that in reference to which Circumcision of the flesh was there instituted , was immediately that first and old covenant of the Law , which was in some parcels and pieces of it before Abraham , and now was propounded a little more fully in the promise of that land to his fleshly seed , and the express appointment of that one more special precept thereof , i. e. Circumcision , though the fulnesse of it came not till four hundred and thirty years after : yea he that hath but half an eye in his head must needs see that to be the covenant , viz. that which was made in a type ( I grant ) of another , yet really with the seed of Abrahams body , whereof that circumcision was the token , which covenant and circumcision were so neer kin , that Stephen calls that Acts 7. the Couenant of circumcision , which also I have spoken to so sufficiently above , that howbeit you here give me the occasion de novo , yet I le trouble you no further with it here . Review . 1. These are the seed of Abraham , Semen fidei , Gal. 3.7 . so Zacheus by believing was made a son of Abraham , nay the spiritual seed . 2. The promise is to believers and their seed Act. 2.39 . 3. The Gospel is a better Covenant Heb. 8.6 . and it would be far worse if the children of believers under the Gospel should not be counted within the covenant , nor have right to the seal , nor be esteemeed members of the visible church as well as the Iewes children , nay according to the Anabaptists valued but as Turks and Pagans . Re-Review . Here to inforce this Argument a fresh , least the front should faile , you come up three a breast , and let fly at us thick and threefold with a first , second and third report . First , you tell us that these , i. e. believers fleshly seed are the seed of Abraham , nay the faithful seed , or seed of faith , and that in such manner too as Zacheus was made the son , or seed of Abraham , and how was that ? viz. by believing : nay the spiritual seed : quid ni ? they cannot chuse I warrant bu● ipso sacto be believers , i. e. born again by faith ( for such only are of faith ) yea and the spiritual seed too , i , e. born of the spirit ( for such only are a spiritual seed ) and that so well as Zacheus himself , if once barely born of the bodies of the flesh , of such spiritual parents as do believe , alias live in Christendome , at least in reformed Christendome , for if all papists be not a spiritual body of believers with you ( as they are with the Pope ) all protestants are taken by you so to be , I mean to be such , whose fleshly seed are of faith ▪ and the spiritual seed of Abraham and so to be baptized , O fy ! Sirs O fy ! O fy ! Babist . Our meaning is not that these are , or are to be counted in the spirit , or of the faith as Abraham was , but only to be accounted under the Gospell , and reckoned all to Abraham , as his children in an outward sense , fo f●r as to a being in his family , i. e. the visible Church . Baptist. 1. Me thinks any mans own mother wit should tell him that God never appointed things to be accounted by us , otherwise then they are , or at least appear , much less otherwise then they can be . 2. Appeal and lay close siege Sirs to your own consciences , search and see whether they will tell you , that the place you quote , viz. Gall. 3.7 . be at all for you , or be not much rather against you , mean which of these two waies you will. For if you mean in as plain English as you speak it , that the infants of believers are really the seed of Abraham , the seed of faith , the spiritual seed , so as Zacheus himself was , that is , by believing , doth that Scripture so much as implicitly say any such thing , either that the seed of believers do believe , or that they are the seed of Abraham , when it saith v. 7. they which are of faith , the same are the children of Abraham , and ver 9. they which be of faith , are blessed with faithful Abraham ? doth that phrase ( I say ) they which be of faith signifie believers infants ? or believing infants ? ( quid rides ? such folk as those , though some are ashamed to say they see , yet some are not ashamed to say are to be seen in the world ) or doth it signifie such as are true believers indeed ? which of the two think you doth it expresse , such persons at years onely , as are in the faith , or onely the natural fleshly seed of such ? or if you say both , that that one phrase viz. they which be of faith should express two kinds of persons , so differently descended of two so different births viz. believers themselves born of God by faith in Christ , and also the meer fleshly seed of believers , who are no higher born then of their bodies , is so far from truth , that it is more then flat folly to conceive it And if you mean it not of their being Abrahams children really by faith , so as thereupon to be assured heirs of salvation , but of their being counted of the faith , so as to outward membership in the Church onely , t is plain that Gal. 3.7.9 . speaks of such onely as are truly in the faith i. e. faithful as Abraham was , so as to be not onely outwardly inchurched , but eternally saved also , as none can say all believers children are , some of them proving wretches when they come to years , for as many as be of faith ( saith he ) i. e. faithful as Abraham was , are blessed , and shall be justified and saved with faithful Abraham , whose faith was imputed to him for righteousnesse , as faith shall be imputed to us also Rom. 4.22.23 . if we believe on him that raised up Iesus from the dead &c. answerable to that also is Gal. 3.26.29 . ye are all the children of God by faith in Iesus Christ , & if ye be Christs i. e. by faith , then are ye Abrahams seed , and heirs according to the promise i. e. the promise not of the law or old covenant , or earthly Canaan ( for the Galatians were never heirs according to that ) nor yet of meer membership and participation of ordinances in the Church , that 's more pertaining to the preceptory then the promissory part of the Gospel , but of the eternall inheritance it self , which is made not onely to believers and their seed , as you lace it up , but to all men and their seed , on terms of believing and comming in at Gods call , and made good to as many as are so effectually called , so that they obtain the promise of that eternal inheritance indeed : compare Heb. 9.15 . with Act. 2.39 . answerable to that also is Rom. 9.7.8 . where it s said in a figure that as the seed of Abraham himself by Ishmael were not children of God i. e. as to the old Covenant , so as to be counted heirs of that Canaan and members of that Church , though they were his true seed , and the children of his flesh as well as Isaac was , because Isaac onely and his seed were the children of that promise Gen. 17.19.20.21 . for in Isaac shall thy seed ( saith he ) be called ; the children of Abrahams flesh , the Ishmaelites , these are not the children of God in the old legal sense , but the children of the promise are counted for the seed , so even the seed of Abraham by Isaac himself are not at all children i. e. the children of God as to the new covenant , so as to be counted heirs of the Gospel Canaan , and members in the Gospel church , though they were his true seed and children of his flesh as well as Christ was , because Christ onely and his seed are the children of this promise , for in Christ who was the true Isaac of whom the other was but the type , must Abrahams seed now be called i. e. they that are the children of the flesh onely , whether of Abraham , or of any other man in the world , these are not now ( as of old the fleshly seed of Abpaham Isaac and Iacob were ) the children of God , but the children of the promise are counted now for the seed . T is true , to Abraham and his seed the Gospel promises were made as well as those of the law , but mark it , he saith not unto seeds in plurali , as of many , but of one , and to thy seed in singulari , that is Christ Gal. 3.16 . of whom being born by faith we are his seed , to whom in and with him the promise is made , for as the believer himself as a believer i. e. as Abrahams spiritual seed had no share in the old covenant promise i. e. Canaan , if not descended from him by Isaac after the flesh , because to Abraham and that fleshly seed onely ( in a type of something else , and yet truly too ) those promises were made , so a believers fleshly seed , as barely a believers seed , though born of believing Abrahams own body , as the Iews are at this day ( and that 's a higher birth one should think to entitle to the Gospel , if any fleshly birth could do it , then to be born of our Protestant believers ) have no share in this new Covenant promise , if not born ( as I may say ) of Abraham by Isaac i. e. Christ after the faith . or by faith in Christ , and so personally , even every individual for himself , not Catervatim , or domesticatim , whole families , whole nations of parents and children at once ingraffed as branches upon the root , and spirituallized into that stock or family of Abraham i. e. the visible Church in which his own natural branches , much more any other mans meer naturall branches , can have no place now , any further then as they appear to believe . Indeed the natural branches stood of right upon meer fleshly birth of believing Abraham without faith , so long as that fleshly birth-priviledge lasted , and could give a standing , and till the time of faith , and standing there by personal faith onely came , and then they were broken off indeed because of unbelief , yet not nationally as you say , i. e. the whole body for the unbelief of some viz. the persons of the children through allages , for the infidelity of the parents , for its evident that as many as believed , and those were not a few , when the rest were rejected , were then and thereupon admitted Act. 2. And as many children of them in any age as believe , the unbelief of their parents shall not prejudice them , but personally every individual that did not believe , which the more is the pitty , were for the most part both children and parents too in the primitive times , save some few persons that did then believe , whose children yet for all that promise to them and their children you so talk of out of Act. the 2.39 . came all to nought through unbelief , for else indeed the promise , even after Christ crucified was to them , as also to all others so sure in case of faith , that that causelesse curse of their parents , wishing the blood of Christ to be on them and their children , should never have hurt any , but them that wished it . In further illustration of which yet , I mean that personal faith onely , not parental gives a standing in the Church now , because I write to a generation of men , that have more time to read then I to write , I hope I may be bold to trouble my self and you with the transcription of at least a page out of a little treatise termed a confutation of infant-baptism by Thomas Lamb , very plain and pregnant to this purpose : and the rather because I fear you will not search the book it self soundly if I should send you to it , onely by telling you t is worth your reading in this point , though at your request I have all-to-be-read Dr. Featley , in the 12. and 13 pages of which book of Thomas Lamb , he writes as follows . So then when Christ the true promised seed was come the seed in the flesh , that lead to Christ ceased , for the natural relation ceased at the death of Christ , and not before , at which time the distinction or different holinesse between Iew and Gentile ceased , Act. 10.28 . Eph. 2.13.15 . In Rom. 11.20 . it is said through unbelief they are broken off , now t is manifest they were the true Church till the death of Christ , and then broken off through unbelief : why were not the Iews in the sin of unbelief before ? yes no doubt , why then were they not broken off before ? and why then ? the reason is because the time of faith was come , and therefore now they were broken off through unbelief ; the seed was come therefore the natural seed ceased , Christ was come therefore the law ceased . As long as the law lasted they did remain in the Church by being circumcised ; and observing the rites and ceremonies of the Law , though they did remain in unbelief , but when the time of faith was come Gal. 3.25 . then they were no longer in the Covenant , and Church by observing the rites and Ceremonies of the Law , which they entered into by circumcision , but now they were broken off through unbelief : which notes out unto us that the standing in that Church before Christ in time of the Law , and the standing in this Church since Christ in time of the Gospel is upon different grounds , for the standing in that Church was by being circumcised , and observing the rites and ceremonies of the Law ; but the standing in this Church is by faith , and being baptized into the same faith Act. 2.38.41 . Joh. 4.1 . Gal. 3.26 , 27. Rom , 11.20 . And it is to be noted that the Iewes , the same people that were circumcised , and in covenant with Abraham according to the flesh , and thereby members of the Iewish Church could not be the visible church according to the Gospell , unless they did manifest faith , and so be in covenant with Abraham according to the spirit , and baptized into the same faith . Whereas if the Covenant now under Christ were the same that was before Christ with Abraham and his posterity in the flesh , then by the same right they possessed circumcision and the Iewish Church state , they must possesse this since Christ , which they could not do , therefore it is not the same . It is true therefore that the Covenant of God makes the Church both in time of the Law , and Gospel too , for the Church is nothing else but a people in covenant with God , now look how the covenant differs so the Church and people differs which is made by it , and which enter into it . Now the Covenant , whereby God took a people outwardly to be his people then , was that , whereby they did , being circumcised , participate of all those outward meanes which led to Christ , which was to come , Psal. 149.19.20 . But the Covenant , whereby he takes a people outwardly to be his people now , whereby they are admitted to be baptized , is that profession they make of faith in Christ Acts 8.12.37 . Mat 3.6 . Whereby they have true and spirituall conjunction with God and are his people Heb. 3.6 . Indeed it is true that Christ is and ever was the Mediator and Means of salvation , and also that all those that were saved , were saved through faith in him both before and since his comming : But yet because the outward means of making Christ known doth differently depend upon his being yet to come , and upon his being come in the flesh ; the one being more dark , the other more plain , the one more carnall , the other more spirituall , therefore the participation of these meanes doth make the state of the participants to differ . Thus far are his words : and then noting certain differences to the number of seven or eight between the Old Testament and the New , which is 1. Established upon better promises . 2. After the power of an endless life . 3. In Christ. 4. And liberty of the spirit . 5. A Celestial Jerusalem . 6. A State of faith . He very truly concludes that such onely as are in the New Covenant , in Christ , in faith of the promises , born from above , and partakers of the spirit , and the power of that endless life : or of the world to come are suitable to be admitted to Gospel Church priviledges . In the time therefore before Christ ( saith he ) such as would circumcise themselves , and their males , and observe the Law in the rites , and ceremonies therof , together with their children by generation were the seed and in covenant with that Church , but now since Christ , only such as believe in Christ , and are thereby children by regeneration , are the seed and in covenant with this Church , and this he proves further yet . First , Because None of the Natural seed of Abraham are in the Covenant by vertue of any natural relation , though they did remain in the Iewish Church till the death of Christ , and as that Church then ceased so their being in the Church by an natural relation ceased also Act. 10.28 . Rom. 9.8 . Gal. 5.28.31 — 3.7 , 8 , 9 ▪ 14.16.19.26.28 , 29. Secondly , The Gentiles have no natural relation to become Abrahams seed by , therefore a believers child cannot become the seed of Abraham by being the seed of a believer , unless such children do believe themselves , and cannot otherwise in no respect be participants in the covenant made with Abraham p. 14 , 15. And again p. 18. No Gentile ( saith he ) is Abrahams seed at all but by believing the righteousnesse of faith , allthough he be the child of believing parents . Now therefore because you tell us not only , First that believers children in infancy are Abrahams children , though they yet do not the works of Abraham , i. e. believe not on him that justifyes them , as some of you dote they do , but also , Secondly , that the promise of the Gospel is to believers and their seed . These both are abundantly confuted by that quotation of mine , which quotes more Scripture then you will ever answer , so that I wonder you blush not to shoot out so boldly two such blind , and unsound assertions together , the second of which I shall say no more to , it being virtually answered by what is more formally spoken to the first & also because I have shewed so undeniably above , that I know your consciences must yield to it , and that from this Act. 2.39 . whence you would wre●t a proof to the contrary , that the promise , if you take it for the profer of the Gospel Grace , is to all men in the world , every creature , and so not to believers and their seed only , but to all unbelievers and their seed also , in case they shall believe , for he conditionats the promise on calling , for such these were , whom Peter spake to , whilst he was yet speaking that very word to them , viz. the promise is to you and your children ; but if you take it for the thing promised , which is not Church-membership and participation of baptism , as some say whose absurdity therein I have declared , but the spirit , remission of sins , and salvation , this is made , good also to the believer himself ; and it is mercie enough to him that it is so I think , but not at all to his seed for his sake , nor his faiths sake , for if it be I testify his children need no faith of their own : nay more God never made promise to save any of believing Abrahams natural seed , without faith in themselves for Abrahams sake , as neerly as he took Abraham to be his friend ; for even he had sin enough of his own to have sunck him , if the same Mediator that saves any of his seed , in that way of faith , had not mercifully saved him the same way , nor yet for Abrahams faiths sake , for that merited not salvation for them , nor was it instrumental , but faith only in themselves , to any one of his sonnes salvation , for every one must bear his own burden , if Christ bear it not , and the just must live by his faith , and not his fathers , neither did he ever promise for his faiths sake to give faith to his natural seed as his , for then they must all have had it ( qua sic including de omni , and being universale summum ) or God should ly which he cannot ; neither could God blame them ( as he doth ) for unbelief , but himself , without whom ( say you they could not believe & who had promised to make them believe and did not ; though yet he promised to circumcise i. e. by his spirit to sanctify the hearts of his spiritual seed , as well as his own i. e. all such as believe , and are in the faith with him , for the promise being still sure to all the seed , which it is made to they all must be blessed with faithful Abraham . Now if God , who made the old Covenant promise of the earthly Canaan to Abraham , and his fleshly seed , did not make the Gospel promise to him and his fleshly seed , but onely that seed of his that believes with him , can we think that he made that promise to the Gentile believer , and his fleshly seed , for his fathers sake , unlesse he have faith of his own ? Babist . No we do not say without respect to his own faith , but as the believers seed shall believe , so it s made to him , as well as to his parents . Baptist. So it s made to the unbeliever and his seed also viz. as they shall believe , as well as to either of the other , and by that account you may baptize all the world . Again , none of the Jews , though the natural seed of Abraham , and partakers of all the ordinances of the old testament ( as Abrahams children ) could be admitted to be baptized upon that same natural relation , though they pleaded it never so stiffly Mat. 3 but only on manifestation of amendment , besides that 3000 converts should not baptize their children , when they were baptized themselves , as Abraham by command took all his males , and cirmumcised them the self same day with himself , argues plainly that both the covenant and the promise ( as Mr. Marshal saies truly ) as to the manner of administration was now changed , and not continued to parents and children both alike , but as they both alike believed . And that these were not baptized with their parents , I take Mr. Cotton at his word , who ( as I have shewed before ) confesses it , and if he should not stand to his testimonie herein , yet these words viz. as many as glady received the word were baptized , which exclude infants , and were an imperfect relation , if he meant not onely them that received the word , are so cogent that they cannot but compell him . So I have escaped two of your bullets , and as for the third viz. that the Gospel , which is a better Covenant , would be far worse , if believers children be not counted in it , and have not right to baptism , and membership as well as the Iews children , and be valued but as Turks and Pagans , this is so sick of the same disease of absurdity with the rest , that I fear not its doing much execution : besides , we have lamed it before , having told you before , and proved it too , and now will again , that the exclusion of the fleshly seed from this Covenant and administration , which was taken into the first , doth not lessen or straiten the grace of God under it at all , nor render this covenant worse then the first contrary to Heb. 8.6 . the place twice quoted by you , where it s called a better , for the meliority there spoken of of this covenant above that , lies not so much in the extension of the grace of it to such subjects , as in the meliority of its promises , for this is a better covenant still then the other , who ere it belongs or belongs not to , forasmuch as it makes better promises then the other viz. of a heavenly Canaan , and all spiritual blessings in and by Iesus through faith , when that promised an earthly Canaan onely , and certain temporal blessings therein , on performance of those tedious services of the law . T is true , theirs in this sense , and thus farre was a Covenant of great grace too , as t was made freely to that people above other nations ( for he did not so to any people else ) concerning outward benefits , and such statutes and judgements , as should on their observation of them , not onely continue them therein , but as a shadow , type and schoolmaster conduct them to this : yet greater is the glory of the Gospel covenant , which now is , so that the other had no glory in respect of this glory that excelleth , therefore the grace of God under the covenant , to them that are under it , is greater also . Besides , if you speak not onely of the intention , but extension of the grace of God in this Covenant , and in the administration of it too , it goes beyond the other , for not only is the Gospel a clearer promulgation of the eternal covenant , then that typical covenant was , whereby the glory of it may be seen more plainly , and with open face , then when it was seen onely in the type as a thing to come ( for we preach Christum exhibitum Christ crucified , a sacrifice already offered , and baptize and break bread in token hereof , but they ( and that in much dimnesse too ) Christum exhibendum , a Messiah to come , he was veiled , though seen through the veil in the old , but revealed in this new dispensation ) but also it is of larger extent in respect of the subject to which it belongs , for the revelation of it by preaching , and real proferring of the grace of it in the name of God ( who is not willing that any should perish , and fail of his grace unlesse they will ) is to all people in the world : the old administration of circumcision , and other pertinances of that covenant , which was the type of this , was limitted and narrowed into a little corner , the land of Israel , the people of the Iews , yea more the very new covenant administration that we are now under , as preaching , baptizing &c. while the old covenant did continue ( as it did for two or three year after the beginning of this by Iohn , till Christ crucified ) was streitned exceedingly above what it is among us , for saith Christ then , go not into any way of the Gentiles , but now since Christ crucified its extended freely to every nation , and every person in it of capacity , of years to receive it ( and till then ( dying before ) they shall never be damned for rejecting it ) without any exception , as they believe , for go ( saith he ) into all the world &c. Mark. 16 Mat. 28. then circumcision was limitted to males among the Iews , but Christ and baptism is to Jew and Gentile , male and female without difference as they believe , so that the grace is rather lengthned in the administration of baptism by taking in the females , that were not circumcised , then straitned by the denial of it to infants in their infancy onely , for even those also may be baptized too if they will , when they come to years : the grace of the new covenant therefore is even thus as well as otherwise better then the old , in respect of the extent of it , and its administration also to more subjects , for the Jews onely were the subjects of that grace , and heirs by promise of the earthly Canaan , but all the world are heirs of heaven by promise according as they repent and believe the Gospel , Besides , if you think that ever God took the whole body of that nation Israel , that belonged all to the typical salvation of the old covenant , into the covenant of everlasting salvation by Christ in relation to their fathers faith without their own , and thence conclude that the whole body of believers seed must be by faith of their parents admitted into that same Covenant of the Gospel , this is a meer Chimaera of your own brain , for no such grace of God as this ( though some priests of the Iews dreamed of it as well as you , for which they were pretty well curried by Christ , and Iohn Mat. 3. Iohn 8. ) ever was , now is , or ever shall be . As for our valuing believers infants as Turks and Pagans , I tell you we rate them higher then your selves , for we set them not so low as Turks and Pagans that are at years , and wicked , for they though not without many possibilities of life by Christ , yet dying imp●enitents will be damned , as well as many of you that abuse more light , nor yet so low as the infants of Turks and Pagans , for though they ( dying in infancy ) are by your own doctrine all alike i. e. none deserving exemption by actual sin from salvation , yet living these have in likelihood more advantages for life then those of Pagans , but you though you set by a few more then the ●est in your account ( and yet in some partes of your Account too you make them equal ( yet no lesse then 20 to one are valued little higher then the Divels , for your speech p. 7. supposes that the divels may be saved as soon as the dying infants of Turks and Pagans . Review . If they object children cannot be taught nor made to understand the sacraments ; no more could they at circumcision : If further that they shed tears at their baptism , as unwilling to receive it : so they did at circumcision ; If they say they were semen carnis , and had right by the promise : so these are semen fidei , & the promise is unto them : If they say the seal is often voided by their infidelity afterwards , because many baptized so young become reprobates : so it was among the Iewes witnesse Ishmael and Esau and those of whom the Apostle saith that they entered not in through unbelief . Re-Review . Here you drive on four deep , and against a four fold assault , make a four fold repulse , pelting us a main , but with pellets of brown paper . To the first I reply , no more need they be taught at circumcision , but the baptized are commanded to be taught first , untill they believe Mat. 28.19 , 20. Mark 16.15.16 . and also immediately after , which is so plain , that though here you answer by denying all possibility of childrens being taught before circumcision , yet else where viz. p. 10. and 18. you fence this off with such prety contrary quiddy stuff as this , viz. that as to baptism infants have a teaching , a hearing and a learning , for the spirit say you opens their ears , quo magistro , quam cito discitur quod docet : he doth it in them , and in adultis too , or else for all their hearing they l not believe : but that we shal have more to say to when we come to it , To the second that as unwilling as infants were to receive circumcision , and as tedious as it was to them , or servants either that received it , yet by express command if they were Males in Abrahams house , he was to dispense it to them , whether they were willing or no , but you have no such flat command to disease your little infants so far as to dip them in water ( for so you should if you baptizd them indeed ) whether they will or no. To the third O wonderful ! that Abrahams own fleshly seed , even by Isanc himself , by bare descent from their bodies ▪ unlesse they also believed as Abraham did , could become , and be counted no more then bare semen carnis , the children of Abrahams flesh , & have right by promise ( qua sic ) of no more then the earthly Canaan , For Ishmael though born of Abraham , and circumcised also as a male of his house , was not heir by promise of so much as that Gen. 17.19.20 , 21. and yet that the fleshly seed of believing Gentiles should become and be accounted no less then Abrahams semen fidei , the children of his faith , and such high heirs thereby , as have right to the heavenly Canaan . Abrahams faith it seems doth not priviledge his own natural seed , so far as to be his seed in a spiritual relation , but the faith of every Gentile priviledges his natural seed , so far as to be spiritually the seed of Abraham : but Sirs me thinks if any fleshly descent in the world could dignify the seed so descended with the high name of the spiritual seed of Abraham , and heirs with him according to the heavenly promise , a fleshly descent from Abraham , Isaac and Iacob should do it , yet even that meerly , without more , makes the seed no more then the natural seed of Abraham , and heirs with him of only the earthly promise . Yea , Sirs , that Abrahams seed is shut out from all spiritual kindred to their own faithful father Abraham , notwithstanding the faith of that their Father , unlesse they believe also themselves , and yet our seed who are but Gentiles after the flesh are so specially , so spiritually a kin to Abraham by the faith of us their fathers , without their own , is not only to equallize our seed with Abrahams , which is the utmost you pretend to , but rather to reckon it as a higher race then that of Abrahams , a matter which the most capacious brain pan of you all is no way capable clearly to conjecture . To the fourth that circumcision was not voided by the Jewes after infidelity , for t was not set on supposition they had faith , neither was it after voided by their proving Reprobates , for it was not set to signify them to be Gods elect , they being not so at all ( as Jewes I mean ) as to eternal life , but only to that earthly life in Canaan , for had it been set to have supposed believers onely , and elect ones , then it must not have been set to Ishmael and Esau , for they were not at all known to be , but rather foreknown not to be the elected heirs of either Canaan , viz. the typical or the true , for God who foresaw how in time they would deserve it , the one by scoffing , the other by selling both the birth-right , and the blessing , had to Abraham Gen. 17.19 , 20 , 21. and to Rebecca Gen. 25.23 . either plainly , or figuratively foretold their rejection from both , yet both these were circumcised , and that neither of them in vain , sith being males in the house Gods command was fulfilled in circumcising them , as well as others , but baptism which is lawful to be set to none but taught persons Mat. 28. professed believers in token of remission of sins Act. 2. is ever voided , and abused when dispensed to infants , not onely because there is no command for such a thing , but also because there is no use of such a thing to such as those , for before they are made guilty of commission of sins , they neither do , can , nor need believe remission , and when having committed sins they believe them to be r●mitted , their infant-baptism being transient , and not permanent ( as circumcision was ) doth no way become visibly evident to them it self ; much less can it be a visible evidence to them of the other . Review . The reason of these objections against paedobaptism is this , because they understand not the nature of baptism , it is Gods seal , he sets it , they that receive it are passive , in that he appoints it to be set to whomsoever he hath made the promise , and with whom he hath entered into covenant : A seal of an estate made to infants in their cradles is firm , so is God's : Now here must be a sealing on the other side , for both parties must seal in a Covenant , we seal when we believe , John 3.33 . The Covenant is sealed on both sides when faith comes , God may set to his seal as he did to many of the Iewes , and the seed made void to them through unbelief . The End of Gods setting it to such as he foresaw would have no benefit of it , is the same with the making of his promises , and sending of his Sonne , to let them know how he would have received them , how sure his mercies should have been unto them , but they would not . Re-Review . The reason of all your Objectations against our way of baptism , and pleas for Paedo-Rantism which you practise is this , you understand not the nature of baptism : it is not Gods seal which he sets ( which you sillily suppose ) for that is his spirit only as I shewed you plainly enough above , but Gods sign which man sets , which they that receive aright , are not altogether passive in , but voluntary , and very active ; i. e. confessing their sins , calling on the name of the Lord , desiring to be baptized , professing faith in order thereunto , going down in●o the water with the dispenser , and there setting their senses and understandings on work upon the sign , and things thereby signified , submitting their bodies freely to the dispensation . Neither doth God appoint it to be set to whomsoever he hath barely made the promise , for in the word preached he makes it to every Creature Mark 16.15.16 . but to such as professedly believe in that promise he hath made , and visibly , verily ( for ought we can judge ) have entered into covenant with him to become obedient , such only ( so far as it is possible for us to know ) are those , with whom he hath entred into Covenant , for say you , there must be a sealing on the other side , and both parties must seal in a Covenant we seal when ( and not before ) we believe : neither is the Covenant sealed on both sides , so that it can be said these two parties are now entertained into covenant each with other , till faith come and that is not in infancy but after . And this your manner of speech ; viz. when faith comes , here implies to be your own opinion as well as ours , though else where as p. 3.4.8.9.15.16.17.18 . 19. you strenuously contend it , yea and ( to say the truth ) t is well nigh the whole businese of your book to assert and assay to prove it , that faith comes to infants in their infancy , and to make it appear to us ( as well as you can by contradiction ) that infants do believe . Moreover , ( if ever men were troubled with the simples , I think you are ) is baptism Gods seal of an estate , i. e. the heavenly inheritance made over to infants in their cradels ? and is that seal of his firm to , i. e , so sure that it cannot fail ? then I wonder how that seal , ( for so you still stile circumcision and baptism ) is made void and infirm to so many Iews and Christian people as it is , for not all , yea few of many do obtain that estate at last , and that most lose it for all that seal , you tell us by their unbelief : but I had thought you had been of the mind , when you wrote your 4th page , that children of Iews , and of believing parents did believe all without any exception ; for asserting it there positively that the Iews children did believe , and consequently that believers children do now , you prove the Antecedent viz. that the Iews children did believe , because God did witnesse it by setting to his seal circumcision , which if it were Gods seal to them of their eternall salvation by faith , and witnesse to the world that they had faith also , that seal must be firm , and that testimony true concerning them all , being set to all as well as some , so that unlesse they depart from the faith , which you say God who cannot ly , witnessed they once had ( and that your principle of not falling from faith will in no wise give way too ) they could not possibly void it by unbelief , and so must necessarily and universally obtain the inheritance : but sith t is most clear you selves also yielding it , that they do not , therefore assuredly one of these must be true viz. either that circumcision was not to infants in their cradels Gods seal of their eternal salvation ( as you say it was ) or else that that seal of God is not firm ( as you attest it is ) or else that God did not witnesse by it that those to whom it was set had faith ( as you say he did ) or else that Gods witnesse and testimony was not true ( which were blasphemy to think ) or else that they fell from that faith , which at first they had in infancy ; and at the time of their circumcision ( and that self confutes you in another case ) among all which grant which you will to be true , you must contradict and convict your selves of falshood . And lastly , if the end of Gods setting baptism to persons be no other then the very same with that of making his promises , and sending his son , meerly to let them know how he would have received them , how sure his mercies should have been unto them , but they would not , ( not to speak of your telling truth here unawares viz. that mans own will rejecting God first , and not Gods own will first rejecting them without respect to their fore-seen rejection of him in time , is the true cause of their condemnation ) then as God makes his promises to all , and sends his son in his love a Saviour to all , so baptism should be dispensed to all without exception , belonging as well as Christ himself , tell they appear finally to reject him , to every one as well as any one in the world , but that being denied by both you and us , doth shew that the end of baptizing a person is somewhat more viz. not to beget him to the faith before he doth , but to improve him in it when he doth believe . To conclude , this whole train of stuff or long tail of that short shower of shot that went before it , is not of so much force as a scottish mist , nor scarce enough to wet a naked man to the skin , therefore bear with my folly in sheelding my self so much against it , i. e. in saying so much in answer to it , for a wise man would have said no more to it but mumm . Review . The third argument is this . Those that have the holy spirit , that have faith , the Anabaptists will not deny but are the subjects of baptism , but children have so , as their justification declares , without which there is no salvation . Hence it is that the adversaries are put to their shifts to finde out a new way for the salvation of infants , dying in their minority viz. The presentment of the satisfaction of Christ without faith , otherwise they conclude they could not be saved ; which invention of theirs destroies the Gospel covenant , which is the righteousnesse of faith , and either damns innumerable innocents , whose right to the kingdom of heaven our Saviour hath declared ; or grounds their salvation upon a figment of their own brains , such as the Scriptures are wholly silent in , and the Churches of God never dreamed of . They alleadge two texts for their proof , Rom. 5.18 . As by the offence of one judgement came upon all to condemnation , so by the righteousnesse of one the free-gift came upon all men unto justification of life , Rom. 11.7 . Election hath obtained it : of which two texts , the latter is nothing for them , for it excludes not justification , for the Apoctle saith plainly , Rom. 8.30 . Those whom he predestinated he justified : and though the elect onely shall be saved , yet justification goes between . The former is directly against them , for it expressely mentions justification of life : so that the Anabaptists must either prove that justification is not to go before salvation , and so pull in pieces the golden chain , by taking out the link , Rom. 8.38 . or else that justification is not by faith , and so destroy the Covenant of the Gospel ; till when , they justly deserve the censure of damning all infants dying , contrary to evident testimony of Scriptures , and the sentence of our Saviour , that to them belongeth the kingdeme of heaven . And whosoever shall consider the impertinences of their proofs in a cause of so great consequence , shall have just cause to suspect all their other doctrines , and take heed how to take any thing upon trust from these new masters . Re-Review . Here is an argument hath neither head nor tail in it able to hurt , for both have bin bruised already , we having had to do with them before , the one in the front , the other in the rear of the disputation : therefore no need , to fear it , yet sith it turns about again and Reviews us , hisses in ou● faces , and makes such a flutter , as if it would both bite and sting us to death , I shall secure it a little further how ever . The head of the argument is this syllogism viz. Such as have the holy spirit , and faith are the subjects of baptism , but children have so . The first proposition whereof you say the Anabaptists will not deny , but I tell you what the Anabaptists will do I know not , because , if there be such a people in the world , yet I never was so privy to their principles and practises as Dr. Featley and his fellows pretend to be , who paints them out , and presents them to the world in his title page as dipping naked , and daily : But in the name of 100s of them you commonly and abusively call so , I mean the truest baptists that are in England , I le be so bold as to deny it to be true without more , for t is not the inward unseen seeds of grace and faith , nor that invisible having of these , which is the u●most you dare or do affirm concerning infants , but the visible having thereof , so that we see they have them by the fruits , effects , acts , opperations , and professions , that quoad nos makes a subject for baptism : as for what is within it is nothing to us , we are strangers to it , neither can or may we intermeddle therewith , till it shews it self without : secret things belong to God onely , and things revealed onely to us , and therefore for your blind brazen faced minor , wherein you positively affirm here again , that children ( not specifying what children , nor whose , whether of believers or unbelievers , nor both , nor if of believers onely , whether all or onely some of them ) have the spirit , and faith , I shall be as bold to deny it ever , till they give some better specimen of it then the best infant that ever you or I saw did , in that nonage wherein you sprinkle them , specially so long as to the stark spoiling , utter unsaying and clear contradicting of whatever your own selves would prove it by , you are fain to confesse page 16. That all have them not , and p. 18. Which have and which have n●● ( the spirit being no more bound to believers infants , then others , and no more bar'd from working in unbelievers infants than believers ) cannot be certainly presumed , and that whatever the spirit may work in children , yet this is not known to us , so that there can be no conclusion made . And howbeit this Argument being by your own concession thus crushed in the head , i. e. this Prosyllogism turns about with his tail , and thrusts at us therewith , I mean this ensuing Syllogism , viz. No Iustification nor salvation to them that have not faith . But justification and salvation is to infants . Ergo infants have faith . Yet I return thus to your Major , viz. that though there is no justification nor salvation , without faith , of such as are capable to believe , and of whom to believe it is required , yet of such as neither are capable , nor called on to believe in order thereunto , there may be , and is a justification and salvation without it : and this is the case of all dying infants in the world , the presentment of the satisfaction of Christ without faith , and without obedience also in any thing else , both which are in ordine ad vitam injoined to adult ones , doth save dying infants or else innumerable of those infants are damned , neither is this any new way for the salvation of infants dying in minority , nor a grounding their salvation upon a sigment , and invention of our own braines , nor such as the Scripture is altogether silent in , nor such as destroyes the Gospel Covenant , which is the righteousness of faith : for howbeit it is true that the Scripture runs on this wise , saying , The just shall live by faith , he that believes shall be saved , he that believes not shall be damned , and to him that worketh not , but believeth on him that justifyeth the ungodly , his faith shall be accounted unto him for righteousnesse , and twenty more such like expressions of the Gospel Covenant , Rom. 1. Rom. 3. Iohn 3. &c. as that which gives righteousnesse , and life by faith only , without the works of the Law , yet I beseech you set your wits on work , and see whether these Scriptures were written of infants , or to them either , or whether only of , and to mens at years only , to shew unto them on what terms the Lord will accept , and save them in the Covenant and promise of the Gospel : Me thinks your own reason should dictate thus much , that all those places speak no more of infants , then they speak to them in minority , and that you will assuredly yield that they do not ; yea you may as well say these places , viz. T is a people that have no vnderstanding , therefore he that made them will not save them , and he that formed them will shew them no mercy , and the lord Iesus shall come with flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God , and obey not his Gospel , and that because they received not the truth in the love thereof , that they might be saved , for this cause God shall send them strong delusions to believe lies that they all might be damned , who had pleasure in unrighteousnesse &c. who ere transgresseth and abideth not in the the doctrine of Christ hath not God ; every soul that heareth not the voice of that Prophet shall be destroyed , with the mouth confession is made unto salvation , and an hundred such like as speak of an necessity of good works as well as of faith , viz. self-denyall , taking up the cross and following Christ &c. speak of and to infants in non age , while they know not their right hand from their left . But Sirs oh that you would once understand ( for then all your intricacies , sottish , and absurd assertions , and disputes about infants would be ended , and save you a world of perplexity that now you are in by the ignorance of it ) that the word was not written as the way , and will of God concerning infants in infancy , but concerning men and women , in order to their salvation by Christ , Iohn 6.39.40 . And this Sirs , is no other answer then you use to give us , when we argue against infants believing thus , viz. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word preached . But infants cannot hear so as to know Christ by the word preached . Ergo infants cannot believe . You tell us true ; faith in Adultis can come no other way but by preaching , but in Infantibus faith is begotten otherwise , so you fancy , but you have no Scripture for it , as we have that faith comes no way but by hearing . Babist . But that Scripture Rom. 10. speaks only of the way of faiths comming to adult ones . Baptist , So say I of welnigh the whole body of Scripture , it speaks of the way , wherein men at years must expect to be justifyed and saved , and not of infants , for they may be saved without faith , so when we plead with you against the baptizing of infants ( I mean such of you , and such there be amongst you as are ashamed , as well as some that are not , to say that infants have faith ) we tell you the Scripture speaks only of baptism of persons confessing sin , professing faith , that faith and baptism use still to go together , as he that believeth and is baptized ; the Corinthians hearing , believed and were baptized , if thou believest with all thy heart &c. therefore those that believe not may not be baptized : you tell us again of these places , and of all that ever we bring out of Scripture , where baptism is mentioned , that they speak of adult persons , of whom t is confessed by you that faith and confession , and profession is required in order to baptism , but not of infants that cannot perform them . So Pareus in Vrsin Cate. p. 384. 385. and also many others , and your answer is very true , and grants all that we desire , for indeed all the places , where ever baptism is mentioned throughout the Scripture , do speak of it as in relation to grown persons , and not to infants , therefore because the Scripture is wholly silent in such a thing , we dare not meddle to baptize infants , but as we grant your answer to be true , so I hope you will grant it to be as true in our present case , for if some of you , when we call for faith to a persons baptism , or else deny that person to be baptized , say thus , viz. true , no baptism without faith of such of whom faith is required , and who are capable to act it , i. e. of men at years , but infan●s being uncapable to act faith , and it being not required of them , therfore they may be baptized without it ( which conclusion you make without book to , for the word warrants you not to make it ) why may not we , when you call so universally for faith to every ones salvation , or else saying assuredly they are damned , return the like , viz true , no salvation without faith of persons capable to act it , and of whom it s required , but infants being uncapable to act it , and it being not required of them , therefore they may be saved without it . Babist . This conclusion is spoken without book , and as unwarrantable by the Scripture as you say ours ●s , sith the Scripture speaks as much of salvation by faith , as of baptism upon faith ; and as little of salvation without faith , as it doth of baptism without it , therefore still we have at least as good ground to say infants may be baptized without faith , as you have to assert they may be saved without it . Baptist. No : I shall leave you behind here , for sith the Scripture speaks of the impossibility of infants believing , and yet with all of their saluation , as your selves confesse in your own interpretation of that clause viz. of such is the kingdome of heaven , but no where at all of their baptism , it shews that they may be saved without believing , but shews not that they may be baptized without it ; besides to hold any of them to be damned , before they have by actual sin debard themselves of salvation is abominable cruelty , and breach of Christian charity with you , who yet confesse that all of them have not faith p. 19. but to hold they need not to be baptized cannot bear the like construction , sith t is acknowledged by them that deny their bap●ism , and by them also who absurdly assert , to the contradiction of themselves , that the denyal of baptism to them denies all hope of their salvation that they may be saved nevertheless , though they die unbaptized , so that whether we , who hold that to them all belongs the kindome of heaven though they neither believe nor are baptized , before they die , or you that hold no salvation to them without faith , and yet hold that all of them have not , nay that very few of them ( for how few are believers infants to others ? ) have faith , whether we or you I say do justly deserve the censure of damning all , or at least innumerable infants dying , contrary to that evident testimony of Scripture , and sentence of our Saviour , that to them belongeth the kingdome of heaven , and contrary also to the rule of Christian charity set us by your selves , which is to presume well of every infant that he is in a good estate , till he appear to be in a bad , and by actual sin to bar himself , and deserve exemption from the general state of little children declared in Scripture , which is this that they have right to the kingdome , let the most simple , but honest Reader judge between us . As for the two texts you say are brought in proof of justification of infants without faith viz. Rom. 5.18 . Rom. 11.7 . who urges the last of them I know not , for my part I take it to be of no tendency at all either to your purpose or ours , therefore I shall not trouble my self with it , but the first of them , which you say is so directly against us , t is because you are blind , if you do not perceive it to be an express downright declaration of a general justification of all from Adams sin , as to life , i. e. a resurrection from that bodily death , which that sin brought upon all mankind , and from which as there is now a universal return of every individual by Christ , so there had never bin any returning for any one man in the world , but by Christ to all eternity world without end , 1 Cor. 15.21.22 . Yea as universally as that judgement or condemnation to that first death came by Adam upon all men , so that it spreads its black wings upon them all , and brings them all down to the dust from whence they came , so universally is justification unto life i. e the benefit and resurrection from that death , from which else no one man should ever have risen , come by Christ upon all men , really and truly , and not onely so , but a capacity also , and possibility of eternal happinesse and well being after that resurrection , and all this whether persons believe it yea or no , yea and a promise and certainty of it in case of belief in this Christ , otherwise indeed a losse of the Resurrections becoming a mercy , and benefit to them , and a lyablenesse even after that escape of the first death , that came by the first Adam , to a sorer , even that second death , that lake of fire , which by the second Adam , by whom comes eternal blessednesse on believers , comes upon all unbelievers , and that for ever . So that if there be no salvation to infants without justification , yet ther 's justification of infants without faith , or baptism either . And whereas you argue from the cart to the horse , from the justification and salvation of infants to their faith , I argue from their non capacity to believe to their justification and salvation without it : no salvation or justification without faith , say you , but infants are justified and saved therefore they believe : if no justification and salvation without faith , say I , infants , who cannot believe can neither be justified nor saved : but infants , so farre as they need justification , for they have no sins of their own , are justified and saved also , for the kingdome of heaven belongs to them , therefore there is justification and salvation for infants without faith . To conclude therefore : this opinion of you adversaries to the truth , which allows no salvation to infants without faith , puts you miserably to your shifts viz. either to find out a new way of coming by faith , which Paul saies comes onely by hearing , or else to damn innumerable dying infants , who whilest they lived , were uncapable to hear the word preached , and so to believe , or else ▪ as you do p. 18. to dream out a new kind of hearing , whereby infants come by their faith , viz. an inward , wonderful miraculous hearing of some voice of the spirit within , such a sigment of your own brains , as the Scripture is wholly silent in , and no true Church of God , nor rational man , but your selves , who dream dreams , and divine ●alse divinations , and things of nought , deceits of your own heart , and tell them to the deceiving of others , did ever dream of ; and whosoever shall consider the impertinencies of your proofs in a cause of so great consequence , shall have just cause to suspect all your other doctrines , and to take heed how they take any thing any more upon trust , as the whole world hath done now of old , from these new masters , the Clergy , who instead of being ministers in truth , or servi servorum dei , have bin domini dominorum Lords over the heritage , and over the faith of all civil powers and people , teaching them instead , of the true doctrine of the old ministers , the traditions and commandements of men . And so I have done both with the head of this third argument , and with that long tail also that trails after , there remains no more of it to be meddled with , but a certain slender sting that sticks to this tail , put forth against us , with more length then strength , in prosecution of the argument , which I shall cut out into many pieces , and after set upon each section severally , and then I hope your great hope of help from these three unworthies , will prove a forlorn hope indeed . Review . But to prosecute this Argument for the full satisfaction of the simple but honest Reader , since there is no way to come to salvation but by justification , and no justificatnon but by faith , why should it be doubted by any but little infants , which are ordained to salvation , are also by faith made subjects of justification ? those soules which please God so well as they are to see him presently after their separation from the body , why should they not be capable of faith , without which the Apostle saith it is impossible to please God , Heb. 11.6 . Re-Review . The Reader had need be honest , for I dare say he will be simple enough , that receives full satisfaction your way by your present prosecutions of it ; because there 's no way for salvation and justification for men that are actual sinners , and capable to believe , and to whom justification and remission is preached , to the end that they might believe it to their comfort , is there therefore no other way wherby God willing , and ordaining to save little infants from eternal wrath , can possibly , or doth certainly save them , that can neither sin , or be preacht to , nor believe , but that very self same way of believing ? is he tied to that means to save infants by , as we are tied to it in order to the saving of our selves , viz. the way of faith ? if so , why not to repentance , and self denial also ? for both these are the way to us , Act. 2.38.40 . Mat. 16.24 . and would it not shift a man out of his seven sences to hear such doctrine , that infants as ever they will be saved ( dying infants ) must even in their infancy repent ? is it not manifold more suitable to reason , and sense of Scripture that as infants ( so far as they are guilty ) become guilty unwittingly to themselves , by the presentment and imputation of the first Adams sin , without personal disobedience in themselves , so also should be justified from that imputed sin , by the presentment of the satisfaction and imputation of the righteousness of the second Adam , as unwittingly to , and without personal obedience in themselves ? and because without faith t is impossible to please God , for such as have actually incurred his wrath , such as come to him by prayer , for these indeed must believe that is God , and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him ) ther fore is it impossible for infants also who yet actually disspensed him , nor yet are capable to come to him by belief or prayer . Is that Scripture think you intended to infants ? for shame scope the Scripture a little better . Review . Is it not the work of the spirit to infuse faith ? and are not soules which are all equall in their creation the subject of it ? He works indeed where he will , and therefore all have it not ▪ for the spirit of God is not bound but where he will work it who can hinder him . Re-Review . Are soules all equal in their Creation , and are souls which are all equal the subject of faith ? how then can it be so positively asserted , concluded , attempted to be discovered , and made appear as t is by you , who confess also that all have it not , that the infants of believers have it and therefore must be baptized , but infidels infants have it not , and there must not ? specially since not only the one , by by your own saying that all souls are equall , are as capable of it as the other , if the spirit please to infuse it , but also since by your own saying too , the spirit works it where he will , and is not bound i. e. ( as you explain this place p. 18. ) to work it in all the children of Christian parents , nor barred from working it in any of the children of infidels , and most especially yet , since p. 18. you say that unlesse it could be certainly presumed what children have the habit of faith , what have not , the working of the spirit being not known to us , he being not bound nor bard there can be no conclusion made . Have not we as much power to forbid the spirits working faith in the infant you sprinkle , and so to forbid their being baptized as you have to forbid his working it in the infants of infidels , and to forbid their being baptized ? will you bind him to all the infants in Christendome , and barr him from doing any other infants in the world ? O ye house of Levi is the spirit of the Lord thus streitned ? are these your doings ? you that preach the spirit of the Lord is not bound nor barred , do not you both bind and bar him , while you say and suppose he must needs , and is by the Gospel covenant bound to be gracious , and shew mercy to believers children , alias such as are born in England , Scotland and other nations of Christendome , so that you may safely sign them all as heirs of his mercy , and barred from saving any infants of Turks and Pagans , so that not one of them may be signed forsomuch as an hopeful heir of salvation . Review . John Baptist had not been filled with the holy spirit had he had not faith Luke 1.15 . the Scripture shews us plainly in that one example what the soul of infants is capable of , what the spirit of God can work in that , it was the measure only of his gifts , makes his example extraordinary , the spirit and power of Eliah in which he came : The testimony of an Angel renders it undoubted concerning him . The Testimony of the Scriptures concerning other infants are of equal authority saying , They have right to the kindome of Heaven , and that they are called to come to Christ , and that Christ received them and blessed them ; compared with that of the Apostle , 2 Cor. 13.5 . Iesus Christ is in you except ye be Reprobates ? The Argument is this , They are not Reprobates . Ergo Christ is in them . Re-Review Not to trouble the world with a Re-Review of every odd conceit , that lies in this piece of Review about that particular instance , and extraordinary case of Iohn , which you mightily misunderstand , and most rudely wrest in as ordinary rule in proof of an universal ; and also about the proof of believers infants , being no reprobates from 2 Cor. 13.5 . a place most absurdly abused by you , for it speaks not to nor of infants , and if it did , no more of one infant then of an another , no infants appearing reprobates in infancy , and of their right to heaven above all infants , all which passages being spoken to above may be reviewed there by any that have a mind to it , the utmost intent and drift of this whole Section is to prove infants to be capable of faith , which thing if it should be granted for truth , yet I wonder how that redound● to infant-baptism , since it s neither bare capacity , nor actuality of believing , but professing to believe , that is our warrant to dispense baptism to any subject , for i● will not follow from the having of faith to bap●ism , unlesse that faith be professed , much lesse will it follow from a capableness to believe or have faith , that a person hath it and therefore must be baptized . For then first heathen infants are as capable of it as other infants , all souls being equall in their Creation , therefore they must be baptized also , yea Sirs , if you give back , and let your Argument fall so low now , as to say infants are capable of faith and therefore must be baptized before they have , or appear to have it , then I le warrant every ones right to baptism as well as any ones , thus , viz. The souls of men and women are capable of faith before they believe , and whether ever they do believe or no , the spirit of God can work it in them . Therefore men and women before they believe , or whether they believe or no , must be baptized . Yea all souls are as capable subjects of faith as well as the souls of believers infants , and therefore must be baptized . But Sirs though persons be not only capable subjects to believe , but such also as ( for ought you know to the contr●ry ) do believe , and of whom you cannot say they do not , yet may you not at all baptize them , w●thout some kind of evidence that they do ; and that 's more then in particular any infant can give for it self ; and as for that muddy manner you argue it in when you say , the Kingdome of heaven consists of infants , they are called to come to Christ , and Christ received them , therefore they must be baptized besides that those indefinit expressions ex●end no more to believers infants then unbelievers , we may as well argue thus , the Kingdome of heaven consists of men , men and women have right to it , are called to come to Christ , received and blessed by him , therefore men and women , or these men and women , whether it be evident of them in perticular or individuo yea or no , may be baptized , which were absurd non-sense in the abstract : yet such are your pleas for those particular infants you sprinkle , whilest you deny baptism to heathen infants , viz. the testimony of Scripture in gross , and infants capablenesse to have the inward baptism , and such like : on this wise did Dr. Channel at Petworth dispute Ian. 5. 1651. saying , If infants are capable of the inward baptism , then they may have the out ward . But &c. And could not prove the consequence or sequel of his Major four times over repeated by himself , and as often denyed by his Respondent . Review . The difficultie in the understanding how faith should be bred in them , and after what manner , is that which hath bred the doubts about their having it ; but if we had learned to believe the Scriptures , which by necessary consequence confirm the thing , we would leave the manner of doing it to him whose work it is , the spirit of God , who is able to do it : we do it in other articles of faith , and the resurrection of the body , and ask not how it can be done , because the Scriptures have delivered it ; and this of the renovation of soul is no lesse Miracle . Re-Review . And well may it be difficult to understand how faith should be bred in infants , and doubted that they have it not , since if we have learned to believe the Scriptures , they are so far from confirming such a thing so much as by any possible , or probable consequence , that by necessary consequence they contradict it , while they tell us that there is but one way whereby faith cometh , and that such a one as it can never possibly come to infants in , viz. hearing the word of God preached , not inwardly by the spirit only ( as you prate below ) for he speaks not of such a thing there Rom. 10. but outwardly by some visible , or audible creaturely ministration , as is plain by the words foregoing , viz. How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? how hear without a preacher ? how preach except they be sent . And whereas you tell us the spirit is able to work faith in them , therefore we must leave the manner of doing it to him , not offering as it were to pry into it . Good Sirs spare your labor & talk not about the unknown manner , of a matter as unknown as the other : for the thing it self is not yet clear in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , neither doth the spirits ability to do it , prove that it is done , any more then it proves there is a 1000 worlds , or that all men have faith , because these things are possible to be effected by him , but the evidence that he doth such a thing , which if it be wanting ( as it is in this case ) it is but egregious folly to argue it from the other , so as to say God can do it , therefore though the manner how he doth it is not known to us , yet we must not meddle further then to believe it is , leaving the manner of doing it to him . Moreover Sirs , assure your selves of this that in some sort the manner is usually manifested to us in the word , as well as the matter of such things , as we are there called upon to believe , even that miraculous work of the resurrection of the body , which is your present instance , wherein 1 Cor. 15.35 . to the end . the Lord condescendeth at large to explain the manner o● it , as well as to prove the matter of it before : and whereas you say you leave the manner of the doing things when it is nor clear to you , to the spirit himself , whose the work is , in other articles of faith , I wonder you are so forgetful as to bear such false witnesse as this against your selves , when as in the point of dying infants salvation , which for the matter of it is so clear , that you cannot deny it , though not clear to you in the manner , you leave not the manner of it to God himself , whose work it is to save them , but limit him to the way of Church-membership , faith , baptism , and holinesse &c. whereas the word , that was not at all for infants instruction , declares to men and women what way he will save them in , asking in many places of your book , how can infants be justified without faith ? how can Turks and Pagans infants be saved ? what hopes of our infant salvation without baptism ? and all this too , though there is no fear of their damnation by actual sin , though it also ask you plainly enough , how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard , and consequently how can they be saved by faith ? though it tell you also plainly enough Act. 8. where that question is expressely askt what hinders &c. even because they yet believe not with all their heart , you had said true therefore had your words bin thus viz. we do it not in other articles of faith . And whereas you say the renovation of a soul is no lesse miracle then the matter of infants having faith , it seems you confesse it to be a miracle , that faith should be in infants : and for my part I fully conf●sse it with you , for surely t is such a thing as was seldome or never yet seen since the world began to this day : but the renovation i. e. conversion of soules of men , and women depraved , and corrupted ( as infants never were by any actual sin p. 5. ) is no lesse miracle indeed then the other : for the one is not at all , and the other where it is , is yet no miracle at all , but a matter that happens ever and anon in the ordinary course of things , as a miracle doth not , and besides you are of those I am sure , who are in the mind that miracles are ceased . And lastly , for you to sprinkle all the new born infants in all the Christian nations at this hour , as taking it for granted that these all have faith ( for so you suppose ( though you see not any individual or particular infant hath it , that is brought to you ) and yet hold infants faith to be a miracle , and yet to hold miracles to be ceased also , it is , if not miraculum , yet mirandum monstrum et horrendum , at least to me i. e. a marvelous work and a wonder that ever the wisdome of wise men should so perish , and the understanding of prudent men so come to nought . Thus having done with your forlorn hope , I le march on now to give checkmate to that wretched crew of cavillers , that are so impudent , as to be responsive against reason and its Regiment , and to undertake to make it good against them , that infants have faith , and must have baptism . Review . The objection that reason makes against it will easily be answered , it is done for satisfaction to the Reader . Re-Review . Yea Sirs ? is Reason in so little request with you , as that you not onely dare so audaciously ingage against , but also set so light by it , as to say its objections are easily answered ? let it be put to the vo●e if you please throughout the whole earth , whether you deserve the title of good Logicians i. e. Reasonable men , who here professedly wrestle against reason it self , and whether your faith can possibly be found any other then faction and meer fiction , against which Reason it self is by your selves confest to be opponent . I confesse I have heard men ( called divines ) speak of many points of Religion and faith as above reason , but I yet never met with men under the name of ministers , so far devoid of Reason , as to say that Religion and faith are against Reason , till I met with you , whose faith and practise of baptism to believers infants ( upon account of their appearing to believe , more plainly then the profession of persons at years can make it appear of themselves ) is , as seems by your selves , a faith and practise against Reason , why else doth reason object against it . Indeed the Papists a●e so unreasonable in sundry articles of their faith that they hold some things not onely above but against Reason , and that 's t●e worst that can be said of the most absurd , and ●bominable tenets that are amongst them , and that is so bad , that even thereupon the Protestant priesthood finds occasion enough to abhor them , witnesse their Tenet of transubstantiation , or real presence of Christs very body in the supper , of which when we say how can this be ? its not onely against other articles of faith viz. his bodily ascention , session , and local mansion in heaven , but also against common sense and reason , it being in reason impossible , that one body should be at once in two places , as well as in consubstantiation it is for two distinct bodies viz. the bread and Christs body to be at once in one place , they say much what as you say here , and in the lines above viz. that howbeit its difficult to understand how it should be so in Reason , yet if we had learnt to believe the Scriptures , which in plain terms assert the thing , saying of the bread this is my body , we would believe it , and leave the manner of its being so to him who saies it , with whom all things are possible , as we do in the articles of faith e g. the resurrection of the body , not asking how it can be because the Scriptures have declared it . The Reformists tell them again that the resurrection of the dead is a thing not onely in respect of God , who can do all things ( save such as imply imperfection , as to lie , and die , &c. and contradiction , for its impossible utterly that pure contradictories should be both true ) but also in respect of the thing it self possible to be effected , but the ubiquity , and the actual universal eating of one and the same numerical body , and so smal a body too as that of Christs , and at one and the same time , in so many several places , are matters and fancies savouring of such contradiction , and so adverse to the very nature of God , that as Kekerman system . log . p. 42. saies , Ne deus quidem producere potest ; et logica eas e suis excludit ordinibus : such as God doth not , and Reason knows not . O but saith the Papists , nothing but humane reason judges this impossible and repugnant to other articles of faith : to whom among other things our Divines use to reply , that in matters of religion , and faith , and things of God , reason is not to be laid aside , as if we were to bring bare bruit sence i. e. blind implicit faith onely to the word of God , but to be used by us , that we may thereby , as without which we cannot , distinguish truth from falshood : yea to speak yet in the very words of your own author in this case , I mean Vrsins Catachise , to which you send us , whose these words mostly are , which I have already spoken , see page 414.415 . For even therefore was reason given us of God , that we might by the light of the mind discover contradictory opinions , and clearly understanding what is agreeable to the word of God , and what repugnant to it , may imbrace this , and refuse that : Hoc nisi firmum maneat , nullum erit dogma tam absurdum , &c. Vnlesse this stand for granted , no opinion , though never so absurd , and impious , yea nothing in the sincks of all hereticks , though never so impure and monstrous , can be confuted out of the holy Scripture ; for hereticks , and deceivers will reply , their opinions do not contradict the word of God , but onely it seems so to humane reason . You see then how among your own writers , the foundation of faith and true religion , is laid not onely in the Scripture as the rule and fountain whence we fetch all , but secondarily in sound Reason also , improved in way of trial of things by it , as without which no use can be made of Scripture : so that though some Divines proclaim it to the whole world ( for so do your selves in this place ) that Reason it self is against them in their way , and consequently that their way is against Reason , and many Divines confesse their faith and religion in some articles , and particles of it to be above Reason ( which is but a gentle-gigg too , if by above Reason they mean so , as that Reason cannot comprehend how they are , at least conceive them possible so to be ) yet however farewel such a faith for ever for me , as Reason fights with , and far be it from me either to do , or believe any thing against reason : for as they that see not good ground in reason to believe what they believe , can never be alwayes ready ( as every Christian ought ) to render a reasonable answer to such as ask them a Reason of the faith that is in them , and are at best but implicit in believing , so they , who believe not only without , and beyond , but even against Reason it self , opposing them in their faith , are most unreasonable believers indeed : and such as shall find , that Reason ( as easily as they think t is answered ) will make good what objection it makes against the most unreasonable of them all : but to leave this , and to come to the discourse or ratiocination it self , which followes between Reason and reasonlese , for what else can I fitly stile such an Antagonist , as stiffens himself against Reason , and counts it nothing to refute it ? yea t is done here in your Review for satisfaction to the Reader ( as you say ) but t is undone again in the Re-review to the undeception of the deceived and the deceiver . The objections of Reason , and replies of reasonlesse and re-replies of Reasons friend are as followes . Review . 1 Infants have no knowledge of good , or evil , Ergo no faith . By the same reason they should be denied to have the faculty of understanding , the exercise of their faculty they have not , no more have they of their faith , not the act but the habit , as was said before . Re-Review . Good Sirs , consider what a reasonlesse reply to reason this is . For if by faith you mean only a faculty of believing , what ever in time may be told them , which is the adaequate object of faith in general , that is in all reasonable creatures : and is de esse to them , universally , innate in them , as a part of the rationall soul , as well as the faculty of remembring what in time they may hear , and of willing , and chosing what in time may be propounded to them and of understanding what in time may be taught them ; but what is all this to your purpose , who plead faiths being in some infants onely , not in all : when as faith in that sense is as much in all infants as in some , and would ( if it could at all entitle such as have it to baptism ) entitle all mankind to baptism as well as some , sith all have the faculty of believing things ( as beasts which are meerly sensitive have not ) flowing naturally from the rationall soul in man ? But if by faith you mean restrictively , that faith in special , whose adequate object is the word of God preached , in the promise and precept of it , which onely makes us subjects of salvation and baptism , dare you say that t is of equal necessitie , and certainty that faith in such a sense is in infants , as the faculty of Rea●on , and understanding is ? so that by the same Reason that we deny one of these to be in them , it may be therefore denied that they have the other ? and that their non knowledge of good or evill will as much prove them to be habitually no reasonable creatures , as it proves them to be habitually no true believers of the Gospel ? For shame Sirs blot out and abjure this absurdity , for you cannot but know that the faculty of understanding in man is Habitus a naturâ innatus , a habit ingendred in them in very nature , yea in all mankind necessarily , & qua id ipsum : but your selves say faith , in the sense in which we speak of it , is but Habitus infusus , a habit infused , and that into some only , for all say you have it not , and I say t is Habitus acquisitus , rather an acquired habit , which comes if not without the gift of God to persons therein , yet also in that way of hearing the word , which on our parts is first done , in order to its being begotten in us , whereby we come to know good and evil first , i. e. to be convinced of sin and guilt in our selves , and righteousness and mercy in God , through Jesus Christ , and then to have faith in him to justification : in this therefore Reason remains unrefuted , and rather routs you , then is routed by you . Review . 2. Their dislike at baptism testifyed by their crying : if they had faith they could endure it with much patience . The same reason might be brought against circumcision , children , when they felt the pain , it is likely cried as much : Besides , we must denie faith to be in the best of Gods children , if their sense under the cross , and their complaing of it be an argum●nt to conclude against it : against the weaknesse of faith it may , not against the being . Re-Review . Had circumcision bin administred on perswasion that the subjects to whom it was set were believers ( as baptism is to be Acts 8. ) this same reason might have been brough also against infants circumcision , though I must confesse it to be the least among an 100 that in reason may be brought to disprove infants believing , and therefore possibly you ( whom I observe sometimes to set up a man of straw , of least strength to annoy you , and then to shew your skill in fencing at him ) have singled out this easie opposite to encounter with ; and yet ( so far as I see ) you do not ( as the proverb is ) give him as he brings neither : but circumcision , as is we●l known , well-nigh to every body but your selves , was dispensed to persons upon a far different account from this , viz. meerly on their being males of a Jewish houshold , and sometimes one a more slender acquaintance with Abrahams family then so , witness the whole City of the Shechemites , whose males were all all circumcised on meer hopes of their princes mariage with Iacobs daughter : but t was not dispensed as you senselessly suppose it was on supposition of its subjects having faith : for as there was not present evidence to any body that any of those infants that were signed had faith , so ( for all your childish conclusion p. 4. that the children of the Jewes had faith , witness their circumcision , therefore the children of believing parents have now ) by ●uture experience t was evident to every body that they had it not : how else came they to be complained on in general , when at years , as a body of wicked ones , and unb●lievers , unlesse you will say they lost , and fell from their faith , as I am sure you dare not , and for my part I cannot say they did , except I could see more clearly then yet I do see , or you can ever make me see that at first they had it . As for your further following flim-flam , wherein you tell us that we must deny faith to be in the best of Gods children , as well as in little children , if their sense under the cross and their complaining of it be an Argument to conclude against their faith ; I give you to understand Sirs , that its an ignorant inconsequence , and so you will your selves discern it to be , by then you have weighed what a difference there is , between that voluntary submission , which by the power of faith in the Saints is acted , and yielded to the cross , and yoak of Christ , in either circumcision or baptism , or any other difficult duty , or dispensation , service or suffering they are called to for Christs sake , and that forced and not more unpleasant then unwelcome imposition of it , that is made when that cross , or yoak , viz. the affliction , or pain of circumcision or baptism , is put upon the necks of infants , for the one freely choses it , when they have the liberty to refuse and decline it , if they please , and therefore though they have some sense out to the flesh , no affliction being joyous , but grievous , yet are so far from complaining of it , that they rather comply with it of their own accord , as counting it better then to be without it , witnesse Moses , who by faith chose rather affliction and reproach with Christ , as deeming these better then the pleasures and treasures of Egypt , which were at his choice as well as these , but the other , i. e. infants are so far from offering themselves to either dutie , or difficulty for Christ , as by faith esteeming it better so to do then to escape , that they rather are solely sensible of the smart , so as to gainsay , refuse and avoid it what they can , but onely that will they nill they , men make them bear it , and cross them whether they will or no ; neither can infants by faith choose , well-come or delight in either the disease that is by dipping , or the sore that seconds circumcision , but suffer both full sore against their wills ; and whereas you say the sense of the cross may conclude against the weaknesse of faith , not against the being : that clause reasons Reasonlesly against Reason indeed , for it hath neither good sense nor reason in it to your own purpose , or ours either ▪ the best I can make on it for your turn is to suppose it a meer mistake , and that 's the least a man so concerned to meddle with it as I am , can well say of it , for surely Sirs if I read it right , you write it wrong , and set down your mind in words , the sense whereof is just contrary to your meaning : for certainly you would or at least should have said [ Against the strength or greatness of faith and you say [ Against the weakness of it ] if this were but lapsus Calami , when t was penned , yet t was lapsus animi , and Error mentis too , to let it passe uncorrected , when t was printed ; but most of all when t was corrected after the presse : for verily among all the printers mistakes , which you hint to me in that corrected copy you sent me , when you summoned me to answer your Pamphlet , there 's no mention of this mistake of the penman , who cannot impute this as an oversight , of the printer but of the overseers themselves , which weakness ( to conclude with you in your own kind ) may serve to conclude against the exercise , and eminency of your Reason , though not against the being of Reason in you at all . Review . 3 Why are they not after admitted to the supper ? Because the Apostle expressely requires of every one that comes to examine himself 1 Cor. 11.28 . If any such thing were required of all that are to be baptized , they might lawfully be barred from that . Re-Review . Here reason demands of you why after baptism you admit not infants to the supper ? and good reason too for cui signum et signatum , is a pigg of your own sow , and I add ; cui admissio , et accessio per , et post baptismum , cui incorporatio , ei continuatio , progressio , corporis communio fractione panis , et precibus , Acts 2.42 . cui nativitas ei facultas auctrix , nutrix ; et quare non nutrimentum ? He that hath the thing signified ( as infants of believers appear it seems to have to you , but not to us more then other infants i. e. indeed not at all ) must have the sign , he that hath membership must have fellowship in things pertaining to the body , he that is once born growes , and is nourished , yea ( to speak in Mr. Blakes phrase ) being of the houshold , they must have of the food of the houshold , the stewards of the mysteries of God must be accountable in case they do deny it , why therefore should not infants have the supper ? Babist . In answer to which I tell you that baptism is an initial sacrament of our spiritual birth , and entrance onely into the Church , of both which infants being capable , in token thereof must be baptized so soon as they are born , specially of spiritual parents ( though that be but a fleshly birth neither , that hath no more appearance of the spirit , or spiritualnesse in it then is in the birth of the children of the most carnall in the world ) but the supper is a sacrament of our spiritual growth , nourishment , continuance , further establishment &c. of which infants being not so capable , are consequently not capable of the supper till they come to age , and become men of some growth . Baptist. As if there is not a growth ensuing every birth , even the spiritual as well as the naturall , and as if every babe as well spiritually as naturally born , doth not continue , and desire the sincere milk i. e. to suck and receive nourishment and relief , as if Mr. Blake were out ( and so I suppose he is , but not that he supposes himself so to be ) in saying to the confutation of his fellow helpers ( as he doth p. 32. ) that children of believers have such timly knowledge of God , as to be sucking in somewhat of him , whilst they suck milk from the breast , which if it be true , then if one sign belong to them , the other doth also , because the things signified severally in both do belong , and they are as capable to eat , and to drink as to be dipt , and to know the meaning of one as of the other , and in order to the one i. e. the supper as capable to examine themselves , as to believe with all their hearts in order to the other i. e. baptism , why therefore not have that sacrament of their spiritual nourishment , as well as that sacrament of their spiritual birth ? but if it be false , then ( besides the untruth of Mr. Blakes testimony ) there is sure no such thing in infants as spirituall growth and nourishment , and so consequently in infancy no spiritual birth neither , and so no right in token of either to be admitted , either to one sacrament or the other : but your reply to Reason in this place is this viz. self-examination is to praecede in the subjects of the supper , no such matter in the subjects of baptism . No Sirs ? are not repentance from dead works , and belief towards God with all the heart , and confession of sins , and calling on God such kind of matters ? is not self-examination ever praevious to repentance Lam. 3.40 . Let us search , and try , and turn , was there ever any confession of sin without it ? yet these things are all required in order unto baptism . Doth not Philip to one that askt him this question , why may I not be baptized ? return this answer , if thou believest with all thy heart thou mayest ? and doth not that imply that else he might not ? as much as let a man examine himself , and so let him eat , is as much as to say or else he may not . Babist . That was spoken by Philip first to a man , and not to an infant , secondly , to one man onely , and not to all . Baptist. Was not that of Paul spoken of man onely at years ? yet is it reckoned by you exclusive of infants , and why not Philips also ? Secondly if Philip spake but to one single man , and Ananias to another , when the one said if thou believest thou mayest be baptized , and the other arise and be baptized calling on the Lord &c. yet Iohn baptist spake to more then one , even to all the people that came forth to his baptism , or to be baptized of him when he said repent , and amend your lives , and they did so , and were baptized of him in Iordan accordingly , confessing their sins i. e. they that were at all baptized by him ; and Peter said repent as well as be baptized to all that he preacht to , yea repent every one of you exempting no one from repentance , to whom he enjoined baptism and they did so , and were baptized accordingly i. e. as many ( no more , for else it s a fallacious relation ) as gladly received his word , that did not infants , therefore all this is also as exclusive of them from baptism surely , as let a man examine himself , and so let him eat is exclusive of them from the supper , or else I le never trust reason more , but f●rgo it , and become as reasonlesse as your selves . To conclude then , in granting positively that without self-examination there is no right of accesse to the supper , and also in granting it suppositively , that if there be any thing equivalent to that required of all that are to be baptized , then infants may lawfully be barred from baptism , you answer as answerably to reason as men can do , or even reason it self : but in supposing that no such thing as self-examination is required in order to baptism , as it is to the receiving of the supper , you wretchedly bewray your self-non-examination of the Scripture . Review . 4. When they come to ripe years not one of millions gives testimony of his faith without further instruction . Nor should he of his reasonable soul , not so much as in speaking if he be not taught . Re-Review . First , the faculty of not onely believing in general , but also in special of believing the Gospel , of believing in Christ to justification is belike as naturally , and necessarily in infants of believers , as the faculty of reason it self , so it seems by your talk , why else is that frequent analogy made by you between these two , and such frequent allusion in proof of one of them to the other , as if whosoever denies one of them viz. the grace of saving faith to be in such infants must needs also deny the other , and as if whatsoever concludes against such infants being believers concludes as much against their being reasonable creatures ? I am much amazed at your ignorance in this , specially since your selves agree , that all infants , even those of Indians , Turks and Pagans are reasonable creatures , and yet that few , not one of many infants are habitually believers , as namely the infants of believers onely . Secondly I blush at your rudenesse and folly in this also in that you assert , that not one infant of millions should give any testimony of his reasonable soul i. e. ever evidence it that he is a reasonable creature , when he comes to ripe years , if he be not taught . What S●●s , will children never shew themselves to be risible , and so consequently reasonable by laughing , when tickt and toid with in such minority , as they are not capable to learn in , if they be not taught and instructed how to laugh ? will they not shew themselves intelligible , if not so much as in speaking , which with you it seems is the first , and least expression of reason in them , yet not so much as by understanding what is spoken to them ? yea how think you , must they not be imagined , and understood in some measure to be understanding , and so consequently to have reasonable souls before they can be rationally instructed at all ? for verily he is a fool , unreasonable , and of no understanding himself , that offers to teach children to act any act of reason , that is to be produced by teaching , or to know their letters , or to read , or write before they can discern them to be at least intelligible , and teachable in these things they are to be taught in , and consequently to have reasonable souls : Yea verily the faculty of reason is habitus naturâ innatus and naturâ notus , a habit that comes by generation , and puts forth it self into several acts of it self , even so many as clearly testifie it to be in us before we are at capacity to be taught , and whether ever we be taught any thing or no , for a specimen of reason in us must be before we begin to be endoctrinated , or else as good endoctrinate a brute creature : but justifying faith , or belief of the Gospel is such a habit of which we may not onely say ( as you do truly in the next page ) p. 18. that instruction of the understanding , in the object of it in some sort must ●o before any act of it can be discovered , as whereby onely say you discovery of the habit can be made , but also that instruction of the understanding in some sort must go before the habit of it can be in us at all : for whether you will suppose it to come by infusion onely , or by aquisition onely , or both , it comes not by nature and generation ( as reason doth ) but by teaching and instruction , if we will believe the word , which saith faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of God. Review . 5. They lose it again when they come to more years , else why are they taught the element of faith ? By the same reason they should lose the faculty of understanding also , because after they are set to learning : learning is for the bringing forth into act , and perfecting of the degrees ; otherwise one that is at 24. years of age , having received faith once , might give over learning more : for if this argument might hold either they lose it , or why do they learn ? Re-Review . Hoop Sirs ! what pretty , cutted stuff is here ? as if you did not know well enough , but that , for advantage sake to your crooked cause , you rather chuse here to seem ignorant of it , that reaching and learning is not onely for the further bringing forth of habits that are in us into their acts , and perfecting of them in their degrees , but also for the begetting of some habits in us that never were before viz. not natural and innate habits , as the faculty of reason and understanding , for instruction is not for the engendring , but improving of these in us , but all such kind of habits as faith is viz. acquired habits ; teaching tends not onely , to the perfecting of such a posteriori after they are once begun , but a priori also to the very being , and begetting of these , whether they be habits about matters of this life , or that to come , t is true therefore learning is to be continued for the perfecting of habits begun , and begotten in a man , otherwise indeed ( as you say ) one of 24 years , having once received the faith , need be taught no more , but it is to be also for the beginning and begetting of faith in him , otherwise to one at 24 years of age having not yet received it , the faith is preacht by you in vain that he may receive it . There is a teaching to beget grace and faith where it is not , and a teaching to increase it where it is , Mat. 28.18.19 . a teaching before , and a teaching after faith and baptism , and if you ask a reason of both these , the one is to beget faith into both the habit , and the act , the other to build it up into higher degrees , the second teaching indeed supposes a being of it in men , the first teaching no being of it as yet when you begin first to preach to them , for your preaching speaks to them as to unbelievers : whereupon this argument holds good , that if ever they had faith in their infancy , they have lost it now , for why else are they taught the element of it ? why taught in order to the receiving it ? for reason in this objection must be understood as speaking suppositively onely i. e. in case persons had faith in infancy it s now lost , why else are they taught to this end that they might have it ? but not so positively as your expressions represent it , as if reason did really assert that infants do lose any faith they had in infancy , for howbeit reason acknowledges that such in whom faith is , may lose it if they look not to it , yet reason knows well enough that those can never be said to lose faith , in whom faith never was at all . Review . 6. Habits encline more towards their proper actions , but children of Christians are not more inclined to actions of faith then infidels . An Argument from comparison is subject to many exceptions ; caeteris paribus being to be proved before it can hold , if the objector had considerd that among children born of the same Christian parents , under the same education , one gives a better specimen , not only in acts of piety , and religion , but knowledge ; he would not have concluded to the denyal of the habit of faith in one , more then of the faculty of understanding in the other . We must necessarily hold , 1. The habit of faith must be , before it can work . 2 ▪ That the Spirit of God infuses this habit . 3. That he is not bound to work it in the children of Christian parents , nor barred from working it in any of the children of infidels . 4. Whersoever this habit is , it inclines to holy actions when there is opportunity , and the season for bringing them forth . 5. This inclination is not equally alike in all in whom the habits themselves are . Sampson and David are sufficient instances ; David for exceeding in acts of piety and relegion . 6. Instruction of the understanding in matter of faith in some sort , must go before any act of faith can be discovered . Lastly , that no judgement of science can be passed till the acts themselves be seen and examined , for a posteriore onely the discovery of habits is made . These premised , the answer is , 1. That unlesse it could be certainly presumed what children have the habit , what have not , for the working of the Spirit is not known to us , he is not bound nor barred , there can be no conclusion made . 2. That in those children where there is lesse promptnesse to acts of faith then in others , we cannot argue ad negationem habitus , because they work not equally . Lastly , by this cross interrogatory , are those children of infidels , with which the objector makes his comparison , being called and instructed , inclined to acts of faith or not ? If the former , it presupposes they have the habit , and so the working in them , and those born of believing parents may be one . If the later , the Argument is deny'd , for the children of Christians are more inclin'd . Re-Review . This is wit whether wilt thou : I think he is wise that well knows either what you say , or what to say to what you say , so reasonless are severall pieces of the return that is here rendred to reasons objection . I speak not of a few faults , which in the first part of it escaped the presse , and made it nonsence , for those you corrected in the copy you sent to me , so that I might do no less then do you right so far as to transprint it ( as I have done ) according to your own emendation : Nec tibi Typographi crimina dem vitio . But of the faults which escaped the pen , or rather the pates of those that composed this rambling responsion , the major part of which , whether it past from you willingly , and ingenuously , or rashly , and unadvisedly rather I know not , is a most flat unsaying of most of that you have said before ; and much of what you say again in the next page after , and an acknowledgement of the clear contrary to that , which you have hitherto tugged for , and which you persue the proof of well-nigh throughout your whole Pamphlet , an absolute overturning of the basis on which your book builds infants baptism , which is this assertion , viz. That it sufficiently appears that these little infants in particular have faith , meaning infants of believers in contradistinction to those of Turks and Pagans , whom as concerning their original condition , and their birth-right to salvation you rather rank with the Devils , then with the children of Christians ; I say a plain deponing of that position you ground all on , viz. that t is apparent the infants you sprinkle do believe , and so a serving of our turn as much as we desire ; and as for that little which seems not so directly for us , though by reason of , not the profundity ( for t is shallow enough ) but the darkness , and muddiness of the matter , it be hard to see clearly to the bottom of it , yet if I do truly sound the sense of it , and reach to the utmost of your meaning in it , it seemes to speak as little for your selves . You tell us first , that an Argument from comparison is subject to many objections , and cannot hold , unlesse caeteris paribus be first proved ; whereby you subject the most of your own Arguments in the present point to exception , for I appeal to your selves , and all men to judge , whether they are not mostly drawn from comparisons between the children of the Jewes , and the children of Gentile believers , the circumcision of the one , and baptism of the other ; and yet caeteris paribus is not at all proved by you to this hour , nor yet ever can be , sith caeteris imparibus , I mean disagreement almost in all things between Jewes children and Christians , between circumcision and baptism is so manifestly made appear by us , that there hardly appears any analogy at all between them . Besides , Secondly , So far as to the freeing of this Argument from comparison between infidels and Christians infants , so as that it may hold without any exception , caeteris paribus is granted by your selves , for if by this parity in other things you mean an equality of souls by creation , your selves assert that parity but a page above , viz. p. 16. where you say all souls are equall in their creation , and so the souls of believers and unbelievers infants . But thirdly , If by parity in other things , which you would have proved , you mean an equallity in their natural capacities , and endowments of wit and ingenuity , then either there is such a parity in infants of Christians and infidels , or else so far as disparity is , the excellency may much rather of the two be supposed to be in the children of Christians , in whom yet caeteris paribus , suppose them to have the same education , and instruction , there is no more inclination to believe in Christ by verrue of any habit of faith infused into them in infancy above the other , then there is in the children of Indians . Next you tell us , If the Objector had considered &c. he would not have concluded thus as he doth , The objector you say is Reason , so that Reason belike was much besides it self in arguing so unreasonably against your fiction of faith in the Infants of Christians ; but what if Reason should consider the very same , that you here wish it would , must its conclusion against the belief of believers infants be thereupon ere a whit the more unconcluded ? and what though among children born of the same Christian parents , under the same education , one gives a better specimen , not onely in acts of piety and religion , but of knowledge also , may not therefore the habit of faith be more groundedly denyed to be in one , then the facultie of understanding can be denyed to be in the other . What still Sirs ? still will you make the being of faith in the infants of Christians of equall necessity with the being of the principle of reason and facultie of understanding in infants ? the faculty of understanding is an innate habit necessarily to be concluded , and that in the highest degree to be in all infants , t is in omni , per se , quâ ipsum , but faith in Christ is by your own confession , but an infused habit , and by your own confession as not in all infants , so in you know not which , and which not till you see them act it : and yet by your own conclusion ( to go round again ) t is in such not in such , viz. not at all in Turks and Pagans infants ( for they are all in a damnable condition with you ) but in all infants of Christians , even such as yet give no specimen of it , and that so necessarily , that a man may as truly deny that which is naturall to them , even the faculty of understanding , as deny the habit of faith to be in them . Next in order to a fuller , and more direct answer you prepare the way by a pannel of six or seven positions , which you say you must necessarily hold , concerning two or three of which we may say it s no great matter whether you hold them or no , for any undoubted , and infallible truth that is to be found in them , in the sense wherein you take them , or at least for any great matter of assistance , that acrues to your cause by them , and as for the rest , of which you say you must necessarily hold them , you might have said rather you must necessarily yield them to us , for indeed they are the giving up of your cause , and no other then the drawing of a dash with your own pen over all that ever you say , throughout the residue of your works , as concerning that sufficient appearance of faith , you assert to be in believers infants : yea he is blind that doth not see you thereby perfectly blotting out again , what ever you penned in that particular with your own hands . First say you the habit of faith must be before it can work , I know no necessity of holding this for truth , neither indeed would you hold it but that you imagine faith to be another kind of habit then it is , for there are more kinds of habits then one , though you speak of habit by the lump all along , as if you were aware of but one , for here 's ore and ore again , habit , habit , habit , habit , habit , but not the least hint of what kind of habit you mean ; you are never the men that distinguish of habits , whereas qui bene distinguit bene docet , there being some habits acquired , and obtained no otherwise then by acting , and faith it self is such a habit , as will hardly be proved ( for all your confidence in the contrary ) to be any other , at least to be apparent in any one , or visible to the view of others till some act thereof hath past the persons in whom it is , neither is any one in the world , that I know of habitually a believer in Christ , till having heard of him or his word he doth actually believe . Secondly , whereas you say the spirit of God infuses this habit ; I grant he infuses it , if you take the word infuse in a true sense i. e. for begetting it in persons by the preaching of the word , other infusion of faith ( if yet that may be properly called infusion , which is a phrase rather of your own coining in this case ) the word knows none : God indeed gives it , but he gives it in the way of hearing the word of faith , in the way of hearing Christ preached , in which way he never gave it to infants , neither is it his gift to them in any other : the spirit works it , but not without the use of means , not per saltum , and in nictu oculi i. e. so suddenly as you fancy , but by the discharge of that office he bears from the father to that end and purpose , towards the whole world , i. e. moving , striving , perswading inwardly , whilest the word doth without , inlightning , convincing a man of sin in himself , of righteousness to be had , and of a judgement to come , wherein we shall be saved , or damned according as we believe , or believe not , accept , or neglect so great salvation ; upon which motions and convictions , which are ●tricter and stronger in some then in other some , some yield , and believe , and obey the Gospel , and some for all this rebel and obey not , so that t is true the spirit thus effects the business within us yet not so as that he is said wholly to do it without us ; he is the supreme efficient , the operative cause of it , but we are to be concurrent cum causà operante , we have a part to do as well as he , when he hath done his part towards us , i. e. to believe , which if we do not , he will not force us , he will go no further , nor shall he be blamed , but we , and we not onely blamed , but damnd for not doing it accordingly : but if we do believe , and turn at his reproof ; then indeed there is a promise of an infusion , or rather effusion of the spirit in other i. e. those more special and peculiar offices , of a witnesse to our spirits , that we are Gods children , a seal , a comforter , a revealer of the things freely given us of God , a supporter under suffering &c. all which it performes towards the Saints , and in ●espect of which onely its called the holy spirit of promise Eph. 1.13 . in this manner the spirit of God in order to that sweet infusion of it self into us may be said ( if you will call it infusion , for which a fitter word may be found ) to inf●se i. e. to work faith , other infu●ion of faith into men , much lesse into i●fants , or such a downright infusion as I suppose you dream on , the Scripture makes no mention of at all . Thirdly in that you say he is not bound to work it in all the children of Christian parents , nor barred from working it in any of the children of infide●● : this indeed you must necessarily hold ( as you say ) for t is undeniable truth , but in holding it you must wholly let go all you held before , concerning believes infants appearing to have faith , and that in contradistinction to the infants of unbelievers ; for first you use to say as p. 14. out of Act. 2. that the promise of it is to believers , and their seed , i. e. as believers seed , and so consequently to all , and onely their seed , not the seed of unbelievers : for quod convenit qua ipsum , convenit om●● , soli , semper , belongs alwayes , to all of one sort , and not any man of another , and thereby you use to bind the spirit ( unlesse he will bee unfaithfull ) to work faith , as without which you think he cannot give them salvation , in all the seed of believers , for a promise that is made to such or such a seed ( qua si ) must needs be sure as the Scripture saith Romans 4.16 . and made good ( or else God that cannot lie breaketh his word ) to all the seed to whom ( as such ) it is made . But sith now you say that the spirit is not bound to give faith and salvation to believers seed , nor barred from giving it to any of the seed of infidels , which is as much as to say he is at liberty from all obligation of himself by promise to either of these above the other , and to work it in which he pleases , you will I hope ( unless you be more ashamed of seeming to have been ignorant , then ashamed of your ignorance , so as to give glory to God by confessing it ) relinquish that wonted position of a birth priviledge in this point , in believers seed , more t●en in others , which you ground and prove from that promise A●t . 2. and ingenu●usly confesse , that for ought you know the one hath no more ingagemeat of God to them by promise then the other : so that unlesse there were more warrant then you have to single out one from the other as the special subjects of baptism , and heirs of salvation , you ought to baptize them all alike i. e. in very deed to let them all alone till you come , as in inf●ncy you confesse you cannot , to presume what children have the habit of saith , and what have not . Fourthly , where as you say wheresoever the habit of faith is , it inclines to holy actions , when there is opportunity and the season for bringing them forth : whether this be necessary to be held or no , yet wee l hold it to do you a pleasure in calling you thereby from your false cause , for else its like to do you more displeasure in your cause of infants faith , then you well considered , when you penned and printed it : for wheresoever faith is , the opportunity and season for its bearing fruit , and working by love and other holy actions is ever present and perpetual : yea its never unopportune or unseasonable for him that hath faith to be acting obedience in one thing or other : yea if any one say I have faith and have not works , and holy actions , much lesse , if no inclinablenesse to holy actions , that faith cannot save , nor stand him instead faith without works being dead and profiting nothing : therefore if where ever faith is it inclines to holy actions when opportunity and season for it is , then I am sure there is no faith at all in infants , for there is no opportunity or season at all in infancy , wherein faith is found fruitfull in them : and if you will say they have faith though you have no evidence of it , and prove it is so because it is so , then it is a faith without works , and that faith is dead , unprofitable and cannot save them , Iames 2. and if so , you would be better opinioned towards infants in my mind , to hold them saved without faith , then to hold they have a faith which cannot save them , for better never a whit at all then never the better . Fiftly , whereas you say that this inclination to holy actions is not equally alike in all , in whom the habits themselves are , that may be so too , yet Sampson and David are no such sufficient instances of it , but that more sufficient might have been given , for as there are many worthy things recorded which both these did by the power of faith , Heb. 11. so he of whom you say he exceeded in acts of piety was in some things , not to say as impious , yet impious as well as the other ; besides to make comparisons between two such worthies , as doing , the one more good , the other lesse , both which by faith did no lesse the subdue , and in their times fully deliver Israel from the Philistines , for which the spirit is pleased to record , and recommend them both as examples to all ages , and rank them among others , of whom the world was not worthy , in one line Heb. 11.32 . caeteris paribus unproved too , such comparison ( if any be so ) is beyond all comparison odious , and subject to many exceptions , but be it all just as you have said it , yet as little yields it to the support of your infant faith , and childish baptism , as if you had said nothing at all . Sixthly , whereas you say that instruction of the understanding in matter of faith in some sort must go before any act of faith can be discovered . And seventhly and lastly , that no judgement of science can be passed i. e. true demonstration made of this habit of faith till the acts themselves be seen , and examined , and that a posteriore onely the discovery of habits is made , and then from all these preparative premises draw up your conclusive answer in three heads answering thus in the first place viz. That it cannot be certainly presumed what children have faith , what have not , and that the working of the spirit in that particular is not known to us , and ore again also that the spirit is not bound nor barred , and therefore there can be no conclusion made . I say t is all necessarily to be held for truth , yea t is a truth so preciously pertinent to our purpose against the purpose of your own pamphlet , that had we been to conclude in a little compasse all that need be said toward the appearance of this position viz. that it doth not sufficiently appear by any evidence of it in their infancy , that infants of believers have faith , any more then other infants , we could not in so few words have spoken so pithily to such a purpose , which when I consider , I cannot but wonder , and conceive you will once wonder at your selves , when your eyes are open , that they whose words all these are should act against them all , so absurdly , as to make it the biggest business throughout their book , to make it appear and that sufficiently , that believers infants have faith beyond other infants . Babist . A charitable judgement concerning their having faith is sufficient to admit them to baptism , and that is the utmost that we assert can be had of their belief , not a judgement of certainty . Baptist. A judgement of charity that there 's faith in persons sufficiently , warrantably , and certainly grounded is sufficient to baptize upon , and such is that judgement on which we baptize , who baptize none , but such as the word requires us to believe to be believers i : e. such as personally profess so to be , and of such as those , though we have but a judgement of charity concerning their faith , yet have we from precept and president out of the word a judgement of certainty concerning their right to baptism , but a judgement of charity taken up on meer fancy and conceit , without warrant from , or rather against both Scripture and reason , warrants no man to dispense baptism upon it , as from God , for if it do I may as well baptize the great Turk as a little infant , and no better is your judgement of charity concerning faith in little infants , upon which you attempt to baptize them . Babist . Our charity is better grounded then so , yea far better than yours , as certain as it is , and is as due to children of believing parents , as to persons at years ; for we have Gods testimony concerning them in this matter , whilest you have but mans testimony concerning himself , yea Christ hath amply declared his good will to them in Scripture , whose testimony is not onely Tanta-mount , but to be preferred before mens , from which it more plainly appears , that infants have faith , then the testimony of any particular person can make it appear for himself . Baptist , So you say indeed both before page 5. and behind p. 19. but how dare you assert then that you go not about to prove certainly , but only probably that believers infants do believe , for verily if it be so as you say that God himself gives testimony for them in Scripture , that these little infants do believe , then never say no judgement of science can be passed , no discovery made of the habit of faith , nor peremptory presuming what infants have faith , and what not till you see them act it : for Gods testimony is more credible then mans indeed , hath he said it and is it not so ? yea verily let him be true , but every man a lyar ; for mans own word can create but probability and charity , and not so much neither , unless he speak it from Gods word that believers infants do believe , and infidels infants do not , but if God have said so , then cursed be he that will not believe it to be so , for if his word be not perfectly demonstrative , and scientifical and past all doubt , ( but I confesse I find not a word of his concerning such a thing ) then I le never trust self confuting Clergy men any more . 2. Whereas you answer that in those children , where there is lesse promptness to acts of faith then in others , we cannot argue ad negationem habitus , because they work not equally . What is this to the present question and position concerning no more inclinablenesse to holy actions in children of Christians , then of infidels ? for those are such of whom your selves assert the one have faith , the other have none : but these you speak of now are adult ones , such as in whom there is some promptness to acts of faith appearing , differenced only secundum magis & minus , some inclining more some lesse to acts of faith , concerning all whom , sith those of them that have least promptness , have at least an apparent promptnesse to acts of faith , who denies but that they may have faith , though they work not equally ? but what 's this to the proof of more , or lesse inclinablenesse to holy actions among infants , who are so far from having some more some lesse , that even none of them have any promptnesse thereto at all ? 3. Whereas you fiddle it on a little further , and think to coop us up by your crosse interrogatory , you may well call it a crosse one indeed , for its a net that catches your selves , let us answer it which way soever you would have us . For if we say heathens infants are inclined to acts of faith , and should make that good against you , as we shall hardly ere trouble our selves to do , unlesse we did believe it to be truth , can you give any just account of your denial of baptism to these ? yea who can forbid water why they may not be baptized , that have and are inclined to act faith as well as the other , and in whom as in those of believing parents the work is palpably at least possibly and probably the very same ? But if we say no , infidels infants are not inclined , then we must take what comes on it , for you are resolved to hit us home indeed , and so you do , while you do that at last cast , which had you done at first , you had saved your selves a deal of hurt , which you have done your selves , by circumlocuting so long in way of proving the very Minor proposition of that last Argument which Reason urged against you , viz. that Christians children are not more inclined to actions of faith then those of infidels ; for at last you fall flatly as your safest way to deny that Minor , and assert contrarily thereto , that children of Christians are more inclined to holy actions , then other children , which if it be true . First how grosly do you contradict that you say in the lines above , where you seem to grant that there may be more inclinablenesse in infidels children , and promptnesse to holy actions then in Christians ? Secondly , I wonder how you come to be experienced in it , for if you Clergie men be all Christians , and so you are in your own account , your children ( excepting some that by the breeding you give them , grow up to the same stamp of Christianity you print upon them ) do ( for all their native holy inclinations ) not seldome prove the lewdest and rudest of any mens children in a Countrey ; for not onely through the Priests and Prophets own practise , but from their posterity too oft times prophaness goes out into all the world , or else the Popes had never filled it with iniquitie as they have done . The nex● objection of Reason is as followes . Review . 7. Faith comes by hearing . Little children cannot hear , must lesse understand . Ergo they have no faith . They might also conclude they have no faculty of understanding neither , for that comes by hearing : but infants have an hearing , the spirit opens their ears he must do it in adultis , or for all their hearing they will never believe . He is not tyed to means though we are , without the outward hearing of the Word he works faith in little children . The manner of his working is miraculous , as it is in the conversion of every soul , enough hath been said to that before ; nor ought it to be objected , if miraculous then not ordinary ; for the work of the spirit in the conversion of men is both . Re-Review . Had Reason had the managing , representing and writing of this Argument her self , she would not have set it down in so weak , absurd and silly a manner , as Reasonlesse hath done it in in this place . Reason never held such a thing yet as is asserted in this Minor , viz. that children cannot hear , much lesse understand , for abstract hearing from understanding , and take these two in sensu diviso ( as you do here ) and children can hear ; but in sensu composito they cannot : it cannot rationally nor truly be said they cannot so much as hear , much lesse understand , but they cannot hear so as to understand , or they cannot hear understandingly , as those must that hear in order to believing , and whose faith comes by hearing : a hearing t is true infants have , for they are not destitute of that sense , more then of seeing , and the rest : Auriculas Asini quis non habet ? the same hearing , that an Asse , horse , or other bruit beast hath , which is only the sound of words , without the knowledge of the sense , who hath not , save he that is deaf but the hearing they have is neither such as Paul speaks of there , nor yet that heating you say they have , viz. an inward hearing of the voice of Christ , and the spirit opening their ears so as to make them learn things as adult ones do , that is a meer figm●nt , of your own fancies : besides if they had such an internal hearing as you dream of , what were that to the matter in hand , or to the answering the objection , that is grounded upon the alledged Scripture , which speaks not of an inward but an outward hearing the word of God preached , as that by which faith is begotten , and without which it cannot come ? out of which outward way and meanes if persons be brought to believe as usually as by it ( and so it must needs be if little infants believe by the understanding of ce●tain secret whisperings and teachings within ) the spirit would not have spoken of it , as such an unpossible case as he doth , in saying how can they believe on him of whom they have not heard ? and how hear without a Preacher ? But say you that is the usual means , by which faith is begotten in adult ones but the spirit is not tyed to meanes though we are , he works faith in little children without the outward hearing of the word . Is it so Sirs , that the spirit is not tyed to work by means in little children , in the same cases , wherein he works by means in men , and women ? I wonder then that you , whose opinion this is , should be so forgetful , as to teach quite contrary to your own tenet , for verily of all the men that are , I know none that limit the spirit , and tie him to means in his dealings with little infants , like unto your selves . As for us we own this position fully , and to a tittle viz. that what God acts at all for infants , he acts without meanes , as to their salvation , but as for your selves you own and disclaim this by turnes , according as it seems to serve your own turnes : so far as to hold it helpes to hold up your monstrous odd opinion of infants faith , which hath no footing at all in Scripture , you inwardly entertain it , and outwardly proclaim it for undoubted truth : but when you find it makes against you , then t is no other then a figment of the Anabaptists , for when we tell you there is no right to baptism without faith , but infants cannot believe , because faith comes by hearing understandingly the word preached , which infants cannot do then such of you as Rantize infants on such a sottish supposition , as their having faith in themselves , excuse the matter thus viz. The spirit is not tied to means , nor to the outward way of hearing the word , so but that though he begets men to faith that way , and by that means , yet he begets infants to believe without it : and such of you as ashamed to assert that the infants themselves have faith , do Rantize them on the fathers faith without their own , excuse the matter thus viz. The spirit is not bound to admit infants to baptism in that same way wherein he admits men , viz. the way of faith , but admits infants to have right to it without that outward means of believing : But when we tell you faith and baptism are the way wherein , and the outward means by which the spirit justifies and saves men and women , but without this outward way of faith and baptism , he can and doth save dying infants , and that the spirit is not tied to the same means of belief and baptism , in the justifying and saving infants through Christ , by which , and which onely he saves men , then you plainly disclaim what you proclaimd for truth before viz. the spirit is not tied to means in infants , but works without them in infants , though not in men , and hold that he doth work by means among them so , that there is no hope to be had by parents of the salvation of their infants , out of the way of baptism , and no justification of them on of the way of belief . Thus you tie and unty , confine and lose the spirit at your pleasure , you give him leave , for your own lusts sake , either to approve of your baptism of children out of his own declared and onely approved way of faith , or if it be needfull as some of you think it is , for infants to believe in order to baptism , then to beget faith without that outward means of hearing the word , but though it is his own good will to justifie and save dying infants by Christ without the outward means of faith and baptism , there he is limitted , and cannot obtain your good will , he must give way to you to baptize infants , out of that ordinary way of faith , wherein his will is that men shall be baptized : but he may not save infants out of the ordinary way of faith and baptism , wherein his will is that men by Christ shall be saved , no not by any means in the world . There 's but a matter of four gross , false , unsound , and absurd assertions in this reasonless reply , which I must intreat you to be ashamed of before I leave it . The first is that old piece of sing song , which is canted ore some three or four times before , but would be rather recanted , if you were not resolved on perseverance in perverseness ; wherein you tune it out as if faith in Christ , and the faculty of understanding were both so con-naturally and con-necessarily in believers infants , and them onely , that we may as rationally and safely conclude neither to be in them , as not both . This blue vain of artificial non-sense keeps its course well nigh throughout this whole discourse of yours against reason , so that every foot when reason alledges a●y thing that 's clearly conclusive against the being of belief in Christ in believers infants , as namely their not knowing good and evil , their giving no testimony of faith when at years without instruction , nor upon instruction neither sometimes , so much as the adult children of unbelievers , their not having any faith at all for the most part , witnesse your successelessenesse in your preachings to your parishes to beget it , whereby it is evident , that either they never yet had it when rantized , or else have lost it if they had , their non-inclinablenesse to believe ( caeteris paribus ) more then other peoples children , their uncapablenesse to hear the word with understanding , which is the only way and means , whereby the word declares faith to be given , and to be gotten , you answer all along ( Cuckoo-like ) in one tone , and that 's this viz. That by the same reason we may conclude against the faculty of understanding in them , and against their having a reasonable soul , as if it were full as clear , and altogether as absurd to doubt that these infants have faith ( which yet your selves confesse you cannot presume , what infants have , and what have not ) as to doubt that they have the reasonable soul , which is notoriously known to every Novice in very nature to be in all mankind by nature without exception , and that so also , as essentially to difference them from other creatures . The second remaining and remarkable absurdity is this viz. in that you most shamelessely assert that the faculty of understanding comes to persons by the same way and means , whereby justifying faith comes , and no other i. e. by hearing the word preached , for when reason argues against infants believing thus viz. faith comes by hearing the word of God , but infants cannot hear so as to understand the word of God preached , Ergo , not believe ; you reply thus viz. They might also conclude they have no faculty of understanding neither , for that i. e. the faculty of understanding comes by hearing i. e. as faith doth , O prodigious piece of priestly prudence ! did ever any ; but men minded to manifest their folly to all men , utter such a thing , that the faculty of understanding comes , as faith in Christ viz. by hearing the word of God , are not the faculties of the soul of man , I say the faculties of it , i. e. the facultie of understanding , the faculty of the will so inseperable from it , so essential to it that a person is neither sooner nor longer a reasonable soul , then it hath these ? I confesse that Plus notitiae , or acquisitio ulterioris intelligentiae , increase of knowledge , and the obtaining of more and more understanding may come by hearing , wherein the faculty of understanding being set on work , not onely exercises , but improves it self also , and comes to act it self on more intelligible objects then before , now newly discovered to it , but that Ipsa facultas intelligendi , or ipse intellectus , the very faculty of understanding it self , which comes by nature , and generation , and is as essentially in man , as the reasonable soul it self , doth come by hearing , is such a mess of matter , as was never heard of to this hour , nor can I conceive what kind of hearing any faculty of the soul can come by , sith the understanding and will must both be known to be in persons , and they thereby to be both reasonable , intelligible and eligible creatures before they can be fit subjects to be spoken to , and before intelligible , or eligible objects can reasonably , seasonably , or any other wise then senslessely be propounded to them in preaching , neither , if at all they had such a monstrous kind of inward teaching from the spirit , as you talk of , can they have even that teaching , before they have the faculty of understanding , for that teaching must be at least after they have a being , but they are not in being sooner then the faculty of understanding hath a being in them : yea in order of time the sense of hearing it self is not in us before it . And howbeit the Axiome be true , if rightly taken , Nil est in intellectu quod non prius fuerit in sensu , the understanding apprehends nothing , which some sense or other doth not first some way or other apprehend , yet still the faculty of understanding , whereby we conceive , and the will whereby we receive , begin to be in us at least as soon as the senses , whereby we outwardly perceive i. e. as we our selves begin to be . Thirdly , other ridiculous silly stuff , that with the rest this section is stufft with , is this , in that you would seem to make the spiri●s converting , and begetting little children to faith to be some strange miraculous , and more marvellous piece of businesse then his converting and begetting faith in grown persons , because in infants he uses not that ordinary means , whereby he converts men ; without the outward preaching of the word ( say you ) he works faith in little children , his manner of working i. e. in little children is miraculous , and yet when all comes to all , instead of proving ( as one might very well expect you should do ) that the conversion of infants is such a different , transcendent and wonderfull matter , ore that of men is , you confesse plainly in the very next words , that the conversion of every soul , is a matter as miraculous as that : as also above p. 16. where your words are these , the renovation of a soul ( meaning of any soules of either adult ones , or infants ) is no lesse a miracle then that of the resurrection of the dead , which you mind us of here also , saying , enough hath been said to that before , and I say too much , unlesse it were beetter , for they are both alike egregiously absurd , and full of falshood : as for the conversion of infants , at 7. or 8.9 . or 10. daies old , for then you sprinkle them upon that account , t is a figment , a meer Ens rationis , and yet I can hardly call it so , so little reason is in it , unlesse I may call a non entity so , or that which never hath a being any further then in the brains that broac hit , in a word nothing at all , and therefore no miraculous thing at all , for that which is not , is not a miracle : and for the conversion of men unto the faith of Christ , it is so far from being miraculous , that of the two , though indeed neither of them is properly a miracle , it is more to be admired rather , that no more persons are converted , and that considering the pains , patience , and goodnesse of God , that leads to repentance , the plain dispensations of himself to men in promises , and threats , and discoveries of the way of their peace , they should yet be so obstinate and unbelieving . It was wonderful and marvellous indeed that the Jewes ( for the most part ) did not believe in the wildernesse , for all they saw so many of Gods wonderfull works ; but no wonder that some few of them did : herein is a marvellous thing that ye know not whence Christ is , i. e. own him not by faith , as the sonne of God ( saith the man Ioh. 9.30 . ) and yet he hath opened mine ●yes : t was not so marvelous that men believed in Christ , when they heard his words , and saw his works , but much rather because they believed not , Act. 13.41 . t is wonderful when Gods works are not believed though declared , yea Christ himself is therfore said to marvel at their unbelief , Mark 6.6 . t is not marvellous that some men see and accept of excellent things , when they are shewn and tendred to them , but that most men seeing do not see them , much lesse is a persons believing as great a miracle , as the resurrection of the body from the dead , for then t was as great a miracle that many Jewes believed on Christ , when they saw him raise Lazarus , as it was that he raised him from the dead , which thing , who ever doth believe , I believe him in that particular to be a marvelous unwise man for his labor , it being rather no lesse then marvellous stupidity , that when they saw Christs marvelous works , yet for all that they did not believe on him . Besides if every conversion of a sinner to the faith be a miracle , the gift of working miracles is given to men as commonly in these daies , as in the Apostles , for how usual a thing is it now for men by the gift , that is in them , and given them from above as instruments under God ( and no other were they that wrought miracles ) to convert sinners from the evil of their waies ? but that cannot be granted by you however , who cry out that the working of miracles was an extraordinary gift , that hath ceased since the times of the Apostles ; finally the conversion of souls of men to faith by the preaching of the word is that , which is effected ordinarily , and therefore is not miraculous , for ordinary and miraculous are clear contrary , so that they do rather tollere se invicem , then are capable to be denominated of one thing both at once , for an ordinary thing is not only that , which comes to passe usually , and frequently , but chiefly which is accomplished secundum ordinem , according ●o a common order of meanes , and constant course of second causes , as faith in infants doth not , being wrought ( if at all ) without the outward means , as your selves confesse , and even thereupon , and in that very respect here called miraculous , and if I could ever see such a thing at all ( as neither you nor I ever did ) I should say it were a miracle indeed , to see an infant believe on him , of whom understandingly they never heard , but Miracles are such things , which as they are done more rarely then other things , so when they are done , t is ( if not contra ) yet at least praeter , extra , supra ordinem , either against , or besides , or out of , or above the usual way , not keeping the accustomed use of means , nor process of second causes . Fourthly , whereas to back one absurdity with another you assert the work of the spirit , in the conversion of men , i. e. adult ones , which is by outward means , to be both ordinary and miraculous , I judge it to be as very a Bull as ever was conceived , and gendred in the braines , or calved out of the mouth of man. Review . 8. The only Scruple is the making it appear concerning particular children , which are brought to be baptized , whether they have faith or no , for say the Anabaptists faith is an inseparable condition required in persons to be baptized and we know not the heart nor the work of the spirit . Though enough hath been said to this in the disputation , yet these two things are added for further satisfaction . 1. That true faith is not required in every one to be baptized , for then none but justifyed persons should be baptized , and those that are apostates afterwards , must be said to fall totally and finally from grace . 2. That a charitable judgement concerning their having faith is sufficient to admit them to baptism , which judgement is as due to children of believing parents , as to any of years that make profession . First , because the Scripture hath so amply declared the good will of Christ to them , which is tantamount to any ones single profession of himself . Secondly , because we know nothing against any particulars , wherby they should be excepted from such judgement . Re-Review . You begin first to storm the rear or last clause of that Argumentative matter , which you have here charged upon the Anabaptists , as their opinion : but you might have spared that pains if you had pleased , for those you call Anabaptists assert not such a thing , as that is , they say not that faith , but that an outward appearance or profession of faith is an inseperable condition required in persons before they be baptized by them , for they know not what belief is in the heart , but as confession of Christ is made with the mouth , and profession of him in the words and works : whether therefore persons have faith or not , and whether there be any ( as he that is blind sees no such ) that receive the truth in truth for a time , and after fall totally from it , that is neither here nor there to us , in this case , for if there be inwardly no dram of faith at all , yet if there be such an outward serious profession made of it , that we thereupon ( I say again ) thereupon , and not on charity misgrounded , can judge it to be , we are excused in baptizing such hypocrites and apostates , and their comming to holy things with unhallowed hearts will be not upon us , but themselves , but if there be never so much faith in the heart , and no profession of it without , whereby it appears concerning this and that particular person , that he believes , so far as we can discern , God will not hold us guiltlesse in baptizing such persons for taking his name in vain . That opinion therefore of a necessity of faiths being really in persons , as well as a profession of it before we may baptize them , Reasonlesse might as well have writen under his own head , as under the head of Reason , for that is owned no more by one then by the other , t is a real profession of it , that in foro hominum gives admission and warrants the administration , which because it neither is , no● can be made by any particular infant , and consequently no appearance made , that it hath faith , therefore infants may not be baptized . This indeed remaines a scruple unremoved by you to this very hour , or is rather a matter unscrupled and altogether undoubted by us , viz. that it cannot be made appear concerning this or that particular infant ( suppose any one of them you sprinkle ) that it hath any faith at all . You tell us enough hath been said to this in the Disputation , I tell you that more then enough is said against it in the Disprobation : yet fith you are pleased to add as little as can be in further satisfaction , I shall add as much as need be in further refutation of your folly . You say that a Charitable judgement concerning this or that particular persons having faith ( for your proof now is to be de individuo ) is sufficient to admit them to baptism , and that this judgement is as due to children of Christian parents i. e. every particular amongst them , that are brought to be baptized as to any at years that make profession . It seems then that the believing pa●ents personal profession of his own personal belief , which is that onely whereby we judge him to be a believer , doth prove himself to us to be a believer , not one jot more plainly , then it proves all his children ( if he hath never so many ) to be believers as well as he , and that we are bound by duty to judge all the children of a professor to have faith , as certainly as we may judge that professor himself to have it , for the same judgement of charity that is due to professed believers is ( say you ) equally , and every whit as due to such believers children . Are you not ashamed of such a blind businesse as this ? what doth a mans personal visible acting , and professing of faith discover it to others that the habit of faith ( as you call it ) is in himself , no further then it discovers it to be also in his children ? did you not say but the very next page above that no judgement of science concerning a persons having faith , can be passed , till the acts of faith themselves , which are never seen in infants , are seen and examined ? which is as much as to say that when the acts are seen and examined , as they may be in men , then a judgement of science may be past on them ; do you not say that the discovery of the habit of faith to be in infants is made onely a posteriore i. e. onely by their future professings , and personal actings of it ? which is as much as to say when children come once to act faith , then it may appear and be known that faith is in them , but tell then , or in their infancy it cannot appear to be in them : do you not say it cannot be certainly presumed what children have faith , what have not , the working of the spirit being not known to us , and the spirit himself not bound to work faith in all the children of Christian parents , nor barrd from working it in any children of infidels , and that there can be no conclusion made of this thing , which infants have faith , which have not ? which is as much as to say , that though it may be more certainly concluded , presumed and judged concerning men at years , who have , and who have not faith , yet the same doth not appear concerning infants in infancy ; are not these your own sayings but a few lines above ? and yet for all that have you so soon forgot your selves , as to unsay it all again in this page , where you ingage to make it appear concerning the particular children , which are brought to be baptized , that they have faith , and to determine that in charity we are bound to judge faith to be in believers infants , as much as we are bound in charity to judge it to be in the believing parents themselves , that make profession ? and such judgement is as due to one of these as to the other ? were there ever such contradictions as these committed to paper before ? But le ts us examine your reason why we are to judge faith to be in these infants , as we are to judge it to be in any that make profession , you say because the Scripture hath so amply declared the good will of Christ to them , which is Tanta mount to any ones single profession of himself . I answer , that the Scripture declares the good will of Christ to little children in general , without exception , and not to one more then another , but what 's this to prove any of them to have faith ? much more what is it to the proving and making it appear that this and that particular infant hath faith ( which is the matter now in hand ) when other infants have it not ? or to prove believers infants to have it exclusively of the infants of unbelievers ? yet you say this declaration of Scripture , which your selves confesse p. 5. declares concerning infants in general , proves this or that single infant , in contradistinction to others , to have faith as sufficiently as any ones single profession proves it concerning his single self , Nay this report of Scripture makes it appear ( say you most sottishly p. 5. ) that infants have faith , more then the particular profession of any , whom we admit to baptism , can make it appear of himself ; and yet ( to go round again ) a posteriore onely i. e. by profession of it onely the discovery of the habit of faith is made : O curious criss-crosse ! The second reason you here give , why a charitable judgement concerning their faith is due to these particular infants , and not others i. e. infants of believers , and not unbelievers is this viz. Because you say we know nothing against any particular infants why they should be accepted from such a judgement . To which I answer . Do you know any thing against the particular infant of an heathen ? if this be a reason upon which we are to judge any infants in particular to have faith , because we know nothing against any particular , t is a reason upon which we are in charity to judge all particular infants in the world to have faith as well as any , yea the infants of infidels as well as Christians : for who knoweth any thing more against the infant of an infidell in his infanny , whereby he should be excepted from our charitable opinion of him , then he knows against the infant of a Christian ? especially ( that I may to your confutation conclude against you in your own words p. 5.6 . ) since it cannot appear that one of these more then the other , hath by any actual sin barred himself , and deserved to be exempted from the general state of little infants declared in the Scripture , viz. that the kingdom of heaven belongs to them . So , having run through and repelled that rout of responsives that would not be ruled by reason , I come now to enter skirmish with your Scare-crow , for verily what follows is no other then a false Alarum , a sound of words , a number of Iackets and Breeches stuft with stubble , and bombasted into the shape of men in arms to fright fools at a distance . Review . We shall only present to the Christian Reader those horrid sins , this wretched error of the Anabaptists involves men in , and so forbear to be further troublesome ; it may be the sight will make many tremble and forsake their tents , and not suffer them to be so frolick about the hole of the Asp , or play with the Leviathan , and walk upon the ridge of those Alps , whose Praecipice is so fearfull . Re-Review , Bona verba quaeso , and not thunder without lightning . Review . 1. It makes them deny their first faith , with their baptism , for there is but one faith ( saith the Apostle ) and one baptism Eph. 4.5 , Re-review . Aliâs it makes them first confesse , and visibly professe that one faith , and own that one baptism , which what ever they did in words , in works they denyed till now , and makes them renounce that none faith and none baptism , which they had in infancy , for if they had faith while they were infants , how can they deny it in your opinion , who deny any falling from faith ? but if they had none in infancy , then how can you deny but that they had none ? and so they deny none at all . Review . 2. It makes them crucify Christ again , for we are baptized in●o Christs death and therefore but once because Christ d●ed but once . Re-review . It makes them crucify Christ often ore and ore again indeed , i. e. in the Supper where in a figure they break his body and shed his blood , an orderly fellowship , and communion in which service they are ingaged to , and enter upon , after the example of those Acts 2.42 . immediately after baptism . Other crucifying Christ I know none among them , that is caused by their doctrine , but that of those , who after they are inlightned in it , and have tasted the good word of God , &c. do after that fall away again , and such indeed crucify to themselves the sonne of God afresh ▪ and put him to open shame Heb. 6.4 . but I hope the truth among none , but Reasonlesse persons shall bear the blame and be made the cause of their crucifyings of Christ , who depart from it ; as for us we are crucifyed , dead and buried with Christ by baptism Rom. 6. for we are baptized into his death ; and that but once , because Christ dyed but once , and yet once , because Christ dyed once , and that is more then any Rantized Priest in Christendome can say of himself , for he is not so much as once baptized at all . Review . 3. It makes them count the blood of the Covenant an unholy thing , for if it be holy , what need they repeat it ? if unholy , how do they prophane it ? Re-review . How far forth Anabaptism properly so called , i. e , the repetition of baptism , ( without such warrantable ground as it was repeated upon Act. 19.5 . ) doth ( saving the nonsense that is in that expression ) repeat the bloud of the Covenant , and so count it an unholy thing , I am not so much a friend to it as to gainsay , but sure I am that A-no-baptism ( and such yours is ) doth count not only the bloud of the Covenant , but also that holy ordinance of baptizing believers , which is the token of it , an unholy thing , for if it be holy , why do you neglect it ? if unholy , in so saying oh how do you prophane it ? Review . 4. It makes the Covenant of the Gospel worse then the legal , this taking in all Children into the visible Church , the Anabaptists excluding them , making them no better than Turks and Pagans . Re-review . What again ? Review . 5. It destroyes all the comforts that afflicted parents can have ●ver their deceased children , the grounds of them being destroyed , their right in the covenant and promises of Christ. Re-review . What again ? Review . 6. It unchristens the whole Church of God for many hundreds of years together , and calls in question the truth of Christs promises , of being present with his Church to the end , and guiding it by his spirit into all truth . Re-review . What again ? what ore & ore , and ore again ? are you drawn so dry , that you are fain to fill up , to swell up your Review into the magnitude of a sheet with old ends and pieces , and patches of things , that were precedent , or did these three Renegadoes , fearing a storm , run from their old ranks hither to secure themselves , by crouding in amongst the rest of this rubbish stuff ? for every one of them have faced us once or twice a piece before page . 6.7.12.13 . neverthelesse sith I meet with them here again , I le have a word or two with every of them now . To the first I say thus , if the legal covenant did take in all children into the visible Church ( as you say , & as indeed it did ) i. e. as well the children of unbelieving , as of believing Jewes , neither had the one of these a strawes more right to circumcision then the other , then sith the Covenant of the Gospel is inlarged and communicated to both Jewes and gentiles , between whom the partition wall is broken down , and they both made one . And sith now by the Priests own confession it stands in the same way to be administred among the Jewes and Gentiles as that legal Covenant did for a time among the Jewes only , the Priest himself makes the covenant of the Gospel worse then the legal , that taking in , at least to the visible Church , all children of that people to whom it extended , i. e. the Jewes without any exception , without any respect to the parents being godly or ungodly , b●lievers or unbelievers : the priests contrariwise under the Gospel Covenant , which extends and belongs to the whole world , i. e. both Jewes and Gentiles , 2 Cor. 5.19 . 1 Iohn 2.2 . and to all nations as well as one Mat. 28.18 . Mark 16.15 . Luke 24.47 . excluding now the Major part , yea almost all children by their doctrine , viz. the children of unbelieving Gentiles , of heathens , Turks and Pagans , and unbelieving Jewes too , which ( for all their parents wickednesse , and unbelief ) were wont to be received into the Church under the Law , and this not onely from the visible Church neither ( for that were more tollerable of the two , and can do them no hurt , if it be all ) but also from the Kingdome of heaven , and salvation it self in their cruel Charity , before they have by actuall sinne deserved to be exempted . And this I speak not as believing any infants in infancy to have right to entrance into the visible Church , and fellowship thereof here on Earth , though yet I believe all infants , as well as some , dying infants , and before they have deserved exemption and damnation by actual rebellion , to have according to the general declaration of Scripture , right of entrance into the kingdome of heaven ; but that I may discover the unruliness of the Priest , who wherein he judges others of streightning the Gospel condemnes himself , who undertakes to make laws , prescribe rules , impose principles upon all men , and yet breaks his own lawes , varies from his own rules , straggles from his own principles through blindness as much as any other whom he blames for it . To the second thus , if it be so indeed ( as you told us once before it is p. 7. and here tell us over again that we may know your mind in it ) that to deny baptism to infants before they dy , doth ipso facto destroy all the comforts , all the hopes that any parents can possibly have of the salvation of their infants , that dy unbaptized , and all the grounds of those hopes , i. e. all those childrens right in the covenant , and promises of Christ , and consequently ( this necessarily followes ) doth subject them unavoidably unto eternal damnation . Then first as I told you once or twice before , so I tell you now again that 't is your selves , and not we who are the men , that say , no baptism , no salvation , for ( say you ) there is no ground for parents to hope their children can be saved , no though those parents be believers , though those children believe also themselves , and so both by birth , and by their parents faith , and their own faith too , have right ( as you say the infants of Christians have ) in the Covenant , and promises of Christ , yet they must damn for all this , if baptism be denyed them , and if they dye without it , their parents must mourne without hope of their Salvation . This is your judgement of Charity concerning unbaptized infants ; even of never so believing parents , having also the habit of faith in themselves , for though parents believe , and believe their children to have faith , too and right to salvation , yet deny them baptism , and ( all the other notwithstanding ) there 's no hope of them , the parents can upon no good ground be comfor●ed concerning them , but that they are damned . T is you therefore that place such high , and mighty necessity in the bare outward dispensation of the ordinance , that are so for the ceremony , that hold that the substance doth no good without it , why else do you say that be there never so many grounds otherwise , on which to hope infants salvation , viz. their parents faith , and their own faith , and title thereby to the Covenant , which , though false , simple , and rotten , yet are the grounds on which you hope some dying infants may be sav'd , though you fear the most are damn'd ( for indeed the true grounds on which to hope the salvation of all dying infants , is there non-deserving exemption by actual sin , and personal rebellion against the Gospel ) why I say though there be never so much ground of hope of their salvation , do you say the grounds , whereupon they elsewise may be hoped to be saved , are all destroyed , if they be denyed to be baptized ? Moreover I tell you , that you run round , like a blind horse in a mill , and contradict your selves egregiously , by holding such a high necessity of infants baptism that there 's no hope of their salvation if it be denyed them , so that unlesse you recant it , you l in the end repent it that ere you lived your selves , and led others so long in such delusion ; for mark how you mope too and fro in a mist , sometimes you say that birth of Christian parents , and faith in the children so born , these give right to the Covenant , and the promises of Christ , and so to salvation , and the kingdome of heaven , and their right to the promises , and the kingdome , that gives them right to baptism , and to entrance into the visible Church , supposing their right to salvation to be without baptism , and before it , as that which intitles them thereto , making their visible right to baptism , and the visible Church to depend upon their visible right to salvation , saying they must be seen by some thing or other distinguishing them from others , who are not heirs , to be heirs belonging to the kingdome , before they be signed as such , and so you argue , making an apparent right to baptism posteriour to their right to salvation , viz. to whom the thing signified i. e. heaven appears to belong , to them consequently the sign i. e. baptism , else not , but that appears to belong to infants , therefore this , which is as much as to say , we must first look upon them , and believe them to be heirs of salvation , and upon that ground afterward baptize them , so making the right to the sign depend upon the being of the thing signified . Other while again ( as here ) you turn the cat i th pan , and tell us a tale , that turns all this up side down again , and makes all their right to the Covenant & promises of Christ , to salvation by him , to the kingdome , which all are according to your other opinion to be Antecedent to baptism , and entitling to it , so that no apparent right to the Covenant , and promise , and kingdome , and salvation , no baptism , you make I say all these , on which you made baptism depend before , so necessarily dependant on baptism , so subsequent to it , so no way appearing to belong to infants without it , that no baptism no title to life ; deny them baptism , and entrance into the visible Church , and they are visibly in the kingdome of the divel , there 's no hopes they can be saved , if their parents let them die without it , no grounds on which to hope it , but though believers children , and apparently enough believing themselves , and so thereby in apparent right to the Covenant and promise of Christ , and consequently of salvation , and all this before they may be baptized , yet they are in the visible kingdome of the divel , and do but deny baptism to them , and all those old evidences are worn out , their names blotted out of the book of life , their parents can have no hope of other then their damnation , nay all the grounds on which to hope that any good comes of them , are utterly destroyed . So then of the doctrine that you deliver this is the summe , in two round heads viz. That infants right to salvation must needs be apparent , or else they may not be baptized . Secondly ( to go round again ) baptism of infants must needs be , or else there 's no apparent ground , on which to hope they can be saved . Finally , I tell you I marvel in my heart , it being so that such danger comes by denying infant baptism , that parents cannot hope they can be saved , how you dare for your ears delay so long as you do , sometimes a week , sometimes a fortnight , sometimes almost a year , as the custom of England was of old to baptize but twice in the year viz. at Easter and Whitsontide , and do not rather baptize your infants so soon as they are born , least happily their lying in the visible kingdome of the divel longer then you need to let them , they happen to die before your good chear can be made , and all your kinsfolks come together , and then the parents be left without hope of any other , but that their children remain in the kingdom of the divel for ever : for persons live or dye visibly ( say you ) either in the visible Church of Christ , out of which you say also there 's no salvation , the visible entrance into which is by baptism , by which therefore unbaptized infants never entred ; or else in the visible kingdome of the divel : this is one of Mr. Baxters diseased disjunctions p. 71. for there is no more necessity then there is of sprinkling infants ( and that 's as little , as little can be ) of their being visibly in either , neither are they visibly in either the visible Church of Christ , or visible kingdome of the devill , till they are at years , but in medio abnegationis : you salve all that danger , which I confesse is none at all in infants dying unbaptized ( but onely that I speak according to your own principles ) by telling us that t is not the bare omission , or neglect , but the contempt of the ordinance , that damnes the persons that dye without it . I tell you again , that if this may passe for true and currant doctrine among those that hold baptism due to men and women onely , and not infants ( as I scarce know how it should , sith neglect of known duty is damnable in a lower degree , as well as contempt of it is in a higher ) yet however its false , silly , and nonsensical doctrine among you that baptize none but infants , apply it how you will : for the parents neglect , and the parents contempt of the ordinance as to his infant , is much at one i. e. neither of them damnable to the infant , unlesse you will hold up that saying again in the world , which God protested long since men should never have occasion to use any more viz. that the child shall die ( eternally ) for the fathers sin , surely the fathers contempt doth not redound any more , then his bare neglect , with any danger , or disadvantage to the infant , and as for the infant he cannot be damned for not being baptized in infancy through his own neglect , or contempt of i● , for he neither contemnes , nor neglects it . To the third of these three things that you , and I both have thrust here into one place , you in the Review , and I in the Re-Review in order to the dispatching of them all together viz. it unchristens the whole Church of God &c. I say thus , confessing that our doctrine unchristens whole christendome , which the Pope hath called the Church of God , but is indeed the whole world of Gentiles , that hath got into the outer court , the meer outward form , and name of christianity , and hath trod down the holy City , and true worship for 1260 years , that whole world that hath for ages and generations wondered after the beast , nor is this inconsistent with the truth of Christs promises of his presence , and guidance among those that are his true Church , and people indeed , for howbeit he hath , according to the word , left those to their own wayes , that left and liked not his wayes , yet he ever hath , still doth , and ever will lead those into truth , that love the truth , and will be led by his spirit , when he will lead them : yea though he tied not himself to teach them , that should chuse the Pope for their Tutor , yet according to his promise he hath bin more or lesse with those , that observed what he commanded them in his word from the beginning , and so shall be even to the end . Review . Lastly it doth the devils work in the shape of angels of light , to make men renounce their baptism , and if from Nero's hating the Christian Religion , the antient Apologetist of the Church did rightly gather the goodnesse of it ; we may the validity of infants baptism from the devils hatred of it : it hath ever been said of him , he will not make a bargain with any soul till it hath renounced its first bargain which was made with Christ at baptism : the Anabaptists are his Proctors , and do it to his hand . Re-Review . Of which desire of his to have us renounce our baptism being not a little aware , though immediately after I renounc't that Rantism , I once had ( unawares to my self ) in the innocency and ignorance of my infancy , & in the room thereof received real baptism , I had one messenger from Satan to buffet me , and beat me off from further proceeding in , and owning of that practise , yet through the goodness of God and that grace of his , wherein I still stand , I was so far from being removed , that I was much more settled , strengthned , and stablisht in the present truth , wherein I walk , and I trust shall walk in , unto the end , unlesse I receive more evidence to the contrary , then ever I have done from any writings , or any discourses of any , that ever I met wi●h of what principle , or profession soever : which messenger ( whose name was William Everard after the flesh , but the name that the father had given him was Chamberlin ( as he said ) for he lived in the secret chambers of the most high ) though he came to my house , pretending that he was immediately sent from God , with a message to me in particular viz. to renounce that practice of baptizing , which himself had sometimes walkt in also , but now relinquisht , did to my self , and some others after half a dayes most serious observation of his speeches , strange extasies , and uncouth deportment , by many prodigious passages , blasphemous pratings , and ( as by experience we then proved them ) flatly false pretences to what he had not , and most presumptuous , yet successeless , undertakings and frivolous fopperies ( of which I am willing at any time , but not capable under a hours time , to give fuller account to any that shall desire it ) discover himself to be one of the Archangels of darknesse , which the devil now sends forth a new in the shape of angels of light , and is now no lesse apparently I think to all that know him , and where he is . And howbeit , it hath bin more then once , but once especially , as I have hinted to the Reader in a shrewd shake of sicknesse , that befel me above a twelve moneth since to the great retarding of this work , reported that I was shaken sheer out of my mind , and judgement concerning this way and baptism , so as to have recanted and renounced it , yet I call my God to witnesse , to whom also I give thanks for his mercy toward me in that particular , that partly by the more then ordinary advantages I then had , through my sequestration from all other occasions , to seek the Lord , to search and try my wayes , and turn again unto him , partly by the more then ordinary ingagements that were then upon me so to do , and that seriously and sincerely , through my dayly expectation to be clapt up in clods of earth , till the great day of acccounts , I have bin much more sweetly satisfied since then concerning the truth of this way , then ever I was in all my life before , neither did I then find any cause to repent me of coming to Christ in it , as neither shall any , that renouncing your Rantism do rightly receive it , so they continue to walk uprightly in it to the end : but this I must confesse , I found good cause to repent of it that I had not honoured it so much as I might have done since I ownd it , nor walked so profitably , serviceably , blamelesly , holily , and worthily in it , nor so suitably to so holy and worthy a way as it is in it self , not withstanding the account of basensse and foolishness that it hath in the world , 1 Cor. 1.30 . So that ever since that forenamed sifting I had from Satan , by the mouth of that his Agent , by whom he solicited me to forgo my baptism , I side with you in this , viz. that t is the Devils worke in the shape of an Angell of light to make men renounce their baptism , and though I am somewhat otherwise opinioned about the Divels affection to infants baptism , then you are , for I think if he hate it , t is as he hates holy water , or any other of his own inventions , wherby he hath juggled away the truth , and imitated Christs ordinances out of doors , yet I am fully of your mind that he so hates the true baptism , I mean the baptizing of professed believers , from whence I gather the goodnesse , and validity of it against him , that it is most of the business about which he is at work in the shape of an Angel of light in these daies , wherein his time growes short , and his old kingdome begins to fail him by means of the true baptism , to erect to himself a new kingdome , and in order thereunto to make men renounce that baptism , as knowing that he cannot strike a downright bargain with a soul to become fully his , as the high Notionists , and spiritual Sensualists of these times do , till it hath renounced its first bargain , made with Christ in baptism , not what was made with Christ at infant rantism , for infants are not capable per se to bargain with Christ , and how they do it per alios I do not see , sith such as say they do it for them , were never appointed by them so to do , nor by Christ neither , that I know of , nor do I remember any bargain to own Christ and not be ashamed of him that either I , or others for me made with Christ on that day wherein I was sprinkled , no though , as they tell me , in token thereof , that I might never forget it , I was signed with the sign of the Crosse : this work of diswading men from owning baptism as long as he can , and perswading them to disown it when they have it , though the Devil be at one end of it , yet dares be not be seen in it himself , but acts all by his emissaries ; the Anti-baptists are his Proctors , and do it to his hand , the Rantizer and the Ranter , the sprinkling Priest on the one hand , the sparkling Prophet on the other , between these two he does , or rather undoes what he can : in ●●der to prevention of whose design , I shall as the Lord lends leave , say something to them both , before this work go out of my hands , though it hang so much the longer in them . Review . They will peradventure wave the fury of some of these blowes by denying their name , by saying they do not rebaptize , but baptize those , that were not baptized before , whose baptism is null : But we should renounce our baptism too if we should yield them that plea , till they have proved it null by better Arguments , then any yet ever urged by them , they shall be denyed that evasion : and one would think they ought to be sure of their footing , and not walk upon slippery ground , for no better is their proof , where the fall is into hell . If thou art warned , thou wilt be armed against them , they will never encounter , where they find this preparation , if thou wilt not be warned , we have delivered our own soules . Re-Review . Having spent all your other Ammunition , and vented your verdict to the bottom , you here once for all discharge your great Warning piece , and Roar us all at once down into hell , what else mean you by this clause , where the fall is into hell ? is the error on which hand soever it lies , yours or ours , so damnable in the question about the true subject , and the true form and administration of baptism , that the opposite parties to the truth herein must needs damn without more adoe ? I trow not in case they act through ignorance altogether invincible in the very integrity of their hearts : but if the truths Antagonists in this point , whether it be you or we , either see and see not , or may see and will not , or can see and dare not , or find the footing and ground they go upon to be unsure , and slippery , the proofs they practise from to be poor , pedling , and paltry , as God knowes yours are , if you do not , and yet for fear and shame of men , find it not , then the fall may chance to prove a desperate one indeed , and therefore Sirs see ye to it , see that ye see to it , for ye are a generation that in these daies of discovery are seen more into then you are aware of , and may see much more then you do , if you will. And they that say it is so dangerous to be out in the question disputed , that the error , on which side soever , reaches , and leads them that follow it to the end , as farre as hell , had need be more sure of their hand , then you can be in your cause , from the most serious search of Scripture , that they are in the right , and if they find that they are out to return in time . Or do you make the game in this case , and question between us and you to go thus , viz. That if it chance to appear hereafter that we are out in the point of baptism , then we must to hell without remedy , but if the error prove or fall out to be on your side , it shall be so venial , and tollerable a trangression , that you may go to heaven for all that ? verily one would think it were to run thus in the thoughts of you , Clergy men , of some of you at least , for some are more moderate towards us and our tenet then other some , and some of you at sometimes more moderate then your selves at other times ; amongst whom bitter Mr. Baxter is one who though he be far more immodest in his discoursings of our dipping , then we are in our dispensings of it to any ( in which respect I confesse I count him as keen to the full as he confesses himself to be ) and one that persues the controversie which more crabbidness then it calls for , for if it be so small a matter as he makes on t , yet however he is so modest about it , that he can scarce afford the Anabaptists the term of Heretiques , much les●e of damnable Heretiques as most of you do , yea , he speaks so diminutive●y , and Apologetically of our supposed error , p. 9.10 . ( but that ( to go round again ) he is as hyperbollicall , and egregious in accusing it , page 12.13 . where he loads us , who dissent from him in it well nigh as low as hell ) viz. That this controversie considered in it self is of lesse moment then many imagine , and a point that God laies not so great a stresse on as many do . Neverthelesse some of you are ●am in vestris talpae , in alienis linces , so eagle eied a broad , and bleared eyed at home , that if your infant-sprinkling be made appear to be the error ( as more then one of you that persist in it deny it not to be ) O how it s excused , extenuated , exempted from so much as guiltifying , much more from damnifying hell deep its dispensers ? Though it had been better it never had been brought in , and that baptisme never had been changed , yet since t is now the present custome , and authority requires it , there 's not so much evil in it but it were better stand , then the Church fall a contending about it . But while our dipping is supposed to be the error , t is an error of so dangerous concernment , that finally to stand in it , is to fall flatly into the pit of hell : And little better then thus it is ( for ought I see ) with you Ashford disputants , if we compare this place with page 26. of your pamphlet ; yet we take it the more kindly from you however , since t is your watch word to us , whether we be warned from baptizing of believers by it yea or no : if we be not warned , you say true you have deliuered your own selves , yet ( one good turn for another ) I warn you again , that you have delivered your selves hitherto more against the truth of God , then from the wrath of God , unlesse you warn more wisely , and deliver your selves more divinely for the future . You tell us peradventure we will evade the fury of some of your blowes by denying our name , you may well say the fury of your blowes , for the very title of Anabaptists is a bang , wherewith in your wrath , and fury you wound many honest men , and bast them till they stink again in the nostrils of their neighbours for your sakes ; whereby you basify , and prate them out as odious ones to the world , when you cannot prove them erroneous by the word : you need not say peradventure , nay you may be sure on t , that wee l deny though not our own name , yet that nick name Anabaptists , which you are pleased improperly ( not to say impiously ) to impose upon us , though we bear with your illiterateness in so doing , for I trust we shall not more say , then sufficiently shew , that we do not Re-baptize , but onely baptize those which never were baptized before , and whose baptism , which you say they had in infancy , is null , i. e. nothing , and yet not nothing , but a new thing rather , another baptism , another thing then baptism , which is neither the baptism of Christ , nor indeed any true baptism at all . Let us both pawn our baptismes upon it , ours , which you call nothing but Anabaptism , yours , which we call nothing but Rantism : if we do not make it good that your baptism is no baptism , at least not that , which Christ instituted , then we shall ingage not onely to yield up that our plea , but to renounce our Baptism also , but if we do it , and you never disprove it , then we shall expect it answerably from you , that you both yield up that your plea , and renounce your Rantism also ? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ANTI-RANTISM , OR CHRIST'NDOM VNCHRISTN'D , IN An Appendix added about sprinkling wherein the shallownesse of that dispensation is shewed to be such , that it can neither properly , nor possibly without perverture be called Baptism . HAving razed the rotten Basis of your Babism , I come now to reckon with your Rantism , and to examine whether our manner of baptizing , which is by dipping , or yours , which is only by sprinkling , is the baptism which was instituted by Christ , according to that small hint you give me , which is no other then a bare , single , simple denyal of your baptism to be null ; for no lesse then that is the next fault wherewith we charge it : As for your selves , as if you were unwilling to have it sifted , as I verily believe , and have sufficiently experienced that you are , you slide so silently by this question , which is as requisite to be discussed , and duely understood as the other , that howbeit you are not a little concerned for the securing of your baptism , to back it in this particular also , specially since you confesse that you must give it up , if our plea against the form of it prove valid , yet you afford not so much as one wea-bit of an argument , whereby to disprove our form of baptizing , nor yet to prove the truth of your own , save only your homely reply to our plea , viz. we should renounce our baptism too if we should yield them that plea : which words of yours in a Sillogistical form run thus , viz. If we yield them their plea we must renounce our baptism . But we are resolved we will not renounce our baptism . Ergo we will not yield them their plea. Thus you are resolved to hold the conclusion : neverthelesse such shamefull tergiversation , and utter loathness to put your selves upon tryal by the word I have ever found amongst you in this point , that how justly Mr. Baxter complains of Mr. Tombs for refusing to dispute it publiquely p. 134. I know not , but I am sure not more justly then I have occasion to cry out of your unworthy waywardnesse in this case : for though at the Disputation at Ashford I did in my position ( some , but not half the sum of which you set down in your Account ) positively declare my exception against two things in that , which you call your baptism , viz. - First the false subject . Secondly the false manner of administration , together with my earnest desires to have satisfaction from you concerning the latter also , as in respect of which I proclaimed it null , as well as in respect of the former , yet you drilled away all the time about the first without either giving out a warrant then , or granting us your presence another day , wherein to give your warrant for the second . In like manner at the publike dispute , which was at Folstone before many hundreds of people , where there was one , if not more , of my opponents at Ashford , the Opponents part being put upon me , much more against my expecta●ion then desire , I told that C●assis of Clergy men , who were there , that t was most proper to direct my dispute to their practise , which sith it was the Rantizing , and not the baptizing of infants , I would prove that their sprinkling of infants was not lawful ; but I could at no hand be permitted to proceed in such a way , or to come neer their copy hold in that point , viz. their false form of dispensing , though I promised to abide a whole week among them , rather than they should not have discourse enough about the subject ; at last I obtained with much adoe a division of the question into two , viz. 1. Whether infants were the true subject ? 2. Whether sprinkling were the true manner of baptizing ? And a solemn Engagement from them , that if so be I would begin upon the first , there should be a discourse after it upon the other . But as I forewarned the people , and that before these mens own faces , that it would be at first , viz. that they would evade all controversie about that , if it were possible , even so it fell out indeed at last ; for after some two hours , or little more , though it were well-nigh a winters day yet to night , it was on their parts so uncessantly urged , that the disputation might cease , and the people for that time be dismissed , that the divel is blind if he did not see that day , that those who sided with him , unseen , against the truth , did judge that there was discourse too much , though but a little , about the Subject of baptism , and enough , though none at all , about the form . But I let passe this , and come to prove the point now in hand , which is this , that dipping or overwhelming in water , and not sprinkling , is the only true form , or manner wherein baptism is to be dispensed , and without which it is either properly no baptism , or at least none of that baptism which is required in the word and may be owned as the ordinance of Christ. This is most plain , and in a most plain way I desire to prove it : and first from the signification of the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is ever used in the originall , as that whereby this ordinance is expressed , and whence it derives that denomination of baptism , the proper plain English of which is to overwhelm , or cover with water , to plunge over head and ears , to put under the water , to dipp , douze or drown in the water . : and it is the derivative of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is tingo , quod fit immergendo , to dipp in that manner , as they do that dy cloth and colours , which is by that total submersion of things in the liquor , as all men know they do that dy , and not by sprinkling here and there a drop of water on them . Thus I say the word baptize signifies , and not to sprinkle ; and therefore that I may rouze all those people into a remembrance of this matter , whose Priests deceive them , and draw them to dream that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies both to dipp , & to sprinkle , which some , whether it be of that ignorance of the truth that cleaves , and accrues to the common sort of Priests , through their taking things upon trust , and tradition one from another without tryal , or of meer malice making them willfully to hide the truth after they have received the knowledge of it , I know not , God knowes , but some I say stick not still as much as they can to make their people believe it ; But to awaken such to some attention to the Heterodoxness of their Priests , as well as all waies to the Orthodoxness of them , I here summon all the priests in Christendome out of either Stephanus , or Scapula , the two Greek Lexicons that are in so great request , and of such ordinary use among you , and such friends to your selves , as you may see by the bitter invectives of both of them against us as Anabaptists , as a Diobolicall sect , and therefore would favour your cause as far as in conscience they could , to shew the contrary to what I here have said , viz. that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 eiher doth not signify a totall dipping of the immedi●te subject that is denominated baptized , or dipped by it , or that it ever signified such a thing as sprinkling at all . Yea the word that signifies to sprinkle is another word , viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is ever used in Scripture by the spirit , when he speaks of such a thing as sprinkling : yea t is used three times in one chapter , viz. Heb. 9.13.19.21 . and is all along englished by sprinkling , neither is there any one place of Scripture wherein the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendered to baptize , or used to signify baptizing , neither is there one Scripture wherein the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendred sprinkling , or used to signify such a thing as sprinkling , not is there any reason why it should be so rendred , specially if you consider Secondly , The Non Identity , and deep diversity that is between these two actions , viz. Sprinkling , and Baptizing [ Anglicè dipping ] by which , as by a second Argument , its most plain that sprinkling is not only not the baptism of Christ , but in truth no baptism at all , and so consequently that he is properly no-Anabaptist , who baptizeth them that were but sprinkled , and he Ano-Baptist that doth but sprinkle . Rantist . Our sprinkling is baptizing as well as your dipping , and these two are one say you what you will. Baptist. I tell you , and you will see it at last , that as Christ hath but one water baptism , and as he hath by appointment but one subject for that one baptism , and not two kinds of subjects , as you dream , viz. a believer only , and not both a believer and a believers seed , so he hath but one true way , and essential form , wherin that one Baptism is to be dispensed , and that is baptizing [ Anglicè dipping ] and not two waies , forms or dispensations of it specifically , and essentially distinct from each other , so that they are not so much as in speciall kind the same but sprinkling and baptizing [ alias dipping ] are truly two waies , two forms , two actions , two kinds of actions , ●o really different in their essentials , so specifically diversified in their nature , as actions , that even homo and brutum , which he is a brute that will say are all one and the same , do not differ more essentially in Praedicamento Substantiae then sprinkling and baptizing [ alias dipping ] do differ in the Praedicament of action : and therefore they cannot be called one and the same . T is true , all things that are , are the same in general i. e. genere remoto , for Ens dividitur in omnia : so that all things that are , are equally denominated entia i. e. things that are , so a man and a beast in genere proximo they are both Animals , yet are they not so all one as that the one may be universally understood by the naming of the other , nor the one denominated by the other , so as to say a man is a beast , and a beast is a man , they are one in genere , two in specie ; and the like may be said of dipping and sprinkling , which are two dividing members of one and the same general ( as Homo and Brutum also are ) and as specifically distinct , they are in genere remoto both actions , yea they are in genere proximo both wettings with water , yet are they not one kind of action , or wetting in specie nor all one , so as the one may be universally used , and done instead of the other , and yet the business be as well done , or both done , and yet but one and the same thing done , but one and the same word of command obeyed in so doing ; nor so as that the one may be as well understood as the other , when ei●her of them is exprest , nor so as to be denominated properly by each other , nor so as that the one is the other ; but all actions that are so specifically the same as sprinkling and baptizing [ aliàs dipping ] are made to be with you are so , as that they may be indifferently , promiscuously , universally used , and done one in the room of the other , and yet no other then the self same thing in specie is done still , as much as if we had used or performed the other ; yea so as they may be properly denominated one by the other , so as that in specie one is the other , so as that in speech sense and signification , they are so alike , that it matters not which term you use , or which of the two you speak by , for the sense will still remain the same , and stand perfect sound and entire , and the sentence have no non-sence at all in it notwithstand : e. g. smiting and striking , or to smite and strike , to be smitten and stricken are all one , and may be denominated one of the other , so as that one is the other , and though here are two terms , yet but one thing is exprest thereby , and the sentence you place them in may be without non-sense , and as entirely the same as before , if you use one of them in the room of the other ; as he mas stricken , or he was smitten are the same in sense : yea universally in all speech where you may use the word smite , you may use the wo●d strike , and both the sense and matter signified thereby will still be the same : But now so it is not between sprinkling and baptizing , t is so indeed be●ween baptizing and dipping , baptizing and overwhelming with water , baptizing and putting under water , baptizing and dousing , or plunging ore head , these are all one they all denote the very same kind of action , the very same kind of wetting with water ▪ and though here be a difference in terms , yet t is in word onely not in deed , the distinction is onely nominall , not real , not specifical , not essentially formal , for take any sentence of Scripture that hath ( speaking of water baptism ) the word baptized in it , and you shall find any of the other terms in sence coincident with it , and consistent properly in the room of it in speech and signification : as Mark. 3.5 , t is said of the people they were baptized of Iohn in Iordan confessing their sins , it may as properly be said they were overwhelmed , dipped , plunged ore head , put under water by Iohn in Iordan , but t is scarce propriety of speech to say they were sp●inkled of Iohn in Iordan . Rantist . No ? do we not in common loquution say the same , while we say sprinkled in a font , or in a Bason ? Baptist. I confess in common loquution we speak so ( as brevitatis gratiâ we do improperly many times in other cases ) yet is it scarce so proper , as to say sprinkled with water out of a font or bason : but however Mark 1.7 . t is said of Christ that he was baptized of Iohn a into Iordan , now I am sure you may say sensibly enough he was dipped , plunged of Iohn into Iordan , but it cannot be said without most palpable non-sense , he was sprinkled of Iohn into Iordan : therefore certainly the form of Christs own baptism , then which we cannot have better president for ours , was dipping ( as ours is ) and not such a simple sort of sprinkling as is still in use among your selves ; in the doing of which you do not onely ( as is evident by the premisses ) another thing then that which was dispenst to Christ , and enjoined by Christ to be dispensed , but indeed , as toward the fulfilling his command in that ordinance , you do plainly nothing at all that you shall be accepted in for your labour , for in vain you practise another thing , as in obedience to him , neglecting what he hath required , which he never required at your hands : and such is that sprinkling , which by custome in the corruption of the times came superstitiously to bear the name of baptizing , and then by little and little , till it had wholly worn it out of the world , to be practised , and passe for currant instead out , and this I will give you some account of too , sith I have given you the hint out , for in Cyprians time people being overgrown with such a superstition , as because baptism was the token to them of remission of their sinnes , therefore they would commonly after conversion delay their submission to that dispensation till toward their latter end , as neer as they could ghesse it approaching on them , that they might thereby have evidence of remission of all their sinnes at once , fearing , if they should be baptized before , least they should sinne again , and so spoil all the comfort they received by baptism , ( so far were persons from posting ( as they do now a daies ) to dispense baptism in infancy to their infants , that they at years did too much delay their own ) hereupon it came to passe not seldome , that the procrastinators of baptism were taken with sicknesse on a sudden , and confined to their beds unawares , before they could be baptized , in which case not knowing how to be baptized in that manner , wherein t was usually dispensed i. e. by dipping in places of much water , and yet unwilling withall to dye without it , they sent to Cyprian , who was the oracle of his time , to be resolved , whether in such a pressing case as this was , wherein they were as unwilling to die without Baptism , as uncapable to be baptized as they should be , it might not as well serve the turn , and be counted sufficient baptism to have a little water applied to them , or sprinkled upon them in their beds ? to this the good man being loath to leave poor sick soules upon the wrack , whom he saw somewhat affraid to die unbaptized , returnes his opinion to this purpose viz. that in this case , wherein without manifest hazzard of the sick persons life it could not be so well done as it should , it should be done as well as it could , and that they might have some application of the element to them in their beds , which if they died at that time should passe for currant , and be counted lawful baptism : Neverthelesse ( saith he himself ) if they happen to be restored to health again , let them be had to the River , and there be dipped : He that doubts of this may read it in Cyprians own Epistle to 〈◊〉 , who wrote to him about the case . So that we see he judged it fit to be done ore again , to be done better , to be done indeed if they lived , but if they then died , he allowed it to be called Baptism ( though it was none ) in favour to the weak , rather then otherwise . And here now comes in the first Rise of your Rantism , and no small occasion I believe ( if it were before begun ) of the growth of your Babism also , for when the needle was once so clearly entred , how easily would the thred follow after ? when it had once past through the mouth of a man so reverend , and respected in his generation ( as Cyprian was ) that it was baptism enough to be sprinkled onely in such a case , how easily might not onely every tender person that is loath to dipp the foot in cold water , but even every person also , that will do no more then needs must against the will of the flesh , mistake it so far as to make it serve the turn in every case ? and when such an easie kind of baptism as tha● was , was grown into use , that could be no more dangerous to infants then to men , how willingly would all persons ( specially those of that gang that grew apace a little after , ( for Cyprian himself , and 66 Bishops more gave ground for it , when in a certain councel they gave this ground for infant baptism viz. because , so farre as lies in us , no soul is to be destroyed ) who held baptism in such necessity as to say it saved ex opero operatio ) how willingly I say would they imbrace such an easie , and such a necessary baptism , not onely for themselves , but for their infants also ? But to return ( I pray pardon this digression ) this sprinkling which you use is not baptism , or at least not the baptism of Christ ( Cypriano Iudice ) let Cyprian judge of it , for if it were , he would not have required persons to be baptized after it , in case conveniently they could . Rantist . Miscarriage in the manner of baptism doth not nullify the matter it self , neither doth an error in meer circumstance annihillate the substance of the ordinance , so but that its baptism , and stands Christs ordinance still . Baptist. True miscarriage in the meer manner of doing any thing doth not null that thing , if that very thing be done indeed , which we wot of , though error in bare circumstance ( and such it seems you confesse your retained Rantism to be ) is too abominable to persist in , but miscarriage in the matter of a thing , and such grosse miscarriage as makes it another matter , or thing ( and such is that , when not the same that 's reckoned on , but another thing formally , specifically , essentially distinct from it , is done instead of ir ) then that 's another matter I trow , is it not ? And such as this , is your miscarriage in the matter we mean i. e. your Rantism wherein besides your foul faultering in materia circa quam i. e. the petty party about which you busie your selves in that dispensation , for that being not a believer discipled by your teaching ( as the subject of baptism ought to be according to Mat. 28.18.19 . ) but an untaught non-believing infant , doth clearly null it , in case you did baptize , from the name of the ordinance of Christ , that onely being his ordinance that is ordained by him , who never ordained baptism to be dispenst to other , then such as are disciples so made by mens teachings ; Besides ( I say ) your foul faultering in the subjects , you dispense to , t is another thing then baptism you dispense to them . Rantist . What then dipping belike is so necessary , and essential in baptism , that baptism is no baptism if it be done in another form , or if it be done by sprinkling . Baptist. No not so , for baptism is baptism stil , let it be done in what form soever , neverthelesse what is not baptism , is not ; and such is that sprinkling , which you call baptism , for it is not thing you call it ; for if it were baptizing that you used , whether it were thus or thus , it mattered not , because that thing that 's properly stiled baptism is still dispensed , yea though your subject be so false , as to barre it , even then , from bearing the name of the baptism of Christ yet , even then , might it bear the name of baptism , but sith it is not that which Christ at first instituted , but which men have since invented in stead thereof , notwithstanding its being done of old among the Clergy , yet is it no other then an old nothing . Rantist . 〈◊〉 practise hath born the name of baptism before you were born , among wise 〈◊〉 then your selves for ages and generations together , and must it now be dis - 〈◊〉 , and digraded from that title it hath been denominated by so long , and cease to bear its own name ? Baptist. It s own name ? no , sprinkling is sprinkling still , and so it ever will be , where it s used , but it must cease for ever from bearing the name of baptism , because baptism it never was : if your administration hath indeed the form of baptism then baptism it is , but then it can be called spirinkling no more , but if it have the form of sprinkling then sprinkling it is , and can be called baptism no more , for these two , though the materia quâ et circa quam i. e. both the Element which you use , and the subject , to which you use that element , be never so the same , yet are two such specifically and formally different actions and dispensations , as do not ponere , but tollere se invicem , and can in no wise meet in the same subject at the same time , so as that by the dispensing of either of the two , it may be denominated indifferently ( I mean properly ) by either , for he that is baptized cannot be said thereby to be sprinkled , and likewise he that is but sprinkled cannot be said there upon onely to be baptized , for these two actions of sprinkling , and baptizing , having two different formes , they cannot possibly be properly called the same . Rantist . Then it seems the different form wherein we do things , makes the thing so done so to differ , that they may not admit of one and the same denomination : and by this reason , sith there are several and various formes , wherein you dispence your dipping to persons , for happily you dipp them sometimes forward , somtimes backward , sometimes sidewaies , these various waies of dispensing cannot all be called by that one name of dipping . Baptist. By forms I mean not the accidentall but the essential formes of things , which whensoever they are two , those things , whose forms they are , cannot be one , for unius rei est unica tantum forma i. e. essentialis , of one thing there can be but one essentiaell form , there may be more accidentall , for the essential form is that quae dat esse rei , which gives every thing to be what it is , and distinguishes it so exactly from every thing else , that its uncapable thereby to be at that time another thing , and another thing of another essential form uncapable utterly to be that : now t is the very essential form , wherein sprinkling and baptizing [ alias dipping ] do differ for the essential form of that action of baptizing [ Anglicè dipping ] of persons is the putting of them under water , a covering them with water , or plunging them over head in water , but the essential form of your sprinkling is only the foisting of a litle water upon their foreheads , for it is not so much as a total sprinkling you use neither . In a word Baptizing properly is the application of the whole subject to the whole element of water Collectim , here or there gatherd together , so as to overwhelm him in it , but sprinkling properly is quite another thing , viz. the application of a little water , or some liquid element to the subject guttatim , i. e : by dropps or small portions only , so that these two , viz. your sprinkling and true baptism are no more one thing , then the hurling of a man down some Praecipice , or steep place upon spikes , that let out his heart blood , and the pricking of him till he bleed only with a pin , which in general are both a shedding of blood , as our two parrallels are both a wetting with water , but in special not the killing of a man , as neither are the other both baptizing : so that there may be many ways and meanes of doing a thing , and the thing be but one still if it have essentially but one form , but where there be many essential forms , there are ever as many several things as those are . A man may ride many waies , viz. East , West , &c. many manner of waies , viz. backward , forward , apace or slowly &c. and yet all this is riding still , while the man moves to and fro on horse back , because the very formality of that action of riding consists in being carried by another , but while he moves upon his own Legges up and down , you cannot at that time denominate him riding . In like manner a man may be baptized [ Anglice dipped ] or put under the water many manner of waies , viz. forward , backward , sideway , toward the right hand or left , quickly , slowly , and yet all this while he is baptized , if put under , because the essential form of baptism , viz. dipping in water is to be found in all these waies ; but if he have two or three drops of water only flerted upon his face , he is no more truly baptized then if you fillip him with a wet finger , for here is Differentia essentialis , the very formallity of baptism is absent . If accidentalls onely , and meer accessaries be wanting unto baptism , specially such superfluities as were in use about the Popish Rantism , as Chris● , salt , spittle , crossing , Gossips , Fonts , Basons , Cakes , and Wine , and other silly solemnities , there may be good baptism without these , but abstract the absolutely necessaries , i. e. two things , or but either of them , which yet are both wanting among you , and as blind as the Priest-hood is now , yet my life for his he shall behold it once , and own it too , that his businesse is not only not the baptism of Christ , but truly not any baptism at all . These two are first the true Subject , to whom Christ appointed baptism to be dispensed , which who it is , and who it is not ( and how it is but one , for there is but one baptism , and not two ) viz. believing Abrahams spiritual seed , and not a believing , nor unbelieving Gentiles fleshly seed , i. e. all that quoad nos believe as Abraham did , and not all that ever shall to all generations , for such are the seed as well as the immediate , descend naturally from the loines of such as do believe with Abraham , I have abundantly shewed above , nor is it my businesse here . Secondly , the true form in which Christ appointed baptism to be dispensed to believers discipled by us , which what it is you cannot be so ignorant as your practise proclaimes you to be , for I dare say it is not rantism , and you dare not deny , but that it is baptism : Both these are universally wanting , as I have proved , to your practise , yet if but either only were wanting it were null enough : For First , it is most certain that a mistake in the subject , to whom any thing is appointed to be done , doth so nullify that thing so appointed , that it can neither be said to be done as t was apponted , no nor yet that the thing appointed is done at all , e. g. The Parliament commanded men to take , or in case of their resistance to slay those Rebells that were routed at Worcester , but should he have been taken by them as obeying their command , that should in persuance thereof have beaten and killed other men , who were never there , nor at all ingaged in the Kings cause ? they ordered a thousand pound to him that should bring in Charles Stewart , should he have been rewarded as a doer of their will in that work that should have brought in another man in his stead ? Christ hath ordained , and so consequently t is his ordinance that persons shal be first taught by us and then baptized , is it therefore his ordinance to baptize them who were never taught ? the Papists have a trick to baptize ( as they call it , for they do but rantize as you do ) bells as well as babes , but if they did truly baptize their bells , were it the ordinance of Christ ? you say no ; because bells are a wrong subject , which Christ never appointed baptism to be dispensed to : the very same say we of your babies : a mistake therefore in the subject makes a nullity in the service , i. e. denies it to be any ordinance of Christ at all . Secondly , t is most certain that mistake in the matter ordained , so as to make another matter of it , or do distinctly some other thing instead of it , makes all that is done of no effect : Quod fieri non debuit factum valet holds onely where the errour is in accidentals , and meerly circumstantialls , and not in the very substance of the thing it self : if men do one thing on their own heads instead of another that God bidds , they may have pardon in case they crie him mercy , but very little thank from him for their paines : neither is he accounred , much lesse accepted as doing the ordinance of God , that doth not so much rhe same things that he ordained otherwise , but other things then he hath ordained : when the Parliament ordained , and gave commission to have Canterburies head cut off , those Synodians , who also themselves waited to have his kingdome , would hardly have counted that ordinance performed had the Trustees cut off his little finger only , and let him go . Nor would the law little lesse then hang that executioner , that having strict charge to hang one man , lets him escape , and in satisfaction falls a whipping of an other : the case is yours , who being commanded to teach persons , and then baptize them , and to keep the commands of Christ without spot till his appearing , do in his absence let go the making and baptizing disciples , and in place thereof only rantize and rantize only little infants too : in doing which , sith ye do not the thing Christ appoints , ye had as good do nothing . A certain man had two sonnes , and he said to them both , go work to day in my vineyard , one said flatly he would not , but afterwards repented him and went , the other said he would , yet did not , but found himself work of his own to do : the first did the will of his father ; so I say that the Rebellious Ranter repenting and being baptized , for else indeed heu quam procul ? how farre is he from it as now he stands , whilst he saies plainly he will have no baptism ? shall enter into the kingdome of God , before the responding Rantizer resolving wilfully to persevere in his error , under a pretence of willingnesse to obey the truth , and refusing to return , when he is convinced of it . Rantist . But the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which you so much stand upon , signifies though not to sprinkle ; yet not onely to dip and overwhelm in water , but also to wash , and so t is rendred in the Lexicons , where Lavo , abluo , are set down as at least the remote signification of it , and therefore though sprinkling be not dipping , yet t is a kind of washing , or wetting , and so may be called baptizing , as well as that , and in aliquo sensu in some sense t is one and the same with that , for quae conveniunt in aliquo tertio sunt idem , dipping and sprinkling meet both in the word washing , whch is a secondary signification of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so may well enough both be stiled baptizing . Baptist. No such matter Sirs , no not by any means in the world . For First your Rule of two things being the same that agree in a third , holds first onely and properly quoad mensuram in matter of measure , as two pieces of cloth that square every way both with one ell are the same i. e. in length , breadth , &c. not necessarily any way else . Secondly ; quoad rem it holds in the things themselves in some case and sense , i. e. if the ●ight respect be had to that same third thing , in which they agree ; which third is no other then that which stands the genus , in reference to them both , as Homo et Brutum agree both in the general name of Animal , but this se●●es not your turn here at all , where you are to prove sprinkling and baptizing [ alias dipping ] to be all one , not in general , for so many things may meet in one , that are as different as things can be , for omnia corpora sunt substantia , yea all things are one , for omnia sunt entia , but in special , so that the one is in specie the same with the other , but this cannot be said of dipping and sprinkling , for though they are both wettings with water , yet are they not both baptizings , for baptizing is not the genus in respect to them i. e. the generall of which dipping and sprinkling are the special dividing members , but baptizing it self , or dipping , for these two are adequate each to other , is the member opposite to sprinkling , and and specifically different from it , under the general word wetting with water : so that still these are not the same so as that sprinkling can possibly be called baptizing . Secondly if the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , do signifie to wash any other way then by dipping , yet that 's not the direct , immediate , primary signification of it , for that is to dip or plung , as you see in the Lexicon , but at the best it is but indirectly , collaterally , by the by , improperly and remotely that it so signifies ; and I ask whether when we try any matter by the signification of the word , as t is in the original , we shall go to the direct , original , prime and proper , or to the the occasional , remote , indirect , and improper signification to be tried by ? your practise it seems is built onely upon the indirect , improper , remote acceptations of the word , and therefore is at best onely an uncouth , indirect , improper , and farre fetcht practise . Thirdly , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies washing but it is a real total washing onely , such a washing as is by dipping plunging , and swilling the subject in water , and that signification is yet many miles off from sprinkling : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies Lavo , abluo i. e. to rinse , to wash away , to clense , which things are done onely , or at least most effectually immergendo , by putting things in water , and swilling them therein : So that still such a washing as baptism is , sprinkling is not , and so you are never the nearer for all this . Yea Fourthly , neither do baptizing and sprinkling meet one another so much as in that third word washing , so that they may be both properly predicated by it , though in that more general word wetting they do : for howbeit baptism is truly called a washing Heb. 10.22 . and your bodies washed in pure water , yet ne in aliquo sensu can sprinkling be truely so called unlese it be in insano sensu alias , non-sensaliter , for in sano sensu it cannot : yea I appeal to all men to recollect to their remembrance , whether they ever saw any thing truly washt in the way of sprinkling , especially whether ever they saw any one wash things so well as they must do , who are said Lauare , abluere , to rinse , to clense , which are the senses , in which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , signifies to wash , in such a sleight way of wetting them , as is made by such a sprinkling onely as you use ? Rantist . The Pharises Mat. 7.4 . held the washing of hands , cups , pots , brazen vessels , beds and tables , and their washings are called baptisms , and 〈◊〉 can you conceive they did any more then sprinkle water up on them ? Baptist. Yea surely Sirs , why not ? they swilled , and rinsed , and clensed , and totally wetted them with water , or else I am sure they could never be said properly to baptize ; but by the spirit , whoever uses that word when he speaks of sprinkling , they would certainly be said to Rantize them : Besides shew me any that use to wash , whether it be hands , face , dishes , spoones , trenchers , pots , cups , clothes , brazen vessels , or beds either , when they are by any ishue defiled , and I le venter to vent this verdict on such that they are but sluts , and slovens if they do but sprinkle them . Rantist . There may he washings though , and dippings too , but what needs such a totall dipping as you use ? what command can you have in all the Word for such a mad●● manner of administration , that surely is more then needs : a man may love his house well enough , and yet not ride on top on 't , and so many persons like the way of dipping , and washing in the dispensation , we now talk of , yea and practise it too , and yet judge it needlesse to run persons into rivers , and ponds , and there plunge them quite over head and ears . Baptist. To make good this doctrine of totall dipping against such as dippe onely secundum partem , as well as those that ( in part also ) do but sprinkle , I argue as followes . Secondly , from the practise of the primitive times , wherein it is most evident they were totally baptized , or dipped , and that they were so appears plainly . First , by the Scripture formes of speech , and expressions used about that matter , which import and betoken no lesse , viz. 1. if there were no other evidence the very denomination it self of baptized●hat ●hat is given shewes it , which in propriety of speech , and according to the prime and native signification of the word is as much as totally dipped , or wholly overwhelmed , and covered with water , put under water , which they could not possibly in common sense , and reason be said properly to be , if they were but a little wet about the eye-browes only , as those are to whom you dispense , handling them as if you were affraid too much to wet them : surely it would not have been said baptized ▪ much lesse baptized in Iordan , least of all baptized into Iordan , ( as t was said of people had they not been immersi , submersi , for so baptized is , i. e. put into , put wholly under the water by Iohn . Rantist . But if you stand so much on the signification of the word , why do you not drown persons when you baptize them ? for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to drown , as well as douz● or dip . Baptist. This interposition is so weak and silly , that some may suppose I frame such a simple businesse as this my self , on purpose to render the Rantists the more ridiculous ; but I professe , as ridiculous as it is , it was once put to me by a Countrey Clergy man before a great Auditory of people , and was as well laught at by them . To which I answer ( if a little more yet much what ) to the same tune as I then did , viz. besides the signication of the word , which justifies our practise of putting under water , we have president , not only for that , but also for the bringing persons up alive again , not only for burying them in baptism , but for the raising them again therein before their bodies a●e dead ▪ neither have we any president that they of old did use to drown them , and thereupon we let it alone ; yea Sirs we leave that Diabolicall dispensation of Drowning the disciples of Christ to the Churches , of whom Dr. Featley boasts , who at the Rates , whereby you reckon us to be Anabaptists are An-Anabaptists , whilest they ordered as he saies p. 68. That such as prophaned their first baptism by a second dipping , should rue it by a third immersion : as namely at Zeurick where after many disputations between Zwinglius , and the Anabaptists the Senate made an act , that if any presumed to rebaptize those that were baptised before , they should be drowned ; and at Vienna , where many Anabaptists ( so you call Christs true disciples ) were so tyed together in chaines , that one drew the other after him into the river , where they were all suffocated : This president we leave to those Ministers , and their Churches , that list to prosecute according to it , as Dr. Featley , and not he only , whose patience was Praelatical , but even Presbyteriall Mr. Baxter also seem to do , whilest they incense the Magistrate against us what in them lies , meerly for baptizing believers totally according to Christs will , as if we were even therefore only the veriest vipers unde● heaven , and charge us downrightly ( for so Mr. Baxter doth ) p. 134. as wilful murderers , which in conscience can call for no lesse then cutting off by the civil sword , which rash charge of us the Lord never charge him with if it be his will to condemnation , but only to conviction ; that he may see and confesse with confusion of face to his consolation , that he hath wronged a people precious to God , and more privy to his will in many things then himself . But if he or any still list to be contentious for such a baptizing of disciples as that was viz. a drowning of them in the deep waters of affliction , and overwhelming of them in the proud billowes of persecution , the baptism wherewith Christ himself was and every disciple of his must be baptized , let that be the custome of them and their Churches to baptize the Saints so if they will , But I assure you we have no such custome , nor the Churches of God. Rantist . Now you talk of dipping and drowning and baptizing by afflictions , you put me in mind of one thing which seems to me to make against you in this , for the very sufferings of the Saints with Christ ( as you hint above ) are stiled a baptism , and therefore sure the word baptism may be used to expresse a smaller matter , then that totall dipping and drowning , which it signifies somtimes , for the Saints , though they have many sorrowes , yet are they not totally drowned , nor sunk under them , for Christ both bears them up , and brings them out , if he should contend for ever their spirits would faile before him , and those souls that he hath made ; and yet these are said to be baptized : and also they are said to be baptized with the spirit , when yet it s but powred upon them . Baptist. Totally drowned ? no : who doub●s of that ? neither do we totally drown them we dip , but bear them up , and bring them out , and save them from dying , as else they would do , under the water , if they should ly there after a while , and this we do in token and resemblance of that salvation , which Christ shews to his Saints , both under and after some small sufferings for him . Neverthelesse the Saints sufferings are not so smal , but that they are oft times totally drenched therby , and overwhelmed ( as he that is baptized in water ) with tribulation , temptation , scorn , ignominy , and covered therewith as with a Cloud : as we see the Saints complaints in this case Psal. 55.5 . horror hath overwhelmed me Psal. 61.2 . my heart is overwhelmed Psal. 77.5 . I am troubled , my spirit is overwhelmd Psal. 102 1. intituled a prayer of the afflicted , when he is overwhelmed , or covered is the title of the Psalm , and this is with the waters of affliction , Psal. 124.4 . so 142 . 3.-143.4.-so see Psa. 69.2.16 . where there is complaints of sinking as it were over head and ears , in deep mi●e , and in deep waters , where the flouds overflow , and prayer for deliverance from those swallowings up by them , in token among other things of which continual dying in the world , as well as to it , and universal passing under the waters of affliction , and overwhelming therewith here in this life , we do baptize , i. e. sink persons over head and ears , as well as raise them again alive , in token of their resurrection from all troubles at the last daie : therefore o how much of that precious signification , and representation , that is in true baptism is lost in your sprinkling , and dribling dipping the face only , which some use ? In respect also of which plungings and overwhelmings with sufferings their sufferings are Metaphorically stiled a baptism Mat. 20.22 . which Metaphor is very familiar in Scripture , which compares the calamities , and miseries the Saints suffer in this mortal life gurgitibus aquarum , quibus veluti morguntur , to overflowing streames of water , wherein they are almost drownd , and therefore said to be baptized . As for the baptism with the spirit , he that shall say it is not such a powring out , as seasons the whole man soul and body , and every faculty of one and member of the other ( which if it be , it may well be called a baptism ) where in part at least all parts are purged , but of spiritualizing of some parts of the man onely , suppose his face and head , not his heart hands and feet also , but leaving other parts of him carnal and unsanctified , is not yet so well seasoned as he should be with understanding in the Grace of the Gospel . All this therefore speaks plainly to our purpose , and so it is evident still that the primitive Saints were totally dipped , by the bare denomination of baptized , which in that particular is spoken of them . Secondly it appears yet much more plainly by the subject so denominated in Scripture , and said to be baptized , which is their whole persons , for t is said they were baptized , i. e. men and women , and not their faces or their hands , or their feet onely ; for if any member onely had been baptized , it could not be said properly but onely figuratively and improperly ( and we are to take things in the most proper sense they will well bear ) that men and women were baptized , or that their bodies were washed with water , as in baptism they are said to be Heb. 10.22 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when a denomination is made of any whole subject to be so or so , that is not wholly and totally so , that denomination is commonly made saltem ex majori , from the Major part of the subjects being so at least , and then too it is but by the figure Synechdoche , whereby we must understand that by that whole some part onely is meant , but a denomination of a subject Ex minori parte , onely from some small part thereof being so , is a thing seldome or never used , and scarce cleared alwayes from absurdity , when it is by Synechdoche it self : for he that should denominate his horse white , and commonly call and distinguish him from all his other horses , by the name of his white horse , onely from a starre he hath in his forehead , when all the rest of his body is black , would be counted as bruitish as the horse himself , specially if he should conceive himself speaking properly enough when he speaks so : yet little otherwise then thus do you speak , and think you speak properly enough too , whilst you commonly call them i. e those persons , baptized , that never had more then a little , baptism I cannot call it neither , but meer Rantism on their faces , from which though we are foold together with you by a custome of speech to afford persons that denomination of sprinkled at least , yet to say the truth , t is more then may be well challenged from us , if we should stand upon it , and plead for propriety to the utmost , or for denomination but ex majori , which reason would back us in if we should , so little of that little subject i. e. the infant , whose face onely you sprinkle , is sprinkled by you when all is done , but we let that passe : Neverthelesse , know this that totall baptizing is the onely true baptizing , and a subject not baptized totally may not be said to be baptized properly , but onely figuratively and Synechdochecally , and surely the spirit speaks not all along by Senechdoche , and t is as improper almost if not altogether to say that man is baptized , whose fingers , face , hands or feet onely have toucht the water , as t is to say the swan is black , because his feet are so , or the black-moor white , because his teeth are so : expresse not dentes et pedes , and then Ethiops albus , and Cygnus niger are two monstrous creatures indeed , and baptizatus merè rantizatus is no other , then rara avis in terris nigroque simillima Cygno . We may not therefore , without abuse to our selves and them , conceive them that wrote the hystories of the new Testament , that we might know the certainty of those things , which were at first done Luke 1.14 . and to this very end too that we might do thereafter , to speak so improperly all along , as to declare and denominate those to us to be baptized i. e. in true English washt , plunged in water subm●rsi dipt under water , who if it were then as you say , or at least , as you do now , were onely wetted with a few drops , or if dipt , whose noses , foreheads or faces onely felt the water : the wisdome of the spirit in them would rather have used the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as he ever doth , when he would have us conceive no more then sprinkling , as Heb. 9. or else some more moderate phrase suitable to such a petty padling as face dripping is , had that been the onely way of those times , then the word baptize , or else have exprest that particular , or member of the body , which onely was baptized , if he would not have been understood as speaking of the whole , for that 's the usuall way wherein the spirit speaks , when he speaks of the dipping of some members onely , as Luke 16.24 . when he speaks of the dipping of a member onely , he expresses the member so dipt , and the particuler subject so denominated , he saies not send Lazarus that he may be dipt , or that he may dip himself , or that he may dip his body in water , but that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and coole my tongue , so Mat. 26.23 . he that dippeth his hand with me in the dish ; he denominates not the man dipt from the dipping of so smal a member as the hand , or face , or feet , or what ever member of the body it was that you imagine was then baptized ; for that wetting of the face onely came up surely in Cyprians daies , when they had got that trick of ease to be baptized , I should say to have their faces , the onely member at that time extant , besprinkled in their beds . Rantist . But Mark 7.4 . Christ speaks thus of the Pharisees , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. unlesse they be baptized they eat not , and yet by that baptism is meant no more but the washing of their hands , and that appears plainly in the very verse above where it s said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. unlesse they wash their hands , and then immediately after thus , and when they come from market , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , except they be washed i. e. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in their hands , suitable to what 's said before , they eat not , yea and surely he would have exprest so much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but that t was exprest so just before under 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that it was needlesse to repeat it , and therefore he rather leaves it to be understood , therefore sometimes you see Christ denominates men baptized , or washed , when no more then some members of them are dipped , or washed . Baptist. That by the baptism or washing spoken of v. 4. and exprest by the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is meant no other then the washing of the hands of the Pharisees I freely grant , and also that the 3. verse so clearly proves it , that no man living I think may rationally deny it : nor can I think that the Pharisees when ever they came from market were plunged ore head and ears before they sat down to dinner , or were washed or baptized any further then manuum tenus , onely in that part viz. their hands , but I beseech you be you as ingenuous in acknowledging what you must also necessarily grant , and what you have in a manner given and granted also viz. that the force and sense of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the verse before is carried to the 4 verse , so that it must be understood to the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 also , as following it , as well as it followes the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , though it be exprest onely under the first of them , and then your recourse to the former verse for the finding out of the sense of this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 makes much for the proof of what I say viz. that Christ does not usually denominate the whole man to be dipt , or baptized , when yet he meanes that some part of him onely is baptized or washt , without expressing some way or other that part of the body , wherein he is washt , and according to which onely he denominates him so to be : for even here , by your own plea ( and t is the truth ) we must to the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] except they be baptized , subaudire 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 understand this word [ their hands ] which as you say , so I say also would undoubtedly have been set down under the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to shew that to be the plain sense and meaning out viz. washing the hands , but that it was so newly named before under 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that its more elegantly understood then exprest . So that the place runs as smooth for us as we would have it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( subaudi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Pharisees except ever and anon they wash or be washt ( as to the hands at least ( for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the first future of the middle voice , and is read either actively , or passively , but rather passively ) they eat not , and when they come from the market unlesse they be washed ( meaning manuum tenus as just before ) they eat not . Assuredly , therefore Sirs , sith the Apostles , and Evangelists all along in the new testament tell us of men and women that were baptized , or washt by dipping into the water , without varying this word , or using any more words , whereby to give us to take that in a more moderate sense then for total dipping , and all this too without any expression of any particular parts , or members of those men and women , nor any more particular subject of that baptism then the whole persons , the bodies of those men and women , they meant to acquaint us thereby , that those men and women were totally dipped , that we might be so also af●er their example , or else their denominations of men and women baptized , dipped in Iordan so often , so onely used are scare fair , free , plain , and proper , but rather ( contrary to what Paul professes , when he saies we use all plainnesse of speech ) forced , improper , figurative , dark , and delusive , which farre be it from us once to think . Thirdly , as far as the thing well can , or at least need to appear in the word by instance , and example it appears in Mat. 3.16 . Act. 8.38 . by the baptism of Christ , and the Eunuch that the form and manner of baptizing was then , and is now to be by a total dipping of the party . Rantist . There is no pooof of universals by particulars ; besides it will hardly be make good that Christ and the Eunuch were dipped : mark and peruse what Doctor Featley saies to this , and some other passages , and places of Scripture p. 69. This saith he is a weak and childish fallacy , for ex particulari non est Syllogizati , no man in his right wits will conclude a general from a particular , viz. some men that were baptized went into the River , theref●re all that are baptized must do so ; the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sometimes signifies to dip , Ergo it must alwaies signifie so , besides Act. 11.16 . Iohn 1.26 . the Preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies not in but with ( as the words immediately fol●owing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make it plain ) notwithstanding I grant ( saith he ) that Christ and the Eunuch were baptized in the River , and that such baptism of men , especially in the hotter Clymates , hath been , is and may lawfully be used : yet there 's no proof at all of dipping or plunging , but only of washing in the River , but the question is whether no other baptizing is lawful , or whether dipping in Rivers be so necessary to baptism , that none are accounted baptized , but those , who are dipt after such a manner ? This we say is false , neither do any of the texts alledged prove it , it is true dipping is a kind of baptizing , but all baptizing is not dipping , the Apostles were baptized with fire not dipt into it , Tables and beds were baptized , i. e. washed , yet not dipped , Israel baptized with the cloud not dipped into it , Christ and Zebedees children baptized with blood , yet neither he nor they dipt into it . All this he writes in Answer to what you say as if he had foreseen it by way of preoccupation , and one thing more which I had like to have left out , The Fathers called Teares a Baptism , yet there is no dipping in that Baptisme . Baptist. These are Dr. Featleys feat , feigned and frivolous interjections indeed , in Answer to Rs. Argument from the same examples , to all which I reply as followes . First , from particulars universals will not follow is a rule that will not universally follow neither , but in some particular cases only , For first out of its particulars collectim consideratis considered all together the knowledge and true understanding of the universall doth not onely consist , but exist also , i. e. appear by all its singulars severally observed . Secondly , Though there are cases , wherein one or some few singulars singled out , and considered Sig●ll●tim apart from the rest , do not prove all the rest universally so to be , as they are , as namely when that one , or these few particulars are extraordinarily , or ( as I may say ) singularly or choicely so or so , e. g. the particular cases of Iohn the Baptist being filled so timely with the holy spirit , and of Ieremiahs being seperated ( for so the spirit meanes by that word sanctifyed Ier. 1.5 . ) from the womb to be a prophet , and of Paul● being seperated from the womb to be an Apostle , Gal. 1.15 . these do not prove ( as you sometimes very simply , falsly and fallaciously infer , at least from that of Iohn ) that therefore infants of believers at least are in general filled with the holy spirit , and ordinarily sanctifyed in their infancy : for it was only the measure of Iohn Baptists gifts ( say you my Ashford Antagonists p. 16. ) that makes his Example extraordinary , as if it were ordinarily commonly , and generally so , that believers infants are filled with the spirit , as well as he , though not so fully as he was : but these are childish consequences , and infantish inferences indeed , from these singulars , for the cases were singular cases , and notoriously known not to be incident to all . Or else when the matters in such particulars , from which we would argue that t is generally or universally so , are meerly fortuito , accidentally adventitious , not necessary per se , de essentia , & naturà thereunto , then there is no evincing a general by it , for it followes not that because one man , or a few men are blind , and lame or maimed , or sick , therefore all are so ; or when a matter is meerly indifferent , ad placitum , and not ex necessitate praecepti , necessary by any positive command of the same thing unto all , as well as some , then t is silly Syllogizing from some to all , as to say some men , who were weak did eat herbs , therefore all the disciples did , and we all must eat no other . But again there are cases , wherein it followes from one to all , as when the matter spoken of that one doth agree to it , per se , and quâ tale , then t is true de omni also , as one man quâ homo is a reasonable creature , Ergo all men are so ; there are cases also , wherein the Example of what particular persons then did do prove what all then did , or should have done , & what all ejusdem capacitatis now should do in like manner ; as namly when the matter done by those particulars is necessary & no other then what by duty they stood bound to , & that by vertue of a cleer command given out not to them only , but to all those that are in the same capacity in common with them ; but specially when those particulars are recorded for our instruction , and to be patterns and examples for us to follow , then all ought to be in general , as that is , and so Paul followed Christ , and others ought to follow him & be as he was : and of this sort is the case here in hand , and the examples of the baptism of Christ Jesus and the Eunuch , from which we shew how all men ( if at all ) ought of right to be baptized : for though your Doctor disciples you ( not denying in the mean while but that baptizing in Rivers is lawful , and mark that I pray , for it sets our baptizing in rivers out of the reach of all your exceptions , who snarle at it ) though I say he disciples you blindly into a belief , that there is another baptism lawful besides that which Christ & the Eunuch had , and that dipping in rivers is not so necessary to baptism , but that they may be accounted baptized , who never were dipped after such a manner , yet I tell you , through whom he being dead yet speaketh , that if by Rivers he means as we mean viz. any places where there is so much water as will well serve to dipp persons ( and so he must mean , for else it might be but a pond for ought he knew , where the Eunuch was dipped , for it is called but a certain water in the way ) and if by that other lawful baptizing , then that which is received in Rivers , and places of much water , he mean no other then rantizing at Fonts , or as you have now contracted the businesse at Basons , where there is water enough to sprinkle an 100. but not half water enough to baptize one , you will find that at last to be so far off from being the same water baptism wherewith Christ and the Eunuch were baptized , that it doth not come so neer it as it would do , if it were ( as the Doctor calls it ) another baptism , sith it is not so much as any baptism at all , for another baptism ( such as Paedo-baptism would be if men did use it ) would be some kind of kin to the baptism of Christ , they both meeting at least in the name of baptism , yet so little that Christ will never own it for his , but no baptism , and such Paedo-rantism is , is not so much as nomine tenus in the bare name of baptism any kin to Christ , but that you falsly father it on him as his . So that in truth our talk with you about another kind of baptizing then that of Christ , and the Eunuch will be but impertinent , unlesse , you practised another , neverthelesse for discourse sake , and in resolution to the question as the Doctor states it in reference ( no question ) to his own practise , viz. whether no other baptizing then that which Christ and the Eunuch had is lawful ? which is as much as to say , whether another water baptism may not serve the turn as well ? or whether Christ hath not more water baptismes then one ? I answer no there is , i. e. ought to be but one baptism Eph. 4. but one water baptisme , one kind of baptisme of that one kind , that must be the meaning , for else there 's more i. e. more kinds of baptisme then one : Hebr. 6.2 . i. e. of Water , Spirit , Sufferings . Supposing therefore your Baby-rantism to be that other baptism ( where note that himself confesses yours , for that sure he means to be another baptizing then that Iohn and Philip dispensed ) supposing it I say to be that other baptism he pleads the lawfulnesse of , yet sith Christ ownes but one , even that alienation were enough to discard it as unlawful , and none of Christs , as well as its being none at all , for new baptism and no baptism will speed both alike with him at last ; or if he mean onely that another manner of baptizing in water is lawful then he hath no enemy of us in that point ( save that we still shall differ about the subject ) for let any administrator take profest believers onely , and baptize them , i. e. overwhelm them in water , and let him do it where he will , yea how he will for me viz. backwards or forwards , sidelong or headlong , so he do it , and they be not naked . Rantist . But still me thinks the main things the Dr. drives at remain unresolved , for he tells you first that if it could be made appear that Christ and the Eunuch went into the water , and were totally dipt , yet thereby it appears not that all others must be baptized in such a manner . Secondly that it cannot be made appear , that either of them were dipt or plunged , but onely washt in the River . Baptist. No ? did I not shew you sufficiently above in what cases particular examples do prove , what the general primitive practise was , and may be argued from as from a general rule of what ever ought to be viz. when that , or those particular practises are enjoined to all as well as to some , in one and the same word of righteousnesse , but specially when propounded as paterns , and written as rules for our instruction , and such are both these baptismes of Christ and the Eunuch , which had never been recorded , but for our learning and for examples sake unto us , in which respect , though he needed no baptism , as we do , to be a token to baptism , for howbeit it was partly , and perhaps primarily , to fulfill all the righteousnesse of his own law , as well as of Moses Law , in his own person , as he testifies it became him to do in Mat. 3. for he exacts , and expects no more obedience to himself , and the father either active or passive from us , then he acted and yielded to the father first himself , yet was he baptized partly also to the same end , in order to which he did all things else , that he either did or endured , which was imitable , and remaining for us to do after him , as baptism is viz. that he might leave us , who are so often charged to follow him , an example that we should follow his steps Mat. 16.24 . 1 Pet. 2.21 . Rantist . This is true the matter of his baptism is imitable by us , and we are to be baptized as well as he , nor do I yet see reason ( as the Ranter seems to himself to do ) why Christ himself should be ingaged to baptism , or the Eunuch either , and our selves exempted from it : but whether it be so needfull to be done just in that manner as you would make it to be , I see no ground yet to believe that . Baptist. Can you be baptized in a better manner think you then that wherein Iohn baptized Christ , and Philip the Eunuch ? me thinks you should not derogate so much from the wisdome of those Primitive Administrators , as to imagine such a thing , and if you cannot are you not half wild in contending for a worse ? Or Secondly would you be baptized in , not so low , base , contemptible , ridiculous tedious a way to the flesh as they , but in a more honourable , more moderate , more easie , more tollerable , more world winning , more self pleasing , more flesh favoring a manner ? or what is it you would have ? me thinks either that soure service of going down into a River , or pond , and being dipt , or overwhelmed in water there , which served our Lord Iesus Christ , and that honourable Eunuch , might serve you , or else that easie sweet service of sprinkling which you content your selves with , might have served them , one of the two : for as they were required to be baptized no more then you , so surely in no more unwelcome a way of baptism then your selves ; and they would not have so farre supererrogated as to have been baptized at all , if it would have fulfilled righteousnesse in that point to have been sprinkled onely on the forehead . Nay that would not , for saies Christ when he came to Iohn , and Iohn at first refused to baptize him , Thus it becometh us to fulfill righteousnesse : Thus i. e. not onely in this matter , but in this manner , but if you will needs perform this service more easily then Christ and the Eunuch did , perform it onely ( as in sprinkling you do not ) and let be done in what manner , or accidental form you please , and if you like not to do it openly in Rivers or such like places , we stand not on those nicities ( though many thousands of Primitive Saints as well as modern were , and are so baptized ) let it be done in a Cistern , so it be totally and truly done , yea make one big enough for the disciple and the dispenser to go down in both together , so that the one may conveniently be overwhelmed in water by the other , and then let it be done in a bason , if you please . As for the other thing the Dr. saies viz. that there is no proof at all of the dipping , or plunging Christ and the Eunuch , but onely of their washing in the River I wonder the Dr. did not look into his Lexicon , before he asserted such an absurdity as this , if he had , he might have found cujus contrarium , that there is proof enough that they were dipped , or plunged in the alledged texts , but no proof at all that they were washed in any other way : for the very thing that is related of them both , is that they were dipt , plunged , or washed by dipping ; t is said of Christ plainly Mat. 3.15 . c that he came to Iohn to this very end that he might be baptized by him , and verse 16. being baptized he ascended presently from the water , and of Philip and the Eunuch Act. 8.38 , they descended down both into the water , both Philip and the Eunuch , and he baptized him , and ver . 39. when they were come up or ascended out of ●he water : Now I appeal to all rational and unprejudiced men in the world , that are skilled so farre in the greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as to have once seen the genuine sense , and signification of it in any Lexicon , e which is to dip , plunge , put under water , overwhelm with water primarily , and secondarily to wash or clense by dipping , or dousing , f whether there be not in those Scriptures plain proof of their dipping and plunging , or washing by dipping , and not the least hint or evidence of any other washing at all . The Dr. himself grants that they went into the River , I marvel to what purpose if not to be dipt there , he confesses also that Christ and the Eunuch were baptized , which in plain English is dipt , or overwhelmed in the River , mark his words [ in the river ] also that such baptism of men , especially in the hotter cl●mates , both hath been , is and may be lawfully used , and yet for all that , denies either of them to have been dipt , or plunged in the River , or that any one may now lawfully be served so : I marvell much what they did in the river , before they came out of it , o ( quoth he ) they were washt in the river , and yet not so as by dipping neither , good Sirs let us examine this a little , for I cannot for my life ken what washing the Dr. means , besides this of dipping , or how any other washing was performed . First to be sure it was not by sprinkling , which yet is all in all among you , and that for these reasons . First , because it s most certain that the greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath no such signification as to sprinkle , neither is it rendred any where Aspergo , in any Lexicon or any translator of the testament whatsoever . Secondly because sprinkling is no kind of washing at all , neither is there any thing in the world ( save as I said before by sluts and slovens ) so much as undertaken to be washt onely by that act of sprinkling , much lesse by such a sparing sprinkling as yours is , who sprinkle not the 20th part pro toto : indeed a thing may in time be so totally wetted by a continued sprinkling , as it may be put therby into some kind of capacity to be clensed by rubbing it while the water is on it , and that is farre from your practise too , but not half so well as when it is swilled in water ; and in a long while a garment may be all covered colored , and as it were died by sprinkling , as Christ is said in the continued war he wages at the last , partly by the sprinkling of peoples blood upon him , and partly by his riding up and down in the wine press , where there are , as there are usually in wars , garments rould in blood , and blood up to the horse bridles , to have his raiment all stained and his vesture as it were died and dipt in blood , but all this is hyperbolicall locution , and not to be wrested to such purpose as Mr. Cook and Mr. Blake do , who because there is not enough neer hand , fetch a proof for sprinkling fourty miles off , which yet proves nothing when it comes , for they know Allegories do rather illustrate then evince , but this is not such a deep dying as is by dipping . Thirdly , it had been a most vain thing for them to have gone down into the River meerly to be sprinkled , if that were the onely businesse they might well have been dispenst with from descending into the water , but sith they were not , it shews that such a thing as sprinkling might excuse them , and if not them , I know not why it should excuse the best of us ; though men do much in the service of God in vain , when they do things that man doth , but God never did require at their hands , yet we cannot think Christ did any thing in vain , yet so we must think if we think he went into a river to receive no more then sprinkling : and so we must think of the Eunuch also , of whom we have little reason so to think , for great folks and nobles , such as he was , love to do as little as may be in contradiction to the flesh , and no more then needs must be in this point of baptism , if at all they stoop to it : for he need not have hindred himself so long in his journey , nor diseased himself so much in his body , as to have descended out of his chariot , and after into the water , but might much rather have sent Philip , or his servant to have fetcht so much water in the hollow of his hand , as would have served very well to have sprinkled him , if no more then so had been required . Fourthly it had been stark non-sense for Mark to have said of Christ as he doth Mark. 1.9 . he was baptized of Iohn in Iordan , if he were not dipt , or if by baptized we must understand sprinkled , for he was sprinkled into the River is as absurd and unelegant English , as to say he was dipt into the rain . Secondly it was not by powring water upon them , that Christ and the Eunuch were washed : this is the baptism Mr. Baxter pretends to , as that , and that only which ever he saw dispensed in all his life , as it were disclaiming the way of sprinkling , which yet is your onely wonted way : I believe he saw good cause to be ashamed of owning that any longer for baptism ▪ as many a one besides him is , who with him puts it off thus , that their baptism is not by the way of sprinkling , but powring of water upon the infans , for my part ( saith he p. 134. ) I may say as Mr. Blake , that I never saw a child sprinkled , but all that I have seen baptized , had water powred on them and so were washed . And Mr. Blake saies p. 4. of his answer to Mr. Blackwood , that he never saw nor heard of any sprinkled . O the egregious shifts and shuffling evasions of these men , who perceiving the perverse practise of sprinkling infants summoned , and sub paena'd , to come to a trial by the word of God , do disguise it out of its old name , that it hath born with content , and without controul for ages and generations , and doth still among many of their own party , till now they begin to see it more strictly then ever enquired after , and likely to come into trouble for its transgression from Christs command ) and shroud it under another name , whereby to secure it , so that now they know not , nor ever saw or heard of any such manner of thing done in all the world . No Sirs ? what never ? that is strange : what parts of Christendome have you lived , or do you live in ? I profess for my part I have lived a Sprinkler of infants my self about some seven or eight years , not only in several parishes , but in several parts of our English Christendome , far distant , yet so far as I remember , I did never see till I came acquainted with the people , whom you nick name Anabaptists , any thing done by any in that particular , that might well bear any other name then that of sprinkling , yea I know where a dispensation of baptism ( as t was called ) was done so slenderly once to the child of a noted Clergy man , that the father himself was so far in doubt , whether there was so much as sprinkling , or any water at all dropt from the fingers of the Dispenser , that he doubted a while after ( whether he do still or no I know not ) whether it were not his duty to have it done over again a little better ; the Gentleman I speak of , if ever he read this , will surely remember both what , and what Child of his I mean. Mean while what more then sprinkling was ever done by my self , or any other in that place , or any other wherever I have been , I cannot call to mind , neither do I know that ever ( till of late , that men see advantage lost by it in this controversy ) the name of sprinkling was denyed to what was done in all places of England , save such where the manner was , and very newly is upon sight of the falsenesse of the way of sprinkling , to dippe a little more then the tippe of their Noses . Besides though the Rubrick did prescribe dipping as the onely right form , wherin baptism is to be dispensed and in case of weakness declared it sufficient to pour water upon a child , yet what kind of powring was universally used by them who never used dipping , is evident by the Rubrick , if we will give it leave to expound it self , for in the Catechism thereof , which is not unknown to Mr Blake , and Mr. Baxter both to have been taught or commanded to be taught all children at any years in all parishes of England , this question , viz. what is the visible sign or form in baptism ? is thus resolved viz. water wherein the person baptized is dipped or SPRINKLED with it , in the name &c. So that howbeit the Bishops were pleased to use the word pouring water ( as you do ) yet a great piece of pouring it was I promise you that their Priests practised to infants ( and it is a chance whether Mr. Baxter and Mr. Blake have not in the infancy of their administration , which I suppose was in the bishops reign , done the like , though now happily they make a little better measure , or at least seen the like at some time or other , but me thinks they cannot chuse but have heard of the like in one place of the world or other ) a poor piece of pouring , I say when their hands onely being put into water were after held up perpendiculariter over the infants face , that it might be wetted a little with what fell guitatim from their fingers ends . And this hath been the most usual way that I have seen , in respect of which I may say the Priest that administred all commonly by book , and wi●hin book , did act beside book , and without book in that service , for howbeit he was in joined to dip the child in the water , as the most expedient way at least , and not so much as to dispence by powring water , unlesse in case of weaknesse onely , yet he made bold , having an inch given him to take an ell , i. e. upon leave granted him to forbear dipping in time of weaknesse only , to forbear dipping altogether , and being authorized by the same Ghostly fathers the Bishops to make powring suffice instead of dipping at such time onely , wherein dipping might not be safely used , to make sprinkling serve instead of pouring also : and in this manner I am perswaded the world was gulled by the Clergy in Cyprians daies , and after , who having the verdict of so grave a Father as Cyprian was , that application of water in the bed might stand for baptism in time of sicknesse , in case the sicknesse proved unto death ( for if they recovered even in his judgement they ought to be had to the River and dipt ) for ease sake to the flesh , and such like self ends , made some slender slabber to stand for baptism altogether . And that sprinkling only hath been the general way of England its evident enough to any , save such , as seeing see not , and have ears and hear not : yea as shy as Mr. Blake and Mr. Baxter are of that name sprinkling , as blind and deaf as they would make themselves in this case , as though they never saw nor heard of any sprinkled , yet there are Divines famous in their account , who own it , some of which seem to speak , as if they never heard of such a thing as powring of water in the dispensation of baptism , but only of dipping and sprinkling as the only forms that ever they had the hap to hear of : witnesse ( besides several other Catachistical composures , that I have seen ) that specialy of Mr. Ball a man not only vindicated by Mr. Marshall , but much magnified by Mr. Baxter by the titles of Rutherfords second , excellent Mr. Ball , judicious Mr. Ball , no Dull Divine to be easily misled p. 131.132 . which Mr. Ball in his Catachise p. 24. speaking of the outward sign , element , action , speaks much what as it is in the Rubrick , viz. water , wherewith the person baptized is washed by dipping or sprinkling in the name &c. as if he had never seen water poured on a child , but all that ever he saw had been either dipped or sprinkled . Nay more then all this , witnesse also the very man that manages this very cause together with them , viz. Mr. Cook , whom I dare say Mr. Baxter and Mr. Blake have read , and made no little use of , for he hath furnished them both with sundry of their Arguments against dipping , this man in opposition to A. R. which A. R. speaking of sprinkling , excludes it by this disjunction , viz. that the use of water must be either by infusion or dipping answers thus , not only to the clean contradicting of Mr. Blake and Mr. Baxter and to the proving of them but so so in their denyals , that ever they saw , or heard of any sprinkled , but also to the excluding of infusion or pouring , which yet in other places he pleads for , which Mr. Blake and Mr. Baxter say is the only way , yea all the way that they have seen save dipping , which yet one of them never saw at all , and to the evincing of sprinkling to be one of the ordinary waies of baptizing : for page . 11. whereas A. R. saies the use of water must be either by infusing or dipping , but not by infusing nor sprinkling , for he counts them much what one , therefore by dipping , Mr. Cook tells him , as if he had never seen or heard of such a thing as pouring , which is all that Mr. Baxter saies he saw in his daies , that the ordinary use of the water is one of these two waies , viz. either by dipping or sprinkling yet Mr. Blake that hath read Mr. Cook , never heard of any sprinkled : So Calvin , Tylenus , Buchan , and all call it either Aspersim , or Immersion : yet again some Divines seem to speak , as if they never saw nor heard of such a thing as dipping , unlesse among the Heretical Anabaptists , which yet is the onely true and primitive form of Baptism , but onely of pouring on of water or sprinkling , witnesse the whole Synod of Divines , who in their directory direct the world further out of the way of the word in point of baptism , then the Bishops in their Rubrick did , for they in their Liturgy appointed dipping to be done , as the most expedient form , and powring on water onely in case of necessity , but the other in theirs directly exclude dipping , as a thing no where appearing to be needful , and order that either of the other shall serve without it : for these are their words p. 45. of the Directory , viz. He is to baptize the child with water , which for the manner of doing it , is not only lawful but sufficient , and most expedient to be by powring or sprinkling of the water on the face of the child : whether any thing that ever hath been done by any in obedience to this directory in that second way of sprinkling , which Mr. Baxter denies that he ever saw done , and Mr. Blake that he ever heard of as done to any , did ever reach Mr. Baxters eye , or Mr. Blakes eare , I leave them seriously to examine ; but this I am sure of that the baptism of Christ and the Eunuch was dispensed neither by sprinkling as I have shewed above , nor yet by bare pouring on of water which they so plead for : and this I shall now make appear as plainly as the other . For First in vain did they descend into the River to have nothing but water poured on them with no greater spout or stream then what runs down contiguously from the hallow of ones hand ; but Christ did nothing surely in vain , and Philip and the Eunuch might well have spared their paines in wetting themselves so much , as they must needs do by going down both into the water , and as sufficiently discharged such a service by standing only on the shore . Secondly , if by powring you mean the powring of a farre greater quantity of water then what can he held in the hand , as namely out of some scoop , or vessel used to such a purpose upon the face or head , as that might have been done full as well by the water side , if they had not gon down into the water , so it must have been as tedious by running down into their necks and bosomes , and so necessarily have occasioned the trouble of the shifting of themselves , as very dipping it self can be , or do . Thirdly , t was not by washing them in any other way , excepting still that of dipping , suppose by applying water to them with their hands or otherwise , and then rubbing it on their bodies , for if so , then this washing must be of their whole bodies , or of some part or parts of them onely , if some part or parts onely , then of those parts which we commonly keep uncovered as the face and hands , or else let it be assigned what other parts , but it was not the face or hands onely that were thus washt , for this again were a very vain thing to go down into the water for , as it s said of Philip and the Eunuch that they both did : frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora : t is meer foolishnesse to fetch a beetle and wedges to cleave a stick no bigger then ones finger , & little wisdome to run so much as ore shoes meerly to wash ones face or hands , which may be done as well at the waters side , as in it : if their whole bodies were thus washt , then it must be done either with their clothes on , and that is impossible , for though the whole body may be baptized i. e. washt by dipping or swilling it under the water as conveniently , and more comely with clothes on then otherwise , yet they surely have little else to do , and find themselves more work then becomes wise men , that go about to wash persons by rubbing water upon them through their garments , besides while you can totally wash one in that form of washing , I le wash by dipping at least no less then a score : or else exutis vestimentis i. e. stark naked , & that were more immodest then naked dipping . Fourthly , nor was it done by dipping some part of their bodies onely into water , but the whole , for to dip a person but in part , besides that it is not properly to dipp that person , but onely to dip some part of him , is to the dispenser , and the disciple too , tanta mount in difficulty if not surmounting a total dipping , yea to dip the whole body of a man at years ( for we speak not now of infants , that may at ease be dandled any way in ones armes ) is easie enough to the dispenser , when the disciple is once gon down with him into the water , and yields himself to be laid along in it by his hands , but conceive what part of a man you will , except the hands which you will not for shame say is the onely member to be baptized , and I le say hic labor , hoc opus est , t is a matter of no smal difficulty to dip meerly that : for if you will dip a mans head and shoulders onely in the River , you must poise and posture him Archipodialiter with his heeles upwards , if his feet and legs onely , you must first at least lift him up wholly , and carry him in clearly from the ground , which kind of dipping men in Rivers , as t is more toilsome surely then that totall dipping , which Iohn and Philip used , so let him take it , who is minded to make himself more moil then needs , for our parts we have a way wherein to do it with more ease , and to do it more sufficiently too , then by the halves . As for the other of the Dr. quibbles viz. First ( for the rest of them are elsewhere removed ) That the Israelites were baptized in a cloud , not dipt into it . Resp. nor sprinkled neither , but onely metaphorically baptized . Secondly , that Zebedees children were baptized with blood , the baptism wherwith Christ was baptized , and yet neither he nor they dipt into blood . Resp. Both he and they were baptized with sufferings , shame and contempt , and affliction , and all misery in the world for truths sake i. e. penè , yea penitus submersi , sunk ore head and ears in deep waters of the proud , going over their souls , and overwhelmed with the waves of the wickeds wrath , prevailing against them for a time , and that 's the bloody baptism he speaks of , not litterally the sprinkling of their own blood upon them , when they were slain , for Iohn suffered otherwise , but his blood was not shed at all . Thirdly , that the fathers speak of the baptism of tears but no dipping in that baptism . Resp. we mind not what your fathers spake hyperbolically , but what our fathers spake in truth , and plain sobernesse in this case . It was therefore a totall dipping certainly , which was then used , and by which Christ and the Eunuch were baptized in the water , and not any other kind of washing there , as the Dr. dreames , which is also evinced yet a little further by this , forasmuch as though the Eunuch was gone down with Philip into the water , yet he was not said to be baptized till Philip had dipt him therein : for if the wetting or washing , or dipping of some parts of the body onely might passe for sufficient baptism , then as soon as Philip had conducted the Eunuch into the River , he might have led him out again as a person sufficiently baptized , for he was washt already and dipt so far as to the Ancles , but the businesse was not done though the Eunuch was in the River , till he had baptized him thereinto . Rantist . Give me leave though to put in one thing by the way , and that is this , t is a question to me for all your confidence , whether Philip and the Eunuch went down into the water at all or no , the praeposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whereupon you ground it , doth not alwayes signifie into , but sometimes unto , and why may it not in this place be thus read viz. they went down both of them unto the water , both Philip and the Eunuch ? Baptist. No it cannot , for they came unto the water before , and so it s expressely spoken in the text ver . 36. where its said , and as they went on their way , they came unto a certain water , ( t is probable some foord or brook that they were to pass through ) and the Eunuch said see here is water , what hindereth me to be baptized , if they were come unto the water already ( as the word saies they were ) they could not be said properly ( except they had gone from it first ) to come unto the water again after they were come unto it , therefore the next motion was into it without question : yea the very Dr. himself , with whom we now deal , confesses no lesse then this , that Christ and the Eunuch were baptized in the river , and that such baptism of men hath been used , if then they were used to be baptized in the water , they went down first certainly into it , not unto it onely , for then they could not be well said to be baptized in it . As therefore to that other quirk whereby the Dr. seeks to evade all baptizing in water , and pleads for a baptism with water onely viz. that the praeposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which commonly is put after the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , signifies not in but with and is so translated ) and this is one of Mr. Cooks Crotchets too p. 12. of his book ) the Drs own grant quite cashieres it , while he saies that Iohn and Philip baptized Christ and the Eunuch in the river , for though I deny not but that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be , and sometimes is truly enough translated with especially in Rev. 19.21 . the place quoted by Dr. Featley and Mr. Cook , who both strive to enervate A. Rs argumentation from that praeposition , which is used Mat. 3.7 . Mark. 1.8 . where Iohn saies I indeed baptize you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. in water ( saith A. R. ) with water ( saith the Dr. and Mr. Cook ) yet if it be granted ( as it is by the D● ) to be in the River , then it cannot be denied but that it is in water however , and so the Dr. thwarts himself in that . Neither is there such inconsistency in my conceit between baptizing in water , and with water , as that either this or that should be held exclusively of the other , for they rather necessarily stand both together , yet so as that the advantage stands still by it on our hand , for whoever baptizes at all , yea he that baptizeth in water baptizeth with water also , and likewise he that will baptize wi●h water must necessarily baptize in water too , i. e. obruere overwhelm or plunge persons over head and ears therein , or else if we go to the truest signification of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in reality he baptizeth not at all . Let it be rendred therefore baptize in water , or with water which you will , it s all of a price to us , sith the one of these includes the other . And whereas the Dr. and Mr. Cook both make such a matter of the words that follow viz. i He shall baptize you with the holy spirit and fire , the Dr. pleading that the Apostles were baptized with fire not dipt in to it , and Mr. Cook that one may as well say Christ baptized in the holy spirit , and in fire , or put the party into the holy spirit and fire , as that John baptized in water , the praeposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being there also . I answer , we may as well say so indeed , for t is a truth as well as the other , they that are baptized with the spirit and fire , are also baptized in the spirit and in fire , and put into the spirit , and into fire i. e. wholly into a holy flame of zeal for God , and the Gospel , for that 's the baptism with fire that is there mainly spoken of , and not as the Dr. divines that outward appearance of cloven tongues onely , like as of fire that sat upon them in the assembly Act. 2.3 . for that was but a special , accidentall , visible token of Gods presence extraordinarily appearing among those particular persons at that time , baptizing them inwardly with the other , which is no more necessarily incident to all persons that are baptized with fire , and to all those unto whom that baptism with fire is promised , which are indeed all the Saints , that repent and believe the Gospel , as well as those that were met on the day of Pentecost , ( as we see Mat. 3.11 . where Iohn promises the baptism with fire , as well as with the spirit to all penitents , most of which never had that vision of cloven tongues ) which appearance of cloven tongues I say , is no more incident to , nor to be expected by all that are baptized with fire , then the appearance of the spirit descending in shape of a dove , and lighting upon Christ at the time , when he was baptized or filled with the spirit , which was much vvhat such another special , casual and visible token of Gods presence as the other , is incident to , or to be expected by all those that are baptized i. e. filled vvith the holy spirit : and albeit this phrase [ in the spirit ] may seem to sound so non-sensically to Mr , Cook out of our mouthes , that are a people of no account vvith him , yet I hope it shall seem congruous enough out of the mouth of the holy spirit , and the holy Apostles themselves , for they use it more then once , or twice in the holy Scripture , and me thinks he should not be , unlesse he be willingly , ignorant of it ; for not onely doth Iohn say twice viz. Rev. 1.10.17.3 . of himself in this manner viz. I was in the spirit , and he carried me away in the spirit , but likewise Paul saies plainly to all Saints Gal. 5.6 . walk in the spirit , and to himself and all Saints , v. 25. if we live in the spirit let us walk in the spirit , and testifies of the Saints also Rom. 8.9 . that they are not [ in ] the flesh , but [ in ] the spirit , if the spirit of God dwell in them , where by [ in the flesh ] he means all over , all together , or totally fleshly , drenched , drowned in flesh , plunged over head and ears as it were , in flesh , filth , and corruption as the world is that lies in wickednesse , so that there is nothing but flesh to be seen upon them , as he is that is buried in water , whom that Element hath wholly covered , and by being [ in the spirit ] no other then that which is the baptism with the spirit , i. e. being indued with the spirit , wholly sanctified in every part though but in part , with the spirit , all over seasoned , washed ▪ clensed by the spirit , for thus he is , that is baptized with the spirit , i. e. he is in the spirit as well as the spirit in him . More then this yet , though the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] may be rendred [ with ] as well as [ in ] for t is both [ with ] and [ in ] water that we are baptized , when we are baptized as we should be , when it stands between 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so that we may read it as well I baptize you [ with ] water as [ in ] water , yet can it not be very properly read so when it stands between 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and yet so it stands Mat. 3.6 . Mark 1.5 . for though I can bear with him that saies thus , viz. Iohn baptized [ with ] water , yet he that shall say that Iohn baptized [ with ] Iordan or with the River Iordan , as if all Iordan was used to every ones baptizing rather then [ in ] Iordan and [ in ] the River Iordan , I shall think that his braines crow out nonsense which is intolerable . Whereupon as to the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] all Translators do there English it [ in ] and not [ with ] and though I can read it [ with ] together with them , as well as [ in ] when the Greek is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , yet by their leave , and with non-submission to their judgements ( as no way sleighting them ) further then I find them not fallible , and saving both the Dr. and Mr. Cooks conceits to the contrary , I see no reason sith one of those places is a relation of the same thing with the other , but that as Mat. 3.6 . Mat. 5.1 . we must read thus , viz. they were baptized of Iohn [ in ] the River Iordan , so we may without such uncouth utterance of the thing , as seems to them to be in it , yea and as agreeably to Scripture language as otherwise read Mat 3.11 . Mar. 1.8 . thus viz. I indeed baptize you [ in ] water , but he shall baptize you [ in ] the holy spirit and fire . But more then all this yet , though the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] that is used in those places , may without any advantage to you be read with as well as in yet the praeposition [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] which is used Mark 1.9 . where it is said that Christ was baptized of Iohn into Iordan , that cannot possibly be rendred with which yet in the intent of the spirit is doubtlesse the same in sense and signification as [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is in the other , and more significant to our purpose , for howbeit , it be rendred in Iordan as [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is elsewhere , yet into Iordan were more agreeable to that rendition of it , that is usuall in other places : but so to read it , viz. he was baptized of Iohn into Iordan doth render your sprinkling a plain piece of Nonsence , for it cannot be sensibly said , he was sprinkled into Iordan , therefore you will in no wise give way to that : the Doctor indeed leaves A. R. and bids him farewell in that point , as if he were affraid to have any noise of it , and saies not a word against it ; but Mr. Cook and Mr Blake , who saves himself a labor , & uses not a jo● more then what Mr. Cook furnishes him with to that purpose , do both sternuously stand against the reading of the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] Mark 1.9 . by into Mr. Cook p. 14. and Mr , Blake p. 4. of their respective returns to A. R. and Mr. Blackwood , who both make mention of that passage ; yet the utmost that both these repugnants bring against it is of no more force then a very feather , for all that they say is this , that the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] doth often signify in or by and not into as Mat. 2.23 . Mark 4.13 . Mat. 5.45 . Mat 10.9.11.13.33 . he dwelt in Nazareth , in Capernaum ; neither by Ierusalem &c. neither possesse mony in your purses ; in the name of a prophet , she hid it in three measures of flour , in all which places the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is Englished in or by . Resp. As if because this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath other significations besides into , but specially the signification in in other places , where very common sense , and reason shew that it cannot there bear be Englished into , but only in , therefore it cannot by any meanes bear to be Englished into in this place where it s as good sense , save that it shewes sprinkling to be nonsense , yea and more suitable to a genuine , and candid construction of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and undoubtedly to the spirits meaning in the place to English it into then to English it in , for though he was rantized [ Anglice ] sprinkled into Iordan be ridiculous , yet he was baptized [ Anglice ] dipped into Iordan is as proper to the full , as he was baptized in Jordan , yet they blush not to say , for so saies Mr. Cook , and there lies the very force of his reason , viz. that because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies in , though he knowes i● signifies into also , therefore it were absurd to render it into here at all ; Mr. Blake also makes this his sole ground whereupon to say that the Scripture is against our Englishing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 here by into , because elsewhere , viz. in the places they alledge , where the sense will not bear it to be read [ into ] its rendred all along in or by ; I cannot but believe that those two gentlemen are Judicious enough to discern their own halting , and meer shuffling in this case , for if I should argue upon them , as to but one of those places , where they will have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be Englished in on this wise viz the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 very frequently , and most properly signifies into as namely Luke 5.3 . he entered into one of the ships Rom. 11.24 . thou art grafted into a good olive tree Ephes. 4.9 . He descended into the lower parts of the Earth , Mat. 6.6 . Enter into thy Closet , Mat. 6.13 . lead us not into temptation Acts 8.38 . they went down both into the water both Philip and the Eunuch , therefore it is absurd for you to render it in in Mat. 4.13 . and the Scripture is against that interpretation , if I say I should urge so upon them ( and so they argue to us ward ) they would quickly spye out my nakednesse in that consequence ; but O how abominable blind are they at home ? Neverthelesse I tell you plainly that though right is right , and to be stood for to a tittle , and that if the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mark 1.9 . were rightly rendred , it should be rather into then in yet the service the word in will do us in that place , is little lesse then what the word into will do , so that we need not stand contending for the sense of into having enough from your own professed sence of in without the other , wherefore waving out right in that at present , we w●ll freely fall in with you as the sense is in , yea we grant that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies in and that in many more places , then those alledged by your selves , as namely to add to your store Act. 2.27 . thou wilt not leave my soul in hell Luke 11.7 my children are in bed with me . But is it so that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies in and is so rendred in that place , and many more ? then I am sure that here it doth not signify out of for he that is in a City ( put a Nazareth or Capernaum ) is at that time when said to be in it , not out of it nor only by it but in it , money that is truly denominated to be in a purse is at that time truly in it and neither out of it nor beside it , leaven hid in three pecks of Meal , whilest hid is in it , overwhelmed , covered with it , and not on the outside with a few dusts of meal sprinkled on it only ; He that is in hell i. e. the grave , in bed while he is truly said to be in it , he is in it , and not at it only , and so he that is truly denominated to be baptized in water or in Iordan in the River Jordan is not out of it , not at it , not by the side of it , not neer it only as you fancy them to have bin that were baptized of John in Jordan . He I say who is said truly ( and the spirit lies not ) to be baptized in Jordan must needs be , whilest he was in the Act of this baptizing , not out of Jordan , nor just by it only , but truely in it , and that 's more then he needs to be in order to baptism , if he can be baptized as well standing by it only in that fiddling way of sprinkling . Whereas therefore you contend against baptizing , i. e. dipping into Jordan into Rivers , and plead for a baptizing in water onely by the Example of Christs baptism which you yield in Jordan , but not into it , I marvel what wide difference you see in these two , that you should grant it to be in , and yet be affraid to grant it to be into Jordan : you cry out not into , not into by any meanes , for that is no way consistent indeed with your dry washing , but by all meanes let it be in only , viz. in water , in the River , in Jordan : let it be in water then as much as you will for me , so it be [ in ] water that you are baptized , and not out of it , and not well nigh without it , as most of y●ur christened Creatures are , whilest little or none , in comparison of such a measure of water as must necessarily be in order to a true baptizing of them , doth once come neer them . Fourthly , it appears plainly that the way of baptizing in the primitive times was by totall dipping , not sprinkling , in that they chose to do it in places , where there was much water , or many waters , which they need not have done , if sprinkling might then have past for baptizing , Iohn baptized in the River Iordan , and was baptizing Iohn 3.23 . in Enon neer to Salem , and the reason is rendred thus , viz. because there was much water there , and there they came and were baptized ; and as the reason why they went to be baptized there , was because there was much water , or many waters ( for the word is Plurall ) so surely the reason , why they went to such a place was that they might be baptized i. e. dipped in water , as they could not conveniently be elsewhere , at least not every were , for where might they not easily have bin sprinkled ? and upon this account no doubt , as Iohn chose to preach about those River sides , viz. Iordan and Enon , that their converts might conveniently be baptized , Paul and Silas being at Philippi , and abiding in that City certain daies to preach the Gospel , on the Sabbath , the most likely time of vacuity from other occasions for people to assemble to hear in , went out of the City by a Rivers side , and there sate down , and spake to as many as resorted thither to hear , viz. certain women , ( for men for the most part were more shy of the Gospel as now they are ) that they might conveniently dispense baptism to them , as should imbrace the Gospel , as a certain woman named Lidya , and her houshold did , and thereupon out of hand were all baptized , Act. 16.12 . &c. Rantist . Their baptizing where there was much water for this reason , that they might do the work so effectually to every person as by dipping , is a frivolous conjecture , as if there could be no reason , why Iohn should chose a place , where many waters were but that he might dipp the whole man in the water , the cause rather seems to be this , because waters in those hot Countryes were rare , and in some places could not be had in a great distance , and because there came multitudes to be baptized , for the dispatching of which they might well seek places of many waters , where John and his disciples might at once be imployed , one water of depth sufficient would have served for the use of dipping , for dipping sake he might have sought for a deep , but needed not to seek many waters . Baptist. So saies Mr. Cook indeed to A. R. p. 15.16 . and Mr. Blake to Mr. Blackwood , who jumps as just with Mr. Cook , as one that never saw nor heard of any sprinkled , can likely do with another , who maintaines sprinkling to be the onely way of baptizing , but both weary themselves to little purpose . The question is not whether Iohn had no reason ▪ but that which we alleadge of baptizing , where there was much water , but whether that which we alleadge viz. that he might dipt the whole man be not one reason : as for that you bring viz. because there came multitudes to be baptized , and that Iohn and his disciples might at once be imployed in baptizing , that can be no reason at all of their running into rivers to baptize , nor of their dispensing in Iordan , In Enon , and in places of much water , or in many waters , and therefore ( for ought I see yet ) ours is the onely one : for verily were it not for the sake of totall dipping , they need not for the multitudes sake that came to be baptized , nor yet for the multitudes sake who did baptize ( I mean Iohn and his disciples , who no doubt were all at once imployed in that work ) have sought for a place of much water , or many waters : for as one bason of water may well serve to sprinkle a whole parish of many persons , or if not , it s easily replenisht , so many persons imployed at once in sprinkling might easily put their hands into one , or if not , might they not easily have it in many basons ? what a poor shift is this ? Rivers , Iordan , Enon , many waters , and why ? because many were baptizing , and many to be baptized ; one water of depth ( quoth Mr. Blake ) would have served for the use of dipping : for dippings sake they he might have sought for a deep , but needed not seek many waters : but would not one water of no great depth , as a bason , yea of no depth at all , as a cock or conduit have served for the use of sprinkling 1000s ? for sprinkling sake , even of multitudes , they need have sought for neither deep waters , nor for many waters neither ▪ or if they must needs have had as many waters as they had dispensers , they might quickly have made many waters out of one , by filling out of one well , one cock , one bucket , many basons . Mr. Blake rejoices in Mr. Blackwoods rendring the word plurally viz. many waters , which the translators render in the singular viz. much water , supposing he hath such a prize in our yielding to read it so , as takes off the whole force of our reason : but I hope he understands himself better then to believe , that by many waters is meant several waters , waters in several sourses or channels divisim , Sigillatim , seor sim sumptae , divided and a part one from another , for by many waters is meant a confluence of much water together , many waters meeting in one , flowing , running contiguously , and contained jointly in one sourse , river , channel ; otherwise in one River Enon it could not be said there were many waters , for t was but one floud , as Iordan was , so that by Enon , or many waters he must needs understand much water , a sufficiency , a competency of water for the occasion in hand , enough to baptize i. e. to dip , and overwhelm in , and not several waters , for several persons at once to sprinkle in , for this might be done easily without much water , and if not without several waters , yet at least in several basons of water onely , but the other could not : many shallowes were sufficient for many to Rantize , and be Rantized in , but they sought some one deep , one Iordan , one Enon of depth sufficient , those being onely the most fit to baptize i. e. to dip in . Fiftly , it appears plain that the Saints in the primitive time were totally dipped , or overwhelmed in water by that denomination that is given to them after baptism Rom. 6.3.4 . where the Romans are said to be baptized into the death of Christ , and buried with him in baptism into death : also Col. 2.12 . when the Collosians are said to be buried with Christ in baptism , and therein also raised with him , through the faith of the operation of God , who raised him from the dead : Now we all know that he that is buried , is totally put under that element wherein he is buried , whatever it be , whether water or earth , and all over covered with it , not sprinkled with a little onely . Non quaelibet aquae guttula , nec quaelibet terrae globula : t is not a little parcel of water , sprinkled on a man can denominate him baptized , as t is not a little clod of earth crumbled on a man can denominate him to be buried , for baptism is a burial , an ordinance , and visible sign , wherein every believer is to be visibly buried , and every one that 's truly buried , is totally covered , subjected to that element that buries him , and for a time at least translated by it out of sight . Rantist . Buried ? yea , but mistically and spiritually , invisibly and inwardly onely , in respect of the thing signified in baptism , and effected in them viz. death to sinne by vertue of Christs death , in which respect also they are said to be raised i. e. to newness of life by the power of Christs resurrection ; but this is not meant nor spoken with reference to the visible sign it self , as if there were to be a burying of the body under water , and bringing that up again : It s the inward grace , and not the outward sign it self , in respect of which baptism is called a burial , and a resurrection , the things signified being our dying to sin , and rising to righteousnesse , even as Christ did die and rose again . Baptist. I am glad to hear you grant so much truth as you do at the present , and I hope you will see the whole out in the end , for all will not own so much , some , perceiving no doubt what a foundation it laies for us to build firmly upon all that in this point we contend for , do rather choose to deny this truth that baptism signifies , or at least that it resembles a death , and resurrection , then by owning it , be forc't to own the true way of baptism indeed . Your Dr. Featley little better then denies both at first p. 70. saying thus , As for the representation of the death and resurrection , that is not properly the inward grace signified by baptism , but the washing the soul in the laver of regeneration , and clensing us from our sinnes , but I can little lesse then admire that he above all men , who quotes the Rubrick with little lesse authority , then he doth the bible , and hath no question little lesse then an 100 times in his daies taught little children the catachism contained therein , should quite forget to learn it himself , for there it s set down plainly , that the inward and spritual grace signified by the outward sign of baptism , is death unto sinne , and a new birth unto Righteousnesse ; and besides he knew that in true regeneration , there is a death and resurrection . Rantist . However in the manner of baptism as it is administred in the Church of England there is a resemblance of a death and resurrection , for though the child be not alwayes dipt in water , as the rubrick prescribeth , save onely in case of necessitie , which would be dangerous in cold weather , especiall if the child be weak and sickly , yet the minister dippeth his hand in the water , and plucketh it out again when he baptizeth the infant : and these are the very words of Dr. Featly next following the words you quoted , and therefore whether he be right in those or no , I am sure he is in these , for there is a resemblance of death and resurrection in our baptism . Baptist. Whether the D●s mind misgave him or no after he had asserted that a death and resurrection is not the thing signified , and that which is to be resembled in baptism I know not , but me thinks he speaks as if he feared whether that would hold water or no , and therefore least it should be found to leak , in the very next words , which you now speak in , as one supposing it the safest way to grant tha● there ought to be a resemblance of a death and resurrection in right baptism , he rather goes another way to work viz. to patch up a proof of it that there is a resemblace of a death and resurrection in that administration of it , that is used in England ; but t is in such a way me thinks as may well make all the seers ashamed , and Divines confounded , specially you that so dote on that Doctor as to give up your selves to be so blindly discipled by him ( as you do and would have others to do so also ) that ever such a piece of doctrine should be delivered ( and yet behold you justifie and side with it ) by Englands Doctors in Divinity . It seems then you dare nor quite gainsay , but that a representation of a death and resurrection is fit to be made in the manner of baptizing , and that the Church of England hath prescribed that it shall be done in such a manner , as may be tanta mount thereto viz. by dipping , unlesse of necessity through the infants sicknesse it be done otherwise ( yet notwithstanding that prescription of the Church , which of you priests did ever do any other then sprinkle the healthiest infants ? ) but because the subject of your baptism in England , being an infant , is too tender at all times to be dipt or buried in water ( where not that your false subject of necessity ingages you to forgo the true way of baptizing , which your selves prescribe unlesse necessity forbid it ) because I say the child cannot conveniently be buried with Christ in baptism into death in his own person , therefore ( ecce signum ) this visible death , burial , and resurrection with Christ must be all transacted for him per alium i. e. by the ministers hand , that is dipped into water , and brought out again as it were instead of the child . And this is even very suitable to all the rest , for all the rest of your service in the point of baptism is done by representatives , as little as it represents what is mainly to be represented by it , and one part would mock the other if this should not be done so too : t is true all is done in the childs name , and in the childs stead , but nothing done that of right ought to be done either by , or to the child himself : The infant indeed is askt , dost thou believe in God ? dost thou forsake the divel ? wilt thou be baptized & c ? but others must answer , and promise , and professe , assent to , and vow all these for him , others mouthes must speak his mind , and there 's the profession : again he is spoken to by the minister saying to him , I baptize thee i e. dip or bury thee with Christ in baptism into death , for so t is in a little plainer English , and true sense and intent of the service , but alas it s nothing but the ministers hand that is dipt , buried , raised again with the drips that hang upon which the infant is onely rantized , and there is the resemblance of the death , burial and resurrection : but I trust Sirs you will understand at last that when Paul saies to the Romans and Colossians that they were buried and raised in baptism , he doth not mean that the dispensers hands , but that their bodies were put under water , and brought out again , in respect of which they were said to be buried into death , and are raised again , i. e. not spiritually onely , and really in respect of the soules dying to sinne , and living to righteousnesse , but outwardly , visibly , bodily in water also , and this significatively , and representatively of the other , and this is my third argument for total dipping . Rantist . Significatively I grant if you will , but not representatively , I know no necessity that in every sign there is to be a resemblance of the thing signified thereby . Baptist. If that be granted you will not easily withstand the other , yet that is granted by the most , and must be granted by all whether they will or no : as for Mr. Cook and Mr. Blake themselves they neither of them seem to me to deny , but that such a thing as a death and resurrection are signified in baptism , yea Mr. Cook affirms it , yea , who questions saith he p. 19. but our justification and sanctification , or remission of sins , together with mortification and vivification are signified by baptism ? and he saies right , for none can , and I think none doth deny it , but Dr. Featley , of all Divines that I know of : yea Calvin and Zanchee both assert it in their several expositions upon these very places Rom. 6.4 . Coloss. 2.12 . This participation in death saith Calvin , is principally to be respected in baptism , for not onely purgation , but also mortification , and the dying of the old man is proposed there , &c. And of spiritual circumcision Paul maketh two parts saith Zanchee , the first he calleth buriall with Christ , the other resurrection with him , and of both these he maketh baptism the sign &c. Neverthelesse our above named opposers will at no hand give way , that there should be any representation or resemblance made in baptism of these two things , which are the prime significations of it , by putting under water and plucking out again : yea they seem to chide with their several Antagonists . A. R. and C. B. for offering once to urge that the outward sign ought to hold analogy or proportion with the thing signified in that particular ; A proportion between the sign , and these things signified , viz. a death , burial and resurrection Mr. Blake grants there is in our way of baptism by dipping , but that there need be , or should be so by institution , this he heares not of with patience , no , nor Mr. Cook neither . But if it please you to have patience with me so long , sith those two are the maine men that ( beside the Doctor whose repulse is not worth a rush ) so mainly oppose our Argument from Rom. 6. Col. 2. I le take the paines to transcribe their several replies , and then see what strength there is in all that they say to the contrary . Mr. Cooks defence is as followes . What you go about to gather saith he from Col. 2.12 . Rom. 6.4 . I know not , unlesse this , that as Christ was buried , abode in the grave three daies , and then rose again , So your party baptized must be put under the water , abide there some considerable time , and then come up again , for if you presse a similitude of Christs death in going down into the water , and of his resurrection , or comming up out of the water , why not also of his abode three daies by abiding three daies or some considerable time , under the water ? which will make bad work , neither can any such thing be gathered from those Scriptures . I would demand two Questions ( saith he ) 1. How you gather from these places a dipping of the whole man over head and under water ? and that a similitude of Christs death , burial and rising again , to be represented by dipping in water , is signified here ? these Scriptures shew indeed that the end of our baptism is to seal our communion with him in his death , and resurrection , by which we are dead to sin , and raised again to holinesse : but if you will presse hence a resurrection by our descending into , abiding in , and comming up out of the water , take heed least you be one of those , which adde to Gods word , least he reprove you as a lyar , and adde unto you the plagues written in his book , for I know no word of God , wherein this representation is necessarily implyed , much lesse expressed . Besides if you urge death and resurrection to be resembled by descension into , and ascension out of the water you must urge also burial , which is principally there expressed by the biding of the whole man , head and all under for a time , answerable to Christs three daies burial , which cannot be without danger , yea certainty of drowning . 2. If it should be granted that a representation and resemblance of Christs death , burial and resurrection is set before us in baptism , and so of our death to sin , and rising again to holinesse , yet I demand why this may not as well be by infusion of water as dipping ? can you give me an example of so many killed and buried by immersion , or dipping into the water , as I can give of them that have been put to death and buried by infusion of water ? I am sure a whole world of men and other creatures ( those few that were in the Ark only excepted ) were buried in the universal deluge at once by infusion , not by dipping : so that infusion or sprinkling may as well clearly signifie death and burial as dipping : and to the preservation of Noah and those that were with him in the Ark ( on which waters were poured ) from drowning : the Apostle compares baptism as its Anti-type . Thus far Mr. Cook p. 16 , 17. And then again p. 19 , 20.21 . he undertakes further viz. to argue back again upon us at large , and to prove , that if there must needs be a resemblance and representation in baptism of the things , that are signified therby , then it may be as well , nay must be rather by washing , pouring sprinkling then by dipping and putting under the water , sprinkling and infusion being as ( if not more ) agreeable to the nature and insti●ution of baptism then dipping or immersion , for as the word used , i. e. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies washing , so the thing represented , signifyed and sealed ( saith he in the wonted implicit phrase ) in baptism is a washing 1 Cor. 6.11 . ye are washed . &c. the washing of Regeneration 2 Tit. 5. having your bodies washed with pure water Heb. 10.22 . t is a cleansing and purging 1 John. 1.7 . blood of Christ clenseth us from all our sinnes Heb. 9.14 . blood of Christ shall purge your conscience , which things viz. washing , clensing , purging are done as well by infusion of water saith he as dipping , and though it were granted saith he , that in those hot countreys they commonly washt by going down into the water , and being dipt therein , that will no more inforce a necessity on us of observing the same in baptism now , then the examples of Christ , and the Apostles gesture in the supper ties us to the same which was leaning and partly lying , but it may be objected ( saith he ) that sprinkling a little water doth not so fitly represent the washing of sins away , as dipping or plunging , sith here the whole body is washed , there the face or head onely : I answer first saith he , the Scripture no where requires washing of the whole body in baptism . Secondly , with as good reason one may plead thus , that t is most convenient that at the supper every communicant should receive his belly full of bread and wine , and take as long as his stomack and head will hold , to signifie the full refreshment of the soul with the body and blood of Christ ; but who would endure saith he , such reasoning ? These outward elements of water , bread and wine are for spiritual use , and to signifie spiritual things , so that if there be the truth of things , the quantity is not to be respected further then is sufficient for its end , namely to represent the spiritual grace , and that it be neither so little as not clearly to represent it , nor so much as to take off the heart from the spiritual to the corporal thing : yea the spirituall grace and visible act of God upon the soul signified , and represented by the outward act of baptism viz. The application of Christs blood , and donation of the spirit is exprest in Scripture by the name of powring , sprinkling , and that probably , if not certainly , with allusion to the administration of baptism Isa. 44.3 . Joel 2.28 . I will powre out my spirit upon all flesh , Ezech. 36.26 . I le sprinkle clean water upon you , and you shall be clean , this clean water questionlesse is the blood and spirit of Christ represented in the water of baptism , so in the new testament Act. 2. Heb. 10.22 . 1 Pet. 1.2 . Heb. 9.13 . and 14. verses compared together and Heb. 12.24 . Now ( saith he ) let any one without prejudice consider these Scriptures , whether at least some of them speak not in allusion to baptism , and whether baptism be not a lively resemblance and representation of the things here spoken of , and withall let him consider whether the thing exhibited in this sacrament , be ever so fully set forth by dipping , and then I leave him to judge whether sprinkling be not as , if not more , agreeable to the nature of this sacrament as dipping or immersion . In this manner Mr. Cook delivers his conceptions in his to A. R. we will onely see what his parallel saith , who argues as Mr. Cook doth , epitomizing as it were the labors of Mr. Cook , unto his own turn against C. B. wee l first fully receive his charge also , and then fully return what in right reason remaines to be returned to both . If by baptism saith he we are planted into the likenesse of Christs death , and also made partakes of his resurrection , will it follow therefore that there must be some ceremony in the application of the water to resemble it ? if you may take this liberty of argument , give me leave saith he to attempt the like , and with as good reason to conclude , that baptism must be no other then sprinkling , that there may be proportion between it , and that sprinkling of blood and water , that did foreshadow it : or baptism must be onely by powring of water , there being a lively representation between that and pouring out of the holy spirit ; or that baptism must be by washing with water only , there being a lively proportion between that , and washing away of sins by Christs blood ; you see ( saith he ) what you will gain from these disputes from Analogy and proportion . To this purpose Mr. Blake p. 6. as if he had stopt all our mouthes , by this at once for ever , yet I hope he shall see that he hath left us room enough yet to breath in , and by which to breath out some reply . Now to give the more plain , quick , cleer , and condig● check to these two palpable controulers , not to say contramplers of the present precious and apparent Truth , reducing Mr. Blakes sharp and snap-short Syllogisticalls unto that long circumferaneous collation of Mr. Cook , out of which ( for ouhgt I find ) he fetch it , and in the answering of which Mr. Blake is answered as well as he , I most earnestly intreat both those two , and all other opposites to that one , and onely true way of baptizing we plead for , viz. of total dipping , seriously to advise what is granted and d●nyed , what is asserted and argued , and by what weak Mediums , and on what crazy grounds those things are , that are in contradiction to us denyed , asserted or argued by them or either of them . They are indeed Copartners so that both seem to side with what either saith , which yet I marvel at the more , because Mr. Blake who quotes but contradicts not Mr. Cook in it at all , ●o far as I find occasion to gues●e by some passages in the first and fourth pages of his Reply to Mr. Blackwood , is against sprinkling , so far at least as to judge the way of dipping Mr. Blackwood pleads for , which himself professes he hath been an eye witnesse of , and known to be the constant practise of many Ministers for many yeares together , when yet he never saw nor heard of any sprinkled , to be more suitable to the word then sprinkling , but Mr. Cook is so earnest for the way of sprinkling , as the most excellent and pertinent way , that if we may judge his meaning by his words , he thinks dipping doth set forth the things signified but by the halves in comparison of it ; why else doth he say sprinkling is as ( if not more ) agreeable to the nature of the Sacrament as dipping . Mr. Blake grants not a necessity , but an expediency at least in dipping more then sprinkling , yet is silent towards them , & sides exceedingly against us with them , that are both against us and himself too for sprinkling as more evpedient then dipping : what reason he hath so to do is worth his earnest examination , he grants that in baptism we are planted into the likenesse of Christs death , and made partakers of his resurrection , he grants , and Mr. Cook cannot deny it , that de facto there is a proportion and similitude of Christs death , burial and resurrection , by which we are dead to sin and rise to righteousnesse , held in the way of dipping , and in that respect I am perswaded judges dipping in his conscience more expedient then that of sprinkling , yet will no more then Mr. Cook himself allow , but denyes us the liberty to argue that by duty , necessity or institution , there ought to be de jure any ceremony to resemble it : what little reason he hath so to do will appear easily , and without further proof to himself , who grants so far , if he consider that t is duty , and necessary for us necessitate praecepti ) by command , commission and institution from Christ , to do that ever that is most commodious and expedient ; and whether it be not most expedient , and more then expedient too , to resemble the death and resurrection of Christ , and ours with him in baptism , and whether dipping be not more expedient then sprinkling , or any other way , and more pertinent to represent all those things , which are signifyed and are to be resembled in the ordinance of baptism , will fall under our examination by and by , when we come to consider what the things are that are specially signified in baptism , and how requisite it is that they be also represented in it . In the mean time let it be considered what is granted and denyed by Mr. Cook of whom I may truly say so little do I ken what the man means by it , that he both grants us full as much as we desire , and yet denies us too no lesse then every thing we would have ; denying indeed , to the contradiction of himself , the very self same things that yet he grants : the truth is I know not what to call it but confusion , nor find I a way how to reconcile some parts of it to the rest , so full of variance it is within it self : one while he grants , asserts and argues the same in general that we do , viz. that the spiritual grace , or thing signified in baptism is , and ought to be represented , or resembled in that outward sign , and that respect is to be had that the outward element of water , which is to signifie the spiritual thing be used , as to the quantity of it , though not further , yet so far as may be sufficient to its end , which end ( saith he mark his phrase in this passage p. 20 ) is to represent ( which is as much as to say to resemble , or lively to set out to our eyes ) that spiritual grace or thing signifyed , and that it be not so little as not clearly to represent it ; yea and which is more , and as much as we say our selves he grants , and asserts it for undoubted truth that the spiritual grace , or thing signified by baptism is ( among other things ) a death and resurrection : for who questions ( saith he p. 19. ) but our justification and sanctification or remission of sins together with mortification and vivification ( which is as much as to say those two parts of our sancti●ication , viz. our spiritual death and resurrection ) are sealed and signifyed by baptism , i. e. are the spiritual grace of it . Also p. 17. these Scriptures viz. Rom. 6. Coll. 2. shew indeed ( saith he ) that the end of our baptism is to seal our communion with Christ in his death and resurrection , by which vve are dead to sin and raised again to holinesse . And in all this he sides so sourdly with us , and jumps so just into our opinion , that if we did hire him to speak our mind for us to the world , we could scarce desire him to propound it more plainly than he doth , bating only his stiling baptism by the name of a seal , instead of which I wish he would call it only a sign : yea he gives us all that in this case we contend for from those Scriptures , viz. that the spiritual grace or thing signified in baptism is to be therein also represented , and that our death and resurrection by vertue of Christs is that thing that is signified there , or that spiritual grace the signifying of which other things not excluded ) is the chief end of our baptism . Otherwhiles again he gain saies this grant , speaking of it suppositively onely as page 17. If ( saith he ) it should be granted that a representation and resemblance of Christs death , burial and resurrection is set before us in baptism , and so of our death to sin and rising again to holinesse , As if he were never the man that had granted , as you see he doth , or ever would grant , or give way to such a thing , and not only so , but as if he were loath , and half angry that any man should speak the truth but himself , or the same truth with himself , he charms A. R. and little lesse then charges him as a lyar , and in him consequently us all , for saying no other then what ( if you put his sayings together ) he saies himself , which is this , viz. That our mortification and vivification by vertue of Christs death and resurrection is the spiritual grace or thing signifyed , and that respect or care must be had in the administration of it , that the quantity of water be sufficient clearly to represent the spiritual grace [ but how that can be without enough to be buried in water and raised again , what ere he thinks I know not ] but if you vvill , saith he , presse hence a necessity of Resemblance of Christs death , buriall and resurrecti - by our descending into , abiding in , and comming up out of the water , take heed least you be of those that adde to Gods word ; least he reprove you as a lyar , and adde unto you the plagues written in his book , for I know not any Word of God , wherein this representation is necessarily implyed , much lesse expressed . Thus whereas he saies elsewhere , as I have shewed above , that the end of baptism was to represent the spiritual grace as well as signify it , and that the spiritual grace , or thing signified , and to be cleerly represented is mortification and vivification , or communion with Christs death and resurrection ( which things t is strange he should say against the word of God , for he protests it to be against the word when we say it , and if there be any word expressing or implying a representation , which himself so much talks on , I am sure there is none like those two which we produce , viz. Rom. 6. Col. 2. which most lively shew it , as I shall shew anon , and undeniably declare ) yet here in the passage last cited , he that talks of this representation , and resemblance of Christs death and resurrection , and ours with him , as needful to be made in baptism , is a lyar with him and an adder to the word , which warrants no where to presse a resemblance of the thing signified in the dispensation of the outward sign , no not so much as in those Scriptures Rom 6. Col. 2. So this representation in baptism is with him it seems a matter that must be , and yet must not be , and yet must be . And yet for all this ( which is the wonder of me , and will be of many more , but specially of every wise man , that hath his wits about him , and would have bin of Mr Woodcock too , who without taking notice of any weaknesse in it , extoll'd the Book in the beginning of it , and put it forth to Sir Iohn Burgoines patronage , had he well weighed these passages of it ) Mr. Cook wheeles about once again , and will needes have a representation and resemblance of the thing signified by baptism in the manner of administration of it , and argues stiffely for it to , but the representation must be of what he pleases among the things signified , and not of the main thing signifyed in baptism , it must be of sanctification as t is called a washing a cleansing , a purging , a pouring of the spirit on us , a sprinkling of the blood of Christ on us , and so be done by sprinkling water : but not as it stands divided into its two parts mortification and vivification , a death and resurrection : or else if there must be a resemblance of this death and resurrection in baptism , then by an As for example fetcht from the old world , that was drowned , dead , buried by an infusion of water , not an immersion , and from the Ark which was rained upon only , and not overwhelmed , this death and resurrection must needs , and may better be resembled by an infusion and sprinkling then by total immersion or dipping in water , for if we urge to have the death and resurrection resembled by dipping . i. e. a descension into the water , and ascention out of the water , which we all know was the way of Christs and the Eunuchs baptism , we must urge also burial , which is principally expressed . Rom. 6. Col. 2. to be resembled too , by biding of the whole man under the water for some time , answerable to Christs three daies biding in the bowels of the Earth , which cannot be without danger , quoth he , yea certainty of drowning : and if sprinkling should not so fitly resemble as dipping and plunging , yet the Scripture no where requires the washing of the whole body , to all which I answer . Resp. 1. which thing of his called sprinkling of water on the face , for all he saies it may as well or better ( sith so many were of old killed and buried by sprinkling , or raining on them in the daies of Noah ) serve to resemble our death , and burial then dipping does , yet in truth resembles a death , burial , and resurrection , little more then a knock o' th' pate . Secondly , which drowning of the old world , as it would make not a jot for such a purpose as he pleads for , had it been by such a way as he dreames it was by viz. sprinkling , raining on them , by infu●ion and not immersion , yet in very deed ( and so hee l see , when he is awake , and his eyes are open ) was by immersion immediately , and not infusion , for it might have rained long enough upon the earth , before the men that had houses to shelter themselves in from that , would have bin killed , and buried under water , if the waters had not prevailed by a flood so high over the earth , as to overwhelm the men under it , and plunge them ore head and ears : and if he call that sprinkling and infusion , let him sprinkle or infuse water in such abundance , till the water sprinkled or infused , become of such depth about the parties he is about to sprinkle , as to swell ore their heads , and to swill them wholly under it , and I shall own such infusion for right baptism , yet none of Christs ordinance neither , unlesse dispenst to a right subject i. e. babes or beginners in the faith . Thirdly , which elegant allusion of his to the ark , as that on which water was onely powred or sprinkled , whence he seemes to argue thus viz. that it rained onely on the Ark , or water was onely powred or sprinkled upon the Ark , which Ark was a type of baptism , Ergo , baptism must be dispenst by sprinkling , is as simple a delusion as ever was devised , for if he intend that for an argument to prove that baptism is to be done by sprinkling ( and if not what does it there ? ) it does rather conclude that baptism must be sprinkled as the Ark was , for reduce his matter into the form of a syllogism , and see how sillily it concludes viz. thus The Ark was a Type of baptism . But the Ark was only sprinkled with the rain , not dipt . Ergo , baptism its antitype , is to be dispenst by sprinkling . He concludes more ●hen he can possibly squeeze out from those premises , and another thing then what is asserted of the Ark in his minor : whereas in right form it should run thus . The Ark typified baptism . But the Ark was rained on , baptized or wetted by infusion onely . Ergo baptism must be rained on , baptized or wetted by infusion onely . But then what simple stuff were this ? what a logical lump of artificial non-sense ? Besides , if it would follow that because the Ark which was a type of baptism was sprinkled , therefore the way of baptism is sprinkling , it would more truly follow that because the Ark was half dipt and half sprinkled , one part of it being under the water , another sprinkled with rain aboue the water , therefore the way of baptism is to dip one half of the person , and to sprinkle the other half : but alas the Ark was a type of baptism , as t was the way and outward meanes of salvation , but not in this respect as it was rained on : nullum simile currit Quatuor . Fourthly , which washings , purgings , sprinklings of Christs blood , and clean water typified of old , and foreshadowed by the blood of calves and goats , with water and scarlet wool , and hysop , wherewith Moses and the high priests after him sprinkled the old Israel , so that they were typically and ceremonially counted holy , and clean thereupon in a fleshly sense onely , are all expressions spoken not with such allusion to baptism ( as Mr. Cook imagines ) nor are so neer a kin to it as he laies claim to : for if they are all to be resembled and respected by us in our baptism , as things some way or other signified to us therein , yet are they not at all the main , or principall things , or such as are immediately , or primarily , but onely remotely , and secondarily signified to us therein , and so not necessarily to be either all , or at all so much resembled as something else : But the death , burial and resurrection of Christ , which is the rise and root , the originall and meritorious cause of all the rest , being that which ( though you would shut it out altogether from its interest and right of being represented in baptism of all the rest ) is mainly and most immediately signified , and primarily to be eyed , and respected , and all the rest but consequently , and through that , therefore its necessary that this should be resembled most lively , that it may take the deeper impression upon us . Yea these matters of Christs death , burial , and resurrection are such cardinall things to be considered , as quibus non mediantibus , without the mediation of which we cannot conceive clearly , nor lay claim to any of the other as ours . For as in the supper remotely heaven it self , and all spirituall excellencies are signified to us to be ours , yet all the things signified cannot be represented to the eye , but onely such as are the more immediate significations of it , and are the rise and proper cause of all the rest , viz. Christ crucified , and our feeding on him by faith , the seare , and are to be lively set forth unto us , and resembled before our eyes in bread and wine broken , and powred out and received and applied to us , but not all the fruits of his dea●h and our faith ▪ even so it is likewise in baptism ; and indeed the main signification in both is Christs person crucified , dead , buried , and raised , and that is to be resembled in both , and other things viz. the benefits of his death as remission of sins , and purging , &c. to be consequentially gathered from that , neither can , nor are , nor need all those to be resembled : But as for Mr. Cook he pleads stifly to have all these resembled viz. washing , purging , powring , sprinkling of the spirit and blood of Christ , but excludes the main thing altogether viz. Christs death and resurrection , which are the very rise and ground of all those : And yet if he will needs have all those to be resembled , are they not as much , and much more resembled by dipping and plunging a person in water , then by powring and sprinkling a little water upon him ? and is not swilling under water a more effectuall way of washing and clensing then sprinkling ? which though it be a Diminutive way of wetting , yet in truth is no way of washing at all : If therefore he will have washing , and such a washing as well deserves the name of clensing to be resembled in baptism , can he have even that done in a better way then by dipping ▪ or dousing ? for verily plunging , is a washing , and a more eminent way of washing , and purifying , and so more lively resembling ablutionem peccatorum the purging away our sinnes by the blood of Christ , then aspersion , or bare infusion , either of which without some after rubbing is a way of washing and clensing seldome used by men or women , unlesse it be among flatternes that are minded to leave things as foul well nigh as they find them : and I am sure there 's no rubbing succedaneous to your sprinkling , which is any ingredient to your dispensation , for what the priest drops on the midwife rubs indeed , not on , but off , and so as that is no washing , so ( if it were ) I hope you do not allow the midwife to give equal influence with the priest unto the dispensation of baptism . Besides , both sprinkling and powring are vertualy implied in plunging , and burying in water , but these are not at all supposed in the other , every lesser wetting being contained , and included in the greater , not so the greater in the lesse . Fiftly , which quirk of his concerning a necessity of abiding 3. daies under water answerable to Christs 3 daies buriall , if we will needs urge an necessity of resembling him in his death , burial and resurrection , is so fond , that a fool may find enough wherewith to refel it , for Mr. Cook knows that nullum simile currit quatuor , no similitude answers in all things , besides t is the truth and substance of the thing , not the circumstance , or quantity of time of abode , which is to be respected here , for a burial is as true a burial , when a person abides but 3. minutes wholly under the element , wherein he is buried , as if he abode 3. daies , and a burial is as truly represented by being once under water , as if one continued under altogether , and the resurrection a little better by being brought up again alive , then if one lay till he were altogether dead . Sixthly and lastly , which assertion of his , uttered in favour of his assertion viz. that the Scripture no where requires the washing of the whole body , is so much the more savouring of either ignorance , or forgetfulnesse in him , or both , by how much one of the very Scriptures , that are quoted by himself , as speaking in reference to baptism , doth require it , for its said Heb. 10.22 . let us draw neer with a true heart &c. and having our bodies washed with pure water , which clause ( if meant of baptism as undoubtedly it is ) requires not a sprinkling , but a washing ( and that 's more then your sprinkling is ) and this too not of the face only , which is the only part you sprinkle , but of our bodies ; which word whether we shall take properly to signifie the whole body indeed , or run to figurative acceptations , when we need not , and take the body by a Synechdoche of the whole for a part to signifie so small a part as the face only , I need not wish a wise man to determine , for every unprejudiced man that hath but common sense will see cause enough to take it plainly as it lies . Rantist . But all this while me thinks you make it appear so plainly as you not must , before I believe or receive it , that it is so needful as you would make it that there should be a resemblance of the thing signified in that sign of baptism at all , that 's the thing I wait to see proved ; for let Mr. Cook make what suppositions and grants he will of a resemblance , yet I see no reason at all to urge a necessity of such a thing , nor will I speak so much as ex hypothesi , if there must be , for none need be ●or ought I know . What I hope there are an hundred signes of things , which have not any analogy at all with those things they signifie . Baptist. Having thus blown away the strange mist , whereby Mr. Cook endeavoured to thicken the air , so that men might not discern clearly the true intent of those Scriptures Rom. 6. Col. 2. nor the truth at all in this point of total dipping ▪ I come now in answer to his and your , and Mr. Blakes flat denial of any word or warrant for any representation , and also to his demand p. 27. to shew how we gather from reason , and your own authors , and those very Sciptures you oppose , the diping of the whole man over the head , and under the water , and that a similitude of Christs death , burial and rising again to be represented by dipping into the water is signified there . But first , I must tell you I observe you know not greatly what to say among you against our urgings of a resemblance of Christs death , and burial , and resurrection from these Scriptures : for some of you stand it out , as much as you well can , that there is not to be any representation of a death and resurrection , as Dr. Featley and Mr. Cook both do , the Dr. keeping at such a distance from it , that to fence it farr enough from him he denies any such thing to be so much as signified , Mr. Cook yielding that that very thing among others is signified , and that the spiritual grace or thing signified is to be represented too , only you must excuse him as to that piece of the spiritual grace , all the rest but that he will give way to have resembled , but fearing least it can hardly be so cleerly evaded , but that t wil needs be proved against them that a death , burial and resurrection must be represented , they fall a proving it that there may be , and is a death burial and resurrection reselmbled in their way of sprinkling , and infusion , as much ( if not more then in our way of dipping ) but either of them shift for themselves in severall wayes , the Drs way wherein he proves there is a resemblance of death and resurrection in the manner of baptism , as it is administred in the Church of England is this , though the child be not dipped in water himself ( saith he ) yet the minister dippeth his hand in water und plucketh it out again when he baptizeth the infant , where note , that the Doctor doth conceive that though sprinkling may serve to represent a death and resurrection , as well as our dipping , yet it is upon this absurd account viz. in that there is a certain dipping accompanies their sprinkling , whereby that resemblance is made viz. the divping the hand of the Administrator : but Mr. Cook though he be not so gross as to imagine with the Dr. that the burying of the ministers hand wi●l serve instead of burying the persons body , which is , if any burial be at all , to be buried in baptism , yet he is as grosse in his conception another way , while he goes about to prove sprinkling , or infusion it self to resemble a death burial and resurrection as sufficiently as dipping , and this too by such a coined Chymaera , such a crude and immature imagination as is ridiculous , viz. of the old worlds being drowned and buried by no more then sprinkling , and the fall of rain : for verily neither was the rain a resemblance of a death , burial and resurrection , or any thing like thereto : nor yet was it the rain but the overflowing of waters by reason of the rain that drowned them , and though that orewhelming was a lively emblem of death and burial , as baptism is to be , yet there was nothing that resembled a resurrection , as in baptisme there must be , sith they never rose from under it any more . This crooked come off therefore of Mr. Cooks is ●arre more ridiculous then rational , and yet I know more men of his mind in this particular , I mean so far as to agree to it , with lesse ado then he doth , that a death , burial and resurrection is to be resembled in baptism , and yet to think that the sprinkling or casting water upon the party doth sufficiently make that resemblance ▪ but I testify to him that this his way is his folly , and theirs also that approve his sayings , and I advise both him and them that adhere to him to be heartily ashamed of two opinions of his , so equally odd and absurd that I can scarce tell well which of the two are more absurd then the other . The one is his supposition that the spiritual grace to be represented and resembled in the manner of administration of that ordinance of baptism is sprinkling , besprinkling with the blood of Christ , whence in order thereto he as unworthily argues , that baptism must be dispensed by sprinkling , which indeed nullifies it from being baptism , if he consider the inconsistency that is proved to be between them . The other is the thing in hand , viz. his supposition that sprinkling may well not only signify , but resemble a death , burial and resurrection as well as dipping , and is as well required , for so he hints p. 19. to be used in this Sacrament as the other . If those , who own these things , and whose own they are , will not be ashamed of them , for my part I am , for to think that the wisdome of the spirit , that in condescension to our dull capacities did leave visible signs to be not only true remembrances , but also lively resemblances of spiritual things , should order things so unsuitably to sense , as to require and appoint matters utterly unlike one another , and between which there is no Analogy at all to answer one the other by way of resemblance , viz. such a thing as rantism to resemble a death , burial and resurrection , which are to be , and are truly resembled all in true baptism , i. e. in dipping , or appoint such an ordinance as baptism , which in plain English is dipping , to resemble rantism only , or sprinkling with Christs blood is no lesse the absurdity in the abstract . But as for you your self , you are it seems of Mr. Blakes mind , i. e. resolved to own no necessity at all of any resemblance of any thing , nor of any ceremony to be in the sign of baptism , representing the things signifyed in it , I shall therefore shew that as in true baptism , i. e. dipping , there is de facto , and that Mr Blake confesses , so there ought to be de jure a proportion and resemblance of the death and resurrection of Christ , and of ours with him in that ordinance : whereas therefore you say that all signes do not represent the thing signified thereby , t is true who questions that ? but t will not therefore follow , but that there are some signs that both do , and may and by institution must not only signify , but also resemble at least the main things that are signified , of which sort baptism is without question one . We must here thefore distinguish concerning signes , among which some are natural , which by nature signify the things , whereof they are signs , as smoak signifies that there is fire , as we say there is no smoak but its a sig● there is some fire , a red and louring morning a sign of a foul day . Others Praeter-natural and institutive , which by institution signify the things whereof they are signes , and this either by humane appointment , as the Ivy-bush is a sign among men tha● wine is to be sold , where it hangs , or divine , as the Rainbow is a sign by divine appointment to signify that the world shall never be wholly drowned again by water : and these signes by divine institution are either such as are simpliciter signantia , meerly and simply significative of the things they signifie without any Analogy , or likenesse to them at all , as the Rainbow , which signifies , but resembles not the worlds deliverance from drowning , and the dew , and drought that were by turnes on Gideons fleece , which were signes to him of it , but not resemblances of his victory , and the shadowes going back upon the dial of Ahaz , which was a sign to Hezekiah , but not a resemblance of his recovery , and such like . Or else such as are sign●ntia et similantia simis ' , having in them the signification and similitude of the things signified together : and of this sort are all those signs which you commonly , but not properly call seals also viz. the sacraments , whether those of the old , or those of the New Testament , viz. Circumcision , and the Passeover , baptism and the Supper , from the manner of the administration of the two first of which you use to argue to the manner of the administration of the two last , which so far , but no further then serves your turnes you say came in the room of the other ; for though by way of Analagy with Circumcision , as comming in the room thereof , you would have baptisme dispensed to infants , yet neither Anallogically to males onely , nor on the 8th day onely , nor to male servants also , nor yet by way of analogy with the passover , which admitted of every circumcisied soul , will you admit baptized infants to the supper , which came by institution more truly , and immediately in the room of the Passeover , even when it was moriturum , if not plane mortuum ? for it was no more to be meddled with for ever , whereas circumcision was in use de jure after baptism was begun . But I pray Sirs be not pickers and chusers thus at your own pleasure , but if you will have an analogy to be held , let it be in such things , wherein it should be held between the old testament sacraments and the new . An argument however ad hominem i. e. sufficient to confute you out of your own mouthes , who plead so for analogy between those two administrations of the old testament , and these two of the new arises naturally from your own opinions , for if a proportion must needs be kept between circumcision and baptism in point of administration otherwise , why not in the manner of the administration of these signes , as they stand in reference to the things thereby signified , so as that the one of these signes viz. baptism , may stand in some proportion to its signatum , as well as the other i. e. circumcision ? The Pascal lamb without blemish , a bone of which was not to be broken , did not onely signifie , but lively resemble also Agnum immaculatum exhibendum , that lamb Christ Iesus , which was once to be offered without spot to God , and not a bone of him to be broken , also the supper that came after it doth not onely signifie , but resemble also Agnum exhibitum , Christ crucified , that immaculate lamb now offered , whose body was broken and blood shed , by bread broken and wine powred forth . Circumcision or cutting off the superfluous foreskin of the flesh did not only signify , but lively represent the signatum , the Circumcision o● the heart , i. e. sanctification , the paring off , and putting away the fleshly superfluities of the heart , and can you give us think you , or give your selves either any good account , why baptism onely of all the rest should be exempted in this case , from bearing semlably with the rest an Analogy , proportion and similitude to its signatum , i. e. the thing mainly notifyed therein ? which originally is the death , burial and resurrection of Christ , and our communion therewith , and plantation into the likenesse thereof : is not the manner of administration of that to be such also , as may resemble ( and so onely the way of dipping doth ) a Death , Buriall , and Resurrection ? Rouse up and reckon but with your consciences a little , and see if they will tell you otherwise , if they do they give the ly ( and that you who deify your Orthodox Divines will be loath to do ) to all divines both antient and modern , who so far as I find ( except onely Mr. Blake ) do teach us that the end of all the institutions of the Old and New Testament , to which you allow the name of Sacraments , are ex instituto , to resemble as well as signify their signifyed objects . Kekerman referres a●l the Sac●aments to the signes of that sort that do signifie cum Analogia , i. e. that bear a likenesse to the things signifyed , System . log . p. 12.13 . Calvin and Vrsin , that are men of much note in your Account , are thus opinioned both , as you may see in the institutions of the one , and the Catechism of the other , whether we are directed by you for sufficient furniture for infants baptisme . Calvin saies thus of the Sacraments : Institutionum lib. 4. cap. 14. sect . 20. a The Sacraments of the old Testament , did tend to the very same end , and purpose , as ours now do , namely that they might direct and lead us , as it were , by the hand to Christ , or rather that they might represent him as certain images or pictures , and set him forth to us to be known . Vrsins Catechism saies no lesse , but much more , and that much more plainly to this purpose , and what is spoken there too is not spoken as the opinion of Pareus or Vrsin onely , but as the mind of one , that may be more taking with you then any of these , viz. Saint Austin , who is stiled Malleus Hereticorum , one that mauld the Hereticks in his daies , who also is fainted up in so many pages of your Ashford Pamphlet , that you cannot for shame unfaint him so far , as not to believe him , but to rehearse a little what is there said , in the 358.359 . pages of that book : after mention made of the promise of the Gospel you may find these words , viz. b That promise that is given us in the word God doth more plainly declare to us by the sacraments , namely by that likenesse which is between the signs and those things which are signified ; as a picture or image declares that of which it is the image , for when the picture is understood , that even that of which it is the picture is made cleer , and verily farre more cleer then without a picture : and as a true picture is not well understood , if the likenesse or lively resemblance of the picture be not observed , so neither are the sacraments , unlesse the likenesse of the outward signes , and things thereby signified be understood : in this sense the Appollogy of the Augustinian confession , doth divers times call the sacraments by the name of pictures . And again p. 363. shewing wherein the sacramental union between the sign and the thing signified consists , it stands ( saith he ) in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vel similitudine signorum cum rebus signatis , in the analogy and likenesse that is between the signes and things signified . And then he goes on quoting Austin thus . De qua Agustinus , Si inquit sacramenta quandam similitudinem earum rerum quarum sacramenta sunt , non haberent , omnino s●cramenta non essent , and then again p. 365. speaking of those sacramental locutions ( as you call them ) whereby the sign is oft called by the name of the thing signified , and said to do , and be that , which onely the thing signified is , and doth in truth , This ( saith he ) is by a sacramental metonimy , and the meaning of it is not that one is changed really into the other , but because the sign doth so lively resemble the thing signified : Next to which he cites again the very same sentence out of Austin , which is rehearsed in latin just above , together with somewhat more , all which I English thus viz. If the sacraments should not have in them some likenesse to the things , whereof they are sacraments they could not be sacraments at all , but by reason of this likenesse , it comes often to passe that they bear the very names of the things they resemble . By the way I cannot but take notice what an argument here is against infants baptism , as well as against the form of Rantism , for if true baptism must resemble , as well as signifie , to the very eyes , and so mediante oculo to the understanding and minds of persons , to whom it s dispensed , is it possible for that baptism that was dispenst in Infancy to represent lively and cleerly to my sense and reason , when I am at years , the things therein signified ? for to call that a sign , much more a lively resemblance of a thing before our eyes ( so Buchau saies of baptism , ante oculos objicit ) which we never saw at all , or if we did , t was when we could not apprehend it , and so long since that we necessarily , and universally forget it , and that so farre that our fancy can never possibly recollect that outward appearance of those inward things , is no better then meer childishnesse , and very vanity to me . Rantist . This shewes indeed that t was the opinion of these Reverend men , that there ought to be of necessity as cleer a resemblance as may be of the thing signified in the administration of the outward , and visible sign in all sacraments , or else they are no sacraments , but that is nothing binding to us without some good ground out of Scriptures to believe it , therefore le ts see it appear from thence , and if you will from the Scriptures you began upon Rom. 6. Col. 2. in which I see nothing on which you can ground , that in baptism there must be visibly , and representatively a death , burial and resurrection , though I grant all these are signifyed thereby . Baptist. I rejoice much to see you renounce that implicit faith , whereby you have formerly lived , it may be more upon the mouth of Calvin , Vrsin , Austin , and other Authors , then on the mouth of Peter and Paul , or the mouth of Christ himself in his word ; neither do I urge any thing out of these Authors to be taken upon trust without trial , yet prove what they say however in this point , and hold it fast too , if by the word you find it to be good . I come therefore to consider that which first occasioned all this discourse , and to see if such a matter as a death , burial and resurection of Christ , be not here expressed , or at least implyed , neither of which yet is granted by Mr. Cook or Mr. Blake as things to which true baptism is to bear some resemblance , and here let me tell you though you and the rest are engaged to make the best of your rantism , now you see it questioned , and have begun in the face of the world to defend it , will sooth men up , and tell them there is none but the Anabaptists gather that there must be a representation of death , burial and resurrection from those places , and such like , yet we are not alone in our assertions even from those places , that these are to be resembled : for some that wrote impartially upon the places , Rom. 6. Col. 2. even of your own way before the matter came so much in question , have shewed their sense therof to be the same with ours , as concerning the representation of all these ; witnesse one Mr. Thomas Wilson , who in an exposition of his upon Rom. 6. declares from the 3 and 4 verses thereof in this manner . That baptism is a pledge of our sanctification in all the parts of it thus , the death of sin ( saith he ) is effectually represented by the water cast on us at our baptism ( though by his favor , who was I perceive of Mr. Cooks conceit that infusion might serve turn , not half so effectually as by the water overwhelming us ) the burial of sin by our being under the water , and by our comming out of the water our arising out of our sins to a better life through the power of the holy spirit applying Christs death and burial for the beating down of our corrupt nature , and his Resurrection for our quickening to godlinesse of living . Thus he , Neither is he alone in this sense upon these places , but most , if not all modern writers , that do purposely , or but occasionally touch upon these places , as Calvin , Vrsin , Paraeus , Tilenus , Zanky , &c. do fully agree with him in this particular , viz. that the lively resemblance of Christs death , burial and resurrection , and of ours with him , that is to be held forth in the administration of Baptism , is among other things signified in those Scriptures , and do with him expound the words baptized in his death , buried with him in baptism into death , wherein yee are also risen with him &c. not of the things signified only , viz. our Mortification of sin and rising to holinesse in a way of likeness to Christs death and resurrection , but also of the o●tward right and form of administration of the sign it self , to be done in a way of likenesse to them both , so that we by that ( as by an image or lively resemblance ) may not only be kept in a lively remembrance of the matter of them , but may bear the manner of those matters also in our minds . Thus Calvin l. 4. c. 15. s. 5. Alterum fructum affert baptismus qui nostram in Christo Mortificationem ostendit , &c. id est , another fruit of baptism is this , it sets forth our death to sin in Christ and our new life in him , fitly , as the Gosspel saith Rom. 6.3 . we are baptized into his death , and buried with him in baptism into death that we might walk in a new life . By which words he doth exhort us to an imitation of him , as if he should say we are admonished by baptism , that by a resemblance of Christs death , we should dy to our lusts , and by the example of his resurrection , we should rise to righteousness &c. Also l. 4. c. 16. s. 16. speaking against such as say ( no more then truth though ) Baptismum esse sepulturam , in quam nulli nisi jam mortui tradendi sunt , id est , That Baptism is a form or way of burial with which none , but such as are i. e. appear to be already dead to sin , or to have repented from their dead works are to be buried . And that he might vindicate infants who yet in infancy cannot dy to sin , or repent from dead works , tells us ( but believe him who will in that . ) Nos jam ante Mortuos per baptismum sepeliri , id est , That persons are to be buried in baptism , before they be dead , before they repent , or appear to have died to sin , and to prove that , he cotes this very place Rom 6.4 . which the scripture ( saith he ) Deserte reclamet , nos ea conditione in mortem sepeliri , ut emoriamur ac mortificationem istam exinde meditemur , i. e. very elegantly proclaims the contrary , namely , that we are buried in baptism into death , on this very condition , that we may die to sin , and may even by that outward visible burial we have in baptism be minded of the duty of mortification . Which Exposition is the truth , yet not the whole truth , nor yet so much as serves the turn Mr. Calvin brings it for : t is true we are baptized into death , or buried in baptism in token that we must , and on this condition that we shall dy to sin , yet not only so , but also in token , and on condition that we are dead in a measure , or have repented already ; nor doth it follow because we are buried in baptism , that we may , and in token that we must die more , and more to sin , that therefore we are to be buried in baptism before we die to sin , for we are to repent before baptism and after it also . But however the truth that is in it is enough to serve our turn at present , i. e. to prove his Judgement and ours to jump together , as to the true intent and meaning of those phrases in the text , viz. buried with him in baptism into death , which both hee and we take to expresse the outward rite of baptism , and that that outward rite be performed answerably to the name here given it in manner and form of a burial , which cannot be without submersion , and this too in token , and as a resemblance of our death to sin and burial with Christ , the signatum or thing signifyed and resembled , which whether it go before or come with or after the sign is not material . And though Mr. Calvin and we are twain and cannot agree whether we are to be baptized , i. e. buried in baptism before we are dead to sin or after , yet herein we meet in one with all other Expositors on this place so far as I find ( Mr Cook and Mr. Blake only excepted ) viz. that whether Mortui or Morituri we ought to be buried in baptism according to this place , not spiritually only , for that is the inward thing signifyed into which , i. e. in token and resemblance of which we are outwardly buried , but visibly and representatively also in the ceremony . Much what to the same purpose speaks Calvin again about three or four pages after , ' where coting both the places we are now in hand with , viz. Romans 6.4 . Col. 2.12 ▪ He Expounds the words buried with Christ in baptism of the verity of the outward rite it self , representing and betokening the spiritual death to sinne that ought to follow it . Paraeus also upon Vrsin p. 375. speaking how baptism is a token not only of remission of sin , but regeneration also , which he makes so synonimous with our death and burial with Christ that he cotes these these two places Rom. 6.4 , Col. 2.12 . to prove regeneration to be signifyed in it , ( for we are said ( saith he ) to dy and to be buryed with Christ in baptism ) gives this as one reason why we are said to be regenerated that is , in his sence , dead and buried with Christ in baptism , because of the likenesse that is between baptism and those things : so that he also takes the phrase buried with Christ in that place to sound forth Sepelitionem externam internae simulacrum , that external act of being buried in water by baptism , that is the lively embleme of the internal . Zanchy also upon Col. 2.12 . writes thus viz. Regenerationis duae sunt partes &c. of Regeneration there are two parts Mortification and vivification , that is called burial with Christ , this resurrection with Christ , the sacrament of both these is baptism , in which we are overwhelmed or buried , and after that do come forth and rise again ; it may be said truly but sacramentally of all that are baptized that they are buried with Christ and raised with him , yet really only of such as have true faith . Now I appeal to all men whether he do not here expound Paul in the words buried with him in baptism and therein risen with him as speaking of the outward rite of baptism whereby the spiritual death and resurrection is resembled , yea and so lively resembled that even such as have no more then the bare outward sign of water in baptism without the thing signifyed may be said , though Sacramentally , i. e , and analogically and in respect of neer resemblance yet truly to be buried and raised with Christ , this cannot be said of them that are but rantized onely , for if in respect of any Mortification and vivification they may be denominated buried and raised with Christ , yet that outward rite and ceremony cannot of it self denominate them so much as Sacramentally buried and raised with Christ , for there is not so much as any likenesse of such things in it , but he that hath the true outward rite of baptism , i. e. dipping dispensed to him may be truly said to be buried and raised with Christ , though he have no more , for he hath the same visible overwhelming , and burying in water and raising again in baptism , which in the bare ordinance of baptism Christ himself had . Bucan also that famous professor of Theology though he were so far benighted , by being no doubt accustomed to sprinkling , that he saw not the difference that is between it and dipping so far , but that he supposed one might serve as well as the other , yet cotes this sixt of the Rom. 3. and 4. to prove the Analogy that is between the sign and the thing signifyed in baptism in his 24 question in page 668. quae est analogia & convenientia signi et rei signatae in Baptismo ? optima , &c. saith he . What is that Analogy and Agreement which is between the sign and the thing signifyed in baptism ? Most apt , forasmuch as in the same Manner as the water washes the body , and clenses it from bodily impurities , so the blood of Christ by its merits washes away our sins and spiritual impurities , and his spirit sanctifyes us . Moreover that immersion into water or aspersion doth most clearly denote Rantismon the sprinkling of the blood of Christ in order to remission of Sins , and imputation of righteousnesse ; but the abode ( Quantumvis Momentanea , quantula cunque saith Tilenus ) though never so small ( so that both these confute Mr Cooks fancy of a necessity of 3 daies abode under water ; if we will have Christs burial represented ) lively denotes the death & burial of our corruption by vertue of the death & burial of Christ , that is , the mortification of the old man , but the rising out of the water doth most anal●gically as it were object unto our eyes the resurrection of the new man or our vivification , and newnesse of life and also our resurrection at the last day : See how this man , saving that he shuffles in aspersion and immersion as nothing differing , doth own immersion into water , abode under it , rising out of it as the most admirable way of analogy to signifie and resemble what ever was to be resembled in baptism ; again in his 53 question p. 692. he quotes Rom. 6.4 . saying with allusion to that Scripture that Predicatione sacramentali we are said in baptism to die , to be buried , to be raised with Christ , and that baptism confirmes our faith in these things , because it doth pingere mortem &c. plainly paint out the death , burial and resurrection of Christ , and therein is documentum &c. a certain lesson of our renovation , and resurrection . Now the reason of all such sacramentall locution , whereby the things signified are said to be done in the outward sign , is ( saith Paraeus ) analogia signi et rei signatae , tale enim quiddam est res significata in suo genere , quale quiddam est signum in suo genere &c. The likenesse that is between the outward sign and the thing signified , for such as the thing signified is in its kind , just such a thing the sign is in its kind for as the water washes away the filth of the flesh , so Christs blood our sinnes , and in such a manner as the sign is outwardly dispensed , so inwardly the thing signified , as the minister acts without , so God within &c. As therefore God within by the power of Christs death and resurrection mortifies , buries to sin , and raises us to righteousnesse , so must not the administrator without semblably bury the person in water in baptism unto death and raise him again unto life ? or in token of his resurrection to a new life ? if not where is then the analogie ? and if no analogie why are we said sacramentally in baptism to be buried , and raised ? sith the cause of all such sacramental locution is because the sacraments are ( as Austin saies ) pictures of the things signified in them ? or is aspersion an action as answerable to a burial and resurrection , and painting it out as lively as submersion and emersion do ? hic murus ahaeneus esto , This I know ( as sorry a shift as it is ) must be your most inmost shelter , when all is done for it can never be with any colour of reason , nor is it by any reasonable men , that I know , save Mr. Cook and Mr. Blake , denied but that baptism must exinstituto , according to the word , yea that word Rom. 6 , Col. 2. bear analogy to , and the image of the thing signified , yea and that very thing of all the rest , which are represented therein viz. a death , burial and resurrection by being under water , and brought out of it again , though by all that sprinkle t is most heedlessely thought , and therefore as senselessely taught that rantism , i. e. aspersion sets forth those to the life , as much as baptism i. e. immersion or overwhelming . Among the rest that write of baptism with any allusion to those Scriptures we are yet in hand with , what learned Tilenus saith is worth your animadversion , I confesse the man , though in his judgement he seem clear for our manner of baptizing by immersion , submersion , and emersion , as that which was the onely primitive action , and institution , yet is so far benighted by the mist and black vail of implicit faith which hath covered all Christendom , as to suppose that aspersion may now serve the turn , and that for sundry reasons some of which are apparently false , and never a one of them worth a straw , which I le repeat and answer as I go ; for saith he Ritus in baptismo est triplex , immersio in aquam , mora sub aquâ , et emersio ex aquâ , quam vis autem immersio usitatior olim fuerit presertim in Judea , &c. The outward ceremony to be used in baptism is threefold , dipping into the water , abode under the water , and rising out of the water , but howbeit this immersion was the usual way in former times , especially in Judea , and other warmer Countries , rather then aspersion [ where note that he grants ( and who does not but Mr. Cook , Mr. Baxter , and Mr. Blake , that having once denied it do strenuously resist it ? ) that the primitive way in Iudea , and those Regions was totall dipping ; ] yet ( saith he ) the circumstance pertaines not to the substance of baptism , [ which is false , for I have proved that to be no baptism that is but sprinkling . ] Secondly , and sith the analogy of the Sacrament may be held out no lesse in aspersion , then immersion [ which is as false and fond a fantasm as the other , for sprinkling hath no more likenesse in it to a death , a burial and a resurrection ( which though Mr. Cook and Mr. Blake deny it , yet Tilenus himself abundantly pleads , as I shall shew , and that ex instituto from these Scriptures Rom. 6. Col. 2. ought to be represented in baptism ) then it hath likenesse to immersion , submersion , and emersion , and that 's not so much , as is between an apple and a nut . ] Thirdly , and sith in legall purifications sufficiebant 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sprinklings did suffice [ which if they did , it was be cause these sprinklings with blood of the sacrafices , which were as well on the mercy seat as on the people in token of onenesse or atonement between God and them , were instituted directly , and solely to point out the spiritual sprinkling of Christs blood on the mercy seat in heaven , and on us here on earth in token of atonement , which is not the thing onely , mainly , originally , or immediately signified , neither so as that it onely is to be remembred and resembled in baptism , but the truth of the death , burial and resurrection of Christ , as the root whence all the other flows , and therefore that reason , though true , yet is nothing to the purpose . ] Fourthly , sith immersion [ quoth he ] may indanger the health , specially of such tender infants as are wont to be baptized now a daies , [ which shewes that of old such were not baptized , and that Christ never instituted this ordinance for infants , who cannot bear the dispensation of it to them , as it should be by right , without danger of death , but must of necessity , and in charity , and in humane prudence taking upon it to correct the divine wisdome of Christ , and modle his ordinances more to their own ease , have another thing i. e. Rantism universally dispensed to them instead of it . ] Fiftly , sith both these rites viz. sprinkling and dipping are expressed by the name of baptism Mat. 3.26 . Luke 11.38 . Mark the 7.4 . [ then which nothing is more contrary to truth , for though t is true that dipping is stiled baptism in Mat. 3.16 . the place he brings to prove that ( where note again that Christ himself was baptized by submersion ) yet that 's not true that Rantism is any where called by the name of baptism ; yea in the very places he uses to prove that viz. Luke 11. Mark. 7. t is most evident that t was more then sprinkling , yea and no lesse then a dipping , that is there called baptism , for t was washing of hands , which if ever any body living saw any , but slovens , wash , when foul , by no more then sprinkling two or three drops of water on them , they have seen more then ever I saw to my remembrance since ever I were born and christned . ] For these forenamed reasons saith Tilenus we suppose the Church by the law of charity , and necessity may use which of these rites she pleases . By all which it appears that though speculatively he saw submersion to be the way by institution , unlesse out of necessity , and charity the Church forbid it , yet practically he was as you are for aspersion , and this makes the more against you in this matter , in that a man that retained sprinkling as you do , sith t is the fashion in these colder climates , should yet be constrained to confesse so much institution as he does for that way of truth , I mean submersion , which we contend for ; for seriously take away the wretched reasons , which flattered him in to speak favorably of sprinkling , he was , as to the true way of total dipping , caetera orthodoxus , as orthodox as we desire him to be . I le bestow the paines of rehearsing what he writes so far as concerns our purpose , in very elogan● Latine p. 884.886.889.890 . of his disputations in as plain English as I am able . Baptism ( saith he ) is the first sacrament of the New Testament instituted by Christ , in which with a most pat , and exact Analogy between the sign and the thing signifyed , those that are in Covenant are by the Minister washed in water , the outward rite of baptism is three fold immersion into the water , abiding under the water , and resurrection out of the water : the form of baptism , to wit , internal and essential , is no other then that Analogicall proportion which the signes keep with the things signifyed thereby , for as the properties of the water in washing away the defilements of the body do in a most suitable similitude set forth the efficacy of Christs blood in blotting out of sins , so dipping into the water doth in a most lively similitude set forth the mortification of the old man , and rising out of the water the vivification of the New : although that Levitical rite of sprinkling of blood Exod. 24.8 . did more grossely resemble the blood of Christ , yet that was not so exact a similitude as is in the water of our baptism . That same plunging into the water holds forth to us that horrible gulfe of of divine Justice , in which Christ for our sins sake , which he took upon him , was for a while in a manner swallowed up . Abode under the water how little a while soever ( yet saies Mr. Cook it must be three daies , answerable to Christ three daies burial , or else it answers it not as a true resemblance of it at all ) denotes his descent into hell , even the very deepest degree of lifelessenesse , while lying in the sealed and guarded sepulchre , he was accounted as one truly dead : rising out of water holds out to us a lively simitude of that conquest , which this dead man got over death , which he vanquished in his own den , as it were , that is the grave , in like manner therefore it is meet , that we being baptized into his death , and buried with him , should rise also with him , and so go on in a new life Rom. 6.3.4 . Col. 2.12 . that these things are signifyed unto us in baptism the very outward rites themselves do teach , for immersion shadowes out to us the pravity of our nature , dying in us , in which our old man dies and is buried with Christ , the progresse of which benefit , putting forth its power in us by a little abode under the water points out , even as rising out of the water sets forth a new life , corruption being done away : hence it is that baptism is called the washing of Regeneration , and that whereby we are saved Titus 3.5 . 1 Pet. 3.21 . namely because what is done outwardly by the body in the sign , the same is truly performed , and confirmed to believers in the soul ; and even therefore both the names , and properties of the sign and the thing signified are very often interchangeably attributed to each other by a Sacramentally metonimy . Thus saith Tilenus in the forecited pages , and some of this he repeats ore again page . 1078. whereby you may guesse that in this his thoughts were well digested . Form a Baptismi est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saies he sive Relatio , &c. The Form of baptism is that Analogicall relation of the external and earthly , which are the signes , with the heavenly things , or things signifyed : this relation and most lively similitude , that is between them , is the cause why both the names , and the properties of the signes and things signifyed are frequently given to one another by a familiar metonimy of the holy Scriptures , wherein baptism is called the washing of regeneration , and is said to save us , saith he , and in this respect also ( say I ) we are said to be buryed and raised in baptism in those places , because of that lively resemblance of and likenesse to a burial and resurrection that ought by institution to be in the dispensation of baptism , and that is in that institution , if practised as ordained by Christ. Now who would think by all this but that this man had been baptized indeed , i. e. dipped into , buried under , and brought out of the water in his baptism , in remembrance and resemblance of Christs death , resurrection and his own with him ? for how does he speak , and that out of these Scriptures we are upon , that we ought thus to be baptized ? and these things are exactly exemplified to us saith he , as if he had the lively Effigies of all that was done to him in his baptism dwelling indelably in his mind , as if he had been truly buried , and raised visibly in baptism indeed ? and yet behold I believe I may be so bold as to guesse by what he saies in favour of infants sprinkling , and by one thing or other , that he was not baptized all this while , but meerly a Rantist , and none of us in practice , though so much for the way of dipping in his discourses . Rantist . But quorsum haec ? what mean you by all this quotation of Authors . Baptist. Because Damnati lingua vocem habet , vim non habet , the words and constructions of a condemned man , that is prejudged to be a heretick before he is heard , are like to sway but little among his Accusers , and therefore I rather chose to convince Mr. Cook and Mr. Blake who deny these Scriptures either to expresse or imply a representation of death , burial and resurrection to be held forth in baptism by immersion , submersion , emersion by the judgments of their own approved orthodox Authors , then by my own , judging within my self that those words of Paul Act. the 17.28 . viz. as certain of your own poets have said , was ad hominem an argument of more weight , then an Argument of ten times more weight then it self , and that if the joint harmony of Modern Divines , holding forth from Rom. 6. Col. 2. a necessity of resemblance of burial and resurrection to be made in baptism by immersion , submersion , emersion , be not considered , the never so well grounded Testimony of my single silly self must needs be sleighted . Neverthelesse whether you will hear , or whether you will forbear I shall leave a word or two upon record , whereby either to inlighten you , that there is a resemblance of a burial and resurrection necessarily to be held forth in baptism , and that no lesse is necessarily implyed at least in these two places , Romans 6. and Coloss. 2. or else to leave you without excuse in your disownings of it : For First , this will appear plainly ; if it be considered that by the word baptized in the texts is undoubtedly meant the outward rite , ceremony , sign and form of the administration of baptism . Secondly , if it be considered that the phrase buried with him and risen with him , i. e. Christ , doth expressely relate immediately , and specially ( if not onely ) in those texts to that outward sign it self , as that in which , ta●en distinctly from the mistery and inward grace . we are said to be buried and risen , not onely in signification , but in lively representation of the inward and spiritual burial and resurrection with Christ , and not to the spiritual , internal death and resurrection it self , as that which is to be understood by those phrases at all , muchlesse onely , or altogether , or abstractively , and apart from any outward and bodily burial and resurrection in baptism , as Mr. Cook and Mr. Blake , seeme too impishly to imagine . Thirdly , this appears yet further insomuch as there are other phrases in that 6 of the Rom. that do intimate , and expresse that spirituall death and resurrection that is signified by the analogical , and representative burial of the body in water , and raising it again in baptism viz. dead to sin , alive to God , newnesse of life , &c. Here is mention made of the things signified : And as for that that is spoken of under this expression buried in baptism t is delievered as a medium whereby , as a motive whereupon , as a reason wherefore , as an image and representative wherein we are both to read , and remember , and also to practise , and perform that other : for do but mark , how shall we ( saith he ) that are dead to sinne i. e. should be so , live any longer therein ? know you not that as many of you as were baptized into Christ i. e. into or in token of an interest in him of a onenesse , and fellowship with him by faith , are baptized into his death , i. e. in token of such a communion with the power of his death , as kills ●in , and crucifies the old man , So that henceforth we should not serve sin ? therefore , or hence it is , saith he , that in baptism i. e. the outward ordinance , we are buried with him i. e. outwardly , visibly bodily in water into death i. e. in token and resemblance of our dying to sin by vertue of his death , that we should be ever practically mindful of this , that like as Christ rose again after he was dead , so we should rise to a new life : for if we have bin planted together in the likenesse of his death i. e. signally in outward baptism , spiritually , and really in the inward work , and washing , performed by the spirit upon the soul , we shall be also in the likenesse of his resurrection i. e. we should be de jure , and shall de facto as we believe . Fourthly , this burial and resurrection that is immediately expressed by the words buried with him in baptism wherein you are also risen with him , is made a motive , argument , and incitement to the spiritual death , and resurrection , for therefore are we perswaded to die to sin , and live righteously , because in baptism we are buried in water ; and raised again in token that we ought so to do , and on this cond●on are we baptized and buried and raised therein , and so interessed into all the other benefits of Christs death , remission of sins and salvation viz. that we should die to sin , and live holily ; and to this end also that we may be minded thereby to do so . Nos ea conditione in mortem sepeliri in baptismo Scriptura reclamet , ut emoriamur , ac mortificationem istam exinde meditemer , Saith Calvin l. 4. c. 16. S. 16. Now if this death and burial , that we are buried with in baptism , be to this end to teach us , and shew us that , and how we must die to sin , then the buriall in baptism there spoken of is not the death to sin it self , for the motive and things we are moved to are two , and so are the sign and thing signified . now Fifthly t is not only such as is made a motive to the other , therefore is not the other , but such a death and resurrection as is performed , accomplisht , transacted in baptism i. e. in the very time and juncture of our baptizing , therefore cannot be meant of our spiritual death and resurection immediatly , but of that burial and resurrection which the outward man in a figure , or resemblance passes through both at , & in the administration of the ordinance , for the spiritual death and resurection is that , which though it be signified and resembled in baptism , yet it is seldom , if ever , transacted in a person in that juncture of time wherein he is baptizing , but for the most part before or after , yea ever either before or after , and never in the very nick and act of baptism , no neither of your baptism nor of ours , for you who professe to baptize infants have a subject , of whom you hope that he will die to sin , when he lives to years , but you look not on him as one that is mortuus , but moriturus , and that not in baptism but long after it , unlesse you suppose baptism confers the inward grace viz. death to sin ex opere operato still ; but we baptiz●ng believers baptize such as repent from dead works , and in fieri , though not infacto esse , are dead to sin before we baptize them , as well as oblige them to die more to sin after it , yet you say your subjects for all that are buried in baptism too , and so say we of ours , therefore the burial in baptism there meant is no other then that of the sign , for the thing signified viz. the death to sin is not done in baptism , whether it be before or after it , and one of the two it is , for Calvin saies truly that we hold baptismum esse sepulturam in quam nulli nisi jam mortui already dead i. e , dying to sin are to be buried , but of himself and others that are baptized in infancy he saies quoting Rom. the 6.4 . nos jam ante mortuos per baptismum sepeliri i. e. before we are dead to sin , we are buried by baptism l. 4. c. 16. S. 16. the burial therefore is not the signatum , but the signum i. e. their putting under water in baptism , which sacramentally is called a burial , even therefore because of the analogy and likenesse it bears to such a thing , even to Christs burial , and ours with him , which are the things analogized and lively resembled thereby i. e. by immersion , for by aspersion they are not . And so I have proved by three arguments hitherto that Christs ordinance of baptism is a totall dipping viz. First by the prime signification of the word baptize which is to overwhelm or wash by swilling , or dipping , but never to sprinkle , as Rantize never to dipp or wash . Secondly by the practise of the primitive times , which was totally to dip , as I have made appear many wayes . Thirdly by the name of a burial and resurrection , that 's there given to the outward sign by a sacramental Metonimy i. e. in this respect as in its dispensation it must bear analogy and likenesse , as spirinkling does not , to the death burial and resurrection of Christ , and ours in him , which are the things immediatly signified in baptism , and therefore mainly , and as lively as may be to exemplified thereby . If there be yet any more to say against dipping , and for sprinkling , let us hear it , and as I find it true upon triall , or false and feigned , so accordingly I shall eit●er answer it , or yield , for I know that he , who is not as desirous to hear all that can be said against what he holds , as what is to be said for it can never be so solidly settled in it as he should be : for nil tam certum quam quod ex dubio certum est , Nothing more sure to a man then that which he sees as well on what ground some doubt and disown it , as one what himself owns and imbraces it , and though I professe my self to be beyond all doubt that Rantism is no ordinance of Christ , but a meer figment of men meaning to serve Christ by the halves , nor infant baptism neither , ( howbeit I have disputed for them both , and thought I did God service in it too ) yet he that knoweth my heart , knoweth that I have so unsatiable a thirst after the knowledge of truth , that if I could think those things to be the truth of God , as I once did , upon the same totten , and reasonlesse principles you now think so on , I should re-entertain them with rejoicing in my flesh , which would find much ease , and honour by it , and in the spirit much more , which would have that ease , and honour , with peace of conscience , which I was once constrained to deny my self of , because it was once inconsistent in me with such peace , but welcome that disgraced truth of dipping disciples , sith t is that truth , which I am certain ( howbeit they have trampled it for a time ) the gates of hell shall never prevail against , nor the ablest man on earth , so as to disprove it by all that is to be said to the contrary from the word of Christ. Rantist . There 's more to be said yet to the contrary , and more then ever was answered yet , or ever will be to any purpose by you , or any one else of your gang , and that not onely in way of exception against much of that you have alleadged about the childishnesse , vanity , and insufficiency of infants sprinkling , but also against that dipping fancy you are fallen into , which is some new motion , or renewed notion at the best , having ( for all you have said ) neither good ground , nor example from the word , onely the old greek word may be so construed , and that 's all the ground I could ever learn for that fluid practise , and I am confident that you and that party are wholly in the wrong , for I have seriously studied that controversie , and besought the Lord to guide me , and his good spirit by principles from his word of truth sealed upon my conscience doth assure me that way of dipping is groundlesse , irrational , and more uncivilly foolish , then infant baptism can be called childish , and I desire you to tell me what commission he had that baptized you , who may possibly be an unbaptized person , or if he was not yet if you look but some few removes backward , and inquire who baptized him ? and who him ? and who him ? &c. you must come at least to unbaptized persons , I mean even in your own account , who deny sprinkling to be baptism , and such I hope you do not count fit administrators of baptism , and yet such must begin it , for your way was not in use very long agon , also what commission hath Christ given you to baptize , you being no minister of the Gospel ? and also what commission he hath given you or any else to baptize in that manner , which is without Scripture , against reason , and common sence and discretion ? yea I may say against all principles of modesty and common honesty , and charity to mens lives , and so against both the sixth and seventh commandement that many judicious men have judged it to be little lesse then murther , and adultery , and I could easily prove it to be as bad as I say of it , but that its superfluous so to do , sith sundry of our worthy Mr. Baxter Divines viz. Dr. Featley , Mr. Blake , Mr. Cook , and especially have some of them in one perticular , and some of them in another , done it so sufficiently already that I le rather refer you unto them . Baptist. I have been so much innured to such hot-shots since I owned the truth , that I can well walk in the middest of them now without amazement : much of this sort of matter I have under my hands in private letters to my self , and others , and what of it is not there is legible I confesse , as it were in text letters in the printed Polemicals of your Champions , whose sharp censures , and heavy charges of the way of truth , which we walk in , how judicious they are shall ( God willing ) be anon examined , sith you send us to them : at present you shall have a short word to your quaeries , and such other passages which may occure , and intervene either from your self , or their writings in way of contradiction or obstruction to any thing that hath been said before . Your first is grounded upon a simple supposition , that an unbaptized person may in no case baptize , or make a fit administrator of baptism , whereas there is nothing in the world more clear then this , that when it is to be done , and cannot be well done otherwise it may be done ( as well as by one that was ) by one that never was baptized at all : yea why not in case of innitiation after intermission as well as at the innitiation of the Gospel it self ? I wonder who baptized Iohn the Baptist , that was the greatest administrator that ever was ? for either he was baptized surely , or else he was not , if he was ever baptized at all , who baptized him ? but if he was never baptized the matter amounts still to be the same , i. e. to evince no lesse then we assert that at the innitiation of the dispensation , whether at first , or after a long unlawful cessation , an unbaptized person may baptize : for if Iohn the Baptist himself was not baptized himself , or if he was , either by one that was unbaptized , or else by one that was first baptized by himself , he talks in his sleep that saies an unbaptized person may not in such a pressing case baptize . Your second querie is as unsolidly grounded as the other , and supposes your opinion to be this , that no man , though baptized himself , unlesse he be a Minister , i. e. an ordained officer may baptize , for say you what commission have you to baptize you being no Minister of the Gospel ? whereas if by Minister you mean one officiating as a pastor over a people , there is nothing more cleer in the world or in the word either , then that others besides the Ministers may baptize , viz. not any she , for which there 's no president , but rather precept to the contrary 1 Cor. 14. 2 Tim. 2. but any prophet i. e. any he gifted disciple , especially when by the improvement of his gifts he proves , as not seldome such do , instrumentall of the parties convertion : Ananias baptized Paul himself , yet was he but a certain disciple Acts the 9. if you say that he was sent by God himself , to that service , it serves to shew this however , which we affirm that God limited not that disp●nsation to the Ministry , for if he had he would have sent Peter , or at least some other officer to that work . Did not Philip baptize the Samaritans and the Eunuch ? yet he did it in the capacity of a disciple , and howbeit t is true he was ordained to be a Deacon , and Deacons were by the Bishops babishly authorized to baptize , yet that was no part of his office as a Deacon , for his Deaconship designed him to no more then barely to have a care of the poor , and if you say he was an Evangelist also , so is every one that is gifted to preach the Gospel , and doth it , whether he be in any office or no , for Evangelist is nothing but a preacher of the Gospel , and such are they that occasionally preach it , as well as such as preach it constantly by way of office : therefore all the disciples that were scattered together with Philip it s said went every where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 8.5 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Act. 11.20 . and Philip that was one of those disciples 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Acts 8.40 . preached or did the work of an Evangelist , whence Philip was called Evangelista , that being the very thing made him an Evangelist , and not his Deaconship , besides which he had no other office , because he did Evangelizare : no man can give a reason why the scattered disciples that did Evangelizare , or preach the Gospel with him should not be denominated Evangelists as well as he , and indeed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 differ no more then a Preacher and he that preaches , and though every Pastor be both an Evangelist and a Prophet ; yet he that saies every Evangelist , and Prophet is a Pastor or an ordained officer qua sic , or that either of these are nomen officii , or sounding forth more then a person thus or thus gifted viz. the Evangelist to preach the Gospel for the conversion of such as are yet without , the Prophet to speak to the exhortation , edification and comfort of the Church , and people already converted , and both these occasionally only , and not as by vertue of an ordination to an office , may say it ten times over , before the Scripture , rightly understood , will furnish him to make proof of it once . And as these ordinary disciples , for the Apostles abode still at Ierusalem Act. 8.1 . went every where as well as Philip , pro suo modulo Evangelizantes preaching Christ according to their abilities , so the hand of the Lord was with those occasional preachers , that a great number believed , and turned to the Lord by their means , and were baptized also undoubtedly by their hands ; yea the famous Church of Antioch had its foundation from this , and grew into a Church , which they could not do without baptism , before any actual officer came neer them : for though Paul and Barnabas walked with them for a year and improved their gifts for their edification , yet neither of these , were yet actually any more then Evangelists , and Prophets , though before by God intended , and not long after by the Church visibly ordained to their Apostleship , i. e. men of excellent gifts , and this will appear Act. 11. from verse 19. to the end , with Act. 13. v. 4. and backward to the beginning : you do therefore greatly err not knowing the Scriptures , which tell you also plainly that though Paul converted all the Corinthians , yet his own hands baptized but a few , committing that dispensation , as an inferiour work to his preaching , to the hands of inferiour disciples , as Mr. Baxter himself also confesses to your confutation , asserting it from 1 Cor. 1 17. so though Peter converted the company in Cornelius house , yet surely he baptized them not all , if any at all , with his own hands , but left the administration to the hands of others , some one or more of the brethren that came with him ; And the manner of speech implies plainly no lesse , for he commanded that they should all be baptized in the name of the Lord : yea so far is the word from tying up the dispensation of baptism to an office , that we have much more president and proof after Christs ascension of comon disciples , then you have of officers baptizing . You therefore make much more a do in this then needs , you strain indeed at a goat , and swallow a camel , and busy your self so about the truth of administrators , that you have lost the truth , and substance of the administration it self ; were your baptism true baptism indeed , there is no necessity that ordained Ministers must administer it , but unlesse it were truer then it is , no matter if it were never administred at all . Know therefore Sirs I beseech you that the verity worth , weight and efficacy of baptism depends not upon the quality of the person administring , but upon the truth of the subject to whom , and the true form wherein t is administred ; the Scripture prescribes plainly who they are that shall , and in what manner these shall , but not at all by whom they shall be baptized : t is the duty of them that believe to be baptized , and his duty that baptizes to baptize indeed , not rantize only , and to baptize such as , being taught the Gospel , do believe it , but who they must be that are to baptize those is neither here nor there to the baptism for ought I find in the word , so they be but Masculine disciples : nay though the person baptizing be not only no officer ( but in the case above named as yet ) unbaptized himself , yet if the person baptized be not only a believing disciple , but also baptized really , and indeed his baptism is never the worse for the other : Experience tells me , and I believe many more , that have been baptized according to truth , that t was drawing neer to Christ with true hearts in his true ordinance that made us accepted in his sight , not the qualifications of the baptizers , whose baptism and ministerial functions ( were they invested with both ) could add never the more validity nor verity to our baptism , as neither could the non-entity of either of those in them have possibly made the baptism so sincerely submitted to , be in any measure void , and of no effect ; the placing so much in persons administring as to think our selves ere the better for that , was that fantastical fopery of the Corinthians for a while , one saying I am of Paul , another I of Apollo , another I of Caephas i. e. I was baptized by such or such , which made the Apostle Paul , who with his own hands baptized but some of them , well nigh wish he had baptized none of them at all , when he saw their carnall glories in the persons administring , and blesse God that he baptized no more , least they should have thougt the better of themselves , and of their baptism for its dispensation of it by his hands . The administrators therefore being baptized or not baptizd , minister or no minister maketh the baptism , if elsewise warrantable , neither better nor worse of it self : all this I speak all this while , not as granting that our baptism is by unbaptized persons , and that my self am no minister of the Gospel , for neither of these shall be yielded by any meanes , unlesse you were more able then you are to prove them , I speak it suppositively that if these were both so , yet both my baptizing and being baptized may be warrantable enough notwithstanding or else if we deemed it worth while to seek out what succession our baptism hath had from the Apostles , in a series without interruption , t is possible there were some disciples in all ages that owned the truth , though so few and despised , that their generation can scarcely be declared , for who can declare his generation , whose life in himself , and his was still cut off from the earth ? but we go by the word that is above all Church and Ministry in our account of our baptism and ministry , and not by succession in either : and as for your selves , that hold so much on succession , and boast of a lineal descent of your ministry and Rantism from the Apostles , t will pussle you no lesse to prove that , if we put you to it , then t will if we put you to it to disprove a lineal succession of our baptism , for if we cannot name the particular persons that baptized one another in this way , wherein we do it , successively from the persons of the Apostles in answer to this question who baptized you ? and who him ? and who him ? and so upwards till we come thither , are you able if we ask you who sprinkled you ? and who him ? and who him ? and who him ? &c. to particularize more punctually then we ? are you able to assign who began our way of baptism first of all in the world , unlesse you begin as high as Iohn the baptist ? nay verily though Dr. Featley would fain father it upon Stock , yet it s most manifest unto you all that infants sprinkling was denied by some ever since it was known to have a being , for it was controverted in the daies of the fathers , and that it would not have been had there been none that had then denied it , and denied it could not be by any but such as pleaded the baptism of believers , in those times , and were the right way baptized themselves . You have not one president of one infant sprinkled , nor proof that such a thing was so much as talked on , for at least an hundred years after Christ , but we are most certain , and your selves cannot deny it , that the bapti●m of believers began at Iohn the baptist , and the Apostles , and if we could prove a succession of it de facto no further downwards then so , yet it is enough to us that we find it then was so , whereby to prove that it ought to have been so in all ages since , and is to be de jure at this day . One word more and then we have done with this , if none at all save such as are baptized themselves may in any case dispense baptism to others , save such also as are by ordination true ministers of the Gospel ; then your selves , who pretend solely to the title of baptizing , are no right administrators , as being in truth neither baptized , nor ordained in such wise as the Scripture requires : that your baptism is null I have cleared it enough already , and that your ministry is no lesse is apparent , sith whilst you indeavour to derive it from the Apostles , you can derive it thence no other wise then the Pope doth his , for if a line of succession be a proof of true ministry , you may indeed derive it as well , but not one jot better then he , he can shew you his line of succession , if not from Peter , yet at least from Linus himself , that lived in the daies of the Apostles , and you can shew us the line , wherein you came from the Pope , and so through his loines from the other : there is no other way for your ministry to prove its pedigree from the Primitive times but this , no way for you to climb up to the Apostles as the fathers , and founders of your function but by a chain of many linkes , whereof if one happen to prove unsound , and t is a chance but a flaw may be found in some of them , that have been trailed for many hundreds of years together through the hands of that Apostaticall harlot , the intaile is clear cut of , your pedigree and descent from the Apostles , as a ministry , perishes , is spilt upon the ground , and can never be tact on again any more for ever : you have hitherto owned your ordination as handed by an uninterrupted lineal succession from the Pope to the present Presbytery , and if we put the question to the veriest novice or youngling among you , who ordained you ? and who ordained those that ordained you ? and who them ? and who them ? and who them ? you can find your function flowing in a continual stream from the Primitive fountain no other way , but through that stinking sink and corrupt channel of the holy chaire ; Pope Gregory the great gave power of ordination to Austin the Monk , when he sent him over into England about a thousand years since , he to the Popish Bishops , they to the Protestant Bishops , they to the Presbyters , and the Presbyters to their present Preachers : thus what Ministeriall power you have hangs upon the Protestant Bishops , theirs upon Austin , Austins upon the Pope , the Popes upon Peter : you came i. e. descended from the Pope , the Pope came i. e. departed from the Apostles , and thus from the Apostles you came all , but thither you must go again , letting go your sweet succession , and from their words , which are the same now as then , begin your businesse again before you can be right , or know any thing cleerly where you are , for if he whom your selves call Antichrist , , made you a ministery of Christ , you may be the Ministry of the Church of England if you will , which if it be vere Ecclesia a true Church at all , y●t is such a one as had its parochial posture from whence you had your power , and therefore fit enough each for the other , but of the Church in England , which is vera Ecclesia the true Church indeed , you shall never be the Ministry for me , till you repent and be baptized . As for my self whom you deem to be no Minister of the Gospel , I must not lead you so far from the other work in hand as to stand upon the proof of that now , having transgressed ( as some will think ) too far already , though else it were no impossible thing to prove it , and therefore I say this only in short that whether I am now a true Minister of the Gospel or no , t is now my utmost aim to preach and promote the truth of it as t is in Jesus , but as for the time in , which I was owned a Minister of the Gospel , I was at that time no true one at all , yea though I have obtained mercy , and such mercy as to be made a Minister thereof since , because I did what I did ignorantly , yet so far was I then from a Minister of the Gospell that I rather rejected the counsell of God against my self , being not baptized of them that preached it , and disputed much against it as well as you . And now as unto your third quaery , viz. what Commission have any to baptize in that manner ? that is , by dipping , which you stile such an irra●ional , and undiscreet way , t is that which I have resolved you in so satisfactorily before , that unlesse you have more to say against it then to miscal it , as you do , before you have proved it to be so base as you are pleased to stile it , I shall rejoice in Christ Jesus that hath chosen such foolish and base things as dipping in water is , in the account of men however excellent in it self , and in proof of its warrantableness , unles it be occasionally , add no more . Rantist . I have referred you already where you shall find exception against all you have said before , as concerning the truth of the way of baptism , and I desire that you would find your self work a little therewith , I mean the forenamed books that are extant , specially that of Mr. Baxter whom I know to be a very able and godly man , who hath in mine , and I think in all discerning mens Apprehensions so sollidly disproved , and clearly confuted your way of dipping , that few or none of those , that see what he saies in that point , will be of your mind , and follow your fashion therein , for whereas you say that dipping was the custome in the first times , and therefore go about to seduce men into the belief of it , because it s said that the Eunuch went down into the water , and that John baptized in Aenon because there was much water there , he replies that is a thing never proved by any , and that the Jaylor was baptized in the night in his own house , and therefore not likely over head in that Countrey , where water was so scarce , and that the Eunuch might well be said to go down into the water , for the Country was mountanous , and the brooks in the bottoms , and that even the River Aenon it self where Iohn baptized because there was much water , is found by Travellers to be a small brook , which a man might almost step over , and much more , that gainsaies much of what you have said , is in the 135. page of his book , which I shall expect your answer to , but if you please le ts see what you can say to this first . Baptist. I shall very freely speak to any thing which hath not yet been spoken to in particular , and to Mr. Baxters exceptions in that particular rather then any other , because he is most noted in those parts were he lives , and also in the examination of his Exceptions , I shall have the more hint to take notice of such reliques , and broken pieces as remain yet unspoken to , as the gainsayings of the rest in this point , for he seems to me to have gathered them up there , and to have epitomized those mens matter as i● were into a fardel of fewer words : excepting the two last grand Arguments of Mr. Cook against dipping , one of which Doctor Featley affronts us with in the title page , and both of which are more sparingly spoke to yet , covertly touched , and tacitly touched upon by Mr. Cook , and those Mr. Baxter rather comments on at large , and makes ( I cannot say a fairer , but a fouler , a falser , and far more miserable improvement of then any of the rest do : This he professes to be the businesse of his book p. 13. viz. To use the proofs that others make use of in some newer kind of way , confessing that few have improved their Arguments as they might have done , nor mannaged them in the most forcible way , and not to medle much with those arguments that others have fully mannaged . Yet ( by his leave ) he meddles so much with the Arguments that others almost every one makes use of , that he makes some of them the worse again , he mars many a one with his mendall Mannagement . It is not to use many Arguments ( saith he ) but to drive home a few . Yet he uses many more then any one else , viz. three capital ones to prove infants to be disciples , twenty cardinal ones , to prove them members , to which ( Nos numeri sumus ) a number of others are subservient , and subordinate two more in proof of babisme , besides eight in proof of no body knows what , all these in his Disputative piece of book , so that for ought I find Et sinon prosint singula , multa juvant , his genius stood more to numerositie , than dextery in handling a few , unlesse by few he mean only the three main Mediums as Capital , and Cardinal to the rest , the first of which , but especially the second , in tot ramos , ramulos & ramusculos se ipsum Rantizavit , hath stragled it self into so many small branches , that indeed it hangs not handsomly together within it self , and indeed the whole is but a certain three legged stool , which he hath made for people to sit at rest upon in their vain Worships , and se●vings of God , after the Precepts of men , which if they never be broken by any hand , writing responsibly to them , yet are so rotten , that they will wear out within a while of themselves : but be they few or many he might well say he would drive home a few , for verily above all the rest , those two I speak of , viz. wherein dipping is called Murther , and adultery , he drives on beyond the bounds of modesty , truth , sense and reason . as far , I dare say to the full , as God would suffer the Devill to direct , and drive him . For my part I never saw Mr. Baxters face that I know of , but I see too much of his spirit in his latest labor , in which , if the spirit of God had been his leader , he would not have led him into that confident utterance of such utter untruths , not onely in point of doctrine , but matter of fact too now and then : let his parts , let his piety you talk on , be more then his parts if it will , God once left as honest as holy , as worthy a one as he can be , in punishment of a people whom he had a mind to plague for their dotage on him , to be stirred up by Satan to do things inconvenient , and unseemly 1 Chron. 21.1 . and so it seemes to me he hath left Mr. Baxter , as Godly as he is , or else there could never have issued from him such inconsiderate crudities , such rank venomous , viperous , ulcerous fluxes of folly , flesh , fierceness , fiction , falseness , firery invectives , to the madding of the very magistracy , if it would be any longer blinded by the bawlings of a mistaken ministry , against many a dear Saint of God , against a people precious to God , though base in his eyes , against thousands that are as intimate with God , and more privy to his will in point of baptism then himself , that thus he does shall appear by and by , at present see what little verity and less validity is in that first viz. that it is not yet proved by any that dipping was the primitive custome , when yet it s proved , if not by many , yet at least by two of our way viz. A. R. and Mr. Blackwood , and that so sufficiently that if Dr. Featley , and Mr. Baxter , Mr. Cook , and Mr. Blake did not decline them , and if they had been minded to mark and seriously to search the Scriptures , and not to dazle mens eyes with all the fiddle-faddles they could find to fling before them , and to satisfie themselves at slender rates in the present custome , rather then cry out for a change , sith it is the present custome , the Scriptures they hint on are so plain , taking the words thereof , not in feigned , forced , figurative and forreign , but in their own prime , direct , native , ordinary , proper , and rational sense and signification , that he who runs may read no lesse then this , that dipping , yea total , was the way wherein baptism was then dispensed : but if we had not such proof of it extant from our own party , yet t is so clear of it self that men famous , even of your own way that have not thrust their fingers too far into the fire of this controversie , concerning the primitive form of baptizing ( as these men have done , and therefore will on in what they have once asserted , and get thorow by hook or crook , rather then recede with that shame ( I should say honour ) which is the right of every recantant , when he sees he hath misreckoned ) do not onely confesse , but also teach us the very same that we stand for . Witnesse Tilenus , who tells us that Immersio usitatior olim fuerit praesertim in Iudea et aliis regionibus &c. p. 886. dipping , yea totall dipping ( for in the very line before he defines the right of baptism to be tripple , Immersio in aquam , mora sub aqua , emersio ex aqua , plunging into the water , abode under it , resurrection out of it ) was rather used heretofore specially in Judea , and other warmer countries then sprinkling . Yea Dr. Featley , that is as it were the fronteer or fileleader in doing all the disgrace he could to dipping , did yet find occasion to acknowledge little lesse p. 69. notwithstanding saith he , I grant that Christ and the Eunuch were baptized in the River , and that such baptism of men , i. e. in rivers , specially in the hotter climates , hath been , is and may lawfully be used : though I confesse he gives this a pull in again , and very cleanly contradicts himself in the very next words , saying that there is no proof at all of dipping or plunging , but onely of washing in the River . O grosse , First , as if the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did signifie onely to wash in some other way , and not at all to wash by dipping . Secondly , as if ever any things , or persons , that are washed in Rivers are washed ordinarily otherwise then by dipping or plunging . Thirdly , as if he could properly be said to be washed in a river that was never in it , but was onely scrubd a little by the side of it . Or Fourthly as if wise persons would go into a river for no more then a little fourbishing their faces . Rantist . You talk of in the river , and into the River , but you heed not what Mr. Baxter saies in the present section that you are desired to speak to , he tells you the word into is not to be taken as if either John and Christ , or Philip and the Eunuch were at all in the water or descended into it , but unto it onely , it being below in the bottoms , and the countrey being montanous , in which respect they might well be said to go down into it : Mr. Cook also and Mr. Blake do both very elegantly answer your observation in that particular Mr. C. thus to A. R. viz. your collection from Philips going down into the water with the Eunuch , therefore they used dipping is as vain , must they not go down to the water where it was if they would use it ? would the water have come up to them in the chariot any sooner for sprinkling then for dipping ? of the same stamp is your inference from Mat. 3.16 . Mark 1.10 . from Christs ascending from the water , for as Christ was pleased to be baptized with water , so he was pleased to go where the water was viz. in the channel , where there was a descent , and from which there was an ascent , so that he must go down to , and come up from the water . Nay rather your conceit is here confuted , for if our blessed Saviour had been plunged of John into the water then it would rather have been said that John cast or plunged Christ into the water , and took him out of the water , but it is onely implyed that Christ went down to the water , and came up again from it . Mr. Blake thus to Mr. Blackwood viz. for your criticism of the ascending and descending , if you compare Acts 24.1.25.1 . also with your places quoted , you will see it nothing for your purpose , those phrases are used when men go to a place , or from a place , when they neither ascend upwards , neither descend downwards , Bishop Usher will furnish you with ten severall Scriptures , where the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Acts of the Apostles is used for no descent from a higher place to a lower , but onely a removing from place to place , though in this place we may believe there was some ascent and descent , waters being lower places , and when they went to the place of waters the channell in which the waters had their current , they may be fitly said to go into the water , howsoever one or two examples serve not your purpose , but a General concurrence of all examples : We have examples giving full evidence of a different practise , and nothing can be concluded from those examples . Baptist. O the wondrous wayes of wretchednesse , if not of wilful wilinesse that the wits of these men work in whereby to wave of the way of God from taking place among them ! how do they strive to keep it off as it were at staves end , not yielding it an inch lest it should get an ell , one brings one kind of furniture , wherewith to fight it , another another , yet altogether are but a bullrush , a flag , that shewes like sword and Rapier , but will scarce hold a push if put to it to the purpose : Mr. Blake he fetches furniture from Bishop Vsher that saies there are ten Scriptures in the acts where the words ascend and descend expresse no more then removing from one place to another , of which if those he alledges be two of the ten , or supernumerary it matters not , for if there were 10000 it would do him no right , and truth no wrong in this place , where it is believed by every of the three both himself and his two Colleagues , that here was going up and down from higher places to lower , therefore he may set that cypher some where else , or send it home again to the book whence he had it , and where perhaps it was of use , for here it stands void and serves for nothing . And as for their joint sneaping the words they went down into the water , and came out of the water into such a short sense as may serve your own curtaild , and cloudy conceptions of the matter , and exclude our construction that is most clear , and congruous , perverting and mincing it thus , viz. that they went down to the water , i. e. the channel where the water was , to which there was a descent , and ascended from the water ; or if it be allowed to be read ( as t is most properly rendred by the Translators ) into the water , yet the meaning of that word into must be no other then unto , I admire how men of such professed piety can convince their consciences to content with such home-spun coverings , such greivous glosses , pittiful put ofs , as they do in this case , I profess they might almost as good say that the heard of Swine , that Mat. 8.32 . are said to run down into the Sea , did but run down to the Sea , and no further , as to limit these Scriptures that relate the baptism of Christ and of the Eunuch , so as to force them to no further signification then this to , and unto , and from the water as if they went not into it at all . Rantist . Nay not so neither by your leave , for the words that follow , which relate that the Swine were choaked in the waters shew plain enough that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , though we will not allow it the sense of into Mark 1 9. must needs be Englished into here , and that the English word into , though we allow it to signifie no more then to or unto , Acts the 8. verse 38. yet signifyes that the Swine were really not at onely but in the waters , for how else , could they be choaked there ? Baptist. How ? why man t is as possible a creature may be choaked with water powring down his throat , yea and a little more possible then t is for any Creature to be said truly , not Synechdochically , to be baptized by sprinkling , or powring water only upon his face , and yet t is sure enough that this choaking of the Swine was otherwise then so , and no other then by an overwhelming in water , forasmuch as it is said they ran down INTO the Lake and were choaked Luke 8.33 . choaked IN the Waters Matth. 8.32 . IN the Sea Mark 5.13 . and yet t is as sure to me , who dare not suppose the spirit to speak nonsence , as they do in my mind , who say that this baptizing Act. 8.38 , 39. Matth. 3.16 . Mark 1.9 , 10. was , though with water also as their choaking was , ( and therefore Dr. Featley will get nothing by pleading for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to signify with ) yet not as truly in the water also , i. e. by an overwhelming therewith , forasmuch as t is said Act. 8 , 38 , 39. they went down both into the water both Philip and the Eunuch and he baptized [ Anglice dippt or overwhelmed ] or ( if you will have washed ) washed him by dipping , for as dipping and swilling is a true washing , so by washing , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Englished by it , is meant neither infusing nor sprinkling , but that washing onely that is by the way of dipping , and I testify to their faces , that would fain make a baptizm of rantism , that t is more easy to choak then to baptize a man without overwhelming But Mr. Cook foreseeing no doubt what absurdity must needs be committed in granting the words to be read as they be translated , viz. they went down into the water and ascended out of the water , and yet denying that they were at all in the water , and being sensible also surely how it might be noted as a piece of paultry and partiallity , to allow the sense of into to the preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Acts 8.38 . and yet so deeply to disown and deny that sence of into to the same preposition in Mark 1.9 . as he does , he is more wary then either Mr. Blake or Mr Baxter in that particular , and will not by any meanes read it as the other do viz. they went down into the water , nor yet as t is in the text they came up out of the water , but runs it over more smoothly in a phrase sutable to his own purpose , viz. they went down to the water , and came up from the water , but I hope he'el condescend freely to be corrected for the same fault , and with the same rod of reproof with which himself hath corrected others , or else his partiallity will so appear as to deny him to have any of that wisdome , which is from above Iames 3 the last : wherefore as he checks A. R. most sharply for offering to alter , and vary from the wisdome of interpreters , so as to English the preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by in , which they thought good to English with p. 12 , in these words , viz. I would demand of you whether you think that our Translators , and most or all others , who have englished it with knew not how to render the original in its proper signification as well as your self . So I must take the boldnesse , sith our Translators , and most or all others , but himself , do read Act. 8.38 . thus they went down both into the water and asc●nded out of the water , to demand of him in his own words to A. R. whether he think that our Translators , and most or all others , who english those passages by into the water , knew not how to render the originall in its proper signification as well as himself ? As for the other two , viz. Mr. Blake and Mr. Baxter they foreseeing no doub● it would be no safe , handsome , acceptable , nor advantagious way to take upon them , as they saw Mr. Cook did , to correct the Translators , and mend their constructions , they are more wary then Mr. Cook in that particular , and so ( thus incidit in Scillam , qui vult , &c. ) to decline the Rock of insolence , they drop into the gulf of nonsence , owning the original to be rightly rendred , and reading them according to that rendition , viz. into the water , and up out of the water , yet denying those phrases they descended into the water , and came up out of the water , , to sound out any more then Mr. Cook saies the Greek words do viz. to and from the water . But I must intreat those two Parallels in that opinion , to consider what imparalleld improprietie it is to expresse no more then going to the water side , and comming from it again by these phrases , viz. going down into the water , and comming out of the water for they imply necessarily a being in the water , and not only at it : he descended into hell is more then being at the brinks of hell , he descended into the lower parts of the Earth , is more then bare being on the superficies of the Earth , and so he descended into the water , is necessarily more then being at the side : the situation of the water below in the bottoms will not salve the absurdity of such expression , concerning being at the water only , and returning , for he descended to it , and ascended from it is enough for that , but to expresse that only by into it and out of it , is superfluous and superlative simplicity : whatsoever element , or place in any element we are said to go down into , and come up out of we w●re once in or else we are fowlly belied : had it been said of Philip and the Eunuch they went down both to the water , or into the bottoms , they descended into the vallies , where the water was , as Mr. Cook prates by a Periphrasis , and when they came up out of the valley , or bottom from the water , then it had shewed somwhat like the sense these men like best and long to have it in , but into the water , and out of the water expresse not only a bare being in the bottomes , where the water was but in the water also ; for whatsoever place or element is put after the prepositions into and out of is a place or element that the persons denominated to go into and out of were once really and truly in . Daniel was thrown into and taken up out of the Lyons den , does not that shew plainly enough that he was in it ? the Swine ran into the sea , were they not then in it ? I threw it into the fire ( saies Aaron of the molten image he made ) and there came out this calf , will any say that the mettals he made it of were only warmed at the fire side ? they went down both into the water , both Philip and the Eunuch and came up out of the water , Iesus was baptized of Iohn into Iordan , Mark 1.9 . and when he was baptized went straitway out of the water , Math. 3.16 . can any man say that these two persons Iesus and the Eunuch , of whom also Dr. Featley grants that they were baptized in the River , were never in it at all , but only wetted at the water side ? But that Philip and the Eunuch went into and were in the water , and not unto it and at it only , is evident by what I have hinted once already , viz. in that it is said they were come unto the water before , and therefore this must needs be into it , or else either the Spirit Tautologized , or they tautopoi●zed , and came unto the water twice over , but never into it at all . Two more odd conceits , and emblemes of the emptinesse of their apprehension in this point , two a piece I mean in Mr. Cook and Mr. Blake , I shall take notice of briefly in their fore-cited shuffles , and so passe on to the rest . First , how peartly doth Mr. Cook squitch up A. R. with a question or two as if he would catechise him in that which he hath yet need to be further chatechisd himself ? Must they not go down to the water ( saith he ) if they would use it ? would the water come up to them in the Chariot any sooner for sprinkling then for dipping ? In answer to which question , I intreat Mr. Cook to ask his conscience this question , whether if they had used the water only for sprinkling , there was such necessity of going down to it as he seemes to intimate , would not the water have come up to them in the Chariot sooner by far for sprinkling then for dipping ? yea verily both Philip and the Eunuch might have sat still in the Chariot and commanded water enough for sprinkling to be brought up to them thither in the hollow of the Chariot drivers hand , if there were no bigger a vessel to bear it in , but for dipping enough could never possibly be brought up into the Chariot at all . Secondly , he must , saies he of Christ , go down and come up from the water , but here is not the least hint that John doused Christ over head , or under water , nay rather that conceit of yours , saith he to A. R. is here confuted , for if our blessed Saviour had been plunged of John into the water , then it would rather have been said that John cast or plunged Christ into the water , and took him out of the water , but it is only implied that Christ went down unto the water and came up again from it . O how egregiously , how shamefully doth this man forget , and utter himself as if his senses were sodden into Trapizuntius his temper ! I would therfore ask him one or two questions viz. First : whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth at all signifie to douse over head , or under water , or to plunge into water yea or no ? if not ( but I suppose he will not deny it so to do , though he denies it to signifie onely plunging ) then I would have him to go to school again to the Lexicons which will teach him that it mainly signifies mergo , immergo , submergo , and if lavo , a bluo it is such an ab●u●ion as is made immergendo , but if it doth signifie to plunge dip or douse under water , or overwhelm at all , and I dare say he and every one else shall find it for all lavo , quod fit immergendo , to signifie a swilling in water altogether ▪ then I advise him to be think himself , for I think he was asleep when he wrote this passage , that there is at least some little hint that Iohn plunged Christ into the water , when it s said Christ was baptized alias , plunged , dipt of Iohn into Iordan , or washt in Iordan ▪ sith that pleases himself , unless he put a difference between the active and the passive and will not yield it to be all one , that Iohn baptized Christ , and Christ was baptized of Iohn , but though it be said Christ was baptized i. e. plunged of Iohn into Iordan , overwhelmed in Iordan , and that he came out of the water , which is a shrewd sign that Iohn did not keep him there , yet this is not plain and significant enough for him it seems unlesse he may have the framing of the spirits speech another way , that is no whit plainer then the other neither , viz. that Iohn cast or plunged Christ into the water , and took him out of the water , unlesse it may be said just so all that is said , which yet is the same with that he would have to be said , implies no more then that Christ went down unto the water and and came up again from it , without being baptized , so belike : how A. Rs. opinion that Iohn doused Christ under water , which is also mine , and the very plainest expression the original can be read in , is confuted by those texts Mat. 3.16 . Mark. 1.9.10 . I can no more conceive , then I can conceive that this expression viz. Philip and the Eunuch went down both into the water , and he baptized him , is a confutation of him that supposes the Eunuch to be baptized at all , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are Mr. Cooks marginals wherby he would have us learn t is like from the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that their ascension was but from the water , but I muse why he would not set down the words of the other Scripture , Act. the 8.39 . which expounds this , and where t is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is in latin ex , and englished most naturally out of . The second thing more observable in Mr. Blakes businesse runs thus , First , saith he , howsoever one or two examples serve not your purpose , but a general concurrence of all examples . See how Mr. Bls. heart misgives him , and well nigh wavers within , whether he had not best yield us these two examples , for all his tugging for them before , into our cause , and therefore now falls , for fear these two will side against him , to serve himself against them another way , i. e. by denying that the testimony of the spirit in these two examples , is of any validity to us without a concurrence of all examples : To which I say , had Mr. Blake but one half inch of an example in the new testament of baby baptism how much he would make of it we may see by his cunning counterfeit examples for that thing out of scriptures , that in truth are not onely far from exemplifying such a thing , as the housholds he makes use of are , but also clear examples to the contrary , as the non-baptizing of those very infants that were brought to Christ , and the non-baptizing of those very infants with their parents Act. the 2. to whose parents , and their children to , on the same termes of repentance when at years , the promise is there made : both which Scriptures he wrests into his turne , yea verily , and had he but one true single example of any one infant baptized in all that word , we should lay down to him , and never open our mouthes more against infant baptism : yet if these two examples do prove for us , it seemes they shall not be heeded , whilst against them , unlesse there be a general concurrence of all examples . Wherefore secondly , I tell him of a truth that though me thinks the single example of the Lord Iesus might content him , and of the Eunuch , for can he shew a better example then these ? yet there 's as general a concurrence of all examples in this particular , as there is of the example of any one thing , that is exemplified in the Scriptures : all Ierusalem , all Iudea , and the Region about Iordan were baptized i. e. dipt of Iohn in Iordan confessing their sins , Christ dipt of Iohn into Iordan , the Eunuch going into the water and there baptized , baptizing in Aenon because much water , and indeed the very word baptize makes them all examples of our practise , while it signifies obruo , submergo . Secondly saies he , we have examples giving full evidence of a different practise , and nothing can be concluded for you from these examples of yours . Mr. Bls. examples it seems for his different practise must conclude for him , but our examples though never so clear must conclude nothing for us , ipse dixit Mr. Bl. hath forbidden them so to do , and therefore we must sign ne plus ultra here , and urge our examples no more , wherefore I le cease . Onely secondly , I hope he will give me leave to ask him what different practise it is he meanes , of which he hath examples giving full evidence against ours , and if it be either baptism of infants , or Rantism of infants , or powring water on infants , or washing infants any other way , or dispensig Christs ordinance of baptism to men or women in any other way then in the way of dipping , or washing by dipping , which baptizo signifies , I le promise him faithfully that upon his giving us any one example that gives full evidence of it , or any other kind of full evidence of it besides that of example , any of which he is far from giving in any thing that was ever pen'd by him yet , I shall yield and become his disciple , and follow him as far as I find him following Christ in that or any thing else , and that for ever : till then he must excuse me if in love to his soul I seriously beseech him to search and try his wayes and turn in truth to that truth of the Lord Iesus he yet tramples on . Rantist . There is example given you enough against your way by Mr. Blake , Mr. Baxter and Mr. Cook too of baptizing otherwise then by dipping , in the Iailor , whom they all instance in either expressely , or implicitly , First Mr. Baxter saies in that section of his which you have not yet fully spoke to , that the Iailor was baptized in the night in his house , and therefore not likely over head in that Countrey where water was so scarce , and to this agree some words of Mr. Blake and Mr. Cook concurrent in matter though different in form : we read saith Mr. Cook p. 16. of multitudes baptized even 3000 in Ierusalem without mention of going to the Rivers , and of whole families without mention of going to the waters , or fetching store of waters , it is like the waters they had within doors at midnight sufficed Acts 2.41 . Acts 16.15.33 . and saith Mr. Blake p. 10. sometimes baptism was administred where water for dipping was not to be had , and though the Eunuch comming to a river saith here is water , what hindred that I should be dipped ? yet there is little probability that Paul could say so in Judas's house in streight street in Damascus , nor the Iailor in his prison in Philippi : you say that baptism was ordinarily in rivers , where there were many waters , but sure there were neither many waters , nor rivers in these mens dwellings , and as sure they went not out in the night unto any such places , yet were they baptized . Baptist. Are these your Examples of baptizing otherwaies then by dipping ? certainly unlesse these three men were every one of them either shamefully slighthy in their searches , or willingly ignorant , or smitten with blindnesse , and given up in some measure at least , for their not imbracing this plain easie truth of dipping , in the love thereof , to deep dotage and stronge delusion , they could never believe , much lesse print such palpable untruths , absolute absurdities , and cleer self confutations , as are unavoidably to be seen by him that reads with understanding these parcells they have published to the eye of all men . See first how Mr. Cook contradicts himself in that clause , we read of great multitudes baptized even three thousand in Ierusalem without mention of going to the Rivers . To say nothing of the invalidity of this piece to his purpose , nor needlessenesse of the Scriptures mentioning the particular place where every one was baptized , for what if that be not specified every where where baptism is talked on , least the volume should swell , is it not as much as to say they were dipped in that it is said they were baptized , i. e. submersi , obruti , abluti immergendo , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies mainly , I suppose I may safely say only such washing as is by dousing , dipping or swilling , specially since in places enough it is said they were baptized in Rivers , and places of much water : but to say nothing I say of that , mark how this clause of Mr. Cook clashes with another of his within a matter of ten lines upwards from it , for there giving other reasons , then that of dipping , why Iohn chose to baptize in Rivers and running waters , among others he gives this as a speciall one , viz. Because of the multitudes that were baptized , especially saith he , seeing there came such huge multitudes to him to be baptized , and yet here were great multitudes baptized even no lesse then 3000 and yet sith there is no mention of the place where , which by Mr. Cooks own reason , if it be a reason , must be a place of running waters , and streams that many might be imploied at once in baptizing along the river , for the more speedy dispatch , with so great multitudes , therefore these belike went not out to the rivers , though yet there 's no more mentioned that they did not , then that they did . There were thousands of converts Act. the 4. the 4. of the matter of whose baptism there is no more mentioned then of the manner of it , and yet there is ground enough to believe they were all baptized , as well as the rest , yea Mr. Blake believes it , and in the same way as the rest whose baptism with the manner of it is expressed , for why should others be baptized in rivers because they were multitudes , and yet these multitudes be exempted from that and be dispached with so small a matter as sprinkling ? therefore the not mentioning t was done , is an argument as good as nothing ; and whereas he saies there is no mentioning of fetching in great store of waters , t is true , that we never read at all of water fetcht to the persons , but of persons going to the water we do , though he saies we do not , for even Lydia her self and her family , which is no other then his own instance , were gone out to a river side to hear Paul preach , where being converted they were baptized , that being the wonted place of preaching and praying no doubt in order to the conveniency of baptizing , before ever the Apostles were so much as invited to her house . Secondly , of this stamp also is Mr. Blakes conceit concerning the baptism of Paul , who because the particular place or sourse of water wherein he was baptized is not expressed , imagins that he must needs be baptized within doors , and no where else , and so consequently not by dipping , but some other way , whereas there is neither necessity nor probability of his being so , but rather evidence if not from the very place , yet at least from what Mr. Blake saies that it was otherwise ; For First , it seemes to me that Paul was not to be baptized within , but to go some where or other to the dispatching of that businesse , wherefore else should Ananias rub him up to it as he doth in such wise as this , and now why tariest thou ? arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins &c. Which as it Argues it was a service Paul was tardy to , and I know no mans flesh forward to it further then by faith it is overpowred , specially in such a weak case as Paul it seemes was in at that present , so it was as who should say , why art thou so undisposed to thy duty in that particular , make hast , and linger not longer about it , but come away and be baptized : now had aspersion or infusion been only the work , Paul could not have bin so backward as to need such sharp exsuscitation , when once convinced , for there 's no such great unpleasantness to the flesh , as to engender any aversenesse unto that , but that Paul was more tardy then he should have been ( and why he should be so I know not if among the other impediments , at least he was not sensible of some tediousnesse in the service ) was uttered in a publique exercise once from that very text Acts. 22.16 . by a friend of yours , and mine now deceased , at his sprinkling one of mine own children , in which Sermon the doctrine was this ( and a good doctrine it was , and very truly grounded upon the Example of Pauls dulnesse in that Scripture , and further cleered by Lots loitering in Sodom ) viz. That by reason partly of the remainder of corruption in the best , presenting evill when they should do Good , and partly the great grand enemy of our salvation Satan , opposing himself to all good , the best that have even renounced their vile life , have an indisposition to holy duties , and have need of excitation and stirring up . Again had he not either been to be baptized within by dipping ▪ or been to receive within an aspersion or infusion upon his face only he need not to have bin bid to arise , or stand up in order to either of these , so much as from the present posture he was in , for if he were then sitting , face rantism might have been done as well , and if he were lying down ( which in his then case is the more likely of the two ) much better then in a standing posture , in which t is not so easie to dispence a pouring upon the face , least pouring so little as you do it prove rather a Rantism then a baptism , or pouring so much as the baptizer should do on the disciple , if he will needs do it by pouring i. e. till he hath buried him in baptism , or wholly covered him with water , in resemblance of the spiritual , he make way for his bodily buriall in the earth also . Whereas therefore Mr. Blak● saies thus , viz. that though the Eunuch coming to the River might saie here 's wa●er what hinders why I should not be dipped , yet there is little probability that Paul could say so in Iudas his house in straight street in Damascus , or the Iaylor at his Prison in Phillippi , I say it is very likely it was so indeed , that they had not any Ponds or Rivers in their houses , to dip in , but will it follow therefore that they were baptized in the house without dipping ? no such matter by Mr. Bls. favour , but rather that sith there was not water enough for their dipping within doors , as there was for the Eunuchs dipping without , therefore they went out to some water or other that they might be baptized , i. e. dipped conveniently , as the Eunuch was , and that may possibly not be farre , for many a one that hath not brooks nor ponds in their houses , yet have them oft not far from their doors , and that Iudas had not so who can tell ? but whether he had or no , the matter is not great , sith he lived not far from much water however whilest he was living in Damascus , for were not Abana and Parphar Rivers of Damascus though not for Namans disease , yet for dipping full as good as Iordan it self , and all other waters of Israel . Thirdly , See how miserably Mr. Baxter is mistaken , he would make men believe , if they would be such Idiots , as to take his single word for it , against the expresse word of God , that in the Countrey of the Iaylor water was so scarce that he could not be dipped over head , whereas ( oh that Mr. Baxter would see how the Lord hath left him to discover his too hasty galloping over the Sripture ) it is related that a River ●an just by the same City of Phillippi where he dwelt , even that , by the side of which Paul preached , and prayer was wont to be made , where also Lidy 1 , and her houshold were converted and baptized , and all this no further off then in the very same chapter , where the Iaylors baptism is spoken of viz. Acts 16.13 , 14 , 15. I perceive this scarcity of water is made a mighty Argument among you against dipping , some saying that water for dipping was not to be had in the houses of the disciples that were baptized , therefore they received no more then some aspersion ▪ or infusion within , some speaking as though water for dipping were not to be had in whole Cities and Countreys where the disciples dwelt , thus doth not onely Mr. Baxter , who denies a sufficiencie of water for dipping over head to be in that Country where the Jaylor dwelt , but also Senior Mr. Simpson one of you my Ashford opposers , who in a letter under his hand to a neighbor of his ( much of which is partim directe & verbatim partim oblique & collateraliter , out of Mr. Blake , so that it stands or falls in him , and of the rest that is not translated thence into his turn , some already is , and some that is not yet , is to be spoken to as I go along ) tells us that there was not any water in Jerusalem wherein so many as were there baptized , in so short a time , at that time of the year when water was more scanty , could possibly have been dipped . What a strange conceit is this ? what not water enough in nor yet about all Ierusalem to dipp a man over head in ? for sith he saies not so many , the same water course I hope that one can be dipped in , may also serve to dipp a thousand ; shall we think that in the greatest drought that could happen all those brooks the Scriptures mentions viz. Cedron and Siloam , and the fountain of Gyhon , and the Conduit of the upper pool , which ran with several streams , and were at one place all coincident with Cedron , were dryed up so that not a place could be found of any competent depth for men to dip in ? But perhaps what Mr. Baxter saies concerning Aenon upon the report of travellers viz. that even the River Aenon it self where Iohn baptized because there was much water , is found to be a small brook , that a man may almost step over , or as I find it expressed to me in a letter to a neer and deer friend of mine , upon the credit of eye witnesse historians , Aenon was but a small purl scarcely knee deep at the deepest , so Mr. Simpson may say , but it is on his own head if he do , concerning these brooks , that were about Ierusalem , to all which I shall for brevities sake dispatch this answer here now I am about it . And first I intreat Mr. Simpson to consider that this serves not his turn howe-ever , if Cedron and Siloam , and the rest that were without the City , and the stream also that ran through the City , from the fountain of the old pool into Cedron , should be all such as Aenon is supposed to be , sith the fishpool Bethesda , at which lay a great multitude of impotents , and into which one amongst the rest desired to be put , or cast ( for the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) but could not , was both deeper and broader then so , and convenient for many to dip in at once , for if we may credit Bethesda it self , the very name instructs us in no lesse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being in english no other then the house of flowing down , so called for the concurrence , and confluence of many waters thereinto , see Calvin upon the place , who tells you that it was a pool he thinks , into which water did flow down continually , through either channels or pipes , that the Priests ( for it was neer the Temple ) might as well be furnisht with water for their sacrifices , as the people were with sacrifices themselves in the sheep market wherein it was ; others think , and as I take it Beza in his Anotations , that it was a pool at which cattel drank , and in which they used to be plunged ; whereof saith he there could not but be great store in Ierusalem : so much may well serve without any more to salve the sore eyes of Mr. Simpson . As for Mr. Baxter I le bate him his almost , and yet he will not get much by the matter , for as I have seen others baptized by totall dipping in the like , so was I seen to be baptized my self in a place of so little latitude , that an active man might make shift to step over , not almost but altogether , in which yet there is water enough left behind to baptize a thousand , if not a million more in the same manner , and so , not to say how possible it is , if not a thousand to one that Aenons eye witnesses never sounded Aenons depth in all places , nor secondly how possibly a brook might be much swerved up since then , & somwhat shallowed in so many Generations , nor thirdly how possible it is to deepen the shallowest stream that is very easily in order to such a purpose , for I have seen ancle deep streams so ordered as I speak of , more then once or twice for a need , though that Aenon had need to be made deeper in those places , where Iohn did baptize , may be twenty times told by some Travellers , that love to hear themselves talk , before I shall believe it once ; Not to say any thing I say of these , let Aenon be but knee deep if you will , experience hath so taught the expedience of knee deep to dip in to my self , and other Baptizers that I know , that as we have dipt persons oft where it hath not bin so deep , so , except in such a channel where we cannot well avoid it , we choose now not to go in much deeper . See Fourthly how all your three Worthies Mr. Blake , Mr. Baxter and Mr. Cook do deceive you , as being indeed deceived themselves , and that in a manner so plain that none but Blind Seers can look beside it , for though each of the three were alone in each of those other errors , which they severally utter in your last joint quotation , and confident commendation of them , yet ( wo is me may England say that my leaders are so mifled ) the whole Trinity of them is at unity , but against all verity in this , even in the very thing in which principally you would have us mind them , for whereas , as an instance that baptism was not by dipping , they all alledge that the Iailor was baptized at midnight in his house , and therefore probably not in such a way as dipping , that he was baptized about midnight is true enough , but that he was baptized in his house , is so contrary to truth , that a very child may find the falsenesse of that assertion , for howbeit Mr. Cook saies plain-ly , it s like the waters they had within doores at midnight sufficed , and Mr. Baxter more plain-ly , that the Iailor was baptized in the night in his house , and Mr. Blake most plain-ly , t is sure there was not many waters nor rivers in the Iailors dwelling , and it is as sure that they i. e. the Iailor and the Apostles went not out in the night to any such places as were fit to dip in , yet what saith the word in plain truth ? no lesse then this , that the Iailor after he was baptized brought them into his house and set meat before them , and rejoiced : for it is said first , that upon the earth-quake , and Pauls crying out to him , that he should do himself no harm , the Iailor hasted into Paul and Silas and brought them out , secondly that they upon his then inquiry told him what he should do to be saved , and preached the word to him and all his , whereupon in this intertime , i. e. between the time of the Iailors bringing them out , and his bringing them in again , he took them and washed their stripes , and was baptized he and all his straightwav . Thirdly , that when he had brought them into his house , which words compared with verse the 30. where it is said he brought them out , shew clearly that he , and his were with them still without hearing the word , washing them , and submitting to be baptized i. e. immergendo washed of them , he made them eat , and rejoiced : now what man , but one minded to overlook what likes him not , can chuse but see this to the confutation of these three mens opinions ? which I doubt because it is theirs more then any thing else , may be the opinion of 3000 : that the Iailor first brought them out , and then washed their stripes , and was baptized , and then brought them in , and rejoiced with them is clear . Rantist . You have spoke long enough to little purpose to this , for I am not yet of your mind ; pray let us see what you will say to those worthy mens writings , in disproof of the proofs that you have brought . Baptist. I come then to consider what is said by either any , or all of these three repugnants in exception against what is said by us for the way of dipping , having spoken already to the first as you desire in its several parts : The next exception I find Mr. Baxter makes against what we say is this , the word signifies saith he , to wash as well as to dip , and so is taken when applied to other things as Mar. the 7.4.8 . and herein he sums up in short the whole mind of Mr. Cook and Mr. Blake also in this matter , who say viz. Mr. Blake p. the 4. 5. to Mr. Blackwood , that Scapula saies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to dip , to drown , and sometimes to wash , the Septuagint use the words baptizing , and washing promiscuously ; Mr. Cook p. 11. to A. R. much what the very same viz. that baptism signifies washing , and p. 13. quoting the same Scripture Mark the 7. here you have saith he , the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to wash . To all which I answer , but briefly , having toucht at this before , who doubts of this that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to wash ? how is it possible that it should not signifie washing so long as it signifies dipping , dipping being no other then a kind of washing ? what ever word signifies properly , and primarily ( as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth ) to dip , drown , plunge in , overwhelm with , put under water , must needs be supposed secondarily , consequently , and even thereupon to signifie washing , neither does it signifie sometimes onely to wash , as Mr. Blake observes out of Scapula , but it alwayes signifies to wash , there being no dipping , but signifies a washing , dipping being not a dipping onely , but necessarily a washing also ; wherefore very of● baptizing and washing are , and well may be ; promiscuously used each for the other , but what will the men make of all this , that because baptism signifies a kind of washing viz. the washing of its own kind , x or such a washing as dipping , plunging , or swilling is , therefore it signifies all manner of washing : a kind of washing it ever did , but all kind of washing it never did yet signifie since the world stood : a washing by immersion and submersion is the sense on t , a washing by infusion is not , but as for your washing by bare aspersion so far is it from being the true sense of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that it is no kind of washing at all , yea if you will go critically to work ( as Mr. Blake would have us ) about 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , between which yet there is no such difference , as he imagines , and keep close to the signification of the words , both your petty powring , and your spoil-all sprinkling will be discarded so far from the name of baptizing , that they will not be found to meet it half way , nor on a true account to amount to so much as the name of washing , for that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies originally to dip , plunge or overwhelm , and therefore consequently to wash , we deny not , that being indeed not onely a way , but also the most effectual and usual way of washing : therefore 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is sometimes promiscuously used with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , both which originally signifie washing , of what kind soever , whether that which is by dipping in water , or rubbing water upon the subject , when they are each applied unto the other , but as for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the one signifies to powre out onely , the other to sprinkle onely , but neither this nor that alone , and abstract from some other concurrent action , as rubbing the water on that 's so applied ( which was never done at any Rantizing that ever I saw ) doth yet signifie so much as any kind of washing whatsoever : therefore though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendred not onely by mergo , submergo to dip or plunge over head and ears , but also by lavo , abluo to wash clense or wash away , and very fi●ly sith baptizing or dipping is really and truly such a washing , yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendred effundo to powre out and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by aspergo , perfundo , irroro , to sprinkle or moisten , as it were with a small dew , but neither of them by lavo , abluo , nor do they signifie such a thing as to wash , nor are they such a thing as washing in any wise , so far are they therefore from bearing the name of baptism , that you may as well render baptizing by rantizing , and say to baptize is to sprinkle , which is a thing that all men in the world cannot shew to be so much as a remote sense of the greek word baptize , as render rantizing by baptizing , that is to say that to sprinkle is to baptize , which likewise can never be shewen to be so much as a remote sense of the word Rantize : if therefore 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 come not so neer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as to be adem with it in tertio to be latin● with it into lavo , or to be englisht with it so much as by the name of washing , which is but a secondary sense of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , how will you ever reach your rantism into the name of baptism it self , whose prime signification is submergo i. e. to overwhelm , out of which prime signification that it should be used continually , as you say the spirit uses it in Scripture , where all along you strain a point to have it englisht washing , and never overwhelming at all ( for pray where shall it be englisht by the term of overwhelming ? just no where by your good will ) is a piece of simple slipslop to utter . Rantist . But Mr. Blake tells you another tale that I believe will make you eat these words you last declared , for whereas you talk so much of dippings being the prime signification of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 what then ? he p. 2. saies in way of answer to that , that there is nothing more ordinary then to have words used out of their prime signification . Baptist. Nothing more ordinary then to have words out of their prime signification ? what a strange extraordinary expression is that ? I dare undertake to shew him something more otdinary then that , and venture to avouch that it is more ordinary to have words used in their prime signification , then out of it , or else I know not how we should handsomely understand one another in any tongue : for howbeit there is now and then a word figuratized besides its proper meaning , yet that a secondary , borrowed , bastard , forraign sense should carry words so quite away from their own proper , direct , prime , proxime , native signification that we must take them in no sense , no not in their genuine sense more ordinarily , then in those secondary senses , is such a peece of senslesse , as will hardly enter into the center of my understanding while I have one , yet so do you dote upon the farre fetcht senses of words , when they onely , though never so untowardly too , may be wrested in ●o serve your turn , that nothing is more ordinary among your selves indeed in such a case , then to shut out the aptest , the amplest acceptions altogether , and force the first senses from having to do at all with those words whose own , whose plainest , whose neerest , whose likeliest , whose chiefest , properest senses they are : and on this wise do you deal with the truest sense and signification of this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which because it signifies sometimes onely , as Mr. Blake observes ( which is however argumentum ad homin●m ) though I grant it signifies ever , yet onely secondarily to w●sh , therefore , if you may have the vote of it , it must never signifie any thing else , and never be interpreted by its prime signification at all , it signifies i. e. usually , and for the most part and primarily ( for who can take Mr Blake as meaning otherwise ) to dip or drown &c. and sometimes , quoth he out of Scapula , to wash , but if I should ask Mr. Blake how often he would give it leave throughout the whole new testament to be taken in that sense , which his word sometimes annexed to the sense of washing shewes he takes to be the most usual and common sense of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 viz. to dip , plunge , or overwhelm , I am afraid he will change his note , and say it signi●ies alvvayes to vvash , and not allovv the sense of it to dip , or plunge so much as sometimes , no not yet so much as once throughout the gospel : yea I demand of him vvhere he dare give vvay to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be construed in its prime sense , i. e. to dip , overvvhelm , or in vvhat one place he vvill be pleased to let us give it any other then the secondary , that onely sometime signification of vvashing ? I doubt it must be contented for him , and all the Rantists to be vvithout its neerest , to be stript of its plainest , to be banisht and forct for ever from bearing its truest sense , in all places of the book of God unlesse they may be forc't once to be vvithout their vvills , for in all the Scripture that I knovv of , where the vvord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is placed , it is thus displaced from its principall signification by them , so that all our desires to them on its behalf that it may sometimes at least be granted the sense of dipping shall in no vvise prevail for it● ovvn sense to be allovved it : I remember but these places at present vvhere the vvord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used , vvhere vvater baptism of persons is spoken of viz. Mat. 3.6.11.13.14.16.28.19 . Mark 14.5.8.9.10 . and the 16.26 . Luke 3.7.12.16.21 . Luke 7.29.30 . Iohn 1. ●5 . 26.28 . and the 3.22.23.26 . and the 4.1.2 . Act. 1.5 . and the 2.38.41 . and the 8.12.13 16.36.38.39 . and the 9.18 . and the 16.15.33 . and the 18.8 . and the 22.16 . Rom. 6.3.4 . 1 Cor. 1.13.14.15.16.17 . Gal. 3 : 27. Col. 2.12 . in vvhich of all these places dare they allovv us the prime signification of the vvord ? not so much as one I dare say , yet Scapula quotes but tvvo places viz. Mark 7. Luke 11. vvherein it is taken to vvash , vve vvould be contented to allovv them that not sometimes onely , as they talk of , but that alvvayes it shall signifie to vvash , for dipping indeed being a chief kind of vvashing it cannot be rationally gainsayed , onely ( proh dolor ) vve must not once english it dipping or overvvhelming , no not by any meanes in the world . But Sirs , though you are so accustomed to that trick , so that it is to be feared you will be hardly brought off it viz. to have nothing more ordinary among you , then to carry vvords , and specially the vvord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 clearly , and that not sometimes onely , but continually besides its prime sense of dipping , into its farre off sense of vvashing , and into its non-sense of sprinkling ( for it signifies no such thing as that ) yet vve have no such custome , nor the Churches of God , but to take vvords ordinarily in the sense vvhich they most properly bear . Rantist . But Mr. Blake denies dousing over head to be the prime signification of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and tells you p. 3. that the great Criticks in the Greek tongue will not allow you your sence to douse over head and years , to be the prime , distingishing between 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , making the Latter to bear your sense , the former to be a dipping more light and overly , as Luke the 16. and the 24. it is evidently used . Baptist. O that 's another matter he should have said so then at first , for because he talked that words are used out of their prime signification , and among the rest this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for the sake of which he saies the other , out of its p●ime signification of dipping , I took it for granted ( and so I might well , for he allowes it to signifie washing in Scripture , and what sense is it that he pleads against by that speech , viz. that words are oft used out of their prime significations ? ) I took it I say for granted , and seriously a grant it is if he well examine it , that he took dipping , or overwhelming to be the prime sense of baptism , unlesse almost a page of of his be pennd in vain , and dares he now deny it ? that is worse then all the rest : but I wonder what is if that be not the prime ? for I am sure the prime is not to wash : it is ( quoth he ) a dipping more light and overly then so . To which I say let the persons baptizing dip the persons baptized as lightly and overly as they will so they dipp them , and not some of them barely , for then I know they must do it underly also , for what man is truly to be baptized , that man is to be put under water , not a part of him only , as also what part of a man lesse or greater , yea if it be but the tip of the finger , that he instances in as an overt dipping , is truly to be dipped , must not be dipped so overly as that it is not dipped underly , I mean put truly under water , for else it is not properly a dipping of that part : but I would I could hear some of those Criticks ( for he mentions not one of them ) that distinguish him so besides the way of God by their fair false glosses upon the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , making 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 only to signify that we stand for i. e. a total overwhelming , and baptizing no more then some dribling kind of darting some part of the subject under water , for verily they are but crackt braind Criticks to me , if the Lexicons be at all to be heeded : for howbeit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signify the same that we saie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies , viz. dipping or being under water , and it may be more deeply then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for that is as it were Imum petere to go down to the very bottom , yet neither doth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signify any lesse then we say , and that primarily also , viz. at least to put under and overwhelm with water , which is enough for us , or else it would never be rendred by obruo ond submergo , which words if they do not as truly expresse as total a covering with water as subeo , ingredior , which are the senses by which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendred then I have as much sense in my heel as my head ; but if those Criticks think this no right rendition , let them do the world that right as to take upon them to correct those Errata's in the Lexicons that are extant , and to turn Lexicographers themselves . The third exception of Mr. Baxter against what hath been before said in proof of dippping is this , viz. The thing signifyed is set forth by the phrase of washing on sprinkling and the sign need not exceed the thing signifyed . And in this fashion argue both Mr. Blake , and Mr. Cook especially , out of whose larger drivings home of this head , a man that hath but half an eye may see Mr. Baxter borrowed most of that little he saies in exception against what we say for dipping ; abridging two or three pages of Mr. Cook , viz. page 19 , 20 , 21. into these two or three lines of his , and coting the same Scriptures , and no other , and that in the self same order , and no other , then Mr. Cooke doth , viz. the 1 Cor. 6.11 . Tit. 3.5 . Heb. 10.22 . Isa. 4.4.3 . Ioel 2.28 . Ezek. 36.26 . 1 Pet. 1.2 . Heb. 12.24 . To which I say it is true , some but not all the things signified , nor yet that which is most immediately signified , and therefore mainly to be resembled , are set forth by the phrase of washing , pouring and sprinkling , and it is as true that the sign need not exceed the thing signified , but the sign need be adaequate to the thing signified , and so is not any kind of washing , but that of dipping under water , nor doth that exceed the thing signified , for that which is the main matter , the signandum or the radical matter to all the rest , is the death , burial and resurrection of Christ , and ours spiritually with him , which things are no way Analogized in sprinkling and pouring , but onely by a burial under water , and bringing up again , which yet are the only things that these three men plead to have left unsignifyed , and unrepresented in the sign , but we must have them all not only signified , but also , as much as may be , lively pictured out in the sign of baptism , this cannot be by infusion or aspersion , for they are too narrow to resemble all , but they may be and are in submersion and immersion , for these are neither too narrow , nor too wide , but just adaequately resembling the signata , there must be a sufficiency in the sign to the end saies Mr. Cook p. 20 namely to represent the spirituall grace , though yet p. 17. he knew not any word of God , wherein this representation is necessarily either expressed or implied . Now the whole spiritual grace being the death , burial and resurrection of Christ , together with all the benefits thereof , viz. the washing of our souls from guilt as to justification , from filth as to sanctification , as by the blood of Christ sprinkled and his spirit poured , respect must be had that , as neer as can be , all these must be represented , and that the Elements and actions be neither so overmuch , as may take off the heart from the spiritual to the Corporal thing , as we might easily do if we should do more then dipp under , and raise up , or should hold so long under water as almost to suffocate the subject , nor yet so little , as Mr. Cook saies well , as not clearly to represent the spiritual grace the whole spiritual grace being therfore all these things forenamed , care must be had that they be all Analogized , as far as it is possible , and ●specially the main , which is fundamental to all the rest , viz. Christs death , burial and resurrection ; for this however ought to be done , nor ought the other altogether to be left undone , but if sprinkling be the way then the main thing is left undone , for there is no representation of Christs death , buriall and resurrection . Rantist . And if Totall Dipping be the way , then many things are left undone , for there is no representation of the blood of sprinkling , and the Spirits powring . Baptist. Not so neither with your leave , for howbeit in bare infusion , and aspersion death , burial and resurrection are excluded , yet in submersion and emersion , both pouring and sprinkling are concluded , the greater wettings containing in , and under them the lesse , but the lesse no way reaching to the other . Moreover that remission of sins by the blood of Christ sprinkled is represented sufficiently in emersion , as well as in aspersion , not so the death , burial and resurrection in Aspersion consult a learned Author for this , that was for asspersion as well as your selves , though I believe he saw submersion to be the better way , i. e. Bucan , who in page 668. as I have hinted above saies thus , viz. Illa in aquam Mersio , sive aspersio perspicue denotat Rantismon , id est , aspersionem sanguinis Christi in peccatorum remissionem , & justitiae imputationem ; mora autem &c. So that we see he counted submersion , though it exceed that one part of the thing signified , viz. Christs blood sprinkled , yet to signify , & represent that vertually as well as other things ; I conclude therefore notwithstanding any exceptions that Either Mr Ba. Mr. Cook or Mr. Blake hath put in hitherto against what hath been said by us in proof that baptism was by dipping in the primitive time , that that was the way of baptism then . Rantist . But Mr. Blake hath many more Arguments then those you have yet spoken to whereby he cleerly evinces it , that baptism was not only by dipping then : I hope we shall have your answer to them too , and the rather because they are of some weight , and therefore you are the more willing to slip by them : First ( saith he ) if the way of baptism were only dipping , then the Baptizer must put the baptized over head in the water , and after a space receive them up again , otherwise he could not say in your sense I baptize thee , but we read of no such thing any where in Scripture , we find Christ and the Eunuch going to the water and coming thence , but neither John nor Philip putting them into the water or taking them from thence p. 8. Baptist. I strange that Mr. Blake should grant as he doth above p. 6. that Philip and the Eunuch are fitly said to go into the water , and yet say so shortly after , we find no more then their going to the water , and from it again ; how fitly can they be said to go into the water and out of it , that go but to and from it I have shewed already , but t is more strange to me that he should so far forget himself , as to say we read of no such thing in Scripture as of Iohn and Phillips putting Christ and the Eunuch into the water , or taking them from thence , for we read plainly that Christ was baptized of Iohn into Iordan , and in Iordan , and we read that Philip and the Eunuch went down both into the water , and Philip baptized him , and that Christ came up out of the water , and that Philip and the Eunuch came up out of the water , if all this be not partly an expression , partly an implication of the same thing that Mr. Blake saies we no where read of , then I shall never trust my spectacles more , for what shall we think was done to Christ by Iohn when it is said he was baptized by him into Iordan , if he was not dipped , overwhelmed put under the water ? was he sprinkled into Iordan ? and what shall we think Philip did to the Eunuch when it is said he baptized him , after they were both gone down into the water , if he did not put him under it ? did he no more then sprinkle , or pour a few drops of water on him ? either of those might have been done as easily , and more if they had never gone into the water , yea if they had never went so much as to the water at all ; and when it is said of Christ and the Eunuch that they came up out of the water , is it not necessarily implyed ( and therefore what need it be expressed ) that Iohn and Philip , who put them under the water did take them up again after a space , and not hold them alwaies under it ? for if they had , how they could have come up out of it I know not . Had Mr. Blake therefore more believed the Scripture , then he did Mr. Cook , from whom he borrowed this Argument ( and lent it again to Mr. Simpson of Bethersden , or else Mr. Simpson stole it , for without any cotation of Mr. Blake he hath it word for word in that forenamed Letter of his , which he desired should be communicated ) he would not have transpenn'd Mr. Cooks matter , who saies p. 16. of his there is not the lest hint that John doused , cast or plunged Christ into the water , and took him out of the water , into another phrase viz. we read of no such thing any where in Scripture that John and Philip put Christ and the Eunuch into the water , and took them up again , but it is your fashion to follow by implicit faith , and to take up things at a venture by tradition one from another as the people do from you . Rantist . Now you talk of dipping under water , and taking up thence again , I pray tell me how it is possible for the baptizer to dip the whole baptized under water , and to lift him up again above the water ? sith for this the strength of more men then one is necessary : perhaps you will say the person to be baptized may be an assistant , and an agent in the businesse so far himself as to go into the water , and stand there up to the middle , and then to yield the rest of his body to be put under by the administrator ; but this is for a man for the most part to dip himself , and divinity doth not admit of se-baptism , and permits not the baptized to be agents , but in this act will have them to be patients , and baptized by others ; is there any command for them to go into the water ? Baptist. I think Mr. Simpson of Bethersden , and you have laid your heads together , you jump so right in one mind in this matter , for in this manner , and almost in the very same words doth he speak in that letter of his I spake of above , divinity admits not say you of se-baptism &c. what your sinodical divinity admits of as good baptism I weigh not , and what you call se-baptism I know not , but if you call that self-baptizing for the baptized to go with the baptizer into the water , and there submit himself to be overwhelmed in the water by the hands of the administrator putting him under , the Scripture admits of such a se-baptism as this , and if we had no command for acting so far in order to our own baptism , yet we have president so plain as is equivalent , witnesse the Eunuch that went down with Philip into the water , and yet ( saving your ignorance , which permits not the baptized to be agents ) Paul had command to be so farre an agent in order to his baptism as to do more then barely sit still viz. to arise , and put himself in a posture suitable to that purpose , neither can you totally deny him to be truly baptized and overwhelmed in water according to the will of Christ ( and that is sufficient ) that betakes himself not onely to the water , but also so farre into it , that the dispenser may conveniently put him under it , unlesse you suppose that the dispenser of old did carry the disciple in upon his back , and then dash him in against his will , and that were in the disciple the part of a proper patient indeed ; besides doth the condemned mans being agent , and assistant so far toward the cutting off of his head , as to ly down , and fit his neck to the block make him a se-slayer , or accessary so far to his own death that you can properly call him a murtherer of himself ? what dribling Divinity is this ? Rantist . Mr. Blake saies further that if the Scripture way of baptizing were thus to dip or drown them , the baptizer and baptized must both put off their garments , and lay them aside for that businesse , but we find no such thing mentioned , we find saith he , one i● the new testament stoned , and the laying aside of the garments of the witnesses is more then once mentioned , but among all the multitudes that were baptized there is not one word of unclothing for that end , nor yet of the putting on of garments after baptism , when yet sometimes there had been all reason for the mention of it , as in the case of Paul , of whom after he was baptized , it is said he received meat , and was strengthned , but not that apparell was put on him , nor dry and warm clothes applied to him , which we should sure have heard of , if he had bin dipt over head in water . Baptist. If by putting off of clothes Mr. Blake mean , as it appears he doth by his talk of naked dipping in the same place , such a putting them off as is in order to putting on others fit for such a purpose in their stead , I know not onely no necessity , but no modesty also in such a divestment ; nor yet does Mr. Tombes I dare say , though in his expressions viz. that in former dayes it was thought no immodesty , and that there is no necessity that persons be dipt naked , Mr. Baxter is so abominably uningenuous as to wrest his words into such base and sinister senses , and to abuse him to the world as if he had meant it was no immodesty in old time to be dipt naked , and as if he held it lawfull to be dipt naked , though not necessary , when ingenuity of judgement , and such love as he pretends to Mr. Tombes would have construed his meaning to be this , viz. that it was counted no immodesty in former times , though it be now by Mr. Baxter , to be dipt in that way , wherein we are dipt , which is not naked , as Mr. Baxter bruits it , and that it is not necessary to be dipt naked , as Mr. Blake Mr. Baxter and Mr. Cook think it is , if persons be baptized by a totall dipping ; and as for the Scriptures mentioning of the putting off , and on of their clothes in their addresses to , and dresses after baptism , there was not onely no necessity , but at all no expediency in the mention of such a matter : yea both reason and nature it self suggesting how needful that was to be done , it would have been very vain and superfluous to have talked on it : as for the double mention that is made viz. by Luke Acts 7.58 . of the witnesses that stoned Stephen laying aside their garments at the feet of a young man , whose name was Saul , who is said Acts 8.1 . to be consenting to his death , and also by Paul himself Act. the 22.20 . confessing to God his persecutions , and how when the blood of the Martyr Stephen was shed he was standing by and consenting to his death , and kept the raiment of them that shew him , Mr. Blake cannot be so silly as to think that that clause concerning those mens clothes was put in as a piece remarkable , or worth recording of it self , or in any other respect in the world , save for this end onely as it was an expression of the malice , that Saul , who was afterward converted and called Paul , did at that time bear against the truth , for surely had there not been that good reason wherefore , the laying aside of their clothes had not been worth our notice , nor should it ever have been mentioned simply for it self sake ; but now there was no such weighty end as this , nor any end , or purpose at all in order to which it was needfull to mention the circumstance of their clothing , and unclothing about the administration of baptism , it is enough that we have recorded of the thing in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 viz. that , and how , and why it was done , but it would have been frustraneous , and even every way endlesse to have minded us of such impertinent appertenances to baptism as the dressing and undressing of the disciples : if any one tell me a story that such and such infants were sprinkled at such places , is not that relation sufficient , and compleat unlesse he tell me how the infants were drest in their blankets , and what a fi●ling was made by the midwife , and the minister about the unpinning and turning up of their face clothes ? is not the story of Naamans washing himself seven times in Iordan full enough to our use , because there is no mention of his putting off and on ? Christ washt his disciples feet , and wiped them , it may well be supposed they put off their shoes first , and put them on again , yet there is no mention of that : Mr. Blake , thinks that among all the multitudes that were baptized there must have been some words about their unclothings , and clothings , and specially that there was reason that we should have heard that Paul had dry and warm clothes put on him after his baptism , as well as mention of meat given him , if he had been baptized by immersion , because he had been weak ; but what crude conceits are all these ? it was related that he was weak through fasting three daies , and that was but proper , and answering to the other to tell how after he eat his meat , and gathered strength , but the other must have come in ( for ought I see ) without either sense or reason : and sith he stranges that among so many baptized , no mention should be made of their preparations viz. the seponing , and resuming their garments , I wonder what mention he finds of the accommodations that those multitudes had that were circumcised in Abrahams family in one day , and in the City of the Shechemits , and those thousands in the wildernesse , after the long cessation , both before and after circumcision ? and yet that was such a tedious bloody , sore , and painfull piece of service , as required ( no question ) ten times more attendance with clothes and other accomplishments till it was whole , then this of baptism , even in that so troublesome way to you wherein we dispense it . Rantist . But pray give me leave a little : Now we talk of their Cloaths , I remember that no sooner was Christ come out of the water , but immediately the spirit drove him into the wilderness , the spirit of the Lord caught away Philip and the Eunuch went on his way rejoicing , Act. 8. whence I argue thus , viz. if they put off their Cloathes they did not stay to put them on , but went away naked , if they had them on , then being as you say , dipped over head and ears , they must have worn them wet , but the first had been unseemly , the later prejudiciall to their health . Baptist. Well argued Mr. Simpson again : as sure as can be you have got his Arguments by root of heart , for these also are Mr. Simpsons very words in that letter of his above mentioned . Rantist . Whose Argument this is it matters not , I suppose it is past your answer , and here is reason enough in it to disprove Christ and the Eunuchs total dipping , as a meer groundlesse and reasonlesse conjecture , and crotchet of your own coming , or if you have any thing to say to it I pray let us have it out of hand . Baptist. Reason say you ? it were well if there were so much as common sense in it , for my part I suppose it a senselesse fancy , but I am sure there is so little truth in the ground of it , that its stark rotten at the very root : it is a dispute Ex falso su●positis , t is taken by you for granted as necessary , when it shall never be yielded to by us for so much as probable , that Christ and the Eunuch were baptized either naked or else in the cloathes they ware immediately both before or after either : for both Christ ( comming purposely to be baptized ) and the Eunuch though not thinking of baptism till Philip met him , yet returning homeward from Jerusalem , where he had been for some time , were undoubtedly accommodated otherwise , and with change sutable enough to such a businesse . Secondly , it supposes that both Christ , Philip and the Eunuch , posted all so immediately several waies from the water , that they staied not so much as to cover themselves with other Cloathes , then those they went with into , and came up with out of the water : whereas , as nature it self forbids us to believe they went in , much more that they went away naked , for common sense forbids us to take the word immediately in so strict a sense , as to think they departed in such extremity of hast as was no way consistent with the shifting , and so fitting of themselves for departure : Immediately doth seldome sound forth such a suddennesse as admits of no intertime , nor invening action at all : yea sometimes it signifies no sooner then some howers , some daies , some years after , according to the nature of the matter asserted in the sentence wherein it hath its use , as Matth 24.29 . nor doth it expresse any other in Mark 1.13 . where it is said Immediately the spirit drave Christ into the Wildernesse , then within a while after his baptism , as appears not only by Matth. 4.1 . where it is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which word is there [ peractis praedictis ] ordinative of another story , but specially by Luke 4.1 . where it s said plainly that he was returned from Iordan , before it is said he was led into the wildernesse : and had you or Mr. Simpson , compared Scripture with Scripture , or heeded the harmony of the Evangelists , you had saved your selves the labour of all those lines , and lost nothing by it but what is worth nothing , viz. the Argument it self , for as if I should say immediately after the child was sprinkled the Gossips and friends went along with it home , it were absurd to understand me so , as if I meant that they did not stay so long after , as to wipe the childs face , and put the face cloathes over it , and lap it up again in the loose blanket to keep it warm : so no lesse absurdity is it to understand that speech , viz. And immediately the spirit caught away Philip , and immediately after Christ was baptized he went in to the wildernesse , so strictly as if there was not staying so much as to reassume any garments they had laid aside , in order to the more conveniency of their baptizing . One thing more I cannot but take notice of in this clause as t is Mr. Simpsons and that is what little proportion , if not contradiction , it holds with the words of Mr. Simpson ( or rather of Mr. Blake used by Mr. Simpson ) immediately precedent to these in his letter , for he will not give way to it at any hand that Christ and the Eunuch went into the water , or at least that they were put into the water by Iohn and Philip , or taken thence , but onely in the phrase of Mr. Blake , at the third hand of Mr. Cook , that they went to the water , and came thence , and yet here he forgets himself so far as to the confutation of himself and them to speak 〈◊〉 the phrase or Scripture concerning Christ and the Eunuch , viz. that they came out of the water , which if they could do , and neither went into it , nor were put into it , then I know not how to understand plain English. Rantist . Well this is all but by the businesse , let us go on and consider what more Mr. Bl. brings to disprove dipping to be the primitive custome , he tells you further p. 9. it was the Apostles way to baptize disciples as soon as they were become Converts the same day , rather sometimes the same houre , as we see in the Eunuch , the Jaylor , and Lydia , and multitudes of others ; but conversion of Disciples necessarily happened when there was no season for dipping , the Element of water being over Cold for that service . If any object that in those Countreyes there was no danger in the coldest times . He answers , the commission being for all Nations disciples were made in all Countreys ; how soone saith he came the word to this Nation ? &c. sometimes therefore saith he the water and weather was too cold for dipping . Secondly , the Number of Converts were so numerous 3000 , 5000. in one day that there was no possibility of baptizing in that Manner , Acts 2.41 . and the 44. Thirdly , Sometimes the Baptizers were in that condition that they were unable for that work in that way , as Paul and Silas men newly taken out of the stocks in the Inner Prison , with such stripes that their Convert was fain forthwith to wash them , in this case they were unfit to wade into the water for that work , and had they made any such adventure the Scripture would not have been silent . Fourthly , Sometimes the baptized have not been in case for dipping and plunging , which was Pauls case upon the Aparition of the vision he was lead into Damascus , where he continues without meat or drink three daies , and upon Ananias his comming in , and instructing of him he is baptized , and when he had received meat , saith the text , he was strengthned , will any believe he went out in this case with Ananias into the water , over head in water before the taking of any sustenance ? Baptist. That persons were baptized as soon as ever they became Converts , and could be discerned to be disciples , even the same houre commonly without delay is an undeniable truth , for that and no other was the very period of time at which , what ever their parents were , they were deemed to have true title to baptism : for neither if their parents were wicked were such excluded as were , nor if the parents were godly , were such admitted as were not converted upon the Account of the fathers goodnesse or badnesse , but as they believed or not themselves , and this makes me the more amazed at it , that it is come to passe since that the faith of the father can now intitle the child to baptism , though the child have no faith at all of his own , and yet I muse more sith you all count infants , at least of believers , to be disciples from the womb , why yet you delay their baptism so long , and do it not at the same houre of their birth : for whether they be Discipuli nati , or discipuli facti if they be disciples ( as you falsly suppose they are ) if the primitive rule were to baptize persons as soon as ever they appeared to be disciples , then ( unlesse you have any special instinct , whereby you know them to begin to be disciples , and in the faith , as many of you count them , about that very houre you baptize them in , and not before ) you will appear to be a little tardy in your dispensations by your own rule , though in truth you are too hasty for all this . Now as to Mr. Blakes terrible conceit , concerning the coldnesse of the water , specially in some weather , when yet , if dipping were the way , there would by means of mens conversion , occasion be ministred to dip in , sith I see occasion will be ministred to discourse more of winter dipping , when I come to Mr. Baxters grand Arguments , with one of which this is coincident , I shall say nothing to it here , but there speak to both under one , save only that I must here tell Mr. Blake that conversion of disciples necessarily happened when there was no season for dipping without danger , the Climate being , by reason of persecutions that rose against that way , much more over hot then the Element of water can at any time be over cold , for the owning of that servi●e , must it therefore be forborn for fear of hazarding our lives ? if no exemption from a hotter service , why from a colder for the lifes sake ? which whoever will save shall loose , but whoever will loose for Christs name sake , and the Gospels shall preserve it to life eternal : as for the rest under that head I fully agree with it viz. that whatever that is , there is commission but for one manner of baptism for all nations . As to the multitude of Converts three thousand , five thousand converted in one day , which shift word for word Mr. Simpson covers his nakednesse with , adding thus much thereunto , viz. could Peter and those few with him the dispensers of this ordinance have stayed so long in the water , or by dipping every one dipped so many in so short a time ? I answer how many and in how short a time does the man mean ? as for the 5000 it is doubtful whether they were all converted in that one day , or whether he speaks not rather of the whole multitude that believed before , which were 3000 together with those that afterward were added , which might be some 2000 and so 5000 in all ; but if there were fullly 5000 that then believed , and that they were all at the same time baptized too , which is not said , and t is more probable ( for done it must be ) that t was done at another time , or else by other hands then by Peter and Iohns , for they were laid hold on in the Temple as they were speaking , but suppose I say that there be at any time full five thousand newly believing in so short a time as one day , if they could not be baptized all in one day they must necessarily , they might lawfully for ought I know stay till the next , but yet 3000 we read were baptized in one day , neither is it such an impossible thing as you , who stumble at every straw , are slugg'd by every rub , and look on duty with such difficulty , as if a Lyon were in the way , would seem to make it , for 5000 to be baptized in one day ; Multorum manibus Grande levatur Opus , Multorum manibus Grande levatur Onus , Many hands of them that have love to Christ may both lessen , and lighten that service , and suffering that is sustained for him , and make burthensome performances , ( and such I perceive it is to you tenderlings , that make provision for the flesh to fullfill it in the ease thereof , to dipp many , or be dipped your selves in cold water , or weather ) possible , easie , and pleasant , and how many hands there might be at work at once at the dipping of the 3000 besides the hands of the 12. who as occasion was made use of others to dispense the ordinance , it being an inferiour work to their preaching , see Act. the 9. Act. 10. 1 Cor. 1. may be conjectured , when the number of disciples were a hundred and twenty , where if there were but forty dispensers , with what ease might they baptize a 100 a piece , and do themselves no more wrong neither with abiding in the water , knee deep , or a little more for half an hour together , then he that stands deeper for almost a day together , and washes many a hundred sheep , as I have known some do , and that not by plunging onely , but longer padling with each of them by farre then need be in onely dipping persons , and so letting them go again ; besides when once 3000 were baptized , how many hands there were ready to baptize not 5000 onely , but 5 times 5000 if occasion were , and that quickly too , is evident to any rational man that reckons it ; for it is a work which when it is once ready to be done , is done in lesser time , then I have seen taken up by the Parish Priest in his dropping , and crossings , and other font fidlings about an infants face : and if you suppose it may ask so much hand for so many persons in so short a time as one day to make themselves ready for such a work , I hope the same time that serves one to undresse and dresse in , which may be some a quarter , or at most not above half an hour , may as easily serve ten thousand , for as if all set at once to sweep every one his own door , a whole City may be clensed in an instant , so every one that is willing addressing himself to the work , a thousand may be ready as soon as one . And as for that other conceit of Mr. Blake , which Mr. Simpson transcribes out of his book into his own letter in these words viz. that Paul when he was baptized by Ananias was not in case by reason of his weaknesse to be plunged in water over head and ears , as he was not by reason of his stripes to have gone in a deep river or pond , when he baptized the Iaylor , it is as wisdomlesse as any of the rest , for what if he were taken out of the stocks in the inner prison & had such stripes that his convert was fain to wash them , was he therefore so unfit , or was it such a strange adventure ( as Mr. Blake proclaimes it ) to wade in the water for such a work as the dipping a few persons ? could that water that toucht his legs while he waded , be more mischievous to him , then the water that washed the blood of his stripes ? and when he was baptized himself , what though he had fasted three daies from food in that sudden extasie of his mind , which time its like he spent in fasting and prayer to the Lord , for behold he prayeth saith the text , yet I trow , as dainty of danger as our Clergy men are , that dare dip their fingers , but not their feet in cold water for Christ , that voluntary keeping under of his body did rather fit , then unfit him for burial with Christ in baptism , which his proud flesh would else not have stoopt to . Surely Sirs you are men that make so much of every little for Christs sake , that Crosses and diseases your flesh , that you will hardly ever commend your selves as the ministers of Christ did of old 2 Cor. 6.5.6 . &c. 2 Cor. 11.26.27 . in much patience , in afflictions , yea in necessities , in stripes and imprisonments , in tumults , in crossings , in labours , in perils of waters , in wearinesse , in painfulnesse , in watchings often , in hunger and in thirst , in fastings often , in cold and nakednesse , in indurance of hardship as good souldiers of Christ 2 Tim. 2. which sith you decline with all the might you can , rather then expose your selves freely to for truths sake , therefore ( the Lord have mercy upon your persons ) your ministeriall capacity will be cashiered . Rantist . Well what if it was so in the primitive times , that total dipping was the custome , must it therefore needs be so now ? will it follow that we must follow their fashion in that particular ? there may be sundry reasons , whereupon they might baptize in such a manner then , and yet no reason at all why we should tie our selves to the same . Baptist. If it was so ? what do you speak suppositively of it still ? nay verily I hope you will not be so obstinate as to deny , for all your gainsaying it hitherto , but that it was so then , for sure enough it was otherwise then in that way of sprinkling , or powring , nose dripping or face dipping either , which are in use amongst you ; and , keep it out at swords point as long as you can , yet you will be forct to yield to it in the end , when you consider , that your own par●y are fain to flag so far in this case , as to confesse it , for not onely Tilenus reacheth us , that heretofore submersion was the way of baptizing , rather then aspersion , but Dr. Featley also furnishes us ( as I have shewed above ) with as much as we desire , and if it be once granted ( as it is in a manner already by not a few , if not all but Mr. Blake , why else do they trouble themselves , and the world to render reasons why it might be by submersion in the primitive ages and places of baptizing , but not so now ? ) I know no reason worth a rush , on which we can be held excused from baptizing by submersion as they did : Rantist . T is true it is confest by some , and if it were granted by all that baptism was then by dipping it were not so material to your cause , nor would you get so much ground by it , sith both such as flatly agree to it , and such as see not cause to agree to it so fully as some do , are all agreed in the grand reason why it was so then , and why it may not be so now at any hand viz. the different temper of those climates , wherein baptism first began , and of ours , wherein it now is practised , theirs being so hot , that there could be no danger by dipping in the coldest times , ours so cold , that it cannot but be very dangerous , if not destructive to life and health . I grant saith Dr. Featly that Christ and the Eunuch were baptized in the river , and that such baptism of men especially in the Hotter Climates hath been , is , and may lawfully be used , but the question is whether no other baptizing is lawfull ? or whether dipping in Rivers be so necessary to baptism , that none are accounted baptized , but those that are dipped after such a manner ? usitatior olim fuit &c. submersion was more usual in Judea and other warmer Countreys saith Tilenus then aspersion , notwithstanding sith submersion may prove prejudicious to the health , specially of such tender infants , as for the most part are baptized now a dayes , we suppose the Church may use which she pleases , and saies Mr. Baxter , if it were otherwise in the primitive times , it would be proved but occasionall from a reason proper to those Hot Countreys ; and saith Mr. Cook though it were granted that in those Hot Countreys they commonly washed by going down into the water , and being dipped there , whether in ordinary , or ceremonial , or sacramental washing , that will no more inforce on us a necessity of observing the same in baptism now , then the example of Christ , and the Apostles gesture in the sacrament of the supper , ties us to the same ; which was leaning , and partly lying , which was their usual table gesture then , now the ordinary table gesture which is usual among us , is most fit , so the usual manner of washing among us is most fit to be observed in baptism , and that is by powring as well as by dipping : so you see these men are all of a mind , that is was , or at least might be so possibly in the primitive times , but if it were , yet not so in ours , in regard of the coldnesse of our climate . Baptist. Then it seems we shall have it amongst you pro confesso that in the Apostles dayes the way was dipping , for though Mr. Cook keeps a loof off in his hypotheticals , saying , though it were granted , and Mr. Baxter , who borrowes well nigh all he saies against dipping from Mr. Cook , Cookes it out but conditionally , saying , if it were otherwise , yet Tilenus takes our part plainly , and the Dr. drawes neerer to us then so , giving it for gone that in those Hot Countryes baptism in rivers was then used , onely whether such manner of dipping in rivers be so necessary to baptism in all countreyes , this we say saies he is false , and so for ought I see you say all . But Sirs first , I pray tell me from the very bottom of your consciences , whether you can conceive that Christ hath appointed two sorts of baptism viz. one kind of baptism for Iudea , and those regions round about Iordan , and another for England , Scotland , France , Spain , Italy , and all the regions round about of the Romish Christendom ? whether he hath ordained two baptisms , or rather two different dispensations , whereof one is not baptism , to be used in different places , viz. baptism for the Hot Countryes ; and Rantism for the Cold ? or whether he hath not rather wild one onely baptism , and that a true one , to be used throughout the world , Dr Featley , Mr. Cook , Mr. Baxter suppose the first , but where 's Mr. Blake all this while their wonted Coadiutor in the cause ? verily he leaves them a little here , and lends us his hand , who hold that Christ gave order , and commission for no more then one way of baptism in all Nations ; for howbeit he finds in his heart to let Rantism passe for currant baptism among them that take the liberty to maintain , and use it for fear of cold p. 4 ▪ yet whatever way of baptism the commission was given out for in those Hotter Countryes , whether submersion or infusion , ( for aspersion he ownes not to be it however ) the very same way , and no other , he holds the commission to be for in the coldest Nations under heaven ; and this will appear if what he saies in his 9. p. be considered , where after he had used this argument to prove that total dipping was not the way of the primitive baptism viz. because the conversion of disciples , and so consequently their baptism hapned sometimes to be , when there was no season for dipping , the element of water being over cold for that service , he speaks thus in way of answer to an objection viz. if any object that in those Hotter Countryes there was no danger in the coldest times , I answer saith he , The Commission being for all nations , disciples were made in all Countries : how soon came the word to this nation ? &c. In which words he is void of common sense that doth not discern Mr. Blake siding with us , saying that the way of baptism should be one in all ages , and places , and asserting quite contrary to his fellow disputers against dipping , so far as to confute them to our hands , for whereas they all uno ore with one consent cry out that the reason why they baptized by dipping in the primitive time was because Judea and the regions round about were Hot Countryes , but England is a colder climate , and therefore we need not baptize the same way as they d●d : he tells them plainly that the heat of those Countries could be no reason why they should use totall dipping then , more then other nations , because the commission for baptizing was one and the same , to all Nations , and disciples were then made in all Countryes , as well as in Iudea , in cold Countries as well as in hot , yea how soon saies he , came the word to England it self ? baptism therefore in his account should be the same in England as in Iudea , not by dipping in Iudea more then in England because that was a hot Country and this a colder , but the commission is a like in all places cold and hot , this is the sense those words of his sound forth , but if Mr. Blake were silent in this case , the Scripture speaks loud enough , that there is but one baptism for all Nations , and no Rantism ordained for any , for then the commission must include Christs willingnesse to dispense with colder climates in this point , and in our understandings at least run thus viz. go and teach all nations , baptizing them that live in hotter countryes , and rantizing them that live in colder climates ; he that believeth , and is baptized , if he live in Iudea , or any Hoter Countrey , or is but rantized if he live in England , or any cold Countrey shall be saved , in which silly unsound sense to understand those Scriptures is to be silly indeed , and without either sense or understanding : and yet thus it may be understood if this be the reason why they in Iudea must be dipt , and we in England must be no more then sprinkled for fear of danger viz. because Iudea was a warm Countrey , and England a cold one : for either Christ did ordain the thing to be done in this different manner in different regions , or he did not , if he did then it must be first some way or other intimated in the commission , but there it is not , and secondly it must be done accordingly in this different manner in the execution , or else they are high transgressors that do but rantize in Iudaea , and they high transgressors ( and so Mr. Blake and Mr. Cook say they are with a witnesse , but will never prove it . ) that baptize by total dipping in England ; but if he did not ordain it to be done in such several waies in several Regions , according as they are hotter or colder , but in one way only in all places , then that one way is by baptizing , i. e. dipping onely , or else by rantizing onely ; and if by baptizing onely , then they are high undertakers that take upon them to correct Christs commission saying t is better , and safer to rantize only in some places ; if by rantizing onely , then ( non tutum est ludere cum sa●ris ) they were vain persons that made a Maygame , and matter of pleasure of the ordinances of Christ , that in Iudaea and the hotter Countreys would chuse to be baptized for delight and coolnesse sake by totall dipping , and bathing in water , rather then otherwise , when Christ ordained no more then sprinkling , or infusion . Secondly , Sirs you grant so much as to say possibly , probably it might be done by dipping in Iudaea , and the Hot Regions round about , but may not be in these colder , pray tell me from the bottom of your consciences without stifling them , or shuffling with them , so as not to suffer them to speak , what constructions must be made of those Scriptures , which we have canvast to and fro , which relate the manner of their baptizings that then were , viz. Matth. 3.16 . Mark 1.9.10 . Act. 8.38 . where it is said of the people and Christ , that they were baptized in Iordan , into Iordan , went down into the water , and came up out of the water , yea were buried with Christ in baptism Rom. 6. Collo . 2. yea and of all the other Scriptures , that tell us of the baptism that was dispensed in those Hot Countries as Iohn 3.23 . Act. 16.13.14.15.33 . where it is said Iohn baptized in Aenon because there was much water , and Paul went out to a Rivers side , and spake the word , at which time Lidya and hers were baptized , and a while after the Jaylor and his , tell me I say what construction all these , and all the Scriptures that talk of baptism , as dispensed in those Hot Countryes , must consequently bear , if it be once granted that such total dipping was the manner of baptizing in the primitive times in those Hotter Countreys , must they not then needs have the senses we put upon them , viz. that Christ and the rest did really descend into the water , were buried under the water , and raised again , and not those forced senses , into which you would rest them to your own ends , viz. that they went but to the water , and there were wetted onely by sprinkling , or pouring , and from the water again without going into it , or being dipped in it ? if you give us one for granted , viz. that in Iudaea and those Hot Countreyes , as Rome , Phillippi , and Collosse the manner of baptizing was by going down into the water , and being dipped therein in this Sacramental washing , you must necessarily give up also all the interest that you claim in those Scriptures for sprinkling , they being no other then the relation of what baptism was done in Iudea , and those Hot Coun-Countreys , and not what was done in cold ▪ if then it be supposed that baptism by submersion , and not aspersion , was the custome in the Scripture times , it must semblably be supposed that the Scriptures themselves , that story out the baptism of those times do speak of that Manner of baptism that then was , and not of another , unlesse we suppose it must be interpreted as speaking of another thing , then that it only speaks of , and so consequently this Scripture , this Testament must be supposed to be wholly on our sides , and to speak only of mens baptism by submersion , and you must suppose out some New Testament of Christ , if you can tell where , for the exemplifying of your baby Baptizing . Rantizing . And further had you chanced to be born , and bred in such Hot Countryes where dipping is the Custome , as you happened to come out in such a cold Climate where for fear of cold , more then any thing else , that is to warrant such a practise , the custome is onely to sprinkle , I appeal to your own consciences , whether such a thing as rantizing would once have come into your minds upon the single search of those Scriptures ? Thirdly , whereas you talk of dipping as the way of baptizing in those Hot Countreyes , both Mr. Baxter and Mr. Cook also p. 15. assert that In those Hot Countrys waters for dipping were scarce and rare , and could not be had in some places in a great distance , and therefore , if sprinkling or pouring only must be used in some Countreyes , and dipping in other some , in all reason and likelyhood , if any places may be exempted from dipping , sprinkling should be dispensed with rather in those Hot Countreyes to save people the paines of travelling so far as they must do for dipping , where the waters were at such a distance from them , and dipping rather appointed to be used in these Countreyes , where the Service , as it is not much more tedious then it was in Iudaea , at least in coldest , and sharpest seasons , so may it be moderated as touching the tediousness therof , by being done and dispatcht through the vicinity of waters here not very far off from our own doors . Fourthly , even those Hot Countryes of Iudaea , Rome , and the Regions therabout were not within the Torrid Zone , nor so hot , but that if cold water would have quenched love to Christ , and pretence of danger discharg'd from duty , they might have been as shy as your selves of being dipped in water , for even there the waters ( saies Mr. Blak● ) was over cold for such a service , and also this Colder Countrey ( as you count it ) of England is under the Tepid Zone , and not so exceeding cold in summer Seasons , but that dipping may be as well digested then , as in Iudaea , or as it is by such as then washed themselves in way of pleasure . This Hot Countrey catch therefore is an Argument that flashes fairly in the pan and makes a report with a powder , for almost every one le ts fly at us out of this Engine , but verily it is an empty Engine , a piece discharged to keep Cold Countrey Christians from killing themselves with Christs service , but charged with no great store of truth nor sense , nor reason : wherefore Sirs if the coldnesse of this service of total dipping do cause you to stand so coldly affected toward it as not to submit to it here in England , unlesse the Climate were a little hotter , yet at least let us , who by dipping as weak folks as your selves in winter have experienced how tollerable it is , through Christ strengthening us , for Christs sake to be with Paul in cold and perills of water , ( so you suppose t is to be dipped ) as well as in other hardship : Let us , I say , who are willing to venture on the way of dipping , proceed without your offence , and as for us we shall in order to your good be so far offended at your neglect of it , as uncessantly to call upon you and yours , to repent and be so baptized every one of you in the name of the Lord Iesus for the remission of sins , till you can shew us ( as I am sure you never will ) his letters pattents for your Exemption . Rantist . But Mr. Cook forces this Argument further yet , and tells you that their custome of being dipped enforces us to the same , no more then the Gesture that Christ used at Supper binds us to the same , you are willing to overlook that perhaps having little or nothing to say to it , but I pray take all along with you as you go , and be not so partial as to pick out what is easiest to be answered , and let the rest alone . Baptist. As for that poor piece of sustenance , that Mr. Cook affords beyond all the rest toward the further improvement of this exception which from the hea● of those Countryes you make against the Example of dipping in the primitive times , it hath no substance in it , whereupon your cause can possibly live , for though he saies their going into the water then , and being dipped therein no more inforces us to observe the same in baptism , then the Example of Christ , and his Apostles gesture in the Supper , which was leaning and partly lying , ties us to the same : but as the table Gesture of sitting now in use among us is fittest for the Supper , so the usuall way of washing , which is by powring as well as dipping is fittest to be observed in baptism . Yet I desire Mr. Cook to consider these things , First , that if the priesthood had but any such clear example of their being sprinkled in the primitive times , as we have of their going down into the water , and being dipt there , they would inforce us with more then Arguments to an observation of the very same , yea how hardly have we escaped being inforced by them from dipping , though they have not an inch of instance for their sprinkling ? Secondly , there is a vast difference between an example in point of circumstance , and meer gesture about a service , and the very substance of the service it self , variation from Christs example in the first is naught enough , but in the other worse then nothing ; yet even such is your degeneration from dipping to sprinkling , from baptism to rantism viz. not a variation from some certain circumstance in that one matter of baptism , but a variation from the ordinanance it self , a doing , not what Christ did in another manner , but a doing of another matter then Christ did : dipping with the face upward , and with the face downward is the same thing still , though in a different gesture , and ( to satisfie Mr. Simpson , who in his letter scarce thinks it a burial in baptism , if the face be not upward , and the water powred on , as the earth is on them , we burie with their faces upward ) whether this way or that way is not so much material if there be a total covering and overwhelming with either earth or water , it is a true burial still notwithstanding ; but dipping and sprinkling are two such diverse things , that the first is both baptism , and burial in baptism , but the second neither the one nor yet the other . Thirdly , and yet the gesture is so fa● to be heeded in every ordinance , that if we know any one to be better then another , and more assuredly to be that which Christ and his disciples used , I suppose we are bound , if not of necessity , not to decline it to follow any other mens fashions whatsoever , and I believe Mr. Cook did think it worth contending for to exchange the Bishops kneeling at supper , for one more suitable to that Christ used . Fourthly , the gesture Christ used was the same as ours i. e. sitting not leaning , nor yet lying , for though Mr. Cook asserts with such confidence that lying was used by Christ , t is undoubtedly utterly untrue : what ere was the usual table gesture then is nothing to the point , or if it be it is most evident it was sitting , as it is now , for if it was in some places the fashion to lean or ly on beds at great banquets ( as some tell us ) yet I am sure the table gesture was not lying nor leaning neither any otherwise then as we do viz. on one elbow or both when we please : the Scripture saies all along that he sate : Mr. Cook greeking it out in the margent as he does viz. Mat. 26.20 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mark 14.18 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Luke 22.14 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mat. 14.19 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 will not help him in what he saies , for if any or all of these words viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do signifie to lean or lie down , yet they all signifie to sit down also , for they are all rendred by discum●o the plain english of which is to sit down , and therefore also our translators do so English them , and I would demand of him again as he does of A. R. p. 12. whether he thinks that our translators , that have englisht them thus viz. he sate down , and as they sate dovvn , and he commanded the multitude to sit dovvn on the grasse , knevv not hovv to render the originall in its proper signification as vvell as he ? Nor yet fiftly is the usuall manner of vvashing among us , which you confesse is most fit to be used in baptism , by povvring as vvell as dipping , for povvring is ( and yet but in some cases onely , as namely the vvashing the hands , and in that very case but sometimes and seldome onely , for mostly that is by dipping , and this too , but when the infusion is so large as totally to vvash the hands so vvashed ) a preparative to such a vvashing , but a compleat true washing it is not of it self , vvithout some subsequent act of rubbing , vvhich you use not about infants faces ; but swilling in water is the most usual way of washing , and a washing of itself some times , and some times used without any after rubbing at all , therefore this by Mr. Cooks own rule by right should be observed in baptism . Sixthly , whereas he argues from the custom of the present times to an exemption from the primitive customes and practise , he might as well take upon him to say thus , if any man contend for that faith , way of worship , way of baptism , that was in the primitive and purest times . and for a reformation of all things according to the word , and example of the Churches the word speak● of , it is true those Churches indeed worshipped thus , were congregated thus , ordered thus , baptized thus viz. by dipping when they believed , but sprinkling infants is the way , and fashion now adaies , and as for what was done of the Churches of old , we have nothing to do with it , and if any list to be contentions for it we have no such custom now , nor the Churches of God! of which sure Mr. Cook cannot but be ashamed , who hath covenanted to reforme according to the word ●it● a covenant keeper , and a Custom-monger cannot possibly be denominated both of one . Rantist . Nay stay a little , you 'l forget your own words I think anon , did you not say your self even now that we must put difference between examples in substantiall matters , and in matters meerly circumstantial ? we desire to keep as close as your selves can do to the primitive custom in things of weight , and that there may be no variation from it , without a violation of the will of Christ in any point that is positively commanded , but I hope you will not make such a matter of moment of the manner of baptizing , as if Chrst had injoined this way or that way of dispensation of it , viz. dipping so strictly as that sprinkling may not be used , nor yet sprinkling so as that dipping may not be used , nay rather its a meer ceremony , a prudentiall point , in which the Church may use her discretion so as to dispense it either way , as conveniency and charity may dispose her , and no lesse is very well observed by Mr. Baxter p ▪ 135. Christ saith he hath not appointed the measure of water nor manner of washing , no more then he hath appointed in the Lords supper what quantity of bread and wine each must take , and as it would be but folly for any to think , that men must needs fill themselves with bread and wine , because it best signifies the fullnesse of Christ , so it is no better to say , that we must needs be washed all over , because it best signifies our burial with Christ , &c. Christ told Peter that the washing of his feet was enough to clense all , a little may signifie as well as much , as a clod of earth doth in possession of much lands , and a corn of pepper signifies our homage for much , and much to such a purpose are those words of Mr. Cook p. 20. some of which having been quoted , and spoken to before , though not so satisfactorily , but that they sway with me still , I am almost loath to repeat them , yet sith they be so among the other , I can hardly decline the mentioning them once more , by your leave , in answer to the objection , that a little water doth not so fitly and perfectly represent as dipping and plunging , sith in the one the whole body is washed , in the other the face or head only : He saies first , that the Scripture no where requires the washing of the whole body in baptism . Secondly , that with as good reason one may plead thus , that at the supper it is most convenient that every Communicant should receive his belly full of bread and wine , and take as long as stomach , and head will hold , to signify the full refreshment of the soul with the body and blood of Christ , but who , saies he , would endure such reasoning ? Thirdly , These outward Elements of water , bread and wine are for speciall use , and to signify special things , so that , if there be the truth of things , the quantity is not to be respected further then is sufficient for its end , namely to represent the spiritual grace , and that it be neither so little as not to represent , nor so much as to take of the heart from the spirituall to the corporal thing : not the washing away the filth of the body in baptism , nor the glutting or satisfying of the natural Appetite in the Lords Supper is to be looked after , but the washing and refreshing of the Soul , which may well be represented by the sprinkling of a little water , eating and drinking of a little bread and wine , In circumcision a little skin was cut of . You see what these worthy men say you , need not be so hot as you are for the ceremony , if so be you keep the substance . Baptist. I have received as much as all this comes to long since in a loving letter from a worthy friend of mine , whose words shall sway me , where I see them suit with the word of truth ( where not I must be excused ) to the full , as much as Mr. Cook and Mr. Blake and Mr. Baxters sway you be they right or wrong ; Grant that dipping was alwaies used in those Hot Countreys , yet you know saith he , that necessity and charity dispense with Ceremonies even of Gods own institution , nor is the Nature of the Sacrament altered by this change , viz. from dipping to sprinkling , for seeing the whole vertue of the Sacrament is in signification perablutionem , it no more matters Quantum quisque abluatur then it doth in the Supper Quantum quisque comedat . But verily I am not able to discern either in this , or in that you say above , or in that you cite out of Mr. Cook and Mr. Baxter the least warrant in the world for the way of sprinkling , or for waving the old wonted way of dipping , with all the wisdome I have to weigh it by at this instant : as for what you take notice of that I said my self above , viz. that there is difference between matters circumstantial , and substantial , so that we need not be so strict in the observation of the one , I will not eat any thing I then uttered , but me thinks you might as well , had you not been partial , have taken notice of what followed , as of that , which had you done , you would have seen how little accrues to your purpose out of that gran● of mine , for I told you there and now tell you again , sith I see you so quick to catch at things by the halves , and slow to mind what in them makes against you , that howbeit it is not so material which way you baptize , so you baptize , yet if you Rantize onely , you vary not onely in a circum●tance , but in the very substance of the Ordinance , doing quite another matter then that you should do , and not the matter , i. e. Baptism , in another manner onely ; for we will bear with that , as a thing neither here nor there , whether you baptize , i. e. wash a person by overwhelming or burying him in water in this gesture , or that , this form , or that , with his face up or down , yea be it by infusion of water on him , or immersion , or putting him under it , which of the two is most proper , and easy , we weigh it not , so you see to it that you bury , and overwhelm him : for all this while you retain both the true outward sign , which is baptism , or burial under water in baptism , in its nature , and essentiall form , in its true Analogy and proportion to the spiritual things signified , which are primarily the death , burial and resurrection of Christ , and secondly our being washed from sin by his blood ; but if once you fall from baptizing to rantizing , from submersion to aspersion , from dipping to dripping , from a totall covering to almost a totall keeping him from the water , you vary from the very thing that is required , not from one manner of baptizing to another , but from baptizing to another matter : There fore Si●s when you talk of our being hot for a ceremony , if by the word Ceremony you mean some petty , trivial , immaterial meer circumstance in baptism , which may indifferenter aut adesse aut abesse sine baptismi interitu , be or not be , and yet baptism be baptism still , as dipping backwards or forwards in ponds or Rivers , you are much deceived in us , we regard not such ceremonies ; But a ceremony is a thing , which though it stand but for a time , yet stands by positive command for that time , wherin it is to stand , by no lesse then divine institution , nor know I any man , Church or Angell that can institute a Ceremony to be observed and imposed ; and if by a Ceremony you mean thus , not the meer manner of baptizing , but the matter , even baptism it self , which of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may altogether with the ordinances of the Gospel or new Covenant very properly be stiled Ceremonies , as well as all the Ordinances of Divine service under the Law , forasmuch as these last but for their time , viz. till the second appearing of Christ , as those of the old covenant Heb. 9.1 . lasted only till his first appearing , then I confesse we are somewhat stiff for the ceremony , nor can you blame us if you consider what we do , for in so doing we contend for no lesse then substance , as far as you can call any ordinance of Christ so that hath a tendency , as a sign or otherwise , unto something yet more substantial ; the rite of Circumcision , the Passeover , and all the other Sacrifices of the Law , though shadowes in comparison of what they pointed at , yet were ordinances so substantial , as instituted of God , and so strictly to be observed , that who so should have taken upon him to alter , and shape them more to the model of his own mind , would have heard as ill from God for it as , without his leave , for omitting them altogether , & how ill that is he cannot be ignorant , that hears how sharply he speaks to them , that were too short but in tiths and offerings when in force , saying that a curse had therfore devoured their blessings Mal. 2. and also that neglected circumcision , saying every soul that is not circumcis'd , meaning of whom circumcision is required ( but it was not of females then any more then baptism is of infants now ) shall be cut off from among his people , and I appeal to your own consciencies if any should have said , circumcision is a painful , a tedious , and dangerous piece of service , and dispensation to little infants ( and so it was indeed much more then dipping in cold water ) and thereupon in charity circumcision being nothing , and uncircumcision nothing , but a new creature , we will only pare there nailes , and make that serve instead of the other , would the Lord have took it better at their hands ? would either God or good men have held them guiltlesse , yet whether they had circumcised thus or thus viz. with a knife , a sharp stone , or a pair of shears , I suppose that circumcision had been dispenst with , and even thus may we say of baptism as nothing as it is , it being an ordinance of Gods institution , both they that omit it to whom it is commanded , and they that in charity take upon them to alter it , so as to make Rantism serve instead of it , preaching or practising no baptism at all , or another thing that is no baptism under the name of it , were it the Apostles themselves , or an angel from heaven , that should thus alter the Gospell , shall equally be accepted , or rather equally accursed before God Gal. 1. can you blame us therefore if we contend for the right baptism ? for it is not another manner of the thing then you use , but the very thing it self we plead against you , who cannot be said to alter the right way of baptizing , but the rite of baptism it self ; it is not a bare circumstance in the ceremony we differ in , but we differ in the substance i. e. in the ceremony , or rite it self , which you have changed , having no parts at all of the rite in your wrong practise , which your own party divide the rite of baptism into . Ritus in baptismo est triplex saies Tilenus the rite or ceremony in baptism is threefold , immersion , or plunging into the water , continuance for a time under the water , resurrection out of the water , in resemblance of Christs death , burial and resurrection and ours in him . Which of all these three are to be found in your aspersion ? unlesse you will all own Featleys fetch for good resemblance viz. the dipping , burial , and resurrection of the ministers hand , when he sprinkles the infants face : sith therefore you have broken the law of Christ the Son , that Law-giver and Prophet , whose voice we are to hear in all that he saith , and changed the ordinances so far as to turn his baptism into rantism , you will as they that despised the Law of Moses the servant , be cut off from his people Acts 3. Heb. 2. Heb. 10. sith you make void his plain word under pittiful pretences viz. the coldnesse , the tediousnesse , the danger of dipping in these climates , as if the reason for dipping were proper onely to Hot Countries , no marvel if such as see from under the vail of priestly pretence , that hath darkned the whole earth , are hot to have a recovery to the truth , specially since it is a truth not unknown to us , nor yet so trivial tru●h as these that inck is made of gum , and paper made of rags , nor yet such a Scripture truth as is not material to be known , as that about Pauls cloak and parchments , and that Abiam was the Son of Sacar as Mr. Baxter bables p. 218.219 . ( a sign that paper is made of rags by his wasting it in such toies ) for these we are not so strictly held to reveal , but a truth of such worth , that it is to be preferred before that truthles peace he pleads for , the disturbance of which he calls hell p. 2●0 . saying , We are little beholding to those men that would have turned the Church into hell i. e. privation of peace , rather then silence their supposed truthes . To whom I say , If that be hell which priests so call , Then truths true friends are hell-hounds all . But a word to Mr. Baxter out of Mr. Baxter p. 218. in vindication of our loathnesse to betray this truth by our silence viz. The Law commandeth us to do our duty , to preserve truth from being lost , so that if truth be lost , while I do my duty , t is no sinne of mine , if it be not lost while I neglect my duty , it is yet my sin , God disposeth of events , not we , therfore what consequences may be occasioned , sith they are not caused by preaching the Gospel , I may not , for fear of them , nor shall shun to declare the whole counsel of God. I know necessity and charity do dispense with circumstances in ceremonies , and with ceremonies or ordinances themselves of Gods own institution sometimes , But first , it is with the omission onely , but not with the alteration of them into other , if a man converted on his death bed , or on the ladder , when ready to be executed , as the thief was upon the crosse , be willing to be baptized , if it may be , but cannot , in charity he may , and of necessity he must be dispenst with dying unbaptized in such a case , but no man may dispense another thing to him i. e. Rantism in its room and stead , no more then he may give other things then bread and wine in the supper , to a stomach too weak to bear either of those , for that is to take upon him to make another institution , and Gods leave man never had so to do . Secondly it must be by leave from the Lord implicit , or expresse , upon which onely we can ground the lawfulnesse of omission , and necessity , and charity , but not charity mistaken , are leave enough no doubt to let a lone , though in no wise to alter what ever he ordaines , as when it neither can be at all , nor can be done conveniently , nor possibly without killing men indeed ; whereupon we find no fault found with Israel in the wildernesse for forbearing to circumcise 40 years together , it is like least it should hinder them in their warfare , but sure I am they should have heard of it from the Lord if to forgo the sorenesse of that circumcision they had circumcised i. e. cut off onely the hair of their heads . Let the Ranter therefore shew us Gods word for his omission ; and the Rantizer for his mutation of Baptism , and we will fall in with either , as we see it evidenced therein . Rantist . If you do but mind the Testimonies I cited out of Mr. Cook and Mr. Baxter , and what you hinted your self as written to you in private , you cannot chuse but see word enough for our use of sprinkling , though dipping were used never so in the primitive times , for they tell you ( but me thinks you do not much mind it ) that the Scripture requires not totall washing , that Christ appoints not the measure of water nor manner of washing , more then the measure of bread and wine in the Supper , he hath left it ad libitum , and as they say very well , the whole vertue of the Sacrament lying in signification per ablutionem , it matters no more Quantum quisque abluatur , then quantum quisque comedat , and as it is folly to think that men must eat in the Supper as long as head and stomach will hold , because it signifyes the souls refreshment , so that in ba●tism we must be washed all over , because it best signifies our burial with Christ : a little signifies as well as much , a clod of earth , a pepper corn , a little skin cut off in circumcision , so by a little bread and wine eat and drank , and by a little water sprinkled may the refreshment of the soul be represented . Baptist. That which best signifyes is best to be done , and forasmuch as t●at best signifies , that both signifies and resembles the quantity of the Element , that manner of action which best resembles is best and fittest to be used undoubtedly in baptism , in which Christ hath undoubtedly appointed what is best , whereupon if Mr. Baxter grant ( or if he do not he cannot deny ) that overwhelming best resembles , and consequently best signifyes our burial with Christ , he never will give good reason whilest he breathes upon this earth , why washing all over ( as he calls it ) should not be used ; as for that reason that is given against it here by himself at second hand , and by Mr. Cook at first , of whom he borrowes well nigh every bit of what he saies against a totall dipping , save only his fearful , fairfowl flourishes upon it , viz. First that the measure of water , and manner of washing the whole body is not appointed , Secondly , That then in the Supper there must be a eating to the full , Thirdly , That a little may serve as well as much , there 's little weight as far as I see in any part of it . The first hath so little reason , that it hath no truth in it for Christ hath appointed vertually in some measure the measure of water in that his very appointment of the manner of washing in the way of a totall overwhelming , as appears before in the ●ignification of the word Baptize , which signifies a dipping or overwhelming of that subject , that is particularly denominated to be washed by it ; whether it be the whole man , or but a part of him ; if the tip of the finger only be said truly to be baptized , then that tip must be totally washed ; if the hands be denominated , without a figure to be baptized , then the hands at least are totally washed ; if the man be the subject properly predicated to be baptized , then that man also must be totally washed ; but in Scripture the man is required , and appointed to be baptized ; to the performance of which such a measure of water is consequently appointed , as may be at least sufficient for that end , and required it is that it be neither so little that it cannot totally wash him , nor yet so much as must necessarily drowne him , as an ocean would , but a proportion suitable to that purpose . To the second I might answer , that there is not altogether the same reason , for such a totall filling , and swilling in the Supper , as there is for a totall swilling in baptism ; sith the main and radical matter , that is to be resembled in baptism is Christs death , burial and resurrection , but the radical thing , that is resembled in that action of our eating and drinking in the Supper , is our faith , whereby we feed upon Christ , and accept him each to our selves as our Redeemer , without which that he is a Redeemer will do us no good , for faith ▪ is the appropriating of of Christ the bread of life , each to our selves , who is set before us in common in the whole loaf , and as it will do a man no good to have bread and wine before him , which are elements most refreshing , unless he take them , and eat and drink , so neither us to see a Saviour set before us , unlesse we take of his salvation to our selves . This is that which is most immediately signifyed , and particularly represented in the Supper , which businesse of bare taking Christ Jesus to our selves by faith , is represented truly in taking never so little , but a burial and resurrection not in never so little water ; a few crumbs of bread and sips of wine taken do rep●esent a taking of Christ in the Supper , but not so a few drops of water tiffled upon the face Christs death , buriall and resurrection : and fith you say the refreshment of the soul by the fullnesse is represented in our eating and drinking in the Supper , and yet that eating and drinking a little bread and wine not to fulness is enough in the supper to represent that , and so why not a little water , not deep enough to dip and bury in , applyed to us in baptism , the burial and resurrection of Christ ? I might answer that the refreshment of the soul by Christ is represented rather in the elements , then in the action of either , eating or drinking in the supper , by the bread which is a strengthner of mans heart , and wine which is for them of a sorrowful heart , and therefore there might not be altogether the need of representing our refreshing by eating and drinking much , at least so much as Mr. Cook and Mr. Ba. talkes of , viz. to the filling and glutting of our selves to the top as long as head and stomack will hold , that action would yield but a small resemblance of a refreshment , and were enough to make a sound man sick , but there is a reason in all things , and a difference as we say between staring , and stark mad : thus I say I might answer , and cut off your arguing for analogy , and a small portion of the element in baptism , as well as in the supper , between which there is not fully the same reason . But verily I am of your mind that a refreshment of the soul by the fulnesse of Christ is very fit to be resembled and represented by the quantity of the elements , as well as by the elements in the supper also ; and yet am I not of your mind that so little , as you ordinarily use , is so very fit as you dream it is to represent it , but of the mind rather that as you are in your baptism viz. not out of your element , as you should be if you were baptized in truth by submersion , or putting clear under water , but out in your element rather i. e. in the measure of your water , which is not adaequate to the true manner of washing , so you are also in the supper too poor in your provision of elements , for that which is the true and full purport of that sacred service ; you have got together many littles to prove that so little element as you use both in baptism and supper may do as well , if not better , then more , all which are very little to the purpose , a little may signifie as well as much saies Mr. Baxter , a clod of earth , a pepper corn : but what then ? we are to signifie with resemblance , or else a sacrament is no sacrament , saith Austin , but saies Mr. Cook a little may resemble the washing , and the refreshing of the soul may well be resembled by a sprinkling of a little water , eating and drinking a little bread and wine , in circumcision a little skinne was cut off ; what then ? First it was as much as God required to be cut off . Secondly it was so much as made it circumcision . Thirdly , as much as truly and clearly resembled the circumcision of the heart , which is signified , but such is not ( for all Mr. Cooks conceit ) that little water you sprinkle , nor yet that little becad and wine you distribute , it is neither so much as represents clearly the things signified , which are not onely the clearing of the soul by Christs dainties in the supper , which should be resembled by eating and drinking it , but some more chearing and refreshing of the body , then that which is commonly in your communions ; But alas the burial and resurrection of Christ , in baptism should be resembled by submersion , and emersion ; and therefore to answer Mr. Cook in the words of Mr. Cook , the outward elements of water bread and wine are for spirritual use , and to signifie spiritual things , so that if there be the truth of things [ but what I wonder if there be not ( as I am sure in Rantism there is not ) the truth of baptism ] the quantity is not to be respected further then is sufficient for its end , namely to represent the spiritual grace [ so far then it seemes it must be , and that is enough to confute Mr. Cooks Rantism , for it represents not the spiritual grace ] and that it be neither so little as not clearly to represent it ) [ yet so little is the quantity that you use , not of water onely in the one , but of bread and wine also in the other ordinarily ] nor so much as to take off the heart from the spiritual to the corporal thing ] content with all in my heart that it be not too much on this hand , provided that it be not too litle one the other , so but that it may reach to resemble the things signified , for the whole vertue of baptism lying in signification per ablutionem i. e. per submersionem , per sepelitionem in aquâ , and the vertue of the supper much what in signification per recreationem , per representationem plenitudinis : non multum interest , quantum quisque abluatur , modo obruatur , submergatur , sepeliatur , nec quantum quisque comedat , modo comedendo repleatur . ] To conclude Sirs you are too short in that point of the outward element in the supper as well as bapti●m , in the Church of Corinth there was so much bread and wine that if some hungred , others were drunken , as neither of these should have been , so the latter could not have been , but that the use then was to have more abundance of the elements , then you have in your parish passeovers , wherein the people are past over with so poor a pittance , that all may in likelihood be hungry enough , but none at all very easily drunken , such niggardly snips and sups ; not at Rome onely , where the Priests expounding Christ as speaking to themselves , when of the wine , saying drink ye all this , and not to the people , saying drink ye all of this , do impropriate the liquor wholly to themselves , but in England also do the priests supp , I should say dine ( for it is done at noon dayes with them ) their poor patient dependant people at the Lords table . There 's one thing among Mr. Baxters bedrow which I had almost quite past over without any answer , which if I had you would have said it is like I willingly forgat it ; Christ told Peter saith he that the washing of his feet was enough to clense all ; Mr. Blake gives us a touch here too through the persons of a popish party p. 10. of Peters mind saith he not to be washed in one part onely , which say some from the same place also viz. Iohn 13.9.10 . is as sufficient as the washof the whole . As if that Scripture even therefore because it speaks of washing , doth speak of this ordinance of baptism : either it doth Sirs in your opinion or it doth not , if not , to what purpose do you quibble upon it here ? if you say it doth , I much marvel why you think so , but more if in earnest you argue from it that a man need be baptized but in part onely , sith you all confesse practically that the face and head , but not the feet are the subject of baptism ▪ yea verily you had as good have said Pilate took water and washed his hands before the multitude , therefore the ordinance of baptism is no total dipping , for the story of Christs washing Peters feet speaks no more of the ordinance of baptism , then the other does ; yea it is most evident that the washing of the disciples feet was clear to another end and use viz. not to baptize them , much lesse to shew how they should baptize others , but meerly to teach them humility one toward another , and to condescend to the lowest offices that could be for loves sake to each other ; this Christ expressed himself to be the direct meaning of what he did , v. 12.13.14.15 . &c. after he had washed their feet he saies to them : know you what I have done to you ? you call me Lord and master , you say well , so I am ; if I your Lord and Master have washed your feet , you also ought to wash one anothers feet , for I have given you an example that ye should do as I have done unto you , this was Christs end therefore to learn them humility , which was done as well in washing their feet onely , as all the body , yea the feet only indeed , because the feet are the viler parts of the body , for us to stoop to wash , whereby to expresse our humility each to other , in which respect and no other it is that when Peter yet ignorant ●o what Christ was about to do , cryed out Lord my hands also and my head , Christ replies , that he that is washed , i. e. not in Baptism , but in this washing he was then about need not more i. e. ad rem substratam then to wash his feet , but is clean every whit , i. e. as much as he need be to this intent , for which I now am washing you : besides that the washing of the feet only is not a sufficient washing to denominate a man baptized according to Christs ordinance , is evident by the Eunuch , that went into the water , and so was washed in his feet , and yet not baptized for all that according to Christs will , till Philip had baptiz'd or dipt him there : it is a sign you are put hard to your shifts , when you use such impertinencies to help you as these . Rantist . Impertinency ? I think all is impertenency with you still , though never so solid , that is brought in disproof of your idol dipping : but what say you I trow to those two last unanswerable Arguments of Mr. Cook against totall dipping viz. that it is against both the sixth and seventh Argument , both which Arguments Mr. Baxter also takes after him , and ●angs you about with them a little better then Mr. Cook did , and laces your sides so handsomely therewith , that I believe you selves will be all sick of Mr. Baxter , and your cause scarce be whole of those two Gashes he hath thereby given it , salve it over as long as you will , for he proves it plain that your plunging practise is no better then flat Murther , and Adultery . Baptist. I say these are knocking Arguments indeed , if they be but as solid as they shew for , but for all that let us see a little for our money before we part with it , and hear what their Arguments are in words at length , and not in figures , if it chance to prove as you say they say , and as they say indeed in this particular , viz. that it is Murther and Adultery to dip as we do , I assure you in the word of a Minister and a Christian , that hopes to be saved in the way of innocency , as well as your selves , that dipping , as it is no idol of mine , for I adore it no otherwise then I ought to do every ordinance of our onely King , Priest and Prophet Christ Jesus , for his sake that ordained it , so it shall never be adored so much as to be owned more by me , but be abhorred rather with deeper detestation , then I dispense it with affection to this houre ; but I believe that their proof will fall wondrous short of so high a charge , as they venture to charge us with , be pleased therefore since you mention it in gross , to repeat their Arguments more at large , which I dare say your memory is more tenacious of then of any other , and I shall examine them as exactly as you you shall desire me . Rantist . First then let it be well considered what they say to the first thing . This dousing over head and ears and under water saith Mr. Cook , that you plead for , as essential to baptism , seems directly against the sixth Commandment and exposeth the person baptized to the danger of death . For first suppose the party be fit for baptism ( as you account ) in the sharp winter as now believing , professing &c. he must immediately be taken to the River as your tenet seemes to hold , and there plunged in over head and ears , though he come forth covered with y●e . But if he scape perishing with cold , how can he scape being choaked and stiffled with the water , if he must be plunged over head to signify his death to sin ? Secondly be kept under water to signifie his burial ? And Thirdly be taken up again as A. R. and you seem to reason ? But whatever be the danger of freezing or suffocation it seems , this you hold the only baptism and therefore must not be swerved from p. 21. Thus he , but more largely and plainly Mr. Baxter p. 134. That which is a plain breach of the sixth Commandement , Thou shalt not kill , is no Ordinance of God , but a most haynous sin , but the ordinary practise of baptizing by dipping over head in cold water as necessary , is a plain breach of the sixt Commandment therefore . And Mr. Craddock in his book of Gospel liberty shewes the Magistrate ought to restrain it , to save the lives of his Subjects &c. that it is flat Murder and no better , being ordinarily and generally practised , is undenyable to any understanding man , for that which directly tendeth to overthrow mens lives , being willfully done is plain Murder , but the ordinary or general dipping of people over head in cold water doth tend directly to the overthrow of their health , and lives , and therefore it is murder : here several answers are made saith Mr Baxter some vain , some vile . First Mr. T. saith that many are appointed the use of bathing as a remedy against diseases . To which I reply saith he , 1. though he be no Physitian , yet his own reason should tell him t is no universal remedy . 2. Few diseases have cold baths appointed them , I have cause , saith he , to know a little more then every one in this , and I dare say that in Cities like London , and amongst Gentlewomen , that have been tenderly brought up , and Antient people , and weak people , and shop keepers , especially women that take but little of the cold air , the dipping them in the cold weather in cold water in the course of nature would kill hundreds and thousands of them either suddenly or by casting them into some Chronicle disease ; & I know not what trick a covetous Land lord can find out to get his tenants ●● dy apace , that he may have new fines and heriots , likelier then to encourage such Preachers , that he may get them all to turn Anabaptists ; I wish that this devise saith be not it that countenanceth these men ; and covetous Phisitians me thinks , saith he , should not be much against them ; Catarrhes and obstructions , which are the two great fountains of most mortall diseases in mans body , could scarce have a more notable means to produce them where they are not , or to increase them where they are , Apoplexies , Lethargies , Palsies and all comatous diseases would be promoted by it , so would Cephalalgies , Hemicranies , Ph●hise● , debility of the stomach , Crudities , and almost all Feavers , Dissenteries , Diarraeas , Colicks , Illiack passions , Convulsions , Spasmes , Tremors , &c. all Hepatick , Splenetick , Pulmoniack persons and Hipocrandriacks would soon have enough of it , in a word , saith he , it is good for nothing but to dispatch men out of the world , that are burthensome , and to ranken Church yards . But Mr. T. will salve all this , for he saith that there is no necessity that it be in cold water . To which I reply , saith he , 1. But then he forsaketh the generality of his partners in this opinion , so much as we can learn , who usually baptize in Rivers and ponds . 2. And his warm bath would be very dangerous also . 3. Where should this bath be prepared ? if in private , it will scarce be a solemn engaging act , if in the meeting place of the Church , then 1. It will take no small room , and require no small stir to have a bathiag place , and water to dipp people over head . 2. And if they do not run home quickly before they are well ingaged , the hot bath will be turned to a cold one to them , and make them repent this badge of repentance , except they will have all things ready and be ●rought to bed also in the Church before the people . 3. And it will be long ere Mr. T. can clear out of his reading Antiquity what Church had such a bathing place in it ; but me thinks they that call for Scripture for infant baptism , should also bring Scripture for their baptizing in warm water , but some say they may stay till the heat of summer , when the water will be warm . To which I reply , saith he , where is your Scripture for that ? I have proved the constant rule , and Example of Scripture is clean contrary , and requires that men be baptized , when they are first made disciples , and not stay till summer . But some desperately conclude that if it be Gods way , he will save our lives , how probable soever the danger may seem . I answer , saith he , that this is to begg the question , nay I have shewed , and am shewing that it is not Gods way ; God hath appointed no ordinances contrary to his great morall commands . 2. God must not be tempted , this was the devils trick to have drawn Christ under pretence of Scripture , and trusting God to have cast himself into danger of death . 3. So you might have said to the disciples , that if it were Gods command to keep the Sabbath then they might not rub the ears of Corn , for God could sustain them without . 4. If it were a duty , yet when it is inconsistent with a greater duty it is at that time a sin , for it is alwaies a sin to prefer a lesser duty before a greater , for the duty of self preservation is a morall , naturall duty , and baptizing is but positive &c. God hath not appointed ordinances in his Church that will destroy men except they be preserved by Miracles , for then it were a tying himself to a constant working of Miracles &c. So that I conclude saith Mr. Baxter , if Murder be a sin then dipping over head in cold water in England is a sin , and if those that would make it mens religion to murder themselves , and urge it on their consciences as their duty , are not to be suffered in a Common-Wealth any more then High way Murderers , then judge how these Anabaptists , that teach the necessity of such dipping are to be suffered . Thus you see what opinion these men are of concerning your totall dipping , and upon what ground ; yea though Mr. Tombs , and others make so light of it , and wash it over as well as they can , yet Mr. Baxter wipes of all their varnish , and represents it on its proper colour to the world , in its own ugly hue , and maintains it to be no lesse then meer Murder , and you may prate a while , and practise to if you please , having your quiet advantages so to do in this distracted juncture of time , but I hope an order will we taken with you in time according to your deserts , is the right Kirk Government were once settled , though hitherto you have the hap to scape Scot-free . Baptist. If one were disposed to give no other answers , then Mr. Tombes viz. that bathing is a remedy against diseases , and that it is not necessary to be in cold water , as vain as these are with Mr. Baxter , they may serve to salve the cause sufficiently from any sore that Accrues to it from that much more vain , and pedling prit●le-prattle in which Mr. Baxter reanswers him , e. g. his learned conjectures about Coveteous Land-lords , Physitians , and his wretched wishes that they , in hopes to have men dy apace , do not divise countenance for the way of dipping , and the divine verdit he vents on it , as good for nothing but to dispatch men out of the world , that are burthensome , and to ranken Church-yards ; what Rotten Riff-Raff is all this ? if one should answer him according to his folly , saying , and coveteous Clergy men should , me thinks , be not much against it , if it ranken Church-yards that the Parsons horse may have the bigger pasture , I wish they have not a trick to favor it , &c. were it not as wise a wish as the other ? but I spare him , lest I be like him , though if he be not answered according to his folly , I fear the man may be so wise in his own conceit as to suppose his folly to be wisdome . Furtherwhat great store of small stir doth the man make about a warm bath , wondering much where it should be prepared in private or in the Church , and what stir it would require ? [ as if it were more difficult to build a bath a little wider , and a great deal lower then a font , then t is to build a steeple house ] and what room it would take ? [ as if the Church had rather retain her Rome then be rob'd of her room , in removing that Romish relique of infants sprinkling ] and how dangerous this hot bath may prove too , and become such a cooling card as may soon make men repent of the baptism of repentance , unlesse they run home quickly , or be brought to bed before the people [ as if it were more impossible to bath in baptism without danger , difficulty , and immodesty , then it is to bath ( as thousands do ) in order to meer health and pleasure . ] What frivolous quibling is all this ? what is the man made of brown paper , and fit for nothing , but to sit by the fire side in a pair of slippers , that his body may be baptized , neither in cold water nor warm , but it must needs be his death without more ado ? I speak this not as intending to answer as Mr. Tombes doth , but to note Mr. Baxters fidlings , for whether bathing in cold water be a remedy against diseases or no , I am not so far a Physitian as to know ; Mr. Tombes saies it is against some , and Mr. Baxter very wisely confutes him by confessing the same , saying onely , First it is no universal remedy . Secondly few diseases have cold bathes appointed them , it should seem therefore some have , and whether there be necessity to baptize in cold water or no I say not , Mr. Tombes saies no , and indeed I see not how degrees of cold , and heat in the element can well vary the nature of the ordinance ; but this I say at least , there is no necessity that I know to baptize in warm ; for my part I am one , who , as grievous as Christs commandement is to Mr. Baxter , do winter , and sommer usually baptize in rivers and ponds , nor shall I go about to scape his scrape , or Mr. Cooks either , ( who as if a man were undone presently if but dipt in cold water and weather , [ cryes out of freezing , starving , choaking , stifling , death , murder &c. ) by balking one bit of the truth in this point , or disowning the way of dipping in cold water and weather , for which dispensation sith t is , as I have proved , and Mr. Ba. cannot disprove ▪ the ordinance of Christ for all Nations at all times , as people happen to be converted in them , I know no season unseasonable , no time at all untimely , save when it is dispensed to one in time of infancy , nor would it be then untimely , as tedious as it is , any more then circumcision , that was a farre more bloody businesse , were it strictly injoined to be dispensed to infants as that was , and as this is to believers at riper years : as for all the paines Mr. Baxter bestows against it , Improving Mr. Cooks argument with all his might , it is all meer babble and bawbling , he tells us it is a desperate conclusion , and a vile answer to say that if it be Gods way hee 'l save our lives , how probable soever the danger may seem , and that it is to begge the question . I answer , for my part I beg no question of him , for I have proved the question already , and can prove to his face that dipping is Gods way , and will not be beholding to him to grant it , and being so if this be to be vile and desperate , to conclude that God will save our lives in his own way . I le be more vile and desperate yet , and conclude with the three worthies , that for Gods way sake ventured one a baptism more bitter then this viz. baptismum flaminis not fluminis with fire , not water , more hot then this is cold , our God is able to save our lives , but if not , be it known unto Mr. Baxter and all men that we are willing , when we must , to loose them in , and for his way . He tells us God hath appointed no ordinance contradictory to his great and moral commands , and that we might as well have said to the disciples if it were Gods command to keep the Sabboth ( he should have said Sabbath , had he either known the Hebrew , or remembred himself , for saboth is another thing , for sabbath is rest , but saboth , or sabaoth is hosts as we may see in these places Mat. 12.8 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Rom. 9.26 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) they need not have rub'd the ears of Corn , for God could have sustained them without , if it were a duty , yet when it is inconsistent with a greater duty , it is at that time a sin , for it is alwayes a sin to prefer a lesse duty before a greater , but the duty of self preservation is a natural , moral duty , and baptizing but positive . As if circumcision were not as contrary to the duty of self-preservation as dipping in water , as if the Priests profaning the sabbath by servile work , were not as contradictory to the moral command ( as your very selves call it ) of Sabbath observation , as either of those to self-preservation , and yet when all is done all these were to be done , and none of these contradictory to the other neither , for in very deed God never commanded sabbath-observations so strictly , as that the ordinance of the dayly sacrifice should be neglected , yea and the life not onely hazzarded , but utterly lost , and laid down for Christs name sake and the Gospels ; he tells us that the duty of self-preservation is a moral natural duty , and baptizing but positive , I tell him again he saies as much in that , as I desire he should say , to the confirming of our tenet , for if baptizing be a positive duty , so far as t is positive it must take place against the other , a positive command being to be obeyed rather then self to be favoured in any wise , in any case whatsoever : God gave Abraham a positive command to slay his son , therefore that being positive , and the favouring and sparing of himself and his son , though moral and natural , yet but suppositive , i. e. to be lookt at so far onely as God lent him leave to injoy his son , it must be done , and the other let alone , God must be trusted , and his will obeyed , and the saving of his son must give way to the slaying of him : the positive duty of killing him being the greater , and to be preferred before the other , and the sparing him being inconsistent with this , though elsewise a duty , yet would have been at that time a sin . In that therefore he yields baptism to be a positive command , as if self-preservation were not so , he yields us more then we are willing to take of him , for howbeit for the most part it is positive , and therefore , so far as such , to be observed , without respect to the ill consequences of it to the lifeward , yet verily I question my self , though I find no expresse exemption from baptism in any case , whether there be not ( yea it is certain there are ) some cases , wherein the forbearance of the dispensation may , yea and must be dispenst with , but those are not the coldnesse of the water and weather , but the utter impossibility of the persons submitting to it , of whom else it is required , or his being bard from it , either as the thief on the crosse was , or by imprisonment , or by some such absolute sicknesse or weaknesse as confines persons necessarily to their beds , and puts them out of capacity and ability to betake themselves , where it may be done as it ought , I am willing to modify Mr. Baxters rigid epithete of a positive command , whereby he denominates baptism , so far as to spare persons in these cases and respects , and to stile baptism a duty but suppositive i. e. a thing that necessarily must be done , if either possibly , or conveniently it may be done ; but if it cannot , may be let alone : but this proves not that self-preservation must be alwaies prefer'd before baptism , for then it need never be obeyed at all , there being no time , wherein it can be done with so little seeming tediousnesse , and disease to a mans self , but that self will willingly excuse it self from obeying it , by pleading the duty of self-preservation . This duty of self-preservation hath couzened as honest a man as Mr. Baxter ere now , and it couzens the whole Priesthood to this hour , who generally suppose that God is no further to be served , then self may be preserved , hence no pay no preach , no countenance from the magistracy , no continuance in their ministry , but for selfs sake they turn still with the times , but no faster ; as if they durst trust God no further then they see him , and this was the plea , whereby Peter would fain have put Christ beside a duty that he foresaw would be dangerous , for Christ and himself too : but Christ gave him no great thanks for his labor , far be it from thee Lord quoth he , to go to Ierusalem and suffer ; by no means let this be : he thought he did well to rebuke Christ for owning the Gospel in that case , wherein he must expose himself to suffer , but get thee behind me Satan saith Christ , thou art an offence , thou savourest not the things of God , but those that be of men , thou thinkest as if he should say that self must be favoured , before positive duty be performed , that the life must be saved , and the gospel obeyed no further then is consistent with self-preservation , but I tell you saith he , that if any man will be my disciple he must deny himself , and take up his crosse and follow me . for he that will save his life i. e. discharge no duty that may prove dangerous to his life , shall lose it , but he that will lose his life for my name sake , and the Gospel , shall save it , Mat. 16.11 . to 26. if Paul had stood so much upon the point of self-preservation , and counted his life so dear unto himself , as Mr. Baxter seems to do his , he would have harkned to such as besought him to favour himself , and not have gon up to Ierusalem , where he knew not what should befall him , save that he knew that bonds and afflictions did there abide him , if he would there testifie to the Gospel Act. 20.22.23.24 , 21.22 . nor would he have exposed himself to so many hazzards and perils by sea and land , perils by water , perils by hunger and thirst , and cold and nakednesse , none of all which things moved him , that he might witnesse to the Gospel : He tattles to us that God must not be tempted , and that it was the divels trick to draw Christ under pretence of Scripture and trusting of God to have cast himself into danger of death ; who doubts of all this , but is it tempting to perform a positive command of God , and expose our selves to danger and difficulty in the discharge of our positive duty to him , because it is so to indanger our liues by doing that , which we have no call to , nor warrand for , and which is absolutely sin , and hath not the least dram of duty in it at all ? it is true it would have been but pretence of Scripture , and trusting of God in Christs casting himself from the pinacle of the Temple , but dare he saie there is ▪ but pretence of Scripture and trusting of God in submitting to his own ordinance of baptism ? is there no more word to warrant us to be baptized , and to trust in God , and to expect his protection in the execution of that so absolute a command , then there is to warrand the execution of our selves , which God universally forbids , and that on no more ground then the bare bidding of the devil ? who would think a mininister should be so moped as to make these two a like warrantable ? it was the divels trick therefore to draw Christ under pretence of Scripture and trusting of God to self-execution against duty ; and whether it be Mr. Baxters trick onely , or the divels in him to draw men under pretence of Scripture and tempting of God to self-preservation so far as not to trust God in the discharge of duty , is not amisse for Mr. Baxter to examine for that it savours not of spirit but of flesh it is so sure that it needs no examination . If therefore it were indeed so dangerous to be dipt , as is imagined by Mr. Cook and Mr. Baxter , yet I see no word of Christ willing a declension of the dispensation . But what if this be but a meer Chimaera of these mens coining , how much lesse are we then excused in our non-submission ? and yet such and no other will it be found to be at last by then we have sounded this most murderous mater to the bottom . For as to Mr. Baxters dismall divination of the hideous consequences that are ( if you will believe him ) as it were entaild to this course of constant dipping , and his composed catalogue of Chronicall diseases viz. Catarrhes , obstructions , Apoplexies , Lethargies , Palsies , all Comatous diseases , Cephalalgies , Hemicranies , Phthises , debilitie of the stomach , Crudities , Feavers , Disentaries , Diarrhaeas , Colicks , Iliack passions , Convulsions , Spasmes , Tremores , and all Hepatick , Splenetick , pulmoniack distempers , and Hippocondriacks also . All which to what end he hath Nomen-clattered together here I know not , unlesse to make himself , whilest he denies Mr. Tombs to be a Physitian , seem to be a smatterer in the Art of Physick ; as to that pittifull piece of proof I say , together with that formidable lecture Mr. Cook reads us concerning freezing and suffocation , it is ridiculous and frivilous fibbling , to fray faint hearted folks with , from finding out that straight gate , and narrow way that leads to life : but a few will find it for all this , especially when they shall find their so much believed Mr. Baxter to be such a flat false accuser as he is of this way of truth . Hear therefore o ye doters on Mr. Baxters deep divinity ; he talks ( if you will believe him ) as if it were little lesse then impossible that persons should be dipped in cold weather in cold water , and not be killed suddenly by hundreds and by thousands , or at least not be cast into some Chronical disease , which within a while must be an occasion of their death ; whereas there are hundreds if not thousands alive at this hour even in this cold Countrey , as they call it , many if not most of which have past through that sharp service in the sharpest seasons , conversion falling out as ordinarily in winter as in summer , whose present health both proves the falsnesse , and reproves the madnesse of your prophet . Yea I have cause to know a little better then every one , and a little more then Mr. Baxter in this , Expertus loquor , I speak by experience , against which no Argument of his availes , I have seen since my five or six years converse among the commonly called Anabaptists many a one baptized totally in cold watet and weather too by others , besides toward two hundred by my silly self , many of which have come forth covered , though not with yce , as Mr. Cook phrases it out , yet with that water which yce truly covered but just before , yet never saw I any one so baptized in all that time , who was not , if not better in meer bodily respects , yet at least as well after it as before ; he tells you ( if you will believe him ) that totall dipping is for nothing but to dispatch men out of the world that are burdensome , but then I wonder how the Creature called Anabaptist , that is so burthensome to Mr. Baxter , doth not dy out of the way by hundreds and thousands , and so save him and others that labour of dispute against their growth , but rather grow from hundreds into thousands so fast that they are not likely to be dispatcht out of the world , till they are such a burthensom stone as will press them to death , i. e. the whole Priesthood , that is troubled with them . He tells you ( if you will believe him ) that dipping will destroy men except they be preserved by Miracles , why else doth he say ( speaking specially as to this ordinance of dipping ) God hath not appointed ordinances in his Church that will destroy men except they be preserved by miracles ; now if it be not so as hee saies viz. that it is a miracle to be dipped and not destroyed , then what a strange man is he to say so ? but if it be so indeed , viz. a Miracle to be dipped and not destroyed , then ●o fools and slow of heart to believe the truth , though the Lord confirm it to you with Miracles , which are wrought day by day amongst the Disciples , who are dipped Winter and Summer as occasion is , yet are not destroyed ! Yea whereas Mr Baxter dares say that in Cities like London , and amongst Gentlewomen that have been tenderly brought up , and antient people , and weak people , and shopkeepers , especially women that take but little of the cold aire , dipping in cold weather would in the course of nature kill hundreds and thousands suddenly , or cast them into some Chronical disease , I dare say that in the City of London there is hundreds , if not thousands dipped in cold water , and as it happens , in cold weather too , many of which are Gentlewomen tenderly brought up , and antient and weak people , and shop keepers , and women that take but little of the cold aire , and yet by the course of grace they are preserved from perishing by either cold or suffocation : yea and out of the City of London too , for these hands have baptized of all these sorts in the Countrey , viz. Gentlewoman most tenderly brought up , very antient people , very weak people , shopkeepers , and specially two women both alive at this day , which I 'l become a fool in telling you of them sith Mr. Baxter compells me , did take so little of the cold aire that one of them , if my memory fail me not , and if I were truly informed , was but once out of her house in 5 year before , by reason of a dropsy ; and that was with much adoe , and but a little before her dipping , and to hear this doctrine , notwithstanding which weaknesse , and such swellings that she was wellnigh twice as bigg as now she is , and scarce able to betake her self to the water , she was dipped , and was rather better in body , then worse after it , and after sending for some elders of the Church to pray over her , and anoint her with oile in the name of the Lord according to his own institution in that behalf Iam. 5. was within a while so asswaged in her swellings , that she is now as sl●nder as in former times , before ever he distemper took hold on her . The other had scarce been out of her Chamber in two years together , and durst not dip her finger in cold water , and was ready to have her breath stopt with the least annoyance that could be yet was dipped , and was better after it ( through Gods mercy ) for a pretty while so as to go abroad : though she now is weak , and much what as she used to be before . If then you will not believe the words of God , believe the works , believe the Miracles , for it is by Miracles that they are preserved who are dipt in cold water and not destroyed saies Mr. Baxter , which if it be then God hath wrought very many Miracles among the men you nickname Anabaptists of late , for they are constantly preserved from perishing by either cold , or suffocation : yea I have known many a one better in body , but I nere knew any one , of whom I could safely say they were the worse in body or Soul for being dipt , save such as turned from the truth after turning to it , for the latter end with such indeed is worse then their begining . Yet how rashly do these men shoot their bolts to the murdering of the truth , whilst they make the ordinary practise of it no lesse then flat murder it self , and that undeniably to any understanding man , unless there be a preservation by a miracle ; for else it destroyes men quoth Mr. Baxter , it directly tendeth to overthrow mens lives in the course of Nature , it will kill hundreds and thousands of them ; but if a man scape perishing with cold , yet how can he ( i. e. how is it possible for him ) to escape being choaked quoth Mr. Cook and stifled with the water , if he must be plunged over head to signify his death to sin ? 2. Secondly kept under water to signify his burial ? How can a man escape choaking Sirs , if he be put and kept under the water ? why I tell you that either he can , or else he cannot , if he can , why then he can , and so Mr. Cook is confuted ; if he cannot in the course of nature , without miracle , then it being certain that thousands do scape choaking , it should seem God by Miracle secures them , and yet for all this nor Mr. Baxter , nor Mr. Cook are convinced ; whether it be the more shame for them or no not to be so , I leave it to themselves , and all understanding men to consider . Or perhaps Mr. Cook means how can a man escape choaking if he be kept three daies under water , for so quoth he the disciple must , as Christ abode three daies under water , if Christs burial be represented , but not onely his own party , for mora sub aqua quantu lacunque saith Tilenus , quantumvis momentanea saith Bucan , abode under the water for never so little a while doth most lively resemble Christs Burial , but his own practise confutes him clearly in this , for as the Ministers hand with which Dr. Featley resembles Christs burial is not dipt three daies together under water , so the insusion of water upon the face of the infant , which why may it not represent the burial as well as dipping quoth Mr. C. p. 17. doth not last for three daies together neither . Thus you see how well Mr. Baxter and Mr. Cook have quitted themselves in their proof of our practise to be murder , and against the sixth commandement , and what high and mighty reason Mr. Baxter hath to accuse us to the magistrate as murderers , and to suggest it his duty to him out of Mr. Craddock , to restrain us to save the lives of his subjects , and not to suffer but to destroy us . Rantist . But if you give way to Mr. Baxter to answer for himself , he clears himself of moving the magistrates to destroy you ; I never moved Magistrate or people , saith he p. 246. either to drive them out of the Land , or to destroy them . Baptist. What an egregious untruth is there ? doth he not say here if those that make it Religion to Murder themselves , and urge it on their consciences as their duty are not to be suffered in a common-wealth any more then High-way Murderers , then judg how these Anabaptists that teach the necessity of such dipping are to be suffered . Is not this to tell men that we are no more to be suffered in a Common-wealth then high way Murderers , which high way Murderers Mr. Baxters conscience I dare say desires that they may not be suffered , but may suffer no lesse then hanging : and yet dares he say he stirs not up the Magistrate against us ? I know not what is to excite the Magistrate against persons if this be not , to charge them to be as guilty as high way Murderers , which if he judges us to be indeed , he is bou●d both in law and conscience to prosecute us to the very death , but if he in his conscience judges us not to be such ( as oh how after to the contradiction of himself in this doth he judge more charitable of us then so e. g. p. 310. where he saith who dare think their error to be such ? and yet such is high way murder when lived and died in , as concludeth them from grace ) then I marvel how he dare charge us so high as to rank us with , and represent us as bad , and as unworthy to be suffered in a Commonwealth , as high way Murderers themselves , especially since it remains yet on his part unproved , that ever any disciple dyed in the time of dipping , or by occasion of submission to that dispensation . Rantist . If there be not such danger of death to the Baptized , yet the Baptizers may be murderers of themselves , for it is evident that if the Minister must go into the water with the party , it will certainly tend to his death ( saies Mr. Baxter p. 137 ) though they may scape that go in but once ; for weak Students to make a frequent practise of going into the water , it will cure their ich after novelties , and allay the heat of their intemperate zeal : therefore me thinks ( saies Mr. Baxter ) the Ministers should have regard to themselves . Baptist. Me thinks so too , or else they are not like their wonted selves , for self was ever yet for ought I see regarded by most Nationall Ministers much more then truth . But I pray Sirs how certainly will it tend to your Ministers death , any more then it doth to the death of our Ministers that do dispense it , among whom I have known men full as sickly , though not half so selfish as you , that have often dipped men in the sharpest seasons , and yet never lay by it so much as once , but your ministers are weak students indeed , that are studyed no further in common sense and reason , and experienced no more in cold , and other Gospel hardships , which Paul was skilled in , then to think that genum tenus must certainly and unavoidably make an end of them , unless the Lord by a miracle deliver them , and such as are fitter to make Curates of for Gentlemens chappels of ease then to take care of the poor afflicted Church of Christ. Rantist . Well , if it do not prove to be murder , and so against the eighth commandement , yet I am sure it will prove to be adultery to dip naked , as they say you do , and so flatly against the seventh , for either you dip naked or you do not , if you do not , then you cannot dip the whole body : but if you do , if that be not so shame fully sinful as is scarce fit to be named among Christians , I know not what is : and this Mr. Cook and Mr. Baxter doth intimate to us , whose words I shall also intimate to you at the present . I would know with these new dippers saith Mr. Cook , whether the parties to be doused and dipped may be baptized in a garment , or no ? if they may , then happily the garment may keep the water from some part of the body , and then they are not rightly , baptized , for the whole man say they must be dipped . Again , I would ask what warrand they have for dipping , or baptizing garments more then the Papists have for baptizing bells ? therefore belike the party must be naked , and multitudes present , as at Johns baptism , and the parties men and women at ripe years , being able to make confession of their faith and repentance ; yet though they both sin against the sixth commandement indangering life , and against all common honesty and civility , and Christian modesty required in the seventh commandement , they must have this way observed , because they fancy it the onely baptism : shall we think saith he , this was the baptism of John , Christ and his Apostles ? thus he , And saies Mr. Baxter , Another wickednesse in their manner of baptizing is their dipping persons naked , as is very usuall with many of them , or next to naked , which is usuall with the modestest that I have heard of , against which I argue thus . If it be a breach of the seventh commandement , thou shalt not commit adultery , ordinarily to baptize the naked , then it is intollerable wickednesse , and not Gods ordinance , but so it is , therefore . The Minor is thus evident saith he , that commandement forbids all incitements to uncleannesse , and all immodest actions , but to baptize women naked is an immodest action , and an incitement to uncleanness therefore , and to this he saies Mr. Tombes answered it was thought no immodesty in former times ; but though it may seem no immodesty in Countries where they still go naked , yet among such as are not savages me thinks it should saith Mr. Baxter ; if Mr. T. could baptize naked all the Maids in Bewdly , and think it no immodesty , he hath lost his common ingenuity , and modesty with the truth . Thirdly , every good man is to watch over his heart , and to pray that he be not led into temptation , and would it be no snare and temptation to Mr. T. to be frequently imployed in baptizing maids naked ? me thinks the very mention of it saith he , could I avoid it is immodest , and what it may be to all sorts of spectators I stand not to expresse ; Besides all this saith he , it is likely to raise jealousies in Ministers wives and others , and so to foment continual dissentions , and it will make the ministry a scandal , and make the people look on them as so many vile incontinent men , if auricular confession brought that infamy , no wonder if ordinary baptizing naked do it . Further , it would debauch the people , and bereave them generally of all common modesty , if once it growes into custom to behold each others nakednesse , and sure that practise is not of God , which so directly tends to bereave men of all common civility , modesty , ingenuity and humanity : Moreover , it would make the worship of God ridiculous , would not vain young men come to a baptizing to see the nakednesse of maids , and make a meer jest and sport of it ? Moreover the practise of baptizing naked would bring a general reproch upon the Christian profession among the enemies of it , and discredit the truth , for when Christians have the repute of Adamites , who will turn Christians ? sober men will be loath to take a woman to wife that hath the impudency to shew her self naked to an assembly , and would esteem it next to taking one from the stewes . If they shall say to all this , as Mr. Tombes said in his Sermon , it is not necessary they be naked , I reply saith he , First if it be next to naked the difference is not great , and the former inconveniences will follow , and God would not have the Iewes go up by steps on his altar , lest their nakednesse be discovered thereon , Cam was curst for beholding his fathers nakedness , Christ tells us it is adultery to look on a woman to lust after her ; the Scripture forbids filthiness , and uncleannesse , as not to be named among Saints . Secondly , such as would have them wholly , or mostly covered differ from their partners , and to dip them covered will overthrow their own arguments ▪ for the necessity of washing the whole body , for this will be no washing but a soaking or steeping , if they stay in long enough , it may wash the garment , but the body will be but infused in all likelihood , and so I leave this unsavory practise , which were it not necessary to confute I should not meddle with it . But in these last cases we dispute not against bare words , but against experiences , and known practises , for their naked baptizing is a known thing , and the wickednesse that hath followed on some , and that some have died on 't , and I would saith he , have others more wise , and escape both dangers , onely let me say saith he , thus much more that it is very suspicious , and to me unsavory that Mr. T. should say no more , but that it is not necessary they should be baptized naked , and in cold water , as if he took it to be lawful , but not necessary : me thinks he should rather have given his testimony against it , as sinful , and expressed some dislike , if he he do indeed dislike it , and judge it sinful , and if he do not , I dare say he is very far gone : one may see what you are by the words of these men , who have here set you out in your colours , so that I hope all , that read or hear what they say , will rather abhor then adore your dipping doings , and if you were not a people past all shame and sense of sin , me thinks you should abhorre your selves in dust and ashes , at the remembrance of your abhominable baseness in this particular ; yea give me leave to say one word more to you , who were a minister once that did baptize infants , and it is the words of Mr. Baxter to Mr. Tombes p. 255. I conjecture that by that time you have baptized half as many maids and women naked in a cold River , as you have baptiz'd infants like an officiating Priest , your feet will either take cold , or your heart will take heat : if you would be ruled by me you should not indeavour to introduce into the Church a custome for every young minister or neighbour , so much as to look on a bathing Bathsheba or Susanna , least to those without , the name of a Church and a stewes , a Presbyter and a Pander , a Christian and a fornicator , do prove Synonimaes . Baptist. To those without ? I wonder who those are ? those without your Church must be out of the Nation too for ought I know , and cannot well see what is done by you in it : but to let that passe . Here is thunder enough , but no lightning , a shrill sound but an empty barrel ; such is Mr. Baxters book indeed , specially this twofold fardle about murder and adultery , in which whether there be more noise or non-sense I know not , but sure I am there is ten times more twittle-com-twattle then truth : this doctrine would make a terrible rumbling in a Country Church as they say , and make all the people amazed to hear what manner of men these Anabaptists be , but he that sleeps there with his eyes open , will be s●und no more at the hearing of this clamor , then by the barking of the bells in the steeple ; I must needs confesse that this is matter of weight indeed , and a stone is heavy , and the sand weighty , but a fooles wrath is heavier then them both : this soon shot bolt is big enough to hurt where it hits , but as it happens it hits not us : and so happens to hurt them most that mannage it ; as for us , against whom it is managed , it rejoices us rather then otherwise , sith it reproaches and reviles , and saies all manner of evil against us falsely for Christs sake Mat. 5.11.12 . 1 Pet. 4.13.14.15 . if our dipping were such evil doing i. e. murder and adultery as these men say it is , we had reason to hang down our heads indeed , and might well be ashamed in suffering from them in this particular , but sith as Paul said Act. 24.13 ▪ they cannot prove the things whereof they accuse us , we are not ashamed , but glorifie God on this behalf . Of these two accusers of the brethren Mr. Cook is more candid , and a little more modest then the other , and yet he utters so much that he hath much reason to be ashamed of it , for howbeit he does not so audaciously charge us with that foul fact of naked dipping as the other doth , yet by some simple supposals , First , that persons cannot be rightly baptized by dipping with a garment on [ as if they may not be put under , and covered and buried therein cloathed aswell as naked , and as if a soaking or steeping in water ( Mr. Baxters bald conceit of our dipping ) were not a washing or burying . ] Secondly that it is as unwarrantable to baptize garments , as t is for the Papists to baptize bells [ as if those that baptize persons in garments , did as directly , and intentionally baptize garments , as the papists do baptize bells , or as if it were more unwarrantable for us to wet the cloathes , that persons are baptized in , when we baptize their bodies , then t is for the priests to wet the head cloaths of infants when they rantize their faces . ] By such silly supposals I say as these that there can be no true totall dipping , unless the persons be uncloathed , he subtly insinuates the world into a certain supposition , at least a shrewed suspition that dipping naked is the onely baptism dispensed among us , for which hee 'l once be ashamed ; but as for Mr. Baxter he is so uningenuous , impudent and uncivilly foolish in this present parcel of his , you have here spread before us , that I professe against it as having in it much falsenesse , and more immodesty then I ever saw expressed at the totall dipping of any person that ever I saw dipped in my life : for he not only makes a long supervacaneous discourse of his dislike of dipping women and maids naked ( in which is such a needlesse and over often nomination of those termes too , as tends more to the offending of chast , and corrupting of unchast consciences , then to any use of edifying at all ) but also most rashly relates it to the whole world to be the usuall , ordinary known practise of a people , that are as abhorrent of such abominations as himself . As for his Argument it is a fallacy called Ignoratio Elenchi , for he concludes not the point in question , for they , who stand most for baptizing by totall dipping , are all ( for ought that ever I heard of ) as much against naked dipping as himself : yea so far are we all , ( if any had been otherwise minded Mr. Baxter would surely have assigned them , whose design was to vilifie us what he could , so far are we all from countenancing such a practise , that I dare , in the name of all the Churches of the Baptists through England , declare their unanimous utter detestation of it , in Mr. Baxters own words , viz. that it is a breach of the seventh Commandment , an intollerable wickednesse , an immodest action , an incitement to uncleannesse , likely enough to raise jealousies in Ministers wives , yea and other womens husbands too , and so to foment continuall dissention , a means to debauch people , and bereave them of all common civility , modesty , ingenuity , and humanity , to turn Gods worship into contempt , and make it meerly ridiculous , to bring a general reproach upon the Christian profession among all the enemies thereof , yea amongst the most sober and discreet , to discredit the truth , and prejudice men against it ; yea verily t is scandal , reproach and discredit enough , in that it is but belied by Mr. Baxter to be so base , how much more , and more justly would it be reproached , if his reports were as true as they are full of falsehood ; we I say acknowledg the practise of naked dipping to be as bad , as Mr. Baxter proves it to be , therefore quorsum haec ? to what purpose doth he with such prolixity proceed to prove , what no sober minded man of either party doth deny ? This is aliud a negato ; a plain absurd a berration from the question , which is not whether it be a sin ordinarily to dip naked or no ? but whether we ordinarily use that kind of dipping ? The first which none doubts of , he indeavours to make evident as one that light ▪ a candle , whereby to shew men that the sun shines . The second , which is unknown utterly among us , he proclaims to be our usual , notorious , known practise : but he offers no proof of this at all . Such silly Sophistry as this Mr. Baxter uses also in almost every of these Arguments , whereby he professes to disprove our practise as unwarrantable , concluding all along another point than that in question ; for whereas our tenet is that persons at years , professing to believe , of what parents so ever born , are to be baptized , he most simply , and sinisterly concludes against us , as he supposes , in a matter of four or five Arguments that the children of Christians may not be baptized when they come to years , and that this practise of baptizing of Christians children is utterly unconsistent with the Rule of Christ : as for us we say as much , neither is it our practise or opinion to baptize Christians children at age , upon that account meerly , as they are Christians children any more then the children of them that are no Christians , unlesse they professe to be believers and Christians themselves as their parents do , and upon that account , viz. as they professe to believe , we baptize hea●hens children as soon as them . Thus the man busies himself beyond measure in beating the aire , and wearyes himself ad ravim usque , and his reader ad nauseam in refuting non entities , about the proof of such things as no body denies , and per ignorationem Elenchi concludes that , which is as clear to his Antagonists ▪ as to himself , and leaves that utterly undemonstrated , which is the onely thing denyed by them , the absurdity of whose way he pretends it to be his businesse to discover . For verily those , against whom he fights under the name of Anabaptists , are as clear in it as he can be , that no Christians child qua talis is to be baptized when he comes to years , saving upon the same account , on which an heathens child may be at years so baptized as well as he , viz. his own personal profession of faith , and desire of baptism . Again they hold dipping naked to be intollerable wickednesse as well as he , yet these things he be labours himself not a little in making good , but that which is denyed indeed , viz. that it is our usual practise to dip women and maids naked , this he charges us with most stoutly , most desperately , and tells a tale of us most absurdly to the base abusing of himself , the true Church , and the whole world also , but he is so impertinent , and impertinently imployed in proving naked dipping to be a sin , that he either forgets , or has no while to prove it to be practised by us at all , But Sirs who , but he that sees the right eye of the idol shepheard to be utte●ly darkned , would ever think that from such a man as Mr. Ba. desires to be accounted , such a piece of paultry should proceed , that such a messe of balterdash as here is should ere be broached by him , that such a mad report of the walkers in truth should be publisht by one that goes for a publisher of the truth among thousands of deluded people ? Me thinks I see Satan gone forth and become a lying spirit in the mouthes of the prime among their prophets , perswading and in the just judgement of God prevailing with multitudes of meer formal Gospellers to be strongly deluded , and to believe lies out of their mouthes that they may be damn'd , because they receive not the truth , that was troden down for 42 monthes , and now rises again and shines forth , in the love therof that they may be saved , but have pleasure in unrighteousness and superstition and have no pleasure in the truth . Me thinks I see National Ministers of singular piety in peoples eyes prove men of singular pravity , singularly bewitched into an implicit belief of the base tales that vain fellowes raise of the way of truth , and singularly bewitching their people into implicit belief of them , that so it is as they say , that neither Priest nor people may obey the truth , but both stumble , and fall and be broken , and snared , and taken , and ashamed each of other in the end . Good Lord how is the practise of the truth made a reproach unto thy people , and a derision dayly ? for I have heard the defaming of many , report say they , and we will report it , possesse the pulpit and make the Priest believe it , and then all the Country shall ring out , and the people soon be diabolized into the faith on 't ; but hear ye rude reprochers of that people , that are reprovers of the wayes , whereby you run a whoring from the Lord , you shall not prevail by such sleights , such plausible pretences , you shall be greatly ashamed , you shall not prosper , and , unlesse you repent of your belying the truth of God , your everlasting confusion , shall never be forgotten . It is too bad to be credulous to flying reports , worse so violently to vent them , worst of all malevolently to invent them , I dare not say , nor dare I deem Mr Ba. to be guilty of the last , but of the two first I cannot clear him , sith I perceive that he takes it for a truth that we ordinarily dip naked , and thereupon disputes against it as our usuall practise , and then not confidently onely , but of a certain relates to the whole world that it is no bare word , nor any doubtful thing , but an experience , a known practise : if he can clear himself he hath leave to do it for me , who also summon him in the name of Christ Jesus , whose true disciples he hath done such dispite to ( the Lord keep him from despiting the spirit of grace ) the people of whose love are the people of his wrath , to prove it our practise ordinarily to dip naked , yea to produce but one instance of any women o● maids that ever he saw dipt naked in all his daies , and I le abate him much of that I now accuse him of in the court of my conscience , but if he say as indeed he does in effect that he never saw any dipt at all , whilst p. 134. he saies that all that ever he saw baptized had water powred on them , how can he say Epertus loquor , it is his experience , he having never so much as seen such a thing , unlesse it were upon the brazen fac't front of Featleyes book , where he fasly , feignedly , and filthily describes men and women dipping in that fashion , or else upon the Titlepage of Ephraim Pagit , who there paltrily pictures out this people practising , thus and there I believe he hath experienced it , or if he only hath it from the the mouthes of such as heard it from the mouthes of others , who never saw it , but receive it by tradition as well as he , and that originally too from the mouthes of some that made it , and in such a manner very likely it was first bruted , for I am perswaded there was never such a thing done of late in England unless by some Arch Knave and Arrant Whore in way of mockage to the Gospel , which is rather a glory , then a shame to Christ his truth , then let Mr. Ba. bear the blame of his blind blaspheming the people of the everliving God. Or if he know indeed that such a thing as baptizing maids and women naked hath been done in serious wise by any persons , I further challenge him to make some proof of it , and to print the names of such men as have done it ; and such maids and women that have suffered themselves to be dipped naked , and the names of such credible eye witnesses as will testify it as in the sight of God , which if he can , though I shall not give place to him thereupon so as to be satisfyed therby for his overlashing in asserting it to be our practise to dip naked , or for condemning and denominating a whole party , much more their cause , by the defects & abuses of some persons whom the cause disclaimes , for then there was 12. devils because one among the twelve , and then what an Augaean stable is your Church of England by many members of which notorious roguery is committed every houre ? Yet I shall satisfy him so far as to undertake that the Church , or Churches where such are shall declare every such person as hath wrought such abomination , incommunicable without solemn repentance for that sordid practise , or be themselves incommunicable by all other Churches . But I beli●ve he cannot do it , though I cannot positively possibly prove a Negative , much more am I confident that he cannot make good his charge against us , viz. that it is our ordinary and usual practise : for besides no lesse then between one and two hundred , which in grosse I can ghesse at , which with these hands I have baptized , I have seen with these eyes many a one more baptized by others , yet never did I see male or female baptized naked to this hour , nor next to naked neither , if I understand Mr. Baxs . meaning in that bawbling phrase of next to naked ; Yea I suppose I may safely say my converse for these 5 years together and upward hath been with them that are commonly called Anabaptists , and my businesse hath been for so long time at least among that people more then I perceive Mr. Baxs . hath , and much more then among any other people , being more or lesse acquainted with a score of their Congregations , yet howbeit Mr. Blake flings a little at us too , and hath his fingers so far in this spatter , as to say page 8. Those that have put a kind of necessity upon dipping have spoken much of being received naked ●n baptism , I never heard the least speech of such a thing , nor a syllable among them to such a purpose . And if Mr. Ba. cannot prove it to be our ordinary known practise to dip naked then in the name of the Lord Jesus before whom he and I shall shortly both appear , I intreat Mr. Ba. who as concerning zeal yet persecutes the Church of God , & poures out reproach upon true Christians , giving his voice for them with as much modesty as Haman Est. 3.8 . as for high way Murderers , alias that they may all suffer execution being through blindnesse and excaecation exceedingly mad against them , that of an ignorant Saul he would become a seeking , a searching , a seeing , a preaching Paul of the faith , which he hitherto destroies : and though he verily thinks with himself that he ought to do what he does against the truth , yet I beseech him to know that he is but as others have been b●fore him , zealous of God , but not according to knowledg , sith it is but of the Traditions of his Fathers Gal. 1.14 , And sith he avers from his heart page 129. that for his part he neither knowes the day nor year when he began to be sincere , no nor the time when he began to professe himself a Christian , in which I believe him , if he mean a Christian in Scripture sense , I begg of him in the bowels of Christ Jesus , that he would now begin to be sine cerâ a Christian indeed , not by the halves , but altogether , for there is yet a mixture of much wax among his honey , and of much antichristianism in his Christianity , and as sure as he is ignorant when he began to professe to be a Christian , so sure I am that he never yet began to professe to be a Christian in truth , who knowes not that ever he was otherwise , but hath and holds his profession as the Turk and Jew do theirs viz. for the true one at a venture , because they were born and bred in it , and received it by Tradition onely from forefathers . And as he will prove himself to be what he professes to be viz. a hater of ignorant violence , so I advise him to be a hater also of violent ignorance , of which hateful quallity in my mind he hath as much as any of the greedy gang , Gangraena it self onely excepted , not excepting Dr. Featley , Dr. Bastwick , Mr. Bayliff , Mr Pagit , not any among the proud pack of Prelates , that most perheminently prate against the Gospel . And sith Mr. Ba. saies this much more that it is very suspicious , and to him unsavory that Mr. T. should say no more but that it is not necessary that they be baptized naked , as if he took it to be lawfull , though not necessary , and thinkes he should rather have given his Testimony against it as sinful , and expressed some dislike if he do indeed dislike , and judge it sinful , and if he do not he dare boldly say he is very far gone , let me say thus much more , that then it is as suspicious , and to me unsavory , that Mr. Ba. should say no more but that it is a breach of the seventh commandement , ordinarily to baptize the naked , as if he took it to be lawful to do it sometimes , but not ordinarily : me thinks he should giue his Testimony against it as sinful , to do it at all , and express some dislike if he do indeed dislike and judge it sinful , and if he do not , I dare boldly say he is gone farther in filth , then Mr. T. or any baptized person ever went yet , save such as are gone quite off from the way of truth to the dishonour of it since they owned it , whose sin yet ( the more shame for Mr. Ba. ) he in his next argument , laies to the truths charge , and theirs , who both own and honour it by abiding in it , who are lesse gladly , and more sadly sensible of their sins , and villanies then Mr. Ba. can be , by how much by reason of their lasciviuos wayes , which many follow , the way of truth they walk in is , as was foretold it should be 2 Pet. 2.1.2.3 . by Mr. Ba. and his admirers evil spoken of . But if Mr. Ba. shall still say it is suspicious and unsavory for Mr. T. to say the one , but not for himself to say the other , and will none of the foregoing advice to repent and be baptized , but rather reject the counsel of God against himself being not baptized , because he hath experience ( by hearsay ) that we baptize females naked , then a rod and a rod for the back of Mr. Baxter , who pardons to himself the same defects , wherein he holds others guilty , who so slenderly takes up every tattle against the truth , and proclaimes it for truth to the whole world , for the simple believeth every word , but the prudent man looks well to his going Prov. 14.15 a prudent man foresees evil and secures himself , but the simple passe on and are punished Prov. 22.3 . As for his next and last argument against us which he drawes from the judgments of God that ever follow us , wherein he jumbles all kinds of sectaries into the name of Anabaptists as the Antibaptists use commonly to do , witnesse Featley and others , and makes them bear the burden of all the mischiefs that were ever perpetrated by all the mad braind men in all the world , as Iohn of Leyden and all the rest of his ranting strain , it is scarce current consequence to say Gods judgements are upon a people , therefore that people are none of his , for all things come alike to all , & none knowes love or hatred by what is before him here Eccl. 8.14 . and the 9.1.2.3 . yet sith he speaks of ruinating judgements , let the consequence passe as valid , but then his minor is utterly false , for the Anabaptists are not all ruinated yet , nor will be till the Clergy are quite cashiered , as evident as it is that they have every where withered and suddenly come to nought heretofore , and since he speakes of spiritual judgements e. g. that practise saith he hath never helped , but hindred the work of God where it comes , nor hath God blest their ministry to conversion of soules as he hath other mens , but rather they have been instruments of the Churches scandal and misery . Secondly , that hath been the inlet to most other vile opinions , few stop at it but go much further , God hath usually given up their societies to notorious scandalous wicked lives , and conversations more then others that professe godlinesse , and never prospered them so far as to have any established Churches , which should credit the Gospel . I grant that some of these are sad emblems of a people none of Gods , onely Mr. Ba. hath here saddled the wrong asse , for this way of baptism hinders onely the work of mans Tradition , which would make void the commandement of God , but being it self the work and way of God , is hindred where ere it comes by Priestly malice , preaching Gods fear after precepts of men , nor hath God blessed the Nationall ministry to the true conversion of soules as he hath done theirs , but to the conversion of them to a Gospel of their own making , for repent and be baptized was the Gospel that Peter preached , and that is it that is now practised by us , and how many are converted and baptized accordingly is so evident , that it needs no proof at this hour , but repent and be not baptized is the Gospel the Priesthood preaches , and if you call that conversion , which indeed is confusion , we confesse their converts are more more then ours , such instruments of scandal and misery to the true Churches are the Priests in all places by their reproaches , nor is baptism the inlet of any vile opinions any more then the same was in the primitive times , wherein many that were baptized did turne hereticks , when they had done , as they do now , but what wise man then imputed it to their baptism ? and yet some of those opinions Mr. Ba. calls vile , will be proved to his conscience in due time to be the truth : yet many that are baptized do run out to very vile opinions ▪ and practises no better then their principles , and stop not there indeed as he saies , but go much further , and degenerate into wayes o● wickednesse more abominable then ever in former time , and of these Ranters Mr. Copp is none of the least attainers , whom Mr. Ba. p. 148. hath very well set forth in his colours , for I believe God in Iustice hath given him up , and many other besides him to more notoriousnesse of error and enormity , then ever any that profest godlinesse , But what then ? shall we impute that fault to his being baptized ? I trow not ; for howbeit Mr. Ba. so imagines , yet it was because he honoured not the truth , when he had owned it , nor walked in Christ after he had received him , in which case how often God gives over to strong delusions is evident , not only by the word , which declares that when men like not to retain God in their knowledge he oft gives them over unto vile affection , But also by sad experience in the world in these last times , wherein 2 Pet. 2.1 . 1 Tim. 4.1 . and the 2.3.1 . doctrines of divels are rife among them , that once owned the faith , yet the faith not a whit in fault for all that , but departure from the faith before expressed . And that the fall of these men is into worse then ever before , it is no argument against , but rather for the way they newly fall from , the sensuality of such as separate themselves from the true Churches in the later times , i. e. congregational after these are once separated from the false ones i. e. the nationall , being prophesied of 2 Pet. 2. Iude 19. of old , that it should be greater then that of all beastly men that were before them ; besides corruptio optimi pessima , the higher the rise into reformation , the more desperate the fall into deformation , of those that reform and prove deformed again : that greater depth of hell therefore men fall into that fall from us , proves the hight of our Churches to be neerer heaven , then that of yours , for if after they have escaped &c. 2 Pet. 2.20.21.22 . when Cop was in his standing in the Church of England , I remember very well , for I knew him better then then ever since , he had some bounds from conscience to his corruption , but having been once inlightned higher then Mr. Baxter ever was yet in the will and way of God , and tasted of the heavenly gift , and made a partaker of the holy spirit , and obeyed the truth as it is in Jesus , and yet fallen away , his conscience is seard with a hot iron , and I have small hope of his renewing against by repentance , who thus denies the Lord that bought him , and crucifies the Lord afresh , and is twice dead , pluckt up by the Roots , a raging wave of the sea foaming out his own shame . But what is all this to those that yet walk in truth of baptism , more then to warn them that they depart not from it , as he hath done , lest they come into the same condemnation with him ? doth it prove baptism to be the cause of that grosness that often followes , when a person is baptized ? in no wise , for his non abiding in the love of the truth ▪ and that doctrine of Christ gives God occasion to give over to the height of wickednesse . I appeal therefore to the conscience of Mr. Baxter , 1. Whether the Pope may not by as good consequence charge all these errors that are upon Protestanism , saying Thus , the Ptotestants stop not there , but run out further from Episcopacy to Presbytery , and to Independency , and so to Anabaptism , and so to all ? it is true , Protestanism is occasio or causa sine qua non , for such as sit still in the smoak of the Popes Traditions , are not acquainted with the new found fancies of the Ranter , But Protestanism is not the true cause . 2 : Whether Mr. Ba , be so well aware as he should be what time of day it is , when Peter and Iude point out these things so plainly ; and yet he wonders at them as a Mystery ? 3. Whether the few owning , and the few abiding in the true way of baptism , doth not prove it to be the streit and narrow way that leads to life , which few find ? 4. Whether he think we lay not to heart their misery and madnesse that run off from us as well as he , and strive not to warn and watch over them as much as he ? and if so , why he blames us more then himself , that , do what we can , so many run to ruin ? besides some he names were never baptized , though neer it , as Mr. Saltmarsh . 5. Whether it be just to load them that still stick to the truth , with the blame of all their blasphemies that go off from it ? T is true the way of truth will be evil spoken of by the Priest , by reason of the madnesse of the false Prophet 2 Pet. 2.2 . but that is ought let every reasonable man examine : The Rantizer renounces his sprinkling , and is baptized in truth , and after renounces that , and runs on to be a Ranter , and then all is reckoned to his baptism : poor truth may say quum nemini obtrudi potest , itur ad me : every one shifts it off from himself , and truth must carry the scandal , and baptism bear the burden of all : the Priest and his people are they by whom , the false Prophet and his people they by reason of whom the way we walk in is evil spoken of , but vae illis per quos , vae illis presertim propter quos , veritatis via blaspemabitur , quam optimum esset utrisque , si nati non fuissent : Mat. 18.7 . & 26.14 . 2 Pet. 2.2 . What force therefore is in this Argument to conclude against the truth of our way ? yea what absurdity is in all Mt. Baxters Arguments against us you see , in all which he sits beside the cushion , yea and indeed the whole bulk of them is nothing but a thing full of emptinesse . Rantist . I would fain see you answer that book as nothing as it is , I believe it is more then ever will be answered by any to any purpose . Baptist. First , there is a great part of his book needs no answering from us , being such an absurd aberration from what we hold and practise in contradistinction to him , to other things , which he undertakes to disprove , though we ( and who doth not ? ) do join with him fully in them , and do hold as he does , as namely , almost all those 7 or 8 Arguments from page 125. to page 138. wherein he spends himself mostly in declaring against judgements and practises , that are no more ours , nor any ones else , that I know of , more then his own : for who holds Christians children quâ Christians children , i. e. without their own personal profession of faith , and Christianity , in which case heathens children may be baptized also , are to be baptized when they come to years , any more then the children of heathens ? Again , who holds or practises such a thing as naked dipping of women and maids ? not I , nor any man breathing under heaven I imagin , nor will any wise man be coxcombd into the belief of it that t is our practice I hope , because Mr. Ba. disputes against it as ours , yet these are the main matters argl'd against well nigh in all those pages , yea if he prove the baptism of Christians children at years ordinarily to be against rule , t is fully sufficient against the Anabaptists , saith he , if we had not a word more against them , the man feigns adversaries to himself , and finds himself work with them , and takes on and layes about him like a Thatcher , and fights , and fences against his foes when he hath none at all about him . Secondly , much if not more then a third part of it , viz. from p. 262. to p. 286. consists almost universally in a particular private publike prate to Mr. Tombs in vindication of himself f●om Mr. Tombs's valedictory vindication of himself from Mr. Baxs . abuses of him , which tedious , mixt , blattering recrimination , and red-argumentation , if any save Mr. Tombs himself , whom it so personally relates to , shall trouble himself with from better employment , and the world with any more reply to , then the Lord rebuke him , he hath more time then wisdom profitably to improve it . Thirdly much if not much more then a third part of the residue , viz. from p. 289. to 338. he spends in division with other divines for pleading and practising baptism to infants from other grounds and principles and to other ends and purposes then himself doth , as namely , from Tradition , and yet in order to baptismal regeneration , as Mr Bedford , who is fain to fly to tradition for proof of infant baptism , and yet holds that baptism doth really as an instrumental efficient cause confer , and effect the grace of regeneration of nature on infants , which Mr Bedford , Dr. Burges , Dr. Ward , together with Mt. Baxter himself , and I know not how many more Divines , in the meandrous multitudinous mist of whose pro and con opinions a man may sooner loose himself then find the truth , are all ore the tops of the boots in dissentaneous discourses about a businesse called baptismal regeneration , the quiddity , quantity , and commodity of which non ens , of which nonsense , as to infants , is so curiously pryed into , and learnedly inquired after by them , that it is not for every ordinary body , that hath no more learning then Peter and Iohn had , who never Scholasticallized the plain Gospel out of the reach of plain men and poor folks , as our Rabbies now adaies do , to come within a mile or two of their meaning ; some divining on this wise , some on that , some one thing , some another , some that baptism is instituted to work the first grace in infants , i. e. habitual , but not in men , in whom the first grace is prerequired , as Mr. Bedford , some thwarting that by this reason , that baptism cannot have two different uses to men and infants , and yet saying with all , that it may be for some ends to the Aged , for which it is not to infants , as Mr. Baxter , some saying that baptism is a Physical , some a Metaphysical , some a Hiperphysical instrument to convey real grace into infants ▪ the spirit working it in them thereby naturally , or rather supernaturally , as Mr. Bedford who holds that it really conveyes grace on all infants elect , or non elect , and Dr. Burges , who yet differs and subdivides from him , holding that it conveyes grace on the elect infants only , and not on the non-elect , some that baptism is onely a moral instrument , and the spirit neither a Physical nor Hyperphysical , but a moral Agent in baptism , signifying and so working on the souls , sealing and conveying no real grace , but relative grace , i. e. right to the real , as Mr. Baxter , who saith that real true grace and change of mind is to go before baptism , as a condition both in the institution , and every example of baptism through all the bible , therefore not to be conveyed in it , this Mr. Baxter proveth by the institution Math. 28.18 . Mark 16. and by the examples of the Iewes , Samaritans , the Eunuch , Paul , Lydia , the Iaylor , the Corinthians , who all did gladly receive the word , repent and believe , and then and thereupon only were baptized p. 300. and because all this is exclusive of infants , who have no faith nor grace ( for to the utter confutation of the Ashford Disputers , who say infants in their infancy have faith and the spirit of grace , and that apparently enough , the Scripture making it plainly appear concerning them ) Mr. Baxter professeth that it is utterly unknown to any man on earth and unrevealed in the word , whether God give infants any inherent spiritual grace or not p 301. Therefore to salve his baptism of infants that have not that grace , and faith in them , that is prerequired to be in persons to be baptized , as a condition , he very goodly tells us that by grace and faith being prerequired , as a condition , he means either in the party or another for him , so then though infants have no faith in themselves yet o mirandum ! they have faith in the loines , i. e. in the hearts of their parents , and so are to be baptized , th●y are buryed in the dipping of the Ministers hand saith Featley , and believe by the faith of their Parents , saith Mr. Baxter . Thus oh how these men , who more stink of the Schooles then skill in the Scriptures , are at variance about their own inventions , bending their brains some one way , some another , to botch up their businesse of infant-baptism , and yet , as fast as one builds up , another of them saves us a labour , and razes and pulls down to our hands ; oh what stoch , what stuff , what stirs , what strife , what stickling , what striking flatly against each others principles , what a ditty , what a do is here among them ? as if the Divines were all mad : so let all the fraternity of divines be divided o God , and fall out ever about their own falsities , till they find thy truth , and never let them agree better among themselves on what account to baptize infants , till they ( ashamed of themselves , and people ashamed of waiting on the Seers for determination of what is truth ) be all driven to confesse as ( blessed be thy name ) Mr. Baxter doth already p. 301. That they find it a hard controversie to prove infant baptism it is so dark in the Scripture , much more a hard task to prove different uses of it to men and infants , as needs they must if they prove it to be of use to infants , for it signifies not at all to them as it does to men , and so to conclude , to the freeing of themselves from that puzzle and perplexity , and fire of contention that now they fry in , for their hatred of that one onely plain way of truth that leades to piece , that verily t is not thy will that any infant at all should be baptized ; and let Mr. Ba. who was once in doubt of infant baptism , upon sight of the slender grounds that other divines did hold it from , till satan seduced him back again to the belief of it again , be perswaded ▪ if it be thy will , on sight of the more weak and slender principles , which with much ado he hath found out , whereon to satisfy himself and others , and to sit still in the shadow of that superstition , to be not almost onely , but altogether , saving their sufferings from him , such as thy servants are , whom he yet vilifies what he can . As then to Mr. Baxters Appendix of Animadversions on Mr. Bedfords , Dr. Burges , and Dr. Wards absurdities about baptismal regeneration of infants , t is no matter to us , yea I conceive it a likely means of it self to make wise men renounce Infants baptism , that read there at what ods they are , and how they wrangle among themselves that own it ; beside sith he that passing by meddles with a strife not belonging to him is like one that takes a dog by the ears Pro. 26.17 . I le passe by for my part , and not meddle with it at all . Fourthly , another part of Mr. Baxters book is a small slender tract of about one leaf long penned in proof of baptisms abiding a standing ordinance of Christ to the worlds end , and therein so far am I from excepting and contradicting , that I rather approve it , & considering the high head of contradiction that in this last loose age already is , and within a while much more , and mote headily will be made against it , and how the subtility of Satan is such that sith he can uphold his kingdome now no longer by his old souldiers the Rantizers , which changed the lawes and ordinances of Christs kingdome , he seeks to do it by erecting a new moddle , of men , I mean the seekers , and Ranters , who rase the very foundations of it , and how sith he can prevail no more to deceive the nations from the narrowway of truth by his old Spiritualty the spiteful Priest , he hath spit a new Spiritualty out of his mouth , from which as from a greater Carnalty then the other , the earth , that it may be ripe for the sickle as it must be at Christs coming , shall abound with abomination i. e. they that separate themselves from the true Church after their separation with them from the false , sensual having not the spirit , yet pretending more highly to it then ever any , considering all this , I say , I seriously side with Mr. Ba. as to that subject , and to shew him , who simply supposes we are all a people posting towards the pulling down of Christs ordinances , because some do , and because all of us , as we are sworn to i● , seek what we are able to pull down mens , to shew him I say notwithstanding his conceits to the contrary , how close we keep according to the counsel both of Peter and Iude in that behalf 2 Pet. 3.2 . Iude 17. to the commandements of Christ and his Apostles in these last daies , wherein they declare that others should depart from and despise them , to shew him also how little reason he hath to charge us with their evils , who are ( to use his own phrase p. 26 ▪ ) above ordinances i. e. above obedience to God , and so Gods themselves , I intend God willing be●ore this work escape my hand , that is now under it to bestow some few lines on the same subject , having been often requested to it by others in vindication to the truth . Fifthly , as for the forepart of Mr. Baxs , book , for more then a fourth part of it is worn out in Pream●ular passages , apologies , epistles to the Church at Kederminster , at Bewdley , which Churches alias parishes of K●d . and Bew ▪ ( for all the people , till of late that some few have separated themselves together to Mr. T. are Church-members with Mr. Ba. in those two places p. 280. ) which parishes I say howbeit , sowing pillowes that they may sleep the more seeurely in superstition , Mr. Ba. by a dedication of his doings to the Church at Ked . to the Church at Bew. would fain flatter into a faith , that each of them is a Church of Iesus Christ , yet I must crave leav● to inform those Churches from Christ , that as yet they are no other then Church●s of the Popes calling and constitution ; for the parochial posture of Christning , and so inchurching of all that are born within the bounds , and barely abide within the precincts of the parish , had its order from the head of those Churches viz. the Vicar of Christ ; but not at all from Christ Iesus himself , yea and though there may be many honest men in both Ked . and Bewdley , among whom if Mr. Ba. be one it shall not grieve me at all , yet according to Dr. Featleys , nor yet according to Mr. Baxs . own definition , who say a true visible Church is a particular company of men professing the Christian faith , known by two markes viz. the sincere preaching of the word , and due administration of the Sacraments Dr. Featly p. 4 ▪ or a society of persons separated from the world to God , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 called out of the world &c. Mr. B. p. 87. neither of those two parishes are true visible Churches of Iesus Christ , for neither were they ever yet called out of the world , or separated from the world to God in that wise i. e : by such meanes , and in such manner as Christs Church is i. e. by the pure preaching , of the word and pure power of God , but rather by the power of the word of man i. e. partly of the Pope , and partly of the civil sword in this nation of old , under a penalty imposing upon them their present posture ; nor is the word preacht to them to this hour sincerely by Mr. Ba. or any other parish minister , who unlesse he sing a new song will make them no more a Church of Christ then he found them , but with wonderful much mixture of mans invention ; yea the fear of God is taught by him according to the precepts of men , much lesse are the Sacraments rightly administred , for their baptism is no baptism at all . And as touching separation , I know but three separations they have had since they stood under the name of Christian Churches , answerable to the different Christian Religions , of point blank Papism , prelatical Prostantanism , and present Presbyterianism , which the parishes haue past under since they have been Parishes , viz. a Presbyterian separation by appointment of the present Parliament , who on pain of their displeasure commanded all to separate from the lesser superstitions of episcopall formes , ceremonies , services , to a finer and more directorian ▪ kind of Protestant profession ; a generall Protestant separation by the Appointment of our english state under K. Ed. and Q. Eliz. who commanded all on pain of their displeasure to separate from the Romish grosser superstitions , Popes Supremacies , masse and other Marian opinions and professions , also a parochial and a paropopical separation , or distinct oppidal division of their particular selves from each other , and all other particular Churches i e. Towns besides themselves , by the appointment of the Pope and his Subs and Subsubs viz. Christian Emperours , Kings and Princes , who when they threw down their Crownes , and gave up all their power to make one beast called Christiendome , and themselves and theirs to be ruld and reignd over wholly by the whore at her wil , did both separate all Christendome from the world , and then sub-separate it into many smaller Christendomes , and constituted Churches i. e , national provincial , parochial : and thus Ked . and Bew. first began to be Churches , or societies visibly separated from the world viz. by the call of the Pope , who separated one parish from another ; but Christs Churches had another separation i. e. by the word barely preached , and not by outward force imposed , they were called to faith in Christ , and baptism , not Rantism , into his name for remission of sins , and after that continued in the Apostles doctrine , and in fellowlowship one with another , not forced , but free , and in breaking of bread and prayers : these are the Churches to which as then , so now the Lord adds dayly such as shall he saved , and therefore I must tell Mr. Ba. and the honest men in either Ked . or Bew. that are of Mr. Bs. beguiling that except they repenting both for and from their dead works , and their vain conversation in point of baptism , worship , Church-fellowship &c received by Tradition from their fathers , and their unadvised zeal in siding to smite Christ with reproches thorow the sides of the true Churches , be baptized better then ever they have been , and do as those did in Act. 2. which as no infant then did so now none can do , they have neither the true matter nor the true form constitutive of the visible Church of Christ , yea so many of them onely as shall gladly receive the word , which infants cannot do , and yet may do well enough too , neither that nor walking in fellowship being required of them , as it is of others , and be baptized according to his will , shall be owned as the true visible Church of Christ in these two parishes as Christs appearing . Sixthly , the residue of Mr. Bs. book which containes his arch argumentation from three principles for infants baptsm viz. their discipleship Church-membership and rightship of being dedicated unto Christ , is for the most part , to the satisfaction of any that are minded to own the truth , though not so intentionally in way of formal answer to Mr. Ba. so fully and effectually enervated before , where the same arguments , as they are used by others , are examined , that it could amount to no other then superfluity , and Tautologie to answer them over again , because they are urged in another , that is a more pedantick for me by him , whose work is not at all to produce any new principles from which to prove the point , but onely to improve more largely in a way of labor more long then strong , to manage more formally in a way of hipothetical syllogism , and to drive on more furiously these few old ones ; therefore excuse me , specially since Mr. T. hath given reply some while since , who is more strictly concern'd in it , if I am loath , unless there were more need then Mr. Baxs . new triming up of two or three old arguments ministers thereunto , to begin and play over the whole game again ; I know a trick worth two of that viz. to refer you to what is already written by Mr. T. and what I have said my self above , and my friend thereby be admonished , for to make many books , much more upon one subject is to no end , and much study is a weariness to the flesh , yet a general return I may chance to give , and some brief reply to his arguments in particular . The truest general verdict I can give of it , if I may speak my judgement without offence , is this , it is a three footed stool , the legs of which are all lame , and decrepid made by Mr. Bax. for the people of Ked . and Bewd . to sit at ease on , in that popish posture and practise ▪ in which truth being hid for ages and generations , both they and all Christendome have been housed , and out of which Christ Jesus is now about to storm them ; it is a tree shooting forth with three Trunkes against the truth , whereof the middlemost which is the main , runs out in tot ramos , ramulos , & ramusculos so many smaller boughs , twigs , and twiggles , and layes it self forth at large into such a train of Trivials , so many littles to the purpose , that he will find himsel● great store of small businesse , that does more then think his think to his own self of each particular odde conceit , that is in it , or that ●alkes to the world of it any more then in the general , and in the lump . In the lump therefore I say in the sincerity of my soul , as in the sight of God , I see not what to stile it more suitably to it self in short , then a lump of Logical superfluity , a systeme of Syllogistical simplicity , wherein the man mannages his war like some fresh man that is newly metriculated into the faculty of Logicking in mood and figure , that delights to hear himself syllogize out every syllable , as he hath scribled it over afore hand , and treasured it up in his papers ; so he comes out with a huge heap of hypotheticals , arguing at a vast distance from the business of baptism , and some times ex suppositis non supponen lis too , as if he would fetch infant baptism from far , sith t is so dark in Scripture , as he confesses it is , that he cannot have it nigh at hand , proving more roundly then soundly , in a great circumference of consequence upon consequence , syllogism upon syllogism thus , if this then that , if this then that , if this then that , but this therefore that ; when not seldome neither this nor that is true ; but will you hear the conclusion of the whole matter ? it is this . ma. If some infants be disciples , and churchmembers , and to be devoted to God therefore to be baptized . mi. But so they are , Therefore to be baptized . To which besides the sequel of the Major , which I shall shew to be utterly false , I 'le prove the Minor false by the prosecution of this Syllogism . If infants be neither disciples in any sense , much lesse that in Mat. 28 nor church members of a Gospel Congregation , nor are to be devoted to God in such a sense as the Jewish males , then not to be baptized ; But so they are not , Ergo , not to be baptized . As for his Mediums whereby he Argues infants to be disciples , they are so frivolous and foolish , that a very child may be ashamed of them . The first , which is taken out of Act. 15.10 . is so abundantly declared to be absurd before , that I need not clear it further , and therefore I 'le say the lesse to it here , he argues thus viz. Those i. e. all those on whom the false teachers would have put the yoke of circumcision were disciples , But some of those on whom they would have layed that yoke were infants . Ergo infants are disciples . The Major of which is a foundation so ●alse and infirm , that I stand amaz'd at it that a man of Logick should dare to lay it , yet well nigh every one of you builders lay it as your basis , from whence you divine a discipleship to infants , and thereon build the businesse of their baptism , as Doctor Featley , Mr. Marshall and others , yea who would think it ? inter scribendum while I am a writing this very line in Answer to Mr. Bax. there is a trifle brought to my hands o● a sheet and a half , piping hot from the presse , penned by Mr. Simpson of Marden , son to that Mr. Simpson of Bethersden , whose private letters I answered above , stiled a soveraign preservative against Anabaptism , in which there is nihil novi , no newes at all , for t is a furtive collection of some few fraggments out of other men viz. Mr. Blake , the Ashfordian dispute and others , which all are also more then enough enervated before , whereupon I shall trouble my self no further then thus with that toy , the author whereof in his epistle to the Anabaptists , as he calls them , about Marden , tells strange stories of his being stormed on every side , and almost tired out with onsets and oppositions from their private letters , and among the rest he minds them how he had once to do with a host of them viz. September the tenth 1649. in which conflict my self , who was more then an eye witnesse , though much inferior to a worthy brother then in presence also , viz. Mr. Blackwood , and therefore far from arrogating to my self the title of Champion , with which he smites me in his Margent , can testify how uncivilly and shamefully the man stormed against the truth , insomuch that unlesse he repent of the mad-blind , hare-brained zeal he then expressed , many , if not most of that Auditory he then interrupted , whether he remember them of it or no , will surely never forget it while they live . In which book , I say as there is no new Argument , so to be sure there is this old Argument , as well as some more , translated out of Mr. Bax. or some other , whereby to prove infants discipleship p. 20. because the false Teachers would have put the yoak of circumcision on them . But Sirs what though they would have put the yoak on the disciples necks , will it therefore follow that they were all disciples on whose necks they would have put the yoake ? me thinks it should not , if you look well about you , any more then this , viz. Augustus Caesar put the yoak of Tribute on all the Jewes , i. e. taxed all the Jewes , Ergo , all they were Jewes whom Augustus taxed . Nay verily had it been said they would have put the yoake of circumcision on all the disciples , as it is not , yet would it not have held Retro that therefore all those on whom they would have put the yoak were disciples , but in very deed neither of those was true , for as it was not all the disciples on whom they would have put that yoake , for they did not teach that women should be circumcised , so all were not disciples on whom they would have put that yoak , for male infants not being capable to be taught cannot possibly be disciples at all , much lesse such disciples as are meant in that place , of whom it is most evident that they were taught verse 1. Much more might be said in disproof of this foolish fancy but that enough is spoken to it before , yet this is the first Medium whereby Mr. Bax. bends himself to make it good that some infants are disciples , and his other are as mean to the full as this , he proves it next by a disjunctive thus , If infants be not disciples , it is either because they are uncapable so to be , or else because God will not shew them such a mercy . But neither of these can be the cause , Ergo , some infants are disciples . To which I answer that t is not because God will not shew them so great a mercy , for most undoubtedly the Lord shewes far greater mercie then that , though not that to infants that dy in infancy , for he saves them and gives unto them everlasting life , and admits them into the Kingdome of Heaven , and as for that bare simple notion , outward account and denomination of disciples , what extraordinary great mercy is that I wonder if it be abstracted from the other ? t is not so great a mercy but persons may have it , and yet be damned for all that , nor so great a mercy , but that the mercy of God may be as great to them without it , nor so great as that they are capable of any more benefit by it from the Church , or from their parents , then they are capable of if they have it not , they may be prayed for by the Church and by their parents full as much , and be brought up by them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord , not onely as well , but much better , when they are capable of being disciples , and instructed , though in infancy neither counted disciples , nor baptized , as if they were supposed to be disciples before they are taught , It is therefore because they are not capable to be discipled in their nonage , and the true reason why they are not capable , is that which Mr. T. alledged , and alas that it should not satisfy Mr. Bax. viz. because they cannot learn what is taught them . Mr. Bax. knowing that , fetches a compasse about another way whereby to prove them capable to be disciples , viz. their being servants of Christ , and subjects of Christs Kingdome , and thirdly their belonging to Christ , but what a pittiful piece of proof , what a messe of miserable mistake is this , as if to belong to Christ , to be Christs subject , Gods servant , and Christ disciple were convertible , and alltogether one and the same , wheras howbeit it cannot be denyed but that every disciple of Christ belongs to Christ , and is his Subject , and Gods servant , yet that every one who may be said to belong to Christ , to be Gods servant , and his Subject , is Christs disciple cannot be asser●ed without more absurdity , then Mr. Bax. is willing to take notice of in himself , for Mr. T. gives him an Item of it plain enough , for any reasonable man to consider of , but he is deaf to it through a mind forestalld against the truth . He tells us that infants are capable to be Gods servants Levit. 25.41.42 . and therefore consequently Christs disciples , and consequently to be baptized , for disciples and Gods servants signifie the same thing , denote the same persons , and that there is the same capacity requisite to both p. 18.19 . yea if there be a difference saith he , there is more required to a servant then to a disciple , but what wretched evidence is here , when as there 's nothing more clear , and palpably evident , then this , that more is required to make a disciple then a servant , yea verily the consequence holds sound from Christs disciple , to Gods servant , but from Gods servant to Christs disciple , which is his way of arguing a very novice may see it rotten , and invalid : there is enough in all the creatures , the earth and heavens , which as books , wherein we may read it , though not as men that make any verball narration of it , declare the glory of God Ps. 19.1 . to denominate them Gods servants Psa. 119.91 . Nebucad-Nezar had enough to denominate him Gods servant Ier 43.10 . as Mr. T. truly tells him , but not enough to denominate him Christs disciple . Yea I appeal to Mr. Ba. own conscience , whether at that time , when Christ exercised his ministry among the Iews , the whole Nation of the Iews as well as those he mentions out of Levit. 25.41 . and in the self same sense with those , were not , Iure Redemptionis by right of his Redemption of them from Egypt , the servants of God , had relatively a peculiar people to himself , yet how few of them were Christs disciples viz. those onely that attended to his law , in which respect though he stile all Israel his servants , yet he distinguishes those few onely from the rest that harkned not to his law , by the denomination of his disciples Isaiah 8.16 . And whereas he saies of infants may they not be called Gods servants from the meer interest of dominion that God hath to them ? p. 20. I answer , who doubts of that ? but may they thereupon be called disciples , and be baptized ? if so then from the meer interest of dominion that God hath to all men , all men may be called Gods servants , as well as they , and so consequently be baptized as Christs disciples . He tells us further p. 21. that infants are capable of being subjects of Christs kingdome , taking kingdome not in the larger sense , as it contains all the world , nor in the strictest as it containeth onely his elect , but in a middle sense as it conteins the visible Church , therefore consequently capable of being Christs disciples , and of baptizing ; and to prove the antecedent viz. that they are subjects of Christs kindome i. e. members of the visible Church , he uses this medium , they are capable of being subjects in any kingdome on earth , and therefore why not of Christs kingdome saith he i. e. of the visible Church of Christ ? Now if this be a good consequence , they are capable to be subjects in any Kingdom on earth and therefore to be subjects of Christs Kingdom i. e. his Church , then the infants of heathens as well as these , being capable to be subjects in any Kingdom on earth , are consequently as capable to be subjects of Christs Kingdom and Church , and consequently to be Christs disciples , and in their infancy to be baptized , but Mr. Baxter himself will say non sequitur unto this . He tells us further that Christ would have some infants i. e. believers infants , for those he meanes , to be received as disciples , therefore some infants i. e. such are his disciples . To prove the antecedent he jumbles together a number of places out of Mat. Mark and Luke viz. Mat. 18.5 . the 10.42 . Mark. 9.41 . Luke 9.47.48 . in one of which places because Christ saies of a child , who so shall receive this child in my name receiveth me , by comparing this place with the rest , where Christ saies to his disciples , and of them also , not of infants , whoso shall give to you a cup of water in my name , because you belong to Christ , or as Matthew hath it in the name of a disciple , he shall not loose his reward , he gathers that some i. e. believers infants are disciples , and to be received to baptism , as such , for saith he , in Christs name , and as Christs disciple , and as belonging to Christ are all one in Christs language . To which I answer , First , by denying that in Christs name , and as a disciple , and as belonging to Christ are all one : for in Christs name is a Term of larger extent and latitude then the rest , so that we may be said to do good in Christs name to some persons , whom yet we cannot do good to as belonging to him in that neer relation of his disciples : in the name of Christ , besides severall other significations , which the phrase hath , is as much sometimes as for Christs sake , who requires it , and to do good to others in the name of Christ is to do good to them for Christs sake , and then we may be said to do good for his sake , not onely when we do good to them that are disciples of Christ , upon that account of their belonging to him as his , but also , when we do good to them that are none of his disciples , upon the meer account of his command , who injoines all persons as occasion is to do good to all , though especially to the houshold of faith : whereupon also I perswade my self verily , nor is it very unworthy of observation , that the spirit when it speaks of doing good to profest disciples indeed Mar. 9.41 . he incourages to receive them , not onely in the name i. e. for the sake of Christ so requiring , but as belonging to him also as his disciples , in the name of a Prophet , in the name of a righteous man , in the name of a disciple ; but when he speaks of our doing good to that child Luke 9.48 . he saies no more then barely in the name of Christ i. e. for the sake of Christ owning such an action , but expresses not the other notion , and account of discipleship , and Relation to him , as that on which he would have him to be received . Moreover were it otherwise , it would make little to the purpose of Mr. Ba. who brings it to prove some such sucking infants as men sprinkle , i. e. believers babes to be disciples , sith that it was a believers child of which Christ there speaks , or that he speaks of such children rather then of the children of other men , is much more then Mr. Ba. can ever clear , and that it was a child of such a stature as to come to Christ , when he cald him , and therefore no infant of a span long , nor such as is the subject of your sprinkling , is too clear for Mr. Ba. to gainsay , without clear contradiction of the Scripture Mat. 18.2 . These are far fetcht faddles , whereby Mr. Ba. backs his people in the blind belief of his fond and false opinion that all believers infants are Christs disciples , and thereupon to be baptized . The mediums whereby he manifests their membership in the Gospel-church are many , more then a good many , and not more many then manifestly weak , and utterly unavailable to such a purpose . Rantist . Many more then ever will be answered easily by you or any other that set so light by them as you do . Baptist. That may possibly be too , for I think no wise body will immittere pecus in pratum vbi non est sepes busie himself beyond measure in such a boundlesse prate , and piece of sillogization about infant membership as it is , nor be so extravagant from Mr. Bs. own advice , who p. 12. tells us that we shall never be able to justifie it , if we lay out but the thousandth part of our time , study , talk , or zeal ( yet if he have not spent the twenteth part of his own , I am must mistaken ) upon this question it self , either for or against it , as to lose a moiety of his time in replying distinctly to such a mint of impertinencies as are handled at armes end here by Mr. Ba. for my own part I am not minded to tire my self to much with tracing at large after every new hare that starts in my way , nor to stand dancing the hay after Mr , Ba. into every corner of that laborinth of Logick , into which he leads me , and yet leaves me after view and Review as little ground for infant baptism as if he had said nothing at all : nor shall I bury my self up from better imployment in the bottomlesse pit of those absurdities , which this part of his book also is fully fraught with , partly because I find that most that he saies there is in effect answered already in the book called Anti-babism , where the genuine sense of the main Scriptures he rests into his own use , is given out viz. Rom. 11. 1. Cor. 7. Mar. 9.36 . Rom. 4.11 . Mal. 2.15 . partly also because I perceive a vain of particular contest with Mr. T. to run thorow the whole , which Mr. T. according to the particular interest he hath therein , hath already taken notice of in Print , so far as its worth an answer , partly also because I am not so happy as to have the patience of many , scarce of any of the churches of Christ , whose servant I am , suffering me hitherto , without such frequent avocations of me from this to services of another nature abroad , as are inconsistent with my writing of much more at home . Neverthelesse besides some animadversion of as much of its absurdity as may be with conveniency , I shall take the sting out so clearly that it shall not hurt , and that by both a clear , though general disproof of it all , and as clear though generall and brief demonstration of the contrary , Take notice therefore of the most cardinal argument , upon which he grounds infant church-membership under the Gospel . It was so once that infants were of the church , and it is not repealed , therefore it is so now . To which I answer , by granting t was so from Abrahams time , and downward to Christ ( for before that time all the pa●●s he takes doth not , and all the braines he hath in his head cannot produce the least sollid proof of such a thing ) for all that Church and the materials of it were a ceremony and a type , and never the viler for that , as Mr. Ba. foolishly fancies p. 59. of the church under Christ , t was so in that outward typicall covenant that God made concerning an earthly Canaan with the natural seed of Abraham in the loines of Isaac and Iacob , not Ismael , Gen. 17.20.21 . nor any of his seed by Keturah , Gen. 25.1.6 . upon the performance of certain carnal ordinances as circumcision , and the rest of the ordinances of Divine service pertaining to that covenant , which circumcision bound them to till the time of reformation Heb. 9. but that therefore t is so now in the church under the Gospel-covenant , that was typified by the other , I utterly deny , whose heavenly inheritance and spirituall seed of Abraham , i. e. believers born of God by faith in Christ , answer as he Anti-type to that earthly Canaan , and fleshly seed of Abraham , and before which the type is fled away , for all the ceremonialls of that law are vanisht , among which this admitting of fleshly babes was one , and what it pointed at is shewed abundantly in Anti-babism , which may serve as an answer also to his fourteenth argument , for their present membership , where if the law of infant-Church-membership were ceremonial , he bids us shew what it tip●fi●d : ●he membership therefore of infants , which belonged onely to that particular Church of the Jewes , which was also the whole universal visible Church that God then had upon earth , unlesse we shall dream with Mr. Baxter of more particular visible Churches then that of the Jewes during its standing , different from it in form , order and constitution , which together with that made up some one universal visible of which infants were members first , as he dotes , and then secondarily of that particular ; which conceit of his concerning such a universal visible , is a meer invisible chimaera , for who ever saw any visible Church , or people whom God visibly inchurched , and gave his oracles to besides Israel ? of whom it is said God dealt ●n that particular , as he did not with any other Nations , suffering all others to walk after their own waies Act. 14.16 . nor can there be now any universall visible Church , but what is made up of the particular visible Churches , so that a person must first be a member of some particular Congregation , before he can be of that universal : the Membership I say of infants that belonged to that Church onely , which was to be National , and tipical of that true holy nation i. e. all the saints , where ever scattered , is now repealed , nor can any of that Mr. Ba. syllogizes to us evince the contrary . He tells us that if it be repealed then either in justice , or mercy to infants , but it is in neither saith he p. 38. Ergo. he falls a proving the Minor , but with his leave I shall make bold to deny the Major , it was neither better nor worse as to the whole spe●ies of infants , it was severity to unbelieving Jewes , goodnesse to believing Gentiles , but t was not done with any such special respect to infants in their nonage , as that if it had stood the whole species of infants through the world would have been much the better , for such a meer titular thing as membership , in the Church , unlesse that membership would ipso facto have more intitled them to heaven , nor now it s taken away are sucking infants ere the worse , for saying the great dignity that you deem to ly in the bare title of being a member of the visible Church , whether they dy before your adm●ssion of them , or just after , if in infancy , their salvation is for that neither more nor lesse , and if they live to years as they are then are no longer infants , and no neerer heaven for their being baptized , when they were infants , unlesse they repent and believe the Gospell , so repenting and believing it , they are as capable then of heaven , though they were not , as if they had been baptized , and in bare church-membership from the womb : this therefore is petty reasoning indeed as Mr. T. calls it see Mr. Ba. 40. His second , third , fourth , fifth , six Arguments are all out of Rom. 11. which place , as I have declared my sense of it before , so I testifie again is so clear against the standing of infants as members in the family of Abraham , or Church of God now under the Gospel , that he is as blind as a beetle , that sees any thing in it tending to the proof of it , for it seems plainly that the natural branches , or seed of Abraham , Isaac , and Iacob themselves , that stood the children of the Church before without faith , upon the meer account of being their naturall branches , cannor stand children of the Church now , unlesse they be also spiritual branches , as Abraham , Isaac , and Iacob were ; yea if being the fleshly seed of a believer could ingraft persons into the Gospel Church , as it did of old into the Jewish Church without faith , then the Jewes to this day , being asmuch believing Abrahams natural seed as ever , might by that birth stand Members as truly , as any G●ntile believers seed , but they cannot , yea the same persons that were members of that Church without filth , were not admitted to passe from that Church to membership in this , for want of faith ; but when very forraigners , that had no relation to , nor descent from Abraham , became his children in the Gosspel sense , and members of the Gospel Church by personal faith , the very naturall seed of Abraham was cut off through unbelief , so that the standing before was by a fleshly birth of Abraham , or some believing proselited Gentile , but the standing now in the Church is not by a birth natural of any parent , no not of Abraham himself , unlesse ●here be faith in the persons themselves , as Mr. Baxter believes not there is in any infants , for to the confutation of the Ashford Pamphlet , which pleads infant-faith , Mr. Baxter p. 98. Makes the very essence of faith to lie in assenting to it that Christ is King and Saviour , and consenting that he be so to us and whether infants do thus both assent and consent let Mr. Ba. be judge of it if he please . Because of unbelief the natural seed were broken off , thence Mr. Bax. argues that infants stand still in the Church , but thence I argue they cannot stand , because those that stand now stand by faith ver . 20. i , e. personal , not parental ; thou standest ( saith Paul ) by faith , i. e thy faith , not thy Fathers , for then we may as well say the just shall live by his fathers faith , not by fleshly descent , though of Abraham , Isaac and Iacob themselves , as of old they did , and infants cannot stand by faith unlesse they had it , and therefore not at all . Mr. Baxter argues it was the Jewes own Olive tree or Church they were cut off from for unbelief , Therefore infants stand in it still , But thence I argue that our infants cannot stand therein , for if god spared not the Naturall Branches of Abraham , but broke them off their own root , their own father Abraham and his family , so as to be counted no longer his children , their own olive tree the church so as to abide no longer in it , because they believed not , the terms of standing church-members being now no fleshly descent but faith , then much lesse will he admit any Gentiles , that are not naturall branches of Abraham , to be grafted into the good olive tree without faith , and therefore no infants that believe not . Mr Ba. tells us that some branches only were broken off , therfore not infants , It is true all were not broken off , and why ? because some believed , and so abode in the family , others and those the most believe not when they should , others and those all infants nor believed , nor yet could , and therefore could not abide , nor have a visible being , a visible membership , a visible standing in that visible church , the termes of standing in which is only and alone by faith . Mr. Bax. argues that Israel shall again be grafted into their own olive tree , and saved , even the children with the parents , and therefore infant-membership in the Gospel church is not repealed ▪ I answer it is true that if they abide not still in unbelief ; they shall be grafted into their own olive tree , the visible Church , and family of Abraham , that is so many as shall believe onely , this infants do not , but whether they believe or believe not , when the Redeemer , i. e. Christ Jesus shall come , all Israel shall be saved , and be owned , and made the most glorious people upon earth , and enter into a flourishing state indeed , but not in this way of baptism , and membership , Mr. Baxter speaks of , who I perceive is not a little ignorant of this mystery as yet , how long blindnesse shall happen unto Israel , and in what manner their calling shall be , of which I also have at this time as little list , as leasure to inform him . Mr. Ba. argues from the samenesse of the Olive tree the Jew was broken off from , and the Gentile was grafted into , that therefore as infants stood members then , so they must now . I answer it is true there is some kind of indentity between the Jewish , and the Gospel Church , but not such as concludes an indentity of membership for infants , they are the same ingenere visiblis Ecclesiae , they agree in the common name of Church , and visible Church , elected and segregated from the world , but there 's little else that I know of wherin they are the same , they differ in circumstantials , in their accidental forms , in their officers , ordinances , customs , constitutions , subjects , members , that being constituted of one whole nation of people , or fleshly seed of Abraham , taken out from all other nations , this of a spiritual seed of Abraham , i. e. believers scaterred here and there , taken out of any nation as they happen to be called , almost every nation some , the ceremony of inchurching Abrahams own , much more any other mans meer fleshly seed being ceased . Mr. Bax. peddles on apace , and brings a company of Scripures in proof of infants Church-membership and baptism , which though he stile them , as indeed his whole book , Plain Scripture proofs for those two , yet a man that is not minded to force the Scripture into the Service of his own fancy , because it does not serve it freely , may look till dooms day before he see in them any plain , perspicuous proof of either one of these or of the other . Christ saith he Mat. 23.37 , would have gathered Ierusalem oft , as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings but they would not , therefore sure he would not have put them , or their infants out of the Church , the strength of the consequence lies here , saith he , he would have gathered whole Ierusalem , and that into the visible Gospel Church , therefore infants also ; Now that Christ does not speak of whole Ierusalem here , as he saith he does , both men and infants , the circumstances of the text do fully evince to us , for he speaks of the same persons he speaks to , and the same persons he complains of , saying ye would not , the same and no other are they to whom he speaks , when he saies ▪ Oh Ierusalem how often would I have gathered &c. but those were men and women only , whom he called to believed in him , and not infants . Again he gathered them by preaching of the word into baptism , and membership , and received all that came , and no more viz. sometimes the children and not the parents , sometimes the parents and not the children , so that a mans foes for the truths sake sometimes were they of his own family , his own flesh , therefore he offered not to gather infants , for he preacht not to them , nor called them at all , nor were any more baptized and added to the Church-fellowship in the Gospel , then they that gladly received the word , that did not infants , yea 3000 were gathered into the first Gospel Church by preaching and baptism in one day , and never an infant among them all , for they surely did not continue in fellowship , in breaking of bread and prayers Acts 2. Therefore whereas Mr. Ba. in his Epistle to the parish of Bewdley challenges Mr. T. to name him one particular Church since Adam either of Jewes or Gentiles , where infants were not Church-members , if they had any infants , till 200 years ago ; I name him the first Gospel Church that ever was Act. 2. in which there was not one infant ; yea there was three thousand baptized in one day , and it is a hazard but that those three thousand had many , perhaps no lesse than three thousand infants belonging to them all , and yet as Mr. Cotton thinkes , so think I , that none of their infants were baptized with them , much lesse were added with them to the Church , or continued with them in fellowship , as the whole Gospel Church did , in breaking of bread and prayers ; yea though there was no infants in that Church , which was gathered at Ierusalem it self , to which Christ saies how oft would I have gathered thy children , &c. and therefore Mr. Baxs . sense is very sinister , so I challenge him again to shew me , not by such dubious , muddy , cloudy , circumlocutory , inconsequential consequences as he doth , but undeniable evidences any one of all the Gospel Churches of the primitive times , either of Jewes or Gentiles , which we are all to re●orm by viz. Ierusalem , Rome , Corinth , Galatia , Philippi , Ephesus , Thessalonica , or any other to fellowship in which there was one infant baptized , added and admitted , and I shall cry him mercy , and lay down the Cudgells at his feet , and acknowledge he hath broke my pate . The next Scripture he uses is more impertinent then this , yet Mr. Ba. makes a certain shift to squeese an argument out of it , and to compel it invita minervâ not a little against its own intent , and meaning to corroborate his crooked crazie creed concerning the inchurching and cristening of infants viz. Rev. 11.15 . whence he thus Syllogizes , If the kingdoms of this world either are or shall be the kingdomes of the Lord , and of his Christ , then infants also must be members of his kingdom i. e. the visible Church , the Antecedent is the words of the text indeed , as he saies , but the sequel is so sure , and follows so firmly in his fancy , that he saies nothing can be said against it , that is sense or reason : but indeed it self is against both sense and reason . Who would ever think , if the word did not declare that the things of wisdome are hid from the wise and prudent , that such a disputer as Mr. Ba. holds himself to be , should deduce the now membership of infants , from such a premise as this viz. because the kingdomes of this world are , or else shall be the kindomes of God and Christ ? what 's this I trow toward the eviction of the other ? much every way saith Mr. Ba. yea so much , that for any thing he can see this text alone were sufficient to decide the whole controversie whether infants must be Church members , Amen so beit say I , let this Scripture decide it , and let 's see what Mr. Ba. saies on t . If they can say , quoth he , by kingdoms is meant here some part of the kingdom , excluding all infants , such men may make their own creed on those termes , let the Scripture say what it will , I know in some places the word kingdome , and Ierusalem &c. is taken for a part , but if we must take words alwayes improperly , because they are taken so sometimes saith he , then we shall not know how to understand any Scripture , so of necessity it must be understood properly i. e in its prime signification of the whole kingdoms , and whole Ierusalem with him , and not improperly for a part onely , though Mr. Blake to Mr. Black. saith upon occasion of our pleading for the proper signification of baptize , nothing more ordinary then to have words used out of their prime signification , whereby we may see how these men wil needs have that signification that best serves their turnes , whether proper or improper , when the proper most fits them , then the improper cannot be meant there , when the proper makes against them , the improper is pleaded for as none more usual then that , thus the word houshold must include infants , when baptism is spoken of , but when the passover is spoken of then infants are excluded , because else we shall argue from thence to their eating the supper , as they from circumcision unto their baptism , but this by the way that it may be noted how the men will have things their own way , by hook or by crook , not that I deny the word kingdomes to be taken properly for all the whole kingdome here , yea I grant it , but let us see what of that ? why even this , if the whole kingdom be the Lords , then infants must unavoidably be members of Christs Church , and if we ask how comes this about ? he will tell you two wayes , First , as infants are all of the Kingdomes of this world , taken for the whole kingdom , Secondly , as by the word kingdom of Christ is meant Christs church . Now let us spell and put all together , and it is thus much , First , by Kingdomes of this world is here meant the whole Kingdome of this world , or Kingdome taken universally , not for some part of it onely . Secondly , by Kingdomes of the Lord and his Christ is here meant Christs church onely . Thirdly , infants are a part of the Kingdomes of this world , and so consequently of Christs church , for the Kingdomes of this world are become the Kingdomes of the Lord and his Christ i. e. Christs church , oh brave and plain Scripture proof for infant church-membership and baptism . Let us examine what is true and what is false in this . First , as above , I grant that here the Kingdomes of this world signifie the whole Kingdome , as he pleads it , but that here the Kingdome of the Lord and his Christ signifies Christs church , I utterly deny it , and am amazed that a reasonable man should affirm it , and so consequently I deny that it appears from this place that infants are now members of Christs church . But he brings reason for it , such as t is , and that shall be a little examined . First , if they say saith he that the Kindome of Christ is not here meant Christs church , they speak against the constant phrase of Scripture , which calls Christs Kingdome his Church , et conversim , Christ is King and saviour of the same society , what is Christs Kingdom but his church ? To which I answer , Christs Kingdome is the whole world as well as his church . And Secondly that he is King and Saviour of all men in some sense as well as of that same society . And Thirdly , that it is not against the constant phrase of Scripture to say by Christs Kingdome here is not meant his church , for though it is true by his Kingdome is sometimes exprest his church , et retro by his church is meant his Kingdome in a special and restrictive sense , yet not constantly , there being many places where the word Kingdome of Christ is taken in a larger sense , as signifying not the church , but the whole world O bad . 21 the Kingdome i. e. Monarchy of the whole earth shall be the Lords i. e. Christs so Dan. 7. the Kingdome i. e. Dominion , Monarchy and greatness of the Kingdome under the whole heaven is given to the son of man , and the Saints , yea his Kingdom is over all , he shall rule the Nations , govern and judge the whole world in righteousnesse ; Oh saith Mr. Ba. the Kingdome of Christ is more large , and more speciall ; but here it cannot be meant of his kingdom in the larger sense , nor as he ruleth common societies , and things for so saith he the Kingdomes of this world were ever the Lords and his Christs , and it could not be said that they are now become so . To which I answer , First , that in granting what he here does , that Christs kingdome is taken sometimes in a larger sense , then for the church , he contradicts himself above , where he saies it is the constant phrase of Scripture to call Christs Kingdome his church , and what is Christs kingdome but his church ? Secondly , whereas he saies the Kingdomes of this world were ever the Lords and his Christs in the larger sense , as taken for his Government and Rule , I grant de jure Christ hath been Lord of the whole earth a long time , but de facto he is not King , so as actually to reign over the whole earth , as ere long he shall do i. e. at his appearing 2 Tim. 4.1 . to this very day , but in that indeed i. e. when he comes he shall be King , Monarch over all the earth , and rule with a rod of iron over the Nations , and judge the world in righteousnesse together with his Saints , who hath been judged in unrighteousnesse by the Nations and Rulers hitherto Zach. 14. Dan. 7. Act. 17. P 2. Rev. 2. then he shall be in point of execution , as before by commission , and really , and actually , as now intentionally King of Kings , and Lord of Lords Rev. 19. but till then , as yet a little while , and his Kingdome comes to his hand , and the Kingdomes of the world do thus become his , for the work of recovery of his right is now very hot in fieri , and will not be long before it be in facto esse , till then he hath been an underling , and other Lords besides him have had dominion over him in his , and also over the whole earth , which is his , and over the Kingdomes of this world , which de jure are his , but specially that servus servorum , dominus dominorum the Pope and CCClergy , that are the whore that hath reigned in three divisions over the earth , between whom and Christ the great justle now is in all christendome , whether he or they , that by permission have had it so long from Christ , who onely hath the commission for it , shall be King of Kings and Lord of Lords , hitherto Christ hath reigned in the world as Charles the second hath reigned in England , and no otherwise i. e. hath reigned in the hearts of a few of his friends and followers . But I perceive the Gospel or good news of the Kingdome of Christ coming , which is to be preached more had more before the end , is yet a riddle to Mr. Ba. and though I hope it will be , if seeing he will see , yet t is not yet given him to know the mystery and manner of Christs Kindome . Thirdly , whereas he saies that the Kingdom taken in the larger sense i. e. for the world cannot be meant here , but the church onely by this phrase the Kingdomes of the Lord and his Christ , I strongly assert that of all places in Scripture the word Kingdomes of Christ cannot here be construed for the church , that the church cannot be meant in that phrase , but the Kingdomes in the largest sense i. e. the whole world , and directly oppositly to Mr. Ba. who saies it is the church , I disprove his opinion thus , First , If by the kingdomes of Christ be meant the Church , then it must be thus read , viz. the Kingdomes of this world are become Christs Church , but what an absurdity must that be , specially with Mr. Bax. above all men , who so strenuously contends that by the word Kingdoms of this world is meant not in part only , but the whole kingdom ? for to hold that by that phrase the Kingdomes of this world is meant all the kingdomes upon the earth , taken wholly , and not Synechdochically for a part of those kingdomes onely , and that by the kingdom of Christ the Church onely , is to make the sense thus , viz. the whole world is become Christs Church , therefore it cannot be so , but thus ( and so all the circumstances of the text do evince , for it is spoken of Christs raign over all the world in the latter daies , after the seventh Trumpet hath sounded , and not over all his Church onely , and of Christs taking to himself ver . 17. that great Monarchy , power , kingdome , or greatnesse and glory of his reign , which before he permitted to be in the hands of the Dragon , beast and whore , so that they reigned over the whole earth , and the saints too in rigour , and unrighteousnesse Rev. 13. Rev. 17. ult . I say it must be thus viz. the Kingdomes of this world , the Kingdomes under the whole heaven , the Monarchy of the whole Earth is now come into Christs own hands , or the Government over all is now actually on his shoulders . Besides what will Mr. Bax. gain more by his sense of that Scripture towards the proof of his infant-membership then I for the membership of heathen infants , then for the Church membership of the whole world , if I were minded to plead for it , if the Kingdomes of this world wholly taken , none excluded , do become the Church of Christ then all men as well as infants must be Church-members on that account . Besides he speaks as de futuro what shall be under the seventh Trumpet , therefore if it were to be taken as Mr. Bax. imagines that the Kingdomes of this world , infants as well as men , are now become Christs Church , then it would evince that it was not so from the beginning of the Gospel Church , for what effects are spoken of as falling out now newly under the seventh Trumoet , are things that never were in being before . Besides observe Mr. Baxter how he pleads to have Kingdomes taken in the largest sense in the former part of the verse , and how angry he is if it be taken for lesser then all the whole kingdomes of the world , but in the latter part where Kingdomes must needs be , and is as largely to be taken ( for it is the Kingdomes of the world are become Christs Kingdomes , i. e. dominion , not Christs churches ) there he will needs lace it up into the narrowest acceptation that the word kingdom can possibly bear . Oh therefore the grosse pieces of ignorance , that are in that Argument of his for infants membership in the Church , which he grounds from a Scripture , that will as well prove all the world to be Gospel Church-members as believers infants , if his very own false sense of it should be admitted , but in truth proves not the one nor the other ; thus he argues viz. the Kingdoms of this world , i. e. all , and all in them shall become Christs kingdomes , therefore infants of only believers , not heathens , are Church-members under the Gospel . He that saies this followes any better then the Pope follows Peter in the holy chaire shall never be counted , or voted mentis compos , whilest I am compos voti . Mr. Bax. therefore had better have found 40 shillings , where he never looked for it , then have looked for infant-membership in this scripture , where he will never find it with his eyes open . His three next Arguments , viz. the ninth , tenth , and eleventh run all upon one strain , and therefore as he need not have made more then one of them , so I need not make more then one answer to them all , yea , I need make none at all , having spoken to that point sufficiently before , yet a hint of it here may do no hurt . They stand all upon one bottome , viz. the meliority of the times under the Gospel above the times of the Law , of this new covenant above the old , the summe of what he saies is this , if believers infants may not now be members of the visible Church , then both Jewes and Gentiles are in a worse condition now then before Christ , and Christ is come to be a destroyer , and not a Saviour , and to do hurt to all the world , the believing Jewes , and the Church ; yea and the very Gentiles thereby , in regard of the happinesse of their children , are in a worse condition then of old , but this is a vile doctrine , saith he , for Jesus is a Mediator of a better covenant established on better promises Heb. 8.6 . where sin abounded grace much more abounded , Rom. 5.14 , 15.20 . and the love of Christ love hath height , length , depth , breadth , and passeth knowledge Ephes. 3. To which simple inconsequent conceits I answer by denying the consequence , it followes not that the world is in worse estate under Christ then before , because infants might be members of the Jewish church , but not now of any visible church of the Gospel , nay verily the world is in a far better condition then formerly , by how much they are under more clear , and plain promulgations , more fa●re and universal tenders of salvation , then in the narrow or shadowy dispensation of the Law , and also under greater love , richer grace , better and more glorious promises , unlesse they fall short of them , through their own unbelief , then those which were made to the natural Israelites onely , all whose glory was but a type of the other , for the great favor , love and promises of God to them , as meerly Abraham , Isaac and Iacobs natural seed , unlesse they also believed , and then they , as now all the world might be heirs with Abraham of the grace and promises of the Gospel , did make them heirs of that earthly Canaan onely : but the Gospel grace makes all men heirs on termes of faith and obedience to Christ , of the glory of the heavenly Canaan for ever , the grace of God that bringeth salvation unto all men now appears : and as for infants , albeit no infants now be baptized into fellowship with the visible Church , nor are priviledged as the Jewes infants once were with interest in the blessing of an outward earthly Canaan , nor yet vouchsafed that meerly titular account , of sanctifyed and peculiar people of God , as in opposition to other infants , as by birth , accountatively sinners , common and unclean , which distinction of a birth holiness and uncleaness Mr. Baxter had he but half an eye in his head might clearly see Acts 10.28 . is so taken out of the world and ended in Christ , that now no man however born , no not a Gentile may be called in that sense as the Gentiles were of old in reference to the Jewes , either common or unclean , and if no man can be called by birth common or unclean in reference to other , then none may be called by birth holy in reference to other , for this birth holinesse and uncleannesse are such Correlatives that the one cannot be supposed to be in the world without the other ; albeit I say no infants have now such standings in such external happines and salvation , yet they are in no les capacity to be saved then the Jews children of old , & so neither their parents whoever they be , in any worse condition in regard of their comforts in their children , whether they dy infants , or live to years , then the godliest Jewes were in regard of theirs , for either infants dy in infancy , or else do not , if any mans infants dy in such nonage as in which they never committed actual transgression , our Ashford Pamphlet tells us they have not deserved to be exempted from the generall state of little infants declared in Scripture , viz. that of such is the Kingdome of heaven , yea I wonder what should damn such dying infants , as never had iniquity of their own , sith God himself assures us that the son shall not dy i. e. eternally for the iniquity of his father , but every soul that dyes shall dy onely for his own iniquity , Ezekiel 18. and no better hopes could be harboured of the Godliest Jewes infants then this , that dying infants they were not damned . But if any mans children , even his that is ungodly and prophane , do live to years , then if they believe and obey the Gospel , the tender of which is to every creature , they may be saved though their parents be wicked , when Iewes children not doing so , shall be damned , for all their father Abrahams faith , and their own Church-membership for a time , and that with so much the greater condemnation : whereas the●efore Mr. Ba. tells us such a story of a meliority of being in the visible Church rather then out , I tell him it is not universally true , but as it may happen , for besides that children may aswell be prayed for , and instructed by their godly parents , remaining unbaptized , and non-members in their nonage , as if in infancy they be admitted to both , it may so fall out , and mostly it did among the Iewes , that a lifting up to heaven in respect of participation of outward priviledges and ordinances , may prove an occasion unhappily through their abuse of it , of their sinking deeper into hell . His next Argument is drawn from Deut. 29 , 10.11.12 . a place that doth as well prove that all the wives and the servants , and the slaves , even all the hewers of wood and drawers of water are to be taken into Covenant with God , as his , and admitted into Church-membership upon the Membership of Masters , and Husbands , as little ones upon the membership of the Fathers ; and so indeed it was in those daies , wherein the whole body of the Nation was inchurched together , though not so now , therefore though I might easily discover that ( yea he is blind that sees it not in the same chapter , notwithstanding it is alledged in that allusion of Paul in the tenth chapter of the Romans to that place ) to be no other then that covenant which was made with the nation in particular , which God brought out of Aegypt , yet I shall trouble my self to say no more to it then so . His 13 Argument is from Rom. 4.11 . where circumcision is said to be a seal of the righteousnesse of the faith which Abraham had , is answer'd above , where I have given out the genuine sense of that place , and disproved that crooked construction , which is by others aswell as him commonly made of it , therefore I le say no more to it here . His 14 Argument is also answered , but a little above , where I have shew'd the inchurching of that fleshly seed to be ceremonial , and also what it typed out , therfore no more of that also in this place . His 15. plain Scripture-lesse proof for infants present churchmembership and baptism is this viz. If all infants , who were members of any particular Church , were also Members of the Vniversall Visible Church , then certainly the Membership of infants , he means by vertue of the membership of their parents , is not repealed . But all infants who were &c. Ergo. The consequence saith he is beyond dispute , because the universal Church never ceaseth here , yea the whole Argument so clear , that were there no more it is sufficient . To which as unanswerable as he judges it , I answer first by denying the consequence of his Major , as most flatly false and inconsequent . Secondly , by saying as Mr. T. did , whose answer is both solid and sufficient viz. that infants membership in the universal visible church was only by reason of their then membership in that particular national church , neither can Mr. Ba. while he breathes prove them to have bin members of that universal visible , as he calls it , but as they were members of that , and therefore when that particular , nationall church of the Jewes ceased , the standing of infants as members upon the meer account of their parents membership ceased also therewith , as one of the things that were not essentiall to a church , but circumstantial onely to that church , as one of the particular accidental ceremonies pertaining onely to that individual nationall church ; for accidental ceremonies Mr. Ba. himself confesses , and must confesse did cease still with that particular church , to which particularly they related , otherwise he will be paid home with his own weapon , and in his own coin , yea if Mr. Baxters consequence be true , and if it be not so as we say , that accidentall ceremonies , and so this accidental ceremony , and circumstance of infants being members upon the membership of their parents , did cease with that particular church of the Iews , t will passe all the braines Mr. Ba. hath in his head to answer his own argument , if we retort it on him in proof of that which he denies , as much as we do the inchurching of infants upon the fathers membership viz. the inchurching of wives , and servants to this day upon the membership of their husbands and masters , for whereas he argues thus viz. if all infants who were members of any particular church were also members of the universal visible church , then certainly the membership of infants by vertue of their parents membership is not repealed , but all &c. Ergo What answer will he make , if we answer him by arguing back upon him thus viz. if all wives and servants , who were members by vertue of their husbands and masters membership of any particular visible church , were also members of the universall visible church , then certainly the membership of wives and servants , hewers of wood , and drawers of water , by vertue of their husbands and masters membership , is not repealed , but all &c. Ergo. I leave it to wise men to consider and examine whether Mr. Bs. argument doth not as fully tend to the proof of it that the wives and servants ought , as of old , to stand members in the visible church now , upon the husbands and masters membership , as infants upon the membership of their parents . Several other palpable absurdities are obvious to every observant eye in his amplification of this argument , which whoever notes , will take heed of pinning his faith implicitly on Mr. Bs. sleeve , and of listning to his Logick , so as to be led by it besides all sense and reason . To say nothing to his universall visible , which is little lesse then a visible bull , for sensus , adeoque visus est propriè solummodò singularium , intellectus universalium , the proper object of sense , and so of sight is particulars onely , and universalls onely properly of the understanding , yet this universal visible church is the universal vision , and dream of the universal Clergy , but to bate them the baldnesse of that term , and grant that there is a Catholike visible church , is there any unversal visible church , but what is existent in , and made up of all the particular visible churches ? I trow not : yea that was wont to be good Logick , and Theology too heretofore , to say that all the particulars make up the unversal , that the universall visible Church , and all the particular visible Churches are adaequate , and convertible , yea Dr. Featley p. 12. makes the universall visible church , and all the particular visible churches equivalent , the universal or formall church saith he i. e. all the assemblies of Christians in the world : the whole is not broader then all its parts collectively taken , nor without its parts , for omne totum ex suis partibus constituitur , ordinatur , mensuratur , determinatur , every whole consists of its parts , is measured and determined by its parts , and so the whole universal visible Church , and all the homogeneall parts of it simul sumtae i. e. all the particular visible churches taken together , are of equall latitude ; so that he that is of a any particular visible church must needs be of the who●e , and he that is of the whole universall visible must needs be of some particular visible church , yea cui adimuntur omnes partes totius universalis , eidem etiam totum universale adimi necesse est , whoever is not a part of some part or other i. e. of some particular visible church , cannot be a part of the whole i. e. the universal visible : this I say is the Logick and Theology , which was wont to passe for currant among your selves , but Mr. Ba. learnes men a new kind of Logick viz. that all the parts put together are not so big as the whole , that the universall visible church is larger then all the particular visible churches in the world , of which yet it consists , so that there is room enough for a person to stand a member in the universal visible church , though he be of no particular visible church at all ; I ever understood yet that he , who is removed and cast out of all the particular visible churches of the Saints , is consequently cast out of the universal visible church , but he tells me a tale that to be removed out of every particular visible church , is consistent still with a standing in the universal visible : so that excomunication out of all the particular visible churches in the world , is not excomunication out of the whole visible church with him . Another thing worth noting , though worth nothing , is this , he tells us there that Keturahs children , when they left the family of Abraham , that they continued members of the universal visible church still , which compared with the clause above , where he tells us that it is a far higher priviledge to stand in the universal visible church then to stand in any particular whatsoever , amounts to thus much viz. that the Midianites , for they were some of Keturahs children , had far higher priviledges , then those that the Israelites had by being members of that particular visible church of Israel , which if it were so , then we may say what advantage hath the Iew indeed , and what profit by circumcision , and by Gods commission of his oracles unto them ? yea what necessity of circumcision of themselves , and their males at all for any strangers , or of joining themselves to that particular church of the Jewes , sith they might have had as high priviledges if they had joined themselves to the seed of Abraham by Keturah , of whose posterity circumcision , nor the strict law it bound to was not required , and so consequently what need of baptism , if persons might be of the uniuersal visible , which is the greater , though not of the particular visible church of the Iews , without circumcision and keeping the law ? But it is a question with Mr. Bax. whether Keturahs children must leave their seed uncircumcisied p. 60. yet I tell him it is out of question , that unlesse it were in order to joining , and inchurching themselves with that individual Church of of the Iewes , to which pertained peculiarly the adoption , and glory , and covenants , and law , and promises , and which was all the visible church , that I know God had then upon the earth , circumcision was not enjoined to any other of Abrahams own posterity , not the Ishmalites , nor Midianites , but those onely that came of Sarah by Isaac and Iacob , for the covenant , of which circumcision was a sign , was establisht with none of them , but with Isaac onely and with Iacob , and his seed after him , and so many as should join themselves unto them . Many more odd conceits about this universal visible church , Mr. Ba. broaches , but I spare him , and hasten to what followes . His 16. plain Scripture-lesse proof for infants church-membership and baptism is from a clause in the second command●ment viz. I will shew mercy to 1000 s of them that love me , and keep my commandements , a phrase out of which a man may as easily prove the Pope to be head of the church , as prove either of those points in proof of which he doth produce it . Yet oh the miserable muddy , wretched , ragged , crooked , cloudy piece of disputation for infant baptism , which this man makes from that place ! For my part I mean not to wander after him in that wildernesse of worthlesse discourse , that he vents about mercy , Church covenant , promises , nor am I so wise as to wot what he means , nor so foolish as to believe he knows well what he means himself by much of that he there utters , or else he would never say that wicked men in the church are within the covenant , and so have this mercy spoken of in the second commandement stated on them by promise ; as if wicked men in the church were in some special wise beloved of God , when yet they are more hateful to him by far then heathens . It is enough to serve my present purpose , that what proof Mr. Baxter pens in the head of this argumentation , his own pen dashes it all out again in the taile of it . For first after a great deal of wrestling to make the mercy here promised to thousands of them that love God , necessarily to include church-membership , he confesses at last that it lies doubtful in the text what mercy in particular is there meant , which if he do , then t is not necessary that church-membership be implied in it , for there may be much mercy , yea special , yea eternal saving mercy shewed to persons , to whom the mercy of membership in the visible church and baptism is not vouchsafed , or else what becomes of such infants , as notwithstanding your timely admittance , do yet dy without both membership and baptism ? are they shut out of the kingdom of heaven ? Secondly , he confesses it is doubtfull in the text to how many generations God shewes mercy to the children of parents that love him , whether it be to the remote or neerest progeny onely ; and though he passe his judgement that it is onely to immediate children of godly parents , that the promise in the commandment is made , yet thereby he contradicts his own sense of the place , and overthrowes all that he contends for , in that if the words were as he would have them read , viz. I shew mercy to a thousand Generations , or to the thousandth generation of them that love me , it were evident that he meant not the next generation only , for that to a thousand generation should signifie no more then one generation to come is most irrational , and plain brutish to imagine ; and if he say t is to a thousand generations , if such children succeed their parents in godlynesse , that sense excludes infants quite from the mercy here promised , and extends it to such children onely as are at years , and that on condition of being godly themselves , and on that condition of being godly themselves God shewes mercy to the immediate seed of the very wickedest parents , as well as of the Godliest parents in the world . But in very deed to put him out of all his doubts at once about this place , viz. whether God mean the remote or immediate children , I desire Mr. Baxter to consider that this promise is not made to any mans posterity at all , but only to all such individual persons as love him , and keep his commandements , for the words are not as he reads , and construes them , viz. I will shew mercy to a thousand generations of them , but to thousands of them that love me , i. e. to thousands of such people , such persons as love me and keep my Commandments ; and so if the mercy were that of membership , yet it were nothing concerning infants in their infancy at all , but concerning thousands of such individual persons as love him and keep his commandments , or else God must shew mercy to all infants in their infancy to this day , meerly for their father Noahs sake , though the immediate parents be wicked , and if he he do not he shewes not mercy to the thousandth generation of believers infants , there being not a thousand generations from Noah to this day . We may see what little plain proof these men can find for their false way of inchurching and baptizing of infants in the New Testament , in that they are faine to fetch it so far off as the old , thus doth not Mr. Ba. onely but others also as well as he , who would certainly never look for it so far behind as he second commanment , if they could easily find it neerer hand : among the rest this mindes me of one of more then ordinary note , viz. Dr. Channell of Petworth in Sussex , who Ianuary the first 1651. in a publique discourse with my unworthy self , being desired to assign some particular place of Scripture , where Christ commands the practise of infant-baptism , assigned the second commandment , to whom as I said then before hundreds of people , so I testify here again before the whole world , that if any man see infants baptism commanded in the second Commandment it is because his eyes are out : for though he tell me that the generall scope of the second Commandment is to command all Gods people to observe all Gods institutions from time to time , yet I tell him again , as also I did then , that infant baptism is none of those institutions , yea I tell him yet further , and Mr. Bax. also , that unlesse it can be made appear by plainer Scripture proofs then ever were yet brought by either of them , that Christ Jesus injoined the baptizing and inchurching of infants , or that its any other then a tradition of man , and an addition to the Gospel , which was not so from the beginning , and that is more then either of them will ever make plainly to appear , the second Commandement doth rather forbid them both , yea ( Ah si fas dicere ! sed fas ) the second commandement , the general scope of which , as their own selves expound it , is to prohibit all will worship and superstition , all serving of God after our own invention , all customes , devices , innovations , Traditions of men , all addi●ion to and alterations of Christs will and Testament , all teaching other doctrine then is contained in the word , doth forbid , it , and therefore as haled in by head and shoulders to serve the turn of these men , and to help to uphold them in their rantizing of infants into the same visible body with them , whom yet they deny to drink with them into the same spirit , as all that are baptized into the same body are to do 1 Cor. 12. which infellowshipping persons by the halves into Gospel participation , if it be of Christ , what else is of man I plainly know not . His 17 plain Scripture-lesse proof for infants Church-membership and baptism is drawn from Psalm . 37.26 . where it is said that the seed of the Righteous are blessed , whence he argues as before , and therefore need not have made a distinct Argument of this , if God have pronounced the seed of the righteous blessed , then certainly they are members of his visible Church , its absurd once to imagine quoth he , that god should pronounce a society blessed , and take them for none of his visible Church . But I am ashamed of such trifling stuff , such straw , and stubble as he here builds upon , as if God himself can no way be said to blesse the seed of the righteous , unlesse he require them to be baptized , and inchurched visibly in their infancy , as if God had but one blessing , even that of baptism and church-membership , upon which all other blessings are so eternally intailed , even to infants , that such of them as attain not to an actual inrerest in these are ipso facto accursed in all respects else & that for ever , wheras to say nothing how that phrase the seed of the righteous may be taken for the race of righteous ones , that succeed one another in righteousnesse , as well as a seed of evil doers Is. 1.4 . for the whole race of evill doers , that succeed their fore-fathers in evil doing , for these indeed I take to be the seed to which the Scripture oft pronounces blessing and cursing , and not alwayes the meer natural seed of good men and bad , for then there is manifest falsehood in many promises and threats , the natural seed of righteous men often perishing , and being not counted their own fathers children , unlesse they be like them in righteousnesse as Iohn 8.39 . Christ denies Abrahams natural children to be Abrahams children , and blessed with him , because they did not as Abraham did , and contrary wise the natural seed of the wicked prospering , when they do well , contrary to Prov. 2.21.22 . Is. 20.14 . Ps. 37 20. if the word seed were there taken for the natural seed , where it is said the seed of evill doers shall never be renowned ; And so the seed of the serpent , and the children of the devil expresses those that do his works , to say nothing I say of this , which yet is enough to blunt the edge of Mr. Bas. argument , grant the word seed here to be taken for the natural seed of the righteous , even those in infancy may be many wayes blessed though they neither be baptized in infancy nor inchurched , yea they may be blessed with eternal salvation , dying in infancy , without either baptism or membership in the visible Church , for I hope you will not say those 1000s . of Jewes and belieuers infants , that have died before circumcision , baptism , and visible admission , are damned without any more ado , because they fell short of your admired membership , and if these be blessed with salvation to whom you delay baptism , why not those to whom we deny it ? doth our denying baptism to an infant before he dies send him to hell sooner then your delaying it till he be dead ? But however the seed of the righteous may be blessed with many temporal blessings , as provision , fruitfulnesse , multiplication , and yet not be taken into the visible Church , and to say the truth if Mr. Ba. had not been resolved to wrest this Scripture besides its true sense , to botch up his proofs into a multitude , he might easily have seen by consultation with the verse before that it is not such a thing as membership , that is here meant by the word blessed , but meer matter of outward sustentation ; I never saw the righteous forsaken , nor his seed begging bread ; he is ever merciful and lendeth and his seed is blessed i. e. provided for , and preserved from beggery , and considered by others in time of adversity , as he considered others in the like case . And lastly , whereas he challenges us to shew where ever God pronounced any blessed , and yet took them for none of his visible Church ? saying t is absurd once to imagine it that he did , I assert it is most absurd in him to imagine the contrary , for God himself by promise pronounced Ishmael blessed , saying as for Ishmael behold I haved blessed him , and I will make him fruitful , and multiply him exceedingly , and make him a nation , because he is thy seed : and this at the very same time when he denied to establish the Covenant with him , which he establisht with Isaac , and commanded that he should be cast out of Abrahams family from sharing with Isaac in that very covenant , which Mr. Baxter contends with all his might p. 64 65. that whoever are not in it are not under the promise of the mercy , which Church-membership is with him a speciall part of . In proof of this consider and compare Gen. 17.18.19.20.21 . with Gen. 21.10.11.12.13 . as if there were no blessing but that of Church-membership , or at least no blessing without this of Church-membership , whereas , as admired a mercy as this meer membership is with Mr. Baxter , persons may be blessed without it , and also ( witnesse the Jewish Nation , which for the most part were reprobates ) they may have admission to the meer mercy , and bare blessing of membership , and yet perish and be accursed for ever . The 18th . plain Scripture-less proof for infant Church-membership and baptism is this . If infants were Church-members before circumcision was instituted , then certainly it was not proper to the Iews , and consequently is not ceased , but infants are , therefore . The Minor of which argument Mr. Baxter endeavours to prove aswell as he can , and this he doth , First , partly by perverting the sense of the text Mal. 2.25 . where it is said God made two one i. e. instituted the ordinance of marriage between man and woman , that he might seek a seed of God i. e. a legitimate Issue , for legitimacy onely in the issue is the result of marriage , and that among what parents soever , even heathens as well as others , for whom as well as others that state of marriage is sanctified , yet Mr. Baxter saies he made two one , or ordained marriage that he might seek a seed of God in another sense , that better serves his turn i. e. to seek Church-members , as if Church-membership in the seed , were the direct result of the state of matrimony in the parents , which every simpleton knowes to be false for marriage is honourable among all , and was ordained for all mankind as well as the Godly , and yet the seed are not therefore Church-members ; besides marriage was instituted in the state of innocency , to this end that mankind might be propagated in a more modest way then other creatures , and not that the seed so propagated might be Church-members . Secondly , partly by a heap of frivolous conjectures of his own , in which a man may warrantably enough chuse whether he will believe him or no , but whether his Minor viz. that infants were Church-members before circumcision was instituted be true or false it makes nothing to his purpose unlesse he had made surer work in his Maior ; for that is so inconsequent , and utterly unsound that had I happened to have heard his argument before it came in Print , I should have spared him all his paines about the Minor , and have put him to the proof of his Major , the consequence of which hee 'l never make good by fair play while he breathes ; for there were many things long before circumcision was instituted , which were proper , if not to the Jewes till the Jewes were in being , yet to the ceremoniall law that was after more clearly given to the Jewes , and to that old Testament of which Moses was the Mediator , and circumcision the sign , and the Jewes the subject , and yet were tipicall and ceremonial onely , and so ceased together with circumcision , as the keeping the seventh day , the sacrifices , the cleannesse and uncleannesse of certain creatures , and ( if that were at all before circumcision , as Mr. Ba. does not plainly prove it to be ) among the rest the Church-membership of infants . His 19. plain Scripture-lesse proof is this . If God be not more prone to severity then to mercy , then he will admit of infants to be members of the visible Church but God &c. therefore &c. Oh the wit of this man how wonderfully doth it work , and wind to and fro , and wander far and neer to fetch in any manner of fewell , wherewith to feed that false faith men live in , concerning infant baptism , for fear it should be quite extinguished , and brought to nothing . Ex nihilo nihil fit in an ordinary way , but such is the extraordinary eagerness of Mr. Ba. to have the game go his way , by either fair play or foul , that he is wise to extract something out of any thing , and any thing out of just nothing to his purpose : this that God is not more prone to severity then mercy , may serve , and that soundly to make against those that say God is willing to save but a few , and did peremptorily determine to damn personally an 100 men to one before they were born , and that without reference to their soreseen rejection of his grace , but how it seems to make a jot against such as suppose the salvation of all dying infants , denying onely infants meer membership in meer gospell fellowship , I must professe my self too shallow to conceive , yea I am astonisht , saving that the word tells me the seers must be blinded for teaching Gods fear after mens precepts , that the the ministers should buzze such a businesse abroad in print viz. that if infants be not now Church-members , then God is more prone to severity then to mercy , and then back it so baldly too as Mr. Ba. does : it is evident thus saith he God hath cut off multitudes of wicked mens infants both from the Church , and from life for the sins of their progenitors viz. Dathan and Abirams , Achans , Amalecks , the Midianites , Daniels accusers , the Hittites , Amorites , Canaanites , Perrezites , and Jebusites , therefore if he should not admit of some infants of faithful men so much as to the visible Church , then he should be more prone to severity then to mercy . I cannot but inwardly blush at Mr. Bas. blindnesse , as if God had no way whereby to vindicate the honour of his mercy , and clear himself from the censure of more severe then merciful , but one , that is by giving commission to us , which yet he no where gives us in any part of his will and Testament , to baptize and inchurch some infants : as if he had no way to recover to his credit again to his most merciful name of the Lord , mercifull , gracious , and slow to anger since his cutting off so many infants toge●her with their wicked parents by meer temporal death , and to make amends as it were for all the slaughters , that he made of innocent infants , with their rebellious fathers in the daies of the law , unlesse in liew thereof he grant some infants of faithful men to be members of his visible Churches , and in visible fellowship with them in the daies and ages of the Gospel . Who sees not the weaknesse , the wretchednesse of this consequence ? yet so it is with Mr. Ba. that God is more prone to severity then mercy if he now admit no infants into the visible Church under the Gospel , except saith he , it be proved that God giveth them some greater mercy out of the Church . To which exception of his I say thus . First , it need not be proved , and yet his consequence will prove false , for if the meer admitting of some faithful mens infants into the visible Church will so make up the matter as to salve God from censure of pronesse to severity , rather then mercy , and magnifie his mercy so as to make it appear to be that he delights in more then judgement , notwithstanding his severity in slaying so many infants with the parents , then God magnfied his mercy in that kind of way sufficiently to make amends for that severity in the very time of the law it self , forasmuch as then he did admit for 2000 years together not onely some infants of faithfull men , but in all that time innumerable infants of unfaithful and wicked men ( for such were the Jewes for the most part in their several generations and yet such infants your selves would not now have admitted ) to stand in the vrsible and national Church of the Jewes . And so there is no need of any admittance of infants now , in order to such an end as satisfaction for his severity to some infants of old , into visible fellowship with Gospel Churches . Secondly , to satisfie him further it may easily be proved that God giveth infants , if they die in their infancy unbaptized and not inchurched ( for if they live to years they may be baptized all , and inchurched too , if they believe ) a greater mercy then that of meer church-membership here on earth , for they having never committed any actuall sins whereby to deserve exemption , charity teaches us to believe , and hope thus much saies the Ashford Pamphlet of all such , that of such is the kindom of heaven . One thing more I cannot but take notice of in this passage not in way of contradiction to Mr. Ba. but in way of discovery how contradictory unto him some of his brethren are , who mannage the same cause with him , that they may either close more hand somely together , or else excuse us if we believe none of them till they be agreed more among themselves , for whereas Mr. Baxter layes it down as the manner of old that when the parents sinned and broke Gods covenant so as to deserve to be discovenanted thereupon , the children that had right to stand by the Quondam membership of their parents , were wont to be discovenanted , dischurched , and sometimes destroyed with them ; I find the fornamed Dr. Channell of another mind , for when in a second publique discourse with him at Petworth on Ianuary 5.1651 . I asserted his practise to be contradictory to his own judgement , forasmuch as his judgement was that believers infants onely were in covenant with God , and in right to Church-membership and baptism , and yet his practise to baptize all or most of the infants in his parish , not one of many of whose parents he judged to be believers , as appeaed by his refusing communion with them for many years together in the supper , He gave answer to this purpose , viz. that the parent , i. e. believing ( or else the child hath no right secundum te O Presbyter ) may sin himself out of covenant again , out of all communion in the Church , and be damned , and yet the child stand still in right to baptism and membership which he had by the faith of those parents ; which as it thwarts the wonted way of discovenanting , dischurching of children with the parents , so it contradicts himself more another way , though he evade his first contradiction by it , to say that believing parents ( for such onely say your selves give right to their infants to be baptized ) may sinne themselves out of covenant , and be damned , for though as I then told him he preached it in saying thus , yet I am perswaded he holds no falling from grace . More things I take notice that that Dr. and Mr. Bax. knock heads in , but I spare to do more then advise them to accord better with each other , but specially each of them with himself , or else as implicitly as men have believed them heretofore , they will try them ere long , and scarce trust them any longer . His 20 Plain Scripture-lesse proof for infant churchmembership and baptism he drawes as he saies from Deut. 28.4.18 32.41 . blessed shall they be in the fruit of their body that keep the covenant , and cursed in the fruit of their body● i. e. that break the covenant &c. he may well say he drawes it , for there 's no such thing as he draws flowes freely from that or any other Scripture he produces , he drawes indeed , but at such a distance , that I see nothing followes from thence at all : he does not fall flatly upon it , nor deal down rightly with the text alledged , nor doth he interpret the blessing and cursing to be membership , and non-membership , so as to say that by blessed shall be the fruit of thy body is meant thus , i. e. thy infants shall be inchurched , and by cursed shall be the fruit of thy body thus , i. e. thy infants shall be dischurched , for that had been too palpably to pervert it , but he keeps a loof off from it , and doth not draw neer to the heart and center of it , but syllogizes in a circumference , and fetches it from far for fear , I think , least it should fly in his face . The Argument that I fetch hence is this . That doctrine , which maketh the children of the faithfull to be in a worse condition , or as bad , then the curse Deut. 28. maketh the children of covenant breakers to be in , is false doctrine . But the doctrine which denyeth the children of the faithfull to be visible Churchmembers , doth make them to be in as bad or worse condition then is threatned by the curse Deut. 28. Therefore . The Minor of which Syllogism is most false , for infants may be both unbaptized and no visible Church members , and yet be in a better condition then such as are under the curse , and the captivity threatned Deut. 28. and so are all these to whom baptism and admittance into the visible Church is delayed by yourselves , who in the Church of England in old time were wont to defer the baptizing of all infants to two times in the year , viz. Easter and Whitsuntide , and so are all those also to whom we deny it , for both those to whom you delay it , and those to whom we deny it , dying in infancy without it , may be saved without it as well as if they had it . And at the same rates as they dispute them to be under cursing to whom we deny baptism , and visible Church-membership , and our doctrine to be false that denies it , may we dispute those infants to be under cursing , to whom they delay baptism and visible membership , though but for a week during the time of their delaying it , and their doctrine to be false that delaies it , if we retort the same Argument on themselves , which I shall do and leave it . That doctrine which makes the children of the faithful in as bad or worse condition then is threatned in that curse Deut. 28. is false . But that doctrine which delaies baptism and visible Church-membership to the infants of the faithfull till the tenth , twelfth , or twentyeth day of their age , till Plumcake be made , maketh them during the time in which t is delayed in worse Condition then is threatned in that curse , Deuter. 28. Ergo t is false . Till then you have ingrafted your children into the Church by baptism they are it seems with you in worse state then if they were in captivity , and all the poor innocent infants of those parents that are in England , to which your selves ( O Presbyters ) deny baptism , unlesse the parent will confesse his faith before the Bason , are in worse and more cursed condition then if they were in captivity . And if an Indians infant should be born and bread up here in England , and be in never such a hopeful way of comming in time to the knowledge of the truth , yet all the time he remains unbaptiz'd , and not visibly added to your corrupt church of England , he is belike under a worse curse , and condition then if he were in slavery or captivity : I wonder where Christ or his disciples ever preached such kind of Gospel . His 21 plain . Scripture-lesse proof for infant-Church membership and baptism runs upon this disjunction , viz. Either they are in the visible Church of Christ or in the visible kingdome of the Devil , for there is no third state , saith he , in which they are , but if they be not in Christs visible Church they are visibly out of it , and if they be visibly out of that visible Church then they are visibly in Satans Kingdome . This is the summe and substance of what he laies down , and the basis upon which he builds a necessity of admitting the children of the faithfull into , and reckoning upon them as in the visible Church of Christ , or else we must ( saith he ) say they are in the visible Kingdome of the Devill ; which to say saith he is false doctrine ; the rest is but amplification and augmentation rather then Argumentation of this position ; now howbeit a wise body that is not resolved to trouble himself , and fill the world with curious pryings , long proofs , and prolix prates about matters , which the wisdome of Christ in the word of his Testament , which was written to , for and concerning men and women , and not infants , is pleased to be silent in , would surely have sat down satisfyed with that sober saying , which Mr. B. himself cotes out of Mr. T. Apol. p. 66. viz. that infants are neither in the Kingdom ( i. e. visible church ) of Christ , nor Satan visibly till profession . For really so it is , and no otherwise properly , and quoad nos , who have no warrant to take cognizance of them as in either one or in the other visibly , but as at years they visibly appear to cleave to either , neither are these two , viz. the visible Kingdome of Satan , and the visible Church of Christ the adaequate dividing members of the whole world , but ( excepting infants ) of the adult ones in it only , which visibly obey either Christ or Satan ; neither doth Satans visible kingdome consist of any infants visibly at all , but of such as visibly are acted by him , even the children of disobedience , in whom he works Ephes. 2.2 . nor Christs visible Church of any infants visibly at all , save when some were inchurched and incovenanted as a type for a time , but of such onely as visibly obey him , these I say are visibly the subjects , servants , disciples and children of each Rom. 6. his servants ye are , i. e. visibly , to whom i. e. visibly ye obey , whether &c. 1 Ioh. 3.10 . in this i. e. doing or not doing righteousnesse are manifest , i. e. visibly , the children of God , and of the devll so Iohn 8. They are visibly of their father the devil , who do the works of their father i. e. in Gospel account ; for else in the lawes account they , as Abrahams seed , were then the Churches children , howbeit I say any one that is not willing to be wise above what is written , and to have vision of more then is visible , would rest in this , yet sith Mr. B. will put us positivly to prove a third state , denying that there 's any medium asserting that infants , if they be not in the visible Church of Christ in their infancy , are in the visible kingdome of the devil , which to say is false doctrine , I shall bring Mr. Baxter to stop the mouth of Mr. Baxter and to convince him that either there is a third state , in which believers infants are in their infancy , which is neither of these two , or else to drive him to that Dilemma , to preach this false doctrine himself that believers infants are in the visible kingdome of the Devil . To this purpose I first demand of him , which of these two viz. the visible church of Christ or the visible kingdome of the devil believers infants are visibly in before baptism ? First as for the visible kingdom of the devil he must say they are either visibly in it or out of it , if he say they are in it , then he himself preaches that false doctrine , which he saies is ours , and makes all infants , even of believers members of the visible kingdom of the devil ; if he say they are out , and not in the visible kingdom of the devil , then that doctrine , which teaches men to leave them unbaptized , and denies them to be admitted members of the visible church of Christ till they come to age , is not guilty as he saies it is , of making them doctrinally members of the visible kingdome of the devil , for it is but a delay indeed till they can do what is required to baptism . As for the visible Church of Christ he must say they are either visibly in it before baptism , or not in but out of it , if he say they are in the visible church of Christ visibly before baptism , then they cannot be said to be ( as oh how oft ore and ore again are they said to be by Mr. Bax. p. 24.25 . ? ) admitted to be members , entered , listed , added , initiated into it as into Christs School , and first stated into it by baptism , for to be first entered into it by baptism , and yet to be visibly in it before baptism , these two are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 utterly inconsistent each with other , as to be let into a room when , and while one is already in the room is impossible , yet with Mr. B. persons are let into the visible church after they are in it , yea they must be in it , saith he , before they may be admitted to be in it , nor will his distinction of a member compleat and incompleat p. 24. which he used before to the tearm disciple , which I know he will make , help him at all here , sith with himself an incompleat member is one that hath but jus adrem , not in re , ad Ecclesiam , not in Ecclesia a right to onely , not a standing in the Church , a title to the relative change , and not a being yet in that relative change , that he saies passes upon him by baptism . Besides , to say the truth they are but incompleat members after baptism , whom you baptize , sith when baptized and in the church they have not present right to other ordinances of the church , for you admit not your infant members to the Supper : but if he say they are not visibly in the church of Christ before baptism , but out of it , as indeed they are , then either he must say they are in the visible Kingdome of the devil , which is false doctrine with himself to say of believers infants , or else say they are in some third or middle state , to the unsaying of what he said before by way of denial of such a third state , which let him say , and we will agree with him , and such a third state there is , which all infants are in as well as some , whether he will deny himself so as to acknowledge it yea , or no. His 22. plain Scripture-less proof for infant Church-membership and baptism is this viz. That doctrine which leaveth us no sound grounded hope of the justification or salvation of any dying infant in the world , is certainly false doctrine , but that doctrine which denieth any infants to be members of the visible Church doth leave us no &c. This argument I have spoken to sufficiently above , and thereupon might well passe it by here , and refer Mr. Ba. thither for an answer , where in answer to the Ashford Disputants , that urge the same argument , enough to satisfie is returned ; But finding this to be that which of all things most gravels Mr. Baxter and makes him stick so stiffly to his plea for the baptism , and Church-membership of infants , because unlesse that be owned he can find no good ground in all the word whereupon to hope or believe that any dying infant in all the world can be saved , which if he could find , he would find the vanity of his venting so much concerning a necessity of baptizing , and inchurching infants , and save himself a deal of puzzling himself about that , which the New Testament hath not one word of , and fearing lest I should be judged cowardly to slide by it , as if I saw Mr. Ba. handled it more unanswerably then any other , and partly because Mr. Ts. suspension of his judgement concerning the future state of any infants is puft at by him , and uneffectual to his satisfaction , unlesse he could assure him of the salvation of some dying infants , at least of believing parents , which if he could assure him of out of the way of their church-membership and baptism , it should satisfie him sufficiently , I perceive , to censure all other infants to hell , and to say all those millions of poor innocents , I mean the dying infants of other men , in respect of which these he is so pittiful to are scarce one of a 100. are all damned for ever , with which harsh , cruel , bloody and mercilesse censure of his I am much more , and more groundedly dissatisfied , then he is about the denial of meer outward membership , and bare ordinance of baptism to those few , on whose behalf he pleads them , and lastly hoping the Lord may lend him some ligh● whereby to see a consistency between the non membership and baptism of believers infants , and the salvation of the dying infants of , not believers onely , but all dying innocent infants in the world , I shall enter on an examination of what he saies to the contrary , and an explication of what apprehension in this particular I am begotten to by the word of truth , and though I shall decline sacerdotale delirium that common stock of divinity , which the Clergy have treasured up in their Theological Systems , out of which ocean of error , and dead sea of tradition the younger Rabbies use to draw into their common place books , and store themselves with arguments against Anabaptistical heresie , i. e. this troublesome truth , yet I trust I shall give a good account before all the world at the Tribunal of Christ Jesus . In order hereunto therefore I first flatly deny the Minor of Mr. Bas. above cited syllogism , which by another Syllogism he proves viz. They that are not so much as seemingly or visibly in a state of salvation , of them so dying we can have no ground of Christian hope that they shall be saved . But they that are not so much as seemingly or visibly of the Church , are not so much as seemingly or visibly in a state of salvation , therefore of them so dying we can have no true ground of hope that they shall be saved . The Major of this second syllogism , which he sets himself to prove , I freely grant to be true . The Minor I have many things to say to ; First , I take notice how he changes the termes from what they were in this pro-syllogism , which , had he been minded to deal fairly , and not to sophisticate and shuffle , I know not why he should do , and a sincere disputant whould not have done it . In the Minor of the former syllogism the terms were thus viz. that doctrine that denieth infants to be members of the visible church , but here he writes , leaving out the word visible , foisting in the word seemingly and visibly to fill up the room of it , that it might not be mist , they that are not seemingly or visibly of the Church , whereas he ought of right to have brought in the Minor , and conclusion thus viz. but they that are not members of the visible Church , are not so much as seemingly or visibly in a state of salvation , therefore of them viz. them that are not members of the visible Church , we can have no true ground of Christian hope that they can be saved , I say he should have exprest it visible Church in both places , else the word Church being understood by Mr. Ba , for the invisible Church sometimes , i , e. them that are not onely seemingly sincere , and in state of salvation , but as really and truly in state of salvation as they seem , by this variation of his from visible Church to Church without the term visible the state of the question may be changed : and howbeit he premises this and takes it for granted that to be a visible member of the church , and to be a member of the visible Church is all one , saying he that denies that will shew but his vanity , yet he takes it before it is granted him from me , who am one of those vain ones , that by his favour deny these to be all one , unlesse by the word Church in both places he means the visible Church , which though I do not say he doth not , yet I say if he do , he should by right have exprest it , or else there may be fallacy in it , for I aver to Mr. Ba. and albeit I seem to him to speak paradoxes , and parables thorow the distance of our principles , yet I hope to make it clear to his conscience , that the visible Church doth not so contain the invisible in it , as he saies it doth p. 75. but that there are cases wherein persons may be both real and visible i. e. to us seeming members of the invisible Church , or mistical body of sincere ones , and in state of salvation , and yet not be real members of the visible Church ; or else ( not to speak now of the state of believers infants , whom you rantize , before you rantize them ) let him tell me what visible state believers themselves , whom onely , and not their infants Acts 2.41.42 . the first Gospel ministry bap●ized , were in immediately before they baptized them ? they were not visibly members , after profession of their faith , of the visible Kingdom of the devil , and therefore at least visible and seeming members of Christs mistical body , and of the invisible Church , and in state of salvation , and yet were they not members visibly of the visible Church of Christ till ( though I hold not baptism it self neither to be the immediate formal entrance into the visible Church , yet necessarily previous to it ) till I say they were ( to use Mr. Bas. own phrase by baptism admitted , and stated in it : for to be admitted to be a member of the visible Church , and yet to be a member of that visible Church before that admittance are utterly inconsistent each with other , yea to enter in by baptism , and yet to be in before baptism , beside the contradiction that is in one of these to the other , it makes your baptism , which you call the sacrament of visible entrance , to be what you say the supper is , i. e. a sacrament rather of continuance : to be seemingly therefore and visibly a member , or to be a visible member of the church , unlesse we mean the visible Church , ( and then it ought to be so exprest by them that hold there is an invisible ) and to be a member of the visible Church are not all one : thus having first justly faulted the Minor for its fallacious faultring in the terms , and form of it , and varying from those of the first syllogisme and setting down the syllogisme in the plain termes in which Mr. Baxter should have done it , viz. They that are not so much as seemingly or visibly in the state of salvation , of them so dying we can have no true ground of Christian hope that they shall be saved . But they that are not members of the visible Church , are not so much as seemingly or visibly in a state of salvation , therefore of them that are not members of the visible Church , so dying we can have no true ground of Christian hope that they shall be saved . In the second place I fault the Minor of this argument as most false and unsound in the matter of it , and therefore I lay down this for truth , which is directly opposite to it viz. that they that are not members of the visible Church may be seemingly and visibly in a state of salvation , and so consequently that of them that are not members of the visible Church so dying , we may have true ground of Christian hope that they shall be saved . These two positions with the consequence thereof are so contradictory each to other , that if this latter be truth then the former universally understood i. e. of all that are not of the visible Church , as it must be , or else it serves not Mr. Ba s purpose , must needs be false : whereupon I need do no more toward the disproof of his then to prove my own , in order to which I shall premise what the visible Church is , and then examine whether it be not possible for some persons as Mr. Ba. it seems thinks it is not , to be seemingly and visibly in a state of salvation , and yet not be members of the visible Church . The true visible Church now in the times of the Gospel , and so onely it concerns our purpose to consider of it , is all those severall particular visible assemblies , and societies of persons in the world , or visible disciples collectively taken , which in all places and ages since Christ past , present and to come , being first separated , or called out of the world to personall prosession of repentance from dead works , and faith towards God , of remission of sins by Christ Iesus , of resurrection of the dead , and the eternall judgement , and baptized in water in the name of Christ for remission of sins , and together with imposition of hands , prayed for , that they may receive the holy spirit of promise , do afterward continue stedfastly in the doctrine of the Apostles , and in fellowship , and in breaking of bread and prayers : all the true universall visible Church that I know of , if you will needs have an universal visible is that which doth exist in these particular visible societies , and is neither narrower nor wider then these particulars . Such was the visible Gospel Church in the primitive times , and the same and no other then that which was the visible Church then is the visible Church now , and in all times of the Gospell , wherein it is at all : the visible Church was that which did consist and was made up of all the particular Churches that then were viz. Rome , Corinth , and all the rest , which were societies and assemblies of persons thus called , gathered and built up an house unto God , upon the foundation of the first principles of the doctrine of Christ , as the six above named are called Heb. 6.1 . as they are also called Eph. 2.20 . the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles i. e. that form of doctrine as t is called Rom. 6.17 . which every beginner in Christ did own and obey , and which obeying he was fit matter for the visible church , and was after by mutual consent of the party offering himself , and their suffering him to join with them Acts 10.26 . formally added , actually admitted to visible fellowship with them in breaking of bread and prayers , for that with freedome on both sides such persons as had thus far been taught , and had learned these principles , this a b c , and owned it i. e. professing to believe what of it was matter of faith , and visibly practising what of it was practical , were visible disciples , new born babes Heb. 5.13 . and such babes being baptized , and , having laid this foundation as to fellowship , were then accepted thereunto that they might grow up to perfection , in order whereunto unto this visible church Ephes. 3.21 . which though it exists in many several particular bodies , each of which is independent on any other head then Christ , and impowered from him to determine all its own affaires ultimately within it self , yet since it endeavours to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace , is said to be but one body , because of one spirit , one call , one hope , one Lord , one faith , one baptism , one God and father of them all , who is above all and through all , and in them all , God hath given officers gifted for its service , viz. some Apostles , some Prophets , some Pastors and teachers , for the perfecting of the Saints , for the work of the Ministery , for the edifying of this visible body of Christ , till we all come to a perfect man , to the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of Christ Eph. 4.3.4.5.6.11.12.13 . As for that Catholique visible church , I mean that voluminous body or part of the world commonly called Christ'ndome , which was once all as it were of one language and one speech , and is now rather three in one or a Triune treader of the truth viz. Papall , Prelaticall , Presbyterial , yet to this day exists in those particular visibles as were never thus seperated , and called , and constituted upon the foundation of the doctrine of the Apostles , but conglomerated by the lump by the Apostle Peters supposed successor into Nationall , Provinciall , Parochiall , ( to call a spade a spade ) I can call it no other then the CCCatholique Beast , that bears now in three parts a BBBabilonish CCClergy Rev. 16.19 . i. e. indeed the very CCCatholique whore Rev. 17. As for particular persons , though professing to be believers that yet are not baptized , and added to some such particular visible society or church , but are yet abiding in the capacity only of single though visible Saints , till they are both baptizd and added as members to walk in fellowship with some particular assembly , and congregation in breaking bread and prayers , as every such a one as supposes himself to be a saint ought to be , or else his saintship may be much suspected if he will not , they are no visible members of the visible church but onely fitter materials then they were before their faith , and in a neerer right to be both baptized and admitted to be members , then when they had none : they are better matter for the visible church , but not yet formally of the visible church , have jus ad rem , not in re , ad ecclesiam , not in Ecclesia a right to the church , but not actual standing in it till entered and admitted . Nor yet are they immediate matter for , or in immediate right to membership , though believing , till baptized , but materia remota , and in jure quodam conditionali , & remoto , a certain remote matter , though neerer then when meerly men , and in a conditional and remote right . For as believers are the immediate matter for , or in immediate right to baptism , so baptized believers after laying on of hands in prayer are the immediate subject , i. e. in immediate right to be admitted , yet neither are baptized believers actuall members till admitted , the formality and most immediate entrance , and way of becoming a visible member of a particular visible Church , and so consequently of the generall visible ( if I may so call it ) which hath its existence in all the particular churches , which are the immediate matter , of which that is made up , being not simply the act of baptism , but the act of joining our selves after it Act 9.26 . and the constitutive form of a visible Church is not their being all baptized , but their free falling into fellowship with each other , and though we are said to be all baptized into one body , t is an expression of the necessity only of every ones being baptized in order to a being in the visible Church , for none hath right to be of the visible body unbaptized , but though the baptized have immediate right to be of the body , yet are they not meerly of it because baptized , till added to it , and as one cannot be said to be actually under baptism , from an immediate right to it by faith , till he have submitted , so neither can we be said to be actually in the body from our immediate right to it by baptism , till we are admitted . Self condemned sinners have a right to believe in Christ , believers a right to baptism , baptized believers a right to the spirit of promise , & to have hands laid on with prayer , that they may receive it according to the promise Asts 2. Acts 8. Acts 19. such as these to fellowship in the visible Church , yet not in fellowship till , assaying to join themselves , they are accepted , and yet in a visible state of salvation too both before baptized , as the thief , and after baptized before added to the Church visible , as the Eunuch , who both were seemingly members of the invisible Church , and yet then when converted and baptizd , neither one not the other as yet actual members of the visible : stones though never so unhewn and ragged are remote matter , hewn and polished stones immediate and fit matter for a building , yet not a building , till built together ; many sheep are fit matter to make a flock , yet not formally a flock till they come neer together . Christs visible church is Christs flock , Gods house , Temple , building , several sheep , and single disciples , that hear his voice , believe in him , and are baptized into his name for remission of sins , are pecious materials , and in potentiâ proximâ thereunto , yet be they never so many of them , not visibly , actually , nor formally a flock , an house , a Temple , a Building , his visible Church longer then imbodyed into fellowships , nor till fitly framed together they are builded an habitation of God through the spirit , Ephes. 2.20.21.22 . any more then many sheep that never came neer each other , are a flock , and a multitude of fitted and squared stones , lying a long way a sunder each from other make a building . Mr. B. shall be no Champion of my choosing to mannage the matter against the non-churchers of these times , for all he flourishes his sword so against them at the end of his book , if he plead the cause of them so , that sit down satisfyed in single fellowship between God and themselves onely , living up with him in the spirit , contenting themselves to believe onely , and renouncing all ordinances , forsaking the assembling of themselves together , and all fellowship in breaking of bread and prayers ; if he grant the denomination of the true visible Church to such as these , as well as to those that continue stedfast in the Apostles doctrine , and in fellowship in breaking bread and prayers : yet Mr. B. does not yet agree with me in this that the particular assemblies collectively taken are the only visible Church , for indeed he is aware that it overturns all his visibilities from the bottom , and layes this foundation of no salvation for infants without the visible Church , on which he frames his present Argument , flat on the ground , to allow the bounds of the visible Church to be no broader then all the particular visible societies that are actually baptized , and in formal fellowship in breaking bread and prayers , so as to say he is no member of the visible Church , that is not actually entred , and solemnly stated in some particular congregation or other ; therefore being politick , he premises this among the rest . 3. You must understand , saith he ( but a man may understand a little better if he will ) that to be a member of the visible Church is not to be a Member of any particular , or politick body or society . Nay more to make his own matter good , and that he may find out a way of his own , whereby to hope well of all the infants of believers before baptism , that they may be saved ( for let all other dying infants damn for him , he cares not for harbouring any hope of them ) and finding no way but one , whereby to help himself to any hope of those , i. e. by feigning them to be of the visible church , he fetches the visible church so far , that he makes it larger then the number of visible baptized ones , and holds all believers infants to be in the visible Church from the womb , and though in the last page but two of his book he disputes against twice entring into the visible body ; he feigns them to enter first into the visible church , when they first enter into the world , besides and before their second first entrance into the visible Church by baptism : I wonder whether he hold those believers infants to be of the visible Church or no , that were once alive yet dy again in the womb ? But for all these flim-flames , Mr. Ba. will once know I hope that the true visible church is no other , then all those particular politicall assemblies , in which baptized believers hold fellowship together , and that to be a member of the visible church is to be a member of some political society ( or else how can such be ruld , admonisht , complained on to the church as Mat. 18. and excommunicated , if need be , in case of obstinacy , if under no Ecclesiasticall Government ? ) and yet to hope well of the salvation of all infants that dy in infancy too without either baptism or visible membership in those visible societies . And if he will not agree with me about it , that the visible church is all the visible assemblies of Christians onely , will he agree with Dr. Featley , who defines the true visible church to be where the word is truly taught , and the sacraments duly administred ? where therefore neither word is taught , nor sacraments at all administred , as to unbaptized infants I judge they are not , nor baptized infants neither , there 's no visible church ; Again , the universal visible church , that is saith he , all the assemblies of Christians in the world , the visible church and all the assemblies are adaequate with him , at least therefore unbaptized infants cannot be of it , for they were never entred into the assemblies ; but if Mr. Ba. will agree with neither of us , we shall perswade him I hope to agree in this with Mr. Ba. for howbeit Mr. Ba. will needs reckon upon the very unbaptized infants of believers as not in right to the visible church onely , but of it , in it , visible members of it as as soon as born ( for let him study his own book , how oft does he beat upon that , saying , there is but two states for them to be in , or members of the visible kingdome of the devil , or the visible church of Christ , but believers infants before baptism are not in the first , therefore in the visible church of Christ ? ) though I say he speak of them as in the visible church before baptism , as not knowing else how to hope their salvation , if they dy without it , yet if any man living do deny infants , or any other to be of or in the visible church before or without baptism , Mr. Ba. denies it , with whom how often is it exprest that baptism is the first visible entrance into it ? Yea ( to say nothing of his own definition of the visible church , p. 75. to be such as were baptized and continued together in fellowship in breaking bread and prayers , which ought to conclude the whole church so defined unlesse he have defined it by the halves ) in his plea for the continuance of baptism against the seekers p. 342.343 . he saies so , and saies moreover that we must not admit any to be of the body without it , that it is the appointed ordinary way of ingrafting all into the body that are ingrafted , and p. 24.25 . he saies baptism still is to be at and not after persons are stated in the Church , at and not after our admission , at and not after our igraf●ing and entrance into the visible Church , making baptism and our first being in or of the visible church so simultaneous , that we may not , must not be supposed to be in , to be of , to be visibly members of the visible church before baptism , which if it be true , as indeed it is , that none can be counted to the body , as one of it , though in never such right to it first , before baptism ordinarily , at least as he pleads , how doth all this hang together , and agree with what he pleads here and in the foregoing argument p. 71. where he saith it is not the deniall of baptism directly that leaveth infants in the visible kingdom of the devill ? I would every one , and Mr. Ba. himself would consider this grant of Mr. Ba. for then , what ever necessity there may be of supposing them , as he doth , to be visible members in infancy , and even before they are baptized , we can suppose them in as good a state as he , yet at least there will be no need to baptize them , whereby to put us into more hopes of their salvation if they dy in infancy , for if I can hope the salvation of some believers infants that die without Baptism , upon that account , what ere t is , I may as well hope the salvation of them all dying without Baptism , and so save the frivolous pains of baptizing infants at all , he goes on thus , t is true saith he , that many unbaptized are in the Kingdome of Christ , meaning his visible church , but no man who is known to be out of Christs visible church ordinarily can be out of Satans visible kingdome : I say how do these things square ? hear what he saies , no entring into or being in the visible Church , but by baptism , and yet many unbaptized are in the visible Church viz. all believers infants ▪ before baptism viz. from the womb . Either Mr. Ba. must hold two first entrances into the visible church viz. natural birth and baptism , or else he must hold that baptism is not the first entrance , or else that believers infants are not entred , and if not so , not in the visible church before baptism , whether they have right to be so or no , which is another question ; if he chuse to say the first , then he contradicts what he saies of entring the visible Church p. 343. if the 2d . he contradicts all he saies of baptism being the onely entrance ; if the 3d. that believers infants are not entred , and so not in nor visibly of the visible church before baptism , then of these two things he must say one viz. either that all the infants of believers that dy before their visible entrance into the visible church by baptism are damned without hope , which he neither will nor can say , or else say that there is hope of dying infants salvation , and that they may be seemingly and visibly in a state of saluation , and yet not be visible members of the visible church , and then what need any further witnesse or disproof ? for hee l confute the Minor out of his own mouth , which I am to disprove , and save me the labour . For if they may be in a visible state of salvation and yet not be visibly in the visible church ; then t is so , and there 's an end . If to all this he saies that he meanes not more , but that believers infants before baptism have right to be baptized , and to be of it , and to deny them that right to it denies them salvation , I deny that infants dying without right to be of the visible Gospel church denies them to be in state of salvation , and shall shew the contrary , neverthelesse Mr. Ba. might have spoken more properly , and plainly , then to call a right to visible membership by the name of visible membership it self , as he often , yea all along does , therefore we might wish him to mend his Minor before we meddle with it , and also he must confesse to the contradiction of himself , that there is a third state betwen the visible church of Christ , and the visible kingdom of the devil , in which infants must be supposed to be by himself viz. a right to the church , but not a present standing in it , which kind of right and middle state I acknowledge ●● baptized believers to have , but as for infants , though they are in a present visible state of , and right to salvation as well as they , unlesse living longer they reject Gods grace afresh which dying infants cannot do , and so not in the visible Kingdome of the devil , yet are they neither in , nor yet in immediate right to the visible Church as men and women of years not yet baptized and yet believing are , but in medio abnegationis together with them , these things premised , I come now to the disproof of his Minor , in which I le take him in a fairer sense for himself then he expresses himself in , and yet make no question but to disprove it , in contradistinction unto which I lay down my self thus ; Viz. That not only some men may be de facto no members , but all infants de jure in no right to membership in the visible Church of Christ under the Gospell , and yet both be possibly in state of salvation . Now how far forth de facto persons may be out of an actual standing in the visible church , and yet in a visible state of salvation , I le not meddle much to examine , because the question is ( though Mr. B. does not so fairly expresse it , but I take it in the way that is most to his advantage ) whether denyal of the jus this imediate right to membership excludes them not from salvation ? yet thus much I shall say to that viz. if persons must be seemingly , and visibly in state of salvation , before they are to be admitted members , they may be as yet no members of the visible church de facto , and yet in a visible state of salvation . This is evident not only by the singular case of the theif , who never was actually admitted into the visible Church , nor so much as baptized at all for want of opportunity , and yet in a visible state of salvation , but also if we instance in all others that ever we read were baptized in the primitive times , who were first seemingly and visibly in a state of repentance , faith and disposition to obey Christ in all things , and therefore in a visible state of salvation Heb. 5.9 . and then after this added to the church M●t. 3. Mark. 16.16 . Act. 2. Act. 8. Act. 16. Act. 18. for a certain remote , and conditional right all persons have ; thus de facto : and now de jure that the denyal of persons present and immediate right to membership in the visible church doth not deny them universally to be in a visible state of salvation is evident also thus , viz. If some persons both men and infants may appear to us to be in state of salvation , and yet not in immediate present right to be joined to the visible Church , then the denyal of persons present and immediate right to membership in the visible Church does not universally deny them to be in a visible state of salvation . But some persons , yea both men and infants , may appear to us to be in a state of salvation , and yet at the same time not be in so much as immediate and present right to be joined to the visible Church . Therefore . The first proposition is most clear , the second I shall make as cleer . First , briefly concerning men , Secondly , More largely concerning infants , because the question mainly is of them . Concerning men I instance in all the believers in the primitive times , of whom comparing Scripture with Scripture Act. 2. Act. 8. Act. 19. Heb. 6.1.2 . it s most evident they had not an absolute immediate right to visible fellowship in the visible church , though converted to faith and repentance by the word , and so in a visible state of salvation , as the thief upon the crosse , so far as with him visibly repenting & believing , till such time as they were admitted after baptism , and ●aying on of hands with prayer , and of single disciples , as they were before , they were added , and admitted in to the visible body , till of single living pretious stones , as they were before by their precious faith , they were built up visibly into a house , the whole building the whole body was fitly framed together , fitly joined together , as well as shaped before , therefore they that were not actually added and joined were not of the body Ephe. 2.21 . the 4.16 . if the whole were compacted by joints , and bands , then all the parts were actually added and joined , and those , that were not joined , were no part of the whole so Col. 2.19 . knit together . Mr. Bax. argues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or the Cart before the horse , they must be first supposed to be visibly members in the visible Church , before to be visibly in a state of salvation , but it is undeniably apparent they must have visible right to salvation , and that by faith too , before visible right to membership in the visible church . Mr. Bax. supposes persons must be first supposed to be members of the visible Church a priori before they can be warrantably supposed to be of the invisible , i. e. to be such as shall be saved , for if a person be of the invisible Church he must be thought to be of the visible much more , for the visible containes the invisible in it saith he p. 72. and ordinarily we may not judge any to be of the invisible Church , he means in real state of salvation , who are not , meaning first , of the visible p. 72. But now I say and suppose the clean contrary viz. that persons must be first supposed to be of the invisible Church a priori before they can be warrantably supposed to be of , yea or so much as to have right to be of the visible ; who backs Mr. Ba. in his sinister supposition I weigh not , let him chuse his second if he will , I le chuse Mr. Bax. himself to back me , and to be witnesse to the truth of mine , whose words are altogether the same with mine p 73. viz. if we were fully certain by his own externall discourses that any man were not of the invisible Church , that man should not be taken to be of the visible . In order of time therefore persons were to seem to be members of the invisible church , and were visibly in a state of salvation first before they could have any right at all so much as to be baptized , which with Mr. Ba. himself was the first entrance into membership in the visible church , but with me is not so much as an immediate entrance into it , but that which is necessarily to go before it , therefore persons may be seemingly in a state of salvation , and not yet in present right to membership in the visible Church , much lesse actually and visibly in it . And now concerning infants , of whom Mr. Ba. asserts that they must be members of the visible Church , or else cannot be seemingly or visibly in a state of salvation , upon such slender grounds as these , he concludes it to be clear viz. First , because it is the body that Christ is the Saviour of , and his people that he redeemeth from their sins , and his sheep to whom he gives eternal life , and those that sleep in Iesus that God will bring with him , and the dead in Christ that shall rise to salvation , and those that die in the Lord that rest from their labours and the Church that Christ will present pure and unspotted , all which places I appeal to Mr. Bas. conscience whether they speak not of the misticall body , and invisible church of Christ , to which all and onely they square , and are adaequate , and not to the visible Church , which he was to speak to , or else speaks nothing to the purpose , to all which visible church , and to onely which these things agree not , for neither all those , that are of the visible church are saved , nor onely those of the visible Church saved , witnesse many infants of believers whom Mr. Ba. dares not say are damned , some never living to enter the visible Church so farre as to baptism , and some , once alive , coming dead out of the womb , which he is blind that ever saw to be in the visible church , so that he sits here beside the saddle . Secondly , and Thirdly , because there is no divine revelation for the salvation of any without the visible Church , that yields good ground of Christian faith , or hope that any such shall be saved , as notwithstanding he saies there is not , yet I shall shew there is by and by . Fourthly , because it is said Acts the 2.47 . that God added to the visible church dayly such as should be saved , which though he did , yet t was not all nor onely such , but onely such men and women , not such infants , as should be saved . Concerning infants in proof of the proposition above viz. that some infants may be in visible State of salvation , and yet not be in , nor yet in present right to membership in the visible Church , I argue thus downrightly . First , if all infants are in infancy in a visible state of salvation , and no infants are members , or in any right to be members in their infancy of the visible church under the Gospel , then some infants may in infancy be in a visible state of salvation , ●●d yet not be in , nor yet in present right to membership in the visible church ▪ But all infants &c. and no infants &c. Ergo , some infants ut supra . The first proposition is most undeniably clear , the Minor hath two parts , which I shall prove successively one ofter another , and then I have done with this argument of Mr. Ba. I le ptove the last first , and the first last , and here I dare say I might easily muster up scores , if not a century of solid arguments toward the fuller clearing of it , that no babes now , but the new born babes spoken of 1 Pet. 2.2.3.4.5 . i. e. at least in appearance spiritually born babes , such as those 1 Iohn 1. 1 Cor. 3.1 . Heb. 5.13 . are to be baptized , and built upon the foundation i. e. doctrine of Christ and the Apostles , a spiritual house , a holy temple i. e. visible church unto Iesus Christ now in these daies of the Gospel , and that no mans fleshly seed or natural posterity , no not Abrahams own barely on such an account as being his bodily seed , much lesse any believing Gentiles , who hath not more priviledge then his seed I think , but onely the ( at least seeming ) spiritual seed of Abraham i. e. those that are children of God , and Abrahams too by faith in Christ Gal. 3.26.28 . as no infant is , have right to dwell in this family , the babes , the seed of Abraham circumcised in heart , the children of the heavenly promise pointed at , and typed out by the Iews babes , and that circumcised seed of Isaac , and those children of that earthly promise of the old Canaan , these are the true sons of the free woman , the Gospel visible church , before whom the bond woman , and her son i. e. Abrahams meer ●leshly seed , though by Isaac , are cast out , that they may dwell alone in the house , as Hagar and her son were cast out of Abrahams house of old before Isaac and his seed , that they might dwell alone , for look how Ishmael and his seed stood in reference to Isaac and his , that were the children by promise of the earthly Canaan viz. but servants that must not abide the house longer , when the other came in to stand , so Isaac the type , and his seed themselves , in reference to Christ the true Isaac and his seed i. e. believers viz. as servants that must be packing , when he comes in , and not abide in the house together with him see Iohn 8. Galatians 4. ult . But that were to begin the work again , which I have finisht above , where I have given a touch of these things , and but a touch in comparison of what might be said ; And of multiplying Arguments , and making many books there is no end . Therefore I le hint but a few , among which this shall be the first . If the standing upon the root Abraham , i. e. the family or visible Church of God since Christ be by faith in the person onely so standing , and not by faith in the parent , as of old , then infants cannot now stand therein . But so t is , Therefore the other . The consequence is cleared by the consideration of the incapacity of infants to believe , faith being assent to something propounded to us , faith comming by hearing , and hearing by the word Rom. 10. so that who so thinks it possible for infants 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 credere when it is said how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard , is wretchedly inconsiderate . The Minor is evident out of Rom. 11. where it is said the very natural branches of Abrahams body , that did on that account meerly as the fleshly seed of that father of the faithfull stand in the olive tree , the visible Church , before time , yet now could stand no longer on that old account , why ? were they not the seed of Abraham still , that stood without faith in the old visible Church to the very end of it ? yes , but they believed not in their own persons , therefore could not stand in this house , but were cast out of their own olive , their own father Abrahams family , i. e. the visible Church , now Christ came in , because of unbelief , and thou ( saith Paul to the Gentile ) standest , how ? by fleshly descent ? no , that standing is gone from such as come of Abrahams himself , therefore is not to thee , nor to thine , but by faith , i. e. personal , and not parentall . A Second this , If all they that are baptized into one visible body under the Gospell are made in the supper to drink into one spirit , then infants , who cannot drink into one spirit with the body , secundum te may not be baptized into that visible body . But this is true 1 Cor. 12.13 . Therefore that . So Col. 2.19 . All the body is knit together , and by joints , and bands hath nourishment ministred , and increaseth by that which every joint , and member supplieth Eph. 4.16 . But infants are not capable to have Spirituall nourishment Minstired , and to grow in grace , as all the body ought to do at least , and this in the use of the Supper . If you say they are capable of spiritual nourishment , I say as capable I think as of the spiritual birth , for where there 's a birth there 's a growth , but then me thinks they should be as capable of the supper , which is the Sacrament of spirituall nourishment , being capable of that , as being capable of spiritual birth , they are of baptism the outward Sacrament of the same . But Mr. Bax. denies that page 114.115 . among other reasons for this , because though capable to be washed , yet not to eat bread , and drink wine in their first infancy . Oh strange ! they may have it then as they can eat and drink . A third is this , If no infants were baptized and added to the first Gospell visible Church , then surely they had no right so to be , for the Apostles would not do them that wrong as not to add them that had right , But this is true , Therefore that . The Minor is plain out of Acts 2. where to the 120. men and women that without infants continued in fellowship Acts 1. there were added 3000. more in one day , and not one infant among them , but as many onely as gladly received the word , nor more nor lesse ( for else Luke couzens us in his history ) and continued after their baptism in fellowship in breaking bread and prayers , which no infants did , and yet it is well nigh infallible , that those 3000 had some infants belonging to some of them , which would have been added with their parents , if the promise is to you , and to your children and them a far off , even as many as the Lord shall call would bear the sense divines drawes it to . Yea Master Cotton himself conceives that no infants were baptized at that time , and when else either these or any other were , neither I , not any one else ever found , since they began to read Christs Testament with their eyes open . Yea Peter commanded no more to be baptized but the same persons whom he speaks to also to repent , which me thinks he should have done , saying be baptized every one of you , and baptize your children also , if any such thing had been intended , and Christians infants were to have been separated out of the world , and called to be saints , and baptized , as Mr. B. believes they are to be , but not I. For what saies Paul in his Epistle to the Romans , chapter 1. I suppose he wrote not to infants , yet to all the called Saints , to all that be in Rome called to be saints . So in 1 Cor. 14. the 23. If the whole Church come together , and all speak with tongues , and all Prophe-y . So 26. Every one of you hath a Psalm . So 31. Ye may all prophecy one by ons that all may be edifyed . He writes , and so surely he seems to me to do all his Epistles , to the whole church , and speaks to the whole body , yet I cannot conceive that to any infants , who are uncapable to be edifyed and comforted . Yea 1 Cor. 12.25.16 . The Members of the visible body of Christ ought to have the same care one for another , so that if one Member suffer all the Members suffer with it , if one be honoured all rejoice with it . This cannot infants do , Therefore surely are not of this visible body of Christ. Another Argument which Master Baxter himself mentions , and slights , as simply supposing that it excludes infants from salvation , is that of Mr. Tombs viz. That the onely way now appointed by Christ to make visible church Members is by teaching the persons themselves , and that none else must be Members of the visible Church , but those that have learnt as infants have not . This Argument is of great weight , and receives as trifling an answer from Mr. B for saith he , then it will much more follow that they are not , or at least that we may not judge them to be of the invisible Church at all i. e. to be such as so dying shall be saved . The contrary to which , and inconsequence of which I have shewed above and shall shew more by and by . Secondly ( saith he ) If they may argue from Matth. the 28.20 . that none , but those that are taught are true Disciples , and are to be baptized , why may they not as well Argue from Mark the 16. chap. 16. verse , who ever believeth not shall be damned , that all infants are certainly damned ? To which I say first I am one , who argues from Math 28. that none but such as are taught are disciples , and to be baptized , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is teach ye , or make ye disciples by teaching , or cause to learn , then which I testify to Mr. Bs. face that there is no other way , whereby we can make disciples of Christ , persons being properly called disciples of disco 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to learn , and I blush at that bald stuff , wherewith he strives , and streines his wits till he becomes ridiculous , to make the denomination of disciple appear to be due to infants p. 23. as namely , Because they are taken into Christs school and Kingdome , i. e. his visible Church , [ whereas t is before persons are taken into this School that they are disciples therefore not by it ] also because they are not lesse docible then some bruits [ as if some brutes are so docible as to deserve the name of disciples of Christ , therfore much more infants ] because Mothers , Nurses teach them by gesture , action and voice partly , and dishearten , and take them off from vices , and if not at first to know Christ , yet if any of the duty of a rationall creature it is somewhat [ somewhat indeed but nothing to purpose , for as if mothers could take them off from vices in such meer nonage wherein you baptize them , as or if they could learn them any of a natural creatures duty so young as at eight or nine daies old , as if to learn the duty of a rational creature , which many a man learns , but no infants , could denominate disciples of Christ ] because Christ can teach them immediately by his spirit if they can learn nothing of their parents by action , and voice ] [ from which Christ can teach them to denominate believers infants disciples of Christ , before we have any evidence that he does teach them any more then other infants , that must be no disciples , when Christ can teach these as well as those . I cannot conceive the foppery of it it is so great ] because when a Philosopher was hired to teach a man , and his children those were children disciples of that Philosopher [ as if ever any wise man did hire another wise man to teach him and his nine daies old infants ] because infants can so quickly learn to know father and mother and what they mean in their speeches and actions [ as if so quickly as you baptize them , and lastly as if this will be an accurate account for baptizing of infants , and accepted as an answer of Christs commission , who there bids us teach or make persons disciples to plead thus , viz. Lord we could not teach infants , nor make them thy disciples by teaching , yet seeing they could quickly learn to know father and mother , we supposed upon this , and several such like reasons , that the name disciple of Christ was their due , and so that t was our duty to baptize them . ] Moreover Ad hominem , as he saies of the word holy p. 82. So I of the term disciple , whose constant meaning is one that hath learnt as Mat. 11.29 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so Iohn 6.46 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 every one that hath learned , we shall have better defence before the Iudgement seat of Christ for taking the term disciple in that sense as the Scripture uses it in scores of times viz. for persons learnt or taught then they that take it for indocible infants , a sense the Scripture never uses it in at all , but a hundred times otherwise , to say nothing of Iohn 8.31 . Luke 14.26.33 . where Christ saies if we do , what ( I am sure ) infants do not we are , and if we do not what infants cannot do , we cannot be his disciples . Secondly , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is teach them i. e. the Gospel , so none are here bid to be baptized , but the very same individual persons , that are bid also to be taught : first baptizing them , and after teaching them again , whom ? those persons in the Nations whom they have taught onely , and not their infants ; for we may as well say the men that they never taught , as them , since Christ hath in precepto conjoined teaching , or our discipling and baptizing together , and infants cannot by our teaching of them be discipled visibly . The argument in its true form is this viz. What Christ hath conjoined i. e. in his commission for baptizing that man must not separate , i. e. in his practise . But Christ hath conjoined our discipling persons and baptizing them in his commission , for baptizing , as a standing course to the end of the world as Mat. 28.19.20 . shews . Ergo no man must separate these two in his practise . If Dr. Featley were alive to answer this he would happily say t is no Topical , but a Sophistical Syllogism , for when A. R. makes much what the like from Mar. 16.16 . viz. What God hath joined together no man ought to separate , But faith and baptism God hath joined together Acts 8.37 . Ergo faith and baptism none ought to separate . He saies there 's a double falacy in it viz. homonimiae , or ambiguity in the premises i , e. in the termes joined together , for it may be meant saith he , either in precepto , and that no man denyeth , or insube●cto the subject i. e. so as to say that all that are baptized have faith , and none have faith but the baptized , and in this sense it is apparently false saith he , whereupon to prevent Dr. Featleys followers from charging the above syllogism with that fallacy I have exprest in what sense I mean it , viz. in precepto , in which sense the premisses are granted to be true by the Dr. himself , and therefore I know not why they should be denied by Mr. Ba. or any else , and then the con●lu●ion must be true : but saith Dr. Feat . there is a fallacy called ignoratio elenchi in the conclusion i. e. it concludes not the thing in question , but that which is not denied by us , for they that are for baptizing of infants , do not separate faith and baptism , for they baptize children into their fathers faith saith he ; Secondly they believe that infants of believers receive some hidden grace of faith in time of their baptizing , his followers say before baptism p. 3. of their pamphlet ( oh how contrary are they each to other ) therefore are to be baptized ; but Mr. Ba. will say none of all this I hope , for he is against Baptismal regeneration , nor will he charge the syllogism with sophistry I hope , but deny either the Major , or the Minor , either of which if he do , he answers his own grand argument against the seekers p. 341 , where word for word ( saving a term or two put in here for explication ) this very syllogism is his own , or else he will grant both these , and consequently the conclusion to be true , and then why will he dispense baptism to persons i. e. infants , before they so much as seem to believe ? But it may be that which is a good syllogism , when used by himself , will be meer sophism with him too when urged by us : Secondly the reason why we may not argue that all infants are damned from Mark 16.16 . though they believe not , is this viz. because that place speaks of persons at years onely , to whom the Gospel is preached , and not of infants , that are not capable to believe . But then saies Mr. Ba. the same may be answered to the argument from Mat. 28. against infants being disciples , and to be baptized . To whom I reply thus . First , if he saies ( as we of Mark 16.16 . ) of Mat. 28.20 . viz. that go teach all nations baptizing them , is meant of men at years onely , and not of infants , then he grants as much as we desire , and confesses that Christ , in his commission to teach and baptize the nations , does not mean discipling and baptizing infants , but men , and if the commission to baptize extend not to infants , as the subject , then what warrant to baptize them ? Secondly if that place be meant of men onely , and not of infants , then Mr. Ba. was well busied the while , when he brings that very place in the very front of his plain Scripture proofs , for his infant membership and baptism , its ill stumbling at the very threshold . But I shall not multiply , nor improve as Mr. Ba. hath done to the utmost , but give one argument more against infant membership , and so come to the other member viz. If all that can be said in proof of the visible Church-membership of infants may be disproved as weak , and inconsequent utterly to that purpose , then sure there is enough , if one would stand upon it , to be brought against it . But all that is said by Mr. Ba. in his two dozen of arguments , who improves himself to the utmost to say as much as can be said in proof of the visible Church membership of infants , is well nigh already , and will be altogether by and by disproved as weak and inconsequent . Ergo there must needs be enough against it : for contradictoriorum uno negato statuitur , probatur alterum . If all , that can be said on one side to the proof of this that infants ought to be members of the visible Church , will not avail to evince that to be the truth , then that infants ought not to be members of the visible Church of Christ is a thing will prove it self well enough . And so I have done with one member of my proposition , that I may say a little also to the other , which is this viz. Though no infants have right in infancy to be baptized and joined to the visible Church , as I have already proved , yet all infants in their infancy are in a visible state of salvation . Mr. Ba. finds out or rather fancies to himself certain grounds whereupon to hope , that some dying infants are saved viz. some of the dying infants of the faithful , as in opposition to all the dying infants of the wicked , I say some of them , for he dares not say p. 78. that his own grounds yield a certainty , though a probability , of the salvation of all such neither , so doth he narrow up the grace of God to that innocent age of infancy , for all he would seem so merciful as to plead its cause against those cruel conceits which he conceives are conceived of it amongst us , yet he finds no good ground whereupon to hope the salvation of the dying infant of any godly man , but the same on which he conceives them of nececessity to that salvation to have also a right to membership in the visible Church , but such a necessary dependance of them each on other , that suppose one to be no member , at least in no visible right to membership in the visible Church , of that person , so dying , there can be harboured no hope at all of his salvation : but what if I can make it good from one of those very grounds of Mr. Baxters own bringing that there 's a ground to hope the salvation of one such dying infant , as of whom it is most palpably evident , that it was neither actually a member of the visible Church before it died , nor so much as in any visible right to membership in the visible Church if it had lived ? Mr. Ba. will then I hope let go his wretched conceit of a necessity of dying infants membership in order to our having hopes of their salvation . And in order to the making good of this , I instance in the very same child , which himself brings in as his fifth ground page 77. and alludes to , as his example of the contrary viz. the child that David had by Bathsheba , while she was yet the wife Vriah , of whom I testifie the very same that Mr. Bax. does viz. that Davids comforting himself concerning his dead child , because he should go to the child , but the child not return to him , was an evident argument that David was confident that that child of his should not be damned , and yet he could not hope so upon any such account as his childs dying a member of the visible Church , for the child never lived so much as to the 8th day , nor to be circumcised , and thereby entred into the visible Church , for its plain 2 Sam. 12.18 . that it died on the 7th . and if Mr. Ba. say it was a member de jure , though not de facto i. e. in a right to have been a member had it lived , I deny that with as much confidence as the other , for a bastard was not to be admitted into the congregation of the Lord unto the tenth generation , and its evident that that child was a bastard . I conclude therefore contrary to that round Mr. Ba. runs about in like a horse in a mill , making a necessary concatenation between being in visible right to Church-membership , and in a visible state of salvation , proving the one by the other , concluding sometimes , that infants of believers are children of the Gospel promise , & so visibly in a state of salvation , & therfore they must be baptized and in churcht , or else they could not , and others may not , sometimes that infants of believers are in visible right to be admitted into the visible Church , and therefore we may have sound ground to hope their salvation , so dying , as denying their right to membership we could not have , and of other infants we cannot , I conclude I say that there may be sound ground whereon to hope the salvation of some dying infants , that dye without actual membership in the congregation , or visible Church of Christ , and without any right to it also in their infancy had they lived longer . And if we may hope well of some infants that dy without membership , and without right to it also , I know not why we may not hope the like of all , for all Mr. Baxs . impropriating the unlimited and boundlesse grace of God , and ingrossing all hope of the salvation of dying infants , to the dying infants of none but faithful parents , specially considering , besides what grounds more of my own I shall add in proof of it by and by , two more at least of Mr. Baxters own grounds whereon to hope the salvation of believers infants are grounds , whereon to hope the salvation of other dying infants as well as them , the Scriptures he refers to for them speaking , if of infants at all , then of the whole species , of the whole kind of that Stature called infants , and not of infants of one kind more then another . For first whereas his 6th ground for the salvation of believers dying infants , and of being without any fear of their damnation is this viz. because it is said Psal. 127.3.4.5 . children are the heritage of the Lord , and the fruit of the womb his reward &c. if that be spoken of infants at all , as it seems rather to be spoken of children that are grown up , that are the strength of their father and his family , it is surely spoken of all infants as well as some , and he that particularizes that indefinit term of children , and the fruit of the womb , where ever the Scriture speaks hopefully of such , so as to understand it universally to expresse , and sound forth no more then those individualls viz. the seed of believing parents ( and yet thus Mr. B i. muzzles up all such Scriptures , and makes them sound no more then he would have them ) doth little lesse then force the word to his own fancy . Secondly , whereas his 13th ground is from Mat. 18.10 . where he argues thus , If little ones have their angels beholding the face of God in heaven then they shall be saved , for that is a mercy peculiar to the people of God. I argue that if little ones litterally taken ( i. e. if infants be there meant , as he saies , but never shewes , they are ( saving per alios and not per se ) then surely all infants as well as some , for he speaks not there of the little ones of believing parents in special , but of what kind of little ones soever he speaks , he speaks of that kind of little ones in general without exception , whether it be of infants , or of his disciples , and if yet it must needs be understood of infants onely , that they shall be saved , it is understood universally of them , and so much Mr. Ba. might have seen , and would have said had he consulted the 14. verse , but just below where it is thus said of all little ones that are lost , and so of all as well as some , viz. it is not the will of your heavenly father that one of these little ones shall perish . And sith Mr. B. so suches it out below p. 104 105. &c. from Mark 10.14.15 . saying that of such is the kingdome of Heaven must needs be meant , viz. by kingdome of Heaven salvation , which I grant , and by such ( as I le grant also at this time however , sith thence I shall have another Argument ad hominem to give hope by of the salvation of all dying infants ) not such as are like infants , but infants themselves , and that not of those individuals onely that were then brought , which whether they were children of believing parents or no too is more then Mr. B. ere can demonstrate , there being many that came to Christ for healing of themselves or theirs , as t is most evident that these did , of whom not more then one of ten were as they should be , for of 10 leapets clensed where were the nine ? I say not of those individuals onely , but of the very species of infants , yea how oft ore and ore and ore again does he inculcate this upon us in that place , saying , it was the species of infants , the very species , infants in specie , and not those individuals , whom Christ saies the kingdome of heaven , i. e. salvation doth belong to , I appeal to Mr. Bs. own conscience , whether there be not out of his own mouth a strong Argument of hope , if not of assurance from Christ himself that the whole species of infants , so dying , i. e. all infants , and not some onely shall be saved : for the ●pecies of infants expresses not some infants onely but all infants , or infants quâ tales , so that quatenus ipsum evermore including de omni , whatever belongs to infants inspecie i. e. to the kind or to infants as such belongs to all infants , quod convenit homini , purely qua est homo , convenit omni homini and so what ever belongs to any thing , as t is such , belongs also to all that is such . But Mr. B. teaches us the truth in this , that the kingdome of heaven and salvation belongs by Revelation from Christ himself to infants , not in individuo onely , i. e. not to those infants onely that were then brought to Christ , nor any other , but to the kind , to infants in specie i. e. all infants as infants , therefore the kingdome of heaven and salvation belongs to them all , and so did that kind of comming to Christs person , while he was on earth , with infants , not for , nor by baptism , but for healing , belong to all infants that needed it as well as some , that were then on earth , as comming to Christ with infants by prayer to him to help and heal them , in whatever malady , since his person is absent , belongs to all infants in the world , and not to believers infants onely ; and yet not baptism , and a standing in fellowship in the visible Church , for they indeed are not fit for fellowship . Therefore though Mr. Ba. contracts the grace of God to infants , as concerning their everlasting salvation into little a little corner , yea good lord how few dying infants does he hope shal be saved , that hath hope of none but of some i. e. believers infants , which are but one of many , and also not of all , but onely some of them ? yet ( to conclude this in a way of resemblance to Mr. Bs. conclusion of his Argument from Mark 10. p. 107. ) I blesse the Lord Jesus Christ King of the Church , though he gave no order to baptize , and in church infants here on earth yet for having a greater tendernesse towards the eternal state of all dying infants , then Mr. B. is yet aware of , and towards all that live to years such a tendernesse as to invite them to himself universally , and bid them wel-come , and so great a care to inform his Church in his Word and Gospel concerning his good will to all men , and to all infants also in that particular , so as to speak it so plainly , that plain minded men , that are not minded never to change their minds , as I hope Mr. B. is not , may well see his mind in this case , even as if he had therefore done this , because he foresaw that some would arise so carnally , and so cruely conceited , as to suppose it impossible to be , and but in vain to hope it almost , that Gods saving mercy should extend to any more dying infants then those few , and not all those few neither , of their own : and for my part I gladly accept Christs information , and submit to his discovery , let them resist it that dare . And lastly , one more Argument of hope that I have within my self that all dying infants must needs be saved , is this yet , because I could never find since I lookt for it , as also none ever shall that look not without their eyes , what should , nor what ( save the Priesthoods divine kind of Doctrine ) does damn them , I mean any of them so dying , any more then one of them . First as for sin , which onely damnes , I know none they have of their own , and to say that any infant dyes eternally for theiniquity of his father only , makes the word of God , which is truth it self , no better then a flat falsehood to me , who read in Ieremy 31.29.30 . & Ezek. 18.3.4.19.20 . & Deut. 24.16 . & 2 Kings 14.16 . that the waies of God who requires it strictly of man , not to put the children to death for the sins of the father , but every man only for his own sin , are so equal , for all the false accusation of him by the wicked Jewes , that seeing he both saies , and also swears it , that men shall never have occasion to say , the childs teeth are edged by the grapes the father only hath eaten , and in way of complaint for injustice , doth not the son bear the iniquity of the Father ? but that every soul that dies shall dy for his own iniquity onely , and that individual soul onely that sinneth shall dy , i. e. eternally , for temporally t is true we all dy in Adam , as far as a to temporal death , God may , and often doth visit the sins of the Father on the children to the third and fourth generation of such as hate him not onely when children inherit , so as to imitate their fathers hatred of God , in which case only t is a punishment to those children , but also on infants , so as to take them out of the world with the fathers : as in the case of Dathan and Abiram , Amaleck , Hittites , Amorites &c. yea Sodom and Gomorrah , and the old world , on which for ensamples sake to them that in after times should live ungodly , the flood , and the fire fell , not onely temporal but eternal to the adult ones that gave themselves over to fornication and followed strange flesh , though but temporal only to infants , who neither lived ungodly , nor gave themselves over to fornication as the other did , and therefore though passing hence with the rest to a temporal death by that fire , yet are not set forth as an ensample with the rest to all that should live ungodly , by suffering the vengeance of eternal fire 2 Pet. 2.6 . Iude 7. But the same temporal death that may be in fury to one , as t is a passage to worse , may be a mercy to another , and so to those infants a passage from worse to better , as good Iosiah was slain in battell , as well as wicked Ahab , and that for going on his own head to war as well he , yet was it in respect of that eternall state that followed , as well for him , as ill for Ahab . Sith therefore it s said so plainly the son shall not die for the iniquity of the father , and yet temporally they may be taken away with the father , it must needs be meant that eternally none die , nor lye for ever under wrath for no more then meerly the fathers fault , whereupon all dying infants having no trangression of their own , cannot be damned for their own , nor yet for their father Adams transgression , and so are all , as well as those of believers , in a visible state of salvation , and while they live infants , unlesse hereafter they reject it , as Esau did the land of Canaan , in visible right to so dying to the heavenly Canaan . Yea many thanks to my Ashford opposites for that clause of their pamphlet , which is assistant to me almost at all assaies , Christian charity it self , which doth presumere unumquemque bonum , nisi constet de malo , constrains us to hope all things , believe all things concerning the salvation of dying infants , and of all infants as well as some , specially since these , more then those , i. e. the infants of unbelievers more then of believers , have not committed any actual sin , wherby to deserve to be exempted from the general state of little infants declared in Scripture viz. that of such is the Kingdome of heaven . Secondly as for righteousnesse there 's enough in Christ to take away , it being imputed , what ever unrighteousnesse is imputed for Adams sin , and why that righteousnesse should not be imputed , if the Scripture had not said it so plainly as it does Rom. 5. 2 Cor. 5.19.21 . 1 Cor. 15.22 . to all poor dying innocent infants as well as some , I cannot imagine , unlesse you say not God the fathers love to all , but man the fathers faith , is that thing that must save some of those infants of believers , that are savd , by interesting that fruit of his body in the righteousnesse of Christ , as well as himself , for the taking away the sin of his soul , which faith a father wanting , the child shall perish for ever in default out , and yet be in no fault in the world about it : Alas poor infants indeed , that descend from such parents as believe not , if it be so , that that the fathers faith onely does interest the infant in Christ , their forefather , the first Adam by his sin unawares to them damned them say they , and say I , if it did , there 's righteousnesse enough in the heavenly father , and the second Adam to save them , but because not they themselves , for they have no more ability so to do then a new born infant hath to dresse its naked body , but their fathers put it not on by faith for themselves , and theirs , which if the dying infants might live to years , as Christ said of Sodom , they happily would do , therefore millions of these poor innocents must perish : so then belike it is thus , and this is the covenant of the Gospel , the fathers faith saves him , and all his dying infants , and the fathers sin of unbelief damnes for ever not himself onely , but all his dying infants also . All infants that are damned then , are damned through the fault of two unhappy fathers , a remote father for sinning , and and immediate father for not believing , between which two the love of the heavenly father cannot come at them : a wise man may spend all he hath with looking , but never find such as this in all the Scripture : earthly inheritances are oft stated , and removed to and from posterity for fathers faith , and faults , as all Abrahams posterity by Isaac and Iacob did enjoy Canaan , and Esaus lost it , but the eternal inheritance is neither won nor lost by the children , through the faith or unbelief of the parents : and besides if Adams sin , though a remote parent , doth so damnifie all infants , that the righteousnesse of Christ cannot save them , without the fathers faith , me thinks he being their great grand father , Adams faith should recover him and all his , at least from that guilt his sin brought upon them ; by interessing them in Christs righteousnesse , as well as his single unbelief at first destroyed them , if any fathers faith shall entitle his infants to salvation ; or else God seems not to be so prone to mercy as severity , yea indeed he that saies God is not more prone to severity then to mercy , and shewes it no other way , as to his dealing with innocent infants , then by saying he saves no more dying of infants then those few , i. e. some of the dying infants of believers , and from the Mothers womb damns eternally all the rest , may say over that his creed in my hearing 500 times and ten , before I shall learn to believe it after him once . Thirdly , as to threatnings of damnation I find none at all to infants in their ininfancy , from one end of the book of God to the other , but all that ever is spoken as concerning eternal wrath , the second death , everlasting damnation , the Lake of fire , is declared as the portion of those onely that do , and do not that , which was never at all , much lesse in order to salvation , and on pain of eternal fire enjoined by infants either to be done , or forborn : yea this is the condemnation , and nothing else that I know of , that light more or lesse comes to persons , and they love darknesse more then light because their deeds are evil , those that Christ speaks nothing at all to , as he does to heathens themselves Rom. 1. Rom. 2. but not to infants , that yet know not the right hand from the left , much lesse either good or evil , they have not sin , for sin is the transgression of that law , that is lent us to live by , whether a law within onely , or without also Rom. 2. but when he hath spoken and they obey not , when they know God , and glorify him not as God , then they are without excuse , and have no cloak at all for their sin : and the word he hath spoken to every one , being rejected that same word shall judge him at the last day . I find it said no whoremonger , fornicato● &c. no actual impenitent sinner shall ●ver enter , or hath any inheritance at all , but not no unbelievers dying infants in the kingdome of God or of Christ ; and that the Lord shall come in flaming fire taking vengeance on all them that know not God , and obey not the Gospel of Christ &c. and yet on no dying infants , though they neither know him , nor obey him , for if he should then believers infants should therefore to the pot as well as others , as who in infancy obey no more then their fellows ; that the fearful and unbelieving , and dogs , and socerers , and murderers , and all liars &c. but not hars dying infants , shall have their portion in the lake of fire burning with brimstone , which is the second death ; and that the unprofitable servant , that traded not with his talent , and not infants , that in infancy have no talent to trade with , shall be cast into utter darknesse ; that those on whom Christ called , and they would not hear , and to whom he stretched out his hands , and they regarded him not , and would none of Christs councel nor reproof , shall call on him at that day and not be heard , and not infants on whom he never called ; that the Lord added to the Church dayly such men and women Act. 2. not at all such infants , as should be saved ; that he that believeth not the gospel shall be damned , but not infants to whom he never preached ; that it shall be said to the wicked , go ye cursed into into everlasting fire , for I was hungry and you fed me not &c. among which , if there were any that died infants , they might justly reply indeed , as no wicked men at years can do , Lord when saw we thee in distresse , and neglected thee , and did not come and minister unto thee ? In a word the whole body of the new Testament or covenant in the promissory , praeceptory , and minatory parts of it ( saving some two or three such gentle touches about infants , as those above named , whereby we may have hopes that none of them dying such , are for ever lost ) was written and given to , and concerning men and women , and not infants , to declare unto them the way of everlasting salvation , and in what wayes God would and would not accept of them , and he that with an unprejudiced spirit observes all this will trouble himself no more about his infants to in church and baptize them for remission of sins , which is the prime use of baptism to sinners , and utterly lost when di●penst to infants that have not sins , nor indeed to do more then instruct them as they grow up , and pray for them while they live infants , and hope well of them if they dy in their minority : but it pitties my heart for them to see what moyl and toil the Priests create to themselves and the people , and what much ado they make about their poor infants , even much more then about themselves . As for Iacobs being Lovd before he was born ( he means in contradistinction to Esau ) wch is Mr. Bs. tenth ground of hope that believers infants are from the womb in a hopeful way , I suppose he takes it to be so declared , but is miserably mistaken , if he think the ninth of the Romans saies so , for t is true the elder shall serve the younger , which relates to the posterity of those two , and not their persons ( for Esau was mostly Jacobs Lord ) was said before they were born by God , who foreseeing it might easily foretell how it should be and did so too , but for the words Iacob have I loved , Esau have I hated , as they also were spoken of the two Nations , that came out of their loines viz. the Edomites and Israelites , and that not without respect to Edoms being the border of wickednesse , ●o far was it from being spoken of them before they were born , that t was hundreds of years after they were dead and rotten , Mal. 1. But if it were just as Mr. B. understands it , that before they were born , and without any respect to their personal rebellion , and obedience in time it had been said Iacob have I loved , Esau have I hated , would it prove that article in Mr. Bs. creed that God hath promised to be merciful to Godly mens seed in general , in contradistinction to the seed of the wicked ? in no wise , I suppose , since as godly as Isaac was , even one of his Sons was hated from the womb ; if Mr. B. conceit were true , aswel as the other of them from the womb beloved : but surely had not Esau sinned and set so light by the heavenly blessing , he had not lost it , much less if he had dyed from the womb . Fourthly as for the universallity of redemption which is by Jesus Christs dying , as Mr. Ba. saies t●uely , for all , for every man , for the sins of the whole world , which he had meant to have drawn an Argument from , but did not , he might easily have drawn one that would have served my turn in this place , viz. to have proved that very age , even the whole species of infants to be savd by Christ from wrath and ruine , except they live to reject his grace afresh , as in infancy they do not , but it utterly overthrowes his hopes by the halves of infants , for it is both a good ground , and as good a ground , whereon to hope the redemption from wrath to come of every dying infant , as of any one , And lastly to conclude my answer to this 22 Argument of Mr. B. which I have insisted the longer on , in much hope of helping him to a better hope of all dying infants , that neither are , nor are to be added to the visible church , whereas I was once set upon by a Gentleman with this objection , who if ever this book came to his hands , and this passage to his eye , will remember it , though I forbear to name him . Viz. Obj. If we may be assured of the salvation of all our dying infants , we may then in love to them knock them on the head in their infancy , and so be sure to prevent their perishing by condemnation . I intreat that Gentleman to beware of so much as saying , that we may do such gross evil that so great good may come thereof , least his damnation for it be just , and then what little benefit will accrue to him all men may judge , that to save his infant damnes himself . There 's but four Arguments of M.Bs. behind brought in proof of the right of membership to infants whereof two , viz. his 24th and 26th are the one from 1 Cor. 7.14 . the other from Mark. 10.13.14.15 . Two Scriptures that I have talkt on so much in the book above , and given the genuine sense of , that I shall but tautologize to speak particularly to them again , seeing I see nothing new taken notice of in them by Mr B. but what is abundantly answered in effect above , where I have shewed the abrogation in Christ of that birth holinesse he means , and the uncleannesse consequently opposite thereunto , so that there 's no man however born , though a barbarian , can be called , in opposition to others , as by birth holy , by nature a sinner in that ceremonial sense , from Act 10. Gal. 2. yea M.B. confesses p. 81. the Common sense of holinesse was one and the same in all , i. e. Priests and Levites under the Law &c. Temple , Altar , Sacrifices , children of believers , and believing yoak fellowes viz. a separation to God , so then if that holinesse of Priests , Temple , &c. was ceremonial , so this is , and if that holinesse is abolished in all other things , why abiding onely the seed ? I have also proved that the other place , where it is not evident that the infants brought to Christ were ever baptized by his disciples , or any other , doth more deeply disprove infan●s-baptism and membership , then all the places ever brought by Mr. B. are capable to prove or make good either . Yea as good a man might have said , as send me to those two places for infant-baptism , you may find it if you look in the bible . I le say no more therefore to them . His other two viz. the 23th and 25 hare both as he confesses but probable , and and by and by will appear not to be so much ; His first is this . If an Infant were head of the Church then infants may be members . But Christ an infant was head of the Church , Ergo. That cannot be half so much , as a probable Argument , whose premises are neither of them true , yet such is the syllogism here brought by Mr. B. both the propositions of which I deny , his consequence is true indeed , that infants may be members , if an infant were the head , i. e ▪ are capable out , supposing Gods will that it should be so now in the Gospel , which a man may suppose if he will , but shall never find to be so in his word ; nor does his curious crotchet out of Irenaeus , that Christ went through every age to sanctify it unto us , prove the other to be a truth , for there 's no truth at all in it self , yea t is falsum per falsius , for Christ did not passe through every age of man , that he might sanctify that age , for he lived not to any old age here , though now he that was dead is alive again for evermore , for his life was soon cut off from the earth . And as concerning his headship in his infancy , I admire a man of wisedome should assert it , for to say nothing how little this agrees with that above page 62. where he saies t is disputable whether ever Christ was a Churchmember properly or no , ( as if the head , because the principal that rules the rest , were no member at all of the body ) t is evident to me that as man he had not any of his Prerogatives settled actually upon him , till after he had purchased them by his death ; he was perfect first through sufferings Heb. 5.9 . and after his death and resurrection he was made Lord and Christ Acts. 2. And exalted highly above all Phil. 2. and set far above all principality , and given to be head over all things to his Church which is his body Ephe. 1. ult . Moreover to me there is as much force in it , if Christ had been head of the Church in his infancy , and much more then in Mr. Bs. to argue thus , if Christ the head of the Church , that was circumcised in his infancy , yet was not baptized till he came to years , then , though under the Law the circumcised were circumcised in their infancy , yet under the Gospel none are to be baptized till they come to years . His 25th runs thus . If the Scripture frequently , and plainly tell us of the ceasing of circumcision , but never at all of the Churchmembership of infants , then though circumcision be ceased , yet we are not to judge their membership to be ceased . but &c. Therefore . This is so far from a demonstration , that it s not a Topical but Sophistical Syllogism , in which there is fallacia homonomiae , or ambiguity in the middle term viz. the Scripture tells us , which may be taken for an expresse , or for an implicit telling , or having a word for a thing , yet one of his propositions will be false let him understand it how he will , for if by the Scripture telling us , and having a word for it , he means an expresse telling of the cessation of membership in totidem verbis , a Syllabical word given out of that particular by name , then his consequence is false , for it follows not because there is not an expresse particular prohibition in the New Testament for the cessation of things , that were under the old , therefore they are not ceased , for so we shall make most of the types and ceremonies , among which infant membership was one , as I have shewed , to remain in force still as well as that , as the dedication of the first born , and many others , the cessation of which is not so syllabically spoken of . But if he mean an implicit prohibition , or word for the cessation of Churchmembersh●p of infants , which is enough , then there is prohibition enough , yea the very command for the cessation of circumcision of infants any more Act. 21.21 . vertually is a command to cease inchurching of infants , for the very end and intent of circumcision was the inchurching of infants thereby , which thing was formally done then by circumcision , besides circumcision ceasing , the whole law ceased with it , the whole of which he was a debtor to keep that was circumcised , also Heb. 2.12 . t is sayd summarily thus viz. that the priesthood i. e. of that testament being changed , there must be of necessity a change also of the law . And so I have done with all his arguments for the church-membership of infants , which is the second medium , and next to that of discipleship , by which he would prove but cannot , infant baptism . His third medium which he onely names , and handles not , therefore I shall do the like in speaking to it , is drawn from the duty of parents to engage their infants solemnly to God in Covenant , and runs thus viz. if it be the duty of christian parents solemnly to devote their children to God in covenant , then they ought to do it in baptism , but &c. therefore . He proves his Minor from the practise of the old Testament , from the duty of parents then , from which time , as to that particular of dedicating , and solemn engaging of their children , it will not follow to our doing the like in all respects now as they did , for then we must thus dedicate our first born , and that doth of man and beast . His consequence is also false of his Major proposition , for I may devote my children in a gospel sense to God according to my duty , I mean ingage my self to the Lord to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord , and also devote them to him in prayer , i. e. give them up to him as his right , and to him to teach by his word , and his spirit , when they come to years , and sundry other wayes , and yet no necessity of doing any of this in baptism . But I shall make this as short as he does himself , and gather up the sum of what he hath said viz. infants are disciples , visible Church-members , and to be solemnly engaged to God in Covenant as a holy seed &c. therefore are to be baptized , denying now the consequence , as to him , as I did the antecedent before , which I have been all this while in disproving . For , Ad hominem , so long as he argues for baptism to be after the manner of circumcision , the consequence will not follow , if this were as true as t is false , that infants are now disciples , Church-members , and a holy seed , and in covenant , that therefore they must be baptized ; for women under the Covenant whereof circumcision was a sign , were both disciples , and visible Church-members , and a holy people in the sense of the Covenant , and dedicated to God in Covenant as well as males , and yet not then circumcised , and why ? viz. for want of a commission to do it , and the like I say now of infants if they were , as t will never be proved while the world stands , that they are disciples , in right to visible membership , and holy in his sense , and to be ingaged &c. yet of necessity it followes not they must be baptized , unlesse there be some command or commission for it , which no man ever shall find in the word of Christ ; all the rest of his arguments wherein he undertakes to disprove the practise of baptizing naked , and baptizing children of Christians of age , as I have shewed above , are ignoratio elenchi a dispute besides our practise , for we do not so , therefore though I see some grosse absurdity in them all , yet I le meddle no more with them here . Thus I have done with both that subject of rantizing , which partly at the motion of you Ashford disputants I was ingaged in at the end of your Review , and partly by that meer demi-reformation that is made in this point of baptism by a party of men in Lincolnshire , and elsewhere , ( of whom I suppose there are several congregations ) who having long since discovered the true way of baptism , as to the subject , viz. that professing believers onely , and not any infants are to be baptized , but remaining ignorant of the true way and form of administration of that ordinance are fallen into a frivolous way of sprinkling believers , which to do is as much no baptism at all , as to dip infants in no baptism of Christs ordaining : which people , for whose sakes as well as others I write this , will be perswaded I hope in time to be , as to the outward form , not almost onely , but altogether Christians , and rest no longer in that meer midway mongril reformation . I have done also with this book of Mr. Baxs for infant baptism , the weak arguments of which for it were enough , if I had no more ▪ to convince me of the error of it , & to make me doubt of it ▪ & renounce it , even as Mr. Ba. himself saies he had like to have done once , when he saw the weak arguments of others for it , which had he done , he had done no more then what is his duty to do now , and in order to Gods glory though it were as much to his own shame , as it will be rather for his honour , to deny himself , and imbrace the truth as t is in Jesus , I hope he may do yet in due time , if he do not shut his eyes against the Gospel , because I find him saying and uns●ying again what he said before he had well studied it p. 113. and he is out in print for infant baptsm , and against the true baptism , for all his professions of ●o serious search after it , before he had well studied it to the bottom : if he do not recant his error , I am confident some of the people will , that have been deluded by him , and out of love to the Lord Jesus , that loved them as a Priest , and washed them from sin , in his own blood , and as a Prophet , and a King requires them so to do , arise and be baptized , as they ought , washing away their sins calling on the name of the Lord. Thus my friends and you my Ashford Antagonists , you have my mind amongst you in this matter , If any one of you answer , and I have satisfaction from him to the contrary , he shall hear of my recantation , if I have not , he shall see it by my silence , for I le never lose so much time , as I have done by the bare writing of this , from preaching to poor ignorant creatures the free love and rich grace of God in Christ to all that obey him in truth , and as I see I must , if I meddle more at the presse with this subject . ANTI-RANTERISM CHRISTNDOM NEW CHRISTN'D , OR Christs ordinances continuing till Christs second coming In a small system , wherein are some few reasons rendred for the now raising of water baptism into its right way of administration , as to the form and subject , and for the remaining of both it , and other ordinances in their primitive right , till the return of Christ Iesus . FOr as much as I have been several times sollicited by several persons both by word of mouth and otherwise a , to give out unto them the grounds , ends and arguments in writing of my continuance in the practise of water baptism , and other ordinances of Christ , as laying on of hands , prayer , breaking of bread , church fellowship &c. according as the Churches of Christ in the primitive ages of the Gospel did , and for that I find it an easelesse and well nigh an endlesse businesse to write the same things in private letters , about one particular subject , to every of those particular persons , that may successively desire it , I have therefore thought good ( being called to the presse by sundry challenges of the Priesthood , and more specially by not only the publication of that abusive pamphlet concerning the Ashford-disputation for infant-baptism , but also their professed expectation , that I should give some answer , or give the cause ) to inser● here this ensuing account of my own reasons , for the right of our remaining in the use of ordinances till the return of Christ , and animadversions of what little reason the Ranter hath to run from them , and redeem himself from that bondage , which he deems to be in the observation of them , before the time appointed , much more to run beyond the bounds of modesty and all good manners also , as not all , but many , if not most of those do first , or last , who despise any of the ord●nances of the Lord Jesus : and herein as I shall be plain , using no other form , method and order then what the Lord gives into me as I write , so I must be brief , the foregoing part of this volume having risen already unawares to a far greater magnitude then was meant to the whole , when I first cast the bulk of it in my mind , and there remaining also something yet to speak , and I know not well how much , to the Priests concerning themselves , in way of return to the last piece of that pedobaptistical pamphlet which was pu● forth by who knowes ? or rather by who knows not whom ? in order to the plainer disquisition of the truth in this question viz. whether the ordinances of Christ , that were in use of old , are of right to be practised still ? as there are four services , then in use , the necessary use of which is now denied viz. baptism in water , laying on of hands , breaking of bread , and church-fellowship , so I shall addresse my self to prove the practise of these four severally to stand , even de jure till the second coming of Christ , which is yet to come . And because baptism in water , though most strenuously denyed by many to be so much as lawfull to be either dispensed , or submitted to , and by many even of those that have submitted to it to be necessary , or any other then a matter of indifferency , is yet the first in order to be practised , and that without , or before which we are not once to meddle with the other , I therfore propound it as the first in order to be proved , and in order to the proof of at least the lawfulnesse thereof against such as say its sinful ( for this will be included in the other ) I shall by the help of God prove a necessity of it , against such as judge it needlesse or superfluous , and by several Scriptures shew it to be such a service , the present performance of which is so far from being sinful , that it is no lesse then sin and rebellion against Christ himself to leave it unperformed . The Scripture which I shall most directly make use of to this purpose , and lay as the very basis , and foundation of this businesse , and make as a certain cardinal Topick ●lace from whence to argue , and whether to reduce all the rest , which I shall more co●laterally handle , is Mat. 28.18.16.20 . All power is given &c. in which place these things chiefly are observable as subservient to the proof of the point in hand . First , we find Christ pleading that absolute power , which was given him by the father to be the Soveraign Lord , and Supream Lawgiver to the whole world thorowout all nations and generations of it from thenceforth even to the end ; in these words viz. All power is given unto me both in heaven and in earth i. e. I am he to whom this prerogative is granted to give out to all men what laws and rules they shall be guided , and governd by , what wayes they must walk in in order to that eternal salvation , which as a Priest I have purchased them to by my own blood , if ever they mean to attain it , I am that Prophet , a which the Lord hath raised up unto all people now , instead of Moses , who was the faithful giver out of Gods will , mind , or Testament to Israel of old , whose voice all must now hearken to in all things , what ever I say unto them , and whoever harkneth not to me , shall be cut off from among the people : b behold God hath given me for a witnesse to the people , a leader and commander unto the people . Secondly , After he had thus shewed his authority , and commission from God to be the only Lawgiver , whereby to summnon the sons of men to so much the stricter attention to him , he next begins to act according thereunto , to act like him self , to make out his mind to his disciples concerning them and all men most expressely , and plainly about this matter of water baptism , and to give order to them both when , and to whom , both in what time and to what subjects they should dispense it , and likewise both how , and for how long he would have the nations ( as by command from himself , commissionating his disciples so to teach them ) to practise the same dispensation of water baptism ; in the two following verses . Going out therefore teach all nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father , Son and holy spirit , teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you , and ●o I am with you alwaies even to the end of the world . Where note first in general three things . First , That he gives order to his disciples to teach the nations , and baptize them in water in his name ver . 19. going out teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father , son and holy spirit . Secondly , that whatever order is given out by Christ to his disciples , concerning this businesse of water baptism , as to the order of its administration , and the term of its continuance , the very same and no other doth Christen join his disciples to give out to the disciples , ●hat should be successively in all nations , to be observed as his will concerning them v. 20. teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you . Thirdly , that what ever he gives out as his will concerning both them and the disciples in the nations that they should make , he gives out as his standing will and Testament to them , and their standing duty to him in all ages of the world as well as that , even to the very end thereof , in these words v. 20. and lo I am with you alwaies i. e. in the observation of these things I command you , to the end of the world . Secondly more particularly yet , let it be observed what Arguments in particular do most naturaly arise hence in proof of the continuance of water baptism by comcommand from Christ to this very day , and that from several clauses and passages of this Scripture severally considered . First from these words Go ye out therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the name &c. it is very evident to the utter confutation not onely of those who are for infant baptism , as is shewed above , but also of those that are now for no water baptism at all , that our lord Christ expressely enjoines these two things , viz 1. That all those whom his disciples presume to baptize in his name shall be first taught by them or made disciples , i. e. preached to or instructed in the Gospel till they learn and believe it . * 2. That all those whom his disciples do teach till they have learnt the Gospell , or by preaching to them have converted to faith in his name shall in his name like wise be baptized , so inseperable hath Christ made these two viz. discipling and baptizing , believing and baptizing in his will and Testament to us , that as he would have no creature in the nations be baptized without precedent teaching and believing , so he would have no creature that is instructed till he believes to go unbaptized ; whereupon in one and the same word of command he requires both , neither can any one abstract either from the other ( without such violation to the will and Testament of Christ , confirmd by his blood , which wo be to that man , or angel that disanulleth in the least particular ) so as to take upon him to give a toleration to persons either to be baptized before believing , or to content themselves with belief only without baptism . But first as expresse as t is the mind of Christ that one of these should be done so expresse it is that the other should be done , and each in its proper order . Secondly , as clear as it is that these are commanded to be done by the very persons he then spake to viz that they should teach and baptize , so clear it is that the very same is commanded to be done in all nations , and among all people by such persons as should be discipled by them in these words v. ●0 . Teaching them to observe all things , whatsoever I have commanded you . Thirdly , and as long as t was his mind the one should be used viz. teaching and believing , so long t was his mind that the other should continue , viz. baptizing and being baptized , and that was that they should all abide in force to the very end of the world . Whence more formally we may argue thus , viz. What Christ hath conjoined man must not seperate . But Christ hath conjoined our discipling of persons , and baptizing them , as a standing course to the end of the world , as Matth. 28.18 , 19 , 20. plainly shews , Ergo man must not seperate these two . In this very manner and form of words , word for word ( little heeding how while he declines the gulf of no-baptism , he runs against the rock , and makes shipwrack of his infant baptism by the shift , and at once breaks the neck of all his Arguments for it ) doth Mr. Baxter argue against these new No-baptists in p. 341. of his Plain Scripture-lesse proofs for infants Church-membership and baptism : whereby verily as he wounds both himself to death , and all those that together with him do plead for the baptizing of such subjects , as they never teach viz. infants whom themselves must needs acknowledge to be uncapable of conversion by their instruction , so all those likewise that plead for the teaching of all nations still , and preaching of the Gosel to every creature , and yet plead against any more baptizing of them in water , who are converted to the faith by preaching ; who tear the Testament of the Lord Christ to pieces , and take what of it will serve their own easie turnes , and reject what of it is more tedious to the flesh , as the way of outward ordinances is , specially that ordinance of water baptism , as a businesse long since abolished and out of date , as being ended almost as soon as instituted , as bondage , as meer bodily exercise , that profiteth little or nothing , as but indifferent at most , and so may be done , and yet as well be let alone , as a low weak thing , as a foolish matter to make such ado about , as needlesse for every one to submit to or make use of , as that which some can live as well without as with &c. as if Christ Jesus was a fool ( for so all those do say in figures , though not in words at length ) to invent such foolish instruments , to appoint such simple tooles to be used in his house , such earthen vessels , such vessels as are not honourable enough , nor fit in their conceit for the masters use , or for any thing but to be thrown aside , as out of date , and not worthy to be now meddled with any more : to which high Notionists , who camaelion like live up aloft , and yet feed on nothing but the meer air of their own high flown fancies , I must needs say thus much here , before I come to the other argument viz. that as wise and strong as they reckon upon themselves to be , so that they can live to God and thrive toward salvation as well without baptism , or any other ordinance as those that use it , and as poor pieces of business as they deem these to be , and unworthy of their condescension to them , as smal , despised , homely and earthen as they are in their eyes , d yet they are of such precious and heavenly consequence as may well challenge a right of continuance to the end , yea they are no lesse then the power of God e to salvation to every one that believeth , the wisdom of God in a mystery ; f yea this foolish thing of God is wiser then man , and this weak thing of God is stronger then man i. e. then all the gawdy formes , and new wayes of mans tradition , whereby the Rantizer , or those non-entities , and new-nowayes of mans invention , whereby the Ranter hath made void the commands of King Jesus , and howbeit they count it their spirituallity , yet I cannot but count it their naturallity , their carnality to call any of the ordinances of Christ , even that which may seem to them the most emp●y ( for here 's the mystery of Christ giving out heavenly treasure in earthen vessels ) I say to call those lowness , weaknesse , unprofitablenesse , foolishnesse . As many as Christ commanded to be taught , preacht to , and made disciples , are commanded when discipled to be baptized in water in the name of the father , Son and holy spirit , But Christ commanded all nations , even every creature therein , that is capable thereof , to be taught , preacht to , and discipled . Ergo , all nations , even every creature , none excepted , so soon as discipled , are commanded to be baptized , &c. The first proposition is most undeniably evident , for teaching and baptizing are both concluded here under ●he and the very same numerical command , and both instituted here de novo as parts of the will and Testament of Christ in one and the same word of institution , and both enjoined to be used to one and the same subject viz. all nations , every creature , therefore if every creature as far as capable to be preacht to by us , and we are capable to preach to him , is to be taught , as is expressely asserted not onely in the Minor but in the texts themselves , then it must needs follow that every creature , after he is preacht to and converted to the faith by our instruction , is to be baptized , and that no creature is exempted or excused from being baptized , any more then he is from being taught and discipled , no not one , and consequently that baptism is not a meere matter of liberty , and indiffe●ency that may ad placitum be done by us , or let alone , but a matter of absolute duty , of positive praecep● , and necessitate precepti ( and therefore how far forth necessitate medu ad salutem is worth examining ) a matter of necessity if not of equall necessity with that of repenting and believing , for if it be his voice and command equally with the other ( and we see t is in one and the same place , and phrase given out as his will together with the other ) then why it should not be equally obeyed , and that sub paena , fith he is that Prophet whom God hath now raised up unto us , whose voice whoever harkneth not to in all things whatsoever he saith , shall be cut off from among his people , no man is able to give a solid reason , nor yet why any should shun to declare it , it being a a part of that whole councel of God , which the Apostle Paul durst not decline to declare the whole of , f any more then to declare the doctrine of faith , repentance and obedience in other things ; yea and such a weighty part of that councel , and of such neer concernment , and great consequence unto us is baptism , that as it is said , even that despised dispensation of water baptism , to be from heaven g , and not of men , so they that own it are said to justifie God , and they that rej●ct it and refuse to submit to it are said to reject the councel of God against themselves . h And all the people that heard , and the Publicans justified God , being baptized with the baptism of John , but the Pharisees and Lawyers rejected the councel of God against themselves being not baptized of him . And to prove it to be no matter of meer indifferency , but of duty to all believers , I argue yet further from the forenamed Scripture thus . That which is positively commanded to be done , and dispenst to all persons , when once discipled , without exception of any , and without the least intimation of a dispensation from Christ to any to omit it , is not a matter of meer indifferency , but of absolute duty among all those persons that are so discipled . But baptism is positively commanded to be dispensed to all persons when once discipled , without exception of any , and without the least intimation of a dispensation from Christ to any to omit it , yea I may say as positively commanded to be dispensed to disciples as persons are commanded to be taught , discipled or to repent and believe the Gospel , and that is so positively that he that knowing it to be Christs will concerning him submits not to it , obeyes not Christ in it , shall be damned . Ergo baptism is no matter of meer indifferency but of absolute duty to all believers , or disciples . The Major is most undeniable : the Minor also is most expresse and obvious to every eye in the text it self , where it s said ( in one intire sentence by way of positive command concerning both these ) teach all Nations baptizing them , i. e. all them that are taught and made disciples : and not onely in this Scripture but also in several other , which I may alledge very subservient unto this as to the proof of the second proposition . The first whereof is Act. 22.16 . and row why tarriest thou ? arise and be baptized , and wash away thy sins , calling on the name of the Lord , where it is not a little worth our noting in this case , that Ananias doth not onely in one and the same sentence command Paul to be baptized as strictly , as to call on the name of the Lord , but also checks him in a certain round reproof , and angry expostulation , for his lingring , and delaying in this businesse , which he could not rationally have done if it had been , no neglect of duty in Paul to be tardy to it , and a matter of no necessity , but of such indifferency that t was , without danger of incurring divine dispeasure , at Pauls choice whether he would be baptized yea or no. The second is Acts 2.38 . the first place , wherein we read of any practising according to that commission that Christ gives out in Mat. 28. that being indeed the first time of its beginning to be put in execution , by Peter and the rest , who , being impowred so to do , in obedience thereunto went forth and preached repentance , faith , and baptism for remission of sins among all nations ( pro suo modulo ) beginning at Ierusalem , as also they were required to do Luke 24.47 . in which Scripture ( I mean Acts 2. ) to a people enquiring what they should do we find Peter preaching positively thus viz. repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Iesus Christ for remission of sins &c. where note that as he joines repentance and water baptism together , so in one and the same precept and word of command he enjoines them both together to be practised as the mind of Christ , and that to every one then , and there present , that had not yet performed these services , without exempting any one of all those thousands he then spake to one jot more from the practise of baptism , then of repentance it self , which phrase , viz. Repent , and be baptized every one of you &c. he could not warrantably have delivered himself in unto them in the name of Christ , if he had not had clear commission from him by way of precept to impose baptism on all men as the mind of Christ concerning them , and a duty to be practised by them all as well as repentance , without holding any one excused . The third is A●t . 10.47.48 . Can any man forbid water why these should not be baptized , which have received the holy spirit as well as we ? and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. In which words I appeal to the conscience of every considerate man whether Peter doth not , not onely command all those persons , and that in Christs name , who were then and there converted , to be baptized in water , but also assert it to be beyond the power of the persons themselves , or any other to forbid it to be dispensed to them , or to g●an● them a dispensation to forbear it ? for when he queries who can ? he means no man can forbid water why these should not be baptized , ( for an Interrogation affirmative concludes negatively ) whereupon ( nemine prohibente ) he commanded them ( and what h● commanded them was no lesse then their duty and the positive will of God concerning them ( for it s said to Cornelius v. 6. that Peter should tell him what he ought to do ) and also no lesse then what he was commissionated from Christ to impose upon them , or else Peter deluded them to whom he spake , for v. 39. he calls it the word of God sent to Israel , and v. 33. they expected to hear not what he should please but what was commanded him of God ) he commanded them I say nemine contradicente in the Lords name to be baptized ; which Peter had no power to have done had it been by the Lord himself left ad libitum unto them , yea had it been a thing so needlesse , of such liberty , and such no-necessity as many make it now adaies , I would by Peters leave , had I been there , and been one of those that were so flatly commanded , have interposed , and forbid their bapt●sm , or at least my own , unlesse my flesh had had more mind to it then it had when I used it , and have pleaded , as our Genteel spiritualists do against us , in this wise against Peter , viz. you are much mistaken Peter in this matter , you go about to urge it as an absolute duty and matter of necessity for us to be baptized in water , but alas it s no such matter , t is but an external dispensation , that may be done indeed if any be not satisfyed without it , but else may full as well be let alone ; we have the most substantiall baptism already , even that of the spirit , in which case the other is but meer superfluity to be used afterward , you cannot make it such an absolute command from God to us as you seem to do , and therefore whereas you ask who can forbid ? even I can forbid , why I should not be baptized as by positive precept from Christ , seeing I have received the holy spirit as well as you . Thus verily might one have cavilled against Peters command then , as the Ra●ter cavils against Peters command now , which is not out of date , nor hath lost any of its validity sure with lying so long unpractised , if baptism in water were such an indifferent thing as t is now made by the new Spirituallists , who little consider ( but I assure them wise men will weigh it well though they do not ) how little their Logick and Peters are like one another ( whereby it may be gathered what contrary spirits be , and they speak by ) for whereas he reasons thus , viz. these men have received the spirit , and have the most substantial baptism already , as well as those that are baptized in water , therefore who can forbid water why , or give any good reason to the contrary why these should not be baptized ? and accordingly commanded them so to be . They contrary wise reason thus . Viz. These men have the spirit , the most substantial baptism already , as well as those that are baptized in water , Therefore who can command it as necessary or give any sound reason why these should be baptized in water ? and accordingly forbid them so to be . But whether it be right in the sight of God to obey them foolishly forbidding it , as needlesse , at best but indifferency , or obey God by the mouth of Peter commanding it universally to all men as their duty judge ye . T is clear therefore out of all these places that water baptism is so far from being sinfull that t is more then lawfull , more then indifferent , yea a matter of duty , and necessity , and such as it would become men to submit to as well as Christ , who needed it not , as we do , if there were no other end , nor use of it then to fulfill all the righteousnesse of his law , the least of whose commandements whoever shall break , and teach men so , i. e. that they need not keep them , the same shall be least in the kingdom of heaven , but who so shall do ▪ and teach , the same shall be great in the kingdom of heaven g and to whom he that is faithful , though but in a little , is faithful in much , and he that is unfaithful in but a little is unfaithful in too much h , specially if that little be left us in way of command in his word as his positive will concerning us , and not as a matter of such indifferency as that it may , without ●in on either side , be done or not done , which we please , for such things onely and indeed are indifferent , of which we may by the word say as Paul saies of meats and marriage viz. one believeth he may eat all things , another who is weak , eateth , herbs , one man esteemeth one day above another , another man esteemeth every day alike , let every man be fully perswaded in his own mind ; h so seek not a wife , yet if thou marry thou hast not sinned ; i but so we cannot say , nor do the Apostles speak concerning baptism , viz. one man believeth that , having the spirit he may , but needs not be baptized , another , who is weak , must needs be baptized , let every one do as they see good , or are satisfied in this case , if they be baptized they have not sinned , and if they never be baptized they have not sinned &c. nay both Christ and they speak here in way of peremptory determination of all persons to one point ; for whereas if baptism were a matter thus left to our minds , Christ must have said to his disciples go teach all nations , every creature , baptizing as many of those you make disciples onely as judge it needful , as have a mind to it , not teaching them to observe that outward rite , any further then they please , and Ananias to Paul , and Peter to those he preacht to Act. 2. Act. 10. must have said repent , and believe remission of sins , and call on the name of the Lord , and if any of you be so mindeed , you may be baptized in water in token of Christs death , burial and resurrection , but those that seem to themselves to be as well without it , may forbear , we have no power either to forbid it , or force them to it ; but they say clean otherwise viz. Go teach all Nations baptizing them , teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I command you , and now why tarriest thou ? arise and be baptized , ●nd wash away thy sins &c. repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Iesus , &c. who can forbid water why these i. e. all these should not be baptized &c. all which if it do not import and expresse water baptism to be every ones duty , and not any ones liberty onely , then my understanding stands under a cloud of utter darknesse . Yea verily t is very remarkable in my mind , and as well worth our heeding as any thing else in this case , that when Paul , in his trembling and astonished condition , enquired of the Lord what he would have him to do , the first thing and well nigh the onely thing that the word expresses that Christ by the mouth of Ananias declared to him as his will at that time , which was immediately after his conversion , was this duty of baptism : see Act. 6.9 . and the trembling and astonished said Lord what wilt thou have me to do ? and the Lord said unto him arise and go into the City , and it shall be told thee what thou must do , which passage Paul relating of himself Act. 22.10 . expresses it thus viz. and I said what shall I do Lord ? and the Lord said to me arise , and go into Damascus , and there it shall be told thee of all things , which are appointed for thee to do : Now when he was come into Damascus , Ananias speaks thus to him v. 14. the God of our fathers hath chosen thee that thou should know his will. But what part of Christs will doth the word say Ananias there makes known to Paul in that place , as that which at that time he must do , and was appointed that he should do ? no more then what is exprest in these words Act. 22. v. 15.16 . thou shalt be his witnesse unto all men of that thou hast seen and heard . And now why tarriest thou ? arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord. And as Peter in his first preaching the praeceptory part of Christs Gospel to the Jews , when they enquired what they should do ? and to the company at Cornelius's house , and Ananias in his to Paul , when he quaeried what he should do ? did preach baptism as the will of Christ concerning them as well as repentance , prayer and such like duties , so we shall find it was the constant course of all other primitive preachers in their preachings of Christ to any people , to hold forth baptism to them , as that which was to be submitted to by them out of hand , after faith and repentance professed , and also the constant course of persons converted to the faith without delay to submit to that dispensation accordingly , for howbeit the very form of words , wherein they spake to them concerning baptism , and prest it upon believers as their duty , is not set down syllabically in every place , where its evident , yet most manifestly evident , and past all doubt it is to any , but such as seeing will not see , that in their doctrine , they delivered the mind of Christ to people in this point of baptism , and commanded it too , even in those places , where the Scripture doth not expresse what they said , or else how it came to passe that their converts were acquainted with it so as readily to imbrace it , and some of them to demand it , as we find they did , I know not , unless we shall imagine they knew and owned it by some divine immediate instinct . Acts 16.13.14.15 . it s said that the Lord opening the heart of Lydia so that she attended unto the things which were spoken by Paul , she was baptized and her houshold , who undoubtedly attended to the things that Paul preached together with her , doth not this palpably presuppose that baptism was one of those things spoken by Paul , and prest upon that Auditory , or else how came she to know it ? and also to what purpose did she perform it ? likewise Act. 16.30.31.32.33 . to the Jaylor asking Sirs what must I do to be saved ? its said that Paul and Silas preached the word of the Lord , and to all that were in his house : but what word of the Lord was it that they spake to them ? indeed the summe of their doctrine is not set down , but that the doctrine of baptism was some of it , as well as faith , which is expressely set down , as that which concerned them in the first place is clear , or else it s a mystery to me how he and all his , who are said v. 34. to believe in the Lord together with him , should come to understand that they ought to be baptized , much more to submit to be baptized straightway : ●o Act. 18.8 . it s said that Crispus the chief ruler of the Synagogue , and all his house and many of the Corinthians , hearing the word , b●lieved and were baptized , which how or why they should suffer themselves to be , if the word they then heard ( none of which is set down ) did not hold forth baptism as well as faith I cannot possibly conjecture : in like manner we read Act. 8.4 . that Philip went to Samaria and preached Christ to them , and v. 12. that when they believed the things spoken by Philip pertaining to the Kingdom of God , and the name of Iesus Christ , they were baptized both men and women : yea and this not a service they submitted to on their own heads , in their own names , as that which , had they been so pleased , they might as well have forborn , but v. 16. they were baptized in the name of the Lord Iesus , it s said also v. 35. of the Eunuch that Philip preached unto him Iesus , not one jot of Philips sermon unto him is set down , but the next newes we hear is this v. 36. that coming to a certain water in the way , the Eunuch desired to be baptized , saying see here is water , what hinder ▪ why I may not be baptized ? doth not all this plainly import , howbeit what Philip preached to the Samaritans and the Eunuch is not extant expressely in any particulars thereof , yet he preached the ends and ●uses of bap●ism to them , and prest the practise thereof upon them ? how else could they have known it ? why else did they both do and desire it ? we see then how the first preachers of the Gospel Ananias , Philip , Peter , Paul are said all along to preach Christ , k and Jesus , l and the things concerning the kingdome of God and the name Jesus Christ , m and the word of the Lord , n and peace by Jesus and things that we must do , o and that are appointed for us to do , p and what we ought to do , q and the things that were commanded them of God , r to command us in his name , and yet preacht baptism still as well as faith , repentance and salvation : and so he seems to me to this day to preach Christ but by the halves , that preaches salvation by Christ , faith in Christ , and not baptism in the name of Christ for remission of sins . And as this doctrine of water baptism was thus universally preached in Christs name , as his will concerning those that were converted and discipled , in obedience punctually to Christs Commission in that kind Mat. 28.18.19.20 . in those primitive ages of the Gospel , so was it as universally imbraced , and obeyed by them that were made disciples in those dayes , not onely before , but also after Christ crucified . for as in the dayes before Iohn the baptist was beheaded , and before Christ crucified , all those multitudes of disciples , which by each of them were made by teaching , were universally baptized either by Iohn , confessing their sins , or by Christs disciples , who dispenst in Christs name , for he dispenst not himself , in Enon , or Iordan , or some other places that were convenient Mat. 3.5.6 . Iohn 3.22.13.4.1.2 . so even long after Christ crucified , raised , and ascended were the people , that were discipled and converted to the faith , before ever they joined in visible Church-fellowship in one body in breaking of bread and prayers , baptized all without exception : for as it s said Act. 2.38.40.41.42 . of that first Church of the Jews , or Hebrews , to whom that Epistle was after written , they were bid to be baptized every one of them , so as many of them as did gladly receive the word of the Lord i. e. as repented and imbraced the Gospel , were baptized , and then continued in the Apostles doctrine ( who surely taught them all the six first principles of the oracles or holy things of God at that time , Heb. 5.12.6.1.2 . and what more they saw occasion for , for with many more other words then those that are recorded did Peter then exhort that people v. 40. ) and in fellowship and in breaking of bread and prayers , so it s said 1 Cor. 12.13 . of the whole Church of Corinth in way of sacramental metonymy , whereby that is very familiarly spoken of the thing signified , which can be spoken properly onely of the outward sign , et retro , by one spirit we are all baptized into one body , Iewes or Gentiles , bond or free , none excepted , and have been all made to drink into one spirit . Yea as these Churches in Iudea , Ierusalem , and Corinth were all baptized before bailt up in a body , so which of all the Churches were not , to whom the Apostles directed afterward those several Epistles ? All the Romans to whom Paul wrote were baptized , s all the Galatians were baptized , t the Ephesians , which at first were but 12 disciples that imbraced the truth , were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus , v the Colossians were baptized , x the Philippians were baptized , as we see by Lydia and the Iaylor r and all those that believed with them , which was the beginning of the Church at Philippi ; and that the Thessalonians were not baptized is more then bruitish to imagine , for surely Paul and Silas that went immediately thither from Philippi where the Iaylor and Lydia and many more were baptized , had not got a new doctrine of no-baptism to preach before they came to Thessalonica ; nay it is evident by the Jews accusation of them Act. 17 6. that what doings and disturbance they were occasion of through their preachings and baptizings at Philippi , the same they were by the same means , no causes , but occasions of at Thessalonica , therefore of them say they , these that have turned the world upside down are come hither also , yea Paul himself hints that to us , 1 Thess. 2.2 . that after they had suffered and were shamefully intreated at Philippi , they yet were bold to speak to the Thessalonians the Gospel of God ( the same Gospel sure that they preacht at Philippi , for what he did and ordained in one Church , the same he did , and ordained in all the Churches 1 Cor. 16.1 ) with much contention . By all which foregoing considerations the Minor of the third main argument above is cleared , which assure baptism to be commanded to all without exception , therefore a duty from which we are not exempted . What Christ commanded to be taught and observed not only in and among all nations of the world , but also in all ages and generations thereof even to the very end , the same is not ad placitum , but de jure , not at mens own pleasure , but of right to be taught and observed as Christs will , and their duty in all nations to this very day . Bu● Christ commanded Baptism in water to be taught and observed not onely in and among all Nations of the world , but also in all ages and generations therof even to the end . Ergo Baptism in water is not at mens own pleasure , but of right to be taught and observed as Christs will and their duty in all nations to this very day . The Minor , which only needs proving , needs none neither to him that will but observe how plain it is to every mans understanding in the text . For first if baptism be to be taught to , and observed as duty among all nations and by every creature therein that hears and believes , as t is clear it is both here ( for teach them saies Christ i. e. all nations to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you , and did he not command them in the very verse above the observation of that administration of baptism ? ) and also Mark 16.15.16 . ( where he bids that the Gospel of salvation be from thenceforth tendred on terms of faith and baptism to all the world , to every creature capable of being preach to ) then of necessity in all nations and generations to the worlds end , for all nations were not then extant , but many nations are risen since , that the world then knew not , all the world , every creature was not in actual being at that time , neither could possibly be all baptized unless baptism abide in its right in all ages unto the end , by all nations , every creature , all the world , Christ denoted all people of the earth that then were , or thereafter should be , whom , as they should successively arise , and grow into capacity for it , he would have to be in their several generation succesively taught and baptized . Besides how plainly doth Christ expresse his meaning to be that this course of baptizing in wa●er should be kept a foot in all ages and generations v. 20. where after his precept to observe that dispensation he adds this promise of his presence , And lo I am with you alwaies i. e. in your faithful observation of all these things ( for if men be not found in this way he is disingaged ) even to the end of the world Amen . Whence the argument in form may be thus . What way of outward administration Christ not onely required to be observed to the end , but likewise promised his people to be present with them during their due observation of to the very end of the world that must stand of right to the very end of the world . But Christ hath not onely required that outward administration of water baptism to be observed to the end of the world , but likewise hath promised his people to be present with them during their due observation of it to the very end of the world . Ergo that administration of water baptism is of right to stand even to the very end of the world . The objections that are usually made against what is asserted hitherto concerning the needfulnesse of water baptism to all , who will not be under a just account of rejecting the counsell of that Prophet and rebelling against the command of King Jesus , among which I shall set down none but such as to my own knowledge have been made , and among them I shall not fail to set down ( if not all ) yer at least hose that by the opposite party in this point are called and counted the principal , for so is one parcel of the ensuing reasons stiled in a certain coppy of them , which was given to me lately while I was at the presse , viz. The principall Reasons why believers need not be baptized ( whereby you may ghesse how little worth answering the lesse principal are ) are on this wise . Ranterist . The Baptism mentioned Mat. 28.18 , 19.20 . was not water baptism , but the baptism of the spirit . Baptist. Your blind boldnesse , and buzzardly blindnesse in this I inwardly blush at , when I ( as I hope your self will also , when you ) consider , 1. that it was a baptism enjoined , and commanded to be dispensed , and that 2. By meer men , Who never were yet since the world stood so highly prerogativ'd from the Father , as to be made administrators of more then water baptism , or to be baptizers with the spirit , for that was ever yet , now is , and ever will be the peculiar prerogative royal of Christs own royal person , never to be impared to any other ; to give , i. e. to baptize persons with the holy spirit , the father by him , and he immediately by himself without imparting any of that power , which he only had to do it , to others to give it in his name , is the sole giver of every good and perfect gift Iam. 1.17 . So Luke 9.13 . Your heavenly Father will give the holy spirit to them that ask him : So Act. 5.32 . the holy spirit which God hath given to all them that obey him : 2 Cor. 5.5 . God who hath given us the earnest of his spirit : 1 Ephes. 13.14 . sealed with the holy spirit of promise which is the earnest &c. The Baptism with the spirit is the inward seal upon the heart , that only God sets , and not any meer man , meer man is commissionated and impowerd from God to dispense no more but the outward sign , i. e. water baptism , which is not the seal of the New Covenant , as the Priests call it , for that 's the spirit , which God onely gives throw Christ the Son , for him onely hath God the Father sealed i. e. authorized , honoured with that priviledge , viz. to be under himself the sole dispenser of the spirit Iohn 6.26 . which wherever it s given gives gifts in such wise as seems good unto him , 1 Cor. 12.4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. There are diversities of gifts , but the same spirit , all these worketh that one , and the self same spirit distributing to every one severally as he will , There are differences of administrations , diversities of operations , meaning internall administrations and operations upon the soul , for there be outward administrations and operations ad extra , as preaching , praying , water baptism , laying on of hands with prayer , breaking bread , in which men act to Godward in order to his acting toward us in the other , for men may promise us the spirit , and shew us what to do , and baptize us in water in order to our having the spirit , and pray for us that we may receive the holy spirit , &c. and minister to us outwardly in the ordinances of divine service , which this new Testament , which in respect to the old Testament is called the ministration of the Spirit , because God gives down to them that wait on him sincerely and believingly in these outward waies of the Gospel , which are ( to see to ) but foolish instruments , earthen vessels , in some measure here the heavenly treasure of his spirit , and hereupon as they hold forth the word of the gospel , in the hearing of which the spirit is received , as t was not in the hearing of the law ( for the spirit was not the promise of that Covenant of Circumcision , but the old Canaan , for I will circumcise thy heart &c. was a Gospel promise though made in the time of the law ) and in these respects , viz. as preaching , and dispensing gospel ordinances they may be stiled ( and in such a sense onely are they so stiled , 2 Cor. 3.6 . ) Ministers not of the Letter , i. e. the Law , but of the spirit , i. e. the Gospel ; But there is but one and the same Lord , and t is one and the same God who worketh all in all . All in All is Christs own glorious , Paul and Apollos and the Ministers by whom we believe may work , and do all that is to be done without to all men , they may baptize in water by commission from Christ ( for so he himself baptized not but his disciples , viz. Iohn Baptist and the rest ) and wicked men may by his permission baptize , i. e. overwhelm us with suffering , shame &c. But himself onely baptizes us with that holy spirit of his , that must support us under suffering , he sends the comforter : he was the onely baptizer of them upon whom the spirit sell in the Apostles ministration of baptism with water , in which case the spirit was promised Act. 2. and of laying on hands with prayer in which way , though not ever * , yet ordinarily it was dispensed . I indeed baptize you in water ( saies Iohn ) i. e. we men can minister no further to you , being but messengers from him to do that , but he shall baptize you with the holy spirit and fire Mat. 3.11 . so see how Iohn peculiarly indigitates him Iohn 11.33 . as in sole right to that service , the same is he that baptizeth with the holy spirit , and as Iohn did baptize onely with water , so with no more then water did all the disciples and Apostles after Christ crucified baptize ; not with the spirit , ( for that Christ onely did in their due dispensation of the other ) they had no promise any where that I find of such a priviledge : I find it promised to them Act. 1.9 . that they should be baptized with the holy spirit not many daies thence , but never that they should baptize with the holy spirit , Christ keeps himself the right of powring that out upon all men as they turn to him Proverbs 22.23 . I am ashamed therefore at the cloudy conceits of such as say that was not water baptism with which Christ commanded his disciples to baptize the Nations after teaching Mat. 28.18 19.20 . And the rather because , Secondly , it s as clear as if it were written with a beam of the sun , that what was done most immediately , and more remotely by the disciples in obedience to that commssion , when once power was come on them to go forth ( till when they were to stay , and forbear their testimony Luke 24.47.48.49 . Act. 1.8 . which was no more but teaching , and as to baptism the baptizing in water : for Act. 2.38 . Peter promised them indeed that they should receive , or be baptized with the holy spirit in case they would repent and be baptized , but the baptism he prest them to , and upon which he promises the other cannot be that of the spirit , but water , unlesse wee l feign Peter to have spoken such Tautological non-sense as this to them viz. repent and be baptized with the spirit , and then you shall receive the holy spirit and as the beginning of their execution of Christs commission was no other ( save what they promised ) as to their dispensation of baptism , then teaching and baptizing in water , and after praying for the Spirit with laying on hands , so were all their proceedings suitable hereunto , for he is fast asleep with his eyes open , resolving to see and say nothing in favor of water baptism , but to cry it down against light , that shall say that those which are said to be baptized in the name of the Lord Iesus , Act. 8.12.16 . Act. 19.5 . and to be commanded by Peter to be baptized in the name of the Lord Act. 10.48 . were baptized by Philip , Paul , Peter or any man else with any more then meer water baptism , for the baptism with the spirit is in all these places spoken of as received from God in way of laying on of hands in prayer , and preaching besides the other , as either preceding or succeeding it , as the Lord pleased in his own season to dispense it . Ranterist . If it were water baptism that was meant Mat. 28. and that was practised by Peter , Philip , Paul and the other primitive ministers , yet that water baptism was no other then the baptism of John onely , and not of Christ , that was ere long to cease , and to vanish before the baptism of Christ i. e. that of the spirit , when that should come in , and not to continue as a standing dispensation to be used and practised to the end . John the Baptist Mat. 3.11 . opposeth his baptism to the baptism of Christ , which could not have been done , if the baptism with water was an inseparable companion of Christs doctrine : how could John say verily I baptize you with water , but he shall baptize you with the holy spirit , if Christ had been commanded to baptize with water as well as Iohn ? if so , the words of John would have run thus , verily I baptize you with onely water , but he shall baptize you also with the holy spirit ▪ Baptist. Here again I cannot but professe my to be ashamed at this curious conceit of yours , who distinguish the baptism of water , and that of the spirit into Iohns and Christs , and oppose these two one to the other , as if the one of these were destructive to the other , as if that of Iohns were his own , and none of Christs , when yet that is so undeniably evident as it is , that this of water , as well as that of the spirit , was given out by Ch●ist himself so plainly as a part of his will and testament h to abide together with teaching , believing and repenting to the worlds end . You talk as if the baptism with water was an ordinance of Iohn , a baptism of which not Christ , but Iohn was under God the main Moderator pro tempore while it stood in force , as if Iohn had instituted , and ordained it , and Christ put an end to it , as if Iohn were the Author of it , and Christ the finisher , to cause it to cease , whereas nothing is more clear then that Christ himself was both the Author and finisher of it in another sense , i. e. he that first ordained and appointed it to be administred even by Iohn himself , and after Iohns decease , yea and after his own death and resurrection too , gave order to its continuance , and for the observation of it among all Nations now , as thitherto it had been observed only among the Jews : I say its clear that the baptism with water was Christs baptism , and howbeit it be called Iohns , as Iohn was the first minister , and messenger from Christ to begin it , ( for behold I send my messenger and he shall prepare my way before me saith Christ of Iohn Mal. 3.1 , ) yet Christ himself was the chief Author of it , in whose name and not in Iohns it was begun and dispensed ever , even in that juncture wherein Iohn himself was living , and verst about it , and before Christ had so specially commanded the continuance of it in all Nations to the worlds end , in his own and the fathers and the spirits name as he does Mat. 28.18.19.20 . and ever after that also as we may see , Act. 2.29 . where Peter preaching the same doctrine that Iohn himself did viz. the baptism of repentance for remission of sins x , sayes repent and be baptized in the name of Iesus Christ , for remission of sins , so Act. 8.16 . they were baptized with this water baptism in the name of the Lord Iesus , so Act. 10.47 . he commanded them ●o be baptized in the name of the Lord , so Act. 19.3.4 . where after that to certain disciples who were baptized with Iohns baptism , Paul had said Iohn veryly baptized with the baptism of repentance saying unto the people that they should believe on him that should come after that is on Christ Jesus , it is said , that when they heard this they were baptized i. e. in water in the name of the Lord Iesus . We see therefore that though its called the baptism of Iohn as Iohn began it , yet it is that which Christ , who was no minister , servant , or disciple of Iohn ( for Iohn was his ) so owned as his , as not onely to honour it with his own submission to it , though in no such need of it as we , & more above it then any of us , to fulfil all righteousnesse of his own law i. e. the Gospel for example sake to us , but also in his own ministry to give order to his disciples to administer it to all the disciples they should make , and this not onely before as Iohn 3.11 . Iohn 4.1.2 . but likewise after his own death and resurrection , even when he was now ready to ascend , Mat. 28. Mark. 16. which , sure he would not have done , if there had been such opposition as you speak of betwen the baptism with water , that was called Iohns , and that bap●sm of the spirit , which because he onely baptizes with that , is called Christs , that they must not both abide together in the world to the end , but one vanish away presently before the other , and it had not been the mind of Christ that water baptism should be rather ( as you deny it to be ) an inseparable companion of his doctrine , nay surely instead of confirming the doctrine and practise of water baptism , as Christ did in his ministry , before his death , practising it , i. e. by the hands of his disciples on all the disciples which he himself made as Iohn 3.22.4.1.2 . and after his resurrection , and immediately before his ascension y giving commandments to his disciples to observe it and teach all Nations to observe the same as Mat. 28.18.19.20 . he would rather have confiscated it , instead of causing it to continue by giving new and fresh commission for it , he would have caused it to cease by some intimation or other , that when the holy spirit should be given , and men begin to be baptized therewith , then there should be no longer attendance given to the baptism with water , he would have said go teach all Nations ( beginning at Ierusalem ) that there must be now no more bapzing with water , but that in the way of repentance and faith onely without that baptism , they shall be baptized with the spirit , & Peter knowing his mind would have said to them Act 2 39. when they askt what they should do , repent you of all your sins and believe in Christ in order to the remission of them , but in the name of Jesus Christ be not baptized in water , as some while since every penitent was used to be , for that was a dispensation and baptism of Iohn that had its time a while meerly to prepare the way of Christ , but is now abolished and out of date , we must forsake Iohn now and not be baptized nor walk after those customes , but expect a baptism with the spirit onely , also Act. 10.47 . who can require these persons to be baptized in water that have received the spirit , and are baptized with the spirit as well as we ? Thus I say they would have said and done , as Paul when circumcision , and the Law was to cease , as much as he condescended in the case of Ti●othy , yet never commanded it to con●inue , but taught all the Jewes that were among the Gentiles to forsake Moses saying that they should not circumcise their children nor walk aft●r the customes Acts 21.21 . if there had been such opposition , such inconsi●tency between the baptism in water , and that of the spirit that they must not stand together , if baptism in water must no● have remained rather in a certain continual subserviency to the other , if it were not to be according to Christs will an inseperable companion of his doctrine , but we find not the least hint or intimation of the mind of Christ , when expressed either by his own mouth or the mouth of his Apostles , that were to deliver and command nothing to people , but what they had received of the Lord Jesus , and what was commanded them of the Lord , as concerning the cessation of that service , or any toleration of any one person to omit it , but as we find it a part of Christs Gospel and Testament even from the very beginning of it which was in Johns baptizing with water , * So for ought I ●ind it was ae jure to continue as a part of his Testament among other things , not a tittle of which Testament is yet annihilated , till he , whose will and Testament the whole is , shall come to take account of all men how as to the preceptory part of it they have observed it . Whereas therefore you seem to be of this opinion that Christ was not commanded , i. e. not commissionated from the Father to baptize with water as well as Iohn , because it s said by Iohn I verily baptize you with water , but he shall baptize you with the holy spirit , as if Christ had had nothing to do to meddle with that water baptism as any ordinance of his , or to give any order about it , as if he had had no more power to dispense or enjoin that , then Iohn had power to meddle in Christs peculiarity , or to take on him to baptize with the spirit : I must tell you that Christ had command and commission from the Father to that service of water baptism , though , it being the external inferiour matter , he committed the actual administration of it to his disciples and Ministers , among whom I look on Iohn as the chief , or else , sith he commanded others to do it , and so baptized per alios at least , if not per se Iohn 3.22.4 ▪ 12. his testimony of himself Iohn 12.49.50 . Iohn 16.31 . is not true , which indeed were blasphemy to think , for he there professes that he spake nothing of himself , but the Father which sent him gave him commandment what he should say , and what he should speak , and that whatever he spake even as the father gave him commandment so he spake , and likewise that as the Father gave him commandment so he did : whereupon since he did by his disciples baptize with water in Iudaea while Iohn and his disciples in Aenon Ioh. 3.22.23 . and made and baptized more disciples then Iohn ( for all came and flockt to his dispensations of water baptism at last , and left John , insomuch as he in his Ministry , even of water baptism , increased and Iohn decreased Iohn 3.26.27.28 , 29 , 30 ▪ ) those words of Iohn , as much as you think it absurd to understand them so , must necessarily run so in any solid understanding , though the terms onely and also be not expressed , viz. I verily baptize you with water onely , i. e. I can go no further then to that outward administration of water , but he shall baptize you also with the holy spirit , i. e. he is impowered to dispense higher matters to you then water only , with which he baptizes too as well as I , i. e. not himself but his disciples , viz. that bap●ism with the holy spirit : in which words you cannot say properly that Iohn opposeth his baptism , to the baptism of Christ , as if that which is called his were none of Christs but rather that John magnifies the person of Christ above himself , as who should say , I can dispense no more then the bare outward sign , but Christ , who though he came after me yet was preferred before me , in whose name , and not in my own I baptize , and whose the baptism is that I dispense , and not mine , he is able besides the sign to vouchsafe you the very thing signifyed thereby . This baptism then of water in the name of Christ together with repentance from dead works and faith in his name Iohn Baptist was the first Minister to begin , in which respect it is sometimes stiled his , but he left it after a while to Christ himself and his disciples to carry on , who all ti●l Christ was actually crucifyed preacht and practised the self same things that Iohn did , viz. repentance , and faith in a Christ yet to suffer for remission of sins , and baptism in water in token thereof , and saving some circumstantiall difference the very same in substance even after Christ was crucified too . For herein onely the baptism with water which was Christs , and of which Iohn was but a Minister ( as we are ) differs since Christ crucified from what it was before he was crucified viz. that then it was the baptism of repentance and faith for remission of sins by a Christ that was ere long to suffer , for so Iohn preached Act. 19.4 . and baptized Matth. 3.2 . saying repent , for the kingdome of heaven is at hand , and Christ himself preached the very same thing Mat. 4.17 . and baptized i. e. by his disciples with the same baptism Iohn 3.22 , 23 , 26-4 . 1 , 2. but now since the Son is lifted up and hath suffered and is risen , it is the baptism of repentance and faith for remission of sins by a Christ that is already dead for sin , and risen again for justification Rom. 4.25 . Act. 3.18 . 26-10 . 38 , 39 40 , 41 &c. So that the baptism of Iohn ( for so that was called that was dispensed before Christ had suffered , and was yet to come Act. 19.4 . ) and that of the disciples of Christ after Christ crucifyed differ not in substance , but onely in this small circumstance in which also the●r Gospel in point of faith did differ , viz. that one was a baptism into Christ to suffer , the other into a Christ that had suffered ; and so they preached a different faith , a different Christ , and yet all one and the same : yea so Christs own ministry differed from it self considered in this different time of before and after his death : for before both he and his disciples preacht the same gospel , repentance , faith and baptism that Iohn did , viz. of salvation by the son of God to suffer , but had Iohn liv'd till Christ had suffered , he would then have preached the same repentance , faith , and baptism that Christ then did , and we now do , viz. of salvation by the son of God that hath suffered , and this is all the same substantially , though circumstantially thus diversified from the other ; wherefore the word of the Gospel under Iohn , and after Christs death , is called the very same word , and the word that Peter preacht to Cornelius's house , is said to begin from Iohns baptism , and as the word with which Iohn came preaching , so the baptism with which Iohn came baptizing continued still , and was preached and practised by command from Christ by the mouth of Peter on disciples believing in that very place Act. 10 , 36 , 37 , 38 , 39 , 40. &c. to the end , and this not , in honour of Iohn ( as in discourse with some it hath been frivolously answered me ) but as a thing which ought to be done as in force a new from the Lord Christ in whose name ( which Peter abus'd to them , if he had not warrant from Christ so to do ) he commanded them all , and that in water , to be baptized . Ranterist . You have spoken much concerning Christs commanding the observation of water baptism to the end of the world , and of Christs promising his presence to his disciples , in the observation thereof , to the end of the world , but you are mightily mistaken in the meaning of Christ in that phrase to the end of the world Mat. 28.20 , for he means no more thereby , but to the end of that age , as Mr. Saltmarsh well observed , * from the signification of the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which properly signifies age . Baptist. That Mr. Saltmarsh hath such a passage there I very well remember , and how many have been stumbled thereby , and by sundry other fancies of his to the imbracing of such notions and principles , as from whence they have at last commenced Atheists ( he being in his time a man of such account among some , that his sayings were received as oracles ) I cannot but with some sadnesse consider : and that the wo●d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies age I dare not deny ▪ but that it signifies age in that sense , in which Mr. Saltmarsh ( I hope ) onely mistook it , and most of his admirers do yet miserably mistake it to do , I dare boldly and do utterly deny , for first , where as they restrain the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so as to say it sounds forth no more then seculum i. e. some one particular age , or generation , properly it rather signifies aevum age i. e. time taken together in the whole lump of it , all time , or all ages collectively considered from that particular age or time we speak of , even to the end of time it self , or at least of the time of this world ; neither doth the spirit ever ( for ought I find ) much lesse usually , use the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he means to expresse some one age or generation onely , specially in the writings of the Evangelists , a and also elsewhere , b But Secondly , when he speaks of time or age in the whole bulk of it , of the world in all generations of it , i. e. all the time of the world together , from the time spoken of to the end of it , he uses the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c and that not onely in that 28. of Mat. 20. but also in many other places , as Iohn 9.32 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 3.21 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the beginning of the world , or from the beginning of time 2 Cor. 4.4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the God of this world , yea and of the very same Evangelist , yea I shall shew you no lesse then three or four places in Mathew , in every of which I am confident your very selves shall say is not meant the end of that age , that then was , but absolutely the very end of this world it self , wherein we yet are , which yet draws very neer to an end , in every of which places yet there 's no other phrase but the same that is used Mat. 28.20 . to expresse it by viz. the end of the world , yea the very same greek phrase , which is surely enough ( if very common sense and reason did not also preach it ) to evince that , and no other to be the sense in Mat. 28.20 . those places are Mat. 13.39 . the harvest is the end of the world v. 40. as the tares are gathered into the fire , so shall it be at the end of the world , v. 49. so shall it be at the end of the world , Mat. 24.3 . Lord what shall be the signs of thy coming , and of the end of the world ; I suppose no man that is well in his wits , will say of any of these four places that they signifie the end of that age or generation onely , or any other then the time of Christs second coming , which is yet to come , and when it comes shall put a period to this old world , wherein unrighteousnesse yet dwells , and begin the new wherein dwelleth righteousnesse : ( and as for them that say he is already come the second time , and with that coming that is enqui●ed after , Mat. 24.3 . much more the rabble of that ruder sort of Ranters ▪ and ungodly Scoffers of the last times spoken of 2 Pet. 4.5 . that are willingly ignorant , because of the tediousnesse of that thought to them , that there is any more coming of Christ at all , some of which also deny that there was any Christ , or any first coming of such a one at all ) I deem none of that deep dotage of the one , nor of those divellish dreams of the other worth disproving : ) neverthelesse there 's no other Greek phrase used all along but the same that is Mat. 28.20 . which is rendred even to the end of the world : viz. m wheras therefore some say if water baptism were commanded by Christ as his baptism , t was but for that age or generation , wherein the Apostles lived ( and to say nothing of the whimfical uncertainties that are among them that deny water baptism , whose witnesse of it hangs not together , some saying t was Iohns onely , and never commanded by Christ , and that t was to end in Christ crucified , some yielding that t was commanded by Christ , and practised after his resurrection onely to do honour a little to Iohns ministry , and not disparage it by too sudden abolition , some that it was prest by Christ , and p●eacht by the Apostles as his , but to last onely for that generation , and then of right to end , some that it lasted de jure till the treading down , which was more then one or two ages after that , and then it was never to be raised , as if mens might destroyed the right of it , whose folly I shall shew more anon ) I still contrariwise assert , that t was of right to stand to the end , and though foretold that it should cease , and all other services , yet but for the term of 42 moneths only , and then to rise again Rev. 11.1 . Ranterist . You tell us much of Christs sending , and commissionating his disciples to baptize all nations , but that seems not to me to be true , because the Apostle Paul the great Doctor of the Gentil●s , who was sent to preach the Gospel , and throwly to convert men Act. 26.17 , 18. and whose indeavour was to present men perfect in Christ Iesus Col. 1.29 . doth notwithstanding openly affirm , that he was not sent to baptize 1 Cor. 1.17 . making that the ground of his giving thanks to God for his baptizing of none but Crispus , and Gaius , and the houshold of Stephanus : but had the Apostle been sent to baptize , though not chiefly , it would have been his duty so to do , and consequently he should give thanks to God for omitting a part of his duty which is absurd . Baptist. By that expression of Paul viz. Christ sent me not to baptize , but preach the Gospell the latter clause of which as having weight in it , I suppose you willingly leave out , he cannot rationally be understood to mean thus , viz. that the Gosspel he preached had not baptism enjoined to be preached , and practised as an inseperable companion of it ( for t is undoubtedly apparent by what is said above that baptism and teaching , baptism and faith , baptism and repentance were ever preached and practised both together ) but that Christ did not enjoin him absolutely to the actual dispensing of the ordinance of water baptism alwaies with his own hands , but to preach the Gospel ( mark that ) to preach the Gospel , i. e the baptism of faith and repentance for remission of sins , and to see that the thing were done either by himself or some other , when persons believed , but not to baptize necessarily in his own person , so but that the opus operatum , i. e. the work it self might be aswel done per alios , if not per se , even as well by the hands of any one , as his own : and so indeed it might , for whereas in these daies there is such ado , and such stumbles in the hearts of many about a right administrator of baptism , i. e. that may actually with his own hand dispense it , as if he must be meliori luto some extraordinary kind of person , of better mould then other men , some strange man , or miracle worker or other , * yet there is nothing more clear then this viz. that the bare administration of it , being something a more servile work then ordinary , might be done , and was of old ( and why not now I know not ) by the hands of any , at least any gifted he disciple : neither do I find , but that people are minded willingly many times to puzzle and wind themselves off from submitting to the administration of that dispised and to the flesh unpleasing service of baptism , though convinced that t is their duty , by pleading that they cannot find no fit administrator , * that the word speaks one tittle about the quality of the administrator , but onely of our submission , ex officio , to the administration : it s said by way of narration they were baptized in Iordan Matth. 3. when they believed they were baptized Act. 8 . 12.-10.15.33.18 8. and by way of precept repent and be baptized Act. 2.39 . arise and be baptized Act. 22.16 . and by way of promise he that believeth and is baptized , in the passive still , shall be saved : but never required by whom in particular the thing shall be done , so as to say repent and let such , or such a one baptize you , as if we should be better in having it from some hands rather then from others : neither doth the efficacy of baptism to us depend one straw upon the quality of the person administring be it Paul , Apollos or Cephas , or any other disciple inferiour to them in capacity or office , as Ananias or Philip , but upon the quality of the person or subject to whom it s administred , which if it be a person professing to repent and believe , and so doing also as he professes , it matters not so much who does it , so the thing be done : nay the validity of the baptism depends as not upon any other qualifications of the person baptizing , so not on his being baptized , or not baptized himself , that does it , specially in such a case or juncture wherein at first , or after long neglect of it , there 's none but unbaptized persons to begin it * nor yet do I find , but that in the primitive times the simple act of baptizing the believers when once converted was any other but an act so inferiour , servile and subservient to that of preaching the gospel , of preaching repentance , faith , and baptism in Christs name for remission of sins in order to conversion , which more specially belonged to the messenger-sh●p , that it was ( unlesse any desired the Apostles to do it themselves , or when the multitudes to be baptized were so great that t was fit that every he disciple , that had two hands , as I may say , should be assistant ) committed mostly to more inferior persons , common disciples , who as they might baptize , and preach too occasionally , so when any were converted by either themselves or the Apostles , did attend more to the bare act of dispensation then the Apostles did : we cannot think that Peter himself , nor the eleven did baptize all the three thousand without the hands of many other of the 120 to help at least , though in that case the Apostles baptized some also t is like . Moreover we see Philip baptized the Samaritans and the honourable Eunuch , yet , though an occasional preacher of the Gospel , he did it in the capacity of adisciple only , for his deaconship did not make him ere the fitter to baptize : and Ananias baptized Paul , who is stiled but a certain disciple : and the rest of the disciples that together with Philip were scattered abroad by the persecution that arose about Steven went every where , even as far as Antioch preaching the Lord Jesus , and turned many unto the Lord Act. 11.19 . to the end , and baptized them surely as Philip did , for that businesse was the foundation of the famous Church at Antioch , before any such great administrators as Apostles came neer them , for though Barnabas , who together with Paul was sent forth afterward from that Church with prayer and laying on of hands , from which time they both were visibly , and in foro Ecclesiae Apostles , and were so called and not before Act. 13 . 3-14.14 . was sent to confirm and comfort them , and exhorted them to continue in that faith which they were baptized into before ; yet he was but in the capacity of a teaching disciple only yet , and not an Apostle : nor do I believe that Peter baptized them with his own hands Acts 10 ▪ but by some of them that came with him from Ioppa , only he bid it should be done , as that which no body could forbid , and commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord , but by whom t was done we know not . The father sent Christ to baptize , i. e. to give order for the baptizing of the disciples he should make , or else he could not be truly said both to baptize , and yet also to speak and do no more then the Father that sent him gave command for , as he is Ioh. 3.22.4.1.12.49.40 . and yet in another sense it may be said Christ was not sent to baptize i. e. personally to dispense the ordinance it self , for if he had been sent to baptize with his own hands he had not fulfilled his message , for howbeit it s said he baptized more then Iohn , yet he himself dipenst baptism to none with his own hands , Iohn 4.1.2 . but by the hands of his disciples . When therefore Paul saies he was not sent to baptize , he means not that baptism was none of those things he had in commission to meddle with ( for had it been so , he had meddled beyond his commission in baptizing those few he did baptize with his own hands , which were absurd to think ) but that he had not such a positive command to dispense it after he had preacht the Gospel to conversion so himself , but that others even inferior persons might baptize the disciples of his converting as well as himself : he means not that baptism , was no part of his message , which he received in charge from God to deliver and declare among men as his will ( for he saies God sent him to preach it , not to baptize but to preach the Gospel saith he , and what was that but the Gospel of repentance and baptism , the baptism of faith , and repentance for remission of sins among the nations ) but that there was no necessity that himself should administer it , when it might be done by others . not that t was not needful to be done , but that t was needlesse he personally should dispense it , so it might be done by another . Neither doth Paul make that the ground of his giving of thanks to God that no more but Crispus and G●us , and the houshold of Stephanus &c. were baptized ( for then he had thankt God that the Corinthians had most of them neglected their duty in that point of baptism , which its evident he preacht among them as well as faith , or else sure none of them at all would have submitted , Act. 18.8 . but that he himself had with his own hands baptized but some of them , least ( perceiving what a foolish dotage on his person was in the hearts of many of them ) any of them , at least his party ( for some doted too much on Paul , some on Apollos , some on Cephas i. e. Peter ) should either think the better of their baptism as long as they lived , because he dispenst it , or else think the worse of him for it , i. e. that he had baptized in his own name : this is the clear sense in which Paul speaks and not the other , 1 Cor. 1.14.15.16.17 . viz. that no more then such and such were baptized by his hands , not that no more then such and such of them ( for they were all baptized by one or other ) were baptized at all ; for that many more then those he there names as baptized by him , were baptized by one or other ( for all Crispus's house , and many more of the Corinthians besides Crispus's his own person , whom onely with Gaius and Stephanus his house , he here names , believed and were baptized as well as he and they ) is evident Act. 18.8 . yea verily and elsewhere that all the Corinthians were baptized , for 1 Cor. 1.13 . Paul speaking to the whole Church of Corinth ( none excluded ) saith thus were ye i. e. ye O Corinthians , that were all baptized , baptized in the name of Paul ? and 1 Cor. 12.13 . speaking to and of the whole Church again , together with himself , he saies , we are all baptized into one body , and have been all made i. e. in the supper , to drink into one spirit : all the body of them therefore were baptized . Ranterist . It appears that some of the believing Romans , who were beloved of God and called to be Saints Rom. 1.11 . and who had from their hearts obeyed the form of doctrine delivered unto them Rom. 6.3 . were neverthelesse unbaptized , as many of us as have been baptized into Christ , &c. which words plainly intimate , that some of them were not baptized , see Ioh. 1.12 . to as many as came to him gave he power , these words plainly intimate that some of these did not receive Christ , as appeareth by the words immediately foregoing , it s also evident that some of the Church of the Galatians were not baptized , for the same expression is used concerning them , Gal. 3.27 . from which two instances it is apparent , that baptism is neither necessary to make a Saint , or to render him capable of Church-fellowship . Baptist. [ As many as ] is a phrase that where it s used doth not alwayes , nay doth never of it self necessarily expresse and imply [ not all ] or [ but some onely ] of the things or persons spoken of in the words that border about it , but as it may happen pro re substrata , according to the nature of the matter in hand , and according as the sense thereof is manifest by the foregoing and following sentences expressing or implying it ; so that sometimes you shall find it signifying , but some onely or a part , exclusively of others or the rest of the body spoken to , or spoken of thereabout , and sometimes no lesse then the whole of it , neither is it apparent whether [ a ] or but [ some onely ] is the sense of this term [ as many as ] where ere t is used , but as t is made appear by the context , or some circumstances in it , and not a jot lesse then this is said by your self in that very objection of yours I am now answering to , for of Iohn 1.12 . as many as received him , to them gave he power , these words plainly intimate ( say you ) that some of them , i. e. the Jews whom its said he came to , did not receive Christ , and for my part I grant they do so signfie in that place : but why ? or how doth it appear that they must needs signifie there that but some of the Jews received him . It appeareth not by any usuall or constant sense of the words as many as , as if they alwayes sounded forth but some , and never all of such or such subjects as are spoken of , but it appeareth ( say you ) by the words immediately foregoing : in which ve●ily you say right , for the words foregoing do plainly shew what the sense of these words As many as is in this Scripture , for forasmuch as it s said plainly above , that he came to his own , and his own received him not i. e. for the generality of them rejected him , therefore it s undeniably evident that here the words , as many as received him , do intimate that some did not receceive him ; but if you should take these words , as many as received him abstract from what 's said above viz. that his own , for the most part did not receive him , then they were not necessarily to be so understood , neither could they simply of themselves intimate so much : and as these words as many as , considered abstractively from the context or speeches adjacent , are not of themselves termes so necessarily exclusive of some , as they are conclusive of some , so considered in a right reference to the rest of the words preceding and succeeding ▪ among which they have their place , they will be found sometimes conclusive of no lesse then all those persons or things there spoken of , e. g. if I were speaking of the whole company of men in the great ship or Royal Soveraign ( as Paul does to the whole Church at Galatia ) and say , you are all in a pretty safe condition , for as many of you have been admitted into that strong ship cannot likely be sunk : does not the word as many of you signifie all the men he speaks to , even the whole company of them that are in the ship , and not some of them onely ? so and no otherwise is it to be understood in these two Scriptures , viz. Rom. 6.2 . Gal. 3.27 . where you would needs have these words viz. as many of us , and as many of you as were , as have been baptized into Christ , necessarily to intimate no more but that onely some of the believing Romans , and some of the Galatians were baptized , and to be conclusive of some in each of these two churches , and exclusive of the rest , even of them , as being not baptized , whereas there is nothing in the world more plain then this , that these words Rom. 6. as many of us Gal. 3. as many of you , as have been baptized &c. if considered with that due relation they bear , and stand in to the words foregoing or following , do intimate to us that the whole Church of the Romans , that were to reckon on themselves as dead to sin , and bound to live to it no longer , ( and that certainly was no lesse then the whole ) were baptized , and that all the Churches in Galatia , or all the believers among the Galatians were baptized . Yea if the scope of the Apostle Paul in both the places be observed , we shall find that he makes this no other then an argument , and uses it as a certain medium or motive whereby to perswade the Romans that they were all to dy to sin ; and now to live to it no longer , and to prove the Galatians , even all of them , to be , visibly to us at least , the sons of God by faith in Christ , because they were all of them baptized into Christ , and thereby had visibly put him on . First take notice that the businesse he would perswade the whole Church at Rome to , and prove to be the duty of them all is this , that they should now dy to sin , have no more to do with sin , and live to God , now how does he prove that , and go about to perswade them to it ? which is his businesse throwout that whole chapter Rom. 6. no otherway ( as I find ) but by imminding them of it , that by their being buried with Christ in baptism this not only was signifyed to them , but also became the duty of them all , and that so strictly that howbeit before not so obliged , yet from thenceforth they must crucify the old man , and utterly abolish the body of sin , and live to righteousnesse : what ? shall we ( saith he , for so his sense is ) continue in sin , i. e. we that are dead to it , and have been all baptized into Christ in token of it ? God forbid : know ye not that every one that 's baptized into Christ , is baptized into his death ? yea therfore t is that we , i. e. all we still , himself , and the whole Church to whom he writes , are buryed with Christ in baptism into death &c. to shew that as Christ dyed , and rose again , so we also should walk in newnesse of life , for if we , i. e. all we have been planted together i. e. in baptism the lively ●esemblance of it , into the likenesse of his death , we shall be also in the likenesse of his resurrection , &c and so he goes on moving them all now to lead a new life , and to be servants to righteousnesse by the consideration of the great engagements to Godward that lay upon them all since such time as they were baptized : and forasmuch as you say they had all obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine delivered unto them you therein contradict your self , and confesse no lesse then we assert viz. that they were all baptized : for that form of doctrine that was at first delivered to them was the form of doctrine spoken of Heb. 6.1 , 2. even the six first principles of the oracles of God , of the doctrine of Christ , which as they are here called a form of doctrine so there are called the foundation or ABC of a Christian , and of the Church , as also Eph. 2 20. the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles , i. e. the first doctrine of Christ , on which they built the Church , of which baptism is there said to be a part : yea and that very phrase of Paul Rom. 6.17 . viz. ye were the servants of sin , but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine , which was delivered to you , is no other then a further prosecution , and inculcation of the former argument upon the whole Church of the Romans still , and is as much as if the had said ye were once , i. e. before your baptism the Servants of sin , and then nothing but sin could be expected from you , but now the case is otherwise , you have all obeyed the form of doctrine delivered , i. e. have professed your repentance from dead works and faith , and been baptized into Christ , and thereby listed your selves visibly under him as his Souldiers , and are hereby become Servants to righteousnesse , therefore now you must not let sin have dominion over you : This verily is the very meaning of the Apostle in the whole chapter , yea and in those very words know you not that as many of us as have been baptized ? viz. not to have us suppose that but some of them had been baptized , but to give them to understand that as all of them had been baptized , so as many as are baptized into Christ are baptized into his death , in token of it , that they should now all become new creatures : if we speak his mind in a Syllogistical form it runs thus viz. As many of us as are baptized must know this that we are baptized into Christs death , and therefore must dy to sin and live holily . But we have been all baptized or buried with Christ in baptism into his death . Therefore we must all dy to sin and live holily . If this were not his sense , but we must take the words as many of us as have been baptized to be conclusive of himself , and but some of that Church , and exclusive of the rest of them as to baptism , then I testify they are much more exclusive of many of the● from that duty of dying to sin , which he there presses upon the whole Church , by the consideration of their being baptized : yea if that phrase as many of us as have been baptized doth intimate to us that not all , but some only of the believing Rom● had bin baptizd , then it must needs intimate to us that not all but some of the believing Rom● were engaged by their baptism , and pressed by Paul in that chap. from the consideration of their death , and burial with Christ in baptism , to dy to sin and live to righteousnesse , which no rational man can imagine , but rather as they were all urged by an Argument drawn from their baptism to live to God , so they had assuredly been all of them baptized . And the same may be said of that same phrase as t is used to the Galatians Gal. 3. to whom Pauls drift was to prove what he had said of them all in the verse above v. 26. viz. that they were all the children of God by faith in Christ : and how doth he prove it that they were so ? no otherwise but by this Medium , viz. that they had been all baptized : you are all the children of God by faith in Christ , for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have visibly put him on , and thereby declared you have faith in him , which having , you are the children of God : in form his Argument runs thus , viz. As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ , and are thereby apparently declared to be the children of God by faith in him . But you have been all baptized into Christ &c. Ergo , &c. This must needs be his sense here too , or else if the term as many of you as have been baptized must not be taken as conclusive of all the Galatians to whom he writes , but exclusive of some of them from baptism , it must be exclusive of the same persons from being proved by Pauls Argument drawn from their baptism to to be the children of God : as many as received him to them gave he power to be come the Sons of God , is as much as to say , he gave power to become the sons of God to no more then such as received him : so as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ , and are thereby visibly declared to be the children of God by faith in him , though it do not signify that all the Galatians had not been baptized , but some of them onely , yet it signifies this however that no more then such as had been baptized into Christ , had put him on and were thereby declared to be Gods children , and consequently that if but some of the Galatians were baptized , but some of them onely appeared to be Gods children : which were absurd to think and would render Paul as contradictory to himself in the verse above , where he saies ye are all the children of God , so very ridiculous in his Argument ; and render his proof as pedling as if he had said thus by way of position , viz. you are all , even every one of you , the children of God , and then by way of proof thus , viz. for some of you have been baptized , and by that baptism of yours are declared so to be , though the rest are not . Ranterist . You make baptism I perceive very needfull but the Apostle Peter who very well understood the Commission given to him and the rest of his fellow Apostles Matth. 28 , 29 , 20. Mark 16.15.16 . when he speaketh of the baptism that saveth 1 Pet. 3.21 . least any should think that he meant the baptism of water , whereof we speak , by which the filth of the body is put away , he excludeth the putting away the filth of the flesh , and places baptism wholly in the answer of a good conscience towards God , neither can any man truely say that by putting away of the filth of the flesh is here to be understood the putting away of the ●ilthy works of the flesh for then could it neither be excluded from salvation , which is promised them which mortify the deeds of the flesh , but walk after the spirit Rom. 8.1.17 . nor opposed to the answer of a good conscience , which springs from the putting away of dead works , such as the works of the flesh are , for he only is truly said to have a good conscience , who is not conscious to himself of walking according to the flesh . Baptist. That by the words putting away the filth of the flesh , is meant that bare outward dispensation of water I freely do , and every one must grant , and therefore what is spoken by you in proof of that might well have been spared : also that the bare submission to that outward dispensation of water is not that , which simply of it self , and abstract from the inward i. e. the answer of a good conscience doth save us , must needs be granted also : but what of this ? will it therefore follow that it is to be omitted , and not made use of at all ? in reason surely it cannot be so assertter : for as the bare outward hearing of the word without doing it , will do us no good but rather hurt , & yet that outward hearing is an ordinance at no hand to be neglected , but necessarily to be used in order to the doing of the word , without which we had better never hear , for we shall not save , but deceive our own souls Iam. 1.22 . and shall perish in the end Mat. 7.26 . and as bare outward fellowship in breaking of bread is so far from saving , that we eat and drink judgement to our selves unlesse withall we discern the Lords body , and be pattakers of the thing signified , and yet that outward service is needful to be performed : so though water baptism doth not save us ex opero operato , and unlesse it be answered within by the answer of a good conscience , yet what consequence is there from hence that it need not be done at all ? neither doth Peter altogether exclude the putting away the filth of the flesh , as not to be practised , and place the business of baptism wholly in the answer of a good conscience , as you here say he doth , but rather places the baptism that saves in both these * , not in either without the other , yea in that he saies thus , baptism doth also now save us , not the putting away the filth of the flesh , but the answer of a good conscience , he includes the baptism with water , as that , which is to be done , but not to be rested in as available to salvation , without the other . Ranterist . There is no man sent by Christ to baptize , so that were I never so willing to be baptized , yet there is none to baptize me : for though it should be granted , which neverthelesse is false , and cannot be evinced out of the Scripture , that the Apostles were sent to baptize with water , yet this doth not warrant others to do so likewise , unlesse they can prove that whatsoever was spoken to the Apostles was spoken to them , and by this account they must go into all Nations , and make them disciples having first stayed at Ierusalem till they have been indued with power from on high , for both things are injoined to the Apostles by Christ. Baptist. That the Apostles were not sent to baptize in water in such a sense as Paul saies 1 Cor. 1. Christ sent not him to baptize in i. e. to dispense that ordinance necessarily with their own hands , so but that when they had preacht and converted persons to the faith , others might help ●o administer it , I granted above , but that they were not sent to preach the Gospel i. e. the baptism of faith and repentance for remission of sins among all Nations , as far as they were capable , and that baptism in water was not a part of that Gospel ministration , which was committed to them , to command all Nations to observe , and to see dispensed , on all that should be discipled therein , this I utterly deny , and the contrary to it is so clearly evinced in the word , that he that runs may read it , for either Christ commanded them Mat. 28. to teach baptizing , not with the spirit , but in water , or else Peter miserably mistook his commission , that in obedience thereto presses 1000● of people at once , enquiring what they should do , to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus , promising onely , that so doing they should , not from him surely , but from Christ receive the holy spirit , Act. 2.39 . and also concerning a people , that were already baptized with the spirit , asks who can forbid water why these may not be baptized ? commanding them , who were ready to hear no more then what was commanded him of God to deliver to them , Act. 10.23 . to be baptized in the name of the Lord : and if by the Apostles you mean the eleven onely , that were within hearing , when Christ spake , as t is to him , that is not afraid of cold water , undoubtedly true , that these were , so as undeniable it is that others were sent to baptize in water as well as they viz. Philip that baptized the Samaritans , and Eunuch , Paul that baptized so many of the Corinthians as he did , and Ananias that baptized him , or else they made and preacht a Gospel of their own heads , another Gospel , and not Christs , which if they did , they made more hast then good speed to themselves , for such as teach for doctrines of Christ their own traditions , and run before they are sent , do both worship God in vain , and shall neither of them have any thank from him for their labour : and that what was spoken to those 11 Apostles themselves as to the point of baptism , was spoken also to us , even to such in all Nations , as being once discipled are after that enabled from God to preach the Gospel , is no l●sse evident then all the rest Matth. 28.19 . Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you , among which water baptism was one v. 18. and whereas you say upon this account we must go into all nations and make them disciples , who doubts but that t is our duty so to do to the utmost of our power ( and they could do no more ) for that 's commanded , and baptism too , to be observed to the end ; but for their staying at Ierusalem till they were indued with power from on high and beginning first to preach there , that did concern them only as a special circumstance for that time , not pertaining to the substance of the service , nor required of all the Apostles themselves , and administrators of baptism then , ( for if it had Ananias , Philip , Paul began at the wrong end of their businesse , when one of them began to preach the Gospel at Samaria , the other at Damascus , not going up to Ierusalem first Gal. 1.17 . ) and if not of them why it should be of us I know not : Neverthelesse as to the substance of that command I grant that every one is to tarry till he be indued more or lesse with power , i. e. boldnesse , wisdome , knowledge , utterance , resolution , self denyall &c. before he goes out as Christs Messenger to preach to the nations : but being so indued , and furnished must out * ( for ought I know ) among all people , as he hath ability , and occasion beginning at the place where he is , and proceeding to spread the Gospel afar off , if he find not work enough neerer home . Ranterist : Could it be proved , as it cannot , that there are some sent to baptize yet even then will it not follow that I , and such as I am ought to be baptized by them , for we do not read that any of the Apostles , or Apostolike men did ever baptize any but such as are newly converted to the Christian Religion , but I and such as I am have from our infancy imbraced the Christian Religion , and no other , now if our Adversaries did rightly infer that because there is neither precept nor example in Scripture , for baptizing of infants therefore it is a needlesse thing , in like manner I may as tru●y conclude , for asmuch as their is neither precept nor example in Scripture for baptizing such as have been bred up in the Christian Religion and never professed any other , I and su●h as I am have no need at all to be baptized . Baptist. That some are sent to baptize is proved above , and sure enough , if it be ( as we see t is Act. 2 . 39-10.47 , 48. mens duty to be baptizd , or else Christ hath required a service of every man , and that sub poenâ too * , and yet though never so willing to be baptized , left them in no possible capacity to perform it for want of provision of administrators : but that you and such as you are , yea and that though some are sent to baptize , have such a Supersedeas from being baptized as you pretend to be vouchsafed you by Christ Jesus , because you have been long of it , and been bred up in the Christian Religion is such a strange piece of businesse as I know not in any wise what to make of , who , in foro hominum , & ecclesiae , at least , take baptism to be the visible badge that so distinguishes between those that are of the Christian Religion , and other people , that who so shall say he is of the Christian religion , and yet never was , nor will be baptized , must excuse me if , according to the tenor of Christs Testament , I own him not as yet to be a Christian. What you call the Christian Religion , in which you say you were bred up , I know not : if you mean the doctrines of faith , repentance , and good manners , alone as yet , and abstract from baptism , this ( whether it be a great while , or but a little while since you began to put it in practise , the matter is much at one , for degrees , as to the length or shortnesse of the time since we were converted , do not vary the nature of the case ) this I say is so far from exempting , that t is the onely thing ingaging you to baptism , and howbeit you say there is neither ( as I am sure there is not for baptizing infants ) yet you cannot possibly , but see that there is both president , and precept for the baptizing of all believers , and of all in any Nations that are discipled : so that if you have been converted not lately but long ago , and remained till now unbaptized , you have so much the more need to hasten to it , and instead of being held excused from now doing it at all , because you did it not when first you should , to be ex●uscitated in the words of Ananias to Paul saying , and now why tarriest thou ? arise and be baptized , and wash away thy sins , calling on the name of the Lord. But if by the Christian Religion , which you say you were bred up in , you mean either that Christian Religion of the Rantizer that teaches men to change the ordinances of Christ , that of baptism specially , as to its form and subject , and to make void his command through his tradition of a new baptism to all , or that Christian Religion of the Ranter that so rebells against that law of Christ that he will give way to have now no water baptism at all , these two Religions , as Christian as you count and call them , are both but Anti-christian with me . Ranterist . You make such a deal of do about water baptism as so needful , that there may be no Church-fellowship held without it , but for ought I see yet t is a matter of no such weight , but that we may serve God as acceptably to the full without it , for in Christ Iesus neither circumcision availeth any thing , nor uncircumcision , but faith , which worketh by love Gal. 5.9 . circumcision is nothing , and uncircumcision is nothing , but the keeping the commandaments of God 1 Cor. 7.19 . Baptist. T is true , that when Paul spake this , which was when there was an abolition of circumcision , so far as was consistent with the Jewes ability to bear it , and when it was now de jure to grow out of date , then circumcision was nothing , and uncircumcision nothing , so that t was altogether needlesse to be circumcised , but as nothing as it is now , yet so something was it once , when that testament it was the sign of stood , that every soul , of whom it was then required , that was not circumcised was to be cut off from having fellowship with that Church and people , and as nothing as this baptism or no baptism is with you now , yet no lesse then this at least must we say of the unbaptized , that every soul that shall refuse to be baptized , is to have no fellowship with Christs Church , and people : Acts 2.41.42 . Secondly , as nothing as circumcision , and uncircumcision , baptism or no baptism are with you , yet faith which worketh by love is something , as Paul himself also doth seem to hint , and the keeping of the commandements of God , which love to the Lord Jesus he that saies he can expresse without keeping his commandements , among which baptism in water is not the least , and without counting those commands of his not too grievous to submit to , makes either Christ a lyar , or elle himself , Ioh. 14.23 . 1 Iohn 2.4.5 . 1 Iohn 5.2.3 . Thus farre concerning water baptism , to which in the primitive times there were , and in all times also , wherein it is or shall be truly dispenst , and sincerely submitted to , there assuredly are , or will be two other baptisms concomitant , viz. First , a baptism with sufferings . Secondly , a baptism with the holy spirit , to support under those sufferings in order to the being baptized with the last of which baptisms , there was then an ordinance , or administration of Christ viz. prayer and laying on of hands , which was practised toward all believers after baptism in water , which as it was kept on foot from the Apostles daies and downward among the Churches of Christ in after ages , and is , as to the substance of the service , kept on with far lesse corruption and alteration , then that which yet cleaves to their baptism , among all but the Presbyterian part of the national priesthood and people , so that it is of right to be used in order to the self same end , and in the self same manner now as then it was , because the present use , and practise thereof is so openly ( not to say obstinately ) denied not onely by the Ranter , who rases the whole foundation , and the Presby●erian and Independent Rantizer , who rase down that , or at least do not raise it , but also by several societies of persons baptized , who to the great grief of such congregations as own the whole truth , and are built upon the whole foundation or beginning doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles , do yet ignorantly withstand it , and some , even of these , bitterly band against it . I shall the Lord assisting in all possible meeknesse , brevity , and plainnesse make good unto them ; and that in this one single long-winded syllogism onely ( least the presse which now presses on apace after me , and is at the very heels of me all along at my penning of this whole businesse called Anti-ranterism , should overtake me , and stand still for want of such supply as it expects hourly from me , least also I out run too much ( as I have almost done already ) the bounds prefixed to this interposed Treatise ) the Minor proposition of which argument being proved , and cleared from those clouds of objection wherewith some strive to darken it , will both evince and evidence the continuance of that service also in its right use to this day so sufficiently , that howbeit much more might be spoken , yet no more shall at this time at least by me . Whatsoever was in the primitive times taught , practised , dispensed or submitted to , own'd or observed as a command of Christ , as one of the oracles or holy things of God , as a part of that foundation on which the true visible Church is built , as one of the very principles of the doctrine of Christ , as a practical part of the Law , Will , and Testament of Christ concerning them in order to their receiving the holy spirit of promise according to the promise , at their first beginning to be disciples , at or about the time of their baptism and before actual fellowship in the visible Church , in all the Churches , and among all baptized believers , even men and women without exception of any , without the least hint of any limitation of it to those times onely , and without the least intimation to us in the word of Christ that t was his will it should then cease , and hath also plain injunction form Christ for its continuance , for its being taught to , and observed by the disciples , that should be successively in all the world through all nations and generations of it to the end , and hath also the same ends , grounds and reasons why it was to be used continuing still to this day as much as then , is certinly in the same manner , as then , to be observed to this very day . But on this wise is that service of prayer and laying on of hands , not onely on officers , Deacons , Elders , messengers in order to their receiving of the holy spirit to impower them in a fuller measure for those severall functions , but also on common disciples men and women in order to their receiving the holy spirit in such manner and measure as Christ Iesus shall be pleased to impart it in , to comfort them under sufferings , and make them fit for fellowship in the body or visible Church . Therefore that service of laying on of hands with prayer on common disciples , men and women , as well as that on officers in order to their offices , is now to be observed as in former daies . The first proposition is so undoubtedly true , that if any should be so irrational as to deny it , ( as I judge none will , but the Rakesham Ranter that regards neither God nor devil , and reckons on all Christs commands as not worth a rush ) I shall be more rationall then to believe him to be a man fit to reason with , or that it can be to any purpose in never so reasonable a manner to bespeak him . As for the Minor wherein t is affirmed that the businesse of prayer and laying on of hands after baptism in water upon every disciple man or woman is such as was taught , practised , dispensed , submitted to , ownd , and observed as an ordinance , and command of Christ &c. as it followes in the Major , that remains yet to be cleared , which by that time I shall have done in each of those particulars that are there asserted of it , either expressely , or by such plain and legitimate deductions , and inferences from the Scripture as may be justly satisfactory to any sincere souls that love truth , and allow others to draw inferences from the word ( without which who can prove that he shall be saved ? * ) as well as themselves , and by discovering the weaknesse of such exceptions as are ordinarily made against the present use of this rite or service , t wil be more then high time for me to quit this subject also : whereas therfore contrary to what is asserted in the very front of the foregoing argument , viz. that laying on of hands was taught in the primitive times , I find it intimated to us by way of query , that some , who even therefore as well as for other reasons by them rendred cannot practise it , are in no wise satisfied that such a thing as laying on of hands on all baptized believers , was ever taught by either Christ or his Apostles ; * in proof of this that laying on of hands was taught , I send such as doubt of it first to the name of doctrine of Christ , by which in common together with the other five principles of it , it is denominated Heb. 6.1.2 . leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ , not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works , and of faith towards God , and of the doctrine of baptisms and of laying on of hands , which denomination of doctrine of Christ could not possibly belong to it properly , but that it was somewhere , or at sometime or other taught by either Christ or his Apostles or disciples , in the judgement of any that are but so far learned as to know whence the word doctrine is derived , which , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the greek is of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so is of doceo to teach : but secondly , whereas t is desired that we should ( if we know of any ) direct to some place of Scripture , where ever Christ , or any of his Apostles or disciples did preach this doctrine that all baptized believers ought to practise or submit unto laying on of hands , for my own part I shall direct the enquirers to several Scriptures , in one of which as it is expresse enough , so in the rest its plain enough to such as are not more resolved to proceed in propounding questions , then , when they are answered to be resolved , that some or other of the Apostles or disciples of Christ did teach and preach that doctrine : the first of these is Heb. 5.12 . where to that Church of the Hebrews or Iews the very platform to all the rest , which , ( as to its more compleat outward form and order , and that denomination of the Church , to which God added dayly such as should be saved , ) had its first being , and beginning under Peters teaching Act. 2. t is said thus viz. whereas for the time ye ought to be teachers , ye have need to be taught again , which be the first principles of the oracles of God. Where note first from the words taught again , that they were taught once before all the principles of the doctrine of Christ , whereof this laying on of hands is said to be one : and not only so , but secondly , from these words you ought to be teachers , that by this time they should have been of ability to teach these principles to others , which also shews that these principles ought all along still to be taught : Moreover if it be queried where or by whom these Hebrewes were at first taught this A B C , these principles of the oracles of God there spoken of , is it not as clear as the sun to any serious , understanding , considerate spirit that it was by Peter at Ierusalem in his first preaching there in obedience to Christs commission , Mat. 28. after power was come upon him from on high , in Act. 2. which I direct to as a second place wherein we may find it preached ? did not Peter there lay this foundation of the principles of the doctrine of Christ among them in preaching , as they did themselves in practising , Heb. 6 ▪ 2. and howbeit the whole form of the doctrine he there delivered is not set down , as none of the doctrine that Philip preacht at Samaria is , nor of that Paul preacht at Philippi Act. 16.14 . nor at Corinth Act. 18.8 . yet is it not by sundry passages as evident that he taught that principle of laying on of hands among all the rest , as it is ( and how evident that is , is shewed above ) that they in those other places preached baptism ? shall we think that Peter taught the principles of the doctrine of Christ , all which he was to lay as one foundation among them , by the halves ? did he build them upon one part of the foundation , and not on the other part ? did he constitute them partly upon it , and partly beside it ? did he teach them all the rest of the principles ( every of which its said Heb. 5.12 . they had been taught ) viz. faith , repentance , baptism , resurrection , and judgement , and did he leave out that one onely of laying on of hands , specially since it s said that with many other words he exhorted that people , who are said there also to continue in the Apostles doctrine ? what man that devotes himself to the comparing of Scripture with Scripture can imagine it ? and if not , why not be satisfied that it was preacht by some at least of Christs Apostles to all baptized believers ? A third Scripture I direct the inquirers unto , is Act. 8.5.12.14.15.16.17 . whence first its evident from the Apostles administring , and the Samaritans submission to it , that the doctrine in the purport and tendency of it , was first declared , ( unlesse we shall judge the Saints at Samaria were such idiots as to act by implicit faith , as men were not to do , but by comparison of what they said with the Scriptures , under the ministry of the Apostles themselves Act. 17.22 . and to yield blind obedience to they knew not what , the Apostles also justifying them in it , which if they did , then you that professe your selves to be yet ignorant in that service , and that you know not the meaning of it may submit to it as safely , though as senslessely , as they , from the hands of such as do ; which yet when all is done I am sure you may not : but Secondly , more evident yet if you weigh some passages of that text it self , the words whereof are on this wise viz. then went Philip down unto Samaria and preached Christ to them , v. 5. and when they believed the things spoken by Philip pertaining to the Kingdom of God , they were baptized both men and women , when they at Ierusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God , they sent unto them Peter and John , who when they were come , prayed for them that they might receive the holy spirit , for as yet he was fallen upon none of them , onely they were baptized in the name of the Lord Iesus , then laid they their hands on them , and they received the holy spirit . It s said that Philip preached Christ , and spoke of the things pertaining to the the Kingdome of God , and that they received the word of God , which they did not surely , so much as to believe what was to be done , till he had preached it , now can any rationall man think , that he preached Christ and the things pertaining to his kingdome , and the word of God , and not preach so much as all the principles of the oracles of God , not so much as all the first Rudiments or whole beginning word of Christ ? but left out imposition of hands onely among all the rest , as none of the word of Christ , nor of the things pertaining to his kingdome as not to be preacht , no not in that juncture wherein immediately after it was to be , and accordingly was , so universally submitted to by them , and dispenst unto them ? or if you say they received not that word of laying on of hands from Philip , but from Peter and Iohn . I answer , t is true practically from the hands of Peter and Iohn dispensing it , but by faith , so as to believe it to be a practicable doctrine that was their duty to own , from the mouth of Philip dispensing the doctrine , of it , or suppose that Philip spake nothing of it till Peter and Iohn came , which is non supponendum , yet is it likely that the Apostles that were sent to them from Ierusalem , though nothing is said of that they said , that therefore they said nothing to them at all ? yea will right reason ever receive this for truth , that the Apostles were sent to Samaria upon the account of some service ( whether solely that of prayer and laying on of hands it matters not so long as that was one part of it at least ) and yet neither acquaint them ( whether before acquainted with it or no ) to what end and purpose they came , and what was the end and purport of that service they onely or mainly came for ? he that can receive this let him receive it , for my part I professe I cannot . A fourth place from whence it is easily gathered that the doctrine of laying on of hands in order to their receiving the holy spirit , was wont to be preached to all baptized believers is Act. 19.1 , 2.3 . where Paul speaking to the whole company of disciples that he found at Ephesus , the number wherof were then but about twelve , among whom the doctrine of laying on of hands in order to the receiving the holy spirit had not been preached at the time of their baptism , seems to reprove and blame the neglect of it , enquiring whether they had not received the holy spirit , supposing surely at least that the promise of it had been to them , and prayer made for them in the usual way , with laying on of hands that they might receive it , but marveiling much that they , being baptized believers , had not been informed about these matters , nor had so much as heard of the holy spirit , have you received the holy ●pirit ? ( saies he ) no nor so much as heard of it , ( say they ) no ? unto what then were you baptized ( saies he ) if at least you have not so much as heard of it ? as who should say , who baptized you I wonder , and did not so much as instruct you about the spirit , nor , laying on their hands , pray for you that you might receive the spirit ? this plainly shewes that by right they should all about the time of their baptism in water have heard of the holy spirit , and in what way it was to have been expected by them , even that of laying on of hands , none of all which they having so much as heard of as yet , Paul therefore after some words of fuller information to them , and such other passages as fell out thereupon laid his hands on them verse 6. in order to their receiving the holy spirit . These Scriptures ( what they are to others I know not ) are to me a cleer , and safe conduct into the belief of this truth , that the doctrine of laying on of hands with prayer in order to receiving the holy spirit , both was in the primitive times , and was to be preached to all baptized believers , as that which was no lesse then their duty to own and submit to have dispensed to them . And as it was so universally taught , and preached , so was it as universally in those times practised , dispensed , submitted to , ownd and observed in all the churches , and among all baptized believers , even men and women without exception : This is evident out of the four forenamed places viz. * in the first of which it is not only expresse that they , i. e. all that Jewish Church had been taught this principle among the rest , but also that it had been practically owned and observed among them as well as all the rest : for as it s said there of all the principles together that these Jewes had need to be taught them again , so that they should not now lay them again , but go on to perfection , which shews that as these principles had been all preacht to them all , so all these Jewes or Hebrews did once lay them all as a foundation at their first beginning to be a Church , and therfore this of laying on of hands among the rest . In the second we read that Paul laid his hands on all the baptized believers that he found at Ephesus , being then no more in number then about 12. speaking ( as it were ) by way of blame , and reproof of those by whom they were baptized , that this was not also done by them at their baptism , in order to their receiving the holy spirit , much more in that they were not so much as informed that there was a holy spirit to be expected by them ver . 32.3 . which may serve also as an Argument to them , that say , as some of the inquirers do , that the reproof of the omission of any service doth evince that that service ought to have been performed , and as an answer also to the fourth question of the abovenamed enquirers with the ground thereof which is this viz. * In the third place we find it most expressely asserted that Peter and Iohn prayed for them that they might receive the holy spirit , and laid their hands on them i. e. all those men and women ( for that 's the only substantive to this pronoun them in that place , of whom it s said before that they were baptized in the name of the Lord Iesus : which word only they were baptized intimates to us thus much also , viz. that though they had submitted so far as to baptism , yet they had not practised all that was to be practised by them , but that some other service was yet behind , which ought to be performed towards them , viz. that of laying on of hands . In the fourth it s asserted also most plainly that all the three thousand believers that were baptized did gladly receive the word , i. e. the word that Peter preacht to them , who exhorted them with many other words then those that are there specified , viz. repentance and baptism , and that they continued in the Apostles doctrine , of which word and doctrine , if we may judge the word or doctrine of Christ & the Apostles to be one and the same ) laying on of hands was part as well as faith , repentance , baptism , resurrection , and judgement , Heb. 6.1.2 . besides , if the word and doctrine of Christ that was preacht and practised at Jerusalem was the self same word and doctrine , that was after preacht and practised at Samaria , then we may safely gather that whatever was preacht and practised by them at Samaria had been preacht and practised by them at Ierusalem before , from whence they came immediately to Samaria , where its easie to be discerned by any but such as will bend their brains to multiply impertinencies , and to make blu●ies to themselves , and others in businesses that are beyond doubt to impartial inquirers , that they laid hands , praying for them that they might receive the holy spirit , on all those believers there that were baptized , whether men or women without exception , if we may as warrantably understand the men and women , that are said to be baptized v. 12. to be the same persons that are said to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus v. 16. and the same persons that are denoted by that pronoun them v. 14.15.16 . as I am sure we cannot warrantably , because not congruously , do otherwise ? for who else can be meant all along but the very same ( and not some of them onely , but even all the same , even the men and women , that are related above to be baptized ? ) for whereas its said ver . 12. when they believed , they were baptized both men and women , and v. 16. that the holy spirit was fallen upon none of them , onely they were baptized , must not they and them there be taken for all those that are said to be baptized above ? and so consequently when it is said ver . 15. that they prayed for them , and ver . 17. that they laid their hands on them , doth not them denote out the very same ? Yet this cannot be digested for truth with some of the inquirers , for t was asserted as his opinion ( the rest assenting to it by their silence ) by one of those with whom we had some discourse at Ely house Ma●ch 27. 1653. ( whether the same be the sense of all those that sent him I know not ) that Peter and Iohn did not with prayer lay hands on all the baptized believers at Samaria , but on the men only , and not on the women . * And whereas in proof of the contrary I asserted that the pronoun them in v. 14.15.16.17 . doth relate to not the men onely , but the men and women , even all those that are said to be baptized , as the adaequate substantive with which it did agree : t was answered by him to this purpose ( a pretty put off I confesse , but nothing to the purpose ) viz. that the Scripture had expressions both particular , indefinite , and universal , that the word them here , as t was not a particular , so t was not an universal ( for then it would have been said all them ) but an indefinit expression , signifying some onely not all , whereby he bewrayed his too little acquaintance with one received rule among the Rationallists , viz. that an indefinite proposition , or expression in a necessary matter is equivalent ever to an universal : howbeit my reply to him then was not so , but on this wise , viz. that if we must take them but indefinitely only , for some and not all the persons or things before spoken of , unlesse that particle all be added to it , then we had consequently no clear command from Matth. 28.19 , 20. to baptize all that are discipled , and converted to the faith , for by the pronoun them , that is there used also , we must not mean all them , but some of them onely in the nations that are discipled , because it s not said all them , but meerly them , but I intreated him from his conscience to tell me whether he did think , that when Christ saies Go teach all nations baptizing them , teaching them , he meant that they should baptize all them , or but some of them only in the nations that were discipled , his return was that if there were not other places that did more clearly prove it that Christ commanded that all should be baptized then Matth 28. he could not see it fully commanded there : and being desired to assign any place , wherein Christ did more universally command baptism then there , he directs us to Luke 7.30 . where it s said the Pharisees rejected the Counsel of God against themselves in not being baptized : whence he gathered that baptism was the Councel , and consequently the commandement of God to all men , because they are here reproved for rejecting it , which if it be a sound Argument to prove baptism to be the command of God to all men , because the pharisees in particular ( for the Pharisees is but a particular expression indigitating one single sort of men among all the rest , and not so much as an indefinit , much lesse an universal ) because I say the Pharisees in particular are reproved for refusing to obey it , how much better may we collect that both baptism , and laying on of hands with prayer for the spirit , are commanded by God to all men , because we find all those , save Simon , ( witnesse his giving them his holy spirit ) recorded as most highly approved of God , that at any time did reject neither , but silently submit themselves both ? Those passages between that my beloved friend , and my self I could not conscientiously neglect to set down , least I should seem to love any man more then the truth , for the sake of which principally , and partly for his also , and theirs he walks with , whom I love in truth , as far as they love the truth , I write this , that he , reviewing here his own empty evasions , may more evidently discern himself to be mistaken in many things , then he may be capable to do in a discourse by word of mouth , and that they remembring , how they in proof of baptism it self to be Christs command to all believers , are necessitated to use such cloudy inferences and deductions , as those above , may excuse us more then many , if not most , of that party do , if in proof of laying on of hands to be the duty of all baptized believers , we take the like liberty to our selves in order to their satisfaction , to use more clear inferences and deductions , then those , out of Scripture , and out of Heb. 6.2 . it self , as t will appear that we do , to reason it self rightly acted in comparing of Scripture with Scripture , which I for my part refer the enquirers unto as the surest rule to try the spirits by , and to try all inferences , or deductions by , because the best of men are liable to mistakes , and sure enough to fall into them , if ceasing to exercise their reason in deducing , inferring , and gathering one thing out of another , they will receive nothing for truth , though otherwise never so plain , even to common sense and reason , unlesse they find it in so many words in Scripture , as t is by us exprest in : and this is all that I shall trouble my self to say in reference to the seventh and eighth questions of the late Enquirers with the grounds thereof , which are laid down in these words . And now further to prove the Minor of the forecited syllogism in some other particulars of it that remain unproved , viz. that laying on of hands was not only taught , and practised , dispenst and submitted to , ownd and observed among all baptized believers in the primitive times , but all this as by command from God. I argue thus viz. Either by command from God or without it ; But neither without nor against command from God , Ergo by it : the consequence of the first proposition is most clear , for whatever Gospel administration was never commanded by God to be dispensed , is practised ( if practised at all ) as a tradition of men , and without , nay against Gods command , whose command it is , * that no man shall presume to teach for doctrines of his the traditions or commandments of men : the Minor is as clear that the Apostles did not teach for doctrines of Christ any traditions of their own , for as Paul who was one of them that practised laying on of hands , saies of himself 1. Cor. 11.23 . that he received from Christ that which he delivered unto the Church at Corinth , so may we say on the behalf of all the rest , as concerning what doctrines they delivered , and dispensations they practised to the Churches : for surely as Christ the great , and immediate messenger from the father could do nothing of himself , was not to do his own will , but the will of his father which sent him , nor to speak or do any thing , but as the father gave him commandement , confessing that even his doctrine was not his own , but his that sent him , x so they that were the great , and immediate messengers from Christ might speak , and do nothing in things pertaining to him , but as God by him gave commandements unto them : * neither were any doctrines they delivered among the Churches their own , nor any other then the doctrines of Christ , whereupon though as Christs doctrine and commandements are called his , because he preacht and gave them from God , and yet were not his own but the fathers , so theirs are called the doctrine and commandements of the Apostles , as they had them immediately from him , yet are they not their own , but the doctrine and comman-of Christ , * and had they done any thing more then they had order for from him , who from him were to give order to the Churches , either in the point of laying on of hands or any thing else , they would surely have heard harshly from him for it , & been reproved by the spirit in the word , but as to this service of prayer and laying on of hands on all baptized believers , in many places he is recorded as approving of them in all they did . Moreover , that laying on of hands was taught , and practised not of their own heads , but ( as t is asserted in the argument ) as a practical part of the Law , will , and Testament of Christ concerning baptized believers , as one of the oracles or holy things of God , as one of the very principles of the doctrine of Christ , as a part of the foundation , or beginning word of Christ ( as well as baptism ) or of the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles , on which the true visible Church is built as upon a certain basis , and from which the whole building growth up an holy temple in the Lord toward perfection , an habitation of God through the spirit , being first fitly framed together by a joint , uniform , visible obedience unto that one whole form of doctrine * whereof , I say this laying on of hands was a part , and was practised at their first beginning to be disciples at or about the time of their baptism , and before actual fellowship in the visible Church , this all is clear enough of it self to him that consults Heb. 5.2.6.1 . considerately comparing them with Eph. 2.20.21.22 . Rom. 6.17 . Act. 2.42.8.12.14.15.16.17.19.2.6 . out of all which places , at least collectively consulted with , we cannot but see that after baptism , and before fellowship in one body , or building in higher things there was this of laying on of hands , practised , owned , observed , as one of the first principles of Gods oracles , of Christs doctrine , Antecedent to fellowship , and laid as a part of that first form of doctrine that was delivered and obeyed ( after obedience to the whole of which they were counted babes in Christ , new born , begotten to him , belonging to him , and in present capacity ( as no fleshly babes are ) to be added and admitted into his Church ) and as one piece of that foundation or word of the beginning of Christ * , on which the Church it self is built , and therefore necessarily precedent among persons to their fellowship together in it , for the foundation must ever be wholly laid even in every part of it ( and therefore why not in laying on of hands ? ) before there can be any firm , or any but a deformed or defective building : no more therefore as unto that : Again that it was dispensed together with prayer for it on all baptized believers in order to their receiving the holy spirit t is not denied by any , for ought I know , as indeed it is undeniable to all , Act. 8.15.16.17.19.2.6 . And further , there is not the least hint of any limitation of that doctrine of laying on of hands on all baptized believers to those times onely , or intimation in the word of Christ that t was his mind there should then be a cessation of it , any more then there is of baptizing all believers , or any other ordinance , or outward administration , or any other of the principles of Christs doctrine , if there be , I desire of the Enquirers , who use inferences themselves , and yet allow not us to speak any thing , as to the continuance of this ordinance , but some expresse text of Scripture , to shew some Scripture ( if they know of any ) that speaks expressely ( or if it be but consequentially , it shall serve my turn ( though from us it will not theirs ) so the consequence be legitimate , and truly rational ) of the continuation of all other the principles of the doctrine of Christ , and the cessation of onely this of laying on of hands on all baptized believers : for what we are sure was in use among all baptized believers in the primitive times , it concerns them that call for a cessation of it alone , among all the principles of Gods oracles , to shew us some plain word of Christ , for the right of such a cessation of that onely , and no other before they blame us for calling on them for a continuance of that still : but for my part as I find none , so I suppose they may look till their eyes are weary before they can out of Christs testament , not a tittle of which is yet disanul'd , produce any text tending to such a purpose . And because I have inserted and asserted no lesse in the Minor of the Argument I am yet in proving then this viz. that as there 's no intimation of any cessation of laying on of hands on all baptized believers till such time as the work of baptizing all believers it self shall cease , but also a plain injunction from Christ for the continuance of the one of these as long as the other , and for a continual teaching and observation of both as well as either among all the disciples that should be in all nations to the worlds end , I le direct the enquirers to a plain text of Scripture for it , viz. Matth. 28.20 . whence suppositis supponendis taking it for granted , till I shall see more then ever I have yet seen from them , or I believe ever shall see from any to the contrary , that the dispensation , practise , use and observation of laying on of hands among the Apostles , and the primitive baptized believers , who expected that whatever the Apostles delivered to them was first commanded them of God , Act. 10.33 . was no other then what God commanded then to them all , it is as plain as the high way that the very same is commanded to be continued downwards , even to be taught to , and observed by all that ever should be discipled in the nations to the worlds end ; for on the very day in which Christ was taken up after that he through the holy spirit had given commandments to the Apostles , whom he had chosen , being seen of them four'y daies after his resurrection , and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdome of God ( among which I quaery , of the Enquirers whether laying on of hands were not one ? ) he expresly charges them , that whatever he had taught and enjoined them to observe ; they should teach all the nations , i. e. the disciples and baptized believers in all nations to observe the very same , promising his presence in the observation of the same among his disciples , not to the end of that generation , or age onely , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as I have shewed above , to the end of the very world itself . Going out teach all nations baptizing them , i. e. that believe , teaching them i. e. the now newly baptized believers , to observe all things , whatsoever I have commanded you , and therefore laying on of hands surely , it being one of the principles of his doctrine , and lo I am with you , i. e. not your persons onely but your party , not your selves onely whilest you live , but your successors also , in what age soever they shall live in the observation of what I have commanded you , and shall command them by you , alwaies to the end of the world . Finally that laying on of hands on baptizd believers hath the same ends , grounds and reasons why it was to be used , continuing still to this very day , as much as as in the primitive times , is as evident as all the rest : for as the grounds and reasons why they observed such a service then were , and could be no other then the manifestation of it to ●hem from Christ to be his holy command , mind and will concerning them , and to be a certain outward administration of his own chusing , which tho●gh as despicable a dispensation , and as weak , low , foolish , earthen , and empty a thing to see to as wash in Iordan , yet was to be done , sith the Lord had bidden it to be done , as well , yea rather then if it had been some greater matter , if to no other end , then meerly to testify their love to him , and themselves meerly to be his disciples , servants , and friends by observing whatever he commanded Iohn 14.15.21.23.15.14 1 Iohn 5.3 . how much more when it was a way , and order of his own appointment to be observed , and to wait upon him in , together with prayer and supplication , in order to such a glorious and profitable end , and purpose to themward , as this , viz. that they waiting on him in that his own way , might ( as not onely they did , but all others shall , that wait on him in the same in sincerity according to their faith , or else its possible that we may fail of it as they also might and did ) in his measure manner and time receive his holy spirit . Now ( I say ) as these were the ends , grounds and reasons , why among baptized believers this of laying on of hands was observed then , so there are the same ends , grounds and reasons , why the same service should be observed now , For first we have it manifested as sufficiently to our Reason and understanding ( unlesse we will darken the councell of God to our selves by a number of needless queries , superfluous scruples , and words without knowledge ) either expressely or by infallible inferences , and undeceivable deductions in the word to be an urepealed , undisannulled dispensation and patt , and principle of Christs doctrine , will and Testament , as they had , and as baptism it self , which the Enquirers walk still in the practice of , is manifested so to be : Secondly , we are also as much required , and have as much reason as they to manifest our selves to be lovers of Christ , to be his disciples , servants , and friends by our readinesse to do whatsoever he hath commanded . Thirdly we are in as much liablenesse as they to be the least in the kingdome of heaven , if we break one of the least of Christ commandements , and teach men so i e. that they may do so too * , and as much capablenesse of being greatest in the kingdom of heaven , if we do the least of Christs commandements , and teach men so i. e. that they must do so too . Fourthly , we have as much need of the holy spirit now as they had to perform the same good offices for us as he did for them viz. to comfort and support under sufferings , to lust against our flesh , to lead us into all truth , to bring to our remembrance the things that were spoken by Christ , which many men would fain have to be forgotten , to help to mortifie the deeds of our bodies to seal us up to the day of redemption , to reveal unto us , that we may rejoice therein , the things which are freely given us of God , which are the same he gives to them , and to gift us likewise with such gifts as he , not as we shall please * ( for beggers must not be chusers ) for fellowship in the body , that we may be an habitation of God through the spirit , and to gift some also , even such as he pleases , for the work of the ministry , and the edifying of the body in the several offices he hath given to it for the ervice of it , and the truth viz. messengers , elders , deacons &c. for all this he did for them . * Fifthly , we are as much under the promise of the same holy spirit of promise a being baptized believers , as they were b for the promise of it was to them that were far off as well as to them that were nigh , whether in respect of time or place , and therefore to us , yea , and to all men on the same terms on which it was tendred to them . c all that repent and are baptized , all that turn at Christs reproof , all that believe , all that ask the father for it , all that obey him to the worlds end have on these terms a promise of the holy spirit as well as all the baptized believers of the primitive times , and why the baptized believers of these times should have all these ends , grounds and reasons why , and in order to which laying on of hands with prayer was dispenst on all baptized believers then , continuing till now , and yet that dispensation cease and not continue in its use ; and that they should have the promise of the same spirit , and yet not be bound to wait on God , and seek it in the same way is a very riddle to me : I confesse there may be through the unbelief of baptized believers , who will not take Gods word in his word , but say shew us a sign that we may see and believe , shew us such visible gifts , shew us miracles , the gift of healing , and in particular that gift of tongues * ; which thou gavest to baptized believers in the primitive times , in this way of prayer and laying on of hands , and we will submit to it , and believe it to be thy will and command to us now , else not : I say for their unbeliefs sake that obey not , and their too too great defect in faith that do draw neer to God in prayer and laying on of hands , there may be , and that justly , and I think is , a cessation of Gods giving out such measures and full manifestations of his spirit as else he would , yet some gifts he gives now , and that there is warrant to expect , by any promise thereof , some particular gifts that God , for signs of confirmation of the Gospel doctrine to be from heaven in the first giving of it out and removing the old testament , gave in the primitive times , as miracles , tongues , this I deny , but that he gives not the gift of the spirit , and the graces of it , which was the thing mainly promised , and not so much in plurali the gifts of it , as men count gifts distinct from the fruits of it Gal. 5. temperance , love , joy , peace , &c. as if these were not the spirits gifts , much more that the promise of the self same spirit it self ( though it appear not in every individual gift that we out of curiosity desire to see ) doth not cease to us , and that there is no cestation of that outward administration of laying on of hands with prayer on baptized believers , which Christ then was sought to in , for the fulfilling of his promise , this I dare , and do still affirm , and testifie , neither do I judge any man is capable by the word to give any sound reason why it should cease , it being a principle of the doctrine of Christ , till all the principles of the whole foundation spoken of Eph. 2.20 . Heb. 6.1.2 . on which the visible Church is to be built , and all ordinances do cease also together with it at Christs next appearing . Thus having sufficiently proved the Minor of the forenamed argument in each particular of it , in which as neerly as I could well croud them together are coucht as many , if not all such particulars are needful to be proved to the evincing of the continuance of this doctrine and dispensation , of laying on of hands to the end , I shall hasten to an end both of this subject , and of this system also : but because I find some things put in by way of positive exception , and objection against this truth , from the mouthes of some , as well as something by way of query from the pens of others , who also in that way have appeared against it so newly at the the presse , viz. the late Enquirers above-named , a remnant of whose Questions ●emain yet unanswered here , though not so unanswerable as some do deem them , I shall adde a word or two more toward the removeal of these two sorts of blinding bushes , whereby I fear many may be infatuated so as to turn and● from the way of truth in this particular , and so leave both it , and them unto the Lord. First then whereas by word of mouth some tell me , That Laying on of hands was a way peculiar to that juncture , designed of god to the time then being only , wherein the Apostles ( say some and othersome the Lord ) gave the holy spirit in some visible eminent , and extraordinary gifts thereof , as tongues prophecy , miracles , healing &c. simply to this end that these might be a sign to confirm it visibly to the eyes of people , that the doctrine they taught and practised in the principles , and other parts of it was from above , and no other then the oracles of God. First , I grant that in the primitive times , there were , and that in the way of prayer , and laying on of hands , given ( not by the Apostles , though , for ( as is shewed above ) they were not baptizers with the spirit ) but by the Lord onely , whose onely prerogative that is to baptize with the holy spirit , sundry gifts , as healing , &c. which may be called extraordinary , and rare respectively to these times , wherein they have bin seldome or never seen , or heard of , as I know not that that of tongues now adaies ever was , though as to that of healing , and that of discerning of spirits , and some other manifestations of the spirit given to profit withall , as a word of wisdome , and a word of knowledge , it is within a little of past doubt to some that such as these , as the Lord pleases , are some lesse , some more frequently given now among them that walk in truth ( though what gifts some have seen and been sensible of in others or themselves , t is not so fit to boast of , as to be silent . ) Secondly , I grant that many of this sort ( and hapily many more then either are , or need to be , or shall be given now ) were given then to confirm the New Testament doctrine in the first delivery of it to the world , in the room of the old one , to be of God , of some of which there maybe a cessation , the end they had such special respect to then being sufficiently accomplished , and the word being now committed unto writing Mark 16.17 , 18 , &c. Heb. 2.3 , 4. But thirdly , that either such gifts of the spirit as these were either the onely or the chief kind of gifts of the spirit that were to be , and were expected , lookt after or given in that way of prayer and laying on of hands , as a service destinated pro tempore only in order to the receiving of such , or that these gifts were so extraordinary in respect of the eminency or excellency of them ( because more visible and ad extra ) beyond such as may be warrantably by promise expected , and are in that way assuredly and ordinarily given at this day , these two I see no warrant to subscribe to : for as t is most sure that the promise was ( so far as I find ) in terminis nor onely , nor so oft of these things ( though I deny not but these were at that time , for ends that concern not these times promised too ) but of the spirit to several other purposes ( as above ) the holy spirit , the spirit in the fruits , and graces , and comforts of it , the gift of the holy spirit we find it all along almost in no lesse then scores of Scriptures , whereof some few are more plain : so assuredly the holy spirit in that way of prayer and laying on of hands was given to baptized believers in other gifts then these viz. the graces , comforts and fruits of it love , joy , peace , assurance &c. In respect of which in case those outward gifts of the spirit should all have failed , or shall fail now , yet that dispensation is not therefore rendred empty , useless , and out of date , but remaines rather more gloriously useful , then as to external gifts of tongues and such like , continually even unto the end : yea also if we speak of gifts meerly externall , and visible , as some call them ( though for my part I judge the spirit is as visible to us and manifested to be in men by the fruits , and graces , as by those things that are more commonly , but not more properly , then those , called gifts ) I suppose his senses as well as his reason doth not a little fail him , that descerns not , not only those most excellent waies of grace , as love , joy , &c. 1 Cor. 12.31 . but even the best and most excellent , and profitable outward gift of the spirit , even that of prophecy , or speaking to exhortation , edification , and comfort ( for that is the gift of prophecy * , and the best outward gift that we can covet or compasse ) given unto baptized believers , whom we pray for and lay hands on at this day , to whom nature , and University Nursery never gave it . And if any say , we see such a kind of gift as you call prophecy given also to others aswel as such as submit to it . That 's nothing to us what God does whose word binds us to such or such a way , but not himself , we are quaerying what we are required to do by him , upon the account of which we may by promise expect the holy spirit , not what God does ; God often anticipates his own promise , and is better then his word as Act. 10. 47. he gave the spirit before baptism which is promised onely to baptized believers , Act. 2.39 . yet that does neither give us disingagement from Gods outward way , nor warrant us to expect the spirit out of it , but ingage us so much the more unto it ver . 48. If God will give any other men his holy spirit out of that way , I am glad ( sith it pleases himself ) he is so good to them : but as that assures me not that I ( specially if inlightned about his way , yea then assuredly I shall not ) shall have it so too , so sure I am that in his way I shall obtain it , and if any have been so highly favoured of god , as that he mercifully meets them out of his way , that does not exempt them from comming into it , but much more oblige them , if they had no further need of it ( as Christ had none of baptism , save to fulfill all righteousness ) even meerly upon that account to meet him the more cheerfully in it : for thus it becometh us me thinks , as well as it did Christ himself to fulfil all the righteousnes of his law . If any say , I deny not the dispensation of laying on of hands in its due seaso● even in this age , on baptized believers for the spirit , but as they were bid to tarry at Ierusalem till they were indued with power from on high Luke 24.50 . Act. 1.4 . that they might have some men fit to go forth , and by laying on of hands give the holy spirit , being gifted and fitted by it , and filled with it first themselves ; so we must wait in prayer only , for a first giving out of it as Act. 2.1 . till power come down on some to make them fit administrators of this dispensation to others , and then act in it . I say this only in short , first their expectation that some men shall , and thoughts that of old some men did baptize with the spirit is a grosse mistake , for the most they could do was but to pray for it , and barely lay on their hands , Christ did the one and they the other . Secondly , if we must wait , as they did till the day of Pentecost , then we must till that time forbear all baptizing in water , and suspend all preaching to the world aswel as laying on of hands , but this though the Apostles did so in that juncture , and intertime between Christs ascension , and the descension of the holy spirit , yet our Enquirers , among whom some of eminency object as abovesaid , * do in this time ( I suppose ) baptize , and increase their number by preaching the Gospel to the world . Thus far as to the objections : now as to what further obstructive interposal is made in way of question by the Enquirers , some of whose queries viz. the second fourth , seventh and eighth , I have taken notice of above , I shall now remove it by saying a little to the residue viz. the first , third , fifth , and sixth . The first which with the ground thereof is on this wise * is rather a curious querk , then a solid question , so frivolous as is scarce fit to be answered with any thing , but not a word : yet a word neverthelesse even unto that . First , whereas they ground it upon our denial of communion with them , we desire them to know that we may more justly put the businesse of our non-communion with them upon their score , and lay the deniall of it at their own doors as their doing , not ours . I say not ours , who earnestly desire to have communion even in one body with them , and all men in a way of conformity to the word of Christ , which gives neither example , nor toleration , so far as I know , for any mix● communion in one Church of persons , whereof some own all the principles of the doctrine of Christ , and some not only own not , but deny either all , or any of them ; if it doth shew us where ? but theirs who deny a part of that very beginning of the word of Christ , or first form of his doctrine , all the several parts wherof collectively taken make that very foundation , upon the whole of which , and not part of it onely , every right visible Church is built , and constituted , and besides which there can be no orderly either Church or communion . Secondly , whereas t is askt what persons are to say or do , ( at the administration of laying hands ) that they may be found faithful in that point ? I say that according to Act. 8.15.17 . the administrators are to pray for the baptized believers that they may , according to the promise Act. 2.39 . receive the holy spirit , and after that to lay their hands upon them , which is eas●y enough ( I wot ) to be understood without expressing what part of the body hands are to be laid on , whether the head ( the place of our imposition , which if hands be laid on t is laying on of hands is it not ? ) or any other part * ? and ( as at baptism the believer is without gain-saying it , to yield his body to be baptized so ) at laying on of hands , the baptiz●d believer is to say nothing against it , but to give way to have i● done accordingly . The 3d. question with the ground thereof , which runs thus , p is even as superfluous , impertinent , vain and frivolous as the former ; for ( howbeit neither am I one of those many that have ever yet formally , and in terms desired baptized believers to require that hands should be laid on them yet ) laying on of hands on baptized believers either is Christs mind , or it is not , if it be not , and the Enquirers ever prove it is not , we will freely give them leave to require us to let it alone , but if it be , ( as t is proved to be above out of Act. 8.16 . 17.19.1.2.3.6 . where t is so plain as to need no deduction ) then as I shall desire them to have us excused * if henceforward we desire baptized believers to require it to be dispenst to them , so I give them to understand that , it being the mind of Christ , though ( as baptism also is ) one of his too too dispised dispensations , as stout , and loath to stoop to it as some baptized believers seem to be , t is no disparagement to the best of them , that are yet ( as those Act. 8.16 . ) onely baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus , but a behaviour that may well enough beseem them to require it . The fifth question is ushered in by an introduction , consisting of nothing but division and subdivision of laying on of hands into different kinds , according to the difference of the administrators , of the persons to whom , of the accounts or ends upon which , and in order whereunto administred , as it followes in their own words thus viz we do or may read of laying on of hands upon severall occasions , differing one from the other , First , in the qualification of the administrator , as Luke 21.12 . compared with Mark 16 , 18. the one being wicked , the other Godly . Secondly , differing qualifications in persons on whom hands were laid , sometimes before baptized , and sometimes after baptism , Act. 9.17 . and Acts 8.17 . Thirdly , hands were imposed upon several accounts ( or ends ; ) sometimes to be brought before Rulers , as Luke 21.12 . sometimes to heal the sick , Acts 28. 8. sometimes to cure the blind , Act. 9.17 . sometimes to set men apart to administer temporall things Acts 6.6 . sometimes to set men apart to administer spiritual things Act. 13.3 . these were gifted , before hands were laid on them , Sometimes hands were imposed , that men might be gifted , 1 Tim 4.14 . sometimes hands were laid on by men gifted , to give the holy ghost to them that were not set a part to Office , as many of themselves say from Acts 8. 17. After which their question with its ground comes in thus . * To all which viz. their introduction , ground , and question I answer as followeth . First , I deny not but that hands were laid on men then by several sorts of administrators , godly and wicked * in the several seasons of before and after baptism , to and upon several ends , purposes , and accounts , though all the several ends and cases you here distinguish by do not make so many several kinds of imposition of hands neither , so substantially distinct each from other as you would seem to make them ; for imposition of hands on baptized believers before admission , and after that before ordination to office , were one and the same in kind , distinguished onely by the different capacities of membership , and ministership , eldership , messengership , to each of which laying on of hands was Antecedent , yea these were one , and the same kind of imposition of hands , used all in order to one and the same end in general viz. receiving the holy spirit , or , as occasion was , more and more of the spirit , in a measure answerable to their places , diversified onely by the different degrees or stations in the Church to which they were thereby visibly designed : but what if there were never so many kinds of laying on of hands , is it therefore so impossible to determine ( as by your query you seem to imagine ) which among all the rest is meant in such or such a place ? shall we think the Apostles meant to deliver the mind and doctrine of Christ , and that in the very principles or first rudiments of it too , which ought to be the plainest , in such obstruse , dark and ae igmatical wayes that men should scarcely be capable possibly to know what they meant ? there 's several sorts of baptism spoken of in the Scripture , is it therefore so difficult ( if men be not willing ( as some are ) to puzzle themselves besides the practise of water baptism ) to know when he speaks of water , when of sufferings , when of the spirit ? But to the question : sith some will needs , though needlesly , query which of all these layings on of lands the Scripture speaks of is called the foundation , principle or beginning doctrine ? I answer that laying on of hands that t was dispensed with prayer on baptized believers , not as yet to be set apart to office , mentioned Act. 8.15 16.17 . not in order to gifted mens giving it ( for though you will mistake us do what we can , and bring us in as confessing it here , yet we ever utterly deny that any men were ever so gifted as that they could give it ) but in order to Gods giving , and our receiving the holy spirit from the Lord , that laying on of hands I say is it which in Heb. 6.1.2 . is called a principle , a part of that foundation of Christs doctrine on which the visible Church is built . In proof of which let this Argument be considered viz. It s none of all the other kinds of laying on of lands mentioned by you , that is meant Heb. 6.2 . therefore it must necessarily be that . Most undoub●edly t is not that mentioned Luke 21.12 . where it s said prophetically , as concerning the wickeds persecution of the Saints , th●y shall lay their hands on you &c. which we read of also as fulfilled accordingly , and spoken of historically Act. 5.18 . they laid their hands on the Apostles , and put them in prison &c. First , because that is not simply a laying on of hands , but a laying on of violent hands ; and so it should be read ( if the word there used were rightly rendred , and translated into its true English out of the Greek ) for t is not the same , but a word of a far different sense from that which is used every where else , where this doct●ine of imposition of hands is spoken of , for one sounds forth as much as a violent handling ▪ the other a gentle putting , or laying our hands upon the persons . * Secondly , as for that violent laying on of hands in way of persecution wherby the saints suffer , that 's included in the doctrine of baptisms immediately foregoing , it belonging to one of the three , viz. the bitter baptism of sufferings , as a branch thereof , so that it were but confusion , and tautology to expresse that ore again , as if t were ano●her doctrine which was but a part of the doctrine going before , by another name , and such a one too as is never given it in the original , viz. of imposition of hands . Thirdly , whatever doctrine is called a principle or part of the foundation of the doctrine of Christ Heb. 6.2 . the same is called Heb. 5.12 . one of the principles of the oracles or the holy things of God. But the laying on of violent hands on the saints in way of persecution , is one of the principles of the devils doctrine , and a principal part of the very foundation of his kingdome , yea one of the most wicked things that the devil does or delivers , as Christs doctrine , to his disciples . Nor was it a laying on of hands , ( though such a one was used some times ) in order to healing the sick or curing the blind , that was taught as a principle , and practically ownd , and laid as a part of the foundation among all the Hebrewes Heb. 5.12.6.1 , 2. for they were neither all sick surely , nor all blind , when they past under this dispensation so as to have all need to have hands laid on them all upon such accounts , as healing or curing . Nor was it in order to ordination of them to offices , that they might be gifted , and fitted by the spirit thereunto , for the laying on of hands there spoken of , was laid as a principle , as a part of the foundation on which the Church stood , but the laying on of hands to set apart men to administer either temporal things , or spiritual things in the Church is no principle , nor beginning thing , nor foundation antecedent to the Church , as every foundation must be to the building , for the visible Church ever since the first Apostles , whose doctrine was the foundation to it , was antecedent to its officers , and not they to it : the churches were first collected , and constituted upon the foundation or first form of doctrine delivered by the Apostles , and then officers were ordained in every Church ; for the true visible Church may be without officers , though not without ordinances , but Church officers cannot be chosen , nor ordained in it till there be a Church : besides this imposition Heb. 6.2 . was learnt , owned and laid by the whole body of the Church , whom he reproves , saying ye might have been teachers , but ye had need to be taught again , which be the first principles of the oracles of God , but they were not all at first surely by laying on of hands ordained to office . As to the sixth question of the Enquirers which is also the last that I am to speak to , having spoke to the seventh and eighth above , which with the ground thereof runs thus * it is grounded upon such a grosse and grievous mistake , that I am almost amazed that of the fifteen hands that subscribe to those Questions , not one of them did find occasion to subscribe his dissent to this , for whereas t is supposed , and proposed so publiquely for truth by the Enquirers , that Heb. 6.2 . speaks not of any one laying on of hands onely , but plurally , as of the doctrine of baptisms , its most palpably apparent to such as are not a sleep in their reading of that text , that it speaks in the singular number , of one laying on of hands alone , and not of layings on of hands , as it must have been expressed , for so you are fain to expresse it your selves , when you speak plurally of it in your fifth question , had he meant more kinds of imposition of hands then one ; for though hands be the plurall number , yet laying on , which is the phrase you speak to , or else you speak nihil ad Rhombum , is a substantive of the singular number , both in the English , and in the Greek , and suppose the spirit had spoken plurally of more imposions of hands then one ? must that that was Act. 8 . 17-19.6 . on baptized believers be ever the more excluded , or the more incuded rather in all likelyhood among the rest ? † and because the Apostle does not speak particularly enough , nor distinguish , nor expresse plainly enough what he means by shewing the end , purpose and event of the imposition here spoken of , therefore belike he meant that no body should ever own this principle at all : but the truth is he speaks of no more impositions then one , Therefore , to conclude with the Enquirers question propounded thus to themselves , we desire to know what safety it is for any man to conclude that question to be worthy of an answer , that is so falsely grounded as this of the Enquirers is , and to conclude that Heb. 6.2 . is meant of more layings on of hands , when it expresly speaks but of one ? And so dear Friends , whom I love too well to spare speaking plainly to you in a case , wherein upon occasion of your putting on too too rashly in print little lesse then against it , a precious truth of Christ lyes at stake between us , since you are pleased to urge and importune us so earnestly at the close of your questions by the opportunity that you have thereby put into our hands to justify our practise , viz. laying on of hands upon all baptized believers , as we love the glory of God , and the promoting of that , which we so highly esteem and hold to be truth , as we will declare our love to the truth by countenancing men , who diligently make search after it , as we tender the union and communion of the Churches &c. that we would discharge our duty , and try if we could make it appear by the word of God , which I confesse with you is able to instruct us in all things ( and therefore though much might be said from the constant practise of the Churches in , and bordering upon the primitive times , to the further clearing up of the truth in this point , yea men far better studied that way then I am , who yet see sufficiently to my satisfaction , tell us , that all Antiquity teacheth laying on of hands after baptism * yea and some that never practised neither it nor true baptism * yet I wave all such Arguments as of no weight without the word ) Since also you promise us that if we so do , then you shall acknowledg the truth thereof to the glory of God , and your own shame in being ignorant so long , and speedily imbrace it , if God so assist you by his word , professing you will to that purpose expect our faithfull care to be expessed with chearfullnesse , without making delaies , in a matter of so great importance , which may unite and establish us in one mind , hereupon I could not in conscience but take so much notice of your questions ( they meeting me also just in the mouth , whilest I was musing to say some little , but not a quarter so much as here is , to evince the noncessation of this service as well as that of baptism ) as to give this transient answer as I travel along , being bound also as you hint to me , to give to every one that asketh it a reason of the hope that 's in me with meeknesse and fear : so desiring the Lords blessing upon it towards you , and upon you in your examination of it , and ( as you have light ) your execution according to it , that such excaecation , as the Ranter who is run out of the reach of reason , hath by little and little queried himself into may never , overtake you , I remain both yours and every ones servant for Christs sake . Thus much concerning the continuation of that practise of laying on of hands : now as to the present use of the ordinances of breaking of bread , and church-fellowship , I shal speak but briefly to that forasmuch as these are services the continuance of which to the end is denied doctrinally by none ( for ought I know ) but the Ranter , that is run up above all , saving that the Rigid Presbyterians , though in words they own the supper , yet in works do deny it , for many if not most of them live in the neglect of that administration of the supper , in their parishes some four ; some five , some six , seven , eight years without any use of it at all , as if there were no such matter as that now in being ; for others , I mean a certain mixt sort of Independents that are rife in these dayes , they own and practise it and Church fellowship too more then enough , unlesse more orderly in respect of that Antecedency to these of all the principles of the doctrine of Christ , which ought to be now as it was in the primitive times , which times they pretend to reform by , taking in Omnium generum , an Omnigatherum of persons , men and women , whom they take to be believers , into fellowship in one visible body in breaking of bread and prayers , some whereof , having renounced their Rantism as null , are truly baptized ; some as yet but meerly Rantized , yet supposing themselves sufficiently baptized because of that , which can be of no use to them as a sign , for they remember it not ; some hanging in the air between both , not satisfied , whether they were truly baptized in infancy yea or no ; some doubting whether any water baptism at all be needful to be used in these times ; some convinc't that they ought to be baptized , but not yet finding any Administrator , that fits their fancies ; some resolved to be baptized , but Christ , who expects it from them , must wait their leasure , none reproving their procrastination , nor saying to them , as Ananias , to Paul , and now why tarriest thou ? arise and be baptized , and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord , or as Peter to the Iews repent and be baptized ; Some resolving never to be baptized , but roundly renouncing all water baptism as nothing concerning them , yet leaving them at liberty to act according to their light , that have a mind to submit to it , and who see it their duty ▪ as if the plain word of Christ in this point of baptism were such a nose of wax , as might be moulded , and metamorphosed into any model according to every mans mind and temper , or quite canceld , disanuld , melted into no word of Christ at all at every mans haughty humour , that is loath to debase himself so far as to submission to it , as if my Lord , and my Lady , and Sir such a one had more dispensation from Christ then every ordinary body , to shew for their non-obedience to that dispised dispensation ; some of them , that are baptized , under prayer and imposition of hands in order to their obtaining the spirit of promise ; some not having faith in the thing , whether that baptism with the spirit Peter speaks of Act. 2.39 . and Iohn baptist Mat. 3.11 . doth belong to them or no , though there promised to all that are , and shall be ( repenting and believing ) baptized in water , even as many as the Lord shall call , whereupon the fourth principle of Christs doctrine , will not down with them , but when they come to that lesson in Christs ABC they must skip it , and take forth , and , because it likes them not , turn ore a new leaf to the doctrine of the supper , and Church fellowship before they are prefecty past their primmer : to all which confused pro and con congregations , and mongrill kind of ministry , and people , that speak half in the language of Canaan , and half of Ashdod , I le here say no more but this viz. si eo quo caepistis pede perrexeritis &c. proceeding as you begin , and thriving to the hight of your principle throw the nations , the body of Christendom , which was once an uniform , and more lately a triforme * may in time become that , which I judge also it must become for some small season before the end , viz. a monstrous multiform , and at last an omniform beast indeed . But now as to the question , whether these two ( for I must scarce speak of these severally , but very succinctly , and as it were together ) are of right , and according to the mind , and word of Christ to continue to the end ? in proof hereof viz. that they are , I shall refer the Ranter , and the rest ( if any other besides him do deny it ) but to two Scriptures , which prove each of these respectively , and remove some few more of such exceptions as are made against the present practise of both these two , and the other two parts of Christs outward worship and service I have already spoke to , and so put a period to this discourse : The first is 1 Cor. 11.26 . for as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup ye shew ( or shew ye , for the word may be read imperatively , as well as indicatively ) the Lords death till he come , in which words t is so clearly supposed , that the ordinance of the supper is not according to Christs will to cease till the next appearing of Christ , that it were to suppose a man to be void of sense , and reason to undertake to make it more evident to him by framing any formall argument from the place . The Second is Heb. 10.25 . not forsaking the assembling of our selves together as the manner of some is , but exhorting one another while it s called to day , and so much the more by how much you see the day approaching , where it is also most clear , and undeniable , that t is the mind of Christ , that the Saints should keep together in one body in assemblies , and fellowships one with another , and that his sheep should not live in such a stragling state and condition , such single fellowship between God and themselves onely , as is now pleaded for by many , that fall off from following or frequenting any societies at all , and forsake such truly constituted Churches as they were once added to , which argues apparently that ( as we say of sheep when they keep not with the flock , but are found squotting up and down here and there by themselves alone and aloof from their fellows ) that some ill disease and deadly distemper is growing upon them , but that they should keep together in flocks every sheep following the footsteps of the flock , which name of flock is that by which Christ often denominates his sheep , as Luke 12.32 . Act. 20.28 . 1 Pet. 5.2 . to shew that he expects to find them in flocks and fellowships at his coming . Ranterist . Till he come is no other then till his coming into men by his spirit , or in such full measures and manifestations of his spirit into mens hearts , that they may be able to live up with him in spirit , so as no more to need such lower helps from outward administrations , such carnal ordinances , such visible representations of Christ to the bodily eyes such legal rites and meer bodily exercises as baptism and fellowship together in breaking of bread are . These things were used indeed , and ordained as milk for babes in that meer nonage and infancy of the Church , when Christ was known as a child as it were but now we are to know Christ as a man grown in us , risen up in us , aad to have fellowship with him more immediately and intimately in spirit , and not in such external , and meer fleshly formes ; we are to live higher then on such low , weak , empty , elements , and beggarly rudiments as these , which were used , and imposed for a time to resemble Christ to us from without , but must be left when once Christ , the substance , that was set forth by those shadows , is come into us . Christ is now in the Saints the hope of glory , Col. 1.27 . So Heb. 6.1.2 . leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ let us go on to perfection , not laying again &c. you see we must mind higher matters leaving these , which were as a dark glasse , or shadowy dispensation , through which the Church once did see Christ , and knew him after the flesh , but now face to face , 1 Cor. 13.12 . and henceforth know we him so no more , 2 Cor. 5.16 . when I was a child , saies Paul , I spake as a child , and did as a child , and thought as a child , but when I became a man I put away childish things 1 Cor. 13.11 . every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousnesse , for he is a babe , but strong meat belongeth to them that are full of growth , who have their senses exercised to discern between good and evil : Heb. 5.14 . that which is perfect is now come , and therefore what is imperfect , and in part only , as ordinances are , must be done away , and as for gathering of congregations , peoples assembling together in the Church bodies to preach , pray , break bread to build up one ano - in the faith , search the Scripture &c. t was a way of God for mens edification till Christ the morning star shined , to which men did well to take heed , as unto a light that shined in a dark place , but now the day dawnes , and the day starre arises in mens hearts , yea the day breaks and the shadowes flie away ; and Christ comes as a swift Roe , and young heart upon the mountains of Bether ; so that now we are to exercise our selves rather unto Godlinesse for all bodily exercises as baptism , breaking bread and Church order &c. profit little : besides t was said there should be a falling away from all those forms of worship , and the way of ordinances , which was in the primitive times 2 Thess. 2.3 . and a treading down of the holy City and Temple , Rev. 11.1.2 . as to the form it then stood in , both which have fell out also accordingly , so that there hath been a taking of all that dispensation of ordinances in their primitive purity totally out of the way , therefore now we are to meddle no more with them at all ; at least unless we had some extraordinary Prophets , as the Iews had after the treading down of their temple and and worship , to satisfie and shew us that its the mind of the Lord we should set up that old fabrick and form again . Baptist. This is the old tune , which you , and your followers have been used to sing in any time this seven year , which yet I could never learn to this day distinctly to sing in after you , and I am perswaded never shall , unlesse I could hear more clearnesse and distinction in the sound then yet I do , to whom , while I sound how sutable your sense is to the sense of Scripture , you are Barbarians when you speak thus . That Christ now comes in the light and power of his spirit , as a swift Roe and hart upon these mountains of division , that now are between the PPPriests among themselves , and between others and them ; and that abundance of light comes dispelling that fog and smoak of mens traditions , which hath risen out of the bottomlesse pit , and of a long time darkned the Sun , and the air , and the hearts of people , all this I grant , but that this coming of his doth put an end , a ne plus ultra to any one of his own traditions or ordinances that were instituted by him , and in his name delivered to the Churches in the primitive times , as a part of his will and testament then , this is as hard a lesson for me to learn , as t is for some to learn that t is their duty to be baptized : for assuredly nothing but Christs own personal coming shall put a period to any one tittle of his Gospel , will , and Testament , or of that outward dispensation , which by appointment from himself was then in force ; and therefore to neither baptism , imposition of hands , or Churchfellowship in breaking bread , every of which most undoubtedly was a part of the preceptory part of Christs Gospel in those daies , and of that new Testament ratified in his blood , 1 Cor. 11.25 . which gospel , testament and holy will of his , that he as a great Prophet left in charge for all men to observe , when he went away Mat. 28.20 . Mark 13.34 . Luke 19.17 . to the 28. ( and not any new one delivered since ) is the very same , according to which he will judge all men at his return , any part of which therefore in either promise or precept , suppose but the ordinances of it ( for I am sure it was a testament , and Gospel that had ordinances then ) wo be to that man or angel that shall once dare to declare as null : yea let no man flatter himself , and delude others with pretences of an Angelical , Seraphical life to be led now in an higher kind of way then the Saints , and Churches did in the primitive ages of the Gospel ; for I tell that man that if he were not only appearing to himself to be wrapt up above Paul , but really an angel from heaven , and not Christ himself * ( who when he comes personally , shall say indeed unto his servants come up higher ) he must be Aaathema , preaching , and holding forth other then what the Apostles at first delivered to the Churches of Galatia , who received the Gospel with the outward ordinances , and Church order thereof , Gal. 1.6.7.8.9.11.12 . compared with 1 Cor. 11.23.24 . &c. in which Scriptures its evident that the whole intire Gospel , which was preached then by Paul , who received it together with the ordinances of baptism Gal. 3.27 . and the supper , not of man , but of the Lord , was strictly required to be kept , without hearkning to any other things , then what were then delivered , and received in the Churches , though spoke by an angel from heaven , or their very selves , who at first preached them , who , if ever any such thing should have fallen out , as their falling off from that truth , and contradicting themselves , for so doing must have been held accursed ; yea if Paul himself should have come some 100● of years after to the Churches of Galatia , and gainsaid what he had said before , saying you received the Gospel from me at first with ordinances , but now you may let the ordinances of it alone , it s enough for you to believe onely , and live up to God in the spirit , he had condemned himself to cursing out of his own mouth : if then the Apostles , that at first gave out the Gospel to the world , were not , on pain of being accursed , to preach any other then what at first they preached , what cursing attends thee ( O wretched Ranter ) that deifiest thy self , and takest upon thee not onely to deny , but to defie the Gospel of Christ in the ordinances of it , and the holy oracles of the living God ? Thou tellest us of a coming of Christ by his spirit into the hearts of men , after which , there need be no more use of ordinances , that when Paul saies men must continue breaking bread till he come , he means till he comes in spirit , but I tell thee , if the right eye of reason were not utterly darkned in thee , thou could● not but understand , that till he come , 1 Cor. 11. speaks of the same time as Christ himself speaks of , when he saies to his Church in Thyatira Rev. 2.25.26 . which were then in a Church posture , and under the use of ordinances , that which ye hav● already hold fa●t till I come , and that that time was no other then the end of this world , which he shall put a period to by his personal coming , is cleared by the verse following , he that over cometh , and keepeth my works unto the end , to him will I give power over the nations , where by the end , as he means the same period he pointed at before , in that phrase till I come , so he means the time of Christs second coming to judgement , to raign at the end of this world , mentioned Mat. 24.3 . and in scores of Places more , and not the time of his coming by his spirit unto men , for so he was come , and hath come , more or lesse , well nigh as soon as , and even ever since he went away , yea according to his promise he soon sent his spirit to abide with his people , ( in their observation of his commandements , and not otherwise ) as a comforter in the absence of his person , Iohn 14.15 , 16. one office also among the rest of which spirit when he should come ( so far was he by his coming from disingaging men from obedience to any one thing , that Christ spake while he was on earth ) was because many would be very subject to to forget , and be willingly ignorant of Christs lawes , to teach all things , and bring all things to their remembrance , whatsoever Christ said unto his disciples , while he was with them , Iohn 14.26 . yea so he was come to his disciples and the Churches , even unto Paul himself , and that very Church of Corinth , whom he praises for keeping some ordinances he delivered to them , and charges to keep that of breaking of bread till Christ come , long before he gave this charge , and that in such a high degree , that they had even all the gifts and manifestations of the spirit among them that might be 1 Cor. c. 12. c. 13. c. 14. so that they had abundance of Prophets , and spiritual men among them , 1 Cor. 14.37 . that were higher in the spirit , ( or if they were not Paul , that was once in the third heaven was ) then the spiritual men of this age , yea they were a people in every thing inriched with all utterance , and all knowledge , and the testimony of Christ was so confirmed in them by the coming of the spirit , that they came behind in no gift 1 Cor. 1.5.6.7.8 . yet were they to wait ( in the dispensation , and use of ordinances wherein they were ) for another coming of the Lord Jesus in which way Pauls hope was that Christ would confirm them to the end , that they might be blamelesse ( as else it seemes they could not be ) in the day i. e. the great , and notable day of the second personal coming of the Lord Jesus ; Thou talkest to us ( alluding to Heb. 9.10 . where the ordinances of the divine service of the law , or old testament are so stiled ) of the ordinances of the Gospel , under the name of carnall ordinances , meer fleshly formes , but know oh vain man , that the outward rites , or ceremonies of the Law are there called carnall on such an account , as the ordinances of the Gospel cannot be so stiled , viz. not at all because they were services performed by the outward man , but because the performance of them served , and sanctified no further then to the purifying of the flesh , v. 13. viz. to the purging of the practisers thereof , i. e. the Jews from such outward , fleshly impurities , as were contracted in the time of the Law by such things * and actions as did denominate persons unclean for the time then being , but neither do nor can so denominate them now , that law with all the ordinances of it being abolished . Thou callest Christs ordinances , ( being not a little deluded by some expressions of Mr. Saltmarsh , who speaks of them in his books , as matters pertaining only to Iohns ministry , whom together with his baptism , and all that was done ad extra in the primitive time , he puts upon the account of the law , as pertaining to it , rather then purely upon the account of the Gospel ) but know ( fond man ) that as Iohn was a minister of the Gospel of Christ , and not of the law , and his ministration of preaching , and water baptism the very beginning of the Gospel of Christ ( as I have shewed above ) Mark 1.1.4 . so if he and his ministration of baptism had related simply to the law , as they did not , yet that of laying on of hands , and Church-fellowship in breaking bread , were all given in charge by the new law-giver Christ Jesus , and that of water baptism too , for ( as if he had foreseen that some should delude themselves and others , so as to say it ended at his death ) even that also was given a new after his death , as his expresse commmand concerning all people to the worlds end . Thou speakest of living higher then on such low , weak , empty elements , and beggerly rudiments , but ( to say nothing of thy abominable impudency , and the desperate * despite herein done by thee to the son of God , whom thou treadest under foot , whilst thou despisest his day of small things , and settest light by the least of his commands , and hurlst at thy heels the least jota of his law and testament , or art ashamed of his words ) to let passe that ( I say ) we give thee to understand , that we live not on these ordinances we use , but only on our Lord Christ in them , whose foolish , weak things , and earthen vessels they are , by which he hands heavenly treasure to believing souls . Thou tellest us that the use of outward ordinances was milk for babes in that infancy or nonage of tue Church , ( which is no more then what we say our selves , of some ordinances at least viz. baptism and imposition of hands , which with the rest of the word of the beginning of Christs doctrine are so stiled , Heb. 5.12 . 13.6.1.2 . But what of this ? is it not very fit therefore that they should still be used , the Church being yet under age ? unlesse thou wilt run necessarily upon the utterance of one of these two absurdities , viz. that babes are not to be fed with milk now , as heretofore , but are more fitly fed with stronger meat , or else ( which is as gross ) that there are no new born babes now in the Church ( as before ) at all , but that every beginner in Christ is now a strong man , a perfect man in Christ , so soon as ever spiritually born . Thou tellest us that to use ordinances is to know Christ after the flesh , who from thenceforth was to be known so no more : but herein oh spiritual man , thou bewrayest thy own fleshly , carnall , and most crude conception of that place , whereby the words of Paul , though we have known Christ after the flesh , he means not a knowing of him in the use of ordinances ( for then when he saies henceforth know we no man after the flesh , it must have the same sense too , and would suppose that till that time the Saints had known men in the use of ordinances ; besides , that the Church at Corinth knew Christ in the use of ordinances long after this , is eminently evident in the Epistle of Clement the Pastor , and the Church at Rome , written to the Corinthians , upon occasion of their disorder in church affairs , some 30 years after Paul wrote this ) but he means that they , from thenceforth that Christ died , did take cognizance of no man as ere the better , upon the account of a meer fleshly descent , or birth of any mens bodies , no not of Abrahams , as they had before , nor count men in Christ , and Christians at such a rate as they were counted to God , as his , under the Law , but onely as new born , spiritually born from above , as new creatures , as believing according to Iohn 1.12.13 . and Gal. 3.26.29 . if Christs by faith , then Abrahams seed and heirs &c. Thou tellest us that ordinances are as it were a dark glasse , through which we are to behold Christ , till we come to see him face to face , a certain shadowy dispensation , till the substance it self comes ; childish things that must be put away , when once we become men , things imperfect , and in part onely , which when that which is perfect is come must vanish , and be done away and such like : and all this , as t is nor more , nor lesse then we say our selves , so t is even as much as we need desire thee to say as to the evincing of what we contend for : for sith we yet see not face to face ( 1 Pet. 1.8 . in whom though now ye see him not , yet believing ye rejoice with joy unspeakable &c. when he shall appear , we shall be like him , for we shall see him as he is , 1 Iohn 3.2 . i. e. then , and not before ) and since that which is perfect , i. e. the substance is not yet come ( for as we that remain , and shall be alive at the coming of Christ , shall not prevent , or , as to perfection , be before hand with them that are asleep in Iesus , 1 Thess. 4.15 , 16 , 17. so they i. e. that are long since dead both in and for the Lord , without us shall not be made perfect , Heb. 11.40 . ) sith we are not all yet come to be men at age ( to the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of Christ ) therefore ( ad hominem ) till then we must look through the glasse , till then the shadow , and that which is in part , and imperfect , ( as being indeed most suitable to an imperfect state ) must stand , till then the outward work of the ministry in point of offices , and ordinance , for the perfecting of ●he Saints , for the edifying of the body , must remain , Eph. 4.11.12 , 13. Thou tellest us ( mistaking the sense of Paul Phil , 3.13.14 . Heb. 6.1.2 . ) that higher things , perfection are now to be minded , and prest after , and these to be forgotten ; that those are principles of Ch●ists doctrine , which were once eyed and laid as a foundation , but must be left and not laid now any more : But ( contrary to what David saies of himself Ps. 131.12 . ) thine eyes are so lofty , thy heart so haughtily exercised in minding the things thou callest high , some of which are too high , and others too low , and base for any Christian to be busied in , that thou mindest not the words of Paul to all Saints Rom. 12.16 . where he saith , not minding high things ( for so the greek words truly translated are ) but together with high things , minding low things : t is confest that in some sense we are to forget , or not to mind what is behind , but to mind , to presse after , to reach forth to things that are before , to leave the principles , the foundation of Christs doctrine , & go on to perfection , but not in thy sense ( o Ranter ) who hereby takest upon thee to buryall manner of observation of these things ( even by any ) under utter oblivion , to prohibit all present practise of principles by so much as babes , to rase the foundation so as to declare it not fit to be laid at first now , as of old it was , no not by very biginners in the School of Christ : but in the spirits sense , who in those places , means no other then thus viz. not that the babes in Christ must not use milke in these times , as well as in the primitive , not that the beginner in Christs School is not now as well as then to learn his letters , and to begin first in his ABC , not that those , that will begin to build themselves an holy temple in the Lord , an habitation of God through the spirit , must not now lay any foundation at all , but that having laid the foundation they should not think that their building is at an end , but build up higher , grow up higher in Christ thereupon , that they should lay the foundation so sure at first that they should not have need in respect of their non proficiency or relapses into sin , to be laying these i. e. faith of remission , repentance &c. ore and ore again , but to proceed to perfection : that babes should not remain alwaies babes , feeding on nothing but milk , but growing in grace , and in the knowledge of Christ , and in ability to bear stronger meats , higher doctrines : that the young Scholar should not remain alwayes a novice , an ABC darian , no further learnt then in his horn book , but according to the time he hath had , learn to read perfectly that he may be able to teach others , rather then need to be taught his letters again : this is the spirits sense , for otherwise it s ever necessary that babes have milk , and absurd that a Scholar should be bid to forget his letters , and how to spell , that builders should leave laying any foundation , when they begin : nay veri●y the most studied Scholar must first learn , and then remember his letters , or else he cannot possibly read : babes must be fed with milk at first , or else they will not thrive to be perfect men : builders must lay a foundation , and have an eye to ▪ it too all along in their building upward , even till they come to the very top , observing how all the whole fabrick that they work after , doth square and keep touch with that , or else they may chance to make such a crooked fabrick , as will fall to the ground at last : yea perveniri ad summum nisi ex principiis non potest . Thou tellest us ( as concerning the outward ordinances of the Gospel ) that bodily exercises profit little , but art wretchedly ignorant of it * that by bodily exercises which profit little , Paul means not at all as thou dost , the ordinances of Christ , or any ou●ward parts of his worship , and will revealed in his word , for that is , though not the greatest , yet a great part of godlinesse it self , which according to the true signification of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a right serving of God according to his own will in his word of truth , where he requires us to serve , worship , and glorifie him in our bodie , as well as in our spirit 1 Cor. 6.19.20 . but such bodily exercises , and old wives fables , as abstinences from meats , lent'n , and good friday fasts , and such ordinances , as touch not , tast not &c. which men subject themselves to after the commandements , and doctrines of men , of Popish Priests , whose Religion stands mostly in such matters 1 Tim. 4.3.4.7.8 . Col. 2.20.21.22 . Thou tellest us ( as one of the main grounds , whereupon there must now be no more walking in ordinances , and that way of outward service that was at first ) that it was foretold 2 Thess. 2.3 that there should come a falling away from it , and a treading down of all that outward form , which then was : which ( to say nothing how probable it is that that prophecy 2 Thess. 2.3 . and several more , do point more at that falling away that thou ( oh false prophet ) shalt cause in the very last dayes , then at that which by the proud PPPriesthood hath been made before thee ) I declare to be such an absurd and senslesse consequence , as is more worthy of a silent sleighting , then a solid answer ; for if that be of force to prove a disannulling of that administration , then it s of force much more against the acting of faith it self , for as it s not said there from what the falling away shou●d be , so it s expressely said elsewhere there should be a departure from the faith 1 Tim. 4.1.2 . so that if the foretelling that there should be a falling away from the truth of ordinances , prove that therefore there must be no practising of them now at all , then there being a prophecy of a falling away from the right belief of the Gospel , will evince that there ought now to be no right believing , and so belike we do as ill in believing the Gospel now , as in practising the ordinances of it : but this will not not hold , and therefore certainly not the other . More over ( that thou maiest see how contrary thou art to the Apostles , not in thy actings only , but in thy arguings also ) consider that whereas thou admonishest men thereupon to be carelesse as concerning ordinances , they even from their own predictions of a falling away from the purity of the primitive way , stir the Saints up to so much the more dilligent and strict attendance to it , Iude ver . 3.4 . from the very consideration of a future falling away exhorts the Saints , not therefore to let go , but earnestly to contend for that faith , which was once delivered to the Saints ; and I appeal to the understanding of any one , that hath not shut up his eyes from seeing and searching afte● the mind of God in the Scripture , whether Paul doth not charge Timothy 1 Tim. 4 16.5.21.6.13 . 1 Tim. 3.14 . ( to whom he had told it before in 1 Tim. 4.1 . that there should be a departure from the faith ) even therefore ( as he would answer it before God ) to observe those things concerning outward discipline , and Church order , offices , and ordinance in point of laying on of hands , and other things , of that kind as well as other , that he in the name of the Lord had commanded him , and to keep them without spot and unrebukeable even to the appearing of Jesus Christ , and not onely to continue himself in the doctrine , and things that he had learnt from Paul , among which many were instructions for the right ordering of Churches 1 Tim. 3.15 . but also to take special order for the continuation thereof downwards to succeeding generations without the least hint of any term or period of time , wherein they of right should cease : the things which thou hast heard of me among many witnesses , the same commit thou to faithful men , that shall be able ( i. e. after thy decease ) to teach others also , 2 Tim. 2.2 . and not onely so , but whether he doth not in that very place thou alledgest viz. 2 Thess. 2.15 . even therefore enjoin the Saints to hold fast the traditions or ordinances ( for so the same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is used here , is truely enough re●dred 1 Cor. 11.2 . ) because he had told them above that there should come one , that should delude many with lyes ? whereas if Paul had argued as thou O Reason●esse doest , he must have said thus viz. there shall come a falling away from the purity of ordinances , by a wicked one that shall tread them down , therefore be not too stiff in standing for them , but let go the ordinances which have been taught you whether by word or Epistle : Peter also foreseeing , and accordingly foreshewing , that there should come scoffers in the last daies walking after their own lusts , not Christs commands , wills the Saints that should be in those last times , as Malachi did the Jewes , after a long deformation , to remember the Law of Moses with the statutes and judgements Mal. 4 4. in which we now live , to look back to and be mindful of the words that were spoken before , by the holy prophets , and the commandments of the Apostles of the Lord and Saviour , 2 Pet. 3.2 . as Iude also does in the self same words , and upon the self same account Iude 17. And this I find to be the course of the Apostles all along , upon foresight of the dark and declining time , to refer the Saints of the last times to their primitive orders , and by Arguments drawn from the stedfastnesse of the word of the old Testament , in every tittle , to shew much more a stedfastnesse in the new , and a liablenes to punishment for every transgression , and disobedience to this , as there was for that , Heb. 2 . 2-10.28 . every jot of which was so stedfast , that even tith of Mint , Annis and Cummin , which the Pharisees did ill indeed in so doting upon , as to neglect the weightier matters of judgement , mercy &c. was neverthelesse not to be neglected Matth. 23.23 . on pain of being accounted Robbers of God Mal. 3.8 . and howbeit the greater , and higher things of the Gospel , as faith , holinesse of life &c. are not to be forgotten , while we attend to lesser and lower , yet how the law of Christ was so stedfast as that of Moses , if it ly in the power of man or Angel to disannul the least particle of it , till Christ himself , who is the only abolisher of old dispensations , and establisher of new , do , by his own next personal comming , put an end to this , as he did by his first comming unto that , I am not able to imagine . Thou tellest us , Suppose the Saints and churches ought to have held fast their administration of ordinances to this day , yet what of that ? the Churches have lost , and let go that first outward form of service , and Iezebe● 〈◊〉 ●hore hath got into the Temple , and filled all with Idolatry , and trod all the true way under foot , and instead thereof set up her own ordinances , and traditions , the Clergy hath corrupted and depra●ved all that first face of outward worsh●p , therefore it s now no more to be meddled with for ever , there must be no more raising the holy City in that form and way , wherein it stood before , no more Churches , nor ordinances : but did every any rational spirit argue thus , viz. because the true appointed way of Gods worship was lost , when it should have been , therefore it must not be found , recover'd , nor returned to again when it may be ? surely the same rule , reason , warrant and command by which the Church was bound to have stood in the way of truth without falling away , by the same is she now bound to rise from whence she is fallen , or else I know not what Christ means when he saies to the Church at Ephesus Rev. 2.4 , 5. Remember from whence thou art fallen , and repent and do thy first works &c. Secondly , by the same reason and ground that the Jewes returned from Babylon to Ierusalem , and built the holy City and Temple that was the type , when by the enemy Typical of our Gospel Babylonians , the Priesthood and his people , that have led the Church captive from her own border for a time times and a half even 70 years it was trodden underfoot , and began again to practise the word , worship and ordinances of the old Testament , so long abolished , agreeably to Gods will , by the same I say , may the Gospel Church , having now both light and liberty so to do , return from under the power , and tyranny of mystery Babylon , and betake her self to her own border from whence she was driven , to her own City ▪ Temple , form of worship , old Church order , ordinances , and service , which were all by violence trod down , and caused to cease for a time , times and an half , for 42. moneths or a 1260. years , as that which by the might of men suppressing it , hath lest not a jot of its right , as that which is required of us now , as the other was of them , till Christ by his first comming put an end to that administration , as he shall by his second unto this . Thou tellest us no , there is not the same reason , Because , First it was foretold that they should return again after a set period of time , and how long Ierusalem should be trodden under foot , even for seventy years , and after that be built , and her old form of worship restored . Secondly , they had extraordinary prophets Haggai and Zachary to attend them , and dictate to them the mind of God in those things they did from God. But I tell thee ( and thou wouldest see it thy self but that thou art minded to be blind ) First , those Prophets spake nothing as by command from God to them , then what they had a written word , and Testament for out of Moses and the other prophets , whom if they had in the least contradicted , they must have been rejected , as extraordinary as they were ; neither were they inciters of them to any new thing , nor yet to any thing save what they stood bound to do before , and had done still , had those prophets never came neer them , viz. to build the house of the Lord , and set up their old worship according to the Testament of Moses , those Prophets were sent because of their sluggishnesse , and backwardnesse to act in it , their preposterous ca●e first to build , and ce●l their own houses , and let the Temple ly wast the while , and to quicken them to that duty of building Gods ; for duty all the world may see it was , or else how could the neglect therof have bin punishable , and punished , as it was , with drought , and blasting of all their endeavors to be rich , before those Prophets spake to them ? Hag. 1.2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , those Prophets came but upon occasion of their frustrating Gods expectation , who looked that they should have begun to build the Temple of themselves , but because he took them tardy in that work , was put to it further then they had thank for , even to send men of extraordinary spirits to stir them up , as he may do ( if yet he do not ) and that not without need , to us in these daies , considering our untowardnesse and aversnesse to repair the breaches , to build the old wasts , and the Church desolations of many generations , and our subjection to sleight the clear commands of his first Apostles : it had been more thnnkeworthy , and more accep●able to God if the Jews had acted by the Law of Moses , and according to the written rule of the other Prophets , then it was to forbear , and to say that time was not a time , wherein to build the Lords house , and so it will be thank-worthy in us , seeing ( as they had Moses and the Prophets , so ) we have Christ , and the Apostles , to hear them , and to act still according to their old commandements ; but to sit down , under a written Testament , in meer speculation and contemplation , suspending all execution of Christs Antient known will , unlesse there be some strange , and unpromised manifestation of a new , or of that old a new , by some extraordinary messengers , or by some sent unto us from the dead , is that which God will con Christian men no more thanks for I think at the last , then he did the redeemed Jews , upon whom the like pretence was charged , and punished by him as iniquity Hag. 1.4 . Again , are there not promises , and prophecies of the like things to us in the New Testament , as there were , in the like case of treading down their worship , to them under the old , and as , if not more clear , then they had of a restitution ? was it not as distinctly foretold , for how long our Gospel Babilonish captivity , and treading down of the holy City , Temple , and true worship should last , viz. for 42. months , or a 1260 years , as theirs was for 70 years ? after which , it s most evident therefore it must rise again , or else the spirit could not have determined the time of the treading down by a certain term of 42 moneths , but would surely have said thus , the holy City shall they tread down for ever , or to the end of all time : for if the old Jerusalem , the Jewes , their Temple and worship , even the self same that was troden down ( for a resurrection , or restoration is of the self same thing still ( and not another ) that was troden down or decayed ) had never been in the mind of God to have been raised again , and restored , the time of its laying wast could not properly be prefixed by such a period , nor be stiled a 70 years devastation : also was is not foretold to us , that the little book of the New Testament , that was to be shut up by that smoak of traditions , and fog of errors , that should arise out of the bottomlesse pit , by means of the star , or Bishop of Rome , that opened the pit , should be opened again , and prophecyings be out of it , before the world ? Rev. 9.1.2.3.10.1.10.11 , yea is not ▪ the Gospel in that primitive purity , and plaines from the simplicity of which all people have been bewitched by the whores sorceries , begun again accordingly to be preached , though as yet by too few practised ; is not that little book now open in the hand of the Angel Christ Jesus ? and are there not prophets that , having eaten up that little book , as Ezekiel did his role , and Ieremy did the words of God when he found them Ezek 3.1.2.3 . Ieremy 15.16 . are paind within to speak the word to Peoples , Nations , Tongues , and Kings , as they were , though for so doing they are like them also viz. men of strife and contention to the whole earth ? who so far as they incourage us to no more then what there is a written word for , must be heeded by us in these daies , as those Prophets were by them ? and is there not now a written Testament , a sure word to give heed to , and be a rule to us in our raising of the A●●ient form , and order of Churches and Ordinances , even the Testament of Christ himself , who was as faithful to deliver his will punctually to his house , as Moses was to a tittle to deliver the old will of God to his ? Heb. 3.5.6 . in which word of his are we not bid ( as they Zach. 2 ▪ 6.7 . ) to come out of Babilon , and be separate ? 2. Cor. 6.14.15.16.17 . Rev. 14 18 9 10.8.4.5 . and is there not a reed given , and a command to rise and measure the City and Temple , and worshippers in order to building again of what was ruined , as the plummet was then in hand of Zorobabel ? Zach. 4 10. we have for ought I see , as plain promises , prophecies , warrands , and grounds , as they had to build , when they came from Babilon , if we have eyes to see them , unlesse nothing will serve to the satisfying of us ( as indeed it will not to the satisfying of some ) that our acting in the old way of Christ is his mind , and will concerning us now , but miracles to confirm us in the belief of it : by whose leave I must rather call for miracles from them , to confirm it , that their leaving that old administration of ordinances and beginning to act in that new way of no ordinances is of God , for , as for the doctrine we practise , t was at first confirmed by miracles , as Gods manner ever is at the remove of any old Testament , or will of his , and establishing a new one in its stead , but theirs , though a new one , nor yet committed to writing , was never yet confirmed by miracles at all ; and suppose they had had more extraordinary Prophets , then we have , at the restoring of their ruins after the Babilonish wastings , yet le ts know what extraordinary Prophets they had to build upon , for the re-edifying of their dayly sacrifices and religion , when trod down for a time , times and an half also , by Antiochus , that most lively type of Christs Church-wasting enemies under the Gospel ? of whose violent ablation of all , and lawful restoration of all again by the Jews , according to the old pattern ( excepting what corruptions , were afterward among them , which yet did not disannul the right of the remaining of any truth may ) be read at large 1 Mac. 1.2 . Mac. 7.2 . Mac. 10. which all stood in force , notwithstanding that falling away , even till Christ himself , who also confirmed , and practised to a tittle according to Moses Testament , during his life , at last put an end to it by his death . All thy arguings therefore ( O libertine ) from a falling away to no return , from a treading down of the true way of ordinances to no erecting it again , are but a sort of sorry shifts , whereby thou fencest off that part of Christs Gospel , which I confesse from some experience in my own crooked , deceitful , yet self-searching heart flesh and blood takes no delight in : for if we consider things under the Gosp●l with that relation , and proportion they stand in to things under the Law , which were Types and shadows of them , then we must conclude there is a certain space , or intertime between the last period of the 42 months , or of the time of treading down of the true Gospel worship by might , and Christs coming to abolish , and take away their right ( as there was after the Babilonish captivity a space of 70 weeks ) in which the Saints according to the call , and warning given them to worship God aright , and decline the beasts worship , and come out of Babilon , Rev. 14. Rev. 18. are obedient , and continue in the word of Christs patience , under all the mallice of the beasts worshippers , and in the observation of the commandements of God , and the faith of Jesus , and of all the works that Christ left in charge at his departure , to be kept in memoriall of him in his absence viz. baptism , the supper &c. that so , when the Lord shall come as a snare , and as a thief on all that are disobedient to his voice , and contentious against any tittle of his truth , they may be found , as Noah , and Lot ( till whose separation the doom determined could not fall upon the wicked Gen , 19.22 . ) out of Sodom Rev. 11.8 . in Zoar , in the ark i. e. Christ , and his true wayes , Ordinances and worship , which are to them , as those of old to the other , a little Sanctuary * ; and being found so doing ▪ as Christ required , keeping his commandement● , may be blessed , and have right to the tree of life , and to enter in thorow the gates into the City Rev. 22 14.15 . and be entertained with well done good , and faithful servant , thou hast been faithful in a very little , and over a few things , have thou authority over much , over many things , enter thou into the joy of thy Lord , Mat. 25.21 . Luk. 19.17 . Thou tellest us that the day star arises , and the day approaches , and therefore now there need be no such heed given to the edifying one another in Assemblies , by the use of Ordinances , but whether we shall believe thee ( o perverter ) who saiest we must give attendance to these things so much the lesse , or Paul , who saies * so much the more as we see the day approaching , let any judge , but thy besotted self , who speakest all along , by a spirit most contradictory to , and yet canst not be perswaded , but that in all thou speakest answerably to the word . Thou tellest us that Christ is now in his Saints the hope of glory , but thou tellest us no newes in this , for I know not when he was otherwise , while they walkt not after the flesh , but after the spirit , in obedience to his voice , in holy conformity to his will , and word , and in fellowship one with another , in the use of all his holy ordinances , but as for thy self ( o spiritualist ▪ that separatest thy self sensual , not having the Spirit , though pretending to have it in a higher degree , then any that live in bondage unto Ordinances , I know not how to believe he is so much in thee as the hope of glory , for every one that hath this hope in him , purifieth himself , as Christ is pure 1 Iohn 3.3 . Thou tellest of seeing face to face , of present perfection , and manhood , and that that which is perfect is come , and that thou livest already with God , in God , in full and actual enjoyment of heaven and all heavenly happinesse , God dwelling already in thee , and thou in him , in the very substance , which was once shadowed out by the childish things called Ordinances , in the secret chambers of the most high , in the heights of God , in the very bosom and inmost imbraces of the father , in a high degree of godlinesse , spirit , and glory ; But ( to let passe how thou contradictest , confutest , and givest thy self the lie , when thou expressest all this sometimes by no higher a term then Christ in thee the hope of glory , for hope that is seen is not hope , for what a man seeth why doth he yet hope for ? but if we hope for that we see not , then do we ( not say we have it , but ) with patience wait for it , as not yet actually enjoyd Rom. 8.24.25 . ) we know well enough ( forthy own practise , and sometimes thy own speech bewrayeth thee ) what thy spiritualnesse , perfection , and godlinesse is , thy spiritualnesse is to fulfil the will of the flesh with out scruple , to feed , and feast it without fear , to swaggar and swear , & ●evil & roar , and rant and whore , and in all this to have no more con●cience of sin then a very bruit : thy perfection is a meer defection from the truth , thy fulnesse of age to discern between good and evil is a faculty to discern , that there 's neither good nor evil , thy Godlinesse to be ( as Paul paints thee out 2 Tim. 3.1 , 2. &c. ) a lover of thy self , coveteous , proud , a boaster , a blasphemer , disobedient to Governours &c. incontinent , fierce , a despiser of those that are good , treacherous , heady , high-minded , a lover of pleasures more then God , and to have a form , or pretence of godlynesse , whereby with the more advantage to creep into houses , and lead captive to thy lust silly women laden with lust , but to resist the truth , and deny the power thereof , and instead of denying all ungodlinesse in such a sense as the grace of God teaches men to do , i. e. to have nothing to do with it , by a principle of grace turned into wantoness , to deny that there 's any ungodlinesse at all . Neverthelesse know this that the Lord commeth with 10000 of his Saints to convince all that are ungodly among them , of all their ungodly deeds , which they have ungodly committed , and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him , Iude 14.15 . and though thou , being willingly ignorant of any such personall comming of Christ ( Oh Ranter ) and ungodly scoffer of these last times , that walkest after thy own lusts in sensual , lascivious , and polluted wayes , since thy forgetting the words of the Apostles of our Lord , and thy unlawful separation from the true Churches , Iude 17.18.19 . since their lawful separation from the false 2 Cor. 2.14.15.16.17.18 . saiest where is the promise of his coming ? and because all things continue as they were 2 Pet. 3.2.3 4 ▪ 5. pleasest thy self in believing he will never so come ; yet he will so come in like manner i. e. visibly , personally , bodily ( but far more gloriously ) as he went away Act. 1.11 . and be revealed from heaven in flaming fire , taking vengeance on them that know not God ( them specially that know no other God but themselves , and their belly Phil. 3 19. ) and on them that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ ; 2 Thess. 1.7.8.9 . who shall be punisht with everlasting destruction : yea while thou dreamest ( oh filthy dreamer ) despising government ( even ecclesiastical and civil ) defiling the flesh , having eyes full of adultery that cannot cease from sin , ( and yet cannot commi● sin , because with thee there is now no sin ) promising men liberty whilst thou thy self art a servant of corruption , and a slave in chains to Satan , acting and ranting in every particular , even to the life ( I should say rather to the death , for t is to thy own ) according as thou art punctually painted out , and prophesied of all along by Peter 2 Peter 2. c. 3. and Iude in both their Epistles , who speak both the same things , which either speaketh , and no other then the self same , which thou dost ; yet thy judgement now of along time lingreth not , and thy damnation slumbreth not , 2 Pet. 2.3 . for thy Lord ( O evil servant ) that art not found so doing ( as some few will be ) as he left in charge when he went away , but saiest in thy heart , my Lord delayes his coming , and thereupon beginnest to smite thy fellow servants , that keep close to the masters will , that they may be without spot as his appearing , and to eat and drink with the drunken , thy Lord I say will come , to thy cost , in a day when thou lookest not for him , in an hour that thou art not aware of , and cut thee a sunder , and appoint thee a portion with the hypocrites : there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth Mat. 24.46.47 , 48 , 49 , 50 , 51. yea , O thou unprofitable servant , thou shalt be cast into utter darknesse , Mat. 25.30 . yea , thou fearless feaster , and feeder of thy self against the day of slaughter Iam. 5.5 , 6 ▪ 7. thou fruitlesse , twice dead , bruitish Creature , the very mist and blackness of darknesse is , against that time of Christs comming reserved for thee for ever 2 Pet 2.17 . Iude 13. ANTI-SACERDOTISM . Sacerdotale delirium dilineatum , The dotage of the Priests discovered , OR Editio nova auctior , et emendatior . A new Edition , With no small Addition In way of Emendation , Amplification , and truer Application of the third part of that trebble Treatise , which is extant about the Ashford Disputation , ENTITLED . A pathetical exhortation to the Pastors to oppose the growth of Anabaptism , or a short discourse concerning the means of opposing hereticks in disputation and preaching . In which new Edition , as Christs true Clergy , alias , the Churches that are commonly , but not properly , called ANABAPTISTS , are cleared not to be such , So ( exceptis excipiendis ) the Pope and his CCClergy are cleared to be such themselves , ( viz. self-loving and ambitious , vain-gloryous and covetous , illiterate and sottish , impure and carnal , cruel and bloody , lying and blasphemous , prophane and sacrilegious , Heretical and Schismatical ) as Dr. Featly in his remarkeables , and that fraternity , by whom he , though dead , yet speaketh , in their patheticals have proclaimed the said ANABAPTISTS to be . MAL. 2.1 , 2.7 , 8 , 9. O ye priests this commandment is for you , &c. AND now O ye Disputers and Scribes of the Ashford Disputation , I might say not a little , and will say something ( how much I know not ) in discovery of your sacerdotall doings ( not to say dotings ) in the third piece of your pedorantical paper , wherin the only truely baptism , Church and Ministers of it are both declaimed against under the hatefull names of Heresie , Schism , Hereticks , such as from no other principles then self conceit , Ambition , vain-glory and covetuousnesse design the propagation of errors , by certain hypocritical pretences , obstinate , impudent , and audacious deportments , Seducers , whose society is to be shuned &c. * for thus , and much worse , to the rendring of us odious among your Gentry and Vulgar , and the hardning of their hearts against the truth , are we , whom you stile Anabaptists , bespattered by you An●●baptists in that Triobulary Treatise , intituled p. 20. A short discourse concerning the means of opposing Hereticks both in Disputation and preaching , alias in your title page , whereby it is evident both what , and whom you mean by the words Heresie , Heriticks viz. us and the way we walk in ) A pathetical Exhortation to the Pastors to oppose the growth of Anabaptism , the drift of it whether it be more to decline , or desire any more disputation with them , one can hardly discover , so doubtful is the sense of the Scribes that scraped it , sometimes as it were decrying disputation as dangerous , and that from which t is scarce possible to expect any good , and superscribing it self thus , viz. Why Hereticks are not to be disputed withall : sometimes as it were disputing for disputation again , as if it meant to move the Ministers , ●hough worsted , by no meanes to give out , and to make it good that much good may be expected from it , like Caesar at Rubicon with one foot out , saying yet I may go on , the other in , saying yet I may go back , bespeaking its patrons to be in a twitter , in a temper between Hawk and Buzzard , afraid to dispute too downrightly for disputation least that should ingage them another time , ashamed too directly to dispute down disputation , least it be thought they have no mind to it any more . But , to come to the thing it self , I confesse you have spoken Bonum , but not Bene , Rectum , but not Rect● ; it is a moddle of ( for the most part ) right , good , true , and honest matter , onely made use of either very simply or very subtly , to a bad end , viz. the provoking of the Priesthood ( no need to bid mad folks ●un ) to preach up a false , and oppose the practise of the true baptism . Secondly , most miserably misapplied ( if conscientiously and not cunningly it is the better ) to an improper subject and perverted the wrong way viz. to the fastning of the name Hereticks and Schismaticks , for non-conformity to the Clergy , upon those true Churches of Christ , for non-conformity to whom in opinion and practise ( if miscariage about baptism may properly be so stiled ) the Clergy are in very deed the trust Hereticks and Schismaticks in the world . I shall therefore in a serious survey and examine of what Heresie and Schism is , discover plainly , First that the people whom you call Anabaptists , upon account of meer dissent and separation from you in the point of baptism , are no Hereticks nor Schismaticks ; but the truest visible Church that Christ hath upon the earth . Secondly , that you the PPPriesthood of the Nations , who dissent from them in that point , are , as to that point at least , the veriest Hereticks and Schismaticks your selves . Thirdly , after some pathetical expostulation with your selves , addresse my self , by way of Peraphrase upon your own pathetical and paraenetical passages , pathetically to exhort the true Pastors , and paraenetically to perswade all people ( as you do yours to beware of us ) to beware of you , the spirituallity , by whom the way of truth is dispited , who though you disguise your selves under the name of Gods Clergy or Heritage for a while , yet will appear to be but cruel crushers of his true Clergy in the end . First , then let us see what Heresie and Schism is , and then who is a Schismatical Heretick in the doctrine of baptism , Heresie as to the Gospel is held ( and that truly by all manner of men I think ) the holding or maintaining any erroneous opinion in the faith and doctrine of the Gospel , contrary to that doctrine delivered by Christ and his Apostles in the primitive times , obstinately and pertinacously against all meanes that can be used towards conviction of the truth , Schism is division , or making of a rent fraction or faction in , or separation from the true Church , and from walking with them in the truth , by the holders or maintainers of such false doctrine or opinion ; and consequently Schismatical Hereticks , who ere they be , are such as are bewitched from the simplicity of the truth as it is in Jesus , and from the doctrine that was once received by the Church from him and his immediate Apostles , so as both to believe and practise contrarily thereunto , against all manifestations of the truth , whereby to reduce and reclaim them , and do also rend from and make a head against the true Church , and true head thereof Christ Jesus , separating themselves so as to have no fellowship or communion i. e. nor union of action , nor unity of affection with them that walk in truth . * Now whether it be you O PPPriests , who rantize infants or we , who baptize believers , that are thus gone off and divided from the primitive faith and practise , from the true head of that Church , from the true foundation i. e. the doctrine of the Apostles Eph. 2.20 . Heb. 6.1.2 . and from fellowship with , and conformity to the true Church in baptism and otherwise , is evident to him that is not blind or blear-eyed ; for verily the water baptism which we dispense is abundantly shewed above to be that one baptism Eph. 4. which was used in the primitive times , then which there is no other water baptism , enjoined or exemplified in the word as Christs ordinance to his disciples viz. the burying of new born babes i. e believers in water , and bringing them up again in token of Christs death , burial and resurrection , and of their dying to sin , and rising to newnesse of life , this I say is that one onely baptism the Churches then practised , and thus , and no otherwise do we at this day , for which the word is our warrant ; yea it is that faith which was once delivered unto the Saints , that we now contend for , and the words which were spoken before by the Apostles of the Lord , as we are specially injoined to do in these latter daies by both Peter and Iude , who foretold how they would be sleighted , as we see they now are , by the two Spiritualties viz. the Rantizer and the Ranter , the one Hereticizing in the excesse by adding a new thing , the other in the defect by owning nothing , both Schismatizing accordingly from the way of truth ; and howbeit after that way which you call Heresie , Schism , separation from the Church , and such like , so worship we God yet , as sure as the coats upon your back , you shall first or last , to your weal or wo , find that , as to the point of baptism , Churchfellowship and the supper also , it is no other then the way of truth we walk in : yea so far are we from erring , and Schismatizing from the Church , that we of all men do stand for a full reformation in faith , practise , doctrine , discipline , worship , manners , government and baptism according to the word of God , and the example of the best reformed Churches i. e. those mentioned in the word according to which we are all sworn to endeavour to reform , as we will not be justly charged with Perjury , Perfidiousnesse , and Prevarication , the guilt of all which how little the Orthodox , protesting , covenanting Clergy are clear of in the sight of God and man , is good for them to consider : yea conformity in all things to the primitive practise is that we plead for , presse after , and persue , and howbeit ( to the shame of his ignorance be it spoken ) Orthodox Mr. Baxter is pleased , among other sectaries , to charge the Anabaptists ( so he calls us that baptize aright ) as the Authors , and approvers of the horrible wickednesse of these times , and speaks of us as dispappointing , and destroying their hopes in point of reformation , to the grief of his heart , yet with grief of heart that the way of truth should be evil spoken of by him , by reason of such as do wickedly indeed , yet those lascivious waves , he laies to our score , are lesse approvvd on in our Churches , then in the purest Parish Church in all Christ'ndom , Kederminster not excepted ; yea I tell him ( and God I hope will one day seal it home upon his heart to the grief of it another way ) that the power and purity of Christs ordinances are a 1000 fold more strictly stickled for , according to the Covenant , by us , then by all those Orthodox ones he talks of , who ( the more shame for them ) do so zealously , and constantly oppose us : we therefore cannot rationally be denominated Hereticks and Schismaticks in separating from , and practising contrary to you in the point of baptism , so long as we keep close to the primitive truth , gladly both preaching and receiving the word as t is preacht by Peter Act. 2. saying repent and be baptized * every one of you , repenting , and being baptized accordingly , and after that continuing in the rest of the Apostles doctrine and fellowship in breaking of bread and prayers : and though we draw never so many disciples from you after us , yet the man is out of his Christian wits , that deputes and declares this to be Heresie and Schism , sith so far are we herein from rending from , and refusing to be reduced to the Church , that we indeed earnestly endeavour to reduce them to the true Church , to the true head Christ , the true constitution , the true Baptism and Gospel order , from which they are rent , and run astray , wondring after a false Church , a false head viz. a Lording Priesthood , and Parochial posture , both which derive all their being from Dio●rephes , i. e. his prating Preheminence the Pope : But now as for your selves , the PPPriesthood of the Nations , who mostly deny not , but that the primitive baptism was of believers , and dispenst in Rivers , or places of much water , which was needlesse if sprinkling was then the way , you have a thing among you indeed , which you call Baptism , but t is not that one Baptism , that old Baptism then urged and used , but another , a new Baptism , and yet to say the truth neither another nor A new Baptism , but A-no-Baptism , Rantism , Babism , a toy of your own taking up by tradition from your forefathers , but not the first fathers that were the founders of the Christian Church , for you find it not there , but fetch it further from thence , by such consequence as , besides the remotnesse of it , is too weak and rotten to carry it downwards to these times ; you are they that dissent , and rend from the truth in this point of baptism , and draw all the world to Sectarize , and erre after you by a law , by your subpaena directories ; yea you pretendedly reforming Presbyters , who peculiarize the term o● Orthodox to your selves , even you , as to the right administration of the outward right of baptism , are not a whit lesse Erratical , Heretical , Schismatical and Heterodox then the Pope , for as he hath another baptism then that , which was in the primitive times viz. infant ●antism , which , by the mouth of his cardinal Bellarmine , he confesses to be but a tradition of the Church , so you have no other then the same , yea you own that for good baptism , which is done at Rome , or else how to prove the Popish Bishops to be baptized themselves , that baptized , and ordained you Presbyters , you plainly know not ; yet you falsely father it upon Christ , and fain it to be an ordinance of his , then which nothing is more clear then that it is not . And as in point of baptism you all erre , not knowing , or at least not doing according to the Scriptures , all means used to reduce you thereunto notwithstanding , so in th supper , and many more matters pertaining to that visible Church order that was in those times , as namely impropriating to your selves sole power of speaking in your Churches , i. e. steeple-houses , so that your members may well say men mutire nefas ? it is not for them to open their mouthes there , unlesse to answer when you catechise them ; whereas then all the Church were to covet to prophesie i. e. to speak mutually to the exhortation , edification ▪ and comfort each of other , and being gifted , might all ( women onely excepted ) prophesie one by one , and every one minister as of the ability God gave them , great or small , that God in all things might be glorified , and all judge of the doctrine delivered ; but with you what doctrine ere ye deliver , men may try it if they will , but must take it whether they will or no , the mouths of all must be muzzled up , save such as ( in your sense ) are ministers i. e. have some Parchment Preachment orders to shew from such , as can shew their orders from his Highnesse the head of the Church , not Christ but his Holinesse the Pope , who had his from the beast Rev. 17. who had his from the devill Rev. 13. yea verily , as to the external face , and fashion of the first Churches , you have altogether altered it , from what it was , and brought in a businesse of your own heads , being all gone aside , and altogether become vain in your wayes , as to your administrations of Gospel ordinances , so that there is none of you that are in the right way of the primitive Churches , no not one : yea ye are separated from and make a head against the true head of the Church Christ Jesus , and take upon you to head the Church your selves , for this is not the fault of P the Pope onely ; but of PP i. e. you Prelates and Presbyters too , who howbeit you seem to throw off that supremacy , or headship which the Pope had once , and laies claim to still in the protestant part of Christ'ndom , yet in your several Christ'ndoms you have been ( not nominally but ) really as supreme in Church work as he , and that not over the people onely , but civil powers also , to whom in all cases Ecclesiasticall and civill , though you say you grant the headship or Supreame Government under Christ , yet how doth that appear , sith they only Corrective , but you Directive , till of late , have done all ? for the Bishops , and Sinods , and General Convocations of the Clergy , and assemblies of the Kirk , seeundum te , must determine what is to be done by Magistrates in Church affairs , and they do it accordingly ; The Priests must give out the word and sentence what is the worship , the way , the faith , the truth , what Heresy , and Schism , who are Hereticks and Schismaticks , and then the Princes in all their Dominions establish the one , and root out the other , as Rogues , at their appointment , in which cases , saving the bare name of supremacy over the Churches , which hath been allowed , it is difficult to me to discern , whether Christian Kings have not been , as of old under the Popedome , so more lately under the very Protestant Clergy , as the Bosholder under the Constable , at his discretion & direction to whip the beggars : and though you may say , and so saies the Pope too , that you claim to head and order the Church directive no otherwise then under Christ , yet in very deed as he , for all his saying , so you have presumed to set your selves above Christ , the only head , Counseller , Lord and Lawgiver to his Church , for as the Pope hath done no more then broken his lawes , changed his ordinances , trampled his truth , made void his commandments , and subpaena damni Temporalis , et eternae damnationis , imposed mens Traditions arrogantly in their stead , so you in your severall lines have done no lesse ; yea you also make people to erie with all your might , and whatever tender consciences find Christ piping to the contrary in his word , yet if they dance not after you pipe , when it sounds to the tune of Tiches , and put not into your moneths , you cry peace , but bite with your teeth , and prepare war against them : Mich. 3.5 . possessing the world with prejudice against them as a sort of seditious Sectaries , damnnble Hereticks , and Schismaticks ; yea ( exceptis excipiendis ) saving some few scatterings here and there of more sober and moderate minded Ministers , like so many graines of salt to keep the rest from stinking too much in these states , where you have , or would have raigned , who have not been so hot spur as their fellowes , by the good will of P. the Presbiter , as well as of P. the Prelate and P the Pope , many an honest mans native countrey , for non-conformity to his Gangraenaticall domination , should ere this , have been made too hot to hold him : so far therefore as separa - from the true church and her orders may denominate a people Heretical Schismaticks , and Divines themselves place the Nature of Heresie much in seperation and Schism , the Denomination seems to be your due , O P P Priests , who are departed from the primitive church , and not ours , for departing from you , ye are are those Schismatical Teachers , that are rent all from the primitive plainesse of the Gospel , and present pompousnesse of each others way , and have seduced the whole world into spiritual thraldome , idolatry , and superstition , and inticed them into a carnal liberty of calling all things according as your carnal ends , and interests impose the names of Heresie or truth upon them : you are S S She that having got the good liking of the Kings and Kingdomes of the earth to confide in you , do close the eyes of their judgements , as Dr. Featley faines we do , with your birdlime of Schism from the true church , and head thereof Christ Jesus , and bewitcht them into an implicit submission to Papism , Arch-bishopism , Oecumaenical Synodism , Provincial C●assism , and so lead them as you lift into Anti-gospelism , Antiscripturism &c. making a prey of them , and though Featly had the faculty of faining the Baptists to be such , yet you are indeed devisers of new religions , and Spiritual Impostors , falsely pretending to Christ as the Patron , and Authorizer of your new doctrines , of which Paedo-baptism is one , which because there is not the least dram of evidence for it in the word of Christ , therefore when people begin to question it , you amuse the vulgar with the names of some divine Authors or other , not Peter , nor Paul &c. but St Austin , St Gregory , S Chrysostome &c. at Rome his Holiness the Pope , the holy Mother , the Catholique Church , Ghostly Fathers &c. and in places where those subterfuges are not regarded , Reverend Sinods of grave Orthodox Divines , Ministers of Christ , Suffrages of all the learned Divines in the Reformed Churches , * &c. and this you do to secure your Tenets from the hazards of disputes , and exempt your persons , and actions from the rest of examination , as if there were such infallibility herein , that it is no lesse then blaspemy to doubt , or call in question the Dictates or Directories &c. of such and such : thus bearing your selves up with bombasting termes of Fathers , Spiritual , Ius divinum &c. you gain to the captivating of the reason of men so far , that they resign up themselves , jurare in v v vostram sententiam , and will be as their Priests are , and never believe but that they believe the truth , when all this while there is nothing but humane authority ( and humanum est errare ) for most things you do . yea you are indeed the greatest Schismaticks , or Rentmakers * in the seamlesse coat of Christ , that the Earth bears ; you are they that have caused divisions , and offences contrary to that doctrine , which was at first received at Rome and in all Churches , and by good words and fair speeches , viz. decency , order &c. have deceived the hearts of the simple , so as to make more conscience of serving those belly gods the Priests , then the Lord Jesus according to his own will , therefore when you talk so much to us of the Church , and your Church , crying out ( as the Pope does against the Bishops for theirs , and the B●shops against you Presbyters , for your departure from them ) Hereticks , Hereticks , that disturb the peace of the Church , forsake the Church , infringe the unity of the Church , yet I say what Church , so long as there is no other Church constitution among you to this day then that of parishes , into which the Pope put all Christ'ndome ? what Church , so long as the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles , on which every true Church is built † , is cut off , disclaimed , and exploded , and neither the word purely preached , nor the Sacraments duly administred , which by Calvin * and Featley themselves are both made such true notes of the true visible Church , that wherever they are there is the true Church , and where not there 's no true Church , what ever there may be in pretence : yea verily so far are you from due administration of the sacraments ( giving the Supper to such as were never at all , much lesse truly , baptized , & many of you Presbyterians not administring it at all to your flocks , whom you contend were truely initiated into your Church by baptism ) that indeed as you have substituted infant rantism instead of it , so you preach down that due administration of baptism and the Supper , which according to the primitive pattern Acts 2. is at this day to be found amongst us , withall the vehemency you can , proclaiming us Schismatical hereticks for declining your disorderly administrations , and , according to our covenant , pressing on to that purity of administration of Gospell ordinances , which lies now in such plain English before mens eyes , that all your glosses wil beguile them but little longer : there is no danger therefore of being rent from the Church of Christ , in departing from participation with you in your oppositions of the truth , therefore never glory so much in these vain lying words , the Church of God , the Church of God , which is indeed the Common tone of all you Romanists each to other , in your rendings each from other , for there is none of you all three have a true visible Church of Christ among you , nor yet right any administration of the things you call Sacraments , whether we speak of either baptism or the Supper . My answer then to the whole PPPriesthood of Christ'ndom , even ye Protestant Clergy also , from all whom , as well as from the Pope , we who are fictitiously stiled Anabaptists , and charged as Schismatical Hereticks for so doing , and troublers of the unity of the Church , are departed , shall be the very same , that you Protestant Clergy do make in your own defence , when you are charged by your old father Caiphas , and his Catholicks , as Hereticks and Schismaticks in your rending from them , and as infringers of the unity of their Church , yea in the very words of Calvin , to whom you my Ashford opponents are pleased to send us , who saith thus of them ( as I do with him of you all ) Inst. l. 4. c. 2. S. 2 Magnifice quidem &c. They do indeed gloriously set out their Church unto us , that there should seem to be no other Church in the world , and afterward , as though the victory were gotten , they decree that all be Schismaticks that dare withdraw themselves from the obedience of that Church that they paint out , and that all be Hereticks that da●e once mutter against the doctrine thereof . But by what proofs do they confirm they have the true Church ? S. 1. If the true Church be the pillar and stay of the truth , it is certain , that there is no Church , where lying and falshood have usurped the dominion . S. 3. There is therefore no cause , why they should any longer go forward to deceive by p●etending a false colour under the name of the Church , which we do reverently esteem , as becommeth us ; but when they come to the definition of it , not onely water ( as the common saying is ) cleaveth unto them , but they stick fast in their own mire , because they put a stinking harlot in place of the holy spouse of Christ : that this putting in of a changling should not deceive us , beside other admonitions , let us remember this also of Augustine , for , speaking of the Church , he saith : it is it that is sometime darkned and covered with multitude of offences , as with a cloud : sometime in calmnesse of time appeareth quiet and ●ree : sometime is hidden and troubled with waves of tribulations and temptations . He bringeth forth examples , that oftentimes the strongest pillars either valiantly suffered banishment for the faith , or were hidden in the whole world . S. 4. In like manner the Romanists do vex us , and make afraid the ignorant with the name of the Church , whereas they be the deadly enemies of Christ. Therefore although they pretend the Temple , the Priesthood , and other such outward shews , this vain glistering , wherewith the eyes of the simple be dazled ought nothing to move us to grant that there is a Church , where the Word of God doth not appear ; for this is the perpetual mark wherewith God hath marked them to be his . He that is of the truth ( saith he ) heareth my voice . Again , I am the good shepheard , and I know my sheep , and am known of them , my sheep hear my voice , and I know them , and they follow me , And a little before he had said , that the sheep follow their shepheard , because they know his voice : but they follow not a stranger , but run away from him because they know not the voice of strangers . Why are we therefore wilfully mad in judging the Church , whereas Christ hath marked it with an undoubtful sign , which wheresoever it is seen cannot deceive , but that it certainly sheweth the Church to be there , but where it is not , there remaineth nothing that can give a true signifition of the Church , for Paul rehearseth that the Church was builded , not upon the judgements of men , nor upon Priesthoods , but upon the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets , but rather Jerusalem is to be severally known from Babilon , and the Church of Christ from the conspiracy of Satan , by that difference wherewith Christ hath made them different one from another . He that is of God ( saith he ) heareth the words of God , ye therefore hear not , because ye are not of God. In summe , forasmuch as the Church is the kingdom of Christ , and he reigneth not but by his word , can it be now doubtful to any man , but that those be the words of lying , by which Christs kingdome is feigned to be without his scepter , that is to say without his holy word ? 5 But now whereas they accuse us of Schism and Heresie , because we both teach a contrary doctrine to them , and obey not their lawes , and have our assemblies to prayers , to baptism , to the ministration of the supper , and other holy doings , severally from them : it is indeed a very sore accusation , but such as needeth not a long or laborsome defence : they are called Hereticks and Schismaticks , which making a division , do break in sunder the communion of the Church . And this communion is holden together with true bounds , that is to say , the agreement of true doctrine , and brotherly charity , whereupon Augustine putteth this difference betwixt Hereticks and Schismaticks , that Hereticks indeed do with false doctrine corrupt the purenesse of faith , but the Schismaticks sometime even where there is like faith , do break the bond of fellowship . But this is also to be noted , that this conjoining of charity so hangeih upon the unity of Faith , that faith ought to be the beginning thereof , the end , and finally the only rule . Let us therefore remember that so oft as the unity of the Church is commended unto us , this is required , that while our minds agree in Christ , our wills also may be joined together with mutual well willing in Christ , Therefore Paul when he exhorteth us to that well willing , taketh for his foundation that there is one God , one Faith and one Baptism . Yea wheresoever he teacheth us to be of one mind , and of one will , he by and by addeth in Christ , or according to Christ , meaning , that it is a factions company of the wicked , and not agreement of the faithful which is without the word of the Lord. S. 6. Cyprian also following Paul deriveth the whole fountain of the agreement of the Church , from the onely Bishoprick of Christ , he afterward addeth the Church is but one , which spreadeth abroad more largely into a multitude with increase of fruitfulnesse , like as there be many sun beams , ●ut one light ; and many branches of a tree , but one body grounded upon a fast root , and when many streams do flow from one fountain , although the number seem to be scattered abroad by largeensse of overflowing plenty , yet the unity abideth in the original , take away a beam of the sunne from the body , the unity suffers no division , break a branch from the tree , the broken branch cannot spring , cut off the stream from the spring head , being cut off it drieth up , so also the Church being overspread with the light of the Lord , is ex●ended over the whole world : yet there is but one light that is spread every where . Nothing could be said more fitly to expresse that undividual knitting together , which all the members of Christ have one with another ; we see how he continually calleth us back to the very head . Whereupon he pronounceth that Heresies and Schismes do arise hereof , that men do not return to the original of truth , nor do seek that head , nor keep the doctrine of the heavenly master , Now let them go and cry that we be Hereticks that have departed from their Church : sith there hath been no cause of our estranging from them but this one , that they can in no wise abide the pure professing of the truth : but I tell not how they have driven us out with cursings and cruel execrations , Which very self-doing doth abundantly enough acquit us , unlesse they will also condemn the Apostles for Schismaticks , with whom we have all one cause . Christ I say did foresay to his Apostles , that the time should come when they should be cast out of the synagogues for his name sake . And those Synagogues of which he speaketh , were then accounted lawful Churches . Sith therefore it is evident that we be cast out , and we be ready to shew that the same is done for the names sake of Christ ; truly the cause ought first to be inquired of , before that any thing be determined upon us , either one way or other . Howbeit , if they will I am content to discharge them of this point . For it is enough for me , that it behoved that we should depart from them that we might come to Christ. S. 10. But we see how each where they cry out , that their assemblies are unholy , to which it is no more lawful to consent then it is to deny God. Therefore it is needful to depart from the consent , of those assemblies , which were nothing else but a wicked conspiracy against God. In like manner if any man acknowledge the assemblies at these daies being defiled with idolatry , superstition and wicked doctrine , to be such in whose full communion a Christian man ought to continue even to the consent of doctrine , he shall greatly erre . S. 12. Whereas therefore we will not simply grant to the Papists the title of the Church , we do not therefore deny that there be Churches among them : but onely we contend for the true and lawful ordering of the Church : which is required in the communion both of the Sacraments , which are the signes of profession , and also specially of doctrine . Hereby therefore appeareth , that we do not deny but that even under his tyranny remain Churches ▪ but such as he hath profaned with ungodlinesse full of sacriledge , such as he hath afflicted with outragious dominations , such as he hath corrupted and in a manner killed with evil and damnable doctrines , as with poisoned drinks : such wherein Christ lieth half buried , the Gospel overwhelmed , godlinesse banished , the worshiping of God in a manner abolished : such finally wherein all things are so troubled , that therein rather appeareth the face of Babilon then of the holy City of God. Therefore because these marks are blotted out , which in this discourse we ought principally to have respect unto , I say , that every one of their assemblies , and the whole body wanteth the lawful form of a Church . These very words of Calvin , which are your defence , and mine too against the Pope ( O ye Protestant Priesthood ) are mine also against you , when you clamour against us as Schismaticks , for separating from your Nationall Churches , and calling as many out with us as we can , viz. because you two PPs as well as the Popish Priesthood , are not Syon , as you suppose , but two of those three parts of that great City , Mystery Babylon the great , the Mother of Harlotry and Heresie , that hath reigned over Kings and Kingdomes of the Earth : You hold not unity with the head , you return not to the fountain of the truth , reform not by the Primitive standard , but start aside like a broken bow ; you hear not the voice of our Prophet in all things he saies , but make void his lawes ; you walk not in those scorned , mean , base waies , which he hath chosen , but are they rather that count them base , and so we can no more ioin with you then deny Christ : & so far are we from being Hereticks and Schismaticks thereupon , that we rather truly declare you such as stand divided from the Root , the Sun , the Fountain , as well as all three one from another ; yea what need we any further witness that you three Hierarchies are all Hereticks , and Schismaticks , since the whole World hears it aloud out of your own mouthes ? the Bishop saith the Presbyter , as to his Government , is a Schismaticall Heretick , the Presbyter saith the Bishop is so , the Pope saies they are both so , and they both say he is so , and therefore I say they are all three so , if we may credit what they say among themselves : you stand all divided from Christ , and the Apostles , and now God hath justly divided you into three parts , and divided you three miserably each against other among your selves , yea and sub-divided you ; i. e. divided his people , and well nigh all other people from you , so that though you labour in the fire of wrath and rage , to bring them back to unity with you , and their old blind conformity to your waies ; yet you weary your selves for very vanitie , for the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord , as the waters cover the Sea : even so O Lord divide their tongues more and more , and let great BBBabel come down daily by the division of Languages , that the whole Earth , which was once of one Language , and one speech , even that of Babylon , may at last after all , and by all this diversity , learn all that one pure Language of the Land of Canaan : yea come ( my beloved ) hast'n this blessed work , and be like a swift Roe , or young Hart upon these Mountains of Bether * . So having discovered what Heresie , and Schism , and who the Hereticks and Schismaticks are , I come now to discourse o're again , in a little plainer way , your own discourse concerning them , and the means of opposing them ; which ( as I said above ) is a parcell of pretty right matter , if spoken of the Pope , and his PPPriesthood , to whom of right and most properly it appertains ; yea quid rides O S S Sacerdos ? mutato nomine de te fabula narratur Thy own tale is a fit rod for thy own taile , thou hast sharpen'd thine Arrows , and bert thy Bow , to shoot at a Pigeon , and kild a Crow : for verily thou art the man to whom all those properties of the Heretick , and Schismatick propounded by thy self , do much more aptly and exactly agree then to him thou talkest of ; a little translating , a little trimming , a little turning of it towards the true subject , will make every tittle of that tattle of thine to be the truth , which is but a peice of fained falshood as thou tellest it of the Baptists : what thou hast reported lacks but to be retorted ( O Priesthood ) with a little amplification , and a right application of it to thy self , and then omne tulit punctum , it hits the nail on the head , and tels no●hing but the truth indeed . Thus then distinguishing your Patheticall piece ( O ye Ashford Opponents ) which I mean shall be my Text , all along by a different carracter from my own peraphrasticall amplification , and genuine application thereof , so that both you and the World may read ( as it were in text letters ) your own abstract from that of mine , when you please ; and signing the Titles of the CCClergy , whether true or surreptitious , with three letters in the front , as C. C. C. PPP &c. most commonly , when I speak of ●hem in the lump , to denote the three PPParts into which that great City B B Babylon , which they make , stands divided , I proceed as followeth . That Heresies must be the Apostle hath said , yet it makes no more for a tolleration of them ( in the true Church I mean , though others mean in the civil state ) than that of our Saviour of offences , saying ( foreseeing no question how by means of the Clergies crying out Heresie , Heresie , Schism against the way of truth , being once turned aside to Heresie themselves , the world would be offended at his little ones for walking in it ) They must come , but wo to the man by whom they come : the Apostle reckons Heresies among the works of the flesh . Idolatry , Witchcraft &c. Gal. 5.20 . which alone is argument sufficient against the Patronage , and Invitation of them , unless withal license in the true Church should be given to all other carnal sins ; why should the Church of God upon Earth make much of those against whom the Kingdome of Heaven shall be shut ? her pale is not so strong to keep them out from breaking in upon her , like wild bores , and wolves to spoil , and wast her , but her good will should not be so great to them , as to wellcome them in to her fellowship , till they repent from their dead works of superstition , bloody tenet of persecution for cause of conscience , worshipping God after mens traditions , blaspheming the name of God , and his Tabernacle , and them that dwell in heaven , trampling the holy City , Heresie , Schism from the primitive truth &c. Neverthelesse , howbeit to tolerate and harbour Hereticks in communion with them whilest they oppose the true way of Christ , would be an error , and an evill too intollerable in a true Church of Christ , yet I hold that opinion of the C C Clergy not onely intollerably Heretical in it self , but intollerably hurtful also to themselves that Hereticks may not be tolerated in a civil state , for if Fines , Prisons , Banishments , Racks , W●ips , Tortures , headings , hangings , burnings , and such like punishments with the civil sword were the due of every Heretick , and Schismatick in the faith , as the C C Clergy have for ages and Generations born the world in hand that they are , to the causing of all these their national Church censures to be inflicted on the Saints , when they have once blindly sentence them to be Schismaticks to the civil power , if this I say were the due of every Heretick or Schismatick , and every true Heretick and Schismatick had his due too , good Lord how have the C C Clergy condemned themselves out of their own mouthes to devastation , when the civil powers shall find them to be the Arch-Hereticks in the world , if taking them at their word , they shall do with them , as they say they ought to do in this case concerning others ? but God forbid that with what judgement they judge , they should be judged , and with what measure they meet , it should be measured to them again at our suggestion , if their own Cheek-by-jole carriage to the Stern-men of the State do not pull it unavoidably upon themselves ; yea verily though as far as those that oppose themselves against the truth of Christ , they may well challenge the name of Schismaticall Hereticks , and though Amen might justly be said by the Magistrate in this point to the opinion of Gangraena , and his Gang , and might Amen be said to his wise wishes as concerning us , who teach and practise baptism in its primitive fashion , we could expect to be suffered in the Common-wealth no more then High-way Murderers , yet dare we not desire their ex●irpation out of any of their native rights , in the several states , wherein they are , nor such uncivill suppression of them , meerly for their erroneous Tenets , as they have sollicited the higher powers to concerning us ; we have not so learned Christ , nor would they if they had heard him , and had been taught by him as the truth is in Jesus : for howere it comes to passe that the C C Clergy ( whose own the worst would he , if that were true , and execution done accordingly ) are so besotted as to believe that Hereticks and Schismaticks from the faith , men of false waies , worships , religions , though elsewise never fo peaceable and innocent must not onely be dischurched , but discommunicated also from the patronage of the civil power , and cut off from the priviledges of other Subjects , yet neither Christ nor any of his Apostles , as from him , gave any order for such rigid rejection , indeed the Apostle Paul wills in his Epistle to Titus cap. 3. who was a Church officer , that a Heretick after a second and third admonition be rejected , i. e. from the Church , and Gal. 5.12 . wishes that they were cut off from the Church , that did trouble the Church , and Rev. 2.20.21 . the Church of Thyatira was reproved for suffering that woman Iezebel , which calleth her self a prophetesse * , to teach and seduce his servants to fornication , i. e. false worships , &c. but it will no● follow therefore that such may not have license to live civilly in civil states ; for the weapons of the Churches warfare , wherewith she is to fight against Heresies , and which she is ever to have in readinesse to revenge all disobedience to Christ by , are no● carnall 2 Cer. 10.4 , 5 , 6. not such as are used by the officers of States , but onely spirituall , as admonition reproof , and in case of obstinacy , putting out from among them , delivering up to Satan , and not delivering up to the secular power , as the Popish Priesthood used to do * , when any of their creatures , specially of their Clerico-creatures turned Hereticks , i. e. departed from their Heresies to the truth , saying pray take him into your power , and be merciful to him , meaning hang or burn him for a Heretick . The Church I say is neither to use the carnal weapons of the State , nor yet to stirr up the State so to use them on her and truths behalf , as to imprison , fine , hang , burn or banish false worshippers , unbelievers , misbelievers , or Hereticks , further then they are withall ( as by meer unbelief they are not ) offenders against the civil State ; I find the Lord Christ foretelling by himself , and his Apostles , that for the most part ( the more is the pitty ) the Rulers , Kings , Governours , and Princes of the world would be such enemies against his Gospel , that his Disciples should be ●ald before them as evill doers for his names sake Matth. 10.18 . that not many mighty , and noble men would own his truth 1 Cor. 1.26 . that rich men would oppresse the Church , and draw them before their Judgement seats , and blaspheme that worthy name , wherby the poor in this world , which commonly are the richest in faith , are called Ia. 2.6 . that the Kings of the very Christian Nations would throw down their crowns , and give up their power , and strength unto the beast , & commit fornication with the W W Whore , and at her instigation make war with the Lamb , and at last be overcome by him , Rev. 17.14.17 . and be put down together with all their rule , authority , and power , as very enemies , though once his ordinance , under his feet , 1 Cor. 15.24.25 . I find also Ephe. 4. that he hath set in his Church Apostles , Pastors &c. for the work of the Ministery , and affairs of it but I no where find in his will and Testament , that Christ intended the Magistracy , as his Ordinance ( though undoubtedly in other cases the supreme ordinance of God to men , whether in the Church or out of it , for civil good ) to officiate so immediately in matters of Religion , faith church order , &c. as to execute Church-discipline , Church censure , for meer Church disorders , Church Divisions , Church offences , or so as to make all men within their jurisdiction ( and yet , though their Churches be no true Churches neither , so the CCClergy would have it ) to believe as the Church believes , worship as the Church worships , and be members of the Church , whether they will or no ; if not to pray with them , yet at least to pay to them , or else to be excommunicated out of all they have , and , under the name of Hereticks , dischurcht out of the world : for so verily they do ( doctrinally at least ) who teach such false doctrine , that men of false relegions , whether heathens , Jewes , Turks , or Pagans , or men erring most grosly about the true , as Papists , or whatever else , though never so submissive in all civil things to the civil Powers , yet may not lawfully be licensed to live in civil States , or in any Common-wealth under the Sun : for by the same reason that Iews , Turks , Heathens , Hereticks may not without sin , be tolerated in one Nation , but must ( ex officio ) be rooted out of it , upon that meer account of denying and defying Christ , which is as high as ever any Heretick went , they may not without sin be permitted to be in another , and so either some nations m●st sin in allowing these to live in them , or else , though de facto they cannot by reason of their number , yet de jure they ought , as far as they well can , by Kings and Princes , among whom few or none are so well acquainted , as they should , with what is Heresie , and what truth , to be driven quite out of the world ; and so the poor Iewes whose conversion the Priests pray for with much zeal and compassion , must in quiet live no where at all , that they may be converted , but must belike be turned altogether into the sea . Besides the notion of their being Christians adds nothing to mens power as Magistrates , so but that if such magistrates as are Christians , are Church officers , as Magistrates , then other Magistrates , as heathen Magistrates , must be Church officers as well as they , and then how well that Christian Church is likely to be served and governed , whose head Church-officers are Heathens , a fool may see . Yet whether the Magistracy be Heathens , or Christians it matters not to the Church , so long as they are the ministers of God and Christ to them , and others too for civill good , to punish evil doers , that are injurious against the common , or any mans proper weal , Church-member or other , in body , goods , or name , by stealing , lying , murder , defiling , defaming , defrauding &c. whereby any are prejudic'd in point of their outward well being : mean while whether he be the minister of God onely or Christ also , and that not onely as God , but God man also it matters not , so long as he is an ordinance to us for civil good : * so that if any matter of Division of inheritances , or of wrong and wicked lewdnesse be brought before the Magistrates , committed whether by a church-member or any other it is all one , reason wills that the Magistrate should hear it , and ( be they Heathens or be they Christians who stand before him ) determine and destribute according to the equity of his civil Law , and as much as Mr. Baxter looks askew at this assertion p. 120. as if he thought the Magistrate were to do a Pagan no right against a Christian , without partiality , not favouring a Christian in a civil cause against a Heathen , a Turk , an Egyptian , a Pagan , so as to take the Christians part , further then the equity of his cause in hand may justly call for it , more then the others , though the Magistrate himself also be a christian , and a brother to the christian , whose cause depends before him , or a member of the self same congregation with him , not balking to do civil justice against Church-members , they deserving punishment , as if the church were exempted from his jurisdiction in civil things , because he is no christian , but a heathen , nor yet denying to do right to church-members , if they be injured by others , for if he do any of this , I am sure he does no justice in his place , whereupon Gallio , the Depuputy Go●ernour of Achaia , who was not a little to be commended in one thing was no lesse to blame in another , Act. 18.17 . in that when the Greeks in a rude and barbarous manner took Sostenes the chief Ruler of the Synagogue , and beat him , for letting Paul preach in it , before his face , and before the very judgement Seat too , yet he cared for none of those things , for those were the things that fell duly and directly under his cognizance , as he was a magistrate , and so the minister of God to men for good , whether they be Christs disciples or no , for the redresse of such civil abuses ; neither is Christ yet in his own person , Luke 12.13.14 . nay nor yet by any Church-officers of his ( qua sic ) unlesse they be civil Magistrates also , and then as in that capacity they must do that right that concerns them as such , as meer church-officers to be judge in those outward cases , and as therein the outward man onely is concerned , for then Paul , one of the chief Apostles , and officers of the Church , being then present , might have taken upon him in the behalf of Sostenes , and himself , as the Pope and the P P Priesthood do for the most part in their religions , to have determined for themselves in that civill dissention , but Christ as man , and his church , as his Church , are yet no judgers , nor dividers over men , but the Magistrate by Gods , and if I say by Christs appointment it hurts us not , is made as onely in such , so the only judge and divider in such civil matters ; but if it be a question , and a brabble about Heathenism , Turcism , Iudaism , Christianism , and about Religion , worship , and faith and Iesus , and words , and names as Antinomists Arminians , Anabaptists , Pelagians , Socinians , Anti-christians , Pedobaptists , Sectaries , &c. and about his law , and about Heresie , and spiritual Truth , and Schism in the Church , and Ministry , and such like , about which the eares of the civil powers have been d●nd by the usual addresses of the PPPriesthood unto them for help against Hereticks and Schismaticks , and by their hideous outcries viz. of the Prelates against the Presbyters , saying , help O King , and the Presbyters against the Sectaries , help O Parliament , all will be overspread with a Gangrene of Heresie , Murder , Murder , &c. O ye Magistrates restrain dipping in cold water , as you will save the lives of your subjects , and such stuff , and felly as is powred out to the Magistrate by the Minister against men more true to Christ , and Magistracy then himself ; I humbly conceive the Magistrate may lawfully , and more acceptably to God then otherwise , save himself so much labour , as to let these matters alone : yea he may do well to see , that whatever Religion men be of , that are under his civil power in each state , whether Iewish , Turkish , Heathenish , Popish , Prelatical , Presbyterian , or Independent , may not be injurious each to other , without satisfaction , in civil matters , and to see that none commit any uncivil actions , that are contrary to that common honesly and righteousnesse among men , which men as magistrates , are set to vindicate * , to see that none live ( be they of this or that Religion ) dishonestly without correction , to see that none usurp Dominion over each others faith , so as to make all men believe as some do , whether they see ground to believe so yea or no , by the civil sword , to see that , in order to their own eternal good , they find out , and walk in the way of truth themselves as it is in Jesus , and when they are once assured that they are in the truth themselves , to let that truth be verbally declared per se , or per alios , as much as they please , but not forced upon others , as their faith , further then the light of preachings and discourses may prevail to fasten it on others consciences ; and to see that even enemies to the Gospel , and true Church may have no more then the weapons of the Churches warfare , which are not carnal , used towards them to make them friends , and as to those , who walk in truth , whoever they are , or shall but be supposed by the successive representatives , Princes or Powers , to walk in the way of truth , to see that they be countenanc't , but not too much maintenanc't , because Christs disciples , nor cookt up to all the honour , and preferment , and places of trust , and advantage , above their fellow subjects , to the ingendring of jealousies , and emulations in others , that may be happily , though not so neer the truth of Christ , yet as trusty to the State as themselves ; for that too often choaks the Church * but onely that with an indifferent , impartial hand , as men , whether in Church or out , being otherwise honest , and able , and of publique spirits , not selfish , nor covetous , nor cruel &c. may seem fit to be intrusted with such , and such places , so they may be chosen , and disposed of thereunto ; in a word to see that such as make prayers , and supplications , and intercessions , and giving of thanks for all men , for Kings , and such as are in authority ( living in all godlinesse and honesty ) may as well as others , and others also as well as they ( living soberly and honestly , though not Godly in Christ Jesus , nor worshipping in way of truth , but falsly ) may live a quiet , and peaceable life without persecution as to confiscation , bonds , or death , for doing and denying according to the dictates of their own , though yet blinded , conscience , and that men of all Religions , may live without molestation one from another , any more then by meer manifestations of their light one to another at seasonable times , in wayes of query , disputation , and preaching , and then to leave all men to worship God according to their several wayes , even misbelievers , Hereticks and Iewes themselves , and others that yet believe not in Christ , but deny him , till the Lord lend them light by the word of truth , and to stand or fall to their own master Christ Jesus , to whom every conscience shall give account of it self at last , who , if any man hear his words , and believe not , nor receives , but rejects them , judges him not here , either by himself , or the civil magistrate , or by his Church , any further then to non-communion with them , yet by the word that he hath spoken unto him will judge every man at the last day Thus it is most evident the magistrate whether Christian or Heathen is to do , and not otherwise viz. to give protection to men , as men , ( living honestly , soberly and justly ) without respect to their Religions , whether true or false : And as to Religions , to allow Tolleration to all men to practise according to their principles , the practise of whose principles is not directly destructive to the true Religion , common honesty , civillity , morallity , righteousnesse , and the peace and safety of the Common-wealth , as some mens principles are , if put in practise , yet verily I know none , among Christians at least , save those of the two Spiritualties vix . the Rantizing PPPriest that in his precincts ( which is the whole world , could he catch it ) would have no tolleratian for any way of worship but his own , and the Ranting Prophet , who would have toleration of all and more too , not onely all Religions , but all , as well unciuill , unnatural , lewd , abominable , as irreligious actions , which nature it self cries shame on among beasts , & magistracy finds it self an ordinance of God to give correction to , among heathens ; for those men are now acting upon the stage , of whom Iude speaks when he saies Iude 10. what they know naturally as bruit beasts in those things they corrupt themselves : the principles of that old PPPriest and this new Prophet , y if practised in the hight of them , are utterly inconsistent with the standing of truth in the world untrampled ( viz. that of the Priest ) and also with the standing of very manhood among men , of civility in civil states , of the common-health of the Common-wealth it self ( viz. that of the Prophet ) the one is so far from owning any power to be a terror to evil works and incouragement to good , that despising all Government and speaking evill of dignities he holds that there is at all neither good nor evil , nor better nor worse amongst works , but all alike ; and then good Lord how fast must iniquity , dishonesty , unrighteousnesse , and incontinency thrive and abound upon earth to the ripening of 〈◊〉 for the sickle when it shall be acted with allowance from such a principle as this viz. that there is now no iniquity at all ? this man would have the civil power allow all Religions , and good Manners too , but allowes of none , at least thinks he needs use none himself , and is for a Toleration of all truth in the world , though all truth is the intollerablest thing in the world to him , and though it hath leave from him to grow besides him , and will too among some , yet he hopes to loosen it by lending it so much scope , that it may come up the more easily by the roots , and seeks what he can to kill it by his kindnesse . The other viz. thou ( PPPriest ) though , that thou mayest seem to be totally for the truth , and all others to be enemies to it but thy self and thine , thou cravest ( I might say commandest , and challengest ) such a large toleration for what thou callest truth , that nothing else must be tolerated besides it , yet the truth is , the truth as it is in Jesus , which is Heresie with thee , is lesse beholding to thee then to the other , for it hath not so much as leave from thee to live , if it can , nay it can take no root at all , at least not thrive above ground if it do , where thou livest at the length of thy Lordlines ; for like Nimrod the mighty hanter before the Lord , thou hast built to thy self great B B Babel , a Triple Tower , a three-fold Fort , or form of Tyrannical Churchlines , wherein thou seatest , and securest thy self , and whence ( being jealous least all that comes neer thee under the name of truth , should undermine thee ) thou fightest it afar off . Thou art ( as it were ) a wild man like Ismael , having thy hand against every man , and every mans hand against thee , dwelling alone , as much as thou canst , in the midst of thy brethren , by thy sword , and thy bow , by cutting and slashing , and shooting out thy sharp arrowes , even bitter words , viz. Hereticks , Hereticks , against all that heed not what thou sayest , before thou hearest them : these are the rough hands of Esau , wherewith thou handlest thy brother Iacob , that will obtain the blessing before thee ; TTThou art the 3 heads of that Eagle , spoken of 2 Esdras cap. 11. cap. 12. and wheresoever thou lookest and spreadest thy black wings , thou lookest that all other birds should tremble under thee , and be subject to thee , so that none of old , durst so much as chirp against thee , no not one creature upon earth , but so soon as any began to appear any where within thy range , that was not Pullus Aquilae a chicken of thy own brood , thou hast rapaciously torn it with thy Talents , and made it a prey to thy young ones , and whersoever thy wonted principle of persecution for conscience hath taken place , and thy gawdy , greedy , griping Government stood up in full force , the truth hath lien groaning , and grovling under thee upon the ground . Thus verily hath it been not onely for ages and generations within the dominions of the old Bruitish , but also more lately under the domination of our BBrittish Priesthood . Yea thou O P P Priest hast been such a thicket of thorns to the Lilly that she could never flourish upwards without a thousand scratches from thee ; such a tall crop of tares , as hath overtopt , starved , and strangled the wheat . TTThou knowest not what spirit TTThou art of , thou wouldst fain command fire to come down from heaven * and consume them ( as if it were Christs mind ) that receive not Christ Jesus in the wayes of thy own invention : thou judgest them that are without , that are none of thy C C Church ( whom , were thy Church the true Church , thou should leave to God to judge 1 Cor. 5.13 ) if they be but in the same Nations wherein thy Church is , and that shrewdly too sometimes , when thou canst get the strength and power of states to stand to thee , and execute such censure as thou saiest is due to Hereticks and Schismaticks in the Church , yet I cannot much blame thee , whilst thou clap'st whole common-wealths at once under thee as thy Church , which ought as much to be corrected into an observance of the directories and decrees of Synodical power in matters spiritual , as of the Senatical in matters civill : thy chief way to cure Hereticks ( when they are in health ) is to kill them : this Panpharmacon is letting blood , thy present remedy against the remedilesse disease of Truth-telling Truth-spreading is Truth treading , and present smoothering it from the vulgar , by stopping the passage of the press , and opening the Pipes in the Pulpit , and present tampering with the Truth-teller , who , if he unsee not what he sees , is ense recidendus , to be dispatcht out of the way , ne pars sincera trahatur , lest sincere ones , that seek after truth should find it when it flies abroad , and be in-per-fected by it as well as he : thou massacrest men to the Masse , slayest men into thy service books , setst up thy religion by treason , * when it can stand no more by reason , fightest with fire and sword , when thou canst do little by the spirit and word , * makest thy pen knife keen enough to cut , when thy pen is not quick enough to countetfeit , thou stopst Stevens mouth with stones , and bearest him down with brick-bats that he blasphemes , when thou canst not resist the Wisdome and the Spirit by which he speaks , like the wolf in the fable , thou accusest the poor innocent lamb of troubling the waters , for nothing but drinking at the pure fountain , and when the lamb replies , my cause is better then thine , Oh but quoth the wolf , my teeth are better then thine , I must devour thee . Now therefore as to the civil Magistracy , throwout all Nations , Tongues , kinreds and people where thou ( O proud P P Priesthood ) ridest them , I humbly beg of them in the name of Christ , and on behalf of his truth and people , which thou hast suppressed , that they would no longer set TTThee up as Lady of Kingdoms as Lords over Gods heritage , as Supream dictators to the whole nations where they live so in all Matters of Religion , faith , and Gospel , as that all people must fal down to thee , and worship God only according to thy more dimme and divided , then divine directions ; but that people may go forth from under thy Egyptian prohibition , to serve the Lord according to his own will and word , which thou hast hid from the vulgar by unknown tongues , and forcing thy own constructions on men in nations wherein its mostly truly translated , and believe no more at a venture as the P P Priests believe by any law , as from the Magistrate , whose duty it is not to force men to unity of faith and uniformity in Religion , further then they find freedome to fall into such unity among themselves ; but to force men to live at unity and peace , in honesty and innocency , in all justice and civility one towards another , under what diversity of religion soever may be among them : and whilest any Religion puts its people in mind to be subject to principalities and powers , to obey Magistrates , in civil things for conscience sake , and not to resist them in rebellious waies in such cases , under pain of resisting the ordinance of God , and receiving to themselves damnation according to Rom. 13.12 . Titus 3.1 . 1 Pet. 2.13.14.15 . to see that it have as mutuall protection from them , as it yields subjection to them : for this is the good will of God concerning them , as such , and whether they be Heathens or Christians , they are Gods Ministers to attend continually upon this very thing , viz. to re●der unto all men their dues , as men viz. a room in quiet in the world of what wayes of religion soever , yea though Indians , and redress of any civil wrongs , as they expect to have all men , of what religions soever within their power , to render to them their dues of tribute , honour , custome , fear , for for this cause pay they their tribute also , because Magistrates are Gods Ministers to the world ward , and to the Church as part of the world , and in no other sense then as to the rest of the world , to attend continually on this very thing : to dispense praise or punishments for civil good and evil among men , not spiritual , for then they may punish evill thoughts , proud looks , ignorance , non-profiting by the word , not Gods Church-ministers , to dispense good or evil , for good or evil done in the Church , but as the same actions may have reference to the state also , as theft , or the like civil abuse , which comes one way under the Churches censure , and another way under the Common-wealths : they are not I say Church Ministers , nor Ministers to the Church qua Church , as the Priests principle seemes to make them , for then they may claim not only Tribute , but Tith also as well as the Priest , but that he will be loath to part with , though in truth it belongs to him for his Church wasting work full as little as to the other . I humbly beg therefore ( I say ) of the Powers , that truth which hath been trod under foot may be tolerated among them in their several civil States , Common-wealths and Kingdomes , and to the end it may undoubtedly be so , let all that which the Powers in the several Nations do judge in their own consciences to be truth in point of Religion , have toleration and protection , and no more countenance by them , as Magistrates , but bare protection from injury , as other waies also may have , and not such extraordinary supports from a power Heterogeneal to that of the Church , nor such extraordinary gratulations , gratuities , revenews , incomes , preferments , and portions out of the common State-stock ( let their own private purses be as open to them , & such as professe it pay to its Ministry as much as they will ) for besides the partiality of this thing of making other Religions , and wayes that judge themselves to be the truth as well as that , pay and be tributaries to the true one , and the g●umbles it will ingender in mens minds , this proves the greatest mischief under heaven to the truth , when the Ministers , who should expect nothing but shame , and suffering with their Master , who was Beelzebub , are flusht with the outward pomps and vanities of this world till they forget themselves so , as scarce to know what ground they stand on ; and howbeit Magistrates may mean honestly in their high honourings of them ( as that good man Constantine the great did ) yet as his high embraces , and graces done to Christian Bishops proved ( besides his intent ) the stirrup , whereby those Lord beggars got up on horse back , and rode to the devil ( for so hath that Romish whore rid both her self , and the beast under her which is Christ'ndome ) so though I hope it never will , yet it may possibly be so again , if care be not taken against it , witnesse the two other more seemingly modest and maidenly Minions , Episcopacy and Presbitery , which ( qua Ministry ) came out of her loines , who have not brought the world so far out of that old Babilon towards Sion as they pretended to do by reformation , as else they might have done , being slugged , & luld asleep by benefits , and benefices in the way ; for positâ eâdem causà ponitur idem effectus sublat â tollitur , golden cups ever yet made wooden Priests , and ever will do ; let truth have liberty , and peace , it will desire no more of the State if it be truth indeed . And Secondly , let all other wayes and religions besides that which the Magistrate judges to be truth , that judge themselves to be in the truth ( save that of those whose very way ( as abovesaid ) is no way but dishonesty , and whose way is to root out all wayes but their own by civil power ) be also tolerated , practised and protected from outward violence , and oppression as well as that , for this besides the knitting of the hearts of men of all wayes under one civill power , in intire love and strong affection to that Power that domineers not ore their conscience * , besides that I say this tolerating all practices in point of religion , save that practise of non toleration of any but it self in civil states , must needs tolerate the truth among the rest , whether it ly in this way or that , and so the Power shall be out of all danger and hazard of coming under the guilt of truth treading , which the PPPriesthood hath engaged the civil power in for 1260 years together , as else it cannot , for if toleration be of no way but one , then if that chance to be the wrong , ( and the magistrates are no more sure then other men , that they are in the right , * yea 100 to 1 they are not if they use civil violence to others , First , because the false wayes are many , and broad , and easie , and fine , and the true way but one , and that so streit and narrow , mean and base , that not many noble , and mighty , and men of power ever find it 1 Cor. 1.26 . Secondly , because ( as King Iames said ) persecution is a certain note of a false Church ) then truth is unavoidably smothered by them , and will first or last pull vengeance upon that power , Rev. 6.11.12 . though it be under the name of Heresie onely that he suppresses it , and plucks it up under the name and notion of weeds and tares that would else choak the wheat : besides therefore a most strict charge that Christ gives Mat. 13. that in the world i. e. the civil States and Common-wealths of it the Tares should stand together among the wheat untill the harvest , which alone is an Argument putting all out of doubt in this controversie , he gives this good reason viz. least in plucking up the Tares , the wheat also chance to be rooted up with them , t is for the wheats good therefore for the Tares to stand , and for the wheats sake that Christ wills they should , though not in the Church yet in the world to the very end thereof . And because the Divine cannot yet divine that to be Christs meaning in that scripture , that false worshippers hereticks &c. may lawfully ( if not civil offenders ) be licenced to live in civil States , let us consider how sinister his own conjectures are upon it , I have met with some and some of chiefest note in this County of Ken , who have shifted it of thus , saying that by the Field is meant the Church , not the World as we say , and Christ himself interprets it in that place . Secondly , that the servants , who ask whether they should pluck up the Taris yea or no , and are bid to let them grow together with the Wheat , are not the Civil Magistrates , but Christs Disciples , who had nothing to doe to pluck them up , and so the civil Magistrate may do it no withstanding : to this purpose I have been answered when I have askt in way of querie the sense of that place . To which I say , First , that by the Field is most necessarily meant the World , and not the Church . First Christ so expounds it himself , the field ( saith he ) is the World : but , say they , the World is oft used to expresse the Church , and so may here . I reply , first , I deny that the word world in any one place of Scripture signifies the Church onely ; it signifies sometimes the fabrick of the Universe . Secondly , it signifies all man kind good and bad collectively . Thirdly , sometimes the wicked onely that lie in wickednesse , 1 Iohn 1.13 . Iohn 17. abstract and in contradistinction to the godly , and the Church , but never at all the Church , the godly , the Elect alone abstract , and as in contradistinction to the wicked : and though I know how far forth to maintain their absurd doctrines in other cases some Divines divine such a matter , yet till they shew more for it then they have ever shewed to me , or I am sure can shew out of the word ( not denying but that there is a number electorum ( i. e. ) all that believe and obey Christ , exmundo electus ) their Mundus electorum is haud mundus dialectus . Secondly , here it cannot be the Church however , because it is vox secundae intentionis , a speech that is expounded by Christ to be the sense of the other speech of field he used before , for if the word world were ever used for the Church , it must be by a figure synechdoche , whereby a smal snip of it is signified by the whole , and then Christ speaks figuratively again in his Exposition of the other figurative word field , which were incertum per incertum , to open one paraboricall expression by another as paraboricall as that , which who can think Christ did to his Disciples , to whom his intent was to speak more plain , that they might understand him , but understand him they could not well , if while he spake figuratively at first , he did not speak properly at last however ; for whereas he had told them the field was the World , they had as much need to have asked again what the world was , if they could not think he meant plainly as he said . Thirdly , the Church is exprest usually by the name of Christ's Garden , Vineyard &c. which are places more peculiar , and sequestred as Cant. 4.12.16 . Isaiah 5.6 . Ez. 15. and the world or part without , the Church , by the name of Field , Forrest &c. wherein Tares , wild bores , briars , thornes , as well as wheat , and Saints may live . Fourthly , if by Field and World here is meant the Church , then t will follow , that sith the Tares , i. e. false Worshippers , Hereticks , Antichristians are bid to be let alone untill the harvest , that such as these may be tolerated , not in the world or civil state onely with the Church , but also in the very Church it self , which toleration cannot be , for God chides that Church that suffers Iezebel to teach fornication in her ; and if the P P Priesthood plead for such a Toleration as this ( as he had need considering how his Church is filled with tares more then he is either able , or willing to root out ) then ●e is for a tolleration far more intollerable then that we plead for ; for we would have Hereticks and Schismaticks , and Erroneous false worshippers , and nominall Christians , Antichristians no neerer the Church then in the world with them , i. e. the same States , Towns , houses , but not in one and the same Church-fellowship , or Congregation , but they would have them stand in the Church , for which sure Christ gives no permission , much lesse a strick Commission , as here is , that they should . But say you Christ does not here mean that they shall stand , as if none had to do pluck them up , but onely forbids these servants , who were his disciples , from meddling with them , to ev●ry of whom he gives not Authority to pass censures , and punish , but some may have Authority for it for all that . Some who are those I trow ? it must be then either the Ministry , or the Magistracy : not the Ministry , for it is far more cleer , that by the servants here , that took notice of the tares to the housholder , is meant the servants of Christ in the office of Ministers , that would fain have been meddling ( as the false Ministry ever does ) to root out all both out of Church , and world too , that is not of institution by Christ in their opinion , and such a spirit may too much shew it self in the true too , see the like Spirit in his own disciples the first Ministers Luke 9.54.55 . Mat. 15.12.13.14 . for which Christ gives them a check , and tells them they knew not what spirit they were of , and bids them let the false plants alone to the heavenly Father to pluck up in his time , saying let them alone they be blind leaders of the blind , and will both in due time fall into the ditch : t is far more clear I say that t is his Ministry he here forbids , then common disciples , for why should not their Ministry complain of them aswell as they ? yet he bids these let them alone , which shewes too that t is the World , and not the Church they are to stand in , for it belongs properly enough , and primarily to the Ministers , with consent of the Church , executively to passe the censure of putting them out of the Church . Secondly not the Magistracy , for if it were the Church as they say it is , how miserably do they mope ( and yet so the Priest does ) that make him the highest officer in the Church to cast persons out of the Church , who is ( though the highest officer over the Church , and World too , yet in truth ) no Church officer , or Minister in the Church ( qua Church ) at all . Besides lastly , which puts all out of doubt , the prohibition is to all men as well as some , and sounds forth the mind of Christ to be , that the tares shall stand in the Field till the harvest , and not be pluckt up by any at all , but stand till the harvest they cannot according to his will , if according to his will either Magistrate , or Minister might pluck them up , out of the field , what field ere t is that is here spoken of : his will is not only that such shall not pluck them up , but that they shall not be pluckt up until the harvest , i. e. the end of the world , till he sends his Angels to gather the tares , all things that offend , every plant , that the heavenly father hath not planted , out of his Kingdome , which taken at large is the whole world , and to bundle them for the fire . To all these many more reasons may be added why the Magistrate may not force men at all in matters of faith , repentance , Religion , worship , see Barbers answer to the Essex watchmens watch-word , p. 7. &c. the Magistrate receives no charge from God about Religion , neither is cura ammarum , but cura corporum onely committed to him . Luther himself was of this mind , that the Lawes of the Magistrate extended no further then to the bodies and goods , that which is external , and that God would have none to rule in the soul , but himself , therefore where the Magistrate goes about to govern in the conscience , he usurps that jurisdiction , which God reserves to himself , certainly this is that great arrogany in the Whore or Woman of sin , which God will severely punish , in that S S Shee gives lawes to the conscience , and sits in the Temple and Church of God as a God. King Iames in Parliament 1609 said , That it is a sure rule in Divinity that God never loves to plant his Church with violence and blood , and again in his Apology for the oath of Allegeance p. 4. speaking of the Papists that took the said oath , That he gave a good proof of it that he never intended persecution for conscience , but onely desired to be secured of them for civil abuses , that it was usually the condition of Christians to be persecuted , but not to persecute . Again , Faith and repentance to acknowledgement of the truth is Gods gift ( and if wee 'l believe our Clergy ) no way in every mans power , no not by gift from God to perform , and so the Magistrate must punish men belike , because God , who gives where he lists , does not give them to believe &c. Again Blasphemers , Persecutors , as Paul , Idolators , as the Corinthians , yea Iewes , Turks and Pagans may be converted in time by the word , therefore are not to be plucked up out of the Earth , for then they can never possibly repent . Again persecution was never taught by Christ nor practised by his Apostles , but arose among Heathens , and was continued by ( the Roman ) Antichrist , and his Ministers . * Yet there 's one way more , whereby they evade all this , and that is by denying that by the Tares here are meant Hereticks , False Worshippers , and Antichristians , and asserting them to be Hypocrites in the Church ; and this is the way of Mr. Cotton ( whereby you may see again how Divines are divided among themselves in all things almost , as well as some ) which Mr. Cotton , in a book , which the Bloody Tenet relates to gives out ( as I remember ) that by tares is meant hypocrites in the Church , who are so like the wheat , that they cannot well be discovered , nor discerned from it , and so must be let alone in the Church , by the Ministers of the Church , least they mistake and pluck up wheat instead of tares , and cast out men for hypocrites , who its possible may be sincere for ought we know . In answer to which I must confesse men that cast out persons for Hypocrites , had need be pretty wary , and not overhasty , yea better an inconvenience than a mischief ; bet●er erre in letting some Hypocrites stand in the Church , then for hast cast out one that seemes to be so to us , and yet is not . But this is not the sense of our Saviour in this place , for as it cannot be the Church that the Tares are here bid to be let alone in ( as I have shewed above ) so much lesse by the tares can be meant hypocrites , so neer the wheat , i. e. true Saints in shew , and likenesse , and pretence , as to be hardly discerned from them . For First , Though Hypocrites are like Saints , and appear so to be oft , it may be alwaies , to the deceiving of us , yet the Tares are not at all like the wheat , nor at all to any , but such as are stark blind , appearing to be wheat . Secondly , an Hypocrite in the Church ( who is one that app●ars to be what he is not ) must be supposed while he is in the Church , to be discovered , or not discovered so to be , when not discovered , he is no hypocrite to us , to whom things are , as they appear ( what ere he may be to God ) but as true a Saint as the rest ; and when discovered ( till when to us he is a Saint , and must stand under the notion of a Saint ) then he must not stand in the Church , which is not to harbor any that are palpably wicked , and who is so palpable as he , whose simulata sanctitas is dulplex iniquitas . But now First , the tares hee spoken of are plainly said , and seen to be tares , and appeare to be tares , and a distinct stuff from the Wheat ; and yet for all that they are bid to be let alone in the Field , as hypocrites must not be in the Church , when they appear to be such . But in the field , i. e : the world t is true enough that hypocrites may stand , even after they are cast out of the Church , unlesse they act any thing that civil justice will reach them for , and so also may Antichristians , and all false Worshippers . T is evident then that in this place , as well as Matth. 15.13.14 . that in the time of the Gospel Church , Tares that much hinder the wheat , that are mingled in the same Field , world , Civil States , Countreyes , Common-wealths , of Satans sowing among the Wheat , Weeds , Nettles , Bryers , Thorns , Plants that are not of the heavenly Fathers planting , Fa●se worshippers , Hereticks , men and their Ministryes of false Religions , doctrines , faiths , waies of serving God , may and ought by permission , and commission from Christ be let alone , and allowed to stand , by no means in the same Church , by all means in the same world , or part of the world locally considered , for the Church is not locally considered as a place measured by , and consistent of such or such a compasse of ground , as the Popes parish Churches did , whereupon they went on procession once a year , lest they should forget the bounds of their Church , but mystically , of such or such a company of men , however scattered locally here or there , yet in one fellowship , I say in the same part of the world , nation , City , Countrey , civill corporation , with the wheat , Saints , true Church , under the protective power of civil Magistracy free from molestation , meerly for their religion , so be they live justly , soberly and peacably with all men , any thing said to the contrary in any wise notwithstanding by the Priest , who of all men hath least reason to be against toleration of tares in the world , and of plants which the heavenly father never planted ; if he consider what he is himself , and unlesse he desire to be rooted out in hast by the civill power , before his time . See the parable , and read it , with the exposition of it Mat. 13.37 . &c. He that sowed good seed in the field is the son of man , i. e. Christ , the field is the world , therefore not the Church , the good seed or wheat are the children of the Kingdom , i. e. the Saints the true Church , and worshippers , the tares , which while men slept , and did not mind it , the enemy came and sowed among the wheat , i. e. in the same parts and places of the world , Towns , Countreyes , &c. locally considered , the children of the wicked one , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the same as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 2 Thes. 2. that wicked , false worshippers of God after their own inventions , mens precepts , not his will , people and priests grown up into a Church , worship , ministery , religion insensibly by little and little , from false principles , and foundations , custome , forefathers , prudential additions of orthodox men &c. not the pure naked word it self : a people born to their religion , yea their christian religion in the way of flesh , and blood , and the will of man , of the Pope and councells constituting , and civil powers from them commanding ; not of God by the word of truth . The Enemy that sowed them is the devil , for he indeed filled the whole world even the whole Christian world , with false worshippers , false principled Clergy men , and when he could not kill the wheat , the Christians in the ten persecutions in his open war against them by the mouth of th● beast , or empire heathen , wherein he prosecuted them under their own names , because Constantine a Christian was come now to the crown , then he turned , Christian himself , and would have Christianity imbraced by all meanes , by a law , and sowed the seed of false principles , of stablishing Christian religion , as the onely religion , before which all other shall now down , promoting Christianity in the shell , that he might kill it in the substance , causing great honours , revenues , Peters patrimonies to be given in favour of Christianity , from which principles , selfish , ambitious , lazy , luxurious Ministers , as the Pope , formall meer nominal Christians grew up , and overtopt the truth and true Saints , that kept close to the truth , in the midst of all this mock shew , wherin the devil hath kept an apish imitaon of Christs church all along , and ministry , ordinances , baptism , supper , church censure , but all corrupt , and trod the holy city to the ground Rev. 11. the same subtle one , now he sees his trade of forcing men from the truth by the principle of conformity to the false Christianity , and the old Spiritualty fail , is now shifting himself undoubtedly in to another Spiritualty , that will as much corrupt , & delude the world by the principle of liberty of conscience abused , and turnd by the Ranter into license , though we who plead for liberty of truth say in maxima libertate est minima licentia , in the greatest liberty of conscience to serve God , there 's the least licence to serve the devil by our lusts , and corrupt our selves in what we know naturally as bruit beasts ; nor is that conscience that makes conscience of nothing . The harvest is the end of the world , the reapers the Angels , by whom at that time Christ will throughly purge his floor , and gather his wheat into his barn and burn up all chaff , Tares , husks , weeds , bryers , thornes , idolators , hypocrites , subtle seducers , and sinful subverters of the truth , whoever shall appear to have been such , and all other trash , with unquenchable fire Matth. 3.12 . Mean while I say still Tares may stand among wheat locally in one Country , yet not lawfully in one church society . Weeds and flowers , Roses and nettles , Lillies and thornes , Vines and brambles , Idolatours and true worshippers , Believers and infidells , the children of the Kingdome and of the wicked one , the Temple of God and idols , Christs church and the Devils chappel , discovered hypocrites and sincere Saints , Christians of all sorts , save such whose very principle prohibits toleration , and they make the case uncapable to be , which will win or loose all , stand alone or not at all as whether the P P Priesthoods do not , or at least did not , let all men judge Jews , Turks and Pagans may be lawfully allowed their religions , living in subjection under one civil power , if the whole world were but one Monarchy , in one World , in one Field , or Common-wealth , though not in one Garden , not in one Vineyard or Church ; and may not be made to be of the true religion whether they will or no : yea I appeal to the conscience of any sober minded man , whether if Pontius Pilate , whom the Scripture stiles the Governour of Iudaea ( and a lawful Governour over the church , a very heathen may be , but no heathen lawfully , a member , much lesse an officer or a Governour in the Church ( whether I saie if Pilate should have been converted by Christ at the bar , while he sate on the bench , and truely believed in him : it would have pleased Christ : that he should have improved his civil power to have established Christianity in Iudaea : and forced all men under penalty to believe in christ , and renounce all meer Jewish worships ; or whether it had been as lawful a decree in Augustus Caesar to have forced all men to be Christians under a penalty , as t was in him , to issue out a decree , that all the world should be taxed ? I suppose not , but that he must have left all to their waies , and have practised it himself , and protected it from injury , and propounded it to all in way of preaching , but not prosecuting any by his civil power , if they would yet remain Jewes or heathens ; and Christ might as easily have made Emperors his Disciples had he meant that the Gospel should be established by civil power . And this is for the further safegard , and advantage to the wheat ( as I sayd before ) for Christ gives this reas●n why he would have the tares to be let alone , least by rooting out the tares , the wheat be rooted out also : for if all religions may stand , then the true one may stand in quiet , without disturbance , if all people may walk every one in the name of his God , Mich. 4.5 . then we may walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever , but if all be beaten down in a state , and but one stand , ten thousand to nothing it is not the truth that is there established : for truth may be trodden down , but treads not down others in a violent way of persecution . Besides if true Religion establish it self alone in some States , by forcing men to subject to it , its gives a bad example to false religions in other states , that think themselves in the right , to do the like , and force men that love the truth there , to submit to them , and so there 's quit for quo , and no end of disturbances , they saying that we are Tares , we that they are , and so there is nothing but pulling up by the roots , if toleration be not tolerated , as the most peacemaking principle , and so in these bussles if the wheat grow alone some where , it must fall elsewhere , even every where , where the tares are resolved to stand alone , and so Homo Homini Lupus , Christianus Christiano Diabolus , men must be wolves and devils each to other throughout the world . Besides , if the power in any place be ignorant , and under an erring conscience that conscientia errans , will oblige him , seemingly to himself at least , to tread down truth , and set up false hood , and all this by a law , yea if the Magistrate take the part of any religion against all other , so as to establish it alone , and root out them , whether it be the true one or a false one that he sets up , not tolerating all others , but forcing them to submit to it , the mischief is in a manner intolerable , on either hand ; for if false , have not we all felt the smart of being forc't to false wayes , Smectimnus as well as others ? if he hath not forgotten the groans , that for liberty of conscience came once out of his own mouth , while he was crusht under him , that was crusht under the Popedom , but in the Marian dayes above : but if true the forcing men to own it before they see ground freely to receive it , makes a world of formalists , of nominal Christians , who had as good be nothing at all , as no better then they are , & of hypocrites , which are worse then nought , the worst sinners in the world : for is it not better for me to remain a Jew under a blind conscience , till I see the truth , then to turn Christian against my ( though blinded conscience ) for fear of men , before convinc't , or before I yet see it to be the truth ? a forced feigned profession for fear of men , if it happen to be of the truth it self , is at best but splendidum peccatum a guilded sin . Besides t is to weave the spiders webbe as Isa. 59. to make laws and penalties to bind conscience , which brawny conscienc't men can creep ore , let them be what they will , as we see in Nebuchadnezzars dayes , and in the Popes time , and ever since , all people for fear fall down and worship the golden image the King and Clergy sets up , save such as fear God indeed . And if it be thought that if the civil power take not the part of truth ( as I wonder where and when ever it did , at least since Constantines times , till of late ) it will be lost more in the croud of errors and Heresies , that will ensue a general toleration , then any other way it can : I say , let truth alone , and turn it loose to plead fully for it self , and it will work out its way and live , and thrive , maugre all the entanglements it can have from tares : plain truth may be trusted to treat with the subtlest and proudest opposers it hath in the world , that ( caeteris paribus ) do make head against it : but if it be set against by the forrain power of a civil sword , premi ( yet then too hand supprimi ) potest : do but defend it onely from injury equally with others by the civil , and then it will defend it self by the spirituall sword against them all . Wherefore I again humbly represent that grave Councel of Gamaliel , whose reason is good , to all the civil Magistrates throughout the earth , by whose subjects t is sharpely controverted , and zealously quaeried what is truth , viz. that they refrain from meddling more with men , though they seem mad men to the world , and besides themselves for the sake of truth in pretence , lest happily they be found fighters against God , for if any way be not of God , t will in Gods time come to nought of it self , and ye cannot establish it , if of God you cannot withstand it , but t will come on , in this juncture specially , wherein it dawns toward the great day , and God is about to pluck up every plant he hath not planted ; And if men be in your apprehension blind leaders of the blind in things of God , yet let them alone , if they will not go to the right way when called to it , they will see , when they both fall into the ditch . And likewise I humbly beg that what is further and more clearly held forth concerning this subject of liberty of conscience by Mr. Blackwood , in the first part of his storming of Antichrist , may be well weighed by our Magistrates , together with the thirty quaeries presented to them lately by Mr. Iohn Goodwin , and his vindication of them against the Apologist , neither of which ever will be answered solidly by their parish Ministers . And as for the P P Priesthood it self ( though I hope the night is too farre spent for any ( save such as will be ignorant , and if any man will be ignorant , let him be ignorant saith Paul , 1 Cor. 14.28 . and so say I ) to doubt but that the day is dark over them and theirs ) they are blind leaders of the blind in many things , which many others see , of whom yet they are asham'd to learn , and which is worse , such as stand not a little in their own light , by snuffing at it that the Russet Rabbies , and Clergy of Laicks should presume to instruct them more perfectly in the way of God , which God in these daies ( wherein the last must be first , and the first last ) will subject the proudest spirited Priests in Christ'ndom to take from some illiterate , and perhaps , non-sensical , yet honest hearted Saints stammerers in speech , babes ( with them bablers ) as of old eloquent Apollos from Aquila and Priscilla , or else it may be hid from their eyes . And though what they would not that others do to them , when they were underlings each to other , they have done unto all other professions , that were underlings to them in the day of their raign , hasting what they could to the hunting of the Sectaries out of their synagogues ( or their native rights and enjoyments therein ) which they have subjugated to be their Synagogues , counting the compasse of whole Common-weals , and Kingdomes little enough for them to Lord it over , and set their several names of Papal , Prelatical , or Presbyterian there , confounding , and Babilonishly blending Church & State Power together , so that t was hard for any token clearly which was which , or to know where to set the sole of his foot almost upon European ground in any Nation , but he and all ( his conscience and all ) must come under the command , and fall within the verge of some or other of their mercilesse Church Monarchies , yet neverthelesse my humble desire to the powers on their behalf is that they may be tolerated and protected in the practise of what profession , Religion , way of worship , doctrine , discipline , or Church-government soever they see occasion among themselves , and such as shall see occasion to cleave to them , or any of them , to set up , so far as they shall desire to build their several BBBabels without that blood of souls and bodies of men , in which they have imbrued both their own , and the Princes hands of the Christian Nations in former dayes : I heartily plead for a toleration for them , if ever the power shall ( as not a few people already do ) discern them to be as Heretical , and Schismatical from the truth , as they have judged all others to be , such toleration I mean , as may not be inconsistent with the toleration of all other people , and professions of Religion in the several nations in peace together with them , and in security from such searches as have been made by their Surrogates Paritors and Proctours &c. after men as unsufferable Schismaticks that side not with them : but a toleration of them in that wonted Tyranny of treading all under their feet , and plucking up all plants by the roots that live beside them by the civil power , when they once have censured them ●or such seditious ones as are not fit to be suffered in a state because they submit not to their statelinesse , and complain'd of them to Kings as Haman to Ahasuerus of the Jewes , the true Churches type , saying Esth. 3.8 . there is a certain people scattered abroad , and dispersed among the people in all the Provinces of thy Kindom , and their laws are divers from all people , neither keep they the Kings laws , therfore it is not for the Kings , ( alias not the CCClergies ) profit to suffer them , and made their modest request that if it please the King it may be written that they may be destroyed , which conscience of correcting Hereticks , that conform'd not to the CCClergies Christianity , carried Christian Kings to condescend to in old time , this toleration is too intolerable in all conscience . I wish well to the persons of the men called CCClergy ( God is my witnesse ) but I wish not so well to their way as to wish it up in the way wherein they would have had it : and yet I here wish they may have their way too , abating us no more of it then their unreasonable wonted wishes , that the state would allow no wayes but their own , let them pare off that knotty piece from off their principle , wherein they pray the Powers to beat all men into the belief of all they say by the sword , the belief of which they can never beat into them by the word , then let them and their party practise what they please : let their way be no way of civill violence to all other wayes and then in civil peace let them walk in it till they are weary : and let it stand till by the word it fall before the true one , if it be such a noun Adjective that it cannot stand by it self in Scripture , sense and Reason , without such a Substantive as the civil sword to support it , t is a sign that there 's far more shew , then Substance in it : for verily that Gospel that will not stand not onely without , but against the edge of Caesars sword encountring with it , is Antichrists , but none of Christs Gospel to me : yet such it seems is the CCClergies Gospel , which freedom to set it up by other wayes leaves still as helplesse , as hopelesse , of ever standing , unlesse it may be stablisht against all other wayes , on the necks of all people by the carnal weapons of Caesars civil State ; it s very doubtful of entring the feild with no other strength then its own Canons , unlesse the state lend it her ordinances to back them : but if Baal be a God , me thinks he might speak for himself against them that throw down his Altars , without imploring all the Gods of the earth to speak for him ; if the Multitude of his Priests cannot set up his worship , without the Magnitude of earthly Princes to relieve them , let it go , and a good riddance of it too , if Dagon * cannot stand on his own legs , but must fall before the Ark , unlesse the benevolence of others lift him up , his PPPriests may set him up as much as they will for themselves , but they shall never set him up again for me . Neverthelesse I am as freely willing , sith t is the will of Christ , and his Testament , that even Baalitish , Romish worshippers should have a Room , and being in the world by the civil Magistrates permission , they yielding civil subjection * even to the end thereof , as I am willing there should be a Room and being in it for the truth , for though the Prophets of Baal were put to death in reforming Elijahs time , in the old Church of Israel , which was the type , yet that pointed out no more then that spiritual execution , which is to be done on Iezebel , and her false worships in the true Church in these reforming times of the Gospel , not one of which may abide any more in the Gospel Israel ; yea I here seriously supplicate the civil Powers for them , that their consciences no more then ours may be forced by any forinsecal power to act in Church worships contrary to their conviction , but if nought will content the PPPriesthood at all ( as of old it would not ) but that all Hereticks , as they call them , that hearken not to their Traditions , must be clublawd into conformity to their parochial precepts , so far at least as to obey the Hue and Cry of their purses , without free leave from their own consciences so to do , then ( protesting against the iniquity of their desires after the persecution of those , who desire the protection of them from persecution by the civill Power ) my most humble suit to the supreme Powers is , that they will be pleased , as to let the PPPriesthood preach as much as they please ( a little of which work serves the turns of some of them ) and to let such as are satisfied in their Souls and spirits , that they ought to do both , to own and pay them , so to let such as seem to themselves on sufficient grounds to have clear cause to decline them , have the freedome of their consciences to be none of their flocks , and being none of their flocks , a freedom from being forcibly fleec'd by them any more ; and if the CCClergy shall he Angry at this without a cause , to let them be pleased without amends , sith t is most evident , that as men ought not to be constrained against their wills , to be of Christs , much lesse of the CCClergies flock , so he that feedeth a flock may freely , and not by force , live of the milk of that flock he feeds , and may not of them that are forrainers to his flock , further then they are free to supply him : they went forth freely to preach the Gospel for his names sake , taking nothing , much lesse by force , of the Gentiles , that were Ministers to the Church of old , Iohn Ep. 3. v. 7. and many heathenish Parishes here have the Gospell preacht freely to them when they accept on it by the messengers , that go forth of the true churches at this day , but many Parish Ministers will make all that live , or have to do within their line , buy their Sermons of them , and that at their own price too , whether they like them or no , and , which is worse , though they have sold them once , it may be often , ore already ( and a dear penniworth too ) yet as oft as they remove to other livings , they carry them away along with them in their papers from the people , that have already bought and paid for them , preach them ore again , and so sell them for as much more in other places : but I hope the civil power throughout Europe , as well as they do in the tenth part of it already , will take cognizance ere long , that it can be no great ease to truly tender consciences , who with the CCClergy are ever stiled Sectaries and Schismaticks , to lie under the lash of these Lords over Gods heritage , and in tender consideration thereof , and compassion to those righteous souls , who are vexed with their vanities , proclaim such a Iubilee that the true spouse of Christ , whom they made a keeper of their vineyard , shall have leave to keep her own vine yard , & go forth from her Apprenticeship to these spiritual Task-masters , that their consciences shall be no more yoaked , nor captivated to their crude and carnal conceptions , and the wings of the CCClergy so clipt , that they shall not soare so high , as they have done , over the faith of all people ; yea in the name of the blessed , and onely Potentate King of Kings , and Lord of Lords , Christ Iesus , I warn all the civil Powers , Princes and Potentates of the world , that have been bewitched by the sorceries of that WWWhore , who corrupts the earth with her fornications , that they give up their power and strength no more to be improved to the forcing of the inhabiters of the earth , to drink of the golden cup , and wine of her fornications , but that they improve it rather henceforth to the freeing all men from from her conscience crushing principle of persecution by the civil sword , that submit not to her Sinodical constitutions , and if they refuse to obey the will of the Lord in this thing , and permit not all people to live peaceably in their several forms of worship , they behaving themselves civilly , and in all subjection to them in civil matters in their several States , I testifie unto them that then the hand of the Lord will be so heavy upon them , and their PPPriests and people , that he will plague them as certainly as he did Egypt , Pharoah and his Magicians till they let his Israel go forth , and serve him as he required . Yea ( O ye Powers ) if ye shall yet persevere to Tyranize over truth , and trample upon tender consciences , and force all men to that one faith which the men , or rather the woman Rev. 17. the CCClergy in their counsels make the standard through you several States , the Lord Christ will tread you and your people in his wrath , and trample you in his fury , and stain all his raiment with your blood , and strengthen your own Subjects against you and your PPPriesthood , IIIezebel , that stirs you up , whose lovers you are , with invincible courage , and irresistable wrath against you , to suppresse your miserable misgovernment , and cast her into a bed , and you that commit adultery with her , into great tribulation except you repent of your deeds , yea he will endlessly imbroile you in wars one against another , about your false faiths , and Anti-christian Christianities , and bring plagues upon you , the sword , famine , death , and destruction , that he may repay unto you the things that have been done unto his chosen , and will hold his tongue no longer as touching the wickedness of that kind , which hath been profanely committed , but as innocent and righteous blood crieth unto him , and the souls of the just complain continually ; so the Lord will surely avenge them , and receive unto him all the righteous blood from among them * behold his people hath been led as a flock to the slaughter , but he will not suffer them now to dwell any longer in the land of Egypt , i. e. under the Lordly tyranny of the PPPriesthood , who is that threefold great City BBBabilon , which is also spiritually called Sodom , for her Spiritual whoredoms , and Egypt Rev. 11.8 . the land of Israels captivity , in the streets , within the territories of which the carcases of Christs witnessesly dead , where also our Lord was crucified . * But he will bring them out with a mighty hand , and a streched out arm , and will smite EEEgypt with plagues as before , and will destroy all the land thereof ; EEEgypt shall mourn , and the foundation of it be smitten with the plague , and punishment that God shall bring upon it : like as they do yet this day unto his chosen , so will he also do , and recompence unto their bosom , and he will make the Princes of the earth to know , that t is Christs right alone to rule over the consciences of the children of men , and that no meer man may sit as a judge there : and thou ( O PPPriest ) shall know that Christ alone is King in his Church , and in the conscience , and the true Ministers , but meer Ministers , or servants unto both , and not Masters over either , and that the civill state is the element , and the Orbe , which the Magistrate onely is to move in under him , and that only meerly in matters civill , and that thy self , who art a creature not of Gods , but of thy own creating , and hast usurp'd a supreme jurisdiction , at least a jurisdiction over all these , hast nothing ( but naught ) to do in any of them at all , and as thou art no plant of the heavenly fathers planting , so shalt assuredly be plucked up by the very roots , from all thy pretences , priviledges , provinces , parishes , and other profits and places , in which thy earthly father the Pope hath planted thee : yea thou shalt be weakned as a poor woman with stripes , and as one chastised with wounds , so that the mighty and lovers shall not be able to receive thee : would I with jealousie have so preceeded against thee saith the Lord , if thou hadst not alway slain my chosen , exalting the stroak of thine hands , and saying over their dead , when thou wast drunken , set forth the beauty of thy countenance ? the reward of thy whordome shall be in thy bosom , therefore shalt thou receive recompence , like as thou hast done unto my chosen ( saith the Lord ) spoiling and destroying them that fear the Lord , wasting and taking away their goods ( tearing them with thy teeth for Tith ) and casting them out of their houses , even so shall God do unto thee , and shall deliver thee unto mischief , thou shalt be cast down by them as stubble , and they shall be to thee a fire : look what thou hast they shall spoil it , and marre the beauty of thy face : and the glory of both thou O poor Princely PPPriesthood , and of all those PPPriestly Princes that adhere to thee , shall be dried up , as a flower , when the heat shall arise that is sent over thee . Be wise now therefore O yee Kings , be instructed ye that are judges of the earth , see that you serve the Lord with fear in your own persons , according to his own will and way revealed in his word , and know , that howbeit you are the Gods of the earth , to judge all men that are under you , whether in the Church , or of the world , in earthly cases , and matters of meer secular concernment , that you are not the Gods of heaven , that is the Church , so far as to meddle at all ( as earthly judges ) to correct in those meer heavenly cases : and though the PPPriests perswade you t is a piece of acceptable service to God , to let your whole Nations be by law from you compelled to be their Churches , that , as you [ civilly ] so they [ uncivilly ] may go hand in hand [ Moses & Aron like ] & share with you in subjecting violen●●y all souls & your selves too to their SSSacerdotall suggestion in soul cases , & that you may lawfully punish Hereticks into the hearing of them , & banish them into a blind obedience to their directions , yet I am bold in the Lord to assure you , that as you should have little thank from him , should you force men to such a worship as ( for the matter of it ) is according to Christs will , against their own , so will he once check you in wrath ( if you repent not in time ) for forcing all men to worship after the CCClergies will against Christs ; for as the first is at best but a piece of honest ignorance , so this last is at least no lesse then a piece of divellish darknese Rev. 13.7.8 . Hearken no more therefore ( O ye the Magistrates ) as you respect the true good of your Republiques , to the clamors of your CCClergy , when they cry out to you to hunt out Hereticks , i. e. such as after the way they call heresie so worship God , whereby they run you unavoidably , if you run after them , upon certain ruine , and on the hazard of fighting against God , and then wo be you , & of rooting the wheat , his Saints , out of the Field , the world in which it ought to stand , and the tares too even till the harvest , and of infinit cumbrances , inconveniences , and brangles about Church matters , wherein , as Magistrates , you are not so immediately concerned as they dictate to you , who are such a contentious sect of men , both with all others , and each with other about one Church businesse or other continually ▪ that t is impossible ( now specially since truth is returning home , which they have so long driven from her own border ) but that the nations will be imbrued in their own , and one anothers blood , in defence of their fopperies , if you engage as oft as they would egge you to it on their behalfs : What animosities have ever been between the Temporalty , and these Lords Spiritual ? What quarrels and jarres between the Fryers of several orders ? what whole Countrey clashes , and consumptions have been made in Germany between the Calvinists and Lutherans ? what inveteracy between the C C Clergy of the severall F F Formes of Government ? which though they can agree all against the true Clergy or heritage of God , yet hate each other unto the death , yea oh the infinite wranglings and little lesse then divellish dissentions , wherewith as with a fire they have wasted all corners of their CCChristendomes , that they have been more like the places of burying dead bodies , then like the houses of Christs flock , yea they have consumed themselves in their miserable burning , whilest in their holy wars they have called in severally the civil sword to the ultimate determining of their spiritual controversies , and made carnal weapons the instruments of their churches warfare , as if the best way to convert the nations to Christ , were to convert them to dust and ashes : how have they foamed upon occasion of different opinions , so as to tear and rend people to pieces , and engage them , & their princes at swords point for their lusts and wills sake ? how have they cast the people from one element to another , one false way unto another , till they have made whole Countreys , Cities , and their own Academies Aceldamaes , feilds of blood , and like foaming and raging waves of the Sea , striving together for the dictates of that kind of Clergy still that they are the Sectaries of ; insomuch that some observant spirits have wisht to dy , and depart this life among other ends for this , that they might be delivered from the sight of the implacable hatred of Divines : all which things also do take off the Magistracy from attendance to their main businesse of relieving the oppressed , judging the fatherlesse , pleading for the widow , and the works of justice , and mercy among their people , which God will have , and not sacrifice , and take better from them , then the improvement of themselves to set up either the Pope , the Prelate , or the Presbyter , or establish any form of Religion whatsoever by a law . Oh therefore that the Powers would consider it ( though I fear me most nations in Christendome will not till they pay dear for their learning ) and leave their people free to chuse what God they will serve , and which way they will serve the true God , by suffering all waies to stand before them in the world , and be objected fairly to their tryall , then shall truth be sure to be told them as well as err●ur , and leave them without excuse that shall reject it : Mean while as to the civil interest of the whole , and each part of their Commonwealths , to see strictly to it that they attend continually on that very thing , for which they are ( when once the ordinance of men by their election ) the ordinance and ministers of God ; and to be submitted to as both the ordinance of God and man , and that for both conscience sake and the Lords , * that they attend upon the protection of all people from being injured one by another in any cases pertaining to externalls , and the maintaining of outward peace , civillity , and good manners in all men to the whole , and to each other by punishing evil doers of such a nature , and rewarding of such as do well without partiality , or respect to any persons or parties , in which cases Regum est parcere subjectis , et debellare superbos : thus doing they must necessarily maintain true Religion too ( so far as they are called ( as Magistrates ) to maintain it ) whilst when all states have trod it down under pretence of maintaining it , that supprest all as Schism that suited not with the Monarchiall minds of the men called CCClergy , this state sets it up as far as men may , or can set it up , that suffers it to live , and thrive among the false : If there be any matter of wrong or wicked lewdness done by any , as well members of the true Church , as any other , reason wills , * and therefore no Christians , but CCClergy men and their creatures , whose way is against reason , * will be against it , that such should suffer according to the law in that behalf , whether unto bonds , or unto banishment , or unto confiscation , or unto death without benefit of the Clergy , who have benedicted all benefits to themselves , and not be favoured because members , or because Ministers of such Churches ; neither is it fit at any that any persons should be spared , or but so much as favoured in any measure in such a case for their religions sake , though it be the true one , and they of never so high account , and eminent standing in it . For howbeit , the men who are commonly , but not properly called Clergy * , but specially the Clergy immediately under the Popes supremacy , were priviledged so far , as to stand exempted from the reach of the civill law , and to save themselves the trouble of being hanged , when they had deserved it as much as other men , by a businesse called the benefit of the Clergy , i. e. the immunity of the Clergy from the civil law , * some relikes of which benefit the Clergy once had , and still hath in some places , seem to me to remain in our civil Courts , wherein we see in some capital crimes , the malefactour , si legat ut Clericus , if he can , but read like a Clerk or Clergy man * , he escapes execution , when else he should have died without remedy , which favour is also called the benefit of the Clergy , yet we desire that no manner of men may have exemption from the course of civil Justice , yea if we whom they call Anabaptists do any thing at any time worthy of death by the civil law rightly regulated we refuse not to die : but as we desire that others should , so are we willing our selves in civil matters to stand at Caesars i. e. the civil Magistrates judgement seat where we ought to be judged in such cases : and thus did Paul , when accused by the Priests as a Pestilent fellow , and a mover of sedition meerly for preaching the Gospel : To the Jews , saith he , have I done no wrong , nor yet against Caesar have I offended &c. therfore no man may deliver me to them , I appeal unto Caesar Act. 24.5.12.13 14.20.25 8.11 . where we see that in case of civil injury charged upon him as committed by him he appeals to Cesar to judge , though Cesar was a heathen , and he a Christian , and not of Cesars Religion , which he had been a mad man in doing , had the question been simply about the right Religion , yea when any question a ro●e in the Church about Religion , as in the point of circumcision Act. 15. the Apostles , Elders and brethren considered of it among themselves , consulting the mind of the spirit in the word , and had they not agreed it , they would not have referred it , nor , had any not conformed to their determination in that point , would they have complained of them to Cesar : and as Paul would not stand at Cesars judgement seat in Religious , as he desired to do in civil , so Cesars Deputies would not meddle at all , as Magistrates , in Religious cases : for when the Jews set Paul before the judgement seat of Gallio deputy of A●haia , and complained saying , This fellow perswadeth men to worship God contrary to the law , Gallio said ▪ if it were a matter of wrong , or wicked lewdnesse ; O ye Iews , reason would that I should bear with you , but if it be a question of words , and names , & of your law , look ye to it , for I will be a jud●e of no such matters , and he drave them from the judgement seat , as who should say , we are set to keep civil peace and right among you , but not at all to determine you in your worships : Oh therfore that the Magistracy would consider it that they are set not to force men to submit all to one worship , nor yet forcibly to suppresse either Heresie or truth , but to prevent tumultuousness about either . If Demetrius , and the craftsmen of like occupation who make shrines for Diana have a matter of wrong against any , let the civill law be open , and let them plead each other there ; but if the enquiry be concerning other matters ( as namely setting at nought their craft , prophaning the Temples of their Goddesse and destroying their false worships by plain preaching of truth , what 's Heredox , what Orthodox in worship , &c. ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 let that be determined in a lawfull Assembly , i. e. as the word is in the Greek insome lawful Church , congregation , or select meeting for that purpose . Last of all though the Lord prohibit the standing of Idolators &c. in the Church 2 Cor. 6. Rev. 2. yet he himself , who could presently root them out , if t were his mind , permits not onely true , but also false worshippers , Hereticks &c. to have a being in the world , and therefore me thinks Gods Vicegerent should not be against it : It is according to the will of God himself permitting , not approving them , that heresies do arise , but its according to his good will approving , and in his wo●d appointing that they shall stand in the world , when risen , further then they can be annihilated by the word . And as the Scripture shewes how far he himself tolerates them , so the Divines themselves ( as shy as they are of having them tollerated ) do Give these good Reasons of Gods suffering of Hereticks . 1 For the discovering of the sound , that Gold and Silver may be known from hay and slubvle , that by the Devills sitting of us the good corn may be discerned from chaff : it is the Apostles Reason 1 Cor. 11.19 . that they which are approved may be known , for who they are that , with the weapons of the Churches warfare , are valiant for the truth , indurers of hardship as good Souldiers of Christ &c. would not appear , if there were no Hereticks , False worshippers , Antichristians , Truth treaders &c. to try them ; true love to Christs truth can never be seen , if never tryed , nor tryed if truth never opposed , hated , hunted , and that to death too sometimes , by the fierce wrath , and cruel malice of its enemies . 2. That truth may be discussed and fetcht out as fire from the concussions o● flint and steel . Truth had not been fetcht half so far out of the dark , nor from under that Popish Smoother of traditions at this time , as it is , had not the CCClergy so hotly hunted it , and so fiercely clasht against all that came out to clear it . If there had not been an Hereticall CCClergy crying out Heresie against all truth , the world had never heard so much of it in these latter daies as now it hath ; and I verily perswade my self , that as the day breakes and the shadowes fly away , the way of truth in the hearts of the Just , and in the eyes of the of the world ( by how much the CCClergy calls Heresie upon it ) shall shine more , and more still to the perfect day , * if Luther and Calvin had not been , and that so fiercely , flung at by Popish Priests because they preached against indulgencies , and selling pardons for money , and against the Lordlines of the Popish Hirrachy , they had not heard so much against them , but that they might have sold more pardons , then they have done since : and the 2 latter litters of Spiritual lords ( that qua CCClergy ) came out of the Popes loins , the two PPriesthoods of the Protestant party might have lorded it longer like their father ( who will never be dead as long as they are alive ) had they not been as iron and steel against truth , and true worshippers whom God makes as hard as flint against their faces , that by their concussions against it , he may the more fully fetch it forth , the oppositions , and imprisonments , which Paul met with from the adverse party , whereby they intended to smoother it in his daies fell out rather to the furtherance of the Gospel ; for it came to be the more manifest in all places by means of errors so earnest appearance against it 1 Phil. 12. to 19. Thus truth hath gained ground not a little in these latter daies by the ominous onsets wherewith falsehood fights it , and would fain fright and force it to hide its head : and wisdome works out it self not a little to light , by follies flying so furiously at the face of it . 3. That the truth mihgt be better loved , and more price set upon it , we prize lihgt the more by our knowledge of darkness , health by our sense of sicknesse , errour is a foil to a Diamond , truth looks more lovely being compared with it . The lilly looks most lovely and beautifull , when it stands among black thornes 2 Cant. 2. the stars , though ever obvious to us would never shine if there were no night , contraria juxta se posita maxime elucescant , contraries set together discover each other more lively in their severall loathsome or lovely formes : the light of the Sun shewes brightest , seemes sweetest , when it breaks from under a dark cloud , so does the Sun of righteousnesse now arising appear the more lovely , by how much it hath been hid from the earth now of long time by that dismall darknesse , and smoak of Heresies , erroneous false worships , and foolish figments with which the CCClergy hath filled all parishes throughout CCChristendome . 4 , For the punishment of hypocrites , nominall Christians , curious Minds , such as have itching eares , and heap unto themselves teachers , stragling sheep fall into the wolves clutches , such as will not keep the steps of the flock , but go after the flocks of the Companions ever fall into most dangers of seducement , all which is most plain by too woful experience in all Nations of CCChristendome , for while Christianity , and the Gospel was professed sincerely , as it was ( saving some remote beginnings of mens traditions to take place against the commands of Christ ) in the first three hundred years , wherein t was evidenced by the ten bloody persecutions that Christians served Christ for love then , and not for loaves nor for lives sake neither , for they loved not their lives unto the death , there were not half so many Hereticks , or Heresies as have been since : but when once after Constantine , Christianity comming into credit , and being not onely owned by the Emperors themselves , but established by their edicts in all things according to the pattern shewed them in the word , not of Christ , but of the Catholique Clergy convened in Councels , as the Religion sub paena to be submitted to , men turned Christians upon such sleight grounds , and were born to that Name of Christianity without the Nature , no otherwise then of the will of man , and were no more then nomine tenus professors of it , the Lord in his just and severe judgement to these nominal Christians , permitted those Spiritual plagues , that we see Rev. 8. Rev. 9. seconded the sounding of the trumpets , to fall thick and three fold upon the world : suffered the Clergy to fall to contentions , jars and janglings about their ambitious interests , viz. primacy and universallity &c. and to Apostatize more and more from the plain primitive truth , and to degenerate be degrees into darknesse till they came at last to be totally blinded in things of God , and blind leaders of the blind Princes and people , that implicitly give up themselves to be guided by them , that both might drop together into the ditch : yea he suffered that great star the Bishop of Rome , that sometime shone very bright , to fall as wormwood upon the third part of the waters , the pure doctrine of the Gospel , i. e. to foist in his heresies to the poisoning and imbittering of the doctrine , so that many died , even all that drank thereof , because it was bitter and unwholsome : and he suffered the third part of the Sun and Moon and Stars , all the means and waies of Christs own institution and appointment to give light unto men by , to be smitten , and darkned corrupted , covered with false glosses , depraved with heaps of heresies , and traditions &c. crept in and authorized by the Pope and his Ecclesiastical Doctors , so that what with the damnable and horribly devillish heresies by means of Mahomet and his Alcoran infecting the Orientall Christians through all Asia , and these Papisticall errors of those Arch-Hereticks , the Pope and CCClergy , and * Scholastick Rabbies , who with vain deceit seduced the Occidental part of the world , from the simplicity that is in Christ , the day shone not for a third part of it , & the might likewise i. e. the third part of that pure and pretious truth of Christ which shined in the primitive Churches , was now exclipsed , and extinguisht , neither had men by the third part so much , of that clear light of Christs Gospel that they were wont to have in former dayes yea further in way of plague and punishment to hypocrites and meer nominal Christians , the Lord at last suffered that star , which fell before , or angel of the Church of Rome , when he was fallen from all his heavenlinesse , and love of truth , to earthlinesse and love of money , and honour from beneath , to open the bottomlesse pit , i. e. the way to the very depth of hellish darknes , and to raise up a smoak or thick fog of errors and heresies lies , & traditions , which as the smoak of some great furnace darkened the sun and air , i. e. totally put out the light of Scripture , and pure administrations , which were but in part ecclipsed before , so that now nothing could be seen , ( as it were ) but Popish legends , and such stuff , by the advantage of which smoother the Locu●ts came out i. e. the Clergy that swarmed all over the earth , in every parish one at least stinging , hurting , wounding to eternal death by their poisonous doctrines ; propounded under pretence of the word of Christ , all persons , save such as have the seal of God in their foreheads , even a few witnesses to the truth , that withstood their doctrins , which locusts are said to be scorpions i. e. carrying a fair face , but stings in their tailes , and to have crowns because of their great power , for under their great King Apollyon they rule all , and reign ore the Kings of the earth : These are they that outwardly wear the sheeps cloathing , i. e. cloth themselves with the denominations of Clergy , Gods heritage , Spiritual men , Priests , men of God , which are the true titles of the sheep , but inwardly are ravening wolves , into whose clutches the stragling sheep that would not keep the steps of the flock of Christ , but turned aside after the flocks of the companions , going at a venture which way the most went , for companies sake right or wrong , did fall , and by whose Heretical principles men are in danger of perishing for ever . Thus when the world would be nominally , yet not really Christians , obeying the pure word of Christ , would not endure sound doctrin , but , having itching ears , that loved to be tickled not grated upon , grew weary of the plaines of the Gospel , saying to the Seers see not , and to the Prophets prophecy not , prophecy not unto us right things , speak unto us smooth things , prophecy deceits , get ye out of the way , turn aside out of the path , cause the holy one of Israel to cease from before us , despising his word , and rufusing to hear the Law of the Lord as they of old , Isa. 30. then the Lord gave them their own hearts lusts , and sent leanes withall into their souls , granted them heapes upon heaps of such Cater-pillars as should dwel at their own doors , and devoure their soules , and delude them with Heresie and false divinations , and as their pay for so doing should devour also the tenth of their labours , nay the sixth in all parishes through the Nations ; he removed the candlestick out of his place , and because they walked not in the light thereof whilst they had it , let darkness come upon them , he gave them Priests that should teach for hire , and Prophets that should divine for money , and say is not the Lord among us ? none evil can come upon us , Mic. 2.11 . he gave them like people like Priest , a people not willing to be taught , and a Priesthood not able to teach , he removed their truth-teachers into a corner , so that their eyes should see no more such teachers , nor their ears hear any voice behind them , saying this is the way walk in it , and so opened the flood gates for all manner of horrible Heresies to flow in upon them , he powred upon them the spirit of deep sleep , and closed their eyes , the Prophets , their Rulers , their Seers he covered , so that the vision of all , became unto them as the words of a book sealed , which if delivered to their learned men saying read this I pray , they cannot for it is sealed , if to their ignorant people , saying read this , they cannot , for they are not learned , t is for their Orthodox Divines , and not for them to read and expound the Scripture , forasmuch as the people drew neer to God with their mouth , and with their lips did honour him , with Gloria Patries &c. but removed their hearts far from him , and would have their fear towards him taught by the precepts of men , therefore the Lord proceeded to do a marvellous work in all Christ'ndome , yea a marvellous work , a wonder , for the wisdome of their wise men perisht , and the understanding of their prudent men was hid , and the Lord left them to do their works in the dark , and to turn all things upside down , and to put a bridle upon the jawes of the people , and ride them from Ierusalem unto Babilon , even to all manner of Heresie , blindnesse , and confusion for ages and generations together . Lastly to provoke the Pastors to diligence , and watchfulness , to prove them whether they be hirelings , or not , such as will flie when the wolf comes , or lay down their lives for the sheep : therefore the Apostle Paul speaking specially of that very time wherein the insolency , and obstinacy of Hereticks , and Schismaticks should increase to such a height as not to indure sound doctrine , but rather to turn from the truth , and turn to fables , and heap false teachers to themselves to tickle them up in their lusts , preach down , and act no patience , but rather persecution toward those that preach up the truth , in consideration thereof , charges Timothy to whom he left the oversight of the Church at Ephesus , in order to the making full proof of his ministry , to stand to it then with so much the more diligence , to preach the word , and be instant in season , and out of season , to reprove , rebuke and exhort with all long suffering and doctrine , to watch in all things , indure the afflictions that should befal him from the hands of wolvish spirited men : 2 Tim. 4.1 . ad 8. And indeed this is that which should move the Pastors of the several congregations of Christ , and such whom the holy spirit hath made Overseers of that little flock of his in these daies , to take good heed both to themselves , and all that flock ; for throw the negligence of the Pastors turning Hereticks , yea wolves themselves in former dayes , the sheep have been most miserably misled , and rul'd over with force and cruelty ; and this will be a proof of their love to Christ above their lives , if they shall give all diligence to the feeding of the sheep , and lambs of Christ , not flying for fear of men from that worthy work , not forbearing , nor shunning to deliver unto them the whole councel of God at this day , though there be so many CCClergy men to croak against them for it : And here let it be well noted , that whether here , or wherever throughout this discourse , I dilate on the duty of the Pastors , and put them on to performance of it , I mean the Pastors of the Churches , which are commonly called Anabaptists , which are among the Nations as sheep among wolves , as the lilly among thornes , rent and torn for their Testimony to the Truth , and not YYYou the PPPriesthood , YYYou the PPPastoralty of the Parishes , for verily he is blind that beholds you not to be no Pastors , but rather H●relings , yea Wolves , Persecutors then Pastors of the sheep of Christ , yea even you Presbyterian Pastoralty as well as others . Indeed you have the boldnesse to stile your selves the Ministers of Christ , but you are wrapt up in a cloud of confusion and contradiction about the proof of your Pedigree as from him ; yea when its closely quaeried whence you came ( I mean as to your ministerial function , and capacity ) seeing you cannot derive your ordination by a lineal * succession from the Apostles otherwise , some of you ( and I judge the most ) do not deny , but that remotely you receive your orders from the Pope , who ( as you say ) not as Pope , but as Presbyter , ordained those Bishops which , not as Bishops , but as Presbyters ordained you Presbyters ( though t will prove but Priests when all is done , if the Antients among you consult the common-prayer book , and form of your ordination ) a pretty series for the Ministers of Christ to descend in : why Sirs are you not ashamed of this to cry out against the Pope as Antichrist , and Rome as an Apostate strumpet , and yet to hold all you have as a Ministry from , and through these , and that too since they Apostatized from the truth ? shall we think that all Christs ministers descend lineally from the loines of Antichrist ? ye are witnesses then against your selves that your Grand-father is the Pope , and so that you descended one , and the same way with those locusts , even popish Priests , Iesuites , Monks , and Friers and that you are no better born , as to your being men in holy orders , then the veriest Scoundrel among them , that depends together with you upon that Hierachy : Mr. Rutherford saies Diotrephes i. e. the Pope is the native Father of the Bishops , and therefore he must be at least the Grand-father of you Presbyters . Yet some of you are so ashamed to have it said that , as Ministers of Christ , you receive your orders , and standing , as such , from Antichrist , that you professe not to act in your ordinations to , and executions of the ministerial function as from Gregory the Great , * but to renounce that , and to ordain now not as Presbyters that were in orders from such as were in orders from the Pope , but rather as persons deputed so to do by the ordinances of Parliament , extant to that purpose , and by the power , and appointment of the Civil Magistrate , who ( say you ) is he that only hath power to raise all again since the treading down in matter of both Ministry and Ordinances , and may as well do it with his own hands , if he please , as appoint you to do it , making him the chief officer that Christ hath set in his Church , to redresse all that 's amisse in it : such a Mish-mash as this was once more largely uttered by Mr. Glenden in a discourse at Swevenock in order to the proving the Ministry of the Church of England to be a true Ministry : But if the Magistrate were any Church officer ( as at all he is not * ) so as that men , that have their orders from his ordinances ( as it seems the Junior Sophisters of this age have ) are ( as to the outward call or ordination ) true Ministers of Christ , yet that makes nothing to the proving of you to be so , that stand Ministers of the old stamp , from the hands of the old Lord Bishops : besides some , yea it may be the most of you that hold your present authority to ordain in from the Parliament , scarce held the Parliament while , it stood , * of any authority at all since the last new modelling of it , so discontented were you that your Northern model was in no more request : yea though you held it such a lawful , and sufficient power , when they made an ordinance for Tith and Trebble dammages , that you held your selves bound in conscience to God , or rather your own good , to obey it , and improved you selves to the utmost to see it executed on conscientious delinquents against it , yet when ordinances for double service came , as solemn fasts ( witnesse that of Iun. 13.1652 . ) so strictly enjoined to be observed by the Ministers of every parish , how many of you drew your necks out of the coller , as not owning the then Parliament to be a power , that you might lawfully submit to : thus an ordinance that is charged topful of benefice you durst venture to let off , but when one came that had nothing but bare office in the mouth of it , then they , by whose orders you pretended to stand in both benefice and office , might give order to discharge it twice , before you would once discharge it . And as your meet Mongrell Caesarean ; Magistratical , Pope-episcopall kind of Ordination , together with that unworthy unPastorlike forcible Obtrusion of your selves as Pastors on people without their free election ; so your Popelike practises and unministerly management of your selves in all other particulars , doth proclaim you plainly to be no true Ministers of Christs Gospel , nor true Pastors of the flock , but rather to be Wolves , Theeves , Robbers , Hirelings that come not in by the dore Jesus Christ , but climb into the folds some otherwaies , to wit the recommendation of great men and sometimes buying the gift of the spirit i. e. a spiritual living , yet modestly saying No thrice as the Bishops when they had given a thousand pound for the place , and improvement of your interest in your Patrons , and do come into spoil , steal , destroy and serve your own selves of them as well as you can , while you are with them , and so away again to make a prey of some other parishes , for verily if you can spie out any flocks that have better fleeces then other ( leaving those you lived with before to shift for themselves ) without their leave , & with the leave of such as pretend to the power of presentment , you l be their Pastors whether they will or no : but if any of you be chosen for their churchmen by a poor people that want a great Benefice for their Cure , they must for you want the Benefit of a Cura●e . Yea what maintenance is in this or that vacant parish , which you are harping after , is one of the main Questions thats about it : yea Ye minister for maintenance , ye teach for reward , ye preach fo● hire , ye divine for money , ye turn the Gosspel into a meer trade , to the learning of which you put men out as Apprentices about some seven years to the universities , and then allow them ( as free men therof ) to set up for themselves and get as good livings by it as they can : where you may be sure of sufficient wages , you will tell men a little of the truth , and truely t is not much of it that you know , but you care not how little you preach of that little you have to preach , where you can hope to have but little pay for your pains . Wo to yee O ye National PPPriesthood , t is too too eviden that you are not the Shepheards of the sheep , yea you are the idol-shepheards , that leave the flock to provide for your selves , not regarding their welfare , when by s●incking away from them you can provide but a little better for your own : you are ( exceptis excipiendis ) saving some few hundreds among many thousands , Hirelings ' that flee to prefer , better , secure , advance , or advantage your selves , because you are Hirelings , and care not for the sheep : you are Pastors that are become bruitish , you have not sought the Lord , but your selves for the most part , therefore shall ye not prosper , but your sheep shall be scattered away from you Ier. 10. yea verily you drive them from you dayly more and more , not onely by many pieces of your dry divinity but specially with your terrible doctrine of trebble damages , in which you drive so furiously upon them , that you drive them both out of your dores , and their own also : you have an evill eye of covetuousnesse , and greedinesse upon the tenth of every mans substance , and therefore you loose no time , while the law of man favours you in it , though not the man Christ Jesus , and spare no pains , but take , scrape , strive , streign , ride , run , rake , wrangle , weary out your selves and neighbours , and all Courts and Committees , in City and Country to have something out of every thing , for doing worse then nothing , till you not onely trebbly endamage , but totally undo many poor mens wives and childrens bodies , and your own souls too ( except ye repent , little considering that an inheritance gotten hastily in the beginning , shall not be blessed in the end ; you devour widowes houses , and for a pretence make long prayers , and therefore will receive greater damnation ; you Tith * mint and rue , and all manner of herbs , corn * , lamb , wool , milke , egges , calves , pigs , apples , peares , plums , flax , hey , hens , hops , hemp , wood , houses , cum multis aliis , quae nunc praescribere longum est , either in kind , or pecunialiter , but you passe over judgement , mercy , faith , and the weighty matters of Christs law you eat the fat , and cloth your selves with the wool , and kill them that are fed , but you feed not the flock ; you even flea the very flesh from mens bones , for your un-dues , and that such men too sometimes , whom your selves are , so far from teaching , that you have need to learn of them , which be the first principles of the oracles of God : you feed your people with words , but not with the word : you strengthen not the diseased , but strengthen them in their diseases ; you strengthen the hands of the wicked , that they do not return from their wickednesse , and discourage the hearts of the righteous : you run from place to place , parish to parish , parsonage to parsonage , pretending you have Christs call from this to that , when the loadstone that leads you is the love of lucre : and when you are about to leave one living for the love of another , you often dance a while between both , serving them by turns , by the halves , till the half year be expired , that you may have your half years hire from both places , and when you take your leave of the flock , which you fleec't before , then what a deal of do there is to part , and such scrape sometimes , as if it went to the hearts of you , that you must forsake them ; then there is farewell speeches , farewell Sermons , farewell all at once , once for all , the Lord be with you , and such like ; but the devil may take them all , and be their minister if he will for you , if you can but get Christs call to a bigger living , or some more emolumentall employment : And howbeit , you parish PPPastors can give your selves a dispensation from Christ to run away ( for selfs sake ) when you please from your flocks , yet if any of your flocks run away from you ( for Christs sake ) to other Pastors , many of you take on heavily at this , saying t is a most miserable thing , that when you have converted them , and been a means of opening their eyes * , they should presently run away from your ministry : you may separate your selves it seems without sin from them , for more Tith , but if they separate themselves from you for more Truth , this is such a h●gh piece of Schism , and iniquity in the Church , as deserves to be sharpely censured by the State , at least if they abide not in all conformity to the cry of your wide mouthd coffers ? which if they do there 's so much the more content : yea let them run to what Pastors they will , so they still stand Paymasters to you , for what said one even what many more of you proclaim is in your minds , by your mindlesseness of ministring to men in spiritual things , any farther then they minister to you in carnal viz let them run to the devil if they will ( quoth he ) ( for so you judge they do when they run from you to God ) so they will but pay us our tithes . How justly may even England say as Isaiah said of Israel of old Isa. 56.10.11.12 . his watchmen are all blind , they are dumb dogs that cannot bark , ( but bite they can bitterly if men put no into their mouthes ) sleeping , lying down , loving to slumber , greedy dogs that never have enough , all looking to their own way ; every one to his gain from his quarter . And as you can shift and flee from flock to flock , and stand in several livings one after another , & some of you in two or three together in the same creeds , catechisms , formes of worship , Government &c. for your own earthly ends , and emoluments , so can you stand under severall postures , practises , creeds , catechisms , forms of worship , government in the same livings rather then lose them , when time and tide turns so strongly upon you , as to turn you out of your places , if you turn not with it . Yea verily you are the most subtle , shifting , sinful , shameful , shuffling , self Saviours ( some few still excepted , for those that know their innocency in this , I speak not of them , but if any mens consciences tell them , I speak of them , I speak of them indeed ) from suffering joyfully the spoiling of your goods , turning out of your houses , in the troublous turnes of times , for your professed conscience scruples , that are to be found throughout the earth : hence it is that you are generally quiet under the absence of that which you strictly pleaded for as truth , while it stood , and under the establishment of that which you stiled , and stickled against as error , till it was set up , when the remove was made by the hand of that authority , that was like to remove you out of your places if you sided not with it : you suspend the removal of known corruptions , and practise of known truths many times , unlesse the whole state will move all in a body with you , and unlesse all men may be made to march your way by Canons , Ordinaces and Acts , yea one order for this or that from the Rulers hath often given you a more clear sight of some things you seemd not to see before in an hour , then bare reason would have done in a year : from your Masters to you , as well as to your servants from you stat pro ratione voluntas . Hence it is that the same persons could ever serve the nations in the office of Priesthood under powers never so different , never so contradictory one to other in principles , postures , practises , government , discipline , liturgies , formes , Creeds , Catechisms , when there was no other remedy , though till the sword decided it there was nothing , but deadly implacability , irreconcileablenesse to each others waies , maugre all that the word could do among you : witnesse the case of Common prayer , which many of you saw to be a corruption , yet kept to it while t was dangerous to decline it , and till Authority took it away ; what Authority had to do to take it away by force from them , whose conscience , being blinded , perswaded them they ought to use it , I leave to authority to examine , yet sure I am that Authority hath no Authority from God , if it be a corruption , to excuse , impower or authorize any one to practise it without sin , for so much as but an hour ; and many of you , that could not see it to be any corruption at all , but rather such a thing as would pluck up all Religion by the rootes , till such time as Authority did remove it under that name , on pain of five and ten pounds forfeiture to them that used it , did then see it a corruption , and imbraced the Directory in its stead , and did not sleep , as before , but were changed in a moment ; yea we cannot be ignorant ( for who so blind as they that cannot see what they cannot but see ) of the Protaean practises of you Priesthood , who since the new moulding of things here in E●gland from the depth of Popish darknesse , have been the most self preserving sect as is to be seen this day in the world , keeping together Catervatim in covents , Counsells , Classes , and as trooping , so trumpeting together for the most part in one tone according to the tempers of the Princes in whose times you happened to be trained up , or have a being in , against all that as Heresie which you saw the Higher Powers , or general Assemblies of the Kirk directing , and State correcting , would have so , and ( saving some few still among as well the Popish , as Prelatick , and Presbyterian Priests ( for its a hard case , if there be never a consciencious Priest at Rome ) that would say otherwise then you all said ) saying and unsaying , seeing and unseeing , turning and returning changing and unchanging ▪ singing a new song , and unsinging it again , agreeing to speak with one mouth like the Prophets that Prophecyed before Ahab 1 Kin. 22.13 . who all , save one Micaiah , said but one thing , and nothing still but good , good to please the King : so that whereas of old it was throughout all Christendome like Priest , like Prince , like People ( the heart of all Kingly power being hammered to the will of the Whore , with whom it was enamoured , Ahab being not a little overwiv'd by Iezebell that stole the breeches from him while he lay in bed with her , and ran a whoring after her from the Lord ) so now since the civil Powers in these parts are resolved to be suprem , and to be no more such underlings , as to crouch any further then Consultativè about religion to any of the three parts of the Tripple Crown , you the Priesthood seeing all your Pomp depend upon your obedience to the Sic volo , Sic jubeo of King Henry and his Successors , it hath been here like Prince , like Preist , like People ; me thinks I here you say , O yee time-serving , Prince Pleasing Priesthood , Tempora mutantur & nos mutamur in illis ; let us have our fees , the fleece , and let the flock feed how they will. Kings , Popes , or People , which ere Supreme do sit , May let Religion be as you think fit : We cannot but be aware , unlesse we will wink , how the body of you the Priesthood have , for livings sake , like reeds in the tide leaned this way and that way , even which way soever the waters have turned , and stood under K. Henry Papists , under K. Edward Protestants , under Q. Mary Papists , under Q. Elizabeth , and K. Iames Protestants , and though you were ever eager for that form of Government and Worship still that was in present being , pleading the truth of it , as if you would have lost your lives rather then left it , crying out that Religion it self was taken away if that were not continued , as of old for Masse , and Popes supremacy , and more lately for Common prayer and Episcopacy , and more lately yet for a Synodian Supremacy , and Scottish Directory , yet like children crying for the losse of some Gaudy Hornbook , or Gilded Primmer , a new Book , a new Psalter and Festraw , a New Testament or Will of the State streight stops your mouths , so that any form else , if it be an indifferent Independency may serve the turn , specially when you judge it may cost you a whipping , if you grumble and conform not . Thus whilest truly tender spirits like a few harmlesse flies are catcht in the Cobwebs of mens lawes about Religion , the Spider creeps clear over all , and lives it out under Papacy , Prelacy , Presbytery , under commands of King , Parliament , and Army , under the impositions of Masse , Liturgy , Directory , and should a law be made ( as I desire of the powers there never may ) for conformity to the true form indeed , may as well ( for ought I know ) begin again with the Baptists in the principles or A B C of Christs doctrine Heb. 6.1 , 2. and primitive practice . You professe ( you Protestant Priests ) to be Reformers in these times , and places , and bringers back of Gods people from Babylon to Sion , but verily you hold them back from Returning so fast , and so far homeward to the truth , as some do , & more would do , were it not for you , who rather rap them in , then help them on that run faster , then your coveteous turns can afford them to do in this work of reforming by the word , yea you are the greatest hinderers and retarders that are , of that perfect reformation of all things according to the plain pattern of the word , which yet upon several occasions since Protestanism came up you have protested for your selves , and also pressed , not to say ( what in you lies ) forced , all people to protest for with you . How is it else that men , when they passe but a little from you Watchmen , find him who their souls love , and being first ashamed of your , and their abominations , while by implicit faith they dwelt under the shadow of your Ministery , see the form , and fashion , the commings in and goings out , and even all the ordinances and the lawes of Christs house , and keep and do them in some measure , and not tarrying for man , Mic. 5.7 . nor waiting for the Sons of men , are , if not fully reformed , yet daily reforming according to their covenant , viz. the word of God and example of the best reformed Churches , viz. Iudaea , Rome in her first and true glory , Corinth , Galatia , Ephesus , Plilippi , Colosse , Thessalonica &c. Yet you , even you Watchmen are blind , and found beating , and abusing the spouse , for her inquiries , and sit like a company of Black Ravens or Rooks in a mist , gaping after what way the whole body will take their flight , before any Individuall , though never so clear in discovery of the right , dare once move from his standing before his fellowes : you wait one upon another Sperantes omnes in singulis , singuli in omnibus for light but behold obsurity , for brightnesse but you walk in darknesse . You groap for the way like the blind , like them that have no eyes , calling out help King , help Houses , help Councells , help Neighbour Nations , help Brethren of Scotland , from all which because they are men ▪ and not God , flesh , and not spirit , there comes no help at all , save help to Gods people against you , and such help too , that he that helpeth you shall fall , and you that are holpen shall fall down , and you shall all fall together and none deliver . You are sworn as well as we in the sight of both God and men to reform according to the word , and that word is nigh enough , even in your mother tongue , bibles , hearts and mouths , viz. the word of faith which we preach : Neither is it far off you unless your shutting your eyes against it , and putting it away from you , hath engaged the Lord to shut up your eyes , and put it further , so that because seeing you would not see , thereupon seeing you shall not : You have also promise enough from Christ to know his will in his word if you look to him onely and to it : Yet you say , who shall go up to heaven to bring Christ down to us again ? who shall descend into the deep to bring Christ to us from the dead ? who shall go beyond the Sea for us , viz. Holland , Germany , &c. and bring the word unto us , that we may hear it and do it ? who shall go into Scotland and brings us a directory and platform of government from them ? You swear to reform after the example of the best reformed Churches , but you mean of Europe , not of Asia sure , not the congregations you read of in the word , but the Nations you dote on in the world viz. Scotland , Holland , Denmark , Swethland , Germany &c. which all qua Nations ( excepting such in them as truly fear God and worship him answerably to his will ) are together with this , till they be converted to the faith by the spiritual and the civil sword , and then ( not in nonage ) baptized ( not sprinkled ) in the name of Christ , with confession , and for remission of sins , and then walk in free ( not forced ) fellowship in breaking b●ead and prayers , are as far in sano sensu from the denomination of true Churches , and have as much need of reforming , as our selves . Indeed you talk of Church , of Orthodoxnes and reformation , as the thing much desired , making them the Hereticks and Schismaticks that side not with you : see Baxt. p. 151. We prayed for reformation , and the progresse of the Gospel , we fasted and mourned , and cryed to God , we waited and longed for it more then for any worldly possession ; indeed we overvalued it , and had too sweet thoughts of it , as if it had been our heaven , and rest , therefore t is just in God to suffer these men ( meaning the Anabaptists ) to destroy our hopes , and if they root the Gospel quite out of England its just in God , but yet we hope they shall be but our scourges , and that God is but teaching us the evil of their Schisms &c. But Sirs , what is that hoped for reformation of yours , the pure Gospel you Presbyters so much talk of , which those that hinder and hold not with you in , are all sentenced for Schismaticks ipso facto : for my part I could never find what reformation more in ordinances , discipline , doctrine and government , you Presbyterian Priesthood aimd at , then establishment of the Scottish faith and the removal of the Bishops , and their superstitious Clergy as they removed the Popish before out of place , that themselves might reign as tyrannically in their steads ; the pulling down of red glass windows , and placing of white , the knocking down of Fonts , and setting up Basons to Rantize in , the forcing the fathers to say the same at the Font , that the God-fathers did in old time , the observation of your own directory instead of the old liturgy , giving the supper to none at all ( for most riged Presbyters have denied that to their whole parishes this seven year ) instead of giving it promiscuously to all , levelling the maintenance of the Nations ministry , so that every one may have a competency of an 100d per annum ; and not some all , some none as in old'n time , and a few such trivial translations , in which the Gospel is no more promoted , reformation according to the primitive faith and baptism far lesse furthered , then it would be , if never a penny might more be paid to the Priests that preach for hire while the world stands , such a reformation indeed you have generally overvalued , therefore its justice in God to you , and mercy to the whole land , to suffer his people to prosper in their preachings of the truth to the utter destroying of your hopes , which if they were not more after worldly possessions in many of you that settled your selves in 100ds per annum by the shift , then after that which is truth indeed , t will be the better for you another time , but I testifie it to the faces of you that for all your prayings , and fastings , and mournings , and cryings to God , and waitings , and longings for Reformation , you are the fiercest opposers of the primitive practise under heaven . T is true you CCClergy are some more reformed then some , you differ each from other as Papal , Prelatick , Presbyterian , facing each other a squint as the three corners in a Triangle falling out , and contending bitterly with one another about your own false wayes , yet canina utentes facundia , concurring to bark altogether against the true : yea even you Protestant Priests , yea you Presbyters , that pretend more strictly and peculiarly to the title of Preachers , and Presbyters of the truth , and more serious searchers after it in prayer and supplication , are together with the flat Popish Priests grosse hiders of the truth as it is in Jesus , for the revealing of which to your selves , you seem ( and that sometimes with fasting ) earnestly to pray to God , and for the revealing of which to them in preaching you seem ( and that sometimes Iure divino ) to take pay from men . You cry mightily indeed after knowledge , and lift up your voices for understanding , saying , Lord direct us more and more into the way of truth , for we are blind and ignorant , and in the dark , neither know we what to do , but our eyes are to thee , give us pure ordinances , shew us the right way &c. but if in any of your publique places never so soon after your prayers the Lord stirre up the spirits of any of the messengers of his Churches , that go forth in power , and plainness of speech , to make offer of any question or further information , you are so far from that candor , which the Rulers of the Jewish Synagogues used in this case Act. 13. and from saying men and brethren if you have any word of exhortation to the people say on , that you rather rate them as dogs out of doors , with what make you here to disturb us ? we must have an order taken with you to make you hold your peace , and such like rough repulses , as 100ds of people know are used , by more then one of you Querists after truth , and yet you tell us of running into corners , as refusing , and unwilling to be be openly examined ; and tell your people that veritas non quaerit Angulos see Featley p. 167 and that we creep into houses , as if we were ashamed to come out into your publique assemblies , though we tell you ore and ore again , that as t is more for want of your leave , then our love so to do , that we do not tell the truth there before your faces , so our meetings , when in private houses , are more publique then yours , when in publique places , by how much where ere we are , and what ere we say , we submit not onely to your accesse , but your exception also , as you , though in publique , do not to ours . You professe your selves desirous to have all things come to light before all , that all things may be proved by your people , and indeed , though he that doth evil hateth the light , neither ●ometh to the light lest his deeds should be reproved , John 3.21.22 . yet he that doth truth cometh to the light that his deeds might be made manifest , that they are wrought in God , yet the means and courses by which truth should be tryed , which are plain and not puzzling discourses upon the Scripture , you smother by all the means and courses you can conveniently devise , as for any entire discourses of such as are contrary minded to you , though teachers of truth as t is in the word , these you cannot away with at any hand , nor permit to be used in publique before the people , while you have any powar to shut your pulpit doors upon them , you bid your people now or then prove all things , that they may find out which is good , and shun the evil , but by your good-evil will they shall hear no more then what you tell them , and chuse whether they 'l take that for truth or nothing , you bid them cut where they like , and yet you 'l be their carvers , and force them to feed upon what you offer them or fast , and welcome , for no more messes must be meddled with , though they have never such a mind to cut and try , then what is of your dressing , & that oft is no more then some sugar sopt , sententious Academical , bespangled , hide bound , glasse measured , spirit stinting stuff , which may challenge the name of duncery , baldnesse , babling and prating , more then that sincere milk of the word you commonly call so , which hour of divinity when you have bookt down and cond with no little care , is many times but Sed , and some●imes but Red ore when all 's done neither : yet oft times you crow couragiously upon your own dunghil , you pay it soundly in your own pulpits with convincing , and opposing the approach of heresies , and argue so substantially against them that you carry the cause , and win all , but t is because you play there by your selves ; for if any chance to hear you , that hath never so much wherewith to undeceive your deluded people , yet they may not receive his interrupted reply to never so little : when you in the first place have pleaded your cause , the next thing to be done is for all them , that hear and have ought against you to hold their peace ▪ they must not andere audire alteram partem least they be infected , though wise men know there is no other way to be perfected in the knowledge of the truth , and freed from that hobnob implicit faith , which is wrongly acted , when rightly objected , then by hearing all that is to be said against it as well as for it ; yea the heathen herein may be thy Tutor , O PPPriest , Qui statuit aliquid &c. You cry out they are not Orthodox that oppose you , and so forbid all audience of them to your people , whom you feed with a word and a blow , a bit and a knock , lest if they be not as well corrected into a refusal of all direction from others , as directed by your selues , they quickly discern difference between you and them : yet you would fain be counted free and forward , that all should have liberty according to their duty to try all but the niggard shall never be called liberall , nor the churl said to be bountiful for me , for he deviseth not the liberal things , whereby the liberal shall stand , yea the instruments of the churl are evil , and he deviseth wicked devices , to destry the poor with lying words , when the needy spoaketh right things : yea his heart works iniquity , to practise hypocrisie , and to utter error befor the Lord , to make empty the soul of the hungry , and to cause the drink of the thirsty to fail , Isa. 32.5.6.7.8 . As for pro and con discourse , or disputation , you smother that likewise with all your might , for as you desire no more of it then needs must , so you decline it what you can , and disclaim it too , as far as you dare for shame be seen in such a service as disputing against disputing is , declaiming against it as a dismal thing of some dangerous consequence , poison , means of infection , contentionem , scabiem and such like : being sensible of your sores you come not to the stake to be questioned in your waies before your blind admirers , but when you cannot with credit ( considering your over shooting your selves sometimes in hasty challenges ) make a cleanly come off without it , though it be to meet with those that are inferiour to your selves , save that the Lord is with them ; for surely you see somewhat further then a mole into a milstone , that things are no better with you then they should be , why else should there be such loathnesse ( like that of the Elephant , that 's loath to drink in fair waters for fear of seeing a foul face ) to come to the light , as we find there is in the most of you , as well as in Dr. Gouge , who would at no hand vouchsafe any publique discussion of in●ant-sprinkling , whether it were of God or man nec per se , ne per synodum , in his parish with Dr. Chamberlain : yet sometimes Euphoniae gratia for reports sake you make some pretty put offs in publike , and put on tooth and nail for disputation , but alas you curtail it into so narrow a compasse , as namely half a day , two hours , or some odd end of an after-noon , when two dayes is too little , two weeks scarce enough , two years not too much to discusse the truth in ; witnesse not onely Iude , who bids the Saints of the last times ( saving Tertullian , and Sir Henry Wottons dislike out ) contend for the faith once delivered to the Saints , and Paul , who for 2 years space disputed dayly in the School of one Tyrannus ( not such a Tyrant to the truth as you are , it seems , for if he had he would have admitted not a word out ) you confine it I say into such a corner of time , that as Pilate askt what 's truth ? and , when he had so said , went his way without an answer , so you hast to have an end , not hearing half the half quarter that is to be said , in opposition to your own opinions about that question : And during that little while the busines lasts , you carry all as much as you can above the reach , and beyond the capacity of plain minded men and women that come together for resolution , in Scholastick terms , and conclave it from their cognizance under the lock and key of your Linsey wolsey Logick , which is neither fine enough for the University , from which you have a while discontinued , nor home-spun enough for the Country ; which muddy way of mood and figure , is neither suitable to the simplicity and plainess of speech in which the Gospel ought to be declared , and discussed , nor reasonable to reason in with Russet Rabbies , that are otherwise reasonable enough to give you such reasons of their faith and practise , as you can never rationally resist ; nor is it much more profitable to our honest hearted people then if you spake wilde Irish. And when you have done then you smother and cloud over all , that was more plainly and punctually answered , and uttered to you on truths behalf , in some true counterfeit Account or other , in many , if not most of which waies this Ashford Dispute , as I have already shewed before , both was , and was designed to be smothered . Thus like the fish Caepia , when you are like to be catcht with playing too neer the mouth of plain truth , you cast a flood of ink behind you , and darken all that 's done , and like the Lizard , making good prints with your feet , putting on as fair pretences as may be , of willingnesse to try , and have all things seen as they are , upon the forepart of your work , and then dashing all out with your tail , and blurring all ore again with with some after and hinder part practises , whereby to hinder the truth still from taking place in the spirits of the people . As your Fathers have done before you for ages and generations together , so do your selves in this point , & more too not a few , Their delight was to hide their counsels , and to do their works in the dark , that they might say who seeth and who knoweth us ? Yea the whole Creation of you out of the Chaos of Romes Catholicon , have been a very race of Smotherers , that have cryed down truth as Heresie , Saints as Schismaticks , their tendernesse as stubbornnesse , their serviceablenesse to Christ as selfishnesse , seperation from your superstitions , and corrupt communions , as Sectarism , singularity ; perseverance in Christs way , without turning back to the flesh pots of Aegypt , as obstinacy and will fulnesse , Church meetings as Conventicles , Church Messengers , who are Christs true Ministers to the world even to the end of it , approving themselves as so , ( as few of you do ) in much patience , in tumults &c. reducing men to primitive purenes of faith , fellowship , worship , baptism , Supper , life , as Fools , Bedlams , Juglers , Seducers , Seditious , Tumultuous , deservedly round and rough reprovings of you who , are more then any men hardened in your abominations , as Elias , Iohn , Christ and others did them that were like you , disgracing , railing , reviling , the one and onely true baptism as Anabaptism , basenesse , Enthusiasm , Scripture searching by the Laity , the onely way of Christs own appointment for all men to come to acquaintance with him by , as medling more then needs , Scripture opening by the illiterate Weaver , Taylor , Shoomaker , Souldier , upon whom the spirit , that onely makes a preacher , may as soon blow as upon a Schollar , a means to multiply errors . And thus what you Popish would smother in an unknown tongue , you English P Priesthood , who deliver it from that , would more subtilly smother in a known , whilest how far soever men see into the word , yet they must see and say nothing , or presume to see no farther , nor practise any faster than the Priest. Yea to shew how little you degenerate from him , you even fill up the measure of your Father the Pope , that wrath may come upon you all to the utmost , whilst in these last breakings forth of light from all that smother , wherewith Synodicall constitution hath overcast it , even since your own seperation from Rome , you damn it all by whole sale for darknesse ; ye are therefore of your Father Abadd●n , and the works of that Father of yours ye do , he was a Smotherer from his beginning , and neither could abide in , nor can yet abide the truth , because there is no truth in him , he opened the bottomelesse pit , and raised up such a smoak of traditions , Ceremonies , Canons , Calumnies , lyes , nicknames , misrepresentations of things to the world , as the smoak of a great furnace , to the darkning of the sun and the air , when he speaks a ly , he speaks of his own , for he is a lyar , and next to the devill the Father of it , when he smothers that which should come to light , he acts most like himself , for he is a Smotherer also , and the father of that practise . Wherefore also as he loved that curse , even darknesse , drynesse , and smother so it is come unto him and his CCClergy , as he delighted not in the blessing of light , so it is far from him , as he cloathed himself , and his with smoak , and smother like as with a garment so it is come into his very bowells , and like oile into his bones , it must be to him as the garment that covereth him , and for a girdle wherewith he must be girded ; this is the Reward of that Adversary from the lord , and of all that speak evil with him against the truth . Thus God hath left you in his just severity to wander in by waies , and to be lost in the laborinth of your learned Legends , till you be all moped , and snared even in the works of your own hands , and smothered to blindnesse by your own smoak , because when you should have Fathered and Mothered the Gospel , so as to have brought it out in its primitive , native , beauty , and brightnesse , you CCClergy men have been the generation in all ages of your raign , that have murdered and smothered it in the world . And instead of Patronizing the truth , and its professors and promoters you have belyed , blasphemed both by the termes of Heresie , Hereticks , and worse ; witnesse Featly specially , who from a few feats of some few mad men , or rather Monsters of Munster , and other places ( hapily like to our English mad braind Ranters , whose rudenesse is in reason no reproach to us , sith the way of baptism , and Church-membership we walk in ( which these either never owned or abode not in ) allowes not , but is more at odds with open wickedness , then any other waies whatever ) who I say from some particular pranks of one Iohn of Leyden and his compeares , that is no more kin to us , then one Ioan of Lin is to the whole CCClergy , denominates all the Baptists , whom he yoaks together with them under the nick-name Anabaptists , an Impure and carnall sect , a cruell and bloody sect , a prophane and sacrilegious sect , a lying and blasphemous sect , an illiterate and sottish sect , all how truly it agrees to those men of Munster and their Chieftan Iohn of Leyden , it matters not , but I am sure as much as you wipe your mouths and shift it of from your selves to the people of God that walk in the truth of the Gospel , yet there 's no generation of men upon earth whom it all laies more claim to then the PPPreisthood of the Nations . For first though you stile your selves the Spirituality , and holy men of God , you are a race of men ( exceptis excipiendis , still setting a side those few , even all such whose consciences do not check them of too little chastity ) more corporally carnall then every body knowes on : yea saving the holinesse that you have in a black box , derived from his Holinesse the Pope , whose holiness all your holiness of that kind hangs on , and from the date of which the name of Spiritualty also i spilt upon you throughout Christendome , from him who thinks he hath , by a promise to Peter , the fatherhood of the Clergy , as much as Abraham the fatherhood of the faithful , I believe it is not for nothing , nor without special respect , as well to the corporal , as spiritual whoredomes and filthynesse residing within your Skirts that the great CCCity BBBabylon that raigneth over the kings of the earth , or WWWoman sitting upon the Beast , or many waters , i. e. tongues , nations , people of Christendome in three PPParts , is stiled the great WWWhore , and Mother of Harlots , and SSSodome , also as well as AeAeAegypt : neither doth shee onely seduce Christs people to commit fornication , and eat things sacrificed to idols , i. e. to run a whoring in worship , and do things that way abominable unto God , but she is an adulteresse , in respect of her fleshly whoredomes also : as for the old Brothel or Italian Ioan , i. e. the Popes Cardinals , and the Catholick Clergy that still retain their integrity to their Lord God the Pope , from whom you younger Brethren the P Protestant Clergy are rent in Twaine , retaining yet that Cle●gyship and baptism , which you had from them , she is so base all over from top to toe , having no sound part , that you two that have no other spiritual being ( as to your holy orders ) but what you have from her , do cry out of her your selves for a whore in grain , as well you may , when , if we search the Series of the holy Chairmen , Spec. Rom. Pontifi . p. 91. to 111. Thirteen were adulterers , Three common Brothellers , Four Incestuous Whoremongers , Eleven impoisond with vile Sodomy , Seven erectors of Brothell houses , whereof every Iillian was to pay weekly a Iulian ( or rather a Iillian ) penny to the Pope , which came oft to four thousand Ducats per annum , One an arrant whore her self , viz. Pope Ioan , alias Gilberta an English woman born at Lyn , who being two years and a half Pope , at last dyed in childbed openly in the high-street of Rome , going on publick procession by the way to the Church of St. Iohn de Lateran so discovering her filthynesse ; in memory whereof they go not in procession that way where this most holy Father-Mother dyed , but round about another way . Besides how chast the other Priests are of this Italian Sea , their laws , privily permitting them to have concubines , but not wives do declare * , by the indulgence of which law very likely it was that one of the Popes Legates here in England 1129 , Iohn Cremernsis by name , when he had disputed all day at London for the Chastity of Priests ad ravim et sudorem , was found that very night in bed with a whore : and how pure the Nuns and Friars kept themselves from butchery and bawdery , the innumerable skuls of infants , that have bin found in moted Abbies since the demolishing of them here in England sufficiently testifie : so that unlesse the Ranter Rant it higher when he comes to the height of his spiritual sensuality , whose lascivious wayes many will follow and fall off to from the true Churches of the Baptists , maugre all means to hold them in , yet the Churches themselves ( to which therefore t is not to be imputed ) are modesty in the abstract to that publick Pandor : as for you two mystical Mistresses the PProtestant PPriests , who tumbled both together in the belly of that old Bawd or Mystery Babilon , and made one with her , till her time came to break in PPPieces , and are yet scarce wholly weaned from her breasts ; t is true you are far more modest then she , for you neither permit stews , nor prohibit marriage of one , as they do , that they may be free to more , nor set rates upon Venery as she doth , neither are so bad by as many degrees , as you are younger in years ; yet are you so bad that way that neither all the white surplices , nor black superflu●tyes you use to cover your nakednesse with , will either cleanse your consciences from the guilt , or your reputation from the stain of carnal impurity , so that it may be said of you as of Israels Priesthood of old , Zeph , 3.4 . her Prophets are light and treacherous persons : Indeed you desire to walk in long Robes , and therefore made provision in one Canon that every Priest must wear a long gown , or canonical coat , unlesse he were one that was unable to go to the price ▪ on t , & then your Wisdoms enacted ( but necessity needs no law ) a law of liberty to wear a short one , well knowing that , as short as the Curates coat was , it would be long enough ere his silken non-resident Rabbi would allow him mony to buy a longer , yea you make broad shewes in garments distinct from the vulgar , & all Laicks , as if you were the onely men that did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or keep the law , yea you love the uppermost rooms at feas●s , and chiefest places in the synagogues , and to be called of men Rabbi , and therefore got a certain impropriation of the Black Garb to your selves , that you might be known from Russet Rabbies , and reverenced above them , as men of God , spirituall men , holy fathers , when yet such hath been the rioting and drunkenness , chambring and wantonesse , as well as strife and envying of the most part of you Painted sepulchres , that few of you have been either pure , or holy , or sober , or spiritual , or godly minded men indeed , as doth appear to all , by the several centuries of censured Clergy men , since this Parliament , put out at one place , and popt i● at another , few of which could be much capable of Divine Irradiations , having such impure minds , and unchast bodies , for the pure in heart onely can see Gods face Mat. 5. Heb. 12. and yet how bad you are , if all were known , as much as some then was , neither do I know , nor yet they , who began to cleanse the Augaean stable here in England , but this I may safely say , that if ejection be the due of such , and if every Spiritual man that is a carnal , luxurious wanton had his due too , 1000s of the present Priesthood might go whistle for their Tithes , and their people go sing for so fair a way , as would thereby be made , toward their having the truth taught them , as it is in Jesus , for little , or nothing but acceptance from the mess●ngers of the Churches . Secondly , as for cruelty and blood , Dr. Feat . himself more calls , then clears the Anabaptists to be guilty in that kind ; for he brings nothing in proof on t , but a tale or two of a tub with the bottom out , viz. of 40000 of them in Suevia and Franconia , that at their first rising kil'd all the Nobles and Gentry there , that made head against them * ; also of one brother that killed another , and of one Iohn Matthias that for an abuse caused a man to be condemned to death , and then executed him , and of one Iohn a Leyden that accused a man of high treason , and cut off his head , and at another time one of his wives heads , these are his most remarkable observations of the bloodiness of the Anabaptists , for if he could have brought more , or more clear you should undoubtedly have had them . By these few instances ( quoth he ) as it were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fimbria de textu by the list and selvedg you may judge how deeply the cloth is died in blood : but alas what 's all this to a sight of the cloth it self ? what a small shew of blood is here to that of the WWWoman , which Iohn saw , and he is blind that sees not now sitting upon a Scarlet coloured beast , araid her self also in scarlet i. e. died red , red to drunkeness with the blood of the Saints , and the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus , spiritually called BBBabilon and Egypt for cruelty to Gods Israel , raigning in wrath and rigor in three PPParts or Tyrannical formes of governmet ore Kings & people , deceiving all nations to drink so deep of the wine of the wrath of the her fornications , as to be drunk with wrath against the Saints , and in their drunkeness , at HHHer will to push and gore them with ten horns , to execute cruelty on them for truths sake , and try them to the tyring of themselves with cruel mockings , scourgings , bonds , imprisonments , stonings , sawings , burnings , hangings , headings , and with such geer as Feat . himself ( as if by his own pen he would prove the PPPriesthood , and their people to be men of blood ) confesses that the Anti-baptists have inflicted upon the Anabaptists p 68.182 , 183. and for which they had no warrant from Christ , viz. drowning , racking , fleaing , stabbing , tearing with hot pincers , and ( to use his own phrase ) the severest punishments they could devise ? And finally in which WWWoman is found the blood not only of persecution , of Martyrs , and Prophets , but of war also , and of all them that are slain upon earth ; for all this verily will be seen at last to ly hid in her Scholastick skirts , Rev. 18.24 . As for the Pope and his Clergy ( fas est vel ab hoste doceri ) both by Featley , and others t is asserted , and that truly , that the devil by him and his adherents , hath acted such bloody persecutions against the true servants of God , and maintainers of the Orthodox faith , as together with such other exploits of Satan , and his agents as he there names , hath been the ruine of Millions of men : all which is very true of them , yet not onely the Italian Seminaries , but our Brittish Seminaries also have been such stirrers up of strife between and within these nations about worships , Governments , Covenants for the same form , and faith , to the shedding of the blood of thousands in war , and such sowers , cum sanguine Martyrum , semine Ecclesiae , that though I know the wrath of the CCClergy hath wrought his praise and his peoples peace , so far that he will restrain the remainder thereof , Yet I can more bewail then either you avoid ; or I avert , that blood which the Lord , that is righteous in judging thus , will give you to drink , except you repent of your cruelty to consciences , and to the carcasses of men for their conscience sakes , and your pittilesse inexorablenesse towards others in the self same cases , wherein you cryed quarter your selves : for you cryed out for liberty still when you were under the Tyrannicall domination one over anothers faith ; the Bishops when they groaned under the Pope , and the Presbyters , when under the Prelates , but when you crept out of the Captivating clutohes , and got quit from the Clerical cruelty of each other , you curb'd the poor people still , and chaltered them up sub paena to your own new found postures , and Impenitent purses , as mercilessly almost as before , and have lent them but little better liberty then the horse hath , when his loadsome log is taken off his leg , that he may be rid to a Jade another way : for what great difference between Rome and Canterbury , save that of old our Pope lived further off us , and of late we were bejaded with one neerer home ? Includamus hunc in orbe nostro tanquam alterius Orbis Papam saies Pope Vrban the second of Anselmus Arch-bishop of Canterbury 1099. when he set him at his right foot in a generall Councell , i. e. we must count upon him in our world , as it were some distinct Pope of another world , and so it fell out to be too at last : a Pope is but a Pope at one place , and so he is as well at another , and what amendment of the matter to have one man that Lorded it , and Pater Nosterd over the faith , and conscience of Gods people removed , and Classes or Assemblies of them stablished in his stead ? yet thus , for ought I see , it should have been , if the Trojane Horse of the Scotch Presbytery had taken place here , which men were mad , being betwatled by subtle Sinons Synodicall pretences to hale in , till some more wise amd quick of hearing then the rest , heard a noise of Arms more then Arguments clang in the belly of it , and so not believing it to be such a Donum divinum , such a Ius divinum as was pretended , but a thing that stood Iure Hominico , Daemonico rather then Dominico , could never since be charmd by any Sinonical or Sinodical solicitation whatsoever to admit it into English borders . Blessed be God that curst creatures begin now to have short horns ; that the Trebble Terrible one , the Trebble TTTribe is brought so low , that those that would have made a man an offender for a word , yea for THE WORD spoken against their word , and laid a snare for such as reproved them in the gate , and turned aside the just for a thing of nought , and were barbarously , bitterly , bloodily bent against the poor among men , that rejoice in the holy one of Israel , are disappointed , else we should have seen ( it seems by Featley and Gangraena ) that not onely Pope Boniface * and B●shop Bonner , but the bonny Bishops of the two latter broods P and P are imbrued also not a little with the blood of Christ , whom they crucify throw the sides of his Saints , for Sectarizing after him from themselves : witnesse their bloody Tenet of persecution by prisons , fines , confiscations , banishments , &c. for cause of conscience ; witnesse their constant crying out to Pilate , i. e. the Governours and Pilots of such States , where Christ would but live quietly beside them in his poor disciples , away with him , away with him crucify him , yea though the Governour strive with the chief Priests , as Pilate did , to rescue him , as finding no fault in him ; but though they wash themselves with Nitre , and take them much sope , yet this iniquity , into which Smectimnuus degenerated , since groanes for liberty of conscience came out of his own mouth , is marked before me saith the Lord : yea had you been sprinkled with holy water it self , yet except you repent , and be baptized every one of you , in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sins through his blood , which so doing saves even them that shed it , you are not onely by eating and drinking unworthily , i. e. disorderly at the Supper , which baptism must precede in Gospel reformation , but also by your cruelty to his disciples , whom you would have crusht if you could tell how , become guilty of the body and blood of the Lord , however repent , or repent not , this I say unto you from the Lord , that your bloody principle of persecution for conscience , and forced conformity to your foolish forms , canons , creeds , chatechisms , dictates , directories , shall utterly perish from off the ear h. I wish the Independents for their turn 's next look to it in time , and take heed of turning aside too much from that precious principle of depending upon no King , but Christ , in conscience cases , neither state Councells , nor Church councells , nor Classes , save onely for conscience to Christ to be subject freely in all meer civill cases , to the one , and for cognizance sake to consult in meer church and conscience cases , with the other , and whom else they please , keeping Church and State as distinct as t is possible , which the CCClergy have confounded so together , that we have lost the true Peculiarities of either , and , as not suffering such sawcy doings , as to have most general Assemblies of the Kirk quâ Church Assemblies , to be tampering at all with state affairs , so not troubling any officers of state , qua State officers , no not the highest , nor Committees nor Sheriffs to wearinesse with representations of things pertaing purely to churches , and church orderes , expecting no more then a passive , permissive influence from them to the church-ward , i. e. to let all Churches , and all religions , Jewes themselves alone to their light , till they see the true one , so be they live faithfully under them , and quietly , peaceably , and civilly one by another : but me thinks I smell a mixt mongrel Independency too much on foot and creeping on , an Indepency by the halves , a Presbyterian Independency , Independency too dependant in church work , upon the state for state pay , enquiring after parish maintenance , telling some truth , and taking as much tith as they can lay their hands on , lending liberty to themselves to have no supper in the parishes , when they please , yet resolving to make the people pay for it so long as they preach , whether they eat a bit of it at all yea or no : A thing I cannot well tell what to call it that has a smack too much of Smectimnuus , and yet t is not so tyrannical neither , nor yet so tender towards a toleration of all consciences and Religions , though of all tender conscienced Christians , as that the poor Jew or natural Israelite can have any room or creep hole by it into the Common-wealth ; in order to his conversion he must keep out , unlesse he be so converted before he come , as to resolve heel own Christ , and not speak against him , as not the Christ , which what power in any State under heaven can banish a Jew out of any nation for doing , I plainly know not ; an Independency that is willing to let Israel go , but not to let another Is●ael come into the Land , so as to promulgate his principle which I'm sure is contrary to the principles of Christian Religion ; or if the Jew may deny Christ , and yet live in the world in quiet , why not another , unlesse the word can gain him to the belief of it , as well as he ? Independents a word or two with you by the way ; no hurt I hope if you will have but patience , I find proposals presented Feb. 11. 1651. that make me amaz●d to think that they should come from Independents , for I took Independents till of late to be genuine Independents indeed , but I see there 's nothing , but may have something like it , which is not the same , and such is your Semi-demiindependency to me . For supply of all parishes in England with Orthodox Ministers , it s propounded that the Sheriff of each County give account to the Committee what parish hath no Minister , ●hat maintenance each such parish hath , what Ministers that reside in each County have no livings , and such of them as are Orthodox be placed there , as the ●ommittee shall think sit . For settling right constituted Churches , that all Churches that are or shall be gathered , signifie to the Committee of the Vniversities or elsewhere , whom they have or shall choose for their Pastors , and that such and such onely shall be declared right constituted Churches , whose Pastor shall be approved by the Committee to be able , godly and orthodox . Fye ! Fye ! Sirs that you will still have such a minglement of Sheriffs , Committees , Ministers , Churches , in a kind of Omnigatherum about the Gospell , and your Churchwork : and that you will trouble the Sheriffs to find what pay is in parishes , what parishes want Ministers , and what Ministers lack means ; if your Ministers lack meanes cannot they look aft●r it themselves , and bestow themselves in some honest calling or other to get a living out on ? or if they cannot , cannot your Churches see to them a little what they lack ? or do you lack to have the tithes and parish pay turned ore to you now , as the Presbyters gaped after augmentations from the B●shops , Deans , and chapters lands ? if you do , I hope the State will save your longing as they did theirs , and take them sheer away root , and branch , and let those Churches , that have Ministers , maintain them if they need , and let the Gospel be preached freely by Messengers from Churches to the Gentiles , to the world , without charging them with it till converted to it , for such you suppose the nation to be now , as well as we , and not a Church of Christ , why else do you gather Churches of Christ out of it ? will you gather Churches of Christ out of Churches of Christ what rule have you for that ? surely Churches must be gathered out of the world : and if so that the nation be no true constituted Church of Christ , it s no true Church of Christ ( for Christ hath no falsely constituted true Churches that I know of ) and so her Ministers no true Ministers of Christ ( for Christs Ministers are not Ministers of no Church ) but such as came remotely , as to their ordination and parish posture , baptism and all , from the Pope , whom if you also look upon with such favourable construction as to own him , and his ordinations , and his baptism and administrations , and what the Prelate and Presbyter sucks in a way of succession from thence as Apostolical , so as to stand Ministers and baptized by it , I shall think the world goes round then indeed , and that whoever chances to get on horseback , and sit in the Saddle here in England , whether Prelate , Presbyter or Independent they cannot chuse , for customes sake , but face about still , and ride back at least a little way toward Rome : or do you hold ( as some Presbyters do ) your ordination O Independents from the Magistrate ? if so he was ordained a minister of God in other cases , but neither per se nor per alios to ordain and authorize Ministers for Christ Churches : yet me thinks I sent you comming somewhat neer that , when you propose onely that such shall be declared right constituted Churches , whose Pastor shall be approved by the committee to be able , godly and Orthodox , which Independent proposition I hardly know what to make of it is so odd : what Sits does the denomination of a right constituted Church depend upon the Pastors being approved to be able , godly and Orthodox ? a right constituted Church is that which is built upon the foundation or principles of the word of Christ , and the Apostles , Heb. 6.1 , 2. Ephes. 2. some of which you Independents yet want ( but go on in your light for me , till you see it darknesse , I can speak but obiter to you here , yet know that if you settle not upon all the foundation even your Church will be a come down castle too ere long ) a right constituted church is that which hath right matter viz. baptized professors , right ●orm , i. e. free fellowship of such together in one body in breaking of bread and prayers , whether they have yet a Pastor over them yea or no , for the churches were rightly constituted first , and had elders after ordained among them as they were found gifted : yet with you the church that hath no Pastor , and he not approved Orthodox , is yet not to be declared a right constituted church : what if the Pastor prove Het●rodox does the church loose its true constitution ? or I would I knew what you mean by constitution ? for perhaps I do not : and why do you talk in singulari so much of the Pastor , and Pastor of a Church , as if you were of the mind that a church might have no more Pastors and Overseers over it but one , whereas t is most evident that there may be more Elders , Pastors , Overseers ( these are all one , 1 Pet. 5.1 . ) in one Church , and that not without need neither when that one flock or congregation grows numerous , for then they oft grow out of the observation too much of one eye : see Act. 20. Paul sent for the Elders of the Church of Ephesus : whether any Church ever had but one Pastor or Overseer in it or no ( if any at all ) I know not , but I am sure the use was to ordain more then one to one Church , Act. 14.23 . Tit. 1.5 . but one cannot Lord it so well , if others be i th traces with him but however why must all this business of declaring which be right constituted Churches , Orthodox Pastors , which not , hang upon the Committees approving , or not approving of the Pastors ? what if the Committee should chance to be Heterodox it self ? or the Major part of it ? or the Major part sitting at that time , when this Pastor comes for approbation , what shall a true constituted Church lose or keep her name of a true constituted Church at a venture upon the vote of a Committee ? and what need at all that the Committees be so cumbered with the care of such affairs ? and what vanity to venture the determination of which be true Churches of Christ , which the Scripture declares plain enough , whether the Committee see it yea or no , upon the verdit of a Committee , to whom other affairs are most properly committed ? let all the Churches come before the Committee , and all people declare their ways , and their God , and he whom the Committee saies is God , let him be God , and not the rest ; will you have it so ? if you will , I will not , take truth upon trust from the vote of any Committee man under the Sun : and if you would not have it so , you were better never trouble Committees with such matters at all , then not commit them finally to them so as to agree to act at a venture as they determine in matters meerly of Religion , and that the true Churches of Christ , who know no King but Jesus in church and conscience , will never do , but prove themselves to be true constituted churches of Christ , and preach the Gospell too as it is in Iesus , where ere they see people ignorant of it , whether they will hear or forbear , though all the Committees , yea and all the Kings , and Popes , and Priests , and People in the world should declare against them . Beloved Friends me thinks you look too like a national Ministry to be of the right stamp yet : I had hoped Independents would never have turned State Ministers , and have lookt so much after State honour , State help , State approbation , State preferment , State Maintenance , for ministering to either their Churches , or to the purblind nation , as I see they do : but Sirs if you be true constituted Churches of Christ indeed ( I do not say you are , nor is it my businesse here to prove you are not , though you are not , till you own his baptism ) but if you be , as you imagine you are , know that Christ hath set in his Church Apostles , or Messengers to be sent forth not by the State , but by the Church it self , to preach his Gospel to the world , at the Churches , and not the worlds charges , and to preach the Gospel to the Parishes , without pilling the poor parish people & making way for the Gosp●l , and the truth by force and law , whether they be free to have it , to buy a●d receive it on such terms as you tender it on yea or no : therefore send forth and maintain your messengers among your selves ( you are rich enough ) and let them preach the Gospel to them , & gather Churches ; but alas now I think on t , how can they preach the Gospel by the halves , and gather true constituted Churches , that yet own not ( as ye O Independents yet do not ) all the principles of the oracles of God , nor all the first doctrines of Christ as that of baptisms , & laying on of hands , upon which together with the rest the true visible Church stands as on her foundation : and are yet not onely unbaptized , but unwilling to be baptized , or to baptize with any other baptism then that Rantism that ran down hither through Rome ? You propound that when any of the Pastors of right constituted Churches dye or leave them to take up some other imployment , they choose and present another Pastor within six moneths , and may have one settled among them within 12 moneths , by approbation from the said Committe , or to dissolve or disperse themselves into other Churches . Good Sirs , what mean you by this ? shall the Parliament and their Committees never have their liberty to attend onely , and perfectly the true liberties of the subject ? nor be at quiet from this wearisome work of approving , and setling of ministers , that are men mostly so unsetled in their minds that they 'l never ( if they have such liberty to leave , as you here allow them ) settle longer in one place , then till they have more means , or be more to their minds in another ? had this piece been propounded by parish ministers and people it had become them , as sounding somewhat sutable to their posture and principle , for t is the usual tone they talk in , when one Pastor having left them , to take up another call from Christ , or imployment somewhere else to his advantage , they addresse to the Committee for the approbation or settlement of such or such a godly Orthodox Divine among them , as they have agreed with ( if they can get the Committees good will , for till then all parties are not agreed it seems among either you or them ) to be their minister : but to see them , whom I suppose to be Independents ( for I am sure they are Independent men that propose the next parcel viz. Thomas Goodwin , Nye Simpson whose propositions these approve of ) to see I say Independents flocks depend , it may be half a year , on Committees to have their Pastors approved on , and settled by the Committees among them me thinks is something shameful : I reckoned that the Independent Churches had reckoned themselves to have had the sole power not onely of choosing , and presenting , but of approving , settling and ordaining their own Pastors among themselves ( but I see I am deceived ) and why may not the Church onely without the Committee approve of her own ministers , to be Orthodox , and be able to minister in their assemblies and meetings , as well as to approve of such of her members to be Orthodox , and allow them to speak as she shall judge fit to speak , for in the next proposal but one or two , it appears you judge she ( without the Committee ) may approve of such . And what mean you by your Pastors leaving you to take up some other call or imployment ? are your Pastors also such Idol shepheards , as it may be supposed now and then will leave their flocks for any other imployment ? what imployment may they lawfully leave their flocks for , with whom they are in fellowship so as to stand Pastors no more among them ? is their any worldly imployment to which the Pastors office must give way so to as to cease for its sake , when it comes in place ? I know but one employment in honour , and excellency beyond that good work of a Bishop , or overseer among his flock , as namely that of Apostleship , or Messengership from the Church , to convert the world , if it be that you mean , I le have you excused , in choosing you other Pastors to oversee you in the Lord , in your Messengers absence from you to preach to the world , but other imployment I know none more honourable then the Ministership , for which its worthy to be left by them that have food and raiment in it : neither count I it perferment , but degeneracy for a Minister to be removed from his Ministership , and Servantship in feeding the sheep of Christ , over which the holy spirit makes him overseer , though it be to a Lordship , a Mastership , a Presidentship , a Deanship ore a colledg , whether that Colledge be Christs Church also , yea or no ; specially if that fl●ck he leaves be left so destitute of another Pastor , that it must wait perhaps 12 moneths for another , and at last , if at long running they cannot have one , must be fain to flee all to pieces , and dissolve their Church and disperse themselves up and down to other Churches . Smite the Shepheard with some better employment , and then all his sheep that were gathered may be scattered , and separate themselves together into severall places : I like this but a little , and am confident Christ Jesus likes it lesse : if you can follow any manual imployment for your livings , as Paul and others did , and preach the Gospel too to make it as much as may be without charge , I like it well but I am jealous you 'l make a trade too much of the Gospel too . You propound that none presume under a penalty to speak in any Assemblies , or meetings but ministers of the word , members of Churches approved , except meetings purposely for disputing , and that where meetings be kept up likewise , persons speak there that have Commission from some right constituted Church , or certificate from two or more able , godly , Orthodox ministers , of their sufficiency to speak , and soundnesse in the faith , except Masters to their families , Schoolmasters to their Schollars , or others to such , as by their callings fall under their government or charge . Then at least civil Magistrates may speak any where within their verge , without certificate of their sufficiency so to do , to the people , that by reason of their call fall under their Government and charge , but others may not , though the spirit moves them , unlesse they can obtain a certificate from some Ministers . Sirs , what mean you to muzzle men up in this manner under penalties , from opening their mouths to speak , unlesse they bring testimonials , and certificates from men ? if any man speak from God , God will give testimony to him by assisting him to speak honestly at least , though weakly and plainly ; if God do not testifie to any man that speaks , so but that the hearers judge him insufficient , or that he speaks weakly , and sillily , and see that God leaves him to utter error , they may leave him too if they please , if it be free for men ( as it never was under the Priesthood ) to refuse what they find not to be truth ; and as they like it not to let it alone : them therefore that are weak in the faith receive , and entertain , though they have no pastport or orders from men to shew , you may sometimes entertain angels unawares : and what if God stop that mans mouth ( as he may do when he pleases ( the spirit blowing where it lists ) who has mans testimony of sufficiency , & from whom ther 's the greatest expectation , and does somtimes when men dote on men , yea and opens the mouths of them , that at other times , it may be sate as dumb , asses ) to reprove the madnesse of very prophets ? T is propounded by Mr. Owen , Mr. Thomas Goodwin , Mr. Nye Mr. Sympson , that such as do not receive , but oppose those principles of Christian Religion , without the acknowledgement whereof the Scriptures do clearly and plainly affirm that Salvation is to be obtained , may not be suffered to preach or promulgate any thing in opposition unto such principles : But in this verily I am not satisfied at any hand , for not to acknowledge Iesus Christ to be the Christ , but to deny him to be the Son of God , when he is plainly preached is not to receive , but oppose those principles of Christian Religion , the non-acknowledgement of which , where Christ at least is made known , is utterly inconsistent with salvation ; yet thus did the Iews when Christ in person was among them , contradicting , blaspheming him , as also the Samaritans did not receive him , yet the civil powers of the world had no power from Christ to curb them , and not suffer them to say what they would against Christ simply and solely I say because of that : neither find I ( as before ) any warrant in the word for Caesar the civil powers of the world to prohibit , or sub paena any false Religions , from standing , growing , preaching , promulgating , practising their own principles , be they Jews , or Heathen Romans , or Dianitish Ephesians , in their several dominions under the Gospel any more then to prohibit the true Christian Religion it self : All Religions lived under Caesar in Christs and the Apostles dayes , and were not by him persecuted , nor constrained , either to be of his Religion , nor to say nothing against it , nor against any other : in after times indeed when the Emperours grew bloody against the Christians , all Religions lived quietly under Caesar , but the Christian ; that was worse then nought , and I think it not a little too bad , and not doing ( as our duty is ) to all men as we desire they should do to us , but the way back to Priestly blindnes , if we put Caesar on now , because he is a Christian , to let the Christian Religion live quietly under him , and none else : for my part I dare not desire that the Jews may not , not onely live , but till , they see better , serve , God in their wayes of worship in the State as well as others , for a being they must have somewhere , and may no where without sin , if not here , for is it more sin for one Common-wealth to let false worshippers live in it , till they see the truth , then for another ? yea and let them and others too preach and promulgate even all that ere they can for their way . Ob. I know men fear false Religions will seduce men from the true to themselves . An. Let them gain what they can , whom can they gain ? not the elect , which in your sense are a sort of individuals , without respect to any thing done in time , personally , unchangeably positively , and not conditionally determined to faith and final perseverance in it to the death , and if they seduce others to damnation it self , they are no other then such with you as are as particularly , peremptorily , and not conditionally onely of their loving darkness more then light , afore of old ordained to that condemnation , therfore me thinks you of that principle of all others , should see no danger of doing more hurt , then God decreed to have done , by suffering seducers in the world before the foundation of it , and as for us who hold no such , though as much election and reprobation as your selves in that sense in which the Scripture speaks o●t , which bids us know that God hath chosen the godly man to himself , and ordained ungodly men to condemnation , not determining the individuals to life or death before birth , but upon account of belief or non-belief of the truth that 's told them , for he hath chosen men to life no otherwise then through belief , and ordained men to be holy , i. e. that they shall believe and live holily that mean to live for ever , even we that know there is danger enough , and yet hope enough too of life for men , that neglect not their own salvation , ●are venture truth among all false wayes whatsoever , which when and where ere it lives uncurbd as it never yet did in England without molestation more or lesse , to these our dayes for a 1000 years and upwards , will shine through all the rest so clearly to mens souls , as either to save them , or else at least to convince them so as if they perish by following any false wayes , that grow up by it , to leave them without excuse , because they either did , know , and did not what they knew , or might have known more then they did but would not : besides if any religion be ( as I am sure the true one is not , though the RRRomish , Jewish , Turkish , and all others are ) such a dead Sea of Divinity , as hath not life enough in it to live of it self , if it may have bare leave unlesse all others that would live beside it be sneapt by the civil sword , so that they must not shew their heads by it for its sake , let that Religion be the Jews , and the Turks , and the Popes , and the Prelates , and the Presbyters , and the Independents , too , if it will , for me , but while I live to Christ , surely t will be none of mine . So I have done with you my dear friends of the Independent way , and shall wait and pray that you may first laying , as your foundation , & then leaving , the principles of the doctrine of Christ , go on unto perfection . T is time to return to talk on with the Pope and PPPriesthood , to whom I have almost forgotten what more I was about to say , being put by it by ones presentment of these proposals to me inter scribendum , which draw'd me on to this long Perenthesis , and off from my present purpose viz. the proving of the PPPriesthood to be that themselves which they most falsely father upon them , whom they as falsely call Anabaptists : I have shewed how though they call us an impure and carnal sect , a cruel and bloody sect , yet themselves are both these much more then we , yea and much more that 's nought then either of these two also . For next whereas you stile us a prophane and Sacriledgious sect , yet that you are a more Profane and Sacrilegious generation then those , whom Dr. Featly calls so , will appear very plainly if you consider either what Sacriledge , and Profaneness are indeed , or what Dr. Featley , if he may be your spoksman , to whom you refer us , doth falsey suppose it , & hath defined it to be , for he states profaneness or sacriledge ( for these two with him are one ) to be the extream in the defect to Religion , to which the extream in the excess ( saith he ) is superstition , which is the offering to God , what he claimes not for his own , whilst the other i. e. profaneness , Sacrilegiously Robs God of that which is his own in a particular manner ; which if so , then you CCClergy men are more guilty in this behalf then any other under the Sun , for , besides that you erre from the true religion in the excesse , by superstitious attribution of such things to God , as his by institution , which are not his , but your own inventions viz. payment of Tithes to you , infant-sprinkling , and many other , which you plead for , ( as if the Lord had required them ) Iure divino , or Iure Apostolico , whereas it is no false Latine , because true English to say they stand Iure humano , et Apostatico or rather Daemonito by the devil and the whores appointment , you erre from it also in the defect by Sacrilegious ablation , and abolition of the true Baptism and Ordinances from the Church , which Christ hath appointed ; this though it be wonderful strange , yet is marvellous true , for though ordinary men miscarry from the mean , but by one extream ordinarily , e. g. if men erre from the vertue liberality by prodigality , they are not covetous too , or if by covetousness they are not prodigal too , but so extraordinarily out of holy order are you , O ye that are in holy orders , that you content not your selves to go beyond the word , but you 'l be behind it too , you will make God own that he never commanded , neither ( to use the phrase and figure in which he speaks of himself ) came it all into his mind , and disown his own precepts , which you make void by your traditions : T is bad to be in the extream on either hand from the truth , but to be in both the extreams at once is to be extream bad indeed , yet thus it is with you , O ye Priests , as whos 's not onely superstition , but sacriledge also , hath exceeded , and by sundry degrees surpassed all that ever was , whether among Anabaptists or others : yea , if you look with a cleer eye , all that of those whom your Doctor of Divinity makes such remarkable observations of , as suffering the hand of God inflicting curses on them for this sin of Sacriledge . The first whereof is Xerxes , who attempted to pillage the Temple at Delphos . * His second , Caepio the Consul , who spoiled the Famous Temple at Tolouse . * Thirdly Crassus , Fourthly Herod , both whose men of warre were ruined for rifling the Sepulchre of David . Fiftly , Belshazzer who was frighted with an hand-writing for carousing in the vessels of the Temple . Sixtly Copronymus that had a Carbuncle arose in his forehead for taking a Crown out of a Christian Church ( alias , Steeple house ) which was set with Carbuncles . Seventhly Iulian together with Felix , who both had Gods vengeance lighting on them for carrying away the Golden Vessels , and rich presents which the Devotion ( he should have said the Superstition ) of Constantine and Constantius dedicated to God in the new Temple at Ierusalem . * Eightly , Rotman with C●iperdolin , who seized on the Church , alias high place dedicated to St Mauritius , a Saint of the Popes canonizing . Ninethly Munster and Phyfer , who being it seems in war , made their magazines , and cast their ordnance in the covent of the Franciscans . * Tenthly , Iohn of Leyden , who sacrilegiously converted into apparel for himself , and others the holy things of God , ( for so he must call them , or else he keeps not to his text , and his own interpretation of it , which is that the Anabaptists are a sacrilegious sect ) viz. the holy Copes , holy Altar Cloathes , and holy vestments which the Priests were wont to wear in their holy Masses , which Iohn of Leyden I should have thought he had been lost , if he had not come in at the last , sith at first or last I find him serving every turn of Dr. Featley , insomuch that the whole six fold tale , he tells of the Anabaptists , would never handsomely have hung together , if Iohn of Leyden the Tailor did not stitch it up , for Iohn of Leyden serves to prove them an Illiterate and sottish sect , Iohn of Leyden a blasphemous and lying sect , Iohn of Leyden an impure and carnall sect , Iohn of Leyden a cruel and bloody sect , Iohn of Leyden a prophane and sacrilegious sect , Iohn of Leyden a sect whom Gods vengeance followes , Who ere is another , Iohn of Leyden is one , You may thank Iohn of Leyden , else all were undone . These are the many instances , wherewith your Dr. patches up two or three pages of that fift piece of his Remarkables , wherein he tell tales the Anabaptists to be a sacrilegious sect , in which , if ye were not bedoted as much as your ipse Dixit ( O ye disciples of Dr. Featley ) you might see of your selves , first that if the actions instanc't in were sacriledge , yet the men were no Anabaptists , for the last are more called then proved so , and the rest , which are well nigh two parts of three , were never so much as named so since the world stood , secondly that if the men had been all Anabaptists , yet all the actions were no ▪ sacriledge , for set aside what Belshazzer did , whose action of common drinking in the Temple vessels , was then sacriledge , as now it now it would not be ( all that relative holinesse of Temples , and Vessels , Places and Things dedicated , the Doctor so much prates of , being ceased since Christ crucified Iohn 4. ) I say set that aside and all the rest , viz. rifling of the things which he calls Churches , viz. the Temple of Appollos at Delphos , and that of Tolouse , that of St. Maurice at Munster , of Queen Hellina at Ierusalem , and the Fryers Covent ( whether they may be called Theft or no , I know not ) were are as far from being sacriledge , as the places were from being holy places in truth , and that is as far as the Popes holiness is from Gods : but to conclude this matter , it s much of a price to you ( O Priests ) whether the matters of fact that Fearley fains , to be sacriledge , and would fain fasten , and father as well upon the Anabaptists of this present age , as that above , be so yea or no ; for this we are sure of however , that either the things he defines it by viz. the demolishing , alienating , or common using of hallowed Temples , Fryers Covents , Tables , Altars , Altar Cloathes , Copes , Cups , and other rich Vestments , Vessels , Vtensills , Fonts , Pulpits , Profits , and Emoluments , Gleabs , Centries , Tithes , first fruits , oblations , and other Obventions is no sacriledge , nor robbing of God , nor fingering of holy things ( as I utterly deny it to be ) or else if it be , that the Protestant Priesthood are more deeply guilty of it , if not in affection , yet at least in action then the Anabaptists of this age : for if we ask , who sacrilegiously sacrificed , and in their sacred zeal for King Charles against King Christ coined to his common use , and unholy war , the plate devoted to their Colledge uses in the holy Benevolence of Benefactors ? did not some of you Masters , Provosts , Fellowes of Colledges and such like ? who , towards a Reformation from Rome , demolished 645. holy Abbeys , and Monasteries , 90 holy Colledges , 110 Hospitals , 3314. holy Chanteries , and Chappels , and diverted the infinit riches , which was devoted by the freewill offering of devout persons , and assigned for the Maintenance of the ministry that then was , viz. the holy Priests , Monks , Nuns and Fryers from the Ecclesiastical use of that Spiritualty to the Temporall Revenew of the Crown , didst not thou O Prelacy flatter King Henry the eighth into this , and the subversion of the Roman Supremacy that thou mayest have a Supremacy of thy own , under a colour of giving it to the King ? who have confiscated the holy Pallaces and devoted profits of two Arch-bishopricks , 20 Bishopricks , 26 Denaries , 60 Arch-deaconries , 544 spiritual dignities , and Prebendaries , to Auxiliations and Augmentations , hast not thou O Presbyterian ? didst not thou alone uncover the sin and nakednesse of thy old father Episcopacy out of a covetous and ambitious desire to steal away the birth-right from the elder brethren the Deans , Prebends , and Canons ; and now that heaven deceives thy longing expectation , so that thy Kingdom falls irrecoverably , and men will no more fall down before thee , nor do the worship , and double honour of observation and maintenance to thy Lording Eldership , but impropriate all that thou gapest for to themselves , together with all thy Vicarages , besides 5439 Parochial benefices , being no impropriations , so that neither thou nor the true Ministry neither shall have any of it , unlesse thou forsake thy errors for it , and they the truth , is it these Independents whom thou falsely callest Anabaptists , or those whom we truly call Antibaptists , that are now acting all this sacriledge ? and more lately yet , who did a way , I mean directive , for indeed the civil power , whom you in your pulpits sub pena'd to it , did it corrective , who I say did a way most sacrilegiously the sacred crosses , viz. Coventry , Cheapside , Charing , & others ? who councel'd away the curious crucifixes ? who spoiled the holy Cathedrals of their holy Organs , and Popish pipes and pictures ? who prophaned the holy Fonts in all the holy Churches and Chappels , because they found the people Idolizing them ? upon which account they ought as well to demolish the very churhces themselves : who profaned all the holy dayes , and feasts dedicated to the honour of Saints by the Pope ( which were more then daies in the year ) and those that were in use under Prelacy viz. Easter , Christmas , Whitsunday , &c. didst not thou O Presbyter ? who altered the holy Altars , and alienated to other use the holy Altar Clothes ? who robbed the old Church robbers the Bishops , and the sons of that Hierachy of their holy Robes , and Divested the Church-men of the holy vestments , wherewith they were adorned , and wherewith also they adorned ( much more then by their conversations ) the doctrine of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ , viz. the 4 cornerd cap , and holy hood , the sacred Sandals , and costly cassokes , lawn sleeves and consecrated copes , silken girdles , plush , velvet , and Sattanical gowns , and cancelled that very Canons themselves that their Holinesses contrived , wherein they commanded the wearing of them ? who pul'd away the holy railes from before the sanctum sanctorum in every holy quire where they were stated ? did not ye O Presbyterians ? hear therefore ye deaf that ye may understand , and look ye blind that ye may see , for if this be sacriledge and Church-robbing , and holy theft , and robbing God &c. to casheere all the forenamed consecrated commodities , then thou O Priesthood art deeper in the guilt of it then any Baptists , yea we are not so much as accessary to that violent ablation of these things , as whose principle leads us to lend leave to those , not in the Church , but in the world , that will use these fooleries , to use them ; yea if we wish the abolition of what your Divines call sacriledge to remove , yet our strength against them is to sit still , and save our paines , and see all this kind of Sacriledge committed on them to our hands ; but in very deed as we are not the men , so this you call so is not the thing you wot of , but a meer scarcrow and bugbear to fright fools with indeed , and not a purloining of holy things * , for as for outward things ( contradict it O ye classicall Clergy if ye can ) there is no holinesse in them now as of old there was , neither in places , nor in Vtensils , nor in Ornaments , nor in Monuments , nor Emoluments , nor in Altars , nor Glebes , for those things that are truly holy , are laid up in the soul , and , to answer your Doctors question , though I have heard of a two-fold holinesse viz. inherent , and relative , in the subject , and in the object , yet as I may truly say this with the Dr. that inherent holinesse no intelligent man ever attributed to inanimate things , so this against him that relative holinesse , none but a superstitious Christian ever attributed to any thing under the Gospel , that is of mans invention , donation and dedication , as almost all Dr. Featleys furniture , and rinkets are , but such onely as are Relatively holy , as are in such special relation to Gods that he claimes , and challenges , peculiar interest in , as his by donation , dedication , ordination , institution , &c. in which regard some Temples are holy , e. g. his people in Church-fellowship , living stones built up an habitation of God through the spirit , but not such Temples as Dr. Featley meanes of dead stones , as are by men hallowed to his name , some dayes as the feasts dedicated by himself , but not any dedicated by men to his honour ; some persons as Priests and Levites under the law , Presbyters and Deacons calld i. e gifted and qualified by him ( not ungifted dumb dogs , drones , and drunkards , so denominated , dedicated , donated by meer men ) under the Gospel ; some lands , profits , and preferments , reserved , and assigned by God as the inheritance of his Saints and Ministers i. e. servants viz. not Glebes , Tithes , Centries , but the heavenly Canaan , the holy City , the holy Ierusalem that comes down from God out of heaven , incorruptible , indefiled that fadeth not away ; some certain Vtensils , instruments , Ordinances , and means of serving him , and of communion with him here for a time , till we come to the perfect , and immediate injoyment of him , viz. the Table , the Font , not such as Dr. Featley means , but the Lords Table , and Baptism it self , the laver of regeneration ; some Vessels , but not silver Chalices , nor the whores Golden cup full of trash , abomination and filthinesse , but the Earthen Vessels i. e. homely , and ( to outward appearance ) silly , empty , weak , plain dispensations , and administrations , which Christ hath chosen , whereby to save them that believe , and to bring to nought the gawdy formes , and wayes of mans wisdome ; some vestments , not the Cope , nor the Miter , black coat nor surplice , stained with the filthinesse of the whores fornication , but fine linnen white and clean , i. e. the righteousnesse of the Saints , imployed in the immediate service and worship of God , for I will be sanctified of every one that comes neer to me saith the Lord ; any of which holy things to alienate , unjustly detain , deprave , profane , or purloin from any of those places , or persons to whom ( what ere the law of the Land doth ) the law of God , and the Gospel hath appropriated , and apportionated them , is that ( call you it what you will ) which we call sacriledge , and is a sin that was never so much committed by any rank of men under the sun as it is by you CCClergy men , that yet of all men seem most to abominate it , and of all sins in the world cry out against it ; for if as ask who Lords it over Christs holy heritage ? who hath trodden down the holy City ? who slew the parsons of the witnesses ? who hath broken the Laws , changed the ordinances , broken the everlasting Covenant , for which a curse now is devouring the earth ? who hath made void Christs commands by their own traditions ? who hath taken away from the sacraments , the right subjects , and manner of administration ? who have justified the wicked for reward , and taken away the righteousnesse of the righteous from him ? who hath defiled the true Temple , and made the house of God a house of Merchandize , slaves and souls of men Rev. 18. a den of theeves ? have not you the CCClergy ? yea your Dr. talks of the Font , and the communion Table , and the pulpit , but who stole away baptism and the supper , and preaching it self , so that there 's nothing but sprinkling bells , babies , and confusion , and one moity of a dinner , and more Pulpit , and Pew , and Belcony , and Canopy , and Cloth , and Cushion , then preaching , and plain publication of the Gospel as it is in Jesus ? you talk off robbing God in matters of the law , and Tithes , offerings and things that came by Moses , and now are not at all ; but who hath robbed him in matters of grace , and truth , and ordinances , and things that came by Christ , one tittle of whose Testament shall not be contradicted by man nor angel under pain of cursing ? you talk of golden cups and vessels , in which the whore fills out her abominations and filthinesse of her fornication to the whole earth , but who hath taken away the key of the Kingdom of heaven , i. e. from the people and Church ? in whom the power lies fundamentally , and primarily ( for t is but derivatively from the church under God , secondarily , executively , and ministerially in the Officers : not onely Papa but PP too ; see Rutherfords Presbytery , wherein he wrests the power of the Keyes from the people : who hath taken away the key of knowledge , and shut up the Kingdom of heaven against men , as neither willing to go in themselves by the right way and baptism , nor to suffer them that would ? who but ye O Priests have been in these things more sacrilegi church-robbers , then sacerdotes , or givers of holy things ? yea what evil of this kind YYYou have wrought in the sanctuaries of God , how you have laid them wast throughout the whole earth , how you have defiled the pure waters thereof , and did so Claudere rivos shut down the floodgates , that the people could have none of these to drink , and caused all discourses , and all places to overflow with muddy and brackish waters , if I should hold my peace , the stones out of the wall , even those living stones out of the true Temple , that are living monuments of Gods mercy at this day , in that they are alive from the dead , even the dead night of your errors , will proclaim to the everlasting infamy of that generation , that have been the neerer the church , the further from God. Thou makest thy boast of God ( O PPPriesthood ) and wouldst seem to approve of the things that are most excellent , and art confident thou thy self art a guide of the blind , and a light of them that sit in darknsse , an instructer of the foolis● , a teacher of babes , but indeed thou art a blind guid , a dark lantorn , a foolish instructer , and hast need thy self to be taught by those babes , which live upon the sincere milk of the word , which be the first principles of the oracles of God thou hast a form of knowledge , and of truth as it was in the Law , that was ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) long since abolished according to which thou Enthusiasts to thy self a Iudai al , Pontificall , Politicall , Pollitical , Religion of thy own ; but thou art grossely ignorant of the truth of the Gospel , and that form of doctrine that Rome obeyed from the heart of old , before it came to be a mother of harlo●●y , and of such a crew of corrupt children as have since then come from her to the corrupting ing of the earth ; thou teachest another , but thou teachest not thy self , thou preachest a man should not steal , but thou stealest , thou saiest a man should not commit adul●tery , but all the Kings , and their people in the christian earth have committed adultery with thee , thou seemest to abhorre it , yet thou more then any committest sacriledge , yea thou o PPPriesthood art that holy harlot , that holy thief , that hast fingred the most holy things , yea even the holy Scripture it self , which is the store-house , and under Christ the treasury of truth , and hid it from the world under unknown tongues , and a heap of unsound sences , which thou hast put upon it , therefore thou art inexcusable O woman when thou judgest the now churches of sacriledge , for wherein thou judgest them thou condemnest thy self , for thou that judgest doest the same things , which thou saiest they do , but they do not , and therefore is he now killing thy children with death , and we are sure that the judgement of God is according to truth against them that do such things . Yea wo unto you O ye blind guids , ye strein at a gnat , and make it sacriledge , and church robbing , to take Fonts , and railes , and pipes , and pictures , and altars &c. out of your stone Temples , and keep a do about cleansing , and hallowing , and having these outside decencyes , and orders , and offerings , but swallow a camel and demolish the true temple of God , and the vessels of the sactuary , i. e. the ordinances thereof , which is holy indeed , which Temple the Saints are , that are built together a spiritual house unto him , and your selves are full of ravening extortion and excesse : you are as graves that appear not , and the men that walk over you are not aware of you , nor how they are rid over by you , nor how very well to be rid of you , wherefore the wisdome of God even Christ Iesus now sends you prophets , and Apostles , and wisemen , and Scribes to warn you , yet these you kill and crucifie , and scourge and persecute as your enemies , because they tell you the truth , that the blood of all the Prophets that have prophesied in Sack cloth , and tormented you and your forefathers , and your people that dwell on earth for 42 moneths , may come on this generation , and so your house be left unto you desolate for ever . And fourthly there needs no more to prove you to be what you say of us , that we are , viz. a lying and blasphemous sect , then all these forenamed falsities which are asserted of the Anabaptists , when of right they belong more properly to your selves . Yea great need indeed and good reason , that you should be the Plantiffs in this businesse of loa●ing with disgraces , belying and blaspheming , who have bin your selves nex : and immediately under Satan Supreme false accusers of the brethren to the world , and the powers , Courts , and consistories thereof civil , and ecclesiastical for Hereticks , Schismaticks , Sectaries , seditious deceivers , hypocrites , blaspheme●s , enemies to Caesar , trouble Townes , and what not , with which kind of nicknames you the false kingdome of the Priests , have overwhelmed the true royall Priesthood as with a flood , the burden of whose scandals , blasphemies , tales , and disgraces , wherewith you have loaded the saints per mille ducentos sexaginta annos , 1260. years , exceeds any ( id genus ) that the saints have loaded you with in number , weight , and measure , per millies mille ducentas sexaginta Lias 1000000260 l. You have cloathed the pretious sons and daughters of Sion , as the persecuting Emperors did of old , with the skins of wild beasts , and so cast them to the dogs to be devoured , i. e. with the names of Monsters , and so exposed them to the hatred of the world , with the which kind of sport not onely Dr. Featley , and Mr. Edwards , while they lived , made themselves merry , and their friends too , by bestowing Legends a piece towards the support of their severall false wayes , as one great Benefactor did a Legend of lies on the Papistrey , to the maintaining of that which they call the golden Legend , but others also , bely the nicknamed Anabaptists of this present age , and nation as denying any obedience to civil Magistracy , any propriety in goods , as holding plurallity , and community of wives , divorce for difference in religion , as dipping men and women stark naked , and such like . Yea just the same lying shi●ts , and inventions that the Popish Clergy did use to help their Religion by against the Protestants , when they began first to protest against them , and their abominations , do you the Protestant CCClergy , i. e. both Prelacy and Presbytery strengthen your cause by against the Anabaptists , especially of all sectaries . 1. They detain the People from reading the Scripture alledging to them the perills they may incurr through misinterpretation , * you likewise would not have the Scripture medled with by this Clergy of Laicks , Mechanick , fantastick Enthusiasts , profound watermen , Sublime Coachmen , Illuminated Tradesmen , &c. Apron Levites , Sectarian Preachers , as Dr. Featley and Mr. Baily call them , * for they ( say you ) are dunces , and ignorant both of tongues and arts , and so must needs run into errors , and are insufficient for these things , let the smith keep him to his Anvile , and the Cobler to his last . 2. These bred Antipathy between the Papist and Protestant , and debar them all sound of the Protestant Religion as much as may be , by prohibiting books of the reformed writers , and Traffick with such Hereticall Countries , or such places where those contagious sounds , and sights ( as they term them ) might make them return infected . You also forbid your good Protestants all society , and commerce ( as much t is possible ) with these pitchy persons , as those that they can't come neer , but they must be defiled with them . 3. Those by the severity of their inquisition , and so you by your high commission and spiritual ( alias , spiteful ) Courts , while they stood , and by complaints to the next Classis , Synod , &c. as in Scotland , and threats to have an order taken with such and such ( as here in England ) crush as far as you can in your people the very beginnings , and smallest suppositions of being this way addicted . 4. They teach their people to Believe that the Protestants , and so do you that the Anabaptists are basphemers of God , * and his Saints . Those that in England , Churches are turned into Stables , you that the Anabaptists preach in Tubs , that Stables are turned into Temples , stalls into Quires , Shopboards into Communion-tables : Those that the people , i. e. Protestants are barbarous , and eat young children , that Geneva is a professed sanctuary of Roguery * &c. you that the Anabaptists are filthy , and base in their Conventicles , and are for Murder , Adulteries , Butchery , Bawdery , the veriest villains in the world . You tell the world that the Anabaptists would have no rules , nor bonds of lawes : because of their dissolutenesse , which ( though it be true enough of the Ranter that Peter and Iude speaks of , that seperate themselves from their churches sensual , presumptuous , self-willed , despising Government Peter the second Epist. chap. 2. yet is most false of our Churches that seperate from you ) that we would have no discipline in the Church , no learning nor universities . No coercive power in the civill Magistrates to restrain us because we walk inordinately , whereas though we cannot away with your Canons , yet we are the only men in the world for the rule , which Christ himself hath set for men to walk by , even the word , the Scriptures , which onely , and not Synodicall constitutions , nor holy chair we stand to have the standard for truth to be tryed by to the worlds end , and are for all lawes in nations , save such as obedience to which makes us palpably rebellious against the law of Christ , viz. lawes for tithes with trebble dammages , for Christ never appointed mens goods to be streined , and they sold out of what they have to pay his own Ministers for preaching his own Gospel , much lesse to pay the Popes Ministers for preaching a Gospel of their own ? also laws to come to masse in Latine , or Masse in English , or any service of mans making under penalty , we also stand for a true Church that hath right matter viz. professed believers baptized , and right form viz. free , not forced fellowship in breaking of bread and prayers : we are also for the true discipline i. e. Christs ( not the Clergies ) in that Church , we hold also that Magistrates , though their persons should be wicked men and heathens ( for the notion of Christian addes nothing to their power as Magistrates ) are the ordinance of God , To maintain all civil justice and righteousnesse , between man and man , and to restrain abuses such as murder , treason , adultery , drunkennesse , theft , false witnesse , though they have no coercive power to keep men from serving God according to his own will , that power we deny , yet go not about by violence to withstand it but in quietnesse suffer under it , when it is put forth against us : we are also for learning , for t is a good talent , to use for God , and too good for the Devill , a good servant , but a bad master , and we wish that there were more of it then there is among you CCClergy ( if it may be also well improved , as it seldome is by those of you that have it ) for as those of you that are more singular schollars then the rest in humanity , and that meer Anthropo-Theology that is among you , which you call Divinity , are deep dunces for the most part in the school of Christ , and most opposite , through the wisdome of their flesh , which is enmity against God , to the follishnesse of the Gospel , so no lesse then legions of you are little learned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 either . Yea verily , and fiftly , howbeit among other things you brand the Anabaptists with the names of an illiterate and sottish sect , cut as chips out of Nicolas Stock ( whom Featly faines to be the father of the Anabaptists , and stiles a very blockhead , and such as know not how to teach , nor dispute for truth ) because they know not the original , and cannot conclude , in mod and figure p. 113.164.163 . nor make able ministers of the Gospel , because they understand not the Scripture in the Original languages , and cannot expound without Grammer , nor perswade without Rhetorick , nor divide without logick , nor sound the depth of any controversie without Philosophy , and School divinity p. 118 yea Dr. Featley defeats 1000s of his fellow Clergy men utterly in so saying , from the name of able Ministers , yea as he saies of us in another , so may we of them in this case , hos suo ingulamus gladio , we may wound them with their own dudgeon dagger , for if ignorant and unlearned men are not fit to make ministers ; then not onely , their Laity ( which are millions ) are unlearned for the most part , and so by Dr. Featleys own confession unfit to be teachers of truth , but even multitudes of their CCClergy too , for it is none of the least brands saies Dr. Featley p. 164. of the Roman Antichrist that he filled the Church , with a number of ignorant Mass Priests , Monks and Friats , who blind guids ( as they were ) of the blinder people , fell with them into the ditch of Superstition , Heresie and Sensuallity : and ( say I ) the English Antichrist i. e. the Arch-bishop of Canterbury , a chip of the old block , that was an Apprentice at Rome in old'n time , till he set up for himself here , and became indeed what the old Caiaphas , Pope Urbane the second , prophesied of him in a complement about 1099 ( little thinking then ( God wot ) that he would serve him such a trick as to set up his posts against his posts , and take away his custome , and trading here in England ) Papatus alterius Orbis : this English Antichrist I say hath multiplyed many teachers , and feeders , that are far better ●ed , then taught in matters of either God or man , and as few Scholars as are among the true Churches ( if there were none , the truth would stand without them , and God delights in no mans legs ) but if there were need of that to the making ministers of the Gospel , there is proportionably fewer among your churches , considering how little Christs flocks is , and how voluminous the fold of the WWWhore , and how few truly are so , that go under that name among the people , with whom hand tam cultus quam cucullus facit monachum ? for though you talk of secular learning , yet if that were so necessary to a Minister , as the Ministry say it is , it would not onely cut off Peter and Iohn from that denomination , who were though better gifted , yet lesse learned in that sense then the least of you , but most of you CCClergy also , among whom throughout your whole dominion of Christndome , there 's few Country Curates are well studied Scholars indeed , in Logick , and other arts and sciences ; and as for the tongues and original languages of the Scriture ( I speak it to the shame of the Ministry , who unminister themselves in saying it is so necessary ) there is scarce five of 20. know the originall in the old Testament , and not twenty to 5 so well as you should do in the new ; and as for the onely true learning and original of all wisdom , the fear of God , growth in grace , and the knowledge of Christ , and misteries of his kingdom , and the spirit , that Christ promised to his people , to teach them all things , which it were better for you by all your learning that you had more of , unlearned Peter himself may truly tearm the most of you such unlearned ones , as wrest the Scripture to your own destruction * Act. 4.13 . 2 Pet. 3.16 . yea so ungifted are the most of you so much as to pray , and then well may you be to preach , ( and that is to be unlearned as to the ministers office ) that unlettered , or at least unspirited Artificers , may be the proper name of some Clergy men , as well as of the teaching tradesmen Dr. Featly speaks of , for these receive the holy spirit , that gifts them to it , but not many of the Clergy are gifted to pray extempore without book : if I onely said this you would not believe me , but sith your great Patron Dr. Featly , to whom you send us , is my Patron as to this , you must believe it whether you will or no ( unlesse you would have us believe him , whom you will not believe yovr selves ) who gives this good reason , p. 95. why its necessary to have set formes for the Ministers of the church of England to pray by , if they pray at all in publique , for there is not one Minister ( saith he ) or Curate of an 100 specially in Country Villages , or Parochial churches , who hath any tolerable gift of conceived ( as they term them ) or extempore prayers ; which if so , you have smal reason to cry out of others , as illiterate ; yea verily your selves will appear to be ( as the Anabaptists are stil'd by you ) an illiterate and Sottish generation in things principally pertaining to Christ , and to Ministers of Christ to be skil'd in , for that indeed is to be truly learn'd or unlearn'd in quoquo genere viz. to be raw or ready either in that which men supremely pretend to excell in , as the Divine doth to excell other men in the things of God , or else in that which is most excellent in it self , and most worthy ou● being learn'd in , as the highest and most excellent objects that are knowable being Christ and the mysteries of his kingdome , those consequently are the best Scholars in the world that are most deeply insighted thereinto though elsewise never so ignorant . Si Christum nescis nihil est si caetera noscis , Si Christum noscis , nihil est si caetera nescis . Now count which of these two waies you will , the greatest Clerks will appear to be the greatest Novices , the greatest Doctors the greatest Dunces , the greatest Schoolmen the least Schollars , the prime of the Priesthood the prime Ignoramus's that the Christian earth doth carry : for howbeit , O yee PPPrists , some of you ( for the most of you will never be mad with much learning ) even surfeit on inferiour literature viz. arts , tongues &c. and are taller then other men by the head in the reading of History , Oratory pieces of pibald Poetry and such like , yet as to the misterious plain Gospel , wherein are hid , and whence are handed out unto us the treasures of eternity , in earthen vessels i. e. the homely , base , foolish , weak wayes and dispensations which are of Christs chusing , which it concerns Christs Ministers of all men to be more clear in then in any thing else , they are low , and therefore too high and wonderful for you high studied men to reach to ; they are far about out of your sight . Yea I thank thee ( O father ) Lord of heaven and earth that thou hidest these things ( because seeing they will not see them ) from the wise and prudent and revealest them unto babes : yea O Lord how great is the multitude of meer Humanists , that feed onely upon the common Theory of that Theology they have framed to themselves , and relish nothing but what is of man ? how are thy depths , even thy downright deliveries of soul saving truth in plainess of speech by the mouths of stammerers stark duncery to them ? how will not a poor , marred , mocked , misreputed Saviour , and gospel in any wise down with them ? who did of old , and who do still stand out most stiffly against thy gospel ( O Christ ) but the proud self conceited Pharisees , Priests and Lawyers , who while the people believe and justifie God , being baptized with the true baptism , do generally reject the councel of God against themselves , being not baptized therewith ? where had thy message by the mouth of Paul lesse acceptance then at the university of Athens ? where hath the word now lesse then in the Academies , Christian Academies , seemingly reforming Academies ? where , if thou didst not tell us that Christ crucified should be foolishnesse to the wise men after the flesh , and disputers of this world , who could believe that the Princes of Zoan should be such fools , such idiots as they are in the matters of thy Kingdom ? where doth thy truth meet with more difficult entrance , more course entertainment , more malitious accusatious , more captious questions , secret underminings , open oppositions then among the CCChristian Ministry , which therefore is not thine , but Antichristian , because it is both for thee and against thee ? yea who so blind as those that seem to themselves to be the onely Seers both for themselves and others ? ever seeking to thee for thy spirit , yet ever resisting thy holy spirit , speaking to them out of the mouths of babes , as a very babler , ever teaching yet never learning which be the first principles of thy doctrine , ever serving thee , yet ever thinking they do thee service when they affront thy servants , O Lord let as many of them as do it ignorantly obtain thy mercy if it be thy will , and let thy truth shine into their souls that they may be saved : as for such as are more malevolently disposed , if it may not be otherwise but that the main body of the CCClergy shall evermore be adversaries to thee and thy Clergy , Amen sobeit . And now have shewed the Reasons , why God suffers Hereticks , and hath suffered the Arch-heretick , and Schismatick , and mother of Abominations of all Christndom i. e. the CCClergy , that have been Wolves rather then Pastors to Christs sheep , the last of which reasons was this , to provoke the true Pastors to diligence , and watchfulnesse , to prove them whether they be hirelings or not , such as will flee when the wolf comes , or lay down their lives for the sheep , and having discovered whom I mean by Pastors viz. not the Priests , but those of the truly gathered , and constituted churches ; that have separated themselves from the Priest , and his parish popish posture , I proceed yet a little further . For This last Reason administers the matter of this ensuing discourse concerning the wayes how Pastors of right constituted Churches , such as those of the Baptists onely are , should oppose , or rather should have opposed the coming in of these wolves the CCClergy ( for the Pastors of old , through their negligence did suffer them to come in ) and drive them out being entered : What the Magistrates duty is in this case it presumes not to set down here , partly because the Magistrates duty is discovered , and discourst on above , and partly because it presumes the Magistrate will be wise enough in this age , to know what he is to do towards the freeing of himself from that infinit care and cumber that hath crusht him in former dayes , by the CCClergies constant clacking to him to correct Hereticks , Schismaticks , and Sectaries , and crying out to him to lend them his helping hand , and the edge of his civil sword about Church-work : yea and if God who did once put it into the hearts of the Kingdomes of the earth to fulfill his will , and to agree and with one mind to give their power , strength and Kingdom unto the beast , and to serve the whore that rode them Rev. 17.13.17 . and as ten horns to toss the Saints at her will , will now put it into the minds of these ten horns , even all the Kingdoms of Christndom to hate the whore , and make her desolate , and naked , and eat her flesh , and strip her of all her tith , and spiritual glory , revenue , dignity , and burn her with fire , and in their rage to ruin great BBBabilon the City that in three PPParts or PPProud PPPriesthoods hath reigned over them , as I believe he will Rev. 16.19 , 17.16.18 . throughout , as I can neither much help or hinder it , so I find no warrant to cry Alas , Alas for it , as the Kings , and Merchants that come down with her shall do , but rather Allelujah with all the people , Rev. 18.9.11.16.19.1.2.3 . &c. There are two publique wayes , for private are suffering , fastings , and prayers , and teares &c. matters wherewith the CCClergy ( for the most part of them ) never yet kild themselves , nor approved themselves yet as the Ministers of Christ by , as his true Ministers did of old , which have been practised by Pastors in those primitive dayes viz. Disputing , Preaching , concerning both which this discourse intends onely a short survey , leaving the proceedings in them to their judgements , whom God hath made faithful . Disputation ( say our Ashford Disputants ) hath ever been decried by most iudicious and grave men ; Tertullian is bitter ( say they ) against it ; Perdes in contentione vocem , nihil consequeris nisi vilem de blasphematione landem , and I say so too , a man may very easily wrangle ad ravim , dispute himself hoarse , and lose his tongue in contention , and get nothing , but a base repute of blasphemation , specially when , as t was at Ashford , and somewhere else within a mile of an oak the contention is so sharp , that there 's not onely six tongues to one or two talking for it , tuning altogether against the truth , but six bells balling out also to bear it down with : And another magni res est periculi veterem fidem quasi novellam otiosa disputatione discutere , and so indeed it is a matter of great disadvantage idlely to dispute the old faith , as if it were some new one : whereupon , that truth may receive detriment by us in nothing , henceforward we do all men to wit , that howbeit the CCClergy and their creatures claim antiquity to be on their sides still , both in the point of baptism , and other differences between them , and the men call'd Anabaptists , and delude their people into a blind misbelief that all that truth , * which now comes to light , is to be taken for granted to be heresie before hand , new faith , new wayes , a new Gospel ( and this they do more easily and effectually , by how much t is true that the fog of their errors hath been so thick , that men can find but little of that , which now shines forth , in the dayes of our more immediate forefathers , though there were many righteous men no question then disiring to see and hear what we now do and could not ) howbeit I say they have prepostest people thus , yet in order to the dispossessing of them of that praejudication , by reason whereof the primitive truth , which ( however God winktwhile it was a time of ignorance ) must , now it comes to light again , be received in the love therof , that they may be saved , and in the rejection of which they will be damned 2 Thes. 2. gets little entertainment into their hearts ; I here proclaim it again to all people upon earth ( as that truth , which , as I have shewed above , God will shew the Clergy once to their shame ) that the baptizing or dipping believing men and women in that way , wherein we do it , is no new faith , practise , nor baptism , but that one only true baptism , which was instituted by Christ , and used in the primitive times of the Gospel , and that their sprinkling infants is a meer trifle , a toy , a new trick , and tradition of the church , in its beginning to degenerate into darknesse and superstition ; and also that t is a tradition ( though more antient , and reverent then some others : as Mr. Rogers said of it , and of which the church hath been pos●est for 1500 years , as Mr. Marshall ( a little more then he could undoubtedly prove too , said of it ) is confest not onely by the Italian Clergy , as Bellarmine , who said it could not be proved by Scripture , but ( as simply as our Clergy wrests the Scripture into the proof on t ) by the Remonstrants also , who held it but as a very antient Rite , that could scarcely be left off without great offence ; yea and Dr. Gouge also , that would not be intreated to say ay or no to it at Dr. Chamberlains request , now he sees people begin to pry into it , did once acknowledge that it was a tradition of the church ; see Dr. Chamb. to Mr Bakewel p. 3. where he saies he hath under Mr. Barbers hand that he said so , and used it as an argument to perswade him to take the oath ex officio : And I desire all men to understand by these presents , before whom we may happen to dispute this point hereafter , that we declare against infant-sprinkling as a novelty in the faith , and when we plead the dipping of believers , as we are not in jest , intending otiosam disputationem such idle , dribling demi disputes , and dainty dispatches , as the Priesthood put us off with , wherein he flams us i th mouth for an hour or two with the flap of a fox tail , and lends us two or three licks of Latine , and Logick and away again , but a more serious , earnest and constant course of conferring , till the truth be tryed to the utmost , so what we are so careful to contend for , it is no new one , but that old faith and baptism , which was once delivered to the Saints , this course of continued discourse , though it suits not with such , as seeing see not , whose waies and courses are so much the more suspitious to be naught , by how much the lesse they abide the light , And a Modern Author whose Learning and Judgement lives in the Memories of many of our Kentish Clergy , * passed this sentence on it , Pruritus disputandi scabies Ecclesiae , yet I say is that , the very life of the truth is so far concerned in , that there 's very little of it comes to light in the CCClimate of the CCClergy , by reason of their subtle sneaping things as much as may be out of sight , that make against them ; I know the perverse disputings against the truth of men of corrupt minds destitute of the truth , supposing that gain is godlinesse , that t is reformation enough to mend the means of Presbyters out of the Bishops superfluities , is the scabb of the Church of England indeed , but I speak not of the pravity , but purity of the disputation , when plain minded men destitute of all self ends are minded to be serious and self denying , and single-hearted in this work in order to more then either money or meer dispute it self : nor is it Pruritus disputandi an itching simply after dispute ( for who are we simple Coblers , Cartars , Smiths , Fishermen , Farmers , &c. to stand before the wise and the Scribe , and the disputer of this world in that work , if God had not rejected them , and made his wisdome foolishnesse ) but it is pruritus disprobandi , a deep desiring of disproving your practises as Popish , dispelling your smoak of errors , and endeavouring to the utmost of our power according to what you have sworn us to in that kind , to root out , not by the civil sword , but the plainnesse of the word , your superstition , heresie , Schism , and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound doctrine , that disposes us to desire it . Indeed The Heathen said it was a wicked custome to dispute about the Gods , for thereby things certain are oft called into question , nor have they said thus without reason , considering what little strength of Reason they had wherwith to assertain it , that their Gods were Gods at all , but me thinks it should not be counted therefore a wicked custome among true Christians , that own the true God ( unless to put forth such curious questions about God as the Schoolmen do , viz. An deus potius non fuisse ? whether God could have chosen , whether he would have been God or no ? and such like fooleries ) to dispute about their God , and about his worship for fear it should grow more doubtful by discussing ; and howbeit considering the strong causes that commonly stiffen and harden the CCClergy in their Heresies , or the utmost of their ends in disputing , and some of those sorry effects that ensue , there is but little encouragement to that work of disputing with them , yet sith truth can likely be no looser by comming to the light nor , is diminisht , but displayed the more by how much it is discussed , I see no reason why it should be declined , and why Heteticks are not to be disputed withall : and here it cannot be amisse . If we consider , 1 the Causes , 2 the de●ign of Hereticks , 3 the Common effects of disputation with them . 1 Among the causes of the CCClergies Heresies may be reckoned , Amor sui , a conceit of themselves , a fancied perfection and purity in them more then others : Amor sui primum aedificavit civitatem diaboli saith St. Austin ) self love first set up the divels Kingdome , Even that great City BBBabylon that in three PPParts reigns over the Kings and nations of the earth : for though there were many superstitions grown in uppon the Christians before in the first three hundred years , yet the pompous Kingdome of Priests had no foundation whereupon to rise , so long as the Roman Empire remained Heathen , for then the very Bishops of the Church of Rome , whom the Devil hath since made his Vice-gerents in the world , were persecuted to the death by the devil himself , acting in the heathen Emperors in bloody butchery against Christians , yea the Ministers went under miserable martyrdome as well as others , and kept indifferent close to the truth , but when once the Dragon who fought against Michael and his Angels with open rage before , and acted against them under the very name of Christians , by his Angells the heathen Emperors , and massacred Millions of Christians when he saw the Emperor himself Constantine the Great turned Christian , and resolved to vindicate Christs cause , and rescue the Christians from their bloody sufferings , and finding that Michael and his Angels did now prevail against him , and his cruel Cutthroats , so that place must be no more found for them in heaven i. e. the high places of power in the Empire , and that he could execute his wrath now no longer by them against the saints , as Christians , a Christian being now come to the Crown , he had no other remedy now then to play his cards about another way and turn Christian also himself , that he might have the fairer advantage to crush the true Christians , that kept the commands of God , and the faith of Jesus , under the new nicknames of Hereticks , Schismaticks , &c. that would not obey the orders of the Church , insomuch that who but the devill ? who so busie as he now to have Christian Bishops favoured , cherished , advanced , honoured with all the honours that might be , next to that of the very Crown Imperial it self ? who so earnest as he to have all the world brought about by all means possible , and in all the hast to become Christians , and to become one holy Catholick Christian Church ? and so within a while ( Deo permittente non approbante ) having set forth the beast , or Roman Empire in another shape , and christned it with the name of Christendome , he scrambles up his Kingdome to himself again , makes over his power , seat and great authority to this beast , thus transformed , and this beast gives it all up to the Whore , he sets him up a Vicar General , and names him the Vicar of Christ , the head of the Church , Bishop of the Universal See , and such like , and by him , and the Ministers ( of Christ ) that issued from him , fills all the earth with abomination ; and reigns with as full force , though not so open face , but under a mask ( having all things in a kind of apish imitation of Christs kingdome ) to the suppressing of the truth , as in former daies he had done , and all this came to passe through this sin of self love in the Clergy , which as it grew great , so love to the truth grew smaller and smaller , till it came to be totally extinguisht , and the light of it wholly ecclipsed from the earth , for when the good man Constantine in his zeal , to the truth , gave them great Revenues , to which other princes added more still * according to the voice that was then heard in the aire , viz. hodie venenum infusum est ecclesiae so it sell out , for the Clergy fell to make much of themselves and things of the earth , to serve and seek their own interests , fell to wrangling and jangling about Primacy , Superiority , who should be universall Bishop , and such base , unworthy , abominable and self-pleasing practises , so that the truth took no more place in their hearts from thenceforth for ever . From thenceforth they began to grow in high esteem of themselves , and not only to fancy , but also to inveagle both Princes and people to fancy some perfection , holinesse , choicenesse , spiritualnesse and purity in them more then in all other men , and to distinguish themselves from the people by their garbs , and titles of Holy men of God , the Spiritualty , the Clergy , or Heritage of God , the Tribe of Levi , the lot of Gods own inheritance , the Priesthood , Ghostly fathers , Divines , shutting out the people from sharing with them in these terms of honour ( which belong onely to Gods people , whom of all the rest in the mean time , they villyfyed with the names of Hereticks ) as if God himself had no regard almost to any but themselves , and did behold all manner of men , but these Ministers , afar off , calling other princes , and lords ( for the Clergy men were become lords and princes too now , i. e. spiritual ones ) Temporall Princes , Lords Temporall , Secular men , and the people the Laity , Mechanicks , that must not meddle with the Scripture , so much as to look in it ( for so it was in old time ) not so much as to take upon them to be skilled in it , much lesse to speak out of it , or expound , or understand any otherwise then as these Divines say is the meaning of it ; yea under the raign of these latter Lords , the Protestant CClergy , though they have it in such plain English before their eyes , yet what a horrible thing was it , but a few years behind fancied by Featley ( and still is well nigh universally by the CClergy here in England , who appropriate all the wisdome about the Scripture to themselves , what a horrible thing I say , for the people to talk on , or have more to do with Scripture , then to take it as the Priesthood gives the sense of it : The Shoomaker goes not beyond his last , nor the Taylor beyond his measure ( quoth he ) only the trade ( and well might he so call it , for by that craft they have their wealth , as handicrafts men theirs by other crafts ) of expounding Scripture is a mystery , which every Artizan arrogateth to himself , the Physitian here will be prescribing receipts , the Lawyer will be demurring upon Dubia Evangelica , and every handicrafts man will be handling the pure word of God with impure and unwashed hands : this the pratling huswife , this the old dotard , this the wrangling Sophister , in a word this men of all profession , and men of no profession take upon them to have skill in : sic ille : & quid ni quaeso O Sacerdos ? what was the Scripture given for thee only to look in ? or wast thou set to keep people out from it under lock and key ? or may the spirit blow no where , but where thou listest ? must not all people search it ? or must they search and find no more truth in it then thou findest ? or must they not take it into their mouths , lest they defile it , as Bishop Wren thought , who prohibited the people to talk on it at their tables , for fear they should prophane it ? It should seem so by Dr. Featley who cryed down the people as Asses , Apron Levites , Russet Rabbies , the Clergy of Laicks &c. wondering that their dores , and posts and walls did not sweat , upon which any note was fixed to give notice of the exercises of men of any manual imployment : yea t is a thousand pitties , quoth he , that such owls and bats , and night birds ( as if the Clergy onely were the children of the day , and the people the children of the night , and darknesse ) should slutter in our Churches , and sile upon our fonts , Pulpits and Communion Tables . This was the cause of that great Schism of Corah , Dathan and Abiram Numb . 16. all the congregation is holy , But this is the cause of that schism of Pope , Prelate and Presbyter from the primitive freedome , that gifted Disciples , whether officers or no , had to speak to exhortation , edification & comfort , and that the congregation then had to admonish her Ministers upon occasion Col. 4.17 . viz. all the congregation are prophane , onely the Priesthood holy enough to draw neer within the rails , and to preach to the people out of the Pulpit , they are afraid ( I wot ) least the preaching of others there should sile and bewray it , what need else of causing the pulpit to be washed , as I have heard one of our Kentish Clergy men did his , after two tradesmen had preached there in his absence : they think they are men meliore luto , of some better mould , and taller by far in Gods affections then the People are ; This conceit makes them go apart , look upon themselves as sons of Anack , their Brethren as Grashoppers , shun commerce and society with them , as with publicans and sinners ; In detestation of whom , as not consecrated , they say Odi Profanum vulgus : and in a kind of proverbiall spel , procul hinc , procul este profani : and as dislike of others , so 2. Dislike of their own places is another cause of the Heresies of the Clergy : the foot will be the hand , or not of the body , the hand will be the head or else will be no body at all : the Servant regarding neither the Councell , nor the command , nor the Example of his Master , who came not to minister to , but to minister and gave in charge that there should be no dominion among his disdiples , and bade them that meant to be greatest to be last , and least , would needs be above his Master , and he that was sent greater then he that sent him , and by this he entred exceedingly into error : the Minister could not indure to be the foot , to have the whole body of the Church stand above himself , though sure , if he were , as a king is , Major singulis , yet he is Minor omnibus , and must stoop to the vote of the congregation : he could not bear it to be the hand onely to execute what the head directed in , but he must be the ●ead to give laws and ordinances of his own : Corah could not be content with his place , but sought the Priests Office , the CCClergy could not be contented with such Shepheardship as the Gospel had at first , but they must needs be made Priests after that more pompous way of the law ; nor to be Priests onely in sensu diviso from all the Saints , but they must seek the High Priests office too , and have Arch-Patriachs , Arch-Bishops , Lord Bishops &c. they could not brook it to be amonst the Saints as them that serve , but they must be as they that sit at meat , having all others to serve them : and in no mean manner neither have some of their Holinesses been served , when Kings and Emperours have stood bare before them , bare foot at their doo●s , ( as Henry the fourth Emperour , and his wife , and son did at Pope Adrians gate before they were admitted to the speech of him ) and not onely so , but held their stirrups also , and lay down to have their necks trod upon by him ( as Frederick Barbarossa did to Pope Gregory , saying non tibi sed Petro , and was answered again by the proud Prelate , et mihi et Petro ) in a word have held it honour enough to kiss his feet . In the state Absoloms ambition O that I were a Iudge ! was the cause of his rebellion , and the same kind of aspiring mind after no lesse then all power both in heaven and earth , Church and State too , made the Clergy , when time best served their ambitious turn , to rebell so abominably against all civil power , as not onely to exempt themselves fully from the jurisdiction of Temporal Princes , but most wickedly to subjugate all civil power to such depency on them and their Lord God the Pope , that when they have not been slaves to the Clergies Imperious will , and carnal concernments , he hath took upon him to act according to that power he claimes , most blasphemously saying , by me Kings raign , to force them to surrender their crownes , and sacrifice their lives too to his lust ( witnesse the case of King Iohn here in England ) and in scorn to kick off the crowns of Emperours with his feet , and in testimony of their taking all civill power as well as spiritual to themselves , Eugenius the second took on him within the Roman territory , the authority of creating Earls , Dukes , ●nd Knights , as the Exarchate had done before him , Helin p. 182. also Innocent the third held a councel in Rome in which it was enacted that the Pope should have the correction of all Christian Princes , and that no Emperour should be acknowledged till he had sworn obedience unto him Helin p. 184. upon the same ambitious account Pope Boniface the eight , by a general bull exempted the Clergy from all taxes , and subsidies to Temporal Princes , whereupon Edward the first , put the Clergy out of the protection of him , and his laws , by which cou●se the Popes bull left roaring here in England , He. G. p. 184. the same Boniface boasted one day in his pontifical attire with the keyes of the Kingdom of heaven in his hand , that all spiritual power was committed to him , and the next day in the Robes of an Emperour , with a naked sword born before him , that all civill power was committed to him also , ecce duo gladii hic : yea after the translation of the E●pire from France to Germany the Popes began to make open protestation that the Pontifical dignity was rather to give laws to the Emperours then to receive any from them Helin G. p. 188. and as in the state ambition , so in the Church the desire of a change from Membership to Mastership , from Servantship to Lordship , over the true Clergy , is the true cause of the Clergies Heresie and Schism , for being raised by earthly power and greatnesse , they forgot the salvation of souls , sanctity of life , and the commandements of God , propgation of Religion , charity toward men ; and to raise armes , to make warre against Christians , to invent new devises for getting money , to prophane sacred things for their own end , to enrich their kindred and children was their onely study , saith Helin out of G●iciardine Geog. p. 188. 3. Gloriae secularis aucupium , a desire to be somebody . Iudas , Thudas , Simon Magus are Instances of it , which Simon sin'd and erred so grossely out of his vain glorious desire to be lookt upon as some great one , as to offer to buy the gift of the holy spirit for money : of which sin and error of Simon , no men under heaven are more guilty then the CCClergy , for as they endeavour to to get gifts and endowments for the honour , & office of ministry in the Church by laying out money at Schooles , and purchasing to themselves degrees , as if the spirit must undoubtedly gift men for the Ministry that mean to bestow themselves that way , when once they are train'd up to be Masters of Arts in the university , so , to say nothing how they pay for their ordination , and actual admission into the function it self , when so fitted , though themselves call it Simony , or the sin of Simon to buy spiritual livings , ( these with them we see are the gifts of the holy spirit ) yet such is their unsatiable greedinesse after glory , and greatnesse in the world , that as hateful a sin as Simony seems to be among them , few of their spiritual gifts shall be lost for lack of buying , if a fee be lookt for , yea how few are dispens●t f●eely : and fairly from the spirit , and not rathet from the flesh i. e. some base , corrupt , rotten , fleshly respect and selfish end or other in the spiritual patrones ? how little or no spiritual preferment is there to bigger benefices , Bishopricks , or what ever ecclesiasticall dignity in any almost of the three Hierachies , but it s either bruitishly bought for money , or basely beg'd for some trencher service , or bestow'd on men , qua befriended , more then qua befitted with Gospel spirits , for Gospel service , or in some sinister way of legerdemane or other most paultrily purchased , but specially under the Papacy , where si nihil attuleris ibis Homere foras . Calvin saies vix cente simum quodque beneficium in papatu sine Simonia conferri &c. scarcely every hundredth benefice is bestowed at this day in the Papacy without Simony , as the old writers defined Simony , I do not say that they all buy them with ready mony , but shew me one of twenty that cometh to a benefice without some by commendation , some either kindred or alliance promoteth , and some the authority of their parents , some by doing of pleasures do get themselves favour . Finally , benefices are given to this end , not to provide for the Churches , but for them that receive them , therefore they call them benefices , by which words they do sufficiently declare , that they make no other account of them , but as the beneficial gifts of Princes , whereby they either get the favour of their souldiers , or reward their services , I omit how these rewards are bestowed upon Barbers , Cooks , Moil-keepers , and such dreggish men . And how judaical Courts do ring of no matters more , then about benefices : so that a man may say that they are nothing else but a prey cast afore dogs to hunt after . Is this tolerable even to be heard of , that they should be called Pastors , which have broken into possession of a Church as into a farm of their enemie ? that have have gotten it by brawling in the law ? that have bought it for money ? that have deserved it by filth services : which being children yet scantly able to speak , have received it as by inheritance from their uncles and kinsmen , and some bastards from their fathers ? But this is more monstrous , that one man , ( I will not say what manner of man , but truly such a one as cannot govern himself ) is set to govern six or seven Churches . A man may see in these dayes in Princes Courts , young men that have three Abbacies , two Bishopwricks , one Arch-bishoprick , but there be commonly Canons laden with with five , six or seven benefices , whereof they have no care at all , but in receiving the rev●nues , Inst. lib. 4. cap. 5. Sect. 6. etc. Thus they : yea the Popes studied nothing more saith , Helin Geog. p. 184. then to advance their Nephews , for by that name the Popes use to call their bastards : hence came the saying of Alexander the third viz. the laws forbid us to get children , and the devil hath given us Nephews in their stead : and though Luther add Calvin were themselves men of more moderate minds then to purchase preheminencies , titles , dignities to themselves , yet , though somewhat better then at Rome , it hath been too bad among the Successors of both in Clerical capacity as to that corrupt kind of climbing to the chiefest punctillioes of earthly eminency they can attain to : yea verily there 's very few of them but they are Papalis Ambitionis homines of Popely aspiring minds , seeking superiority , gaping after glory ( of this world , not that to come ) liking to be lookt upon with distinction , as men not like other men , as men of worth , when their worth lies more many times in what they have , then what they are , affecting to be applauded for their very Sermons , to be humb'd when they come to a period , in order to which ( I blush to think how they were wont to pause and look for 't in university pulpits , and sometimes too when to their greater shame they went without it ) and to be thankt for their great pains , when they have done : thus surfeiting upon self-conceit , and being drunk with affectation , they erre in affection to the rule of faith ( for how can ye believe ( saith Christ ) when ye receive honour one of another , and seek not that honour that cometh from God onely ? Iohn 5. this honour from beneath is the very element in which , and not in God , ( save as they are his creatures ) these Chamaeleons the CCClergy live , move , and have their being . The ar of popularity is the breath , by which the Heretick lives , vain glory the stirrop by which he mounts into such magnitude , and towers so high as to overtop not onely all other people , but all other Princes also of the earth , and to exalt himself above all that is worshipped and called God , he lackt to make himself a name like to the name of the great men that are on the earth , for the name of Minister or Servant , to so plain and disrespected a Master too , as the Master Christ was , whose name was cast out as evil , who made himself of no reputation , and would have all his Servants specially the Servants of all his Servants to be of the same mind and follow him through scorn , shame , suffering , and not be above him here , if they mean to reign with him hereafter , this was too mean a name for him to be known by , he must be Dominus Dominorum here , & KKKing it over the Kings of the earth : Paschalis the first caused the Priests of certain parishes at Rome , by reason of the neernesse of his person , their presence at his election , and to honour their Authority with a more venerable title , to be called Cardinals , they are now Mates for Kings , and numbred about 70. Helin Geog. p. 182. And howbeit Christ forbad his ministers the seeking of glory from men in this world , as not the time for them to come to the crown in , or to any thing but the cross ; yet his desire was Dicier hic est to be cryed up by the people as Supreme Moderator in all the matters of Christs Church , and civil State too , against the plain will of the old master in his word , and to be sought after as a new Master : Our Saviour saith of the Pharisees they loved the praises of men , and the present priesthood of the Protestant nations lay this to our charge , who are Christs Messengers and Servants to his Churches , whom they call Anabaptists , calumniating us so far as we are zealous , and follow on ( according to the many covenants , which both they and we have taken ) to reform fully by the word , as if we sought nothing but glory and to be seen of men , and meerly to make our selves Masters of a sect , and such like , which if we do we shall dearly answer for the sin of seeking , and serving our selves of Christs service at the last as well as they , but me thinks ( if blindnesse in this point had not happened to them ) they should see of themselves , that men cannot seek secular honour to themselves by siding with such a sect as ever was ( and ever will be whilest the world stands , such is its hatred to the truth ) every spoken against ; yea verily the name of these churches , that own and keep close to all the principles of Christs doctrine , and own the whole truth , for Christs sake , whose they are , both are , and yet will be cast out as evil by all other churches : yet grant these Churches should grow into more request , and favour among men ( as they do at sometimes more then some Act. 9.31 . ) yet their Messengers to the world must expect to be continually under clouds and to be counted deceivers , disturbers , trouble townes , turners of the world upside down , where ere they come , and to be in tumults , and dishonors , and evill reports among most men 2 Cor. 6.4.10 . yea wo un●o those Ministers that desire all men should speak well of them , t is a shrewd sign they are none of Christs , I think God hath set forth us Messengers last of all ( saith Paul of the Messengers to the Church of Corinth , when it was at rest 1 Cor. 4.9.13 . ) as men appointed to death , for we are made a spectacle to the world , and Angels and men , we are fools for Christs sake , we are weak , the Church themselves may be honoured , but we must be dispised , we hunger and thirst , and are naked , and are buffetted , and have no certain dwelling place , and labour working with our hands : being reviled we blesse , being persecuted we suffer it , being defamed we intreat , we are made the silth of the world , and are the offscouring of all 's things unto this day . So that I marvel men should think we seek to be cryed up among men ; yet thus are we censured by the Clergy ( and all that ever were forward for the truth , and sought to vindicate it in any part thereof , since it began to return from under those clouds , wherewith the Clergy hath overcast it , were so censured by the Common Councel of Clergy men , in their several climates ) as drawing disciples after us , that they might be called after our name , and not Christs , and so wee , and not he be glorified : The papists calumniated Luther with it , that he affected his disciples should be called Lutherans , but he denyed it : non ●ic o ●atue , non sic ; oro ut meum nomen taceatur , absit ut mihi faetido vermium succo accederet , ut filii Christi meo vilissimo nomine dicerentur ; in like manner say we to them , who are insatuated into the same faith concerning us , Non sit O sacerdos , non sic : Oramus non ut nostrum , sed ut Christi nomen nominetur , et ut quisquis nominat nomen Christi ab iniquitate ista abscedat 2 Tim. 2.19 . Imo absit a nobis gloriari , nisi in cruce Iesu Christi , per quem mundus nobis cru●ifixus est , & nos mundo Gal. 6.14 . novit dominus qui sui sunt : as for your selves O Priests non v●detis id manticae quod in tergo est . T is the praise of men that most of you seek , much more then the praise of God , this makes you so erre from the way of truth , this makes it more tedious to you , then t is ordinarily to other men , to be of that sect that is every where spoken against , and to see the Gospel , whose constant companions disgraces are , when it shines upon you : you are impatient of hearing so much ill as poor Christ in his disciples must , and so are for the most part capable but of little good . 4. Covetousness St paul cals it the root of all evil , al in the church al in the commonwealth growes out of the root of Papal , Prelatical , Presbyterian , ( I had almost said , and might say it , if they turn Tith-mongers too , whether per se or per alios ) Independent covetousnesse : Achans ●acriledge , Naboths Murder , Naamans Idolatry , Iudas's treason , Demetrius's persecution , Demas's apostacy ; even all the mischief of all these kinds , which haue been acted by the CCClergy throughout all christendome , who , as is shewed above , are in truth the most sacrilegious , cruel , false worshipping , Christ selling , truth treading , and Apostatical generation that are , from Apostolical purity , doth proceed from this rotten root of covetousnesse , which hath so corrupted the whole Masse of men called Ministers , for this 1260. years and upward , that vel duo vel nemo , few or none of them have ever preacht the Gospel , nor freely , and fully held forth the truth in all points , as it is in Jesus , from thenceforth to this very day . And indeed how can any other be expected , then corrupt doctrines from men of corrupt minds , which hold gold to be godlinesse , 1 Tim. 6.5 . and suppose liberal and bountiful maintenance , and rich Revenues to be the chief corner stone in their church work ? yet thus the Clergy by their wonted clamors for it not onely at Rome but at Westminster also seem to me to suppose ; yea the higest pitch that many of them seem to point at in reformation of religion is the restoring of impropriations , , and crushing the pride of the swelling Poppies or Ep●scopal clergy , and conferring that large allowance on the Presbyterial : you cry out that a base Ministry can never do good upon the people , and that the poverty of the Ministry is enough to bring them into contempt , and that the church is robbed of a painful Ministry , because there is not hony enough in the hives to feed a drone . But I say you have made your selves more base by far , and brought your selves into more contempt by your covetousnesse , and greedy gaping after riches , then ever yet you came into by poverty , and that one Drone will devoute more maintenance if men put into his mouth as long as he will open it , as many honest , self-denying ministers will make a good shift , not only to live , but to live to Christ on : they are not seducers that preach on cheaper terms , but the basest Ministers , if you count that basenesse , to be destitute of liberal maintenance , were ever yet the best Ministers of the Gospel , and the most inriching Ministers to the people : Christ foresaw clearly enough that a rich ministry would make but poor work in his Vineyard , therefore in his wisdome chose not many rich , nor mighty , nor noble , but the foolish , weak , base , abject , dispised ones in the eyes of the world , and earthen vessels to send his treasure by into the world 1 Cor. 1.26 27.28 . 2 Cor. 4.7 . yea those Ministers of Christ that were in afflictions , necessities , distresses , hunger and thirst , cold and nakednesse , poor and having nothing , that neither had , nor provided silver nor gold , nor brasse in their purses ( as Peter and Paul and the rest of the primitive preachers had not ) were the most pretious , plain , painful , profitable preachers of the Gospell that ever the earth bo●e , Matth. 10.9 . Act. 3 6. 1 Cor. 4.11 . 2 Cor. 6.4 . ad 11. 2 Cor. 11.23 . ad 28. and if mighty meanes were such a mighty means to make able Ministers of Christ , as is pretended by you Clergymen , that tell the State they may as well set Carpenters to build without tools , as send forth Ministars without liberal maintenance , I wonder there are no better Ministers at Rome , where they are maintained more like Monarchs then Ministers of Christ : but t is a true proverb , that their golden cups made them become such wooden Priests : Cum ecclesia peperit divitias filia devoravit matrem : you tell the Magistrates that they l discourage persons from medling therwith , if they allow not large maintenance to the Ministry , But I pray God they may never meddle more with the Ministry , that are incouraged to enter on it with respect to maintenance , such ever more maimed then maintained the Gospel : such which loved the gold of the altar dearer then the altar , and Corban more then conscience , and minded the wages more then the work , as ( exceptis excepiendis some few onely excepted ) the national Ministry ever did since donations of dignities from Temporal Princes fell upon them , were ever more murderers then Ministers of the Gospel , nil tam sanctum , the Heathen said but gold would expugne it . You would be rich , and so fall into temptation and a snare , and into many foolish and hurtful lusts , that drown men in destruction and perdition ; your love of money was the mother of all mischief , which while you coveted after , you were seduced from the faith : yea in these daies wherein you vow , and protest for the faith , as if you would fain follow on to find it fully , as t was once delivered to the Saints , you l neither find it further , nor follow it faster then it keeps pace with your outward enjoyments , so that we may say truely Quantum quisque sua nummorum servat in arcâ , tantum habet et fidei : so much money as you can get by it , so much faith , religion , reformation you l be for , and no more ; yea like Lawyers , that look more at the greatnesse of the fee , then the goodnesse of the cause , nay being feed better , leave their old Clients and turn to the other side , so do many of you in these daies ( wherein many run to and fro that knowledge may be increased ) turn to and fro that livings may still be established on you , from masse , to liturgy , and back again , and back again , and then to the directory , from all which , while you stood in the practise of them , there was no moving you by Scripture nor reason : but qui pecunia non movetur hunc dignum spectatu arbitramur . But you plead that the mouth of the Ox must not be muzzled that treadeth out the Corn , that t is the will of God that such as have sown in the Church spiritual things should reap their carnal things , that such as preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel . I answer t is most true there is a power , and liberty allowed , ●or such as serve the Church to eat and to drink , and to subsist ( in case they cannot subsist otherwise ) at the charges of the Church , when she sets them a part for her service , 1 Cor. 9. but it is most commendable , and thankworthy in the Ministry to serve the Church and preach the Gospel freely and as far as t is possible not to be burdensome in this kind at all , as namely in case they have any estates of their own , or can improve themselves in any such outward employment , labor or lawful calling wherby to obtain a competent livelyhood , and lay out themselves and the gifts , that Christ hath freely given them , in the service of Christ freely too , as men may do many times , if they be not idle , and loving their own ease more then to ease the church of Christ of unnec●ssary pressures in their purses . And thus the Apostle Paul , and the first Ministers of the Gospel did , and though they pleaded a power to live upon them , in case they could not live without them , that the Church might know it to be their duty freely to minister to their Ministers necessities , when they saw them willing freely to expose themselves to necessi●ies , for the truths sake , rather then seek superfluities to themselves , yet they did not use that power they had , much lesse abuse it too make a trade of it , but did rather suffer all things that they might make the Gospel as little chargeable as might me 1 Cor. 9.12.18 . yea they received wages sometimes when they went out to warfare , i. e. to preach the Gospel up and down , so as was utterly inconsistent with the totall maintaining of themselves , which while they abode more settledly at one place , they did attend to with their own hands : for its evident that to this end they might not hinder the Gospell from taking place in mens hearts by seeming too much to make a trade of it , they laboured , working with their own hands , as oft as they could conveniently , and their own hands ministred to their own necessities , and they had some honest outward occupation ( as also Christ himself had , and followed too , till he was wholly taken up in travel to preach the truth , therefore Mark. 6.3 . is not this the Carpenter ? ) wherein they wrought at all times , saving when they were actually imployed in some service of preaching to the world , writing , disputing , visiting &c. as is plain to him that consults these Scriptures , in the last of which , least any should think they did more then Ministers now need to do , Paul saies plainly they did not use their power , that they might be an ensample to others to follow them , so Act. 20.35 . and therefore howbeit he bids Timothy , that was a Minister of the Gospel , not entangle himself in the affairs of this life ( for t is not good indeed that Ministers , mind the world so much as to cumber themselves with over much business in it , that they may be more free , then other men to please Christ , who calls them in a more special sense , then all Christians , to be his souldiers , yet I believe he is far from prohibiting him in that speech from following any civil calling at all , for in the very verse before 2 Tim. 2.3.4 . he bids him endure hardnesse as a good Souldier of Iesus Christ : yea Ministers of all men should be patient of all things for the Gospel sake , that they hinder it not by their delicacy viz. of hard work sometimes , and hard fare too , if occasion be , and hunger and thirst , and cold and nakednesse , and extremities , and necessities , and distresses , rather then lie too heavy upon the flock of Christ , which is a lit●le flock , and those few mostly poor folks too in this world , though rich in faith , that may have more mind then ability to Minister to their Ministers , and many of them more need to be ministred to by their Ministers , if at any time they have abundance , then to have their houshold-stuff strein'd , and sold , ( as poor folks kettles , pots , pans , and platters are by the Priests , and their publican tith-gatherers ) to pay them . You tell us that the first Ministers were gifted from God to preach the Gospel ex tempore , and therefore well might they work , and yet easily preach the Gospel too , but the Ministers now must attain to it by much study , and hard pains , and therefore had need to be sequestred wholly from all earthly imployments , that they may give themselves wholly to that work of preaching , and to have such sufficiency of means allowed them , as may free them from all thoughts of other things , and furnish them to buy abundance of books , without which tooles you say in the trade of preaching , you cannot set up possibly to any good purpose : thus Featley p. 101. prophecy ( quoth he ) is an extraordinary gift of the holy spirit , preaching a special faculty acquired by many years study , and Mr. Evans , in his Sermon to the Lords my Lords ( quoth he ) we know you would have a learned Ministry , but it is impossible for learning ever to flourish without maintenance , you may as well set carpenters to build without tooles , as send forth Ministers without their parchments : we plead not my Lords , for our backs , and for our bellies , but for good books ; and furnisht brains : there are some that will seduce upon cheaper tearms , but there must be honest provision made that every Minister may have a good library , or el●e the Land is like to have but an ignorant Ministry , and a perishing people ; again my Lords , we know you would have a gracious people , to fear God , honour the King , and obey your honours ; but it is sufficiently known that a base Ministry can never do good upon the people : the generall pride of man is such , that poverty is enough to bring a man into contempt , &c. As if because the pride of man specially of great men ▪ is so great that the poor mean Ministers of Christ are subject to be despised by them , therefore they must have a kind of pompous Priesthood that may delight their daintines , and fit their vain fancies , and haughty humors : what the Lords of the earth would have I know not so well as themselves , I believe they would have a learned Ministry to lean to , and live at ease on , and a people to fear God as far as themselves do , among whom the fear of God hath been taught still after the precepts of the men called CCClergy ; and to honour the King , and obey their Honours : but this I know , and therefore t is but flattery ( not to say foolery ) to tickle them up with talk of their great zeal of the Gospel , as their fawning Chaplains do , that few or none of their Honours are effectually called to Christ , or have ever yet honoured him so far as to honour , own , and acknowledge his truth in that primitive purity , wherein t was at first given out , partly because the CCClergy claws them too much into odd conceits , and with untempred morter dawbs them into a belief of an Omnia bene in that easie gaudy gospel they sow as a pillow under their elbowes , and partly because not many of these mighty and nobles ones will stoop , when t is discovered to them , to that plainness , and simplicity that is in Christ 2 Cor. 11.3 . to that foolishness of mechanick preaching , that basenesse of baptizing , that streightway of self-denying , that needlesse work of Scripture searching with their own eyes , that weak nothing of Christs choosing , by which to confound , and bring to nought in the end , the prudence of the Scribes and wisemen of this world , whom they wonder after ; so the great King of Kings and Lord of Lords Christ Jesus was not over-seen , and yet he chose such base things , and sent forth such a poor base Ministry of illiterate mechanicks to preach his Gospel , at the first beginning of it too , which surely he would not have done if it were his own mind , that the contempt of his ministry , which by their poverty , illiteracy , and outward basenesse is apt to arise in the hearts of the proud , should be prevented by putting the outward pomp of much earthly riches , and that low literature of this foolishly wise world upon them ? Mean while I am not against a Ministers having learning , let a man have as much as he will on 't , so he use it as a telent to serve the truth with , when once he he hath found , and owned it : but against that necessity of outward learning to the Ministry of Christ , so as to say ( as the Priesthood doth ) that ordinarily a man cannot be a Minister of Christ without it : for verily the spirit , which onely makes a Minister , blows where it lists , and doth ( for ought I see ) bestow it self now , as of old it did , * more frequently upon poor Mechanicks and illiterate Artizans , then learned Scribes , and Schoolmen . Nor am I against a Ministers having a library , and looking into other books if he have a mind to it , and have money enough of his own to buy them , so be he do not lose himself therein ( as the CCClergy in all ages have done ) from his serious study , and sincere search of the plain Scripture it self : but I am far from desiring that poor people should be charged to fill , and furnish Ministers studies with books , and their brains with notions out of other Authors , that are no more to be heeded then themselves , further then they speak according to the word : nor shall I ever acknowledge such a necessity as you plead that men must needs busie their braines about abundance of other mens writings , or else cannot but be ignorant Ministers of the Gospel , sith the Scriptures themselves are of themselves ( if the CCClergy could once consider it , or one could possibly beat it into their braines ) profitable for all things , and able to make Ministers , and people wise enough to salvation , and to make a man of God perfect , and throughly furnisht unto all good works , but that they do not store their hearts ( as they should do ) with study of them onely , or at least mainly , as the primitive Ministers of the Gospel did , and the purest Ministers of it now do : 2 Tim. 3.14.15.16 . I wonder what our Clergy men would do to preach the Gospel if there were no other books extant but the very bible , they would surely either cease from being Ministers any more at all , or else make better Ministers then they are . I do not speak this to excite men to make such a bone fire of all books , but the bible , as Dr. Featley saies Iohn Matthias made p. 165. and yet ( by the Clergies leave ) I dare not say as Dr. Featly there saies , that t were better all those who ( in his sense ) are obstinate Sectaries ( for many such are pretious Saints ) were burnt at a stake , then that such a bone fire were made , for I know no absolute necessity to the salvation of men , of the being of any book in the world but the bible ; which as it was once alsufficient to make men wise to salvation , without looking into any other , and before there were many other besides it , so I know not ( sith we have them in such plainness as now we have ( maugre all the malice of the Pope and Clergy , who would once have made a bone fire of the Scriptures ) why it is not as alsufficient as heretofore , whilst yet there was no more Gospel Scripture then in self : but I speak it to excite the CCClergy ( for whom I have great sorrow of heart to see their miserable neglect of , & wretched ignorance in the Scriptures ) to give more attendance to the reading of them , as which are alsufficient , and onely necessary to a Minister , if there were no other books at all besides them ; & to fix them that have been erratical in the misty moon shine of mens inventions , under the sun shine of that unspeakably glorious Orb , I mean the Scripture , which many Clergy men in Christndom have been so far from being skild in , that we may well conceive , that they never so much as look into it at all . Sure Timothy and Titus , and Clement and the Ministry that was Coetaneons , and immediately succedaneous unto them , were more pretious Ministers then any are now adaies , and yet they never read Sainr Origen , nor Saint Austin , nor any of those millions of Rabbies , Schoolmen , and Scribes that have scribled since , having learn't no more Gospel then what the Scriptures learnt them , for I do not think they had such libraries of books as are now pleaded for , which Scripture we have as free accesse to as they then had ; and have time enough to read , and preach , and do somewhat else toward an honest livelihood too , as well as they , if we be not idle , and sith it s pleaded that their prophecying was an extraordinary gift , of the holy spirit , but preaching now is a special faculty attained not without many years study , and the constant course of it maintained by constant study : I say our prophecyings in the Church , and preachings to the world too , either are or ought to be all one with theirs , or else we are not as we should be : and as no man was a Minister then , but by a gift from above , so I know no man ( though Dr. Featly knew so many , that not one among an 100 of the Country Clergy , had any tollerable gift of extempore prayer ) that is a Minister of Christ , but the same way as they then were viz. by a gift in some fort to make out the mind of men to God in prayers , and the mind of God to men in preaching , whether to the Church in way of exhortarion , edification , and comfort ( for that was Prophecie 1 Cor. 14.1 . ) or to the world in publishing the glad tidings of Gods love to it , which is more properly preaching : I know no new way that Christ hath chosen to make Ministers in , since the primitive times , he did not make his Ministers then by gifts , and now by no gifts , nor yet by new gifts , he did not make Ministers then by gifts given , and now by gifts gotten , then from above , and now from beneath , then from heaven ; and now from the universities , then from meer knowledge of the Scriptures , and now from a muddy minglement , and mixt messe of science falsely so called , or skill in his Scriptures , and mens Scriptures together ; then by a simple spiritual Donation , and now by a simple fleshly Dronation in the Hive of such humane preparatives , as the Clergy conceive the spirit to be in a manner so concerned to blow upon , as if he could scarce have their free leave to breath besides them , but as he gave then , and powred out his spirit as he saw good , and more ordinarily upon men that were not learned , and wise with the wisdome of this world then on those that were , so he does now in these latter daies , not tying himself to men , whose education is at universities , more then to others , but rather more frequently filling men illiterate , as to such science , and secular Artizans then such as those . I confesse the CCClergies preaching is a faculty attained by many years study , and yet when they have been seven years , and oftentimes seven more , Apprentices in the Universities , they are fitter for a living then for preaching too * , but the preaching of the true Ministers is no such thing . Nor am I against any mans studying in order to the receiving of any good , or gift , from Christ , and his spirit , and in order to increase , and growth in any spiritual gift , that Christ hath freely bestowed upon them * , so their study be that of Timothy , who from a child was verst in the holy Scriptures , yea I wish to the Lord our men in order to the Ministry would meddle more there then they do , for school students are too great strangers to the study thereof , whilst they surfeit on Logical and Theological systems so much , as to suffer themselves implicitely to be seasoned besides the true sense of Scripture thereby : but I hope the study of the Scripture which may fully fit a man for good a improvement of himself in the Gospel , need not claim so much honourable maintenance , but that a man may maintain himself by some other calling , and treasure them up in his spirit too in good time , by his dayly commerce with them , so as out of that good treasury of his heart to bring forth good things without much a do , and such a do as Clergy men make about a text and sermon , dividing , devising , and inventing , more then freely venting the word from the richnesse of its dwelling in them , yea and so as to be like a good Scribe throughly instructed to the Kingdom of God , and bringing out of his treasury extempore upon all accasions , things new and old , and not be like a narrow mouthed bottle long in filling , and as long in flowing out again . Though therefore there is a power to take pay in some cases for the work of preaching , yet first its good that power be not used without necessity , but you O PPPriests , through covetuousnesse do much abuse that power , by using it to the utmost when yet you need not , yea though many of you have means enough of your own , and may live fully and preach freely too . 2. It must be upon the Church only , upon the brethren , on believers , and not upon the world , nor the Gentiles or unbelievers , that the Church-ministers mustly , for that will hinder the receipt of the Gospel very much among them , if they find it a chargeable Gospel before they own it , therefore those that preached to unbelievers and infidels to convert them to the faith , went forth at first freely , for the name sake of Christ , taking nothing of the Gentiles 2. Ep. Iohn 7.8 . But you O PPPriests receive pay from any men , all men of whom you any can way have it , as well infidels , or unbelievers , as such as are obedient to the faith , for in your national and parochial Churches , there are not half , nor a tenth part of them believers , by your own confession , yea your Ministry supposes them to be infidells as yet , why else do you preach to convert them to the faith , and cry out there is few of them have the knowledge of God , that they are in a damnable state , and such like ? or if you say these are not your Church , then it confirmes what I am saying , viz. that you expect pay from men , whether in church or out , whether Gentiles or Church-members , contrary to the primitive times , wherein the ministers of Christ were not maintained by the nations . 3. It must be every Minister upon the particular flock he Ministers too , and feeds , and not another flock , that are fed by other Pastors , and do not chuse , nor own them to be their Ministers at all , for though the Messengers , whose ministry lay mostly in preaching to the world , and assisting all the Churches where they came , might and did as occasion was , not otherwise , take wages of more Churches then one , and sometimes of some churches ( that might be richer and more free ) to do other Churches service , that might happily be neither so full , nor forward , as see 2 Cor. 11.8 . yet the Scripture speaks thus , that such should eat of the flock that feed it 1 Cor. 9. much lesse did the Pastor of one Church ever take pay of the Pastor of another in the primitive times . But you parish Priests claim pay often of other flocks then your own ; of the people of other parishes , that you never preach to , of the gathered Churches , and their Ministers too , as they happen to live , or to have or use houses or lands within such or such precincts , that never own you nor never will do , to be their Pastors . Yea so it falls out sometimes , when one man occupies several pieces of land in so many several parishes , that if not seven , yet four or five Priests take hold on the skirt of one poor sheep of Christ , that belongs to some seperated congregation or other , and ownes never a one of them all to be his Pastor , saying we must have so much of thee for such land that lyes in such a place ; and so you shall have several sheepheards at once at sharing time upon the back of one sheep , every one of them pretending to have some right or other to share him , when none of them all have any interest in him at all as his sheep , whilest he stands in relation to some other pastor : yea the true church may say of the Clergy constreining her to pay to them , and so to serve their false church and Ministry , as the spouse saith Cant. 1. they made me keeper of their vineyard , paymaster to their Priests , but my own vineyard have I not kept nor paid to my own pastors , for indeed how can they pay to these and them too ? 4. This is to be done gratis willingly and freely to , by the church , but not wickedly to be forced from them by a foraneous power , and by other weapons then those of the Churches warfare , which are not guns , prisons ; summons before Committees , strainings , trebble dammages , nor taxes from the civil Magistrates , in whose nations the churches live , for no minister of Christs flock did ever run to beg of the civil Magistrate to force his flock to feed him , and to flea his flock for him with his cutlash , if he could not constrain him by the consideration of his love , and service , and freenes , and forwardnesse of his own accord for their good , as freely again to consider the necessity of his condition , and that is no wise in the way of tithes neither . But the parish Priest will not be contented with what is freely given him by them that own him , nor them that own him not , and are none of his neither , but he will have it whether they will or no , and be his own carver too , and have the tith , which Christ never alloted him to take , or rather the sixt , if it be of corn , considering the Husbandmans charges of plowing , sowing , reaping , binding , and standing to all hazard ; for the Parson takes no paines , but to take the cleare tenth when its ready shockt to his hands , and is at no charges at all , save barely what it costs him to carry into his barn : and this he will have by fair meanes or foul , it matters not in what ravenous , hasty , trebble dammaging , forcible , shameful , scraping , ridiculous way , so he have it . Populus me sibilet at mihi plando &c. I blush to see their basenesse in this particular . 5. T is the Ministers duty to preach constanly , to be instant in season and out of season , to do his work as an Evangelist , and fulfil his ministry , and that frely , whether the Church do their work , their duty to him , yea or no : yea , if from the world he be rewarded with naught but stripes , mocks , fcosss , and all the base usage that may be , yea the spoiling of his goods , yet must he preach , if he be a messenger to them : and if his flock be so poor that they cannot , or so hard hearted that they will not minister to his necessities , yet necessity lyes on him , and wo to him if he preach not , and , if he be able , help not those that are poor among them too . But many of you Priests if ye have never so much meanes of your own beside , whereby you are called to relieve such poor people as you rather peel , if it be but two pence almost that you say is due from them , will have your pay , or else it may chance to cost them three times three pence , and a better penny before you have done with them , you know no more necessitie lying on you to feed them , then lies upon the people to feed you , though they be far poorer then your selves , and you better fed then they taught ; no pay no preach is your principle , so far at least that if one people give better pay , and one flock better milk then another , you are not onely under a liberty , but under a clear call also to leave one and cleave to the other . 6. T is the Gospel he is to preach too , or else he can claim nothing at all by any order of Christ , the Church is not bound to maintain men , though in the name of ministers , that preach down , that preach against the Gospel . But the Lord will maintain a poor people in these latter daies that shall maintain it to the faces of you PPPriesthood of the Nations , that you have been , and still are , till you repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sins , the most inveterate enemies the pure primitive Gospel hath , or ever had , since you reigned , to this very day , yet for all this you must be maintained , under the notion of the ministers of the Gospel , and that too in part by them that preach the Gospel freely , and a thousand fold more truely , purely , perfectly , and plainly then your selves do ; whether you do the work or no , yea though you work against the Gospel , yet you must have Gospel wages , thus run greedily after the error of Balaam for reward , though you have forsaken the right way , and are gone astray from the Gospel , and are found defying , and some of you cursing , rather then building up , and blessing the true Israel of God that do his will , yet following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor , you love , and look to have wages , and that of Israel too for this unrighteousnesse 2 Pet. 15. Iude 11. But the love of the wages of Balaam St. Iude and St. Peter too makes the character of false teachers , cursed speakers : Thus though you do not what is your duty to the people , which if you did Christs people at least ( and from none else are his ministers to require and expect maintenance , how far they may accept it is good to query ) would be free to theirs , yet you 'l force the people to do that which is more then their duty to you , and if men put not into your mouths , which are more open to call in tith then give out truth , you prepare war : and if any say unto you or your Assassinated Assigns , which you send for your tith , as some said of old to the Priests servants , when they came to take the Priests due , or rather more then their due out of the sacrifice , before they had offered , or done their part of service , let them do their duty first , and then take for them as much as thy soul desires , but we desire them to stay , and forbear to take the wages before they have done their work , or preacht the Gospel , which they pretend to take pay for , but for ought we find they preach against it , then these hasty hirelings , or the hirelings they hire to help them , like the rude servants of those wicked sons of Belial , the sons of Eli the Priests , who made themselves vile in this kind of fatting themselves , and many more ( whose sin was therefore very great before the Lord , insomuch that the name of a Priest flunk , and was odious unto the people , and men abhorred the offering of the Lord for their sakes ) make answer , nay but thou shalt give it me now , and if not I will take it by force , 1 Sam. 212. ad 30.7 . T is but a Ministration of meer necessaries , and meerly to necessities of Ministers that the Church is bound to Minister , even of them that do preach the Gospel , and not to Minister such superfluities as shall sink themselves , and hoise their Minister up to be a son of Anack , and themselves grashoppers , worth more then almost all the flock besides him , see Phil. 4.10.11.12.13 : ad 17. so that he shall think himself too good to lay his hands to any labour . But you the Priesthood of the Nations have given your selves such an universall Supersedeas , and disingagement from all manner of manual occupation , and secular callings , that t is as great a wonder to the world to see you about any business of baseness as Dr. Feat . deems that , wherein Peter , Paul , and Christ Iesus were exercised , who were ( as to their cutward profession ) a fisherman , a tentmaker , a carpenter , as t is to see the true Clergy of Laicks , whom you have Lorded it over , improving what God hath given them in the pulpit : and whereas Paul was of opinion that t would not hinder the Gospel , if the power to live on the Gospel were much used , you are not of this mind , but suppose it to be much hindred if it be not made use of to the very utmost , and live at least at the length of that Christian liberty : and whereas he deem'd it not a little honourable to the Gospel to keep it from being onerable , and without charge , you fear there is plus oner is quam honoris in 't to your selves , and therefore do even abhorr , detest and abominate to have it meddled with by Russet Rabbies Apron Levites , Mechanicks , * or to meddle at all your selves with Mechanick matters , yea coachmen , weavers , felt makers , and other base Mechanicks , quoth Dr. Feat . p. 120. exercise in publique Churches , to the great dishonour of God , profanation of his ordinances , and scandal of the reformed Churches , as if Christs , and Pauls , and Peters being tradesmen before , and some of them after , and even while they were actually in the Ministry , were an unworthy unsuitable thing , because the Priesthood , who are too proud to preach , and take other pains too for their livings , are pleased to say so : Yea such is the covetousnesse , and greedy mind of you the Priesthood of the Nations for the most part of you , that you are ever crying give , give , and howbeit some of you have too little , yet those that have most , have never enough , but are most eager after more , Ier 6.13 , from the least even to the greatest of you , every one is given to covetousnesse : from the thread bare Curate to the silken Cassock , from the Paritor to the Proctor , from the Parochial Bishop to the Diocesan , to the Provincial Archbishop , from the Deacons to the Archdeacons , Deans , and their Officials , Parsons , Vicars , Curates , and all spiritual persons hanging on that Hierarchy , from the Classis to the Aecumenical Councel ; from the Presbyter to the Pope , by whom he stands so ( unlesse he say the Magistrate made him a Minister ) from the Frier to the Prior of his Covent , to the Provincial , to the General of his order , from the Chorister to the Cardinal , from the meanest and most inferiour frie to the whole fraternity of the spiritualty , from the parish Clark and Sexton to the whole Priesthood , every one is given more or lesse to look to his own gain from his quarter , Yea Oh thou BBBabilon or TTTripartite Tower , and CCCity , that sittest upon many waters , tongues , Nations , Kinreds , Kings and people ( compare Ier. 51.13 . with Rev. 16.19 , 17.1.15.18.18 . per totum ) abundant in Treasures , thine end is come , and the measure of thy covetousnesse , thine eyes , and thine heart are not but for thy covetousnesse , and for to shed innocent blood with them that are greedy of gain , Prov. 1.13 . and for violence to do it . Thefore as thou entredst Christndom like a fox , & reign'dst like a lion , so wilt thou die at last like a dog , and be buried with the buriall of an asse , and yet for all that they shall not lament for thee ( except such as love , and lie in bed of adutltery with thee , and shall perish with thee Rev. 2.22 . ) saying alas alas , ah Lord , or ah his glory , but celebrate thy funerals with the dirge of Hallelujah : ( compare Ier. 22. with Rev. 18. per totum 19.1 . ad 8. Oh the infinite capacious gullet , & concavity of the CCClerical coffer ! how hath it swallowed down , and devoured for ages together ( and yet is not choakt , by cryes out more maintenance , more maintenance ) without streining , not onely the gnat of great and petty tithes ( by which much more then every tenth year ( happily every seventh they being at no charge but bare taking the tenth of corn ) the profits of all Christndom falls into the mouth of this Caterpillar ) but also the camel of free gifts , glebes , first fruits , oblations , and other obventions , Arch-deaconries , Deaneries , Prebendaries , Bishopricks , and Arch-bishopricks , and I know not how many kinds of spiritual livings , spiritual Lordships , and spiritual dignities , spiritual Patrimonies that are assigned for the maintenance of the CCClergie ? among whom its catch as catch can too , so that some get all ( the devil and all ) and some none , and yet some of those poor wretches that get least , get as little of God , as those that lose him altogether , and sell him for the mess of pottage , of some fat parsonage , or , as sometimes men do , whom I am ashamed to call Ministers ( unlesse I mean of the Pope ) for two or three fat parsonages , or special benefices together : t is a shame that for all the night is so far spent here in England , yet even here there is such endevouring for preferments still , such heaping up of more spiritual dignities , and Ecclesiastical emoluments then one , and pluralities of profitable places , ingrost by single persons , and such as would be singularly accounted of too , but never will be , by wise men , had in so little as single shame , whilst they harp so much after such double honour : the Pope and Arch-bishops in the Popish times were , till of late they grew more corrupt , complainers , and correcters of this greedy practise : Alexander the third , and 301 Bishops in a Lateran councel saies Mr. Den in a Sermon of his concerning Iohn the Bap. p. 64. concluded no Priests should have 2 benefices 1179. & 1231. Richard the costly Archbishop of Canterbury complained to the Pope that Priests in England held more livings then one : and though it hath been thought that many livings are a good step to a Bishoprick , yet I have read of one John Bland saith he , elected Archbishop of Canterbury , but refused by the Pope chiefly for holding two livings without dispensation 1233. and John Pecham Archbishop of Canterbury made a Canon that no Clergy man within his province should hold two livings 1304 , what a stinking shame is it therefore that to this day there is such inhauncing , ingrossing ? for my part I am well assuted that though it be not yet , yet long it will not be before stick and stone of the whole fabrick of the tripple BBBabel , or National Ministry will fall , and all their severall sorts of forced maintenances fall with them throughout Europe , but first here in England , for the tenth part of the City , i. e. the Clergy here falls first , yea as there have two woes to the Clergy fell on them here already , which have cast out the two corrupter sorts of these spiritual men , and all their spiritual maintenance and revenues , the first whereof fell upon the flat Popish false Ministry viz. Cardinals , Votaries , Friers , Abbots , Nuns and Abbeyes , and with them all their maintenance , and the foolish forms of their false ministrations viz. their golden legend and book of false miracles , bulls , indulgences , Masses , dirges , ●igintals , and other trumpery , the second upon the second part of the great City or Clergy viz , the Archbishops , Bishops , Chancellers , Comissaries , Dears , Deans and Chapters , Archdeacons and their Officials , and with them fell all their land , means , and maintenance , together with all their false manner of ministration viz. the Common-prayer , liturgy , book of ordination of Priests and Deacons , Homilies , and all the Crutches of that lame and lazy Clergy : so the third is now nigh to come upon the Presbyterian Clergy ( whether they see it or no ) for the face of the skies , and Scriptures do both look and lour alike upon them , with whom will fall that their still pleaded for maintenance by Tithes , Gleabs ; Parsonages , Vicarages , and all their Ecclesiastical Profits , and emoluments whatsoever , together with all their Church constitutions , Synodical directories and formes of worship and government , Classes , creeds , Catechisms , parochial posture : yea their Euphrates too is dayly drying up in the hot sunshine of the Gospel , though they for the most part , scorched with great heat , rather blaspheme the name of God that hath power of these plagues , then repent to give him glory , Rev. 16.9 . I say most certainly all these false national , parochial constitutions of Church and Ministry , Babi-baptism and maintenance must down in due time , but in the mean time though I wish its fall , yet I heartily wish that you Clergy were so charitable as to share the maintenance that 's yet alloted you as the National Ministry , a little more evenly among your selves , and not be so basely covetous as to sherk one another without reproof , and to suffer some to have two or three livings , or if but one , yet that worth two , happily three , perhaps four , five , six , or 700 per annum , as some livings are , and some as honest and painful , and worthy in their way , and godly in suo genere as the other , to be pincht within the income of as few scores , as the rest have 100ds by the year , some having but seven , some six , others but five , others four , three , two and some scarce a score of pounds to bring the year about with , and yet have not a farthing worth of help from the high flown favorites of their times : Dr. Featley had two livings while he was alive ( as it seems by himself in his Epistle to Mr. Downham to whom he complaines that both his pulpits were taken from him ) but though Episcopal Parasites did hold no more then they could get , yet we being six or seven years past the darknesse of those times , me thinks now the Clergy should cry out upon each other when they see any clambering beyond a competency , and consider the incompetency of their fellows voluntarily , whether the Parliament augment one out of another yea or no : but no bubble stands higher then the rest of the water it rides on for a while , but t will break within a while and be level'd to the residue of its element , in the mean time they have enough among them if they can be contented to enjoy it in equal portions , and not fall out about the shifting it : so much is yet left , though so much already is confiscated , that moderate minded men that mean not to erre from the faith by the love of money , more then of Christ , need not set up their Notes to the State to administer more . I le tell thee what thou hast had , and yet hast oh HHHireling SSShepheard , within this Island of Brittain , nay in England which is but the one half , the whole of which is but a poor patch of about a tenth part of the rest of Christndome , and this out of thy own mouth , I mean a man of thy own fraternity see Helin Geog. p. 464.465 . an Episcopal Clergy man vaunting of the greatnesse of thy maintetenance , which mouth of thine is still opening in some or other of the younger brothers of the present Presbytery to this day to call out for more . The Clergy saith he , meaning of England onely , was once of infinite riches as appeareth by the Bill preferred to King Henry the fi●t against the Temporall revenues of the Church : which were able to maintain 15. Earles , 1500 Knights , 6000 men of Arms , more then a 1000 Almes-houses , and the King also might clearly put up 20000 pounds : as they now are not so rich , so are they far more learned and of more sincere and Godly carriage , wherein they give place to no Clergy in the world , and for learning I dare say cannot be any where paralleld : neither are they so destitute of the externall gifts of fortune , but that they are the the richest of any Ministers of the reformed Churches : For besides 5439 Parochial benefices , being no impropriations , and besides the Vicarages , most of which exceed the competency beyond Seas , here are in England 26. Deaneries 60 Archdeaconries and 544 dignities , and Prebends all of which are places of a sur revenue . And as for the maintenance of Priests , Monks and Friars before th● reformation , Mr. Camden reckoneth 90 Colledges , besides those in the universities , 110 Hospitals , 3374. Chanteries , and free Chappels , and 645 Abbeys and Monasteries , more then half of which had above the yearly imcome of 200 pounds in old rents , in Many above 2000 and some 4000 almost . So studious were our Ancestors both in those times of blindnesse , and those of a clearer light , to encourage men to learning , and then reward it : thus far he concerning the wealth of the English Clergy : so that here was no lack yet I think , but of a law that some should not sink , and the rest swim in superfluity , and hold two livings ( as Democritus would weep saies Mr. Den , to hear some pluralists plead they do ) out of Charity : it may be out of it indeed , but t is in no charity to their brethren , but oh the bottomlesse pit of the Priestly purse beyond sea , where poor Peter reigns in his posterity , who had neither silver nor gold in his own person Act. 3.6 . of the gettings of that one great man the Pope , to say nothing of the endlessenesse of his Priests eagerness after money , there is no end ; nor yet weight , number , nor measure of his treasures : t would make your eyes dazzle to see it , and will make your ears tingle to hear what a deal of this ministerial maintenance is at Rome , and her immediate Territories , where there are no lesse then a million of Officers , mendicants and others maintain'd at other mens cost , themselves disbursing not a penny . The ordinary Temporal revenue of the Papacy ( saith Helin Geog. 192.193 . ) Boterus makes to be better then two millions of Crownes : the extraordinary and spiritual to be wonderful . Pius Quintus , who ruled six years onely , got from the Spanish Clergy fourteen Millions . Sixtus the sixth took from the Iesuites at one clap 20000 Crowns of yearly Revenue , because they were too rich for men that vowed poverty , and having sate but five years had coffered up five Millions , four of which his Successor Gregory the fourteenth spent in lesse then a year . Out of France they reap no lesse then a million of Crowns yearly , out of England , when it was the Popes Puteus inexhaustus , they extracted no lesse then 60000 Markes , which in our present money is 120000 pounds , being at that time more then the Kings certain Revenue . And this was in the time of Henry the third , before their Rapine was fully come to the height . Let other Countreys be rated accordingly . Next adde the moneys received from the particular pardons , for d●spensing with unlawful Marriages , the profits arising from pilgrimage , from greats mens deaths and funeralls , from the indulgencies granted unto Abbies , and Convents , in all which the Popes have a share , and it would passe a good Arithmetician to passe his Entrado . Here take the saying of Sixtus the fourth that a Pope could never want money while he could hold a pen in his hand , yet is their Treasury seldome full , for 1. the State they keep because of their height of honor above all Princes ; 2. the large allowance they give unto their Legates , Nuncios and other Ministers ; and 3. their greedy desires to enrich their Sons , or Kinsmen with the Churches Lands , or money ( with which humour Pope Sixtus the fift onely was never touched ) keep their coffers , exceeding low . Adde to this the exceeding Gorgeousnesse of the Papal vestments , and especially that of the tripple Crown , for when Clement the fist transferred his seat to Avignion , we read how with a fall from his horse he lost a Carbuncle ( with which his Crown was thick set ) worth 6000 Ducats at the least . Thus he . And saith Lord Napier on Rev. 9.21 . and note ( q ) thereof , It is more nor notorious what Abbies and Bishopricks from simple Princes , what lands and yearley Revenues from landed men , what money and goods from men of all estates hath been deceitfully stollen for indulgencies , pardons , remissions of sins , trigentals , soul masses , dirges de profundis , and other superstitions , stealing thereby not onely mens goods , but even their souls . If all this treasuring up of trash be not covetousnesse , excuse me if I know not what else to make of it : it would make me laugh ( as sorry as I am , for all such hereticizing and Schismatizing among the Ministers from primitive plainnesse , as hath been ) to see a Clergy man stand up and tell me now , that much maintenance is a necessary means , whereby to enable ministers of Christ to promote the Gospell , specially if they consider how this covetousnesse hath caused the CCClergy in all CCChristendome to erre so miserably from the truth thereof after the traditions of one another , that some of the great Ghostly Fathers that had the greatest maintenance , if that could have maintained them in , or had not rather bewitcht them from it , did not onely turn rank Hereticks but stark Atheists by their sin of covetousnesse , when maintenance increased so much upon them : if either lucre or learning could prevent the corruption , or cure the ignorance of the Ministry , the Popes had not proved such incarnate devills as the richest , and the learnedst of them did . Leo the tenth was indeed a great favourer of learning , and layer up of wealth , but so little favoured he of Religion , that he was oft times heard to say Quantas nobis divitias comparavit ista fabula Christi , a speech , saith Helin so blasphemous , that Lucian , Porphirie , or Iulian the Apostate could never match it : in his time began the reformation by Luther , and t was but high time for thee Lord to begin , who wilt make an end also in thine own time , for men , yea thy ministers ( for so they all call themselves ) have throw covetousnesse utterly erred , and universally made void thy law . But enough if not too much saith Helin ( and so say I ) of these Ghostly Fathers and of their sanctities . I will ( as he does p. 185 ) end with the Painter , who being blamed by a Cardinal for colouring the visages of Peter and Paul too red , reply'd that he painted them so , as blushing at the lives of those men , who stiled themselves their successors . I have done with the causes of his heresies and come to his design . 2 The design of the Heretick even this Heretick of Hereticks the CCClergy is to propagate his Error , and as his grounds are wicked , so are his manners in mannaging of them , intrat ut vulpes regnat utleo , he pretends verity , but intends onely victory , that he may reign over the kings , and people of the earth , and that they might all stoop to his commands , & directions ; and under pretence of verity at first , he did get victory at last over the whole world , so that ( Pape Oh strange ) the whole world wondered after him , and doted upon him as their Lord God , and became slaves in chains to his Priestly will ; yea as he loved to be supreme , and overcome , so the lord let him for a time , that he might manifest his own power the more in the overcomming him for ever in the end ; yea power was given him to make war ( by the beast that bears him , even all nations of Christendom which he overcame first ) against the Saints , and to overcome them also , and so to be filled with his own inventions : he gives out when any disputes against him , that his desire is to be satisfyed by disputing , and so perhaps he would , but t is with riches more then rightousnesse , with tith more then truth , for in truth he seemes if he must meet with such as charge him with error in his doctrine of baptism , tith , forced maintenance , forcing conscience , as if he would renounce his opinions , and practises in these points , if any can prove them to be corrupt , but seeks onely opportunities to spread his odd opinions , of what schism , and sacriledge , and robbing of God it is , if submission be not acted , and tithes be not offered to him , among the vulgar , among whom his Ghostly pretences produce a kind of aweful affrightment , and dread of doing any thing against what he saies ; being resolved before hand never to be convinced of the truth as t is in the word , for that overturns him in all his preferment projects , and plucks him up from all the profits of his present princely posture , which is such a right eye to him , that he hath not faith enough to believe that it can possibly be more profitable to him to part with ( though Christ himself till him tis ) then to preserve and perish with it . His disciples are for the most part not such as the noble Beraeans that would take nothing upon trust from the very Apostles mouths , but searched the Scripture dayly whether the things were so or no , not onely men , but honourable women too not a few , but rather meet idle , implicit , forefather faitht men , simple and weak women , who try nothing , but keep their Church , and believe as their Church believes , and as their good churchman saies , led away with diverse lusts and pleasures , leaning onely on their Priests understandings , pinning all their Religion upon their sleeves , adoring all that their Orthodox divines deliver at a venture , ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth as t is in the word , whose honest ignorant devotions he hath won to himself by his cunning artifice of pretended piety , voluntary humility , seeming zeal to the truth , long prayers , or rather multitudes of short prayers , and praises , Pater Nosters , Miserere Mei's , Magnificats , Te deums , Gloria Patri's , per Iesum Christum Dominum nostrums , and such like devoutries , and being once gained , are so carried on with the streme of corrupt custome , present fashion , foolish affection , that no reason in the world can reclaim them , he deterreth lay people as much as may be from reading , expounding , or too much prying into the Scripture , alledging unto them the perils they may incur by misinterpretations , he hath laid his foundations so firmly in the dark consciences of men & women by perswading them of his own infallibity , Ecclesiastical Authority , his Ius Divinum in the Government and guidance of the Church ( as here in Britain ) and even of his Temporal jurisdiction too ( as at Rome ) over both heaven and earth , hell and purgatory , of his power in the agony of mens souls , to forgive sin , that men and women are becharmed into beleif of him : he hath woven himself so far into their credulity , that all his sayings are received as oracles , all his doings as divine , all his traditions as truth it self , all his Administrations as Apostolical , all his doctrines as Orthodox , all his Arguments ( though confessed by himself to be weak ) as unanswerable , and all others Administrations , Actions , Answers , Arguments , though never so consentaneous , to the true sense of Scripture , valued at that price which he sets upon them ; as if the holy chaire of Papall determination ; Episcopal Convention , Synodical constitution , could not possibly be mistaken : yea the Scripture it self is but a nose of wax with him , of what shape soever the CCClergy casts it into , of no more authority then Aesops Fables with the Papists , if the Pope say the word , so as to disdate , digrade it , or put any part of it out of commission : of no other sense then the Bishops , and Synod seem to say is the sense on 't , with their good Protestants , so altogether Oraculous is the Pope among his , the Bishop among his , the Presbyter among his , and even all the three several CCClergies among their three several sorts of CCCreatures , that their different ipse dixits are ipso facto divine directory , and discharge enough too for these different doters on them insanire cum ratione to dote to and fro by Authority , so as to do , and undo , and do , and undo , and do by . In a word he is too bold to be born down , not so much from such things as make the righteous witnesses to truth as bold as Lions before God , and men , viz. the goodnesse of his cause , for that is stark naugh● , and rotten , nor the clearnes of his call either to his Clerical function , or any actions he goes about by vertue , and in persuance thereof , for t is clear enough that his orders , emission , commission ( as to the external etymology of them ) are more from the Pope , then Christ and the true Church ; nor any good answer of a good conscience , for either his conscience is so cloudy that he cannot , or so cowardly that he dares not , or so resolved that he will not see , or else so clear that he is condemned of himself when truth shines plainly upon his face : but rather from either his great interest in , or directive authority over the civil power , that hath long back as well as bellyed him , as in England , or his having it all in his own hands and dispose as at Rome , where ecce duo gladii both swords are in the Clergyes clutches so that he can quickly correct those that contradict him : he is too clamorous to be silenced , calling out with such a heavy noise , and divine ditty against the truth , and condemning it with such an outcry of Schism , Schism . Sedition blasphemy , Heresie , Heresie , before he hath half heard it , and so soon as ever its opening its mouths to speak , that all the parish pulpits in a whole Countrey ( and now and then their steeples ) ring out in such combustion , to the tune of Great is Diana of the Ephesians Act. 19 28.34 . that truth hath no way wherby to silence him , but to be silent her self , for when she begins to declare , he with his Heresie , Heresie soon stops men ears : he is too arrogant to be convinced , he hath controuled whole nations , cut of the spirit of Princes , bin terrible to the kings of the Earth , and devinced invincible Emperors in his time , therefore may well scorn to be convinced ; abominate , detest , disdain to be directed by Russet Rabbies , Apron Levites , Ministerian Mechanicks , illiterate Artizans , illuminated Tradesmen , Christ the Carpenter , Peter the Fisherman , Paul the Tentmaker , Aquilla , and his wife Priscilla , from which kind of poor folks and babes , to whom it seems good in gods fight to preach the plain Gospel , and reveal by his word and spirit what he hides from wise men , when they will not see , this prudent PPPriesthood , if he were not proud , might learn more truth and Gospel purity , then ever was taught him by his Grand-father the Pope , or any of those Clerical Councells , or Ghostly fathers , which he consults more with then with Christ and Scriptures . The Reason of all his obstinacy against tradesmens teachings is this , he knows that his trade of teaching for hire , and divining for money Must fall , if tradesmen begin once to turn divines and to teach truth for nothing , ye know that by this craft ( quoth he Act. 19.25 . &c. ) we have our wealth , moreover ye see and hear &c. he is well aware and so are we that if he lose the lives of persecution for conscience , and sprinkling of infants , Iachin & Boaz the two main pillars , & grand Supporters of his kingdom , his Temple will quickly rend in to more pieces then 3 PPPs from the top to the very bottom , and all his matchlesse magnitude , and numberlesse priestly Prerogatives drop directly to the ground , viz. his Lieutenantship to the prince of this World , his Lordship over the heritage , his headship over the Church , his dominion over the faith , his title to the tenth of every mans estate , his merchandize of slaves bodies , and souls of men , his leave to trample the holy city , and slay at pleasure the truth tellers that torment him , his rich revenues , dignity , glory , power , seat and great Authority , together with all the priviledges , profits , liberties , immunities , thereunto belonging . All this his royalty must fail if he give ground but a little , and would have failed ere this time , If he had a face could blush , at his own abominable blindnesse , or ingenuity to confesse himself hurt , or own the plain truth while his lungs will serve him in reply , or Amor sui constrain him to cry heresie against the truth : therefore this Diotrêphes , that loves to have the preheminence over all for ever , because he hath had it for a while , receiveth not truth , but prates against it in the pulpit , and elsewhere with malicious words , and though he contradict himself ever and anon , in his own Sermons , and discourses , yet if he say any thing at all , he thinks it much , when wisemen , weighing it , find it little to the purpose : Tertullian thus describes Hermogenes , Loquacitatem facundiam existimaret , Impudentiam constantiam deputaret &c. so he , when he bumbasts the pulpit , and slashes the Saint Schismaticks ( in their absence ) before his people , supposes he hath spoken with no small grace , when t is for want of grace that he did it , and that when he is most audacious against all reformation , as at Rome , and even that he hath sometimes sworn himself , and others to , as here in England , when he finds it more crosse to his credit then he thought of when he undertook for t , he counts them fickle unconstant , that change their minds , and mend their manners , and himself only stable and constant to the CCChristian Religion . Hence it is that the effects of Disputation with him have been not onely f●ustrate but dangerous , 3 dangerous I say to him no otherwise then as it overturned his Kingdome , that the truth of Christ might take place , but to them that disputed with him in this respect , as it hath been no lesse then their pretious lives were worth once to oppose , or open their mouths against him , witnes Wickliff , Hus , Ierome of Prague , and all the executions done in Queen Maries daies upon such as durst dispute against the Pope , or meddle against the mass , and those done in Queen Elizabeths upon Barrow , Greenwood and Penry , who were hang'd by Episcopal malice for professing against them , and the Common-prayer , which now well nigh all England hath renounc't as a corruption , and what should have been done upon such as disputed against , or depraved the Presbyterian directory , is well known , for that Clergy hath shew'd themselves so much in their Fathers colours , that ere long all England will renounce both it , and them : and in this respect it hath been also frustrate as to peoples conviction , for truths witnesses to dispute never so clearly against him , for as much as he hath still stopt their mouths with the stake , prison , or gallows , and kept his own wide open against them in the pulpit , when he hath secured them from all capacity of storming him there : for The common sort are apt to think those have the victory that live to speast last : and that their CClergies cause is never wrackt by the cause of Christ as long as one is left alive that can speak a word in that against the other : And by how much error takes with our corrupt nature more then truth , by so much there is more danger of its spreading , where the Roots i. e. the self love , vain glory , ambition , covetousnesse , pride , Lordlines universality and cruelty of the CCClergy , who are plants that our heavenly father never planted , Stocks from whom stemes out a stench , from whom abomination branches it self out to the corrupting therof in al quarters of the Earth , Rev. 11.18.17 ▪ 5.19.2 . are not plucked up , and rooted out : for from the Priest and the Prophet profanness , & heresie hath gone out into all the world , and spread it self like a leprosie , or some raging canker ; and for the most part such is the resolvednesse of the CCClergy to bind the people still to a blind obedience to their blind guidance of them beside the word ; that Disputations with them if not carefully , I mean clearly , and also coolly proceeded in with love to their persons , and almost without zeal against their evils ( which yet we must not abate them an ace of for all their anger , pacem cum hominibus cum vitiis bellum ) they Raise more evil spirits of wrath and divellishnesse in them then we can lay , because they see them raise more good spirits of doubts and earnest enquiries after truth in the people , who before were wont to take their ware on trust without trial , then then they can lay again while they live by all the shifts and subtleties they can devise ; for when once people are resolved to believe things to be heresie by hearsay no more , but to fancy them according as they find them in the word , and to see into the plainness of speech that is in the Scripture with their own eyes , they see so much disproportion between the national Church wayes , and those of the primitive Churches of the Gospel , that they commonly resolve not to see at all adventures through the unclear eyes of CCClergy men any more : This makes them fret and fume , and fain , and fiddle hither and thither , which way to fasten their Heretical opinions further , if it be possible , on them in whom they they stick , and into whose hearts they have eaten fowl , healthless holes already , and to drive them deeper even with hammer and nailes , if they can tell how , or else to cleave whole Countries asunder with beetle and wedges : Heresie is said by the Apostle to fret like a canker so that it is not the clearness , nor yet the coolness , nor yet the heat of a disputation can correct it in some mens hearts ; the tongue may heal any poisoned wound with licking of it sooner then that which the Heretick , the Pope and the Priesthood hath made , so deeply hath he found his heresies in the dark cells of some mens implicit consciences , Athanasius his disputation with Arrius , and Austins with Manickaeus are sufficient Instances . Indeed it is not possible to expect any good fruit from those former grounds , as to the CCClergie themselves , and such of their CCCreatures , as stand bent to believe all they say , and never doubt it , though otherwise much good may come to others , that are inquisitive , by disputation with them , or that he which is possessed with self love , and hunts so greedily after glory or gain as the CCClergie dots , should be perswaded to hearken to any reason , which contradicts his principles , or to disclaim that waie which must advance his design . What is the result of this discourse , to forbid all disputation with HHHim ? no by no means , it is necessary to stop the clamors of the adversarie to the truth , who will cry out victoria , if his challenge be not answered and make our s●leu●e be a confession of the truth on his side ▪ if he be not stoutly encountred with . Saint Austin who was in his time called Malleus hereticorum , of whom it is said that he never went so willingly to a feast as to a conference when Pascentins the Arrian bragd that he had worsted him in his dispute , and those believed it , which desired it , yet gave not out from disputing , but was onely careful to set down his disputations in writing for the future , that the truth might appear vindicated from those false reports , with which commonly it is blasted , either by word , or else by some such true counterfeit Accounts in print , as that which is at this day extant of the disputation held at Ashford . A Disputation orderly carried , soberly proceeded with , without heats , and distempered passions , not suffered to go out of its due bounds nor to follow every new sent , that is taken up by the way , nor to degenerate into quarrellings , and hasty fals chargings of the Anabaptists as this , and that , & they know not what , without proving them such , or disproving their doctrines ( as , if others do not , I do know more then one place where , and where more then once too , it hath been so ) will contribute much to the clearing of truth the begetting of doubts ( in them that yet never doubted ) but blindly believed the contrary , The removing of doubts in them that are already in doubts about it , and putting it out of all doubt to them all in the end , that all is not so well yet as it ought to be , with the very reforming Clergy , and that their parochial posture is popish , and their constitution , ordination , administrations , baptism and the supper , is all disorderly and out of joint , to the confirming of the strong , that stand fast in the true faith , the recovery of the laps't world that hath departed from the faith , Gospel , Baptism , Church order , which was once delivered to the Saints , and been seduced from Christ by the Scholastical incroachments of the CCClergy : and ( as it may chance in time , if the civil powers that have preferred them , would come once to favour the truth ) the convincing ●he SSSeducer : it is rare so to mannage one among an unskilful multitude where the auditors take themselves no lesse engaged then their champions , and will be ready , on all hands too much , but an 100 fold more ( for ought I find ) among the parochial party then the other , disorderly to break the lists which hath made so many able Scholars not in mans onely , but in Christs School also , almost averse from undertaking it ; but unless their be sufficient caution against such exorvitatances , as jangling with bells to drownd all audience of truth , and counter speeches of non-sense , rather then nothing to interrupt him that is about to speak the truth , and noise of shouting , if it were possible , to shame the truth , and such like geer as I have met with in my daies , better be no disputation at all , nor preaching of truth among such , it being ( if not a giving of that which is holy to dogs , and casting of pearles before swine , which will turn again and rent you , yet ) at least impossible any thing should come of it that good is ( and yet even that shall be no hurt to the Ministers of Christ , that are approved in tumults , yet cannot help it ) but blasphemy to the truth , stumbling to the weak parishioners , that stumble enough already poor souls ( the Lord help them ) to see their preachers violently oppose preaching , and proving the truth out of the Scriptures ; a kind of shamefull Glory to the adversaries of the truth , the PPPriesthood from some , a glorious shame to the undertakers for it . There is therefore a better way for the true Pastors of the true Churches , and specially the Churches messengers to the world , in which to oppose the approach of heresies , which the parish Pastors make mickle use of to oppose the truth by under the names of Anabaptism , at least in their Respective flocks * and that is by preaching . To argue substantially against them , to convince them soundly , is the best in the pulpit , if they can freely get in , a place wherein one might have hid ones self for a month together or more , and sometimes a year from some parish Priests , non-resident Parsons , divinity Doctors , but specially the lazy Lord Bishops not very long since , but now , to keep out the Anabaptists , more frequented by some Priests then else it would be , a place , which is secured much , and yet not alwayes neither when plain truth tellers are in it , from those incursions to which disputations are subject . It is worth observation that neither Transubstantion , nor consubstantion have so much as appeared in these days , wherin so many old Heresies , as infant sprinkling for one , which as , a mad bul having its deaths blow on the forehead , struggles more then ever , are in a sort revived , and stickled for , and plyed , with new and fresh assaults , and unheard of arguments , for t was pleaded for but as a tradition mostly in times above us , as well as new ones broached . And the reason is because all Ministers in these parts good and bad , true , & false even the Priests themselves in their Sermons provided for the sacrament have every where oppugned them , as having indeed no cleer colour in them of either Scripture , common sense or reason , as neither hath infant sprinkling , if the National Ministers would once wisely consider it . The learned Hooker observes that in Poland so many Arrians sprung up because the Nicente faith was neglected there , and had we Baptists in our Ministry of old been careful to preach for the true way of baptizing believers onely , when the baptism of infants first began to come up , and creep upon superstitious grounds into the Church , It would certainly have hindred the propagation of that reasonlesse Rantism , and freed the Churches , that now return to the onely true baptism again , which they let go , from that simple censure of Anabaptism , which now they passe under from men that take rantism to be baptism : at least our flocks in those daies , that followed the truth , had been so well provided , as that they would not so easily have departed ( as they did ) from that plain way of the word in point of baptism : Felix quem faciunt aliena pericula cautum . The Pastors are appointed by God for watchmen , their office is to to see dangers , and to give warning ; they are the dogs of the flock , such as the wolf would have ●●lent , w●e be to them if they barke not : Na●ianzen was such an one , ( as some say ) his mother dreamed that she had brought forth a white whely , and such ( they say , for I knew him not ) he proved that the 〈◊〉 heretick durst not enter but he spied him , nor staie but he hunted him out : if he did thus , not mistaking heresie , and instead thereof hunting out truth ( as the Priests do , but I hope he did not ) t was the better for the Churches , he was the Pastor of : but we be to the Church the CCCatholick aecumenical visible Church cal'd CCChristndome , whose faithful Pastors are gone from the truth , and turned wolves themselves , that weary the very truth it self : Saint Paul tells those of Ephesus , Act. 22.29 ▪ I know that after my departure many grievous wolves shall enter into the flock , and as he said so verily it it came to passe , for the three sorts of National Church PPPastors , Pope , Prelate , Presbyter are in sheeps clothing , but indeed ravening wolves , that have devoured the truest flock of sheep that Christ hath upon this earth : they are the dogs of the flock indeed , but many of them dumb dogs that cannot bark , and others barking at the sheep themselves , and others biting them with their teeth because they put not into their mouths , and tearing them , though they never teach them : yea they are greedy dogs that never have enough , looking each to his gain from his quarter : The rest of this discourse shall be partly Paraenetical , to the people , partly Apologetical to the Priests , and so end . As to the Pa●aenetical part , It concerns the advice of the Pastors of the true Churches to their flocks . and all people , that they would endeavour to preserve and recover themselves from all infection of Heresie and Schism from the primitive times , by which the whole world is gone astray , and in order thereunto they commend unto them this serious exhortation . 1. To endeavour to be thoroughly inst●cted in the principles of Christian Religion , to be houses with foundation , that every wind of doctrine may not shake them : Qui huc et illuc fluctuat , quovis momentur impellitur . He that is not settled upon the true foundation , yea and that house , or Church that is not built upon a right foundation , even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the primitive Prophets and Apostles , heard and obeyed , is driven to and fro to this , and to that , and back again almost with every storm that rises , and hath a time wherein t will fall , and the fall thereof will be very great Matth. 7.21 . ad . 28. Ephes. 2.20.21.21 . we have experience plain enough of this in the Nationall , and PPParish Churches , and people , who because they are houses without foundation , or else constituted upon nothing but the sandy foundations of mens inventions , traditions , doctrines , and the prudentiall precepts of the PPPriesthood , and not upon the primitive doctrines of the Prophets and Apostles , neither were ever perfectly , but at best in part onely instructed in the A B C , and first principles , or beginning word and doctrines of Christ ( as they ly plainly before us in sixt of the Heb. 1.2 . ) because I say they never knew nor owned all these , nor laid them as the foundation of their building , and Church posture , but are brought into that mongrel Church way they are in , by principles of birth , breeding , abode in such a Town , custome , fashion , lawes of men , Statutes , Spiritual orders , Popes , Bishops , Synods , Canons , implicit faith , more then by cleer knowledge of , acquaintance with , conversion by the light of Scripture , therefore they are wavering like a wave of the Sea , tossed to and fro with every wind , and turn of tide , and driven to any thing that chances to please the Princes , or that civil power best , under which they happen to be bred and born : yea as t was of old in Babylon , where Nebuchadnezzer reigned , all the Lords , People , Tongues , and Nations within his jurisdiction ( saving two or three honest souls who saw Gods will and served him according to it ) fell down straight at his command , and threatnings of the furnace if they did not , so hath it been in BBBabylon the new , under the three PPPriesthoods , wherever they have born sway , all the people ( exceptis excipiendis , a very few that keep their standing in every turn , being built upon the rock Christ , and his doctrine ) fall down , and do as they and the Princes that have committed adultery with them have enjoined , yea they have reel'd to and fro like a drunkard , being drunk with the whores wine , and fell forwards and backwards , and forwards and backwards , and forwards again in the lump , and been by turns of what religion , or way soever hath pleased the powers to impose under penalty , Papists , Protestants , Papists , Protestants , Popish , Presbyterian , or as it happens . 2 To love the truth and imbrace it , those that yet scorn it , and let their affections be ravished in the imbracings of it , such as have or shall yet at any time imbrace it ; so shall they be stable in it , and not soon moved from the truth . 3. To take heed of itching ears such as love to be gently toucht , but not plainly talkt to , that say to the S●ers see not , prophecy to us smooth things , that will not endure sound doctrine , nor any troublesome truth , that say of the words of Christ , the doctrine of his baptism , that calls for self-denyal , the practise of which exposes to the crosse , censure , scorn , shame , suffering , losse of credit , custome , offence of friends , fathers , mothers , husbands , wives , &c. which whoever loves above Christ , is not worthy of him , these are hard sayings who can bear them : take heed I say of such ears as love to hear some truth , but not all , that stand open gladly to any thing , but the losse of Herodias , the darling lust , what ever t is , whether the lust of the flesh , the lust of the eye , or the pride of life , God in his Iust Iudgement suf●ers such to fall . Learn to be doers of the word not bearers onely , and doers of all that you know , and not some things onely , as some do ; and patient both hearers , and doers of what God , and not what man saies : Temptation hardly prevails against that soul that is built upon the practise of Gods commandements ; but ( as is shewed above and exemplifyed in the parish people that are so built and no otherwise , and whose fear toward God is taught after the precepts of men ) the soul that is built on the practise of mens commandements in his religion , faith , worship , is easily prevailed with to be of any Religion the State pleases , as well a false as a true , as well Popish , as Episcopall or Presbyteriall . 4. To beware of the ordinary converse , and needlesse society of these Schismatical Seducers , the PPPriests , that have drawn the whole world into a deep dotage after themselves , and desperate departure from the plain doctrine of the primitive Churches , and Apostles , not to frequent groundlessely their popish parochial , Antichristian Assemblies , that say they are Jewes i. e. the Churches of Christ , and are not , but do ly , and are the Synagogue of Satan : and if any of the disciples or others , think themselves strong enough to encounter with them , or if they be so indeed , yet to take heed of being foiled , and spoiled throw their philosophy , and vain deceit , after the rudiments of the world , and not after Christ 2 Col. 8. and however of offending weak ones by their example , The Arguments of some , nay of all these HHHierarchian Hereticks have not prevailed half so much to the perverting of the saith of so many millions of men and women , as in all ages of their reign have been perverted from the truth , as it is in Jesus , as the examples of some ( shall I say ) nay of wellny all the Great ones in all nations , the gentry , the mighty , the wise , the noble , not many of which can submit to own the Carpenters son in the homely ordinances , mean waies , foolish and base things he hath chosen 1 Cor. 1. yea the Kings of the earth that falling into folly , and committing fornication with this cunning women the CCClergy , were besotted to sacrifice all their Crowns , and the wealth , and power and strength of their whole kingdomes to her will and to set up her waies , Rev. 17.2.17 . Who perhaps onely for noveltie or curiosity at first , but at last after some few ages and generations , out of principles of foolish custome , and pretended antiquity have been present themselves , and not by their own example onely , but extremity of Lawes , and Statutes , which the Saints onely in each age have smarted for the breach of , enforced others to be present at their will worships , superstitious services , extravagant dispensations , and erroneous exercises : and yet the bare example of great ones in a false faith , without other enforcement , is inforcement , great enough amongst Parochiallists , and the carnal commonalty , who commonly live and believe much more by example then sound reason ; the faith of he Rulers right or wrong is usually the rule of their faith , and Rex sum such a convincing reason with them , as seldome receives other reply then nil ultra quaero plebeius . 5. Not to be too rash to believe every Spirit : nor to receive any more implicitly the spirit of the spiritualty the PPPriesthood , no though it come ●n never so ghostly shapes , and gorgeous pretences of piety , humility , zeal , prayers , tears , &c. for she is a mystery , and this is the very mystery of the Whores iniquity that she hides all her guile with a godly garb . In nomine domine incipit omne malum , saith the old Proverb , and I wish that in homine domini occidat omne malum , may be a new one , if it prove a true one , i. e. that in thy fall O man of God , there may be an end of all mischief : yet surely a worse mischief to the true Church sharp and , short , will arise out of thy ashes yet before the end ; false prophets mu●● come in the name of the Lord as well as true ones . How gloriously did Balaam profess . As Austin saith of Pelagius , whose doctrine he counted devillish , that his life was like a Saints , so I say the Sancti Sanctorum of all Christendome in pretence , have been in doctrine the veryest devils : Alexander of ●ales writes ( say some ) of Bonaventure that Adam did not sin in him , and yet of all the Papists none le●t more blasphemy behind him : the Crocodile weeps till he hath got his prey , the Priesthood won the world to it self with the name of Jesus Christ our Lord , and then set up the trade of being Lords , and Lawgivers themselves , and rooted out his from off the earth . 6. having once found out and fallen into fellowship with the true Church , that is rightly constituted upon the true foundation of the Prophets and Apostles , or principles of the doctrine of Christ , to be stedfast and unmoveable in the way of truth , not suffering themselves to be swayed aside in any wise , by any deep devises , or perverse pretences Satan of whatsoever , and in order to their standing to avoid a weak and querrulous conscience , misliking , finding fault , complaining , taking offence at every thing , where there is no cause , streining at a gnat , giving over the company of the flock for every ●ub , forsaking the assembling of themselves together as the manner of some is , seperating from the Congregation , not so much for a ceremony as through a crooked and carnal conceit that t is but a meer ceremony to assemble and meet , or meddle with any outward ordinances at all , a matter in force onely for that small moment of the primitive age of the Gospel , and now of no moment to us , weak worships , low things , carnal ordinances , unprofitable dispensations ; empty elements , bodily exercises , beggerly rudiments &c. like bruit beasts depraving the precious precepts of Christ even those holy matters of his which they understand not the weight and worth of : these and such like have made such as of old Jude speaks of , and we see so doing at this very day , to depart , and seperate themselves from Saintship to sensuality , from Church-fellowship in the faith to fellowship in filthynesse : thus the Seeker seeks to subvert himself and others , and all that holy law of Christs own giving as foolishnesse , to overturn all that is of Christ , whilest Christ is overturning all that is of man , he scruples every thing , till he is satisfyed to own just nothing , as if because there is some waies of error , therefore there can be no way of truth : he is weak in the faith , believing nothing to be good till he believes every thing to be so , and nothing to be bad or naught at all . And wheresoever his weaknesse is at first , it thrives into wickednesse at last , so that how ere he seems modest against the truth a while , yet after there will be ra●● censures , arrogant and bold speeches , and Iudgements , condemning , or at least contemning both of good persons and holy things . Thus this man runs up to ranting by little and little , circumcising away all flesh ( for so he now stiles the waies of the word and spirit ) crucifying all that flesh of Christ , till he becomes welnigh as spiritual as the devil . 7 To endeavour after the true temper of a son of the Church , which consists especially in these two qualifications . 1 Humility or self denial . 2. Charity or love : humility is a being low in your own eyes , Christ bids you learn it of him . Nothing hath broacht Heresie and Schism so much as self conceit , and self love , as is shewed above in the case of the PPPriesthood , who conceive themselves to be those unerring orracles , from whom the law for Religion and faith is to go forth to the people throughout the several Nations , this makes men , these spiritual men especially to stand out in their own odd opinions , as if all were heresy ipso facto that jumps not with them , obstinately defend them , utterly untractable to any argument , though never so clearly urged out of the word it self , that shall be brought against them ; resolved never to yield to any Iudgement , nor willingly be in , much lesse embrace any company that holds contrary to them , proudly prohibiting any ( but such as are approved of by themselves ) disdaining to be discipled by any but men in orders , as if that poor people , and those babes , to whom God delights to reveal the Gospel , rather then such prudent ones , as they are in their own sight , were all as they said of old of such , a people that know not the law , and are accursed ; for which things sake the Lord suffers blindnes to happen to them , & leaves them to live in error as men lea ( ing to their own understanding but true humility as she is ever conscious of her own weaknesse and darknes , so when she is most sure that in the Lords power and light she sees light , and is most diffusive of it , and desirous that all others should see it also , and very zealous of promoting it , yet is she far from glorying over others , or boasting as if she had not received what she hath , much lesse is she so impositive as by compulsion , or otherwise then by plain proposal , round reproof , or earnest intreaty to inforce her faith as a rule for all people to believe by : and howbeit it submits not , as some say she does , is the judgments of others sooner then its own ( for that verily is no other then that humble ignorance , and implicit knowledge into which the PPPriesthood hath beguild the earth , who as much as they perswade men to expresse their humblenesse by a voluntary submission of themselves to others judgements , yet are as far from that expression of their own humility as men can be , that would have all men see with their eyes , swear into their faith , and resign up themselves to their judgement against their own ) yet she submits her judgement ( as proud Papacy , Prelacy , and Presbytery never did ) to such free examination by others judgements , as to le●d free leave to such as judge it wrong , and are not satisfied to close therewith , to decline and reject it , and both to believe and worship as they find occasion : and howbeit she must contend sometimes she dares not contend with any , much lesse her superiours ( as the Priest does with his whole parish now and then about some trifle or remnant of tithes ) for so small a matter as a smal matter , of means , or maintenance , but for matters of much more moment , and of eternal consequence viz. that faith and Gospel , which was once delivered unto the Saints , , for here indeed she gives place by subjection neither to ghostly father , nor holy mother , no not for an hour that the truth of the Gospel may continue , and as t is Christs things she seeks and strives for , and not her own , so she assaults not without strong and evident , and convincing reason from Scripture for her assertion , not such butterflies and brown paper reasons as mans tradition , 1500 y●●rs profession , nor meer internal imagination , and spiritual perswasion , which the Rantizer and the Ranter render : and even then too she prosecutes her cause with such candor and dociblenesse as to be ready to receive what ever is made manifest in the conscience to the contrary , without such arrogancy as appears in some Divines when they dispute , who are more ready to call them sawcy fellows that dares affront their false assertions , then to clear what they hold to be the truth , and without the Spirit of contradiction , that is wont to shew it self in every haughty heart , which is more asham'd to seem ignorant then to be so , most specially in the Priesthood , when the truth tendred is such , as if it be acknowledged will not onely crack his credit , but certainly pare his profit also . As for Charity alias love it is the very cognizance of a Christian the property of it is to blow out the coals of contention not kindle them in the true Church of Christ , though it contend sharply with the false Churches for the truth , to seek , what in it lies , to prevent , not foment rents , Schisms , divisions and offences therein , contrary to the doctrine at first delivered , the love of which occasions offences in the world , it is the very rafiers that hold all the house of Christ ( whose house they onely are that are built upon the foundation or form of doctrine delivered by the first Apostles , the principles of which are set down Heb. 6.1.2 . ) together in most comely frame and order : Oh that the Saints and faithful brethren in Christ of those Churches , that walk in truth , would among all , yea and above all those pretious things commended Col. 3.12 . ad 16. to be put on , would put on this , which is the very bond of perfectnesse ; this is that which will make them endeavour in all lowlinesse and meeknesse and forbearance , and forgivenesse of each other , to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace Eph. 4.2.3 . the love of the Brotherhood within it self , which is hinted to us by Peter , Pet. 2.17 . and harpt upon more then any other string by that beloved Disciple , Iohn 1 Ioh. 2.9.10.11.3.10.11.12.13 . &c. ad finum 4.7 . ad 13.20.21.5.1 . 2. Ep. 5.3 . Ep. 1. is that more excellent way which the Apostle Paul so magnifies to the Church of Corinth , as that without which all other gifts , tongues of men and angels , prophecy , understanding of mysteries , knowledge , faith of miracles , liberality to the poor , exposing the body to be burned , can make a man no better then as sounding brasse and a tinkling cymbal ▪ yea knowledge puffs up , and so plucks down the true Church , but love edifieth , buildeth it , and pulls down nothing but BBBabylon , 1 Cor. 8.1 . love sufereth long , and is kind , love envieth not , love ●aunteth not it self rashly , is not puffed up , doth not behave it self unseeemly , seeketh not her own , is not easily provoked , thinketh none evil , rejoiceth not in iniquity , but rejoiceth in the truth , beareth all things , believe all things , hopeth all things , endureth all things ▪ 1 Cor. 13. strengthneth all things , beautifieth all things , composeth all things , the contrary to which weakneth , ma●reth , ruinateth , consumeth Gal. 5. confoundeth all things in the Church Iam. 3● it is not apt to see things amisse more then she must needs , and if it cannot but see them , she will hid● , and rover them what she may , with a safe conscience , especially the nakednesse of her father and the shame of her mother , unless they both prove so abominably impudent and shamelesse , as like to the false , National , and Parochial Churches , and their ghostly fathers palpably to play the harlot under pretence of holinesse to the Lord , and then she may not hold her peace , but cry out upon 't , as she will not be held accessary to their sins , and guilty of the losse of love to the Lord her self : she extenuates faults in very enemies , so far as they are enemies to us onely , and not God , for she hates them that hate him , and can shew but little favour to their faults , however she will not aggravate them in brethren , it is not a light matter will work dislike in her of the brotherhood , much lesse departure and divorce : she covers a multitude of offences and will not upon such trivial ones , such meer mole-hills , as the sensualists of these times stumble at in the true Churches , break forth into distemper and rage : oh where is the charity of the true Church in these times ? where is the Cherub that covereth ? certainly if this of love had been the temper of all Christians and disciples in the true Churches ( as t is pretended to be theirs in the highest by such as are gone out from them mistaking lust for love ) the breach , the rent of the Ranters from the true Church had not been so great , nor the wound , or separation of that Schismatick so grievous : it must be a great and unsufferable crime , and that evidently proved must make charity break the bonds of peace , even that of perverting the primitive Gospel , changing Christs laws , and falsifying his ordinances in their forms and subjects , depraving his Divine institutions , defiling , corrupting , violating , adulterating his holy will and testament , worshipping God in vain , teaching for doctrine the traditions of men : and she will not then depart by separation till she despaires of Redresse , which was the Protestants case with their once holy mother the Church of Rome , when she prov'd a strumpet , the Presbyterian with their Ghostly fathers , the Prelatick Priests , the Independents with the Presbyters , the Baptists with the Independents , and all the rest , but not the Seekers case with the Baptists , for they act in all things according to the primitive pattern shewed in the word : as for all the rest , viz. the Po-Prela-Presbyter-Independent Pastoralty and people , they are altogether out of the way , and more or lesse corrupt and traditional in their constitutions , and dispensations to this day . 8. If doubts arise about the true form and right subjects of baptism go not to Seducers , or parish PPPriests for resolution , for they are not very well resolved about it , some saying t is of God , some of men , some that t is to be done to this end and purpose , some to that , some upon one kind of account , some upon another , as is discovered above in the Re-Review , they pretend at least to be seekers themselves , and pray for more light for both themselves , and their people , yet smoother it still as it rises upon them , yea many of them are so taken up with minding means and money , that they mean not to find truth , nor follow it faster , then it goes along with tith : go not therefore I say to them , That is dubius ad dubios , caecus ad caecos ( saith Tertullian in another case ) for the blind to be lead by the blind yea these are the blind guides of their blinder people , whom ( having themselves forgotten Christs Law ) they cause to erre : these are the staff to which people trust and lean , that declare their own falsehoods instead of Christs truth , these are the stocks of which they ask councel , that would have all men hang upon their mouths , and take things for truth as they come out by common consent from them ; and tell us that Gods advice is , Ask the Priest , and so it was concerning the Law , Hag. 2.12 . for the Priests lips should keep knowledge , and they should seek the Law at his mouth , but verily as t was said of the Priests of old , Mal. 2.1 . ad 10. so may it much more truly be said now , the Priests will not hear the Lords commandements , and will not lay it to heart to give glory to his name , therefore God sends a curse upon them , and blasts their understandings , and blinds their eyes , and curses their blessings , because they lay it not to heart . Indeed they bid us Ask the Priest ; as if they were very forward to resolve men , but alas , as many of them are not much minded to be resolved themselves in that point , which intrenches too much upon their interest , so much lesse are they minded ( for the most part ) in order to the resolution of others to render any reason of their way of baptism at all before their people , I have been more then either an eye or an ear witnesse of not onely the rigid refusals to answer , but also , the rough repulses that have been given by some of chiefest note in our County of Kent , to such as have never so modestly propounded questions to them , or demanded an account of the truth of their practise in their publick places . And how no answer , but no answer , Dr. Chamberlain had from Dr. Gouge to this question , Whether the sprinkling of Infants were of God or man ? is known sufficiently to all , though it was pressed on him in three or four letters by all the rationall and Christian considerations that could be possible , yea though he intreated him to return him an answer for his own sake , to return him an answer for Dr. Gouges own sake , to return him an answer for the peoples sake , to return him an answer for Gods sake , yet how did he put him off with delaies ( as if the businesse were now dubious to himself , when as formerly he had acknowledged , that it was a tradition of the Church ) and would give answer nec per se , nec per se Synodum . When therefore they shall say unto you ask the Priest , seek unto us , I say seek not unto them , that say they seek , but are loath to find themselves , or at least are afraid that men should find , and see all that , which they cannot clearly deny to be the truth : seek not to them that peep , and that mutter , and speak not out , as if the matter were not momentary to be mentioned , as if they were in a quandary whether it be safe or no to seek too seriously after the truth o●t , should not a people seek unto their God ? for the living to the dead ? to the law , and to the testimony your selves oh yee people , if they speak not plainly according to the word , it is because there is no light in them , Isa. 8 19 , 20. Ask therefore the High Priest Christ Jesus and if you cannot be resolved so speedily as you desire to your satisfaction and content , be content to stay till God shall reveal : in the mean time , while you doubt , suspend the practise , and do nothing doubtingly , but exercise your selves the while in searching the Scripture and prayer , to which pretious practise God hath made many pretious promises in his word as namely , That they shall be undefiled in the way that seek the Lord , with their whole heart : Psalm 119.1 , 2. That if thou wilt turn at his reproof , though thou hast been a simple one , and hast loved simplicity , a scorner that delightest in scorning , and jearing at the truth , and a fool that hath hated knowledge , which all are high degrees of sin , yet he will powre out his spirit upon thee , which happily hath been thy laughing stock , and make known his words unto thee , Prov. 1.22.23 . that if thou wilt receive his words and hide his commaddements within thee , If thou incline thine ear unto wisdom and apply thy heart unto understanding , yea if thou cryest after knowledge , and liftest up thy voice for understanding , if thou seekest her as silver , and searchest for her as for hid treasure , then thou shalt understand the fear of the Lord , and find the knowledge of God Prov. 2.1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. Yet be assured of this , humble ignorance in many questions debated in these daies by Divines , and also in old time before us by learned Schoolmen and Casuists , and by the Popish priests , that reason about the unreasonable fopperries , and refusely scum that arises out of the dead sea of their divinity , is more acceptable to God then contentious curiousity : yet not such humble ignorance about the ordinances of Christ as our Priesthood would hold men in , as if the Law and Oracles of Christ , which are all plain to him that understandeth , were in things necessary to salvation so difficult , and obstruse that poor mechanicks must meddle no more in t then they have leave from them ; in facili et apecto postta est salus , the way of salvation is plain to be found in the book of God , he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved : Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of the Lord for remission of sins , and ye shall receive the gift of the holy spirit : but the PPPriesthood hath led men the next way round about to salvation , and framed a new Gospel for their followers , which Scripture makes no mention of at all : but as those Israelites that were led up and down the wildernesse so long God had sworne should not enter into his xest , so neither shall those Christians , that , when the truth lyes plain before them , delight rather to trace to and fro in the thicket of traditions received from their after forefathers , then in the way of the first fathers of the Church , and love more to wander , then to walk in the narrow way of truth , in the vast forrest , wondrous wood , and wide wildernesse of the PPPriests inventions . 9. Consider sadly in heresie the sin , the punishment , the sin St. Paul places it among the works of the flesh , Murder , Idolatry , Witchcraft , Drunkenness &c. and well may , for t is onely in favour of the flesh , and for some base fleshly ends , or other that men depart from the way of truth , and not of the spirit , for that leadeth those that are resolved to be led by it , as it speaks in the Scriptures , into all truth , as it is in the mind of Christ Jesus , Iohn 14. The least heresie cannot be excused , the nature of it is to gather as it grows , it is to run downhil , and that 's the cause why so many follow it and so few the truth , for its an uphill , a narrow way that leads to life , therefore few find it , but facilis descensus averni the way to the bottomlesse pit is an easie , and broad descent , therefore many there be that go in thereat , even whole towns Counties , Kingdoms , yea the whole world 1 Ioh 5.19 . Rev. 13.3 . a few onely excepted , that obey the truth , whose names therefore are written in the book of life , the heretick that hath begun it cannot stop when he will , but when once he ceases to receive and retain God in his knowledge , and the love of the truth that he may be saved , through some base love of the world , and the lucre and lust thereof , that he may be pleased , profited , preferred , a 100 to one , but he is hardned for ever in blindnesse , God also giving him over , as well as he himself to deeper , and deeper delusion , and at last to the love of lies , more then truth : Ieroboams rent turned into idolatry , and the rent of such as run from the primitive doctrine of Christ is come to no less ; the Rantizer and the Ranter also are both sad examples to us , how fear●ul a thing it is to run away from the plain path of the word of Christ , the one whereof , when he ran down once , but so far as to take upon him to mend Christs ordinances , and teach for doctrine his own traditions , never left adding more and more of his own odd constitutions , till he sunk ore head and ears in a gulf of golden legends , and a lake of lies ; the other when he had once declined the Scripture , and denied all ordinances , never left advancing himself into the clouds of his own airy conceits , till his waxen wings melted with his soring so neer the sun , and so he fell headlong into a sink of sordid sensuality . The punishment is either temporal , the Donatists of old ( as some say ) the Anabaptists as they are commonly cal'd , of Germany , who , if ever they ownd the truth , abode not very long in it , are examples of Gods Iudgements in that kind : spiritual blindnesse of understanding , hardnesse of heart , seeing and not perceiving , hearing and not understanding , and last of all eternal the worm that never dies : Christ shews all mens labour in their religion is lost by reason of it , in vain do they worship me , teaching for doctrine the traditions of men ; the Apostle shuts heaven against it , 5. Gal. and twice over denounces cursing to any , yea angels from heaven , that preach any other then what they preached , and I am sure they never preached infant sprinkling , yea whoever is an heretick vel dandi vel auferendi sacu in either excesse or defect , by adding or taking away from the word , God will add the plagues upon him , that are written in that book , and take away his name out of the book of life . Saint Austin saith of Arrius ( how true that saying is I say not , but t is an argument , ( Ad hominem ) a good item however for every one that is any other way Antichristianus ) that his paines are increased in hell as oft as any one thorough his heresie is seduced from the faith , therefore vae vobis Scribae Sacerdotes &c. Last of all to mourn for the calamities of the true Church , which hath for this 1600 yeares , been spoiled , and under clouds and partly by the Roman Empire Heathen , partly by the Roman Empire Christian been trod under the feet of tyrranical truth tr●aders , the losse of souls , the Scandal of true Religion , which is , and hath been every where spoken against : houses and lands , wives and children , goods and liberties , when lost , consumed , destroyed , are lamented by us , should not Ch●ists losses be more dear ? and how much more the losse of Christ himself ? who , as he told of that ecclipse of that primitive entercourse , which he had with his people then , by the interposition , and comming of the prince of this world between him and them , so hath now of a long time been a great stranger in all Christendome : On What comfort had it been to have had the Son of God walkisg with us , may the Chr●stian world say , in the midst of the flames that have devoured , and wasted in all corners of it , but specially the third part of Christian men , which hath been killed by the fire , and by the smoak , and by the brimstone , which issued out of the mouths of the four Angels , that were bound before in the great River Euphrates , i. e. the four cruel Territories of the Turkish Empire , united all under one head , viz. Ottoman the Great , some 390 years ago , and from thenceforth getting ground on this side Euphrates , to no lesse then a third part of Christendome , as being indeed prepared for an hour , a day , a month , a year , i. e. 391. years to slay the third part of nominall Christians , with most inhumane mercilessenesse and cruelty , Rev. 9 12. ad sinem . I say what comfort would it have been to have ●ad not onely the name , but the spiritual presence of Christ preserving , for those that were consumed in that divellish devastation ? but alas the Heresies , Blasphemyes , and abominable idolatries of the Christian nations have made him depart , and leave the men , that meerly by name are Christians , to utter distress and darknesse , without either succour or support under such bloudy sufferings : those sins where not so much suffered in civil States ( for that may be ) as set up and stablished as the onely Christianity to be allowed of ( as they have been by the national , Antichristian , Christian Churches ) so that true Christianity is suppressed and suffers for the sake out , and for nonconformity thereunto , are ever , and ever will be the forerunners of the removal of his Candlestick , and of the destruction of the very denomination of Church at last , among that people , that have a name to live and are dead . However let us ( O ye that are the true Christian Churches ) Mourn for our own sins , those sins , which have provoked God so much to wrath against his true Churches in former times , are beginning to be too rife among us , therefore why may he not justly , if we lay it not to heart in time , deal so with us as of old with them , so as to dischurch us , so as to lay open our fence , ●read down our hedge , break down our Tower , and expose his vine to every beast of the Forrest , let us be zealous and repent , and in secret let our souls weep for the abominations done in the midst of Sion , let horror take hold on us , and rivers of tears run down our eyes because men keep not Christs law ; le ts mend what we can , and mourn for what we cannot mend : and whilest , as the Ranter and his Rout laughs our weak works to scorn on the one hand , so the CCClergy and their Clients on the other , puff at our Mechanick buildings , as Sanballa● scoffed at the Iewes Neb. 4.1 , 2 , 3 , saying in malice and mockage , What do these feeble folk ? will they fortify themselves against our Orthodox Divines ? will they sacrifice without a Priest among them ? will they make an end in a day to reform , which is many a years work for a learned Synod ? will they revive the stones , even the dead bones of old Hereticks , out of the heaps of rubbish that are burnt ? that which they build if a fox go up , he shall even break down their stone wall ; le ts not be discouraged , nor afraid to proceed in the way and work of the Lord : let them laugh , but let us weep for them , as well as not spare to reprove them , so far as we have any hope to reform them , let them curse , but let us blesse ; yea let us fast and pray , not with Wednesday , and good Fryday fasts , and Lent'n Letanies : nor with the Pharisees twice a week fasts , who paid tith , and refused to submit to Christs baptism : nor yet with Jezebells fasts , who set honest Naboath on high , and accused him of blasphemy on that day with so much the greater advantage and finer pretence , as , if the Clergy did not when they obtained fasts against hereticks , t will not repent them so much another time , as some think it may yet , of those repentances : nor yet with the Jews fasts , that fasted for strife and debate , and to smite with the fist of wickednesse , that hung down their heads for a day , like a bulrush ; and thought God was half beholding to them for it , because they spread sackcloath and ashes under them , though they neither loosed the bands of wickednesse , nor let the oppressed go free , nor undid heavy burdens , nor broak every yoak , nor dealt their bread to the hungrie , nor brought the poor that were cast to their houses , nor coveted the naked when they saw them , but rather hid themselves from their own flesh , and hardned their hearts against the poor , and heaped up riches for themselves , and oppressed full as much , and it may be much more then before ; shall we call these fasts , and acceptable daies to the Lord Isa. 58 they are all abominable rather then acceptable . Therefore let us fast as well from as for iniquity ; and what ever others do let us serve the Lord : let us call for justice and plead for truth , let us not defile our hands with blood , nor our fingers wiith iniquity , let our lips speak no lies , nor our tongue mutter perversenesse , let us not hatch cockatrice egges , nor weave such spiders webs , as have been woven in the Nations to entangle tender consciences in , and make the poor harmlesse flies a very prey to their malevolent intentions ; so shall we cause our voice to be heard on high , let us thus fast and pray , and with fasting and prayer , endeavour the casting out of every blind , and deaf , and dumb devil , and beseech the Lord that the eyes of the Priesthood , and their People may be opened to see , their eares unstopped that they may hear the truth , & their tongues unloosed , that they may be preachers of it indeed , as now they are in pretence , and in word onely and no more . Christian Reader , that ownest the truth , if thou beest profited , so as to discern between Christs way , and the CCClergies more clearly then ever , give God the glory , for nought but shame belongs to man ; and pray for those that desire , as the conversion of others to it , so thy preservation in the truth , which oh how hard is it to abide by in these evil times of temptation from the fals Churches & the non-chuches , which both seek what they can to unchurch the true , which ( thou continuing faithfully in it to the death ) shall onely lead thee unto everlasting life : but if any man will be ignorant let him be ignorant . Now as to the Apologetical part I say thus to you O ye Priests , you are of all men the generation whose great and general displeasure I expect to fall under , and for this present works sake , to become your enemy more universally then ever yet , because I here tell you the truth : but ( as little hope as I have to be heeded by you in what I say ) I must tell you ( and the Lord judge between you and me whether I speak the truth or not ) I am so far from desiring the temporal , much more the eternal destruction of any one of you , that as far as t is possible I would prevent both : yea if by the publication of all this I seek any thing next to Gods glory , more then the salvation as well of your own souls , as of such as are seduced and insnared by your spiritual sorceries in wayes of false worship , heresie , and Schism from the primitive truth will not the Lord at last find me out ? nay verily I love the persons of you all as well as other mens ; indeed I love you too well to spare sharpness toward you , or in silence suffer you to perish , as I verily believe ( and therefore speak the more plainly to you , that by any means I may save some of you ) without remedy you will do , persisting in your wonted obstinacy against the Gospel : this being the faith which God hath begotten me to , by a serious search and observation of the word and world together , the faith which he hath for some years made me to live in , and will ( I trust if he call me to it ) strengthen me to die in , rather then deny one jot of it to please men , good or bad , friend , or foe , unlesse it be discovered to me to be a false one , I must not be ashamed to professe it for fear of them that kill the body , for then wo unto me from him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell , and should I be altogether silent , as my fearful flesh would fain be , least I should prove an intollerable offence to my friends , and seem to be ( as O my God thou knowest how far I am not ) a self avenger on my foes , and expose my self ( as at no hand I desire to do , might it be avoided ) to the hatred and hard censure of you all , the light of this truth would arise many other wayes , yea the Lord pleadeth it before you day by day by the tongues and pens of others besides my self , but I neverthelesse might be destroyed : I had at first illumination , and strong impulsions of spirit , not perceiving ( like Samuel , who thought it had been Eli that called him , and not the Lord ) whether it were the suggestion of Gods spirit or my own , and when at last I understood clearly that t was the Lord himself , that told me he would do such a thing to the house of Eli i. e. the Generation of the Priesthood as should cause the eares of all that ●ear it to tingle , I feared likewise to shew Eli the vision , and was as loath to declare , as you OPPPriests are to hear the things concerning you here declared ; I was ready to say to the Lord , send this message by the hand of him by whom thou wilt send , but necessity was upon me , yea wo unto me , my God had been a terrible one to me had I refused it , yea I may say as Ieremy Ier. 20.7.9 . O Lord thou hast deceived me , and art stronger then I and hast prevailed , for I said I will not make mention of this , nor speak it in thy name , but his word was within me as fire in my bones , and I was weary with forbearing , and I could not stay ; he whose face onely I seek , that I may not be deceived , the light or louring of whose countenance is more to me then the favours or frowns of all faces , hath prest me in spirit to tell that on the house tops which he hath told me in the ear in a closet : what shall befal me in so doing I know not , save that the spirit witnesseth that afflictions do every where abide me , and all those that will live godly in Christ Jesus , yet none of these things move me , neither count I my life dear unto me , that I may finish my race , and the ministry I have received of the Lord Jesus , to testifie the Gospel of the grace of God Act. 20.24 . if your Ministry , Gospel , doctrine , Baptism be right , then ours is wrong , and if ever it appear we shall come back to you , if ours be right then yours is wrong , and must be declared that you may return to the truth . I know there are many things you will question ( not to say quarrel with ) me about , First , you 'l ask me why I do not for the peace sake of the Church forbear , and keep my opinions in these points to myself , rather then publish them so plainly in print , as well as by word and penne , to the disturbance thereof ? To which I say , if it be the truth I hold , and matter of weight withall , it wil excuse the promoting of it self , if it were to the distraction of the Church ( which is to be subject to the truth , and not the truth to her ) & also to the distruction of the world , fiat justitia , aut pere at mundus , Secondly , the matters held forth here by me , which are mainly the falsness of your Ministry and baptism , are , as truth , so of such consequence as to be well worth discovering , if either Luther did well to declare against the Pope and Clergy of Rome , or your selves O Presbyters against Prelates , Deans and Chapters &c. without regard to the several disturbances that were like to be consecutive thereto : yea the true subject and manner of administration of baptism , which ( when it serves your turn so to do ) you call a circumstantial matter , a ceremony for which ( if you should erre therein ) none but weak & querulous consciences will complain and separate , an indifferent thing for which why should we make so much ado ? a●g●at , not to be streind at and such like , is so necessary a matter , one of the most necessary points of Religion , which those that erre in do most fearfully erre , and are totally deserted by the spirit of God , these are your own words . Thirdly , you talk much ( and t is the language of the Pope to your selves since you rent from his Church ) of the Church , and our holy mother the Church , and Ghostly fathers of the Church , and good and true tempered sons of the Church , and the peace of the Church , and Schismaticks in the Church , &c. wherewith you astonish the vulgar , but I protest this day before God , and men , not onely against him , against whom you are Protestants also , but against your selves also his Schismatical sons , who own his ordinations , and still walk in some of his ordinances , viz. Rantism , Parochial posture &c. as those that are little lesse ignorant then he , and his good sons , of both the true Church , and true peace thereof , whilst the truth , to which she should submit , is not regarded by you , and the very things that make a true visible Church , and are de esse and constitutive of it , so that abstract them , and you null it viz. true matter i. e. believers baptized , and true form i. e. free and not forced fellowship , both which are so in the Churches of England , Scotland , Italy , France and Spain , are not onely wanting , but also trodden under your feet . Fourthly , the peaceable way wherein we propagate these opinions , were you as sure they are erroneous , as I am that you 'l once find them to be truth , will yet excuse , and acquit us from all guilt of disturbing the peace of either the world , or your Church , which is the world in reference to the true one ; and unlesse you can say the Gospel of peace , which where ere it comes , occasions dissentions , is the cause of them , as in no wise it is , but mens lusts rather that rage , and take on against it , you cannot say our Gospel is ; for it propounds them to the world in no other way then that , and that way was no other then bare propounding them : and as Christ and his disciples did not judge them here , though they will judge them most severely hereafter , who reject their words , by the power of the Magistrate , by the civil sword , by nailing to pillories , cutting off ears , slitting noses , whippings , ●ines , confiscations , prisons , bonds , banishments , fightings , fire , and fagot , the bloody wayes whereby BBBabilon hath edified it self to that height of abomination , the Arguments whereby the CCClergy were wont to convert Hereticks quickly from all error to dust , and ashes ; so if any man hear our words and reject them , well may we rebuke him sharply , as they also did , but we judge him not , in that way whereby the Tribe of Levi , that hath levied war for his lusts sake against the whole earth , hath bereft all men of peace : neverthelesse the words that we speak to him , being those that Christ and his disciples have spoken in the world , the same will judge him at the last day . Secondly , why ( sith it must needs be supposed there be many Godly men among the Ministers of the Nations , though the most of them be wicked yet ) I do not except , and exempt them , when I inveigh so heavily against the CCClergy ? or why I do not rather forbear , and spare to speak so broad at all , and so generally as I do against that generation as an evill one , for the sake of those good ones , that are among them ? To which I say , First , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 godly men properly are those onely that worship God aright , i. e. according to his own will and institution , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , * which well weighed might possibly put the best men among you to your trumps to make good your title to that title , and denomination of godly by Scripture record , sith while you stand among the rest , even you as well as the worst do preach , and practise for doctrines of Christ some traditions of man , if you had no more enjoined you by them , on whom you wait for your instructions , then barely the sprinkling of infants , by which you make void , what in you is , the true baptism of Christ. Yet not denying but that there is a sprinkling of honest hearts quorum meliori luto finxit praecordia Titan , whom the sun of righteousnesse , as he lightens every man that cometh into the world , hath hatcht up into a higher predicament of Godlinesse then their fellowees , who are drawn up into some higher streins of devotion then the rest , I adde further . Secondly , what are these littles to the lump ? what is the gleaning to the vintage ? here and there one good man to the whole corrupt crue of them , that like Locusts , and Caterpillars have spread themselves together with the smoak of errors over the earth in three several swarms or armies ? can some scores of well meaning Priests give the denomination of an holy PPriesthood , godly Ministry to those legions of them that lie in wickednesse ? you may as well say there 's a million of Saints among the men of the world , therefore reprove not the world for their sakes : such as these , who out of meer simple honestly , rather then sinful sophistry and mystical iniquity do stand , and act , and argue against the true way as they do , are Rarae aves , very few to the multitude of humanists , and sensual ones , and subtle subverters of the Gospel ( which yet they would seem to be Ministers of ) for their own ends ; by whom they are commonly so hated too so far as they have any more strictnesse and sincerity then ordinary , that they are among the other of their brethren ( as I was for querying after truth while I stood among them ) as owles and bats baited by other birds : which few good grapes were they better then they are , cannot denominate the whole vintage , as una hirundo non facit ver : BBBabilon is BBBabilon still , and SSSodom is SSSodom , and must be called so , though Lot live in it , and he called out of it too , unlesse he mean mean to perish with it . Thirdly , those good men that are there ( the mores the pitty that they are so ) ought not to be suffered nor spared , but spoke to the rather themselves , and that very roundly too ▪ for being and abiding in a bad way , and not the way it self , and those many bad men that are in it scape declaring against , as bad , because of them : there must be down-right dealing with upright men , when they are in a wrong way , and that indeed is the most upright dealing with them of all : yea Sirs , you that are upon the Account of these times for godly Ministers , let me say this to you , for verily I have sorrow of heart for some of you of my old acquaintance , my own flesh and blood , for whose sakes f●esh in me would fain be silent , as knowing flesh in you would fain be let a lone , but I must urge you to be serious in seeing how unsafely you satisfie your selves in your present fellowship with a carnal Clergy : what make you among the prophane Ministry of the Nations , that hath in all ages sate with such weight upon them , as to sink them into a gulf of error , so that all truth almost is heresie with them now , and under hazard of being smoothered as soon as it peepes out from under that veil of traditions , that hath covered it ? what make you keeping a Court of guard among the Babilonians to help to hold them in captivity still , at least in the Suburbs , and by the borders of Babilon , where you yet linger and loiter for all your pretences and protestations to go quite home with them , that are resolved for Sion ? what mean you to stand so neer in affinity as to make one spiritualty , one spiritual fraternity with such fl●shly minded men , as the main body of the national ministry consists of in all Europe ? for t is evident you 'l enter into the lists , and make head with the worst of them , even with the Pope himself , against any further discoveries of truth , then will stand with your standing among them , though the Lord makes out the truth more clear , and you seem in your prayers to desire him so to do : yea I am almost ashamed to utter what I see , I see preciseness and prophaness go hand in hand to keep out the true Righteousness indeed . So that if I speak to the whole body of the CCClergy throughout the earth , as very often I do , yet I bespeak you no otherwise then I find you viz. whether for this or for that in particular , yet all banded in one general body against the truth ; for as Herod and Pilate though at enmity could yet agree as friends against Jesus , so you though of never so different complexions , and constitutions , lives , and conversations , doctrines , and disciplines , forms and fashions , and goverments and Gospels , yet are all friends to Christs crucifying in his disciples : yea how implacably are you at odds among your selves , one sort of you being for the supremacy of the Pope , another for the Super-intendeny of the Bishop , a third for the superstitions of the Synods , others for they scarce know which , and they care not what , but as the temper of the times doth dispose them ; some Rantizing infants from one ground viz. because its a tradition , some denying that , and disclaiming it as both a rotten and false one , yet Romanizing still from some other , some , and those the most , more loose , a few more strict in their manners , notwithstanding all which variety , you are at unity still , i. e. at emnity against the Gospel of Christ. But should you help the ungodly , and love them that hate the Lord ? surely wrath will be upon you with them from the Lord : If you Iehosophats i. e. the honest Presbyters in whom good things are found , who have taken away the groves , and much more of that Romish rubbish then your father Asa i. e. the good old , Bishops did before you , if you good Iehosaphats I say , will after all this join with the wicked Ahabs that trouble Israel , in imprisoning the Michaiahs , at least by a silent assent , and with the Ahaziahs that do wickedly , so as to lay your heads together for ship-loads of Gold , 2 Chron. 3.31.19.2.20.35.26.38 . for more means and maintenance , saying to them , we are in this point as you are , our people as your people , our parishes as your parishes , our Articles of faith herein as your Articles of faith , our way of maintenance as yours , and we will be with you in the warre to reduce the Giliadites , the sectaries , that should be subject to us , to our obedience : your ships and all your projects , works and councels will be broken , and disappointed as the others , what ever may become of your persons : true men in a false way are out of Gods protection , as well as hypocrites in a true . Therefore depart ye from the tents of those ungodly men , yea arise and depart from that Papistical posture of parish Churches , and Pastoral relation to such as are not sheep , which not Christ Iesus , but the Pope stated men in at first , for this is not your rest because it is polluted , it will destroy you with a sore destruction ; whereupon come out from them and be ye seperate , yea come out of her come out of her , ye that are Christs people ( for Christs Ministers you are not , though never so good men , by Antichrists orders ) and partake no longer with her in her sins , least ye partake also of her plagues . Fourthly , the Godlinesse and honesty of mens persons doth not prove the goodnesse and truth of the outward form and way of Church-order they are in , nor must hinder the overturning it if false , who will say many of these under the Episcopacy were not good men ? if good men stand in a bad place , soil , or posture , they have so much the more need to be removed , as trees , and transplanted into a better : for many of you Presbyters that go for godly were as godly every jot , while you stood in that false Episcopal form as now , and some of you somewhat more ( for it s much to be feared that the settling of you in the same Hierarchy over the faith , and chair of infallibility here in England , out of which you justled the Bishops , and they but an age above removed the Pope , and the enjoyment of so much of their means , hath been a means of abating much of your godlinesse , and righteousnesse too ( if ever you had any ) or else the Priest surely would not so have so soon forgot that ere he was Clark as to have gone about ( so high Presbytery did but that God prevented him of his purpose ) so soon as ever he was gotten out of his own growning condition , and kept from the clutches of those that crusht him , to crush those that groan'd under him for the same liberty of conscience , out of Smectimnus his own mouth . ) There were therefore ( if not as many good men ) yet many as good men and ( to their then light sincere souls owning Prelacy , and some ( its like ) owning the Papacy it self * , as may seem to be among you that now disown both , yet did not this forbid you , nor stop your mouths from using sharp invectives against their Authority as usurped , their Government as ill , their spiritual Courts , consistories , and several sessions as spiteful to the truth , their wayes as violent against tender consciences , that could not close with them , their Liturgies , Ordinations , administrations of Ordinances , Baptism and Supper , Discipline , directories for worship and Catechism &c. as altogether superfluous , superstitious , unlawful , and abominably corrupt , their revenues too great ( though little enough for your selves if you could catch it ) their power too absolute ( till it came into your own hands ) their Synods too supercilious , arrogant , arbitrary , and impositive upon the state both powers and people ( till you had a Synod of your own ) their pluralty of benefices too much of all conscience for one man ( till conscience in some of you was made wide enough to have and to hold as many cures as ever you can compasse ) and themselves an untoward and perverse generation , the Whore of Babilon , ( so Rutherford ) and the very best among them , too bad , and much more to blame then others , for not seeing your model to be better , and for once offering to set their shoulders to the upholding of so rotten a fabrick : why therefore since your domination is the same , and your government as Tyrannicall as the other , the extent of your dominions the same , for they rule but over all , and you over no more then you can subject , the subject matter of your churches the same viz. whole England , whole Scotland , whole Common-wealths , the whole world at once , if it would as Catholikely submit to your directory , as it did once to the Popes , in point of worships , and payments , at least , whether godly in their conversations or no , your parish form the same , your Ministry a Ministry by the same orders , and mostly of the same men , new moulded , not so much in mind and manners , as in manner of ministration according to the laws for alteration , in a word your whole Hierarchy , though new suited , so far the same , that you are no lesse Cozen Germane to them , then they two are one unto another , why may it not , I say , be proportionably reproved , notwithstanding a number of honest and godly men among those , that are not more numberlesse , then so godlesse , that they may well say of themselves , Nos numeri sumus fruges consumere nati ? 5. Specially since the best men are by so much unworthy to be justifyed , & favored in the false form they are found in , by how much , in some respects , they do more wrong to the truth , then the very worst that are in that wrong way with them . For though the wicked Ministers are the worst , both to themselves and to all others otherwise , whether Popes , Prelates , Presbyters , or Popish Priests of of any kind , yet herein the best are worst , and even more injurious then any viz. as they are greater stumbling blocks to some , and , by standing still in a superstitious way , stand more in the way of such as ( living more at a venture by their example in all things then the word ) would else escape it , then prophane ones are capable to do : thus pious Priests , that are adored as Popes in their several parishes , more dazzle their peoples eyes from discovering the whole mystery both of iniquity and godlynesse , then dissolute , rude , proud , paultry ones possibly can , when once the Gospel comes among them : yea , Pope Caelestinus , Pope Clemens , Pope Innocentius , Pope Pius , Pope Formosus , Pope Vrbanus , do more captivate their cures to continuance in crooked customes , then either Leo , or Helbrandus . When men in a false Ministry are any better then ordinary in their persons ; though never so Antichristian in their performances , yet how many are hardened to the heeding of these , as Christian enough for their sakes : but when they are not onely traditionary in their services , but impious and impenitent in their lives , this renders not onely their deformation more discernable , but also reformation more desirable then else it would be ; so as corruptio optimi est pessima , the pervertures of good men are most prejuditious , if not pernitious to the truth , ex malis moribus bonae nascuntur leges ▪ the parish Ministers immodest manners makes modest men look out for some better lawes and Gospel . There 's one thing more I know you will charge me with ( for you Ashford Disputants did once before thousands , when there was ( seemingly ) lesse occasion then now , viz. that I am too sharp and Satyrical , that I rail at and revile you , in stiling you an Adulterous generation , Antichristian , Hereticall , Schismaticall To which I say , first that , though some of you would have muzzled me up then , by an Article , from that which you call reviling , least happily I should have unmaskt you too much , yet , in your sense , that Article shall not bind me at this time ( with your leave ) for you call that reviling that is not so : would you set your selves soberly once to reason things out , i. e. to discern them properly as they are , you would find , that no man is reviled that is seasonably and soberly declared , and denominated to be but what he is : for be the titles we note men by never so grosse , yet are they but their proper names , if in all things suitable to the subject : hence ( though I can excuse your ignorance in terming me Anabaptist , for that 's impropriation indeed ) yet I le more then pardon you , print me out how you will , so you print me no worse then you prove me : and as for me whatever stile I put upon you , as I do it in a serious and not lusory way , so I make it out to be your due : as also what you Presbyters put upon the Prelates , and you Prelates upon the Popedome , viz. the denomination of Antichristian , Strumpet , Babylon , and such like , you make plainly enough appear to be their due , and therefore I cannot possibly be said properly to revile you , forasmuch as upon the self same Account as you cry out upon each other and use these disgracefull and opprobious termes ( as you term them ) towards one another , I ( as justly ) cry out in the same language against you all ; unlesse you will yield to it , as I know you will not , that you are Revilers your selves . If what I say of you be indeed more then the truth , I le not onely expect your contradiction , but accept thankfully your correction of me from the word ; but if you cannot from thence deny but that I call you what you are , then as you will not be guilty of overcharging your selves as well as me , you must acquit me from the guilt of reviling , for as I lend you no worse language then you lend one another in the like cases , so as I plead my innocency in it , must you plead your own else can you be held guiltlesse no more then I , but we must all be revilers togegether . When the Pope challenges the Prelatical party for stiling him the Roman Antichrist , * and the mystical Whore of Babylon , and the Prelates likewise come upon Presbytery , for making them as much Babylon as the other ( for so doth Mr. Rutherford the Scotchman * calling the two Governments of Italy and England , the Popes and Prelates lawlesse Church Monarchy , saying of the Prelate that he could not find his Father , and was ashamed of his native Father Diotrephes , i. e. the Pope , and that the Pope was his Godfather , and Rome his Godmother ▪ and that Antichristian Prelacy was but spilt Popery , half dyed Papistry , terming them also children of Babell * when also ( I say ) you of the Presbytery are challenged by the Bishops , and the Prelacy by the Popes for revilers , in the words , wherein you challenge us , and wherein Paul was questioned for his term Thou w●ited wall , viz revilest thou Gods high Priest ? you can excuse your selves no otherwise then he did , i. e. we wist not that you are Gods high Priests , but are assured you are rather what we call you ; even so , if you shall say to my self revilest thou the Ministers of Christ ? I say ( Sirs ) I wist not that you are Ministers of Christ any more then the Pope himself , i. e. as much as just nothing , for as quod efficit tale must be magis tale ( vertually at least if not formally ) so nil dat quod in se non habet , so that the Roman Antichrist being no true one himself , and in no commission from Christ to make his Ministers , could not ( secundum te O Presbyter ) make those true Ministers , that made those , that made them , that made these that make you , and so what ere you are ( as from him ) yet ( as from Christ ) you are no Ministry at all , but in very deed the very same that I cal you , viz. of the Beast , and of the D●agon , as also the three fold CCChristendome ( of whom you say that they are Jewes , i. e. Christians , when they are not ) are no other then the Synogogue of Satan . In all which so far am I from reviling , that I speak the words of sobernesse , and truth , which whoever does may not unlikely be reviled as a reviler , by you , but is a faithfull reprover indeed : for it is not simply vile terms spoken that make a reviler ( if spoken both seriously and in season ) but their non agreeablenesse to them they are spoken of : for else undoubtedly not onely your selves ( who spake as vilely of the Pope as I of you , but Iohn Baptist , Peter , Paul , yea , and Christ Iesus himself ( none of which reviled at all , though upon occasion of their enmity against God they called men ( whom else they respected well enough too ) by the name of Satan * , evil and adulterous generation , Generation of Vipers , children of the devil , enemies of all righteousnesse , bruit beasts , Foxes , Doggs , Swine , &c. ) must all be revilers with you too . This take therefore from me ( and let it satisfy ) viz. that I le never fasten any terms upon you , which by your works you first fasten not on your selves , yet know that persisting as you have done under the notion of Christs Ministers ) in pride and perversenesse against his Gospel , though I should never call you Deceivers , Antichristian and the WWWhore of BBBabylon , yet you l prove your selves to be so in the end . Now therefore Oh HHHarlot hear , and fear , for I have heard from the Lord of Hosts a consumption determined upon thee throw out the whole earth , thou hast , being well mounted , harnased , and attired upon the back of thy beast , made warr against the Lamb in his Saints ( thy Hereticks ) for fourty two moneths , a time , times and a half , or 1260 years , and power hath been given thee , and the beast , which thou spurrest , to overcome them , and over kindreds , tongues , and nations , so that all that dwell upon earth have worshipped him , and thee on him , whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world : yea thou hast opened thy mouth in blasphemies , and caused thy beast under thee to blaspheme the name of God and his Tabernacle and them that dwell in heaven , yea thou hast spoken great words against the most High , and worn out the Saints of the most high , and thought to change times and lawes and they have been given into thy hand , so that who was like to thee and thy beast , who was able to encounter and make war with him ? but now behold thy proud times are ended , and the Lamb will overcome thee , for he is King of Kings , and Lord of Lords , and they that are with him are called and chosen and faithful , and thou that hast led into captivity shalt go into captivity ▪ and thou that hast killed with the sword must be killed by the sword , here is the patience and faith of the Saints : And the very ten hornes themselves , even all the kingdomes of Christendome , into whose hearts it hath been put to give thee all their power and strength , as well as the tith of all their glory , and riches and carnall things , upon thy pretence of ministring to them in spiritual ( all which thou hast swom upon , been born up , and fortifyed by , as Babylon of old by the River Euphrates , and with all which thou hast as with so many hornes of a savage beast , tossed , bruised , gored the sides of Saints under the name of Sinners ) even these shall now turn upon thee , and unhorse thee , yea they shall hate thee O Whore , and make thee desolate and naked , and burn thy flesh with fire , so that all thy lovers great and small , and thy Merchants that have been rich by trading , as in other things , so especially in bodies , and souls of men shall bewail and lament , when they see the smoak of thy burning , saying Alas , Alas for thee , whilest Gods people that are first come out of thee , yea whole heaven , and all the holy Apostles and Prophets , who now suff●r under thee for telling thee the truth , and shall be avenged of thee , shall rejoice over thee at thy downfall . You will hardly give audience O ye Priests to this word , but some of you rather cry out against me , as multitudes of your Churches good children did some few dayes since in Smithfield , when by one of the City Marshals , meerly for preaching the Gospel to thousands there assembled to hear it , I was betrayed into their hands to be abused , saying away with him , away with him , hang him , t is pitty but he should be stoned , and such like hue and cryes as were heard of old : others of you Seers may be ready to call to me scoffingly out of your mount Sier , watchman what of the night ? watchman what of the night ? but whether you will hear , or whether you will forbear , I tell you Sirs the morning cometh , and also your dead night , therefore if you will enquire , enquire quickly , return , and come to the truth , before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you : or , if it may not be said , as of old it was that many of the Priests were obedient unto the faith , yet Oh that many of your people would know in their day the things that make for their peace , before they be hid from their eyes , and partake no more of your sins , least they partake of your plagues : but if IIIezebel and her lovers will lie in bed together , and not repent , when God gives them space to repent of their fornications ; then me thinks I hear a noise among them , as of those that are in hellish tribulation yelling out from beneath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Alas , Alas , whilst from above a voice of much people in heaven saying , Hallelujah . Hallelujah for now our Lord will raign , And judge that Scarlet WWWhore , who still doth fain Her self to be Christs Spouse , and so maintain Her self a Qeen , the world her slaves in chain . Though , like a Quean , she doth the whole earth stain Wi●h Whoredomes , and Saints blood , whom she hath slain : Three PPParts , three CCCrowns , three HHHeads of subtle brain , A TTTripple TTTribe Rides Christndom , t is plain : And , like Hells three mouth'd Monster , stands to strain Souls that scape thence , and bark them back again : Yet , when t is told , this Minx , this whore in grain Frowns , Frets , Hates , Teares , Fumes , Threats , Storms , Fomes amain : But ( IIIezebel ) wo to thy house , refrain Thy pride , thy lies , thy wrath , like that of Cain , Thy filth , thy self , thy greediness of gain , Else , as thy mirth hath been , shall be thy pain : This is told to , and by me and Iohn Brain , Both being once of thine one children twain : Thou seest , yet wilt not see this , but remain Silent , least friends turn foes , and thee disdain ; But some must shew 't ( or else they see 't in vain ) Through England , Scotland , Italy , France , and Spain . Amen Hallelujah . * TTTripartita Tribus , Tribulaes ▪ Tribulusque Triunus ; Discipulis Christi , Triplexque Tricepsque Tyrannus ; Trico Tricornis ; Trifurcifer atque Triformis ; Tristificus Sanctis , toti Ter damnifer Orbi , Ter decimas sapiens , capiens , rapiensque Triarchus ; Reges ipsa regens ipsos , super omne triumphans , Te credens ( proh vana fides ! ) genus esse deorum ; RRRoma O RRRoma , Tibi mulier formosa videris , Attamenes MMMeretrix , vix ( heu ) pendenda Triuncis ; Viribus ipsa tuis te perdis , quo peritura es Tempus adest , aderitque brevi tibi Terminus ipse . Dixi haud magis malus Piscator ac tu , ac tui ( O SSSacerdos ) estis Pessimi Pisces , qui , nisi resipiscamini , Reiiciemini in eternum Mat. 13 48. In Domino viz. via Domini Salvetote . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A39566-e1810 * Witnes the Letter sent to me , in the name of more , from from one of the opponents ; which , in fuller satisfaction concerning my call to this work , is extant at the end of this Epistle . * In which sad winter visitation I may not but take notice here , in satisfaction to the deluded world , how miserably I was misreported to have met the Divel in a field , to have been out of my wits , and senses , stark mad , bound down in my bed , to have renounced , and that with raging , that way of the Gospel , which , throw Gods goodnesse , I stand fast in to this hour , of all which not the least Jota is true , and this too not onely by much people , but in part also by such of the Priesthood , as lived neer enough to me to have given truer intelligence , had they , or their Earwigs been either of them any better then they should be . * Dr. Featley , Dr. Holmes ▪ Mr Marshall . Mr Bayly . Mr Blake . Mr Cotton . M Cobbet . Mr Cooke . Mr , Symson of Smardens soveraign preservative against Anabaptism . Mr. Baxters Plain Scripture proofs . Notes for div A39566-e2590 * Whose ● words in his return to mine are these viz. as for that most reverend Clergy , whom in general you spatter with so much dirt , with what fingers a blind man may discern , I shall leave them to vindicate themselves , and their profession from such immerited obloquiest Notes for div A39566-e6170 Expedias pers●ta co suum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 picasque doce as verba nestra canari . That 's the dreadfull phrase whereby you also term your selves ghostly fathers ( to awe poor ignorants into the greater observation of you and yours ) express the holy spirit , else the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 might be Englisht by the word spirit at all times , as well as some , both in translations , treatises , and discourses . Notes for div A39566-e32740 b Dr. Blechenden . c Mrs. Chute ( as she was then cal'd ) now M●s. Dean d Habent artificium quo prius persuadent , quam docent , veritas autem docendo suadet , non suadendo docet . Tertull. as cited by your quondam friend Mr. G. C. in his second letter to me . e Dr. Austin and Dr. Blechenden . Notes for div A39566-e46260 e Infans of non fans 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . f See Mr. Blake in birth priviledge p. 5.11 . g P. 87 , 88. of the way of the Church in N. England . 1 Cor , 10.1 , 2. 1. Argum. h Featleys dip . dipt p. 178. 2. Argum. i See Mr. Baxter p. 109 297.298 . k See Mr. Blake p. 4. 3 Argum. m p. 9. of his grounds and ends of baptizing children . n p. 35.36 . of his grounds and ends &c. o p. 58. of his animad . on Mr. Tombes Exercit. p p. 63. of the same book . q Demonstratio est ex prioribus , notioribus , et causis . r See Pareus p. 357. and Kekerman System . log . p. 12. tignum est quod sei●lum sensui , et preter se aliquid animo ostendit . or R●s● preter speciem , quam i●ger● sensibus , ali●d asiquid saciens incognitionem venire . Taia enim debent esse , ●t res invisibile● significent , ●i enim debent esse adminicula fidei , oportet percipi externo sensu ▪ quo movetur sensus internus , quod enim non vides non est tibi signum , qui facit signum invisibile , implicat contradictionem et facit signum non signum : res sunt invisibiles non signa , alioqui signa non possent significare res , multo minus confirmare , quia incertum confirmaretur per aeque ince●tum , hinc veteres sacramentum ita definiunt sacramentum est signum visibile invisibilis gratiae . p. 212.213 . of his reply to Mr. Tombs . s Privatio sacramenti non damnat ●i non accedat contemptus , christus non adimi● sal●●em eis , quibus adimi●●r baptismus . t Quantum damni invexerit dogma illed , male expos●●um , baptisma esse de necessitate ●al●●is , pauci animadvert●nt : Ideoque minus sibi cavent , nam ubi inval●it opinio perditos esse omnes , quibus aqu● tingi non contigit , nostra conditio de●enor est quam vereris populi , quasi restrictior esser Dei g●●●ia quam sub lege , venisse enim Christus censebitur non ad implen●as promissiones sed abolendas , quando promissio , q●ae ●un● ante oct●vum diem , saluti confe●endae per se erat satis effi●●x , nunc absquo signi adminiculo rata non esse● . Non arceri a regno caelo rum infances , quibus è prae senti vita migrate continget , antequam aqua mergi d●tum fuerit , atqui jam vi sum est fieri nou levē injuriam dei saederi , nisi in eo acquiescimus , ●csi per se infirmum esset , q●um ejus effectus neque a baptismo , neque ab ollis acestionibus pendeat . Notes for div A39566-e106310 * ubi vides ibi fides . where we see it is there we say it is . nati Discipuli sacti nati Eunuchi cas●rati x p 37. to Mr. Tombs . y p. 120 , 121. of his Animadv . on M. To. Exercit. Non cum Iesu Itis qui Itis cum Iesuitis . Reason . Reasonless . Reason : Reasonless . Reason . Reasonless , Reason . Reasonless . Reason . Reasonless . Reason . Reasonlesse . Reason . Reasonlesse . Reason . Reasonlesse . Notes for div A39566-e137170 a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . a In eundem in quem nostra nunc intendunt Scopum , et vetera illa spectarunt , nempe , ut ad Christum di●igerent , & pene manu ducerent , aut ipsum potius ceu imagines representarent , ac cognoscendum proferrent , b Eam promionem in evangelio datam per sacramenta nobis magis declarat Deus , nempe per analogiam signorum cum rebus , quae per ea significantur , sicut similitudo declarat id , cujus est similitudo , haec enim quando intelligitur , etiam id cujus est similitudo fit perspicuum , et quidem magis quam fine similitudine , et ut vera similitudo non intelligitur , nisi analogia similitudinis intellegatur , ita nec sacramenta nisi Analogia signorum et rerum intellegatur : hoc sensu Apologia Augustanae confessionis aliquoties sacramenta vocat picturas . x See legh . crit . sac . p. 76.77 . where he ore and ore again confesses , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●ignifies to dip plunge under water &c. primarily , and properly , p. 76. it signifieth primarily such a kind of washing as is u●ed in Bucks , where linnen is plunged or dipt . Beza neque vero 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 significat lavare , nisi a cōsequenti , nam proprie declarat tingendi causa mergere . also p. 77. the native & proper signification of it is to dip into water or plunge under water , Joh , 3.22 , 23. Mat. 3.16 . tanquam ad tingendū mergo Causab . immergo , intingo , abluo , Bucan . mergo , et tingo Bullinger , proprie significat immergo , submergo , obruo aquâ Zanchius , videtur copiam , abundantiam , perfectam quandam perfusionem denotare Are● . Notes for div A39566-e185280 a witnes these words received in a late letter from two Gentlemen of Chichester viz. SIR , The occasion of these lines is the result of a late conference viz. to desire your grounds & arguments ( in wriing ) for the continuance of water-baptism , & what you conceive required to evidence a right administrator and subject thereof . Sir our end herein ( if we know our own hearts ) is to be assured of the mind of the Lord Christ touching that ordinance , and our duty therein , that we may walk conformably to his will &c. a Acts. 3.22 . b Is. 55.4 . * for ●o Mark records the commission where● . Mat●thewes meaning is much explaind Mar. 16.15.16 . Go ye out into all the world , and preach the gospel to every creature , he that believeth and is baptizd shall be saved &c. Argu. 1. d For these I speake to now and not to such as are shy of the use of Christs ordinances on an other account viz. a wretched conceit of such worth and weightinesse in them , that no men in the world are now found fit to meddle with them , or are admitted by Christ to be administrators of them , for both these wayes doth the devil deceive men by to erre from the plain way of Christs truth . e 1 Cor. 1.18 . Rom. 1.16 . f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Cor. 1..1.25 Argu. 2. f Act. 20.27 g Mat. 21.25 h Luk 7.29.30 Argum. 3. g Mat. 5.19 h Luke 16.10 . h Rom. 14.2.5 . i 1 Cor. 7.27 28. k Act. 8.4 . l Act. 8 3● . m Act. 8.12 . n Act. 8.14.10 36.18 11. o Act. 9.6 p Act. 22.10 ▪ q Act. 10.6 . r Act. 10.33.48 s Rom. 6.34 . t Gal. 3.26.27 v Act. 12.1 , 2 , 3 . 4.&c . x Col. ●2 . 12 . r Act. 16.15.22.23 . Arg. 4. Arg. 5. * for God , whose waies limit us , not himself was somtimes better then his word , and anticipated the disciples obedience in these things so as to give his spirit beyond even Peters expectation to persons before baptized and prayed for , yet did not this disingage them from doing that outward service , but the more ingage them to be baptized Act. 10.45.46.47.48 . h for its most certain that this was the will of Christ , and tendred to all the world as so , & so to stand in all ages & generation● of it to the end , yea a special part of his testament as well as preaching , faith repentance , prayer and the rest , and that since as well as before the Testators death , Mat. 28.18.19.20 . Act. 2.39.8.12.16.10.47 48.16.15.33.18 8.19 5.22.16 . after which death of the Testator no man ever knew so much as a mans testament altered or disanul'd in one tittle of it , without grosse & palpable injury to the Testator . x Mar. 1.4 . y in which juncture of time he spake nothing to his discip●es by way of commandement or otherwise ▪ but such things as pertained to the Kingdom of God , and to his Church and Gospel Act. 1.2.3 . * See Mar. 1.1 , 2 , 3 , 4. the beginning of the Gospel of Christ , Ioh. did baptize in the wildernesse , and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins . * in his book called Some glimps of that bright and morning starr . a Mat. 24.34 . Mar. 13.30 . Luk. 21.32 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this generation or age ( meaning wherein we see the signs of Christs coming ) will no passe or be ended before all be fulfilled and ● he come . b Eph. 3 2. speaking of ages divisim even all the several ages to the very end of time , and age it self to the end of all times he saies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to all ages of the world ▪ or to all ages of time of times , even for ever , c which how neer kin it is too to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that signifieth semper i , e. alwaies , every smarterer in Greek may understand . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . * John did no miracle yet what he spake was true , nor were any held excused that believed not his baptism to be of heaven , but those are said ●e reject the councel of God against themselves that were not baptized of him . * as if Christ had administrations in force but had made no provision of administrators whereby they might be at all dispensed . * which may serve to the satisfaction of such as think that after the long cessation of tune baptism that hath been in the world there must be an utter omission , and no resurrection of it again for ever because none but unbaptized persons to begin it , for Iohn himself the greatest administrator of water baptism that ever was , ei●her was not baptized himself at all ▪ or else by ●ome that were never baptized , or else by some of those which himself had first baptized , which still makes the case the same , and evidences that unbaptized persons may possibly be right administrators , and that the non baptization of the person that does it nulls not the dispensation of it to believers . * As Christ also doth Mar. 16.16 . saying he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved : for true , he that believeth not , whether he be baptized or no , shall be damned . * 1 Pet. 4.11 . * for he that hearkneth not to his voice in all things whatever he saith shall be cut off from among his people Act. 3.22 , ●3 . Major . Minor. * for no man can of himselfe by name prove expresly that he shall be save ( the Scripture promising life to neither Peter nor Paul by name , save as they were believers ) but onely by an inference from the Scripture ; and in the ballance of right reason , comparing Scripture with Scripture , or by arguing in some such manner out of it viz. he that believeth and is baptized , continuing in that his faith and obedience till death , shall be saved , Mark 16.16 . Rom. 2.7 . Heb. 10.35.38 . but I believe and am baptized ; and continue in that faith , and G●d assisting will never draw back , Ergo I shall be saved . No condemnation to them that walk not after the flesh , but after the spirit , so dying , but I walk not after the flesh , but after the spirit . Ergo so doing , so dying , there 's no condemnation to me , and so ( consequently still ) I shall be saved , Rom. 8.1 . * witnesse a paper newly extant , subscribed with 15. hands , and sent to my self in particular by one of the subscribers , while I am just beginning this very treatise of Anti-ranterism ( which occasions a more distinct handling of this point of laying on of hands then I otherwise intended ) stiled . Questions about laying on of hands ( with the grounds why they are demanded ) lovingly propounded to all those churches of Iesus Christ in London or elsewhere , or to any one member of the body of our Lord , who pleadeth or preacheth for the necessity or usefulnesse of laying on of hands to be practised by all baptized believers . The 2d . query of which is on this wise viz. We desire to be directed by them unto some place of Scripture ( if they know of any ) where our Lord Iesus Christ or any of his Apostles or disciples preached this doctrine viz. that all baptized believers ought to practise or submit unto laying on of hands . * Heb. 5.12.6.1 , 2. Act. 19 6. Act. 8.12.15.16 , 17. Act. 2.40 , 42. * because many blame and reprove baptized believers because they do not practise , submit to , or come under laying on of hands . Therefore we desire to know of them , if they can tell of any of the servants of Christ , that ever did reprove or blame any sort of people , whether baptized or not , because laying on of hands was not practised , or submitted to by them . * As if women were not under the promise of the holy spirit , repenting believing , and being baptized , as well as men : when as Peter saies Acts ● . 39 . to the whole multitude of women as well as men , repent and be baptized , and ye shall receive the holy spirit , for the promise is to you and to your children , and them that are a far off even as many as the Lord shall call : as if John Baptist also did not speak promiscuously to the multitudes of both men and women , and to the women as well as the men whom he baptized , when he said I indeed baptize you with water , but she shall baptize you with the holy spirit : and if baptized believing women be under a promise of being baptizd with the spirit as well as men pro. 1.23 . then why they should not have hands laid on them , and be prayed for that they may receive it as well as the other , according to the promise , he is a wiser man then I am that knowes any reason . Viz. seeing that many draw inferences and deductions , as they call them , from Heb 6.2 . to maintain one laying on of hands onely , and none of them upon the forementioned considerations , neither in the end , purpose or event : Therefore we desire to know whether you judge it a command of our Lord Christ , that any mans inference or deduction should be of a binding form in point of faith and obedience ? and because we have seen some of our dearly beloved brethren in the Lord , to the grief of our hearts much offended at us because we believe not the inferences or deductions , as they call them , Heb. 6.2 Therefore we desire to know of them what they will refer us to as the sure rule to try inferences or deductions by , because the best of men are liable to mistakes ? * witness his reproving and threatning of lost labour to those that so do , Mat. 15.9 . x John. 5 . 30.8.16.17.12● 49.50.14.31 * Act. 1.1.2 3.10.33 . * Act. 2.42 . 1 Cor. 14.37 . Eph. 2.20 . Heb. 6.1 . 2 Pet. 3.2 . Jude 17. * For there was a certain form of Christs doctrine delivered by the Apostles to persons as from him , which they were to obey , and after obedience unto which ( and not before ) they were counted unto Christ , as now his servants , which till they had obeyed they were counted none of his , but unto sin , as its servants , standing in several particulars , whereof its most evident that water baptism was one ( for obedience in baptism , and obedience to that form of doctrine delivered are both urged as arguments and ingagements to the Romans now to reckon on themselves , or from thenceforth , i. e. their obedience thereunto as ( in foro dei , hominum , et ecclesiae ) Christs servants that had formally owned him ) and whether the rest viz faith , repentance , laying on of hands , belief of a resurrection and judgement , which are Heb. 6. all called the foundation which was at first to be laid altogether with baptism , called by the name of the form of doctrine Rom. 6.17 . which was at first to be obeyed by every beginner in Christs school , is worth our serious considerations . * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb. 6.1 . * & so the Enquirers seem to me to do while they teach men that as yet have not , that they need or ought not to submit to prayer and laying the holy spirit , and unteach such again as have been targht it , till they disown that first principle of the doctrine of Christ after they had once , even practically owned it . * who would ●ain be our own carvers , and either have such visible gifts , as some call them , as he was pleased to give them , or else we will be blind , and not see , not believe , though we see it , that he gives any gifts of his spirit now at all ; * John 14.17 28. Gal. 5. 17. John 16.13 . R m. 8.13 . 1 Cor. 2.12 1 Cor. 12.7 . Eph. 4.11 . Eph. 4.30 . a Eph. 1.13 . b Act. 2.39.40 . c Prov. 1.23 . Joh. 7.38 , 39. Luke 11.13 . Act 5.35 . * Iohn did no miracle but all the the things which Iohn spake of this man are true . Joh. 10.41 . Iohn 7.48 Except ye see signs and wonders ye will not believe . Iohn 20.29 . Thomas because thou hast seen thou hast believed , but blessed are they that have not seen and yet believed . Herod hoped to have seen some miracle done by Christ , but he would not so much as answer him , Luke 23.8.9 . He did not many mighty work there , because of their unbelief Mat. 13.5 . Lord why could not we cast him out , Iesus said because of your unbelief . ● Joh. 1.16 . ●●f his fulaes we have ●ll received grace for grace Iohn 16.7.13 . 2. Cor. 13.14 . the communion of the spirit be with you all : Gal. 5.22 . 2 Cor. 5.5 . God who hath given us the earnest of his spirit . Ephes. 1.33.14 . in whom after ye believed ye were sealed with the holy spirit of promise , which is the earnest of our inheritance &c. whereby you are sealed to the day of redemption Ephes. 4.30 . * if any doubt it ( as some do , and say prophesy is a gift of speaking infallibly by revelation from God , as t is spoken of 1 Cor. 14.1 . the 2.3.4.5 . verses of the same chapter confute him , where prophecy , as it is determined to be a far more eminent and profitable gift , and greater and more desirable then tongues , which is so talkt on , so it is defined to be no other then speaking to exhorration , edification and comfort ; and also v. 31.32.33 . where it s said , you may all prophecy one by one , and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets , which shewes t was no gift of speaking infallibly , but only preaching , because it s supposed that they may be out , and erre in their prophecy , and must submit to correction , in case they do , from the other prophets : Obj. Ans. Ob. Ans. * which I much marvel at sith this objection supposes a continuation , or resurrection of that same ordinance of laying on of hands in the last daies , after a whiles waiting for administrators : but the questions subscribed to , are all or most of them such as suppose the Enquirers to be much in the dark and in doubt about it , what kind of laying on of hands that is , that 's called a doctrine of Christ Heb. 6.1 . whether ever such a thing was , or is ever to be dispensed to all baptized believers &c. as if they could not tell almost whether there be , at least appointed by Christ , such a manner of administration . * viz. Seeing we are denied communion by some of those Churches , or by some members thereof , who hold the necessity of all baptized believers to practise , submit to , or come under the laying on of hands . Therefore we desire them to acquaint us what we are commanded to say , or do , that we may be found faithful in that point ; or otherwise , to be discovered disobedient unto a command by the Word of God , which is the onely director here , and that which shall be our judge at the last day . * which is the wise query of some also , and as learned a question as if one should ask , whether at the supper we must put the elements to our mouths with the right hand or the left ? or in baptism ask , how the baptizer must handle the person baptized , and where he must take hold on him , when he dips him ? and if he have not expresse Scripture concerning such nicities and trifles as these , suspend the dispensation of both the supper & baptism , because Christ is somwhat short in his word , not expressing punctually enough , how his ordinances shall be dispensed , nor what is to be said and done by persons at the doing of them , so distinctly as they would have him . But foolish and unlearned questions avoid knowing that they do gender strises 2 Tim. 2.23 . p Viz. Seeing there be many that do desire baptized believers to require that hands should be laid on them . Therefore we desire of them to shew us some place of Scripture ( if they know of any ) that doth expresse such a behaviour either of the administrator , or the person on whom hands were laid . * ( for such a behaviour as to reprove their backwardnesse , and summon men to shew their forwardnesse to own Christs wayes may become any administrator whatsoever Act. 22.16 . ) * Viz. Seeing many plead laying on of hands to be practised or submitted unto as a foundation , principle , or a beginning doctrine of Christ and that by all baptized believers . Therefore we desire to know , if any of them can inform us , which of all these layings on of hands forementioned is called by Christ , or his Apostles the foundation , principle , or beginning doctrine , by some text in Scripture . * if it be not somewhat an improper phrase to stile wicked men in their wrathful and cruel handlings of the Saints Administrators of any doctrine of Christ that is stiled imposition of hands , as to me it seems to be , unlesse wee l allow the name of an Administrator also to the devil himself , when he tempts the Saints , and puts forth his hands against them to smite them with any mischiefs in either body or spirit , as by Gods permission he did Job , Job 1.12 . Job 2.6.7 . * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Luke 21 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act 5 , 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act 8 17 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act 19.6 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act 13.3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 6 ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 〈◊〉 4 ▪ 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb. ● 2. * Viz Seeing that Heb 6.2 . speaks of the laying on of hands as plural , as the doctrine of baptisms , and doth not speak of any one laying on of hands fore-mentioned particularly , nor of any other by distinction , neither of any end , purpose , or event . Therefore we desire to know what safety it is for any man to conclude that Heb. 6.2 . is meant but of one of them onely . † See Mr Blackwoods last book newly extant even whilest I am writing to you on this subject stiled a soul-searching catechism p. 58 in p. 54.55.56.57.58.59 . of which he treats totally of this subject . * Viz. Mr. Cotton & Dr. Holm● , who ( as is shewed above in the 139 , 140 , 141. pages of this very volume I am yet in hand with ) borrowes Cottons and Calvins reading out of Antiquity concerning the practise of imposition of hands to all grown persons before admission to Church-fellowship wherby to prove infant-baptism , which thereby he rather breaks the neck of . * Viz. Mr. Cotton & Dr. Holm● , who ( as is shewed above in the 139 , 140 , 141. pages of this very volume I am yet in hand with ) borrowes Cottons and Calvins reading out of Antiquity concerning the practise of imposition of hands to all grown persons before admission to Church-fellowship wherby to prove infant-baptism , which thereby he rather breaks the neck of . * consisting of 3 sorts of Christ'n creatures , under a 3 sold CCClergy viz. papal , prelatical , presbyterian . * yet some Ranters are not ashamed to say they are Christ , and God , and there is no other God then they , and what 's in them , and such like blasphemies , whereby they declare themselves to be that generation , that are to rise in the latter daies , and make the man of sin , even that wicked one that shall exalt himself above all that 's called God , saying of himself he is God , given over to strong delusion to believe lies , that they may be damned , because not receiving the love of the truth , that they might be saved , whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming 2 Thess. 2. denying the Lord that bought them , and bringing on themselves swift destruction . 2 Pet. 2.2 . * Viz. touching of dead bodies Num. 5.2 . eating or touching the carcases of any forbidden fishes , birds , or beasts Lev. 11.24.31 . diseases as the leprosie , Lev. 13.8 . running of issues Levit. 15.2 . and such like . * for if he that despised Moses law died without mercy , of how much sorer punishment shall he be thought worthy , that hath troden under foot the son of God , Heb. 10.29 . therefore we had need to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard , least at any time we let them slip , for if the word spoken by angels was sure and stedfast , and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward , how shall we escape , if we neglect so great salvation , which at first began to be spoken by the Lord , and was after confirmed to us by them that heard him , Heb. 2.1.2.3 ▪ whosoever shall be ashamed of me or my words , of him will I be ashamed when I come in the kingdome of my father with my holy angels , Mark. 8.38 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . * as indeed I find thee to be of the whole Scripture , which though Paul bids Timothy give attendance to the reading of 1 Tim. 4.13 . 2 Tim. 3.15.16.17 . yet thou hast left off to read , disswading others also from the reading of it , as unprofitable , as no other then the writings and inventions of men , to keep the world in awe , so that it cannot come to enjoy that liberty ( alias license for lewdnesse and fleshly lusts , which thou promisest , and pleadest for ) and that makes thee to be such a weather cock , such a well without water , such a wandring star as thou art , such a cloud tost to and fro with a tempest , because thou hast no steady rule to steer by , no whither goest thou to talke with , or to take heed to , to recall , or to fix thee to any one point , but onely the whifling , multifarious fancies , and foolish figments of thy own aiery brain , and unconstant spirit . * Isa ▪ 8.13 , 14. Eze. 11.16 . 1 Pet. 3.20 , 21 * Heb. 10.25 . Notes for div A39566-e200900 * all which will fall to the share of the silken snapsack to carry in the end . * See how Mr. Baxter defines him out of Bullinger p. 259. Hereticum cum dico intelligosectarum Authorem qui ecclesiam scindi● &c. when I talk of an Heretick I mean an Author of Sects , who rendeth the Church , who pertinaciously proceedeth by false and erroneous doctrine to infring● & trouble the unity of the Church , and out of Viguerios , Hereticus est qui relicta fide et ecclesiae doctrina alicujus temporalis commodi gratia , et maxime gloriae falsas et novas opiniones gignit , vel sequitur , ut vel fi● maneat ab ecclesia divisus . * such words as none of you parrish PPPriests in CCChrist'ndome do , can or ever did preach in , for if your people Ask the Priest what they must do , you say repent , but be not baptized , yea take heed every one of you that at any hand you be not baptized . * Dr. Featley p. 161. * For Tent makers such as Paul was to make the Gospel chargeless , you are mostly too proud to be . † Sine qua Christianismus non constat , saith Calvin . * Calvin inst . lib 4. c 2. s. 1. verbi e● sacramentotum Ministerium nobis perpetua tessera digno scendae ecclesiae . * divsion , * which whether in the Antitype it be not that woman the CCClergy , by whom the Kings of the earth have bin ( as Ahab by the other ) stirred up to all mischief against the the truth , may be seen mo●e clearly Rev. 17. * witness the case of Iohn Sawtrey , the first English Martyr , of whom we read thus , viz. that Arundel Archbishop of Canterbury 1399 first denouncing him an Heretick , 2 in the name of all his fellow brethren the Bishops , and of the whole Clergy condemning & digrading him from his priestly orders , from all his priestly honors , & in token therof taking from him , as he was a Priest , the patent , and chalice , the authority of saying Masse , the casul and vestment ; as a Deacon , the book of the New Testament ; as a Subdeacon , the Albe , and Maniple ; as an Acolite , the Candlestick and taper ; as an Exorcist the book of Conjuration ; as a Reader the book of the Church Legend [ of lies ] as Sexton the keyes of Church door , and surplice ; and then rasing his crown , and putting the cap of a lay prrson on his head , delivers him up to the secular power , saying pray be favourable to him , who after burns him ( being called on by the Bishops ) in the City of London . * Whether the magistrate be the minister of Christ , as God onley , or as Mediatour also , I mean God man ? is a question , about which I find some fill the world with a world of confusion ; viz. Mr. Gelaspie and Mr. Rutherford , who are together by the ears about it ; and Mr. Baxter also , who makes much more ado then needs p. 228. &c. to prove that Christ exerciseth some of his Government , as Mediator , by Ministers , and some by Magistrates , by which if he mean that Magistrates are officers in Christs Church , of Christs appointment , I pitty his blindness , when I read Eph. 4. where its shewed what officers Christ sets in his Church , for the edifying and establishing thereof : if he mean that the Magistrate is Christs officer , and ordinance to the worldward , for the Government of it under him , and of the Church too ( as t is a part of the world , so far as he doth yet administer in the world , and judge it ) I will not greatly deny that , howbeit that he ( as man ) yet judgeth the world , and ( as Mediatour ) governs it , as once he is to do , by appointment from the father , Acts 17.31 , at his appearing & his kingdome 2 Tim. 4.1 . when he shall put that power in full execution , for which he hath now but the commission , when he shall return personally to set up , and rule in that Kingdome , which he is now gon to heaven to receive , Luke 19.11.12.15 . &c. when the Prince of this world , ( for so Christ himself , who is Prince of the world to come , is pleased to call the devill now John 14.30 . who is dominus fac totum here by permission , and rules over Kings , Princes and People by the Beast , and whore that rides it , Rev. 17. to whom he hath given his seat , power , and great Authority Rev. 13.2 . ) shall once be judged , and bound up in the bottomlesse pit from domineering over , and deceiving the Nations any more , that Christ I say yet judges the world as once he is to do , when the Kingdome appointed by the Father to him in reward of his for them , and by him to his disciples in reward of their sufferings for him Luke 22.28 . is come , this I utterly deny ; nay rather he is yet in his Saints an underling to the civil powers ; the miserable ignorance of which time wherein Christ shall take unto himself his great power and reign , and be de facto , as he was de jure before , King of Kings , and Lord of Lords , makes the Divines so dote as to Interpret that place Isa. 49.23 . of Kings being nursing fathers , and Queens nursing mothers , and bowing down , and licking the dust of the Churches feet , and a hundred more as fulfilled now , in this his day of small things , in this his personal absence , which , when the divel is blind at least , and bolted up in the bottomless pit Rev. 20. they l surely see are not in esse actuali till then ; and to suppose Magistrates to be now Christs chief Church officers Supremely under him to rule in it ; when as , were they not already blind themselves , they could not but see it to be contrary unto truth , for women may be Magistrates , but not Church Ministers , and may be Supreme in authority in a State , as Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth , but are bid to be under obedience , and fordid in Church matters so much as to speak , much more to usurp authority in the Church , 1 Tim. 2.11.12 . 1 Cor. 14.34.35 . viz. in refusing to be judge , in matters of faith and religion . * For Custos et vindex ut ciusque tabulae under the Gospel ▪ because it was sounder , that typical standing of the Law , is but a tale , and a trick of our Priests whereby to curry ●avour with their princes : the truth is that whole Jewish State ( which was also a Church as no one whole nation under heaven now is ) was a type and both the Kingly , Priestly and Prophetical office that then headed that Church , were typical of that tripple true head of the Gospel Israel , Christ Jesus , and are no more to be drawn in as an example so as to argue more warrantably from the Kings then to the civil Rulers now then from the High-PriestHood to the Popedome . * my Petition to the powers on behalf of the Church is that it may have as much peace , and as little preferment as they please , for ever Cum Ecclesia peperit divitias , filia devoravit matrem . y Two spritualties , whereof ( as bad as the first is ) the latter will be more sensuall then the former , having not the Spirit Jude 17. though pretending to it more supremely then the other , under which last the devil now acts , as under a new vizard , to the deceiving of people from the way of truth , perceiving his old vizard worn so thin , that all men begin now to see through it . * Luk. 9.53.54 55. * Witness the Iesuites , that may kil Kings if Hereticks , & the Northen presbitery , that may lawfully fight England , if it receive not their directory : and the Episcopal war against the State : * So Iulius the second , who seeing himself vanquisht , ●hrew away Saint Peters keyes , into the River Tyber , protesting he would thence forth help himself with S Pauls sword : * The contrary to which where ere t is well may men submit out of fear till they can help themselves , but never out of love while the world stands , for conscience is a tender thing , and though but a worm , yet if trod upon wil turn again , * Howbeit they shall never want flatterers to perswade them that they are . Abj. Ans. * Vid. Tho. Beacons Reliques of Rome , set forth cum privilegio 1563. Pope Servitius ordained that Hereticks should be banisht An. 588. fol. 214. Pope Pelagius the first , that all Hereticks and Schismaticks should be put to death by the secular power , provided that the Bishops in their spiritual courts do first prosecute , convict and condemn them for Hereticks , and then commit them to the temporal Magistrate to dispatch them out of the way by fire , sword or halter , for they say as the chief priests to Pilate , it is not lawful for us to put any to death . In the councel of Lateran by Innocent the third , 2 Patriarchs 70 Arch-bishops , 400 Bishops , twelve Abbots , 800 Priests , the Legates of the Greek and Roman Empire , the Embassadors of Spain , Jerusalem , France , England , Cyprus , it was decreed that all Hereticks and so many as should in any point resist the Catholique faith should be condemned , that the secular power of what degree soever should be compelled openly to swear for the defence of the Catholique faith , and to the utmost of their power to root out and destroy in their kingdomes , all such persons as the Catholique Church should condemn for Hereticks , and if any King should be a Heretick , or defender of them , and not reform within a year , then his subjects should be absolved by the Pope from yielding any further subjection or obedience to him , or keeping any fidelity with him , and so t was in the case of John here in England , who resigned to the Popes Legate his Crown , kissing his knee as he came into England ( which John was after poisoned by a Monk , who having his pardon from the Pope , poisoned himself first , to poison the King ) and also that the Pope may give that land to Catholiques to possesse peaceably and without contradiction , all Hereticks being rooted out of it . Obj. Ans. * 1 Sam 5.24 * which he hath more faith then I that believes they ever will for surely the CCClergies Win all or lose all will pull them down at last . * 2 Es. 15.5 . to the 12.49 . to 57. Rev. 11.10.6.19.2 . * for howbeit it was the Roman civil power in Potius Pilate passing sentence , yet it was the Priestly malice that caused him to be crucified , or else Pilate had released him : & so its Princely power , but PPPriestly malice crying out crucifie him , crucifie him , that hath caused him under the Gospel be crucified in his truth , and Saints , or else many of the civil Powers would release him . * Rom. 13.1 . 1 Pet. 2.13 . Magistrates are called the ordinance of God as the materiality of the thing we call government is of him , the ordinance of man as to the particular form of government viz. whether it shall be by Kings , Parlia . &c. and also the particular persons that shall execute that form is altogether in choice of the people . * Act. 18.12.13.14 . * Se supra p. 279. * For that name [ Clergy ] however by themselves improperly impropriated to themselves , as if they onely were the [ heritage ] of God , for that 's the plain English of that Anglico-greek word [ Clergy ] yet in plain truth pertains properly to all Christs people , and that in contradistinction too from the Ministry , for the spirit speaking of the Elders and Pastors of the Church , charges them not to Lord it over the heritage , i. e. in other location not to domineer over the Clergy 1 Pet. 5.3 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. we see therefore God calls the flock , and not the Sheepheards ( muchlesse the Sheepshearers ) by the name of Clergy ; but the Pope ( as if he had projected purposely to betheeve Gods people out of all their priviledges , and rights , leaves them not so much as their own proper name to be known by , but bestows the name of [ Clergy ] upon the Creatures of his own creating , and leaves them the name of Laicks in its stead , telling them , when they begin to charge his CCClergy with impropriation of preaching , and pay to themselves , that they are but a Clergy of Laicks , see Featleys Epistle , but to say the truth excepting some few of his sons of the Episcopal and Presbyterian CClergy ( that are come from him two wayes , viz. by dissent , and descent ) who may be honester , and wiser then the rest ( and yet are not so wi●e as to know their own father ) the rest are mostly A CCClergy of Lazicks , or lazy locusts : In like manner hath he ingrost other titles to himself , and his CCClergy , all which the Scripture gives to all Christs people , as namely that of Spiritual men , as if all the world were but Natural , at least but Temporal men besides themselves , thus the Bishops were called Lords Spiritual , and other Lords , Lords Temporal : so that of Priests , see the book of Common-prayer , and of ordination of Priests and Deacons , whereas these are titles afforded by the spirit to all the Saints of God as well as some . 1 Cor. 3.15 . 1 Pet. 2.9 . Rev. 1.6.5.10 . yet I call them by these names , because these are now the most common names , whereby they are known , or else properly I cannot call them by these , nor by any other names , whereby they commonly call themselves : I cannot call them the Spiritualty , for not one of many of them hath any Spiritualnesse in him : I cannot call them Divines , for they are rather Humanes , if they have their due , whilst they teach Gods fear after mens precepts , and for doctrines the Traditions of men : I cannot call them the Tribe of Levi , for Levi though he took Tith according to the Law , whereof he was the Priest , in the loines of Abraham paid Tithes to the person of that high Priest that we are under , viz. Melchizedeck , or the King of Righteousnesse Christ Iesus , but these are so far from paying Tithes to Christ , that they most grievously gripe his people , if they pay it not to them : I cannot call them Ministers , i. e. servants of Christ , & of the Church , for they are rather Lords and Masters over his heritage , unlesse Servus Servorum , and Dominus Dominorum may stand together : I cannot call them Pastors , or Shepheards , till I can own their Parishes for Christs Sheep , for if we denominate them by the General temper of their people , they profess to stand Pastors too , they seem to be Swinheards rather by their people swallowing in the mire : I cannot call them Presbyters , or Elders though some of them be Seniores annis , unlesse they were Saniores Animis then they are , for they are not yet sound , nor Orthodox in either their judgements , doctrine or practise , so long as they are against the truest baptism , and abide unbaptized : I cannot call them Preachers of the Gospel , for they preach down that Gospel , which was at first preached , concerning Christs dying for the sins of the whole world : I cannot call them Bishops or Overseers of Christs flock in the spirits sense i. e. in respect of their care to take heed to , or feed it , but Overseers in another sense rather I may properly stile them , for verily Christs flock is so little and low , poor and plain , mean and base , hated and dispised , and themselves so lofty and high minded , that as not many noble , and mighty , so few or none of these wise men after the flesh can stoop or look so low as it is , and so ( for the most part ) they oversee it : and lastly if those be the true Clergy and Priests of God , that are obedient to his word , ( as the Scripture saies they are ) the CCClergy need not find fault ( as they do ) with the Mar-priests of these times , for in very deed the CCClergy , PPPriests , and Presbiters have been the truest Priest-biters , Claw-clergies , and Mar-Priests themselves . * Rem enim indignam esse putant &c. saith Calvin Inst. li. 4. c. 11.5.15 . they deem it a disparagement that they should be made to answer in their own personall causes before any civil Magistrate , and suppose both the liberty and dignity of the Church i. e. the Clergy , to ly in an exemption from the common seats of judicature , and their laws : but the Bishops of old , who were otherwise strict enough in pleading the priviledges of the Church , did judge it no disgrace either to themselves or their function to subject themselves to civill powers . * whose work lay mostly in reading service in old time , till the Gospel came again to be p●eached in these latter daies . Act. 19.24 . to 39. * who saw some truth in their daies , wherein t was twilight , but not all that is now to be seen , for though I reverence the men ( as I do every man , that sees truth as far as it shines clearly in his time ) yet Luther left much truth unseen to himself , behind him , and some of Calvins●nstitutions ●nstitutions too are none of Christs . * For verily these Starrs for their light of learning ( as Dr. Featley confesses p. 165.166 . ) have been the Authors , devisers and broachers of Heresies ; yea peruse ( saith he ) if thou please all the antient Heresies listed by Epiphanius , Austin , Philastrius , Alphonsus a castro , Ambrosius de Rusconibus , and others , and therein thou shall find the Ring-leaders great Clerks , and accute Sophisters , whence is that true observation of Tertullian , Philosophi Hereticorum Patriarchae , Philosophers have been the great Grandfathers of Hereticks . Nahum 3. thy crowned are as the locusts O King of Assyria , Apollyon in the Antitype . * Of which chain of succession of Ministry , if but one link fail , or chance to be lost , so that it meets with interruption , you confesse , all your Ministry lies on the ground too , and cannot at any hand be counted valid or raised again : and yet if there was not a breach of that line in the link of Pope Joan ( aliâs Gilberta an English woman born at Lin , who was both literally and mystically the Whore of Rome , and therefore far ( I wot ) from being a true Presbyter , or Minister of Christs Church , in which women are forbid to usurp authority ) then my understanding failes me not a little . * Who by Austin the Monk dispatcht an Ordination hither ( with resolution about infants viz. that in case of necessity they might be baptized ) by which ordination men have ever since bin authorized to ordain here and such as have been ordained to baptize . * For the civil Magistracy may reside in women ( as is also shewed above ) who though by Pope Ioanes example they may yet by Pauls rule they may not usurp authority in the Church . * For now that 's put down also , as to the present session , as every power will be , and that suddenly and with shame , that puts down others for tyranny , covetousness , unrighteousness , self settlement in greatnesse , and delay of justice to poor people that cry for it in these latter daies , and yet succeeds them in the same sins , and in such security as to say , Populus me sibilet , at mihi plaudo Ipsa domi simulac nummos contempler in Arca. * I mean take tith , for you pay none , * of which you have the fift not the tenth , if the husbandmans charges be all considered . * If you were not blind your selves , you would gather thus much from that , viz. that while men are blind they sat under your ministry , but when once they begin clearly to see , they can see no ground to sit under you any longer . * Nicholas the first was ( I think ) the first that prohibited the Clergy marriage , saying that it was more honest to have to do with many women privately then openly to take one wife : Insomuch that a Priest of Placentia being accused to have a wife and children , was deprived of his Benefice : but proving the said woman to be the wife of another man , and his concubine onely , he was again restored Helin p. 183. * That there should be 40000 dipped disciples , at the first beginning of them too , shall be no article of my faith , who find an increase but to a few 1000s of such here in England , under no lesse then seven years talking of this truth , and find men more refusing to be baptized at all in truth , then forward to be baptized ore again : yea in this English Sectarian army of Anabaptists , as it s termed by you Priests , who have a habit of naming all men Anabaptists , whether baptized or no , that are up in lawful armes for the civil rights and liberties of the people , against those Priests and Princes that have destroyed them , t is to be feared there 's not one of an 100 did ever own Christ so far yet , as to be baptized . * Qui intravit ut vulpes , reg navit ut Leo , morieb a●ur ut Canis : came in a like a Fox , reigned like a Lion , & dyed like a Dog. * O monstrous ! is dotage come upon our Doctors now in the hight , that Apollo is the true God with them , and his Oracles , which by Christians were ever counted the Devils , Gods oracles , and the spoiling of his Temple the spoiling and rifling Gods church , and the ruin which ( Machinatione Daemonis say Historians themselves that write it ) fell on them that attempted it the curse of God for this sin of Sacriledge and Robbing God of his due ? so it should seem , for defining Sacriledge to be a robbing of God , a rifling of his Churches , stripping Religion of her neces●ary dresse and decent rites and ceremonies , and asserting that God will curse with strange curses those that are guilty of it , his first instance is the revenging hand of God on Xerxes for medling with the Temple of Appollo . Surely these men who have so high an esteem of the God Appollo , and his Temple , would have had the like of Appollo's Sister Diana the great Goddess of the Ephesians , and her Temple , whom all Asia , and the world worshipped Act. 19.27 . and counted Paul a Sacrilegious fellow in dispising her Magnificence , and turning away people from her worship , as Demetrius did , who got his wealth by her standing , had they been alive at that time : yet this is the Doctor we are sent to for furniture with knowledge of the truth by you Ashford Accountants . * Alias , the Great gawdy building , that was there in as much veneration as Pauls Church in London is , ( for that is the Church with some , whom a stone Church , and wooden Priesthood , pleases better then a spiritual house of living stones , and spiritual ministry in it . * Built by Queen Helena , who ( if you consult the Story ) in no lesse Superstitious Devotion , then they the Vessels of the Temple , did consecrate the Temple it self to the Honor of Christ , Pueri sacer est locus extra meiite . * Alias the holy habitations of the most abominable holy Fryars , who no question fryed in the fire of holy wrath and rage , to see their holy Cloisters and Chappels sacrilegiously prophaned to civil uses , which by them , and their Lady Abbesses were wont to be made use of ( saving their holy Superstitions ) to nothing but uncivil and unclean . * For then by my consent they shall be counted Sacrilegious too , that shall ever happen to be spoilers of the tripple crown So Mr. Bayly , and Mr. Bax● . Featly p. 161. 167. also Featley and Pagits title pages . * Helin p. 161 * See Bay. Ep to the Read. also Feat . in his Epist. to the Read and p. 161. * Sae Featleys Epist. to the Read. * Helin p. 189 * parva est vobis cura linguarum , minor Artium , minima pietatis . were most of you as little learnd , as good , a pealcod shell might make you gown and hood . * Hang out your lights here , your new lights quoth he , scoffingly , who in pride prints himself Capape , Captain generall of all the Presbyterian forces in England , &c. viz. Dr. B. * Sir Henry Wotton . Cice● . 2. de nat deor . 1 Causes . * After the overthrow of the exarchate , the Emperors now neglecting Italy , the Romans began now to be governed by the advice & power of the Popes : Pepi● and his son Charls having overthrown the Lombards gave unto the Popes the Exarchate , Vrbine , Ancona , Spolero , and many other Towns and territories about Rome . Act. 18.3 ▪ 4. Act. 20.33.34.35 . 2 Cor. 11.7 . ad 12. so 12.13.18 . 1 Cor. 4.11 , 12. 1 Thes. 2.9 . 2 Thes. 4.6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. * Witnesse Albert Archbi . of Mentz , who being at the diet at Ausbourge An. 1530. & finding a bible on the the Table , & reading some leaves thereof where by chance he opened it , said , truly I know not what book this is , but this I see it makes all against us : * Magister artis ingenii que largiter venter docuit negatas artifex sequi voces . * 2 Tim. 3.15.16 . * Featly p. 113. 2 Design . 3 Effects . * see the last clause of the first part of the Ash●ord pamphlet p. 11. Mr. Wilson Williamson . * Mat. 15.9 . * Witness Luther himself , who , though he wrote bitterly against indulgences , yet durst not detract ought from the chair of his most holy Father Leo , See an Epistle of his to Pope Leo the 10th . * See Dr. Featleys dippers dipt See Dr. Helins Geography , where speaking of Pope Joan , he calls her both the literal and the mysticall Whore of Babylon . See Dr. Featleys dippers dipt See Dr. Helins Geography , where speaking of Pope Joan , he calls her both the literal and the mysticall Whore of Babylon . * See Rutherfords Presbytery , in the Epistles Dedicatory & to the Reader . * One of the three parts , Rev. 16.19 . of the great City BBBabylon , viz. the Pope and his carnal crue of Clergymen , the Prelate found out , but ( in nostris talpae in alienis linces sumus ) was so pittifully purblind at home that he could never find out a second : the second part of that Babylonish WWWhore , which are the Prelate and his Priesthood , the Presbyter found out , and began to cry out upon them also as an harlot , but , standing so much in his own light that he cannot see himself for himself , and cannot see wood for trees , to this day he cant hit upon the third , but even that also , which is the Presbyterian Clergy , is in Tyranny so like the rest , that the name Babylon will appear upon their foreheads too within a while . * The term Christ used to Peter for his subtle selfishnesse , immediately after he had honored him with the name of Peter Mat. 16. where the actions are Satanical , the reproof cannot be too Satyrical to whom soever . See Brain 's Babels fall . * Nos Rustīci haud cū●ămus quantītătem Syllābō●um .